Work For Free?

[@Hankblue]

20:30 Here's an interesting statistic relating to this subject: "someone whose family has an income of $100,000 is twice as likely to become an artist, actor, musician, or author than someone from a family with $50,000 income. And those from households with an annual income of $1 million are _10 times_ more likely to become artists than those from families with a $100,000 income."

[@TachyBunker]

It's not a statistic, because there's no precision here. What geography, how much is the sample size, etc..

[@Hankblue]

@@TachyBunker Every quotable statistic is like that, but you can read the study if you like, it's called "The Origins of Creativity". Geography is in the US, sample size is huge as it's derived from 150 years of census data.

[@TachyBunker]

@@Hankblue thanks :) Have a great life btw.

[@Hankblue]

@@TachyBunker Same to you 💙

[@steveblumusic]

To any composers who are new to this industry: heed her words. She nails all of this in such a clear and articulate way. To any composers who have been at it for a bit: heed her words. You will learn something, just as I did.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much! That's very kind!

[@KrystofDreamJourney]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer That’s VERY kind, and also very straightforward. You tell absolutely everything from the perspective of a young aspiring musician. As someone who also grew up in Europe and came here - everything you feel and say is 100 percent true !! I hope this could be a turning point in the history of our profession- people like yourself who experienced it all from the bottom up “telling it all”. I forwarded some of your videos to the parents of my students. Thank you so much for everything you post. This is the reality of our profession…

[@Justus_Berger]

I really appreciate that you dare to address the "unpaid internship" issue and the general problem with people taking advantage of weaker ones. I believe many people in the industry feel the same way but wouldn't dare to get vocal about it because they fear bad business consequences.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I think people have become a bit more vocal about it in recent years, especially as living costs rise while wages stay stagnant. There has been quite a movement amongst all assistants in Hollywood (not just in the music department) fighting these types of business practices. The Teammates group (on Facebook and Discord) I'm a part of addresses these issues frequently as well. Thankfully, once you're running your own business and are no longer dependent on an internship / assistantship, you're much more free to speak about these things. I find it shameful that so many others don't. If you see something but don't say anything, you're part of the problem in my opinion.

[@franziskani]

The only solution to this is a strict legal framework with no backdoors. It is pretty much like that in wealthy European countries (not the U.K.). Companies have to pay - and wonder over wonders they can afford to pay if they are forced to do so. As always, in a society that is more than 20 - 100 cave dwellers (that rely on each other for survival so they behave themselves) - people will do the ethical and right thing - with some strong nudges and if they can't help it.. We do not rely on people doing the right thing, when it comes to traffic or property rights etc. - so why would be rely on them _voluntarily_ treating trainees well. The paid interns are productive and help to make profits - or they would not be hired. ... Well, sometimes it is a service for society - especially if teenagers do internships or apprenticeships (that is very common in Germany, Austria, ...) . Many of them at least bring what they cost, but some only cost nerves. But if a company or organization accept someone that has made it to college for an internship and the person turns out to be completely useless - than the fluke rendered a very valuable service, that justifies their pay nontheless. Because then the company has a severe problem with HR / respectively with assessing potential employees. As for teenage apprentices that are complete flukes - that is rare if they have proper mentoring. Some are excellent, many are in the middle and a few are bad. But their employers are usually large companies, they can afford to give back to the community. And that young person may be in a better state as they mature.

[@YuriyPanivan]

"Unpaid Internships" was the most interesting part. Thank you.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@profundisconfutatis8093]

Wealthy people wanting free shit drives me up the wall. I've seen them threaten to pull all their PCs out of their office because the company didn't send them the monitor in the picture with the PC they ordered.(the one clearly marked peripherals not included). He was convinced he was owed a 700$ monitor for free, and was willing to leverage his business to get it. It was that moment I stopped doing tech work for my mom's rich clients. Unironically he tried to offer me an anti sweat grip spray for golfers instead of paying me(I don't golf, what the FUCK would I even do with that?) Not the only experience I've had, but it was certainly the moment I decided I can't stand rich people LOL. Coincidentally, I grew up dirt poor and my best friends dad owned a law firm - and his family was always great, and as I grew older I realized they were an exception to the rule. SHOULD have been obvious considering his other rich friends were assholes and I was always fighting with them haha

[@MrTedw53]

As someone who spent some 20 years writing jingles and the old industrial film score before going to seminary and becoming a United Methodist pastor, I applaud you sense of social justice. You have a very kind, caring and fair worldview. I am Noel enjoying being retired and composing again. Love your videos. As the father of a daughter who is an attorney, I also applaud you’re work for equal opportunities for women.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much for the sweet words! I really appreciate you saying this since all of these issues are dear to my heart. :-)

[@jadonharper1493]

“So what you’re actively keeping it shitty?” That made me laugh out loud because that is literally what the argument boils down to. Thanks for speaking up about these tough topics!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@ferencercseyravasz7301]

You know, I started binge watching your videos yesterday. As a musicologist and a teacher who scored a few documentaries, audiobooks and similar stuff I found them very instructive and I subscribed immediately. I already owe you a lot and I respect and like your style, your art, your attitude. And today with this video I take my hat off to you as a decent human being. Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity and for making my evening.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you, that is so kind of you to say!

