Worcester Bosch CEO Is Wrong About Heat Pumps. Here Is Why.

[@albertoporras04]

One thing people forget it that victorian terraces are TERRACES! A mid-terrace house ( which of course most are) has another house on each side, which are usually occupied and heated so the temperature delta across the side walls is low, so very little heat loss! Also, most of these houses are longer "back to front" than across the frontage, so over 50% of your external walls are in effect very well insulated. With decent loft insulation and double glazed windows, the effective amount of uninsulated walls is only a small proportion of the total envelope!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

But that was Worcester Bosch CEO said - that terraced houses are the least suitable for heat pumps 🤷‍♂️

[@anonym3017]

there's also the fact that heatpumps can just be installed in parallel and individual ones exist up to 100s of kW of heating power. Meaning that a badly insulated house can either be better insulated. or You just put in a more powerful heatpump.

[@jonasstahl9826]

​@@UrbanPlumbers Who cares what people say they lie all the time specialy sales person, look at what they do and do your own recherche. Like Alberto said, since 50+% of the outside walls are against the neighbors heated house with the same temperature there is no heat loss trough this walls. In average with the unisolated outside walls it is still well isolated.

[@Kris_M]

Looking at this house (1:24) I don't think you get even to 50% shared walls, probably more like 40%. One side is entirely shared but the other one only something like 1/3rd.

[@gavjlewis]

​@@zlmdragon. Yes. Also worth noting that most of that outside wall is usually the kitchen which you generally doesn't need to keep as warm, so less heat loss.

[@michaelmuller1115]

Great video. Same misinformation here in Germany. "You have to insulate your house, you need floor heaters, costs for this are above 150000€" etc. In Germany it's the fossil lobby. My heat pump is running at the first winter with a COP of 5, cost for gas and electricity are similar, 12ct/30ct

[@chriss4949]

WB CEO is bound to talk down ASHP. A turkey is NEVER going to vote for Christmas. Another great vid. Keep them coming

[@Umski]

Spot on metaphor 👍👏

[@over-engineered]

my thoughts exactly

[@geoffaries]

That's not true, Bosch is large German company, bigger than Vaillant and produce products for all markets, they happen to believe that in the UK, hydrogen is a better option, trials are being undertaken in the north of hydrogen boilers.

[@Umski]

@@geoffaries I used to think hydrogen was the future based on the hype - having done my homework, in reality it seems to be a pipe dream - it's been proven that even if green hydrogen could be produced from "spare electricity", it would be far more efficient to just use the electricity to power heat pumps anyway and that's not even to mention other forms of hydrogen that are generated from methane or otherwise and use fossil fuels to heat them 🤦‍♂ the only reason the trials are in place is because someone daft enough has thrown £££££££££ at "making hydrogen happen" - why would Bosch want to miss out on that opportunity? Why would hydrogen be a "better" option in the UK compared to other countries?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@geoffaries and how is that going?

[@euanbegbie]

The major issue is cost! How much was this job, fully installed and commissioned? 10k? 20?

[@Skeletoncrew46and2]

Don't be asking such personal questions!😂. They'll have paid the installation off in 20 years.

[@mowcius]

It is a major issue, but if we keep having plonkers stating it's not the way forward (no matter what the cost is), the economies of scale from volume production and high volume installation will keep prices high. The point here is not whether the cost makes it a good choice, but whether physically heat pumps are a good choice.

[@rogerphelps9939]

There never seems to be an issue of cost when buying a new car. A heat pump is a far better investment than any car.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@mowcius Absolutely right.

[@adrianred236]

@@rogerphelps9939 Ah yes, the only thing in your life you will borrow money (and hence pay interest) to buy but which will loose value from the moment you buy it.

[@kozakmaly]

I'm wondering if we are comparing apples to apples here. 500kwh of electricity in jan 23 with an average cop of 4.1 (I assume jan cop was lower but let's give the heat pump a slight advantage) is roughly 2050kwh worth of heat. A gas boiler running at the same temps as the heat pump would be running at what, 90% efficiency? That's 2800kwh * .9 = 2500kwh worth of heat so that's already a 20% more heat that was needed to heat the place assumingly due to a colder weather (apparently 3.1 degree average in jan 2021 and 5.1 average in jan 2023). Were the rads the same? Because if as part of the heat pump install you installed larger rads and the old boiler was running hotter temps due to smaller rads, that again decreases it's efficiency. If we were to take .9 efficiency of a boiler to output the 2050kwh, we woul be looking at roughly £266 of a gas bill, that's £90 dearer than a heatpump so less than what was mentioned in the video. Not bashing heat pumps, I like the idea of effectively stealing heat from outsite and bringing it inside thanks to this technology however like with all new things, the devil is in the minute detail and I'm just getting a feeling some detail is not talked about here. I love the vids btw despite personally being against global push towards everything green, electric and generally rainbowy. Edit: Also, did they heat the place to the same temperatures in the two months? Jan 2021 would have been a pandemic month so they would have probably been in the house more therefore needed to keep the house at the comportable temp for longer periods of time? I would love a brakedown of ALL the figures, it would make for a very good and informative video!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

You are missing the fact that gas boilers are only around 85% efficient and some gas was used for cooking. So let’s say 2600kwh for heating x 0.85= 2200kWh of gas. Spot on 4.1 cop on 500kWh of electricity

[@leonmilner9994]

Underrated idea actually! Ppl with newer condensing boilers with improper rads & flow temps should probably consider replacing the rads and ensuring proper flow temps. Then their system will be more efficient, and they will be ideally set up to switch to hear pump when it comes time to replace the boiler.

[@leonmilner9994]

*heat pump

[@rogerphelps9939]

Why are you against the global push towards everything green? Clearly you do not value the environment that your children and grandchildren will have to live in. They will be cursing you for your complacent attitude and lack of foresight. Not nice is it?

[@BerlietGBC]

Hit the nail on the head carful design and carful installation is the key

[@Cruner62]

You are so wrong - What we had was a low cost well tried heating system that could easily have been made cleaner than it already is - they are peddling nonsense when we have a wealth of low cast energy to last hundreds of years whilst we find a reliable replacement. The UK has a very small footprint of pollution compared to the US,China and Russia and we have almost no land mass to procure any renewables capable of working cost effectively. If stop oil had their way we would grind to a halt within two days and die of cold and famine in the next cold period.

[@goldenretriever6261]

I'm a mechanical engineer in Canada and our clients want heat pumps in older commercial properties. Problem is they don't have the electrical capacity and the space for large air handlers. Also, large delta T in Canada (50+ Celsius), so need back up heat.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Ground source should be better.

[@anonym3017]

At that point you definitely go with ground source. If the commercial property is big enough you can even do all the drilling inside which makes permitting easier. And large commercial properties have an electrical connection in the hundreds or thousands of kW.

[@goldenretriever6261]

@@anonym3017thanks fir the replies. I should clarify. Large commercial properties in rural areas without 3 phase power. Large is relative to other type of properties in the region

[@anonym3017]

@@goldenretriever6261 so farms and not factories. Got it.