[@sekritskworl-sekrit_studios]

This is one of the single-most-brilliant and candid composer pieces which I have ever seen shared to us. I can NOT thank you SO MUCH for discussing this in such GRANULAR detail (all of the way down to the socio-economics). I appreciate you GREATLY.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I'm so glad this resonated with you! Thanks for watching!

[@EricGoetzMusic]

I came here from PERSPECTIVES. Thanks, Anne-Kathrin. This is a terrific summation of the work for free topic. I'll start sending young composers here when they ask me for advice about working for free.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much, I appreciate the kind words!

[@lauramelaniemusic9183]

Great conversation. As a full time musician (pivoting to composing now), this is a frequent conversation in the live music community, which basically boils down to "every job that a hobbyist takes for free by a venue means all the full-time musicians paying the bills are taking a hit." That said, as I am honing my composing skills and building a portfolio, I would be delighted to jump start my new career with a non-paying, great opportunity. However -after viewing your video, I will allow the offer of compensation to first be proffered should I be fortunate enough to find myself in that situation. Thanks for your videos. Oh - and so spot on about showing the value when billing below your norm. I *always* invoice my clients with a line item showing a discount if one is applied.

[@eastriverg3595]

I can't tell you how many times I've been offered peanuts on a low-budget gig, and the people offering were totally offended, basically flabbergasted that I've politely turned it down. I guess big-budget productions can get away with this, which is unfortunate. For much lower-budget productions, I really urge those people to not act like this. I think it really ends up biting them in the ass in the end.

[@jpdussan]

I literally got an unpaid internship offer as I was watching this video - thank you for your honest words and real-time guidance!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Haha, great timing! Thanks for watching!

[@AdonisAletras]

Dear Anne, great video, as always. This time however I feel that your message is quite extraordinary and it deserves to be shared and heard. You are so right when you say that change has to come from the top downwards and not the other way round. This video makes you the voice of your generation of media composers because you have the courage to speak for so many others who (for whatever reasons) don't. It's good to cause a disruption and the powers that be are feeling the earth vibrating under their feet...I know they are. They are realizing, slowly but surely, that their behaviour is a relic of a bygone era that is not tolerated any more-as long as folks like yourself have the guts to expose that shitty behaviour on online platforms. You have our full support at Perspective!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much for your kind words, Adonis! I was a bit nervous about this one but I felt like someone with a platform finally needed to say something and examine the issue from multiple angles. I really appreciate the support I got from all sides and I really hope that the powers that be take this information to heart. I agree that certain things aren't tolerated anymore and it's time for change!

[@Musicman2012Now]

This woman is not only a brilliant composer but provides the truth. Listen to everything she has to say. I believe she will change the industry, if we follow her lead. Just say “no” to the miscreants who want us to work for free. We are just as important as any other worker in any industry. If we don’t shout “no” together…we will go down together.

[@ernstlieber4340]

Anne-Kathrin, I only found your channel recently and I MUST thank you: It is not only about your musical lessons and ideas you are sharing in such a pleasant way, but it is very much about your personality: You always discuss things in a very thoughtful and differenciated way - no black and white, just looking into the "eyes" of reality - things are complex, almost never black or white. You really keep this mindful approach, whatever topic you discuss, be it musical or about business or else. It is great to have a personality like yours talking about things. You are doing it thoughfully and differenciated but still clear. Thank you so much and congrats!