[@datoming]

I live in a 220-sq metres new build with air source heat exchange pump with underfloor heating in both storeys. This is the Czech Republic with its colder winter and longer hotter summer than England where I used to live. Air recuperation helps heat distribution, recycling and loss in winter. Triple glazing cuts down heat loss further and configuring the heat pump to operate in reverse keeps the indoor space cool in hot days in summer. The electricity bill is about 2/3 of that of combined gas & electricity in an apartment with smaller living space in England. I believe the milder winter in England would allow heat pumps to replace gas boiler however the lack of good, experienced heat pump engineers in the UK would mean sub-optimal installation leading to fewer satisfied customers in the UK.

[@antoinec1066]

Just out of curiosity what was the installation cost?

[@Skeletoncrew46and2]

Don't be so rude!😂

[@willrivers8445]

Last time I checked Worcester Bosch had more than 30% of the UK gas boiler market but less than 1% of the heat pump market

[@geoffaries]

Like many of us professionals, WB believe that hydrogen is a better and more affordable route to take.

[@rogerphelps9939]

I wonder why, with a boss like that.

[@geoffaries]

@@rogerphelps9939 It's nothing to do with the "boss" it's due to the low take up of ASHP's, only wealthy people can afford them, their £5,000 subsidy is paid for by taxpayers who can't afford them and social housing where again taxpayers subsidise the costs. The other factor is that they manufacture quality products, similar to Vaillant, which makes them ore expensive, but they do provide excellent training and technical support. FWIW I am a diehard Vaillant supporter, having used their products since 1990.

[@pauls9189]

Yeah, we worked out that an air source heat pump would cost far more than storage heaters running on night rate.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

What? That’s not right. Your night rate would have to be over 4 times cheaper for that to be true. Also with overnight tarring and a heat pump + battery - heat pump is still 4 times cheaper to run that. Storage heaters

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@UrbanPlumbers The problem is that you need the heat pump on all day, not at night. That means that you are going to use standard rate electricity, not off peak.

[@Jablicek]

I want to know how your client was getting electricity at 35p/kWh when mine was over 51p!

[@macraghnaill3553]

EDF is around 33p per kw until July when the prices go up again' I bought a multi fuel stove, heats the whole house to 17/18c which is what I had with the heating on, don't use heating now unless temps' below freezing, used 75% less gas this year, obviously bought coal and wood but still saved £300 on what I would of spent on gas

[@rogerphelps9939]

You are paying through the nose. 34p per kwh is about the going rate. It is that high because it is tied to the price of the most expensive form of generation which is gas. If this were changed, electricity would be a lot cheaper and choosing a heat pump over gas would be a nobrainer.

[@Jablicek]

@@rogerphelps9939 Trust me, I know it. British Gas, who I've since moved away from. It's just really expensive through all providers in London, even the 100% green ones now.

[@alimack5489]

I’m very late to the party here, and I agree I’m coming round to the idea of this form of heating… but, and there is a big but these will not replace current units without a massive change for installers within the UK. And additionally customers need to be educated to this style of heating. The days of turn on and expect to be warm in 30/45 minutes does not work for these units simple as that.

[@Vaniek]

My home build in 77 with cavity filled, standard pvc windows. Not insulated floor. Have panels with it. Samsung 8kw ASHP. In December entire cost of energy was 300 pounds keeping 20 in day 18.5 in night. Entire year of electricity cost me around 1k excluding money earn from exporting. With battery storage could go much lower.

[@rogerphelps9939]

In December you are using about 30kwh per day. Your solar panels are going to produce less than 5kwh per day on average (assuming 4kwp). Since your heat pump will be on all day it will use up any solar panel generation and battery storage will be useless. Battery storage might just help at the start of autumn and the end of spring and of course you could be almost totally off grid in summer. Don't expect battery storage to do anything for you in winter.

[@MrKlawUK]

the insulation thing I never understsnd. like for like an uninulated house would also use more gas.

[@leonmilner9994]

Haha yup! And a condensing boiler at the wrong flow temp & radiator size would also use more gas!

[@davidscott3292]

Yes, if you have really good insulation, heating shouldn't cost much however you do it.

[@davidramsay7020]

Good video with solid info from the owner and the system. Clearly a decent system and a good COP.

[@chrisgemmix0815]

I am beginning to suspect that the difference between people who claim heat pumps don't work and people who claim they do isn't so much what house they are in, but whether they know how to use a heat pump properly. Of course a modern fully insulated house is a bit more forgiving if you don't, but that's not the point.

[@BigAL0074]

They are OK in a mild winter like the last one, in a cold winter you need a back up system.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@BigAL0074 I can assure you that you do not. I have had my heat pump for six years and never needed supplementary heat.

[@geoffaries]

It's not a question as to whether heat pumps work, of course they do, providing that they're correctly designed and installed. The question should be "do they make financial sense" the answer is not they don't if you are connected to mains natural gas. The case for offgrid properties is more complicated.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@geoffaries Wrong. You have not taken account of the external costs of fossil fuels. These do not appear on any balance sheet but are very real nevertheless. Our grandchildren will have to pay for out foolishness.

[@el-lex6822]

How many Kilowatt hours of gas had the used in 2021,2020 und 2019 .

[@matthewmcmullan9669]

The biggest issue would be finding somewhere for the tank, combi boiler is nice and small and fits on the wall out the way. That tank would have to take up my wardrobe space

[@teanau11]

And you money as well

[@rogerphelps9939]

Put the tank in the loft. Don't these houses have airing cupboards?

[@bearhauscubly]

I really like the followups, especially after winter and with high energy costs. That large tall radiator is the nicest I've seen of it's kind. In keeping with the style of old rads - albeit massive!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Large radiators or insulation if you want decent efficiency and low running cost

[@bearhauscubly]

@@UrbanPlumbers If it was your own house would you do both? Or does proper insulation negate the need for larger rads completely?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I am doing both - insulation and large rads so that I can have a super low temp and a scop closer to 5 than 4

[@anonym3017]

@@bearhauscubly insulation lowers the amount of heating required. doesn't matter what you use to heat. larger rads allow for lower water temperatures while outputting the same amount of heat. and a lower water temperature makes for a more efficient heatpump. both is best. if money is limited go for large rads and then spend the rest of the budget on insulation.

[@geoffaries]

Why is the comparison with 2022 missing? What was the total cost of the installation? What is the projected payback period? This should include the interest on the capital cost. I expect that much of the saving on energy used is due the weather compensator, the rough consumption figures seem to imply a COP of 6:1.

[@kadmow]

At the end of the day whether a heatpump makes sense (permitting, permitting) if the electricity cost is proportional to the cost of natural gas (per kWh) multiplied the effective COP or cheaper. Solong as the temperature range of the refrigerant is compatible to the environmental factors. (Design and install what works for the property). Good windows (a ERV wouldn't be out of order - ??- to provide controlled ventilation (humidity control) without bleeding conditioned air.. Insulating the walls can only improve the economics, though the payback may indeed be minimal - at least having decent thermal mass allows diurnal averaging to help a little - the UK isn't all that cold for very much of the year - insulation would make more impact in regions experiencing "deep freeze".

[@brianoneill350]

Szymon, thank you for such a good video and the HeatGeek link. I hope you are doing well and busy

[@pumpkinhead456]

It's a joy when a new vid arrives! Oh... Scop of 3.3 and £270 for Jan - well done, brilliant!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Way of target 🎯

[@pumpkinhead456]

​@@UrbanPlumbers I'm glad I was 😊

[@mihaiachim5299]

Heat pumps are clearly part of our future and present and in many places they will be the best heating solution, but it does not mean that we must try to impose them everywhere and grant subsidies for them. This winter was a very warm winter; not only the heat pump takes up living space, but also the enlarged radiators; the space in the yard is also important if you live in a city where the land is relatively limited. with heat pumps, not only the operating cost should be considered, but also the purchase cost (and the non-subsidized price of the heat pumps should be considered!!! because the subsidies do not fall from the sky but are paid by the other taxpayers), installation and maintenance because heat pumps will break down after a number of years and the cost of repairs is higher than that of gas boilers + skilled technicians available to maintain them are perhaps 30-40 times less than those able to repair a gas boiler... the accessories inside the house are more difficult to mask like a gas boiler if you don't have a technical/laundry room

[@rogerphelps9939]

Well you can have anything as long as it does not burn fossil fuels. That leaves little choice and heat pumps are best.

[@mihaiachim5299]

@@rogerphelps9939 maybe a vegan will tell you that he would choose to burn gas but not eat beef and would choose to ride a bicycle instead of an SUV and would have the same footprint on the environment as someone who doesn't burn gas ;) An environmentalist would also forbid the use of cement in construction... everyone sees the advantages and disadvantages differently. the part with the burning or unburning of fuels (fossil, renewable or synthetic) is relative... having a bivalent gas boiler in the house with very high power modulation is very practical and convenient - it takes up little space and responds relatively instantly to the thermal needs of a house... + low cost of purchase, installation and maintenance for gas boilers an advantage ... There is no single solution to the problem of global warming... The Dutch don't want the glaciers to melt, but maybe the Russians in Siberia would enjoy a warmer climate ... carriers would be happy to have access to the navigable channels of northern Russia and Europe

[@SouthIslandSk8]

@@rogerphelps9939 The electricity supplied to your heat pump comes from burning oil and gas mainly. Or is imported from other countries that burn it on your behalf so you can pretend you are "clean". And in any case, there's nothing wrong with the planet, what's fucked are the people pushing these profit based agendas on everybody. Yes the weather is changing, that's what it always has done and always will.

[@NotMarkKnopfler]

My gas boiler was purchased for £800 and installed for £500. That was 11 years ago and it's still working perfectly with only the electrodes having been replaced. How much is a heat pump installation and how long will it run?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Peter Miller can supply and install a heat pump for you for £150

[@EliteHydronics.]

High thermal mass properties act like a heat flywheel. As long as the emitters UFH/Rads sized right and indeed commissioned correctly you will have no problems. Bivalent systems will be obsolete as soon as we gain confidence with the likes of viessmann, vaillant units Cheers Dave EH

[@rogerphelps9939]

Mine is an Ecoforest GSHP. It works very well.

[@morganplatt6762]

Haven't seen any other of your vids but did you use existing pipework for ASHP? or did you have to re-pipe.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

New primary pipework only, no repipe needed

[@washellwash1802]

This video is a riot when the auto english subtitle keeps talking about victorian terrorist houses :)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

😂 😂 😂

[@jage6126]

You are right. They are trying to push expensive products with higher profits. Here in cold northern Sweden, we have lots of older draughty houses with heat pumps. Just remember to open up for air transfer between the rooms.

[@replevideo6096]

I don't understand where you are coming from. Here in the UK the installation cost for a new gas boiler is about £2,000 or less for a combi. The cost for an air source heat pump is £8,000 or more and it may need larger radiators installed too. I had a new Worcester Bosch boiler for my 2 bed semi plus a new programmer installed for £1,985. I could have save about £300 if I had changed to a combi boiler but I prefer to have a hot water tank which can be heated electrically if the boiler goes wrong. If you have to wait a couple of weeks for a plumber to fit you in, it's no fun without hot water on tap.

[@dorsetengineering]

@@replevideo6096 Jag E is referring to air-air heat pumps (mini split air conditioners) which are usually cheaper, installed, than a new gas boiler. It’s pretty much what everyone else in the world uses to heat and cool their homes. Cheap to buy, cheap to install, cheap to run

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@replevideo6096 This is irrelevant. Before very long new combi boilers will be illegal. The cost of the heating system is a small fraction of the cost of a new house. It is a lot less than that of a new car and is a far better investment. With mass adoption the prices of these things will come down. They aren't rocket science.

[@topgazza]

I have a 1989 detached 4 bed, well insulated, with micro bore to all the ground floor rads but 15mm to the upstairs rads.Couple of initial surveys said I need to replace the 10mm microbore with 15mm to get the flow rates I need. With a concrete floor that's just not going to happen within any sensible budget. Is this generally the case ? Or am I being hoodwinked ?

[@leonmilner9994]

Could you consider adding flat panel radiators to the main floor instead?

[@MrKonquer]

There isn’t a problem with micro bore as long as you keep on top of your system maintenance constantly replace your inhibitor and get annual flushes, most fitters opt to swap it out because they don’t want to deal with the problems that come with poorly kept systems on micro bore that being blockages when you go to fill up after it’s been dropped.

[@effervescence5664]

Most fitters can't state a scop because they're no guarantee they can get microbore flushed properly due to the size of the pipe when flushing for a new system. There's usually a clause in our paperwork that if an effective flush can't be achieved we're not responsible and the pipework may have to be ripped out and replaced anyway. That said it it's 15mm to the upstairs rads, why can't you have 15mm pipe drops down to the ground floor from above and cap off the pipework in the screed. The other way of getting the flow rates would be a buffer tank, which takes up more space inside the property and lowers the overall efficiency.

[@tonydaddario4706]

Two surveys make the same recommendation and you think they are trying it on?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Too many factors involved to be able to answer this question. Full heat loss calcs are needed before you can tell if microbore can be retained. It is usually best to replace it

[@yvettegoward9600]

What was the install cost and the expected lifespan of the system- and what are the annual servicing costs, and any annual/long term consumables?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

after the grant average system cost is £8-£15k in the UK. System life span should be decacdes, heat source should be 15-20 years.

[@andrewdavies7816]

Great install. What flow temps were they operating at in Jan? Seems like flow temp is the make or break and I'm genuinely interested to know what sort of ball park this system is operating in. Cheers for the excellent videos!

[@leonmilner9994]

You also need the right radiators. For example single tube radiators are designed to run at 180F. When the temp drops by 20 degrees they only put out half as much heat or something. Even condensing boilers must have correctly sized rads and correct flow temps to operate at their most efficient. Funny how very few people ever talk about that though..

[@UrbanPlumbers]

They run it at 38c max flow temp

[@andrewdavies7816]

@@UrbanPlumbers that's great, really shows what you can get with big, but not ugly or silly radiators!

[@creakybones2407]

@@UrbanPlumbers I have a 6kw Daikin in my Bungalow and used 491kw in January which produced 1587kw of heat for a COP of 3.23 I run it on pure weather compensation mode. Design temp is 45@ -2c but have managed to shift it down to 45@ -7c Vailent do seem to be a bit more efficient but it is what it is.

[@normanboyes4983]

Symon - great video and a superb install with a great outcome (COP) - a great one for your portfolio.😀👍

[@BarriosGroupie]

I find the Coefficient of Performance value of 4.0 mind-blowing at 7:34. Do you know the value for the Annual performance factor?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Scop is going to be above 4.1 as the unit has been in 7 months and only has summer months to go now.

[@martinlemke4440]

We use a Vaillant heat pump as well, the larger VWL125/A6 with 12kW of heating power. Our House has a double brickwall, too. Insulated roof and relativly modern double glass windows with a total living space of 233m^2 and we have a cop of 4.2 (average over winter). We are five persons in our family.

[@teanau11]

So may I ask how much have you saved compared with gas boiler? And how much did you pay for the heatpump?

[@SouthIslandSk8]

@@teanau11 no response there haha, i bet he has an electric car as well and sits at the charging station (if he can find one) for an hour at a time.

[@jerryz673]

Great video. However,for the 1 sqm space, it is indeed 1 sqm, but it shouldn't be in the middle of the room, you must have a adequate space for it, like occupy the whole storage space etc, then you have to find another area for your stuff, which is sometimes impossible.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Minimalism mate. 1 T shirt 1 jeans - job done

[@markb1487]

Outstanding video..Great video. Great content. 💯👍💯👍💯

[@cippollino83]

Insulating the house is the best option. Whatever source of energy you have installed: boiler or heat pump is the speed of heat loose of the building. I would personally insulate the houses instead fitting a heat pump

[@geoffaries]

AND fit a weather compensator to the gas boiler, all good quality heat pumps use them as they can make a 10% saving on heating costs, not hot water. Hot water use also has a big Impact on ASHP's as they need to increase flow temp to 70 degrees C, so their COP drops to 1:1.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Do both and futureproof your house.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@geoffaries That is not true for my Ecoforest GSHP.

[@geoffaries]

@@rogerphelps9939 Yes do both, if you've got more money than sense.

[@geoffaries]

@@rogerphelps9939 What are you talking about?

[@macraghnaill3553]

In the previous house I had that heat pump unit would take up all of the space in the yard, terraced house with extension on the back as had next door, yard only a few feet [less than 3ft ]wide and about 12 foot long Anyone with a vented central heating system could just buy a multi fuel stove with boiler and have that power the heating system

[@rogerphelps9939]

Thesethings are bad for the environment and new ones will be illegal sooner than you think.

[@DragonXDrei]

We have the choice between Mitsubishi, Samsung and the Stiebel Eltron. It is £3000 more expensive than the other two and the MCS listed SCOPs are lower too. I am wondering why the so much higher price tag and if it is worth paying the premium price for it.

[@bpccross]

We're currently renovating a 300 year old period property in the North West. I'm putting in as much insulation as I can where I can but we may not be able to change the wooden sash windows at the front of the house which are quite drafty. I'm also installing UFH at 150mm centres on all the ground floor and one or 2 upstairs rooms. Currently has 3 year old Combi boiler which is servicable - do you suggest looking into a heat pump? How do I decide please.. I don't want a cold house in winter! Thanks for all your incredible videos!!!

[@rogerphelps9939]

If you have the space get a GSHP. It will be costly but very satisfactory. Going green is in itself a virtue and should help with the value of your house.

[@crymerus1519]

Your Videos are great. Me and my wife are currently stuck with LPG Gas and are in the process of planning a full renovation, we have decided its best to make the switch to The aroTHERM plus system. I wish I could have the confidence that whichever MSC Installer we end up using to install our system would have the same level knowledge as yourself to make our system run to the optimal level. With this is mind I am leaning on the side of caution trying to pick the best person to fit our system and with being located in Southwest, Cornwall there is not a huge pool to pick from so if you could recommend anyone located down here feel free :). We are thinking of doing retro fit ufh system throughout the whole of our downstairs and recall seeing another video of yours where you say that because its a retro fit not a screeded ufh system the flow temp will need to be set to 45c appose to 35c. My only question is would it make more sense to have ufh throughout the upstairs as well or stick to rads for the upstairs? Thanks again

[@goldenretriever6261]

Wow , electricity is expensive in England. In Canada a kWh is 5-10 p (converted from Canadian $) depending on time of day.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, the most expensive in all of Europe I believe.

[@geoffaries]

​@@UrbanPlumbers electricity is more expensive in the UK due to the green levy.

[@lukedoherty8062]

@@UrbanPlumbersnot quite German. Denmark and i believe Ireland were slightly more.

[@rogerphelps9939]

The price of electricity here is tied to the price of the most costly means of generation which happens to be gas. It is a scandal.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@geoffaries Wrong. The green levy is a miniscule proportion of the electricity price. The price is high because it is tied to the most expensive generation methos which is gas. It is a disgrace.

[@dinendale666]

That is the main problem, gas boilers and systems get thrown in with hardly an consideration for anything. This will happen with heat pumps.

[@Skeletoncrew46and2]

Agree 100%. Who cares if it works, as long as I get paid. I'm afraid this guy is in a huge minority of plumbers. The majority don't care.

[@Martindyna]

Yes, I feel that a lot of gas / oil fired installations are under radiatored to save imstallation cost. A disadvantage of competitive tendering unless the quotations are really detailed and specifiy the dimensions / output of all radiators.

[@jimdunleavypiano]

Managing director of leading manufacturer of gas boilers says heat pumps are no good. What's not to trust there eh?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

WB also sell heat pump. Not very good ones but still…

[@geraldriddler3381]

I have tried lots of times to get an installer to fit an heat pump to my home , however 3 installers failed to return my calls or emails, 1 company turned up but when i started asking about cop and other things they didn't get back to me with a quote Its a big house around 350m2 but i don't see how this should be an issue . I want to change over from my oil boiler , i also have solar hot water so have a large water tank. will try contacting heet Geeks PS> Based in Scotland. keep up the excellent videos

[@deanchapple1]

Thanks

[@l2e4w6i8s]

My main issue with heat pump installations is the cost.. I know like all things as the technology is more widely used the cost will come down, but the cost alone to get a property optimally insulated and then add on the cost of the installation is far far out of most people budgets. The gov grants dont come close to making this a widely viable option for most of the uk. Great video though!

[@Candisa]

I live in Belgium and I'm medically disabled, which means I get "social rate" for gas and electricity. The problem with that is the cost of electricity compared to gas is a ratio of about 7:1 while the kWh-consumption with a heatpump compared to an efficient gas boiler is only a ratio of about 1:4, making it cost double in consumption. Since the heatpump consumes the most electricity when you can't generate much solar, and injection rate in the summer is so low compared to consumption rate in the winter, it's pretty much impossible to compensate for the higher cost that way. Bringing down the social rate for electricity would 'cost too much' and probably encourage people to 'earn a buck' by f.e. letting their non-disabled friends and family charge their EVs at their home. Ramping up the social rate for gas would be a problem for the many disabled people who rent or otherwise can't choose to switch from a gas boiler to a heatpump, so I don't see the government fixing this any time soon... Result: I installed a brand new gas boiler last year, in my own home that's otherwise almost textbook 'heat pump ready' (insulation, large radiators, boiler temperature of not even 50°C when it was freezing outside). It's a shame really, but I can't afford spending more money on a heating system that costs me more in consumption out of idealism...

[@GregNow]

I would say this property looks like has PVC double-glazed windows and probably no pine floorboards with gaps. So you can expect it's not a average single glaze wooden sash terrace. Most likely on average heat pump would perform ok. I would say if you going for heat pump get yourself solar panels and your own battery storage. This combo is definitely the way to go!

[@lua-nya]

You pose the situation opposite to what I have here. Installers that didn't want to run maths properly installed a heat pump that could handle a house with tripke the heat loss, but that with no changes to the radiators from the retired system boiler (which ran over 80 degrees Celsius) it runs under a COP of 2 when it's close to freezing. The result? A system that can keep the house warm when it's kinda cool by inefficiently turning on and off multiple times per hour as it heats the water too fast for the radiators. And breakers tripping when weather is actually below freezing.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

as I said in the video: system design and calcuations for pipework, unit size and radiators or UFH contorl of the system is THE MOST important aspect of heat pump installations

[@rogerphelps9939]

Inverter heat pumps do not cycle on and off like that.

[@tEXKiKos]

still running cost is almost equal to gas boiler. 1kWh of gas 10p and 1kWh of electricity 35p. looking at tiny differences and installation cost massively different.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

35% cheaper running cost and about the same cost of installation as a decent weather compensated gas boiler with unvented cylinder if you take 0 VAT and £5K BUS grant into the account.

[@BenIsInSweden]

1kWh of gas doesn't provide 1kWh of heat. e.g. with this one getting a SCOP of 4.1, you are getting 4.1kW of heat for 1kW of electricity. To get 4.1kW of heat from gas, you'd need (if boiler is set up to be 90% efficient) 4.55kwh of gas. 4.55x10p = 45.5p. So 10p more expensive for the same amount of heat from a gas boiler.

[@tEXKiKos]

@@UrbanPlumbers that basically mean it doesn't matter which one you pick. It's ok for a new houses, but I would say for a new houses its easier just to go with MVHR/MEV ASHP cylinder and electric panel heaters. Older Houses easer to keep with boilers and avoid replacing heaters.

[@tEXKiKos]

@@BenIsInSweden Hi Ben. Condensing Boilers are >96% efficient, so maybe not a total 100%, but close enough in my book. Both solutions are cost neutral and I wouldn't say either of them is better then the other. Compressor Lifecyle is 15years? There is not many things that can go wrong in the boiler. ASPH on other hand also has refrigerant, that can leak, etc. There is more things that can go wrong in the ASHP, but the solution running costs are similar so I wouldn't say ASHP is a golden solution.

[@Deiphobuzz]

​@@tEXKiKos Leaks almost never occur with ASHP. Even less with monoblock units. No chamce of CO poisoning, yearly maintenance is basically zero. Just a clean and flush the crap filter. Gas boilers break down way more than heatpumps. I service both, i owned both. And with gas you will never benefit as much from your solar as you would with a HP.

[@jonathondavies8347]

like to see this installed in the cottage i live in. and finding somewhere outside to put the main unit. good luck with that one.

[@wajopek2679]

Our 94yr old ‘ciocia’ has a big 1904 stone Victorian mid terrace (and huge cellar) in Yorkshire that actually had a cavity wall front/rear which was foam insulated. Even with tall ceilings it does not require much heat to retain a comfortable living. Her house is boiling and her gas bill is cheaper than our 3 bed ultra insulated brick semi. There you go…..

[@jonjohnson2844]

I have a similar old house, would love to slap some solar on the roof and have a heat pump - trouble is I enjoy nice cars and holidays too much to be able to afford it!

[@rogerphelps9939]

A heat pump is a far better investment than any car.

[@neilbissett1240]

I think the CEO is bound to say heat pumps don’t work as he’s the head of a company that sells gas boilers finally as ever a great video and insight to how with the right fitted equipment to a property heat pumps do work for me as with most things you need the right person designing and installing one congratulations mate 👏😎

[@fredbloggs72]

They not only sell gas boilers, they sell oil boilers as well, we had a W-B oil combi installed in one of ours houses in 2006, every year it gets serviced, every year it breaks down, the outer casing must be one of the few parts that's still original, luckily it has a open fireplace and there is a large supply of logs to stop hypothermia whilst waiting to get it fixed in winter.

[@Dazzerthegooner666]

Worcester Bosch sell heatpumps as well

[@rogerphelps9939]

Clearly he is retiring well before new gas and oil boilers become illegal and the shit hits his company's fan.

[@fredbloggs72]

@@rogerphelps9939 Funny enough the only heat pump I know that was 'ripped out' because it wasn't performing well was a W-B, but this was some years back.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

We ripped WB junior here 😊

[@ronblack7870]

so this is in england where the weather is mild. how about in northeast usa where winter can hit 0 F ( -15C) often. and also using forced air heating not radiators so to have air conditioning.

[@derekpaisley620]

Just reading the comments, trying to pick out the stats. 7kw heat loss and a design flow temp of 38 deg. Its very interesting for me. Looking at my house , just under 8k heat loss, thinking of using a 7kw unit.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

7kw arotherm has 9kw output of the flow temp is 35c

[@derekpaisley620]

@Urban Plumbers this is exactly my thoughts, why design a system for less than 3% of the time. North East is not too cold lol

[@brianpiddock6074]

Tell me what size Electrical Supply is required to supply the heat pump unit.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

15amp for this one not

[@brianpiddock6074]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks all the heat pumps I've installed the supply's to up to now have been 32 Amp required to supply the 6 kW water heater.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No back up heaters needed with modern heat pumps

[@rogerphelps9939]

Most houses will need a 3kw supply. A 16 amp circuit is fine.

[@HjuvikLabs]

Heat pumps works in any building, as we here in Sweden has known for decades!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

What are we doing wrong here then? A lot of negativity around heat pumps in the Uk and vested interests to keep the gas going

[@dorsetengineering]

@@UrbanPlumbers air-water is the problem. I guarantee that the Swedes are using air-air…. Much simpler, better COP, cheaper to buy, cheaper to install

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Nahh, loads of A2W in Sweden, Germany, Norway, Poland - just not UK. Must be something to do with driving on the wrong side of the road.

[@dorsetengineering]

@@UrbanPlumbers almost certainly 🤣 it’s the obsession by the distributors trying to make them a drop in boiler replacement that’s the problem. Grant, Midea, Samsung - all installed with on/off controls and the WC turned off, as you well know from your experience. I firmly blame the distributors.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@dorsetengineering No. Air air was specifically excluded from the RHI.

[@robvossen8099]

Is this cop including hot water or only heating? What was the yearly kwh of consumption using a boiler? How much kw is this pump?

[@BenIsInSweden]

He shows in the video the heating only SCOP and the total SCOP (heating + DHW)

[@robvossen8099]

@@BenIsInSweden are you sure? I thought he showed month and year to date or did i misunderstood this part?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Month and year to date and cop/scop is for heating only. DHW cop was 3.1

[@johnfreshwater3790]

Great video. Have been telling people they work in old houses for last 3 years as our house is 220 years old and solid stone and we used 2000kwh of electricity for Jan Feb and March this year and our house is 200 sq metres. At constant 20 degrees internal temp. I've given up telling people they work as some just don't like change

[@alangordon3283]

I don’t even use that for a year 🙄

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@alangordon3283 Yes you do. I presume you use gas for heating.

[@ram64man]

I support the Bosch CEO on that a heat pump is just not worth it when a property has a heat loss more than 20kwh and old standard single or double windows especially when to get the max your limed to about 35c ok for underfloor but not old fashioned rads that still want more than 55c circulation. That's why I went air to air instead and retiring the underfloor heating heat pump . At 40c per kWh it's cost me 1200 as month to heat a 5 bedroom using a 16kw heat pump split HT not to mention the cost of installing more insulation to r30 like this property did in renovation

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Most Victorian terraced houses are around 7kw 🤦

[@ram64man]

@@UrbanPlumbers I'm talking about detached

[@rogerphelps9939]

Properly sized radiators are fine with 35 degree flow temperature. Heat loss is not measured in kwh. I presume you mean kw in which 20kw is a very extreme value. You should be able to easily limit to 10kw.

[@johnburns4017]

Good vid. The point of this vid is to highlight that air sourced heat pumps _can_ work in terraced houses, match and maybe pipping gas boilers. But what really matters is the COP during the really cold winter months, as that is when most energy is used. The vid only showed April. As gas is one third of the price of electricity per Kw/h, they are running neck and in those months. Generally a cheaper gas condensing boiler, well design and fitted with excellent controls, with extra insulation added to the loft and other places around the house will be cheaper to run and install inc' insulation. In such houses I would not advise people to run out and buy a heat pump. The payback may be very _looooooong._

[@BenIsInSweden]

I don't know about you, but I still need to heat my house when the temperature outside is between 5 and 12c. During those times you can get a COP of 4 sometimes even 5. With a COP of 3 during the coldest winter months, which is definitely achievable, it is at least on par with a condensing gas boiler. Also if you're doing those upgrades for gas, then you rightly don't consider them as part of the Heat Pump install. The BUS grant covers most - if not all of the cost of the actual heat pump itself. So the payback period for the extra cost of the heatpump will probably only take a few years.

[@mrserviceman8795]

What are the annual service costs and repairs when they break down what was the installation costs

[@BenIsInSweden]

EVM said his Annual service cost was £150. These ones come with a 5-year guarantee, extended to 7 if installed by one of their partners. After that, if regularly serviced, heat pumps will usually last until EOL. Full breakdowns in the UK should generally be covered by the Home Emergency cover of the home insurance as well.

[@SethJayson]

No one should underestimate the safety and peace of mind getting a gas boiler out of your house. I know of too many people who have been sickened or killed by backed-up exhaust from boilers.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Really? I thought with room sealed units this so rare occurrence these days?

[@geoffaries]

Nonsense , mains natural gas is the safest form of energy in any domestic environment, there has not been a reported death from CO poisoning by a domestic room sealed boiler for years, if ever since negative fan extract has been used. Electricity is far more dangerous.

[@geoffaries]

@foppo that's a stupid analogy. There's a very real risk of being involved in a vehicle accident. The most likely outcome of not having a modern gas boiler serviced is that it will breakdown on Christmas Eve. Electicity is a far bigger killer than gas boilers. As I said, there have been no reported fatalities from room sealed gas boilers for years.

[@willm5814]

Heat pumps are the way forward - nice work!!

[@aeonturnip2]

I'm going to guess a COP of 4 and cost of January bill to be £300. What was the full cost of the installation over the cost of a new condensing boiler? Would it make back the difference in 5 years, say?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

very close with COP, the running cost was much lower. The cost was around 12K less the grant so £7K and not Vat. High-end system boiler with weather comp and a new unvented cylinder would have costed around the same. (Vaillant Eco Tec Plus or Viessmann 200 + 200L unvented)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

so nothing to make back and instant savings from day 1

[@fredgray2376]

@@UrbanPlumbers Is it necessary to have an unvented cylinder? Isn't it possible for the secondary to be vented? That would be cheaper for me.

[@aeonturnip2]

@@UrbanPlumbers Nice! Am tempted but really like the idea of incorporating air conditioning for the summer so would be interest in comparisons with minisplits, and also have a decently big back garden that could potentially be used for ground source. The number of options make the whole thing quite baffling.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes vented is fine

[@Richardincancale]

I guess 3.5 annual COP… Excellent actual result!

[@KavanOBrien]

How much are these heat pumps ? What if the price of electricity goes up would the cost against gas then be more expensive , not had heat all winter gas boiler not working , looking for something for future, old now won’t make it through another winter without heat.

[@philbattye]

@kavanobrien6547: By all indications the tax burden that electricity currently bears is going to be shifted onto gas. However the gov. have been saying this (Grant Shaps) for at least 2 years now but nothing happens. Lol

[@gsdevme]

Can you come an install one in Ayr, South Ayrshire? happy to throw in an ice cream at the beach for you. The last combi I had installed the guy was clueless (although gas safe). I'm not scared of heat pumps, I'm scared of "ex boiler" guys installing them without understanding anything.

[@utensil999]

Informative as usual. Keeo the videos rollkng please.❤

[@m0rtifiedpenguin]

With good cop heat pumps still save money. More insulation on front and back walls and tighter windows and doors and heating costs go even lower. With high gas costs heat pumps win on efficiency alone.

[@gibbodive140]

Good morning Simon. Apologies if this has been asked previously. Did the thermal requirements/insulation for this property meet the requirements/qualify for the £5000 grant. Solid walls, bare floor boards, no insulation ? Thank you.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes it does. You have to upgrade the loft insulation to 300mm

[@gibbodive140]

@@UrbanPlumbers Thank you for your answers. This is a perfect example of presentations such as yours doing great work to covey far more detailed and valuable information than other areas of the industry.

[@geoffaries]

​@@UrbanPlumbers can you post a copy of the EPC? Thanks

[@cvarsani2190]

Would love to see you installing a Sunamp Heat batterywith Vaillant ASHP to see if the two can play nicely with each other.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

They don’t play nicely at all. Efficiency is poor. Much better if with a regular cylinder.

[@kevfquinn]

WB CEO trying to talk up hydrogen boilers - of course he is 🤦. Utter nonsense. WB need to recognise the sunk cost on that product development work and write it down.

[@Martindyna]

It seems that Mr. Rajakoba made a mistake or was misquoted when he said `.... or are not detached'. Surely this should be that ARE detached. I live in a Victorian end of terrace house and my neighbour's influence on my home's thermal performance is quite noticeable because they run their home quite warm.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

He probably meant that terrace houses don’t have enough space for heat pumps or cylinders

[@deanchapple1]

Great video. You really are starting to blow the negative myths of heat pumps out of the water! Heat pumps will replace gas soon. Shame about the location restrictions though. Another hurdle for heatpumps to overcome.

[@garza7676]

What they’ll replace is all the money you have in your wallet . Lol there over rated. Insulating homes and reducing the sizes of homes is the key to reducing our carbon foot print .

[@deanchapple1]

@@garza7676 Uk home are already tiny! Heat pumps are the future, watch this space!…..

[@garza7676]

@@deanchapple1 there great til the power stops working and it’s 20 degrees outside then you’ll wish you had natural gas 😂

[@deanchapple1]

@@garza7676 gas boilers need electricity too! 🤦🏼‍♂️ Heat pumps are amazing. What other heating technology will give a 1:4 return? So for every 1 kilowatt in, it gives you the equivalent of 4 kilowatts out. 🤯

[@garza7676]

@@deanchapple1 how much natural gas did you have to burn to get that kilowatt ? Genius

[@N570Z]

Another great video Simon, real world scenarios that many folk can relate to. Also opens up the benefit of ditching gas completely and avoiding the standing charge.

[@Cruner62]

Well you have not done your homework and make a note of this warning - you will regret ditching the gas and fossil fuels until a reliable cost effective replacement comes to pass by that time you wil be old and grey if you survive the famine and cold on the way.

[@stumac869]

It would have been interesting to know what the ambient temperature of the house was under gas and the heat pump for comparison. Was it the same, higher or lower using the latter?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

21c in both cases

[@thomaspreston6192]

I agree looking at the energy consumption front is great but, but it's about economic viability how long will it take for him to pay that off for the installation cost. It's almost a false economy situation. what he has on the bill doesn't out way relative cost of install

[@UrbanPlumbers]

you need to understand the it is a cost of a new heating and hot water system, not just a heat source. When it comes to replace the unit in the future (which by the way will outlast nay gas boiler by a factor of 2) it will only require changing the external unit, as pipework and correctly sized radiators are already in place. Such a job will only take 1 day and will be comparable in cost to a boiler swap.

[@kaya051285]

What about the fully internal ones. They just expell cold air out througu the wall Yes they are less efficient but super easy to install and in theiry you could even use them in flats assuming the freeholder will allow a few holes out of the external walls I mean they allow boiler flu out so most should be okay with a internal heat pump outlet

[@gibfear]

How the heck were they spending £300 a month on gas in a relatively small terraced house with a small external footprint?? I'm only spending a bit more than that in an old, draughty 4 bed detached house in the Pennines that's even an odd shape to make it less efficient!!

[@nevillekinsley5610]

With the new EPC regulations coming in soon does installing an air source heat pump help improve your grade?

[@briangriffiths1285]

Fantastic example.... Victorian terraced house mid terrace doesn't have much by way of outside walls. To me the lack of underfloor insulation would be a bigger issue. What you haven't pointed out is the mysterious inefficiency of gas and oil fired boilers. SEDBUK ratings are all good and well but in real life there is a lot of lost heat somewhere. My installation in a more modern detached house extended now to have 5 bedrooms and 40 m2 of ufh has gone from 2400 litres of oil to less than 6,000 kWh of electricity. The COP is about 3 overall but I am using a time of use tariff when 6 hours of electricity overnight is 7.5p an hour and consequently it works hardest during the coldest part of the day. My 12 months electricity costs were £1750 helped by £750 from the govt. pensioners and disabled but that includes 5,000 miles of driving my EV car too. Oh and my system has 4 pumps including one of small commercial size. The pumps when running consume 275 watts and my 14 kW Mitsubishi heat pump is 10% less efficient than a single fan unit. One point I never considered is perhaps having an undersink water heater in the kitchen to provide water at 55-60 degrees for cleaning up greasy things that aren't suitable for the dishwasher... thus allowing the hot water cylinder to run cooler for showers.

[@RachelAmyGeorgeKing]

You can't have the hot water stored below 60c because of the risk of legionella

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes you can. Occasional high temp cycle is all you need.

[@briangriffiths1285]

@@UrbanPlumbers And using copper cylinders and pipework might remove the need for that even. I haven't seen research on that specific point but at the start of Covid many areas where concerns about touching door plates was an issue replaced them stainless with copper. When I was a kid door plates were always brass or copper I wonder if the y knew something back then.

[@audikid89]

I think by lack of space he meant space to place outdoor condenser units. If you place too many outdoor condenser units too close together, their total delta is lowered as they cannot pull much ambient heat from the atmosphere. I did a service call last year for a church in New York. They had a 100’ x 50‘ building with five units spread evenly across the south facing wall. This wall has plenty of sun and plenty of ambient heat, yet the building was not heating properly because the units were too close together and there were too many of them causing them to pull heat From each other instead of from the atmosphere whenever the temperature dropped below 40°F, which is very common around here

[@julianpartridge2802]

With current Gas prices a heat pump makes more and more sense

[@chester6343]

What was the install cost?

[@neildavidcollins5514]

How much?

[@Rhyd]

Wouldn’t insulation be beneficial for cost saving thought?

[@Cruner62]

I built a triple A plus home with UFH o all floors and masses of insulation yet we could only afford to occupy one room and not use any of the heating just bare essentials like dehumidifier to dry clothing and minimal cooking on the gas and electric blankets to sleep with and plenty of warm clothing our energy bills went from £90/month to £375/month when the government removed the cap and gave us a pittance to help otherwise would now be £420/month and now we are entering summer the are are about to remove the help and the energy companies are increasing the rate to compensate for the reduction in usage. We have learnt it is cheaper to live in our caravan parked next to the house.

[@guringai]

Is that a propane heat pump for space heating or hot water?

[@maygarland6123]

my hitachi air-water heatpump is 9 years old now and when working under full load sounds like a diesel taxi running, as they age they will make more noise. once they hit 7 years old noise is almost always going to be noticeable and irritating. i have a few airconditioners and they are similar in noises but i do have a toshiba 17kw single phase that is 11years old that is still not intrusive. At a guess though the heat pump has worked about 8 times the hours of the airconditioner. As someone who has a 200 year old building that is around 500 square metres in size and mostly single glazed and not well insulated, i would say that airconditioning works best in draughty areas (most of the building) the hitachi heat pump would not cope well outside of the double glazed area (its only a 6kw unit) does what i want it to do very well and replacing the radiators and doing all of the associated work would be too expensive. on the whole i prefer airconditioning to heat pump. i would refuse to disconnect the gas boiler, though it was only in use for 3 days this last winter. on those days it was a boon to have. also R410 or older cant deal with minus temperatures that well. R32 performs significantly better than expected in cold temperatures you paint a picture that is a bit simplistic and you know what you are doing, where as most people fitting heat pumps are dishonest and dont know what they are doing. i think on the whole i agree with the worcester bosch man

[@anonym3017]

so let's just get this straight. you buy a ridiculously undersized heatpump and then complain that it ain't up to the job. you further cheap out on a piston based compressor, instead of the way better screw compressors, which are known to not last long and then complain about it not lasting long. mate your research was either shit or you were sold an utter piece of shit by some incompetent installer.

[@MichaelPickles]

How about a similar property fabric but twice the size with about 27,000 kW heat loss. But the ability to run the heat pump / s with 9p per kilowatt continuously.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

27,000kw heat loss? This one is 7kw ?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Did you mean 27kw not 27k kw?

[@MichaelPickles]

Ha yes 27kw not a massive building

[@UrbanPlumbers]

27kw should be massive building. Usually 6-8 bed fully detached period uninsulated house

[@MichaelPickles]

@@UrbanPlumbers 306 m² Edwardian. A basement, ground floor, first floor, loft conversion has 5 open fire place. 32 kW system boiler + hot water tank 230ltr. First Insulation project The bathroom is fully insulated and tanked 70mm pir in the walls and 200 in the roof 100 in the floor. With air change system. The rest of the house is just solid brick wall 200 mm + Lots of windows all double glazed. Half the floor has 100 ml insulation ( basement roof fully tanked) The loft only has 50 mm PIR. But there is some fibreglass in the loft floor about 100 mm.

[@asabriggs6426]

I'm not sure the Worcester Bosch CEO is willing to write-down the investments in gas technology; at least not on their watch. They have to find a reason why hydrogen boilers are a necessary part of the future. Also I'm not sure how well their tuble-dryer-like heat pumps are selling, so that side of the business may not have the whip-hand within the corporate hierarchy. On the other hand, the Vaillant's Arotherm Plus systems look to perform very well, at least when Urban Plumbers installs them. Let is hope the supply chain issues ease.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Non supply chain issues anymore as far as I can tell. WB heat pumps are not that great and lagging shined the competition big time, while Vaillant has produced an excellent package

[@amandathomas2061]

OK mine is a 1970 Wimpy semi. Commonly built 1963( parents bought one in Northampton) to at least 1973 ( mine built) I still have a hot water tank- gas central heating, but it is positioned on my internal joining wall. Outside the wall at front- under 2 opening windows, side wall no windows but is a driveway- a metre from boundary means a path very close back wall 2 windows and door take up almost full width. So from the position of unit very hard to find a position. And even worse- this house has more land than some new builds. One builder built "affordable houses" couldn't sell them, offered them to social housing who had to reject them because they didn't met minimum size requirements. So where in those rabbit hutches are they going to find room for the units? Generally speaking Victorian houses are bigger than houses being built for the more recent 100 years. I have wall insulation- due to government offer over 15 years ago. Attic insulated, UPVC windows but my new ones are much better than the older ones. Oh and the final nail- micropore central heating, that means all new piping, floors raised, flooring taken up, repositioning of hot water tank with possible loss of 1 bedroom reducing value of house. And the cost of the heat pump and it's workings. I think the Bosch CEO mis- identified, the real problem is those houses before Victorian ie solid walls, and the dross of new builds since the 2nd world war where the guiding question was how many cancwe get on the land. Paired with our local policy let's only build houses that are not " affordable" so we can get more money per house.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Many developments of small dwellings could use a community heating system. I believe that this is what has been implemented in South Wales where the heat source is flooded abandoned mine workings. Regarding microbore, my system used to be all microbore. I replaced some of it with 15mm pipe when resizing my radiators for my heat pump. The old radiators had coaxial valves at one end - useless so I had to dig up the floor to get to the opposite end of a radiator and in a few cases the radiator was repositioned. It works absolutely fine.

[@amandathomas2061]

@Roger Phelps this is not new, there is an estate that was heated by the cooling water from a power station. Not common but tried before. I'm 62 and we were told of it in school 50 years ago. Thought it was a great idea no idea how they were billed. Of course without the power station which I assume was coal or gas those houses probably wouldn't be getting the heating now. We also swam in the river where our local power station discharged it's warmed water- now that would have been living dangerously if we'd known anything about contamination of the local river.

[@A_barrel]

I don't know but whenever I'm somewhere that has heatpumps I'm always hot when it's hot and cold when it it's cold. Never had problems with regular heating and cooling.

[@BenIsInSweden]

Guessing you're not from the UK, as cooling in the UK is practically non existent. Whenever I stay at my parents place in the UK, I find it too cold in winter and far too hot in summer. I have an A2A heat pump in Sweden and can have it comfortable for me around 20⁰C in Winter when it's -15C outside and 18⁰C in summer when it's 30⁰C outside.

[@A_barrel]

@@BenIsInSweden no I'm in Missouri USA. Those temps seem reasonable, but where I've been that had heat pumps they'd stopped/couldn't keep up at about 20f so it'd be in the 50s f inside. And 30c+ they would struggle as the air is 85%+ humidity in the summer, walking into a sauna on some days. I use firewood with forced air distribution, I can keep it in the 70s f range with very little wood, and if using small red ceder I accidentally got it into the 90s when it was -2 f outside, had to open the windows lol.

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@A_barrel Heat pumps in the US seem to be trailing behind Europe by a fair margin. 20F or -6C isn't common in most of the UK, but there are cold climate heat pumps that work with full heating capacity down to around -25C (-13F), e.g. Panasonic Tcap series, and that's also without any resistive heating for defrosting.

[@A_barrel]

@@BenIsInSweden Most definitely. I'd bet it's because a lot of people mostly use wood, heating oil/diesel/propane and aside from the biggest, electric, is natural gas, which I don't think you guys use?

[@markcollins457]

As usual knocking it out of the park and hitting a home run with all the correct data.

[@gibbodive140]

Further q please Simon. You mention earlier about 0% VAT for a complete system/refurbish ? Could you expand al little for me please. I have not heard of this before unless it is a new build. Thank you

[@gibbodive140]

I have been doing a little reading and shouldn't really comment further until I have studies this thoroughly ! But it appears that ancillary works, ie upgrading radiators/pipework etc is also included in the tax relief and therefore zero rated for VAT ? If this is the case it should be promoted more. It is a significant saving not applicable to the conventional gas route.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes, complete install is zero rated for vat.

Worcester Bosch CEO, Mr Vony Rajakoba is just trying to do his lobbying job towards the general public...

[@anonanon289]

Some contentious comment, real world cop figures are less than 2 at low temperature when heat pumps most needed. So please provide a graph of cop versus temperature which is a far better indicator of performance. Moreover it is uncertain whether the low temperature attained by heat pumps is sufficient to kill legionella bacteria thus additional electrical input would be needed. And of course the global warming potential of some heat pump fluids approaches 1000 times that of co2 so I'm afraid I won't be installing a heat pump anytime soon.

[@BenIsInSweden]

Got any data for your "less than 2" argument? because for the modern ones in the UK, it's not going to happen. You can find a few graphs on heatpumpmonitor for the data you want. R290 which is used in this heat pump has a GWP of less than 20, and R32 has one of 675. It's worth also pointing out that GWP is only relevant when there are leaks to the refrigeration system. Whereas with a gas boiler you're always leaking CO2 whilst it is running.

[@anonanon289]

@@BenIsInSweden Data in peer reviewed study "Optimal design of low temperature heat pumping technologies and implications to the whole energy system" AV Olympios et al proceedings of ecos 2020. Note cop at freezing temperatures figure 3b. I can assure you the cop of a heat pump varies with ambient temperature, and a cop averaged over a whole year is a poor measure of cost,.

[@BenIsInSweden]

@@anonanon289 So as usual depends on the heat pump. All high-performance ones get a COP of at least 2, even below -10C. R-32 which is now most common in Split systems, still gets a COP of greater than 2 even below -10C. So only the low-performing ones drop below 2. Also no mention of R290 ones, which is what these Valiant ones are.

[@philbattye]

How many days in the UK average -10 C? None where I live.