[@joeharrisoncomposer]

Preach it, sis! I had a very stupid experience just a few years ago. I have Anxiety Disorder which often manifests itself in deep insecurity and fear of rejection, so when I interact with someone who seems to like me or the stuff that I'm putting out there, I have this very annoying tendency to go overboard with showing my appreciation for the fact that they like me or my stuff (which often goes hand-in-hand with hating to put other people in negative positions, so I will often go out of my way to make people feel appreciated). Case in point: several years ago I was approached by a very small audio production company to do the score for an audio drama. First off, I was beyond excited about being approached, secondly the money they were offering me was more than I had received for any previous gigs I'd worked on. Don't ask me why, but I stupidly and emphatically responded with "Well are you sure about that payment amount? Because we can renegotiate something less if you need to for budgetary reasons?" It was like an automatic response that I couldn't stop myself from saying. The project lead said "Well, we can discuss it more later." So that was my first mistake. The second mistake was, a day later they sent me a contract for the project, and I stupidly didn't read through it very carefully. But I signed it, and spent the next several months working on the project, and churned out what I felt was my best body of work up to that point; I was deeply proud of it. The production was finished and came out.... A couple months went by... and I still hadn't received any payment. I always hated talking about money, but I scrounged up the courage to send the project lead an email and ask them about the money... to which they responded, to my horror and shock, "Well, you were pretty adamant about being considerate of our budget, so we just put in your contract that you were doing the project FOR FREE." You can imagine how completely and utterly stupid I felt. So yeah. That was the last time I offered to renegotiate payment unprompted AND the last time I skimmed through a contract without reading it carefully.

[@amitweiner8247]

I love your videos, and the way you address controversial topics, like the one here, and your latest video on Mac vs. PC. These are very valuable advices and thanks for taking the time of sharing your knowledge! I would suggest you to address a very hot and controversial topic these days, the "why are there no women as music producers today". I'm sure you see it in your own KZbin audience, which probably made out mostly of men. That's a very pressing issue I believe, and it would be great to have your opinion on it! Keep up your great videos!

[@tomponist]

Very well put, I agree 100%. Glad to hear your take on the unpaid internships as well. People shouldn't be asked to work in those conditions, whatever field you're in. Plus, there are already plenty of things that can make art and music more elitist, like the recent plans in the U.K. to half the funding for music in higher education. I hope this is a notion that can settle in the younger generation of composers who are hiring teams nowadays.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I am very hopeful for our generation and the following ones. There's a lot more awareness and a lot of movements have already started to educate and reform. It just takes time I think.

[@cathbadmusic8489]

Well said Madam. IMO "work for free" is a contradiction in terms. Work = performance of duties in return for money. Exchange of services = bartering. Contributing to a charitable cause = philanthropy. But I disagree that change should come solely from the top down. Saying no and walking away is something we should be quicker to do. Many are fearful of losing an opportunity but this is incorrect: it actually creates opportunity by preventing one's time and skill being wasted on activity with no benefit to oneself. Of course, if one is yet another Berklee scoring grad (or similar) who churns out the same old tired hybrid-hyper-cinematic tropes, then one is very easily replaceable. Better to write to please oneself. If people don't like it they can hire someone else. But if they DO like it, you're the only source of supply. Bernard Hermann would approve, I'm sure...

[@TomStrahle]

I agree with this 100%. Built my career utilizing many of your points. I did a video a few years ago - "Five Reasons I Take a Gig" - for the money, for the connections, for the experience, for friends and for God (charity). Sometimes a gig has many of these features as an added bonus. I still, as an established musician, composer and songwriter, will do things for "free" or some future financial gain. Examples - writing underscore music for TV editors on broadcasting reality shows (not libraries), writing with signed pop artists and producers, occasionally I will play on a game or film audition for composers for whom I already work, if I can help them get the gig we both win. One time I played classical guitar on a wedding piece for a composer that I really wanted to work for, I added bass and did the best job I could. I offered to do it for free but he paid me anyway. Heard nothing for three years. Then he called me for a feature. I've done his last ten features.

[@robertomengoli9233]

Anne, thank you so much. I appreciate so much that you can make us (next generation of composers) understand how horrible the "system" can be. With this kind of videos at least we can prepare! I know that probably for composers like you a few years older It must have been very tough. So I just want in some way show you gratitude, becuase you're putting some lights into a path where, for me at least, I couldn't see anything and I was just going to throw myself into, not knowing what to expect. 💛

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I'm so glad you found this helpful in preparing for this career path!

[@MichelSchallenberg]

Might as well be that the "paying your dues" thing will backfire pretty hard for some people as soon as it stops being acceptable to offer unpaid internships. In the end all it does is creating a threshold than only people with sufficient financial support can pass. It's so cool that you speak out about this stuff, I think it will change a lot of things longterm.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I sure hope the right people are listening and can possibly examine their business models instead of getting offended or feeling attacked. Our community needs to do better as a whole and while I have hope for the future generations to bring positive change, I think a lot can also be done right now if everyone is willing. Many things needs to change in this industry and stop being acceptable, in our sub-field in particular.

[@adrianmasound]

I loved this video. I loved how you remark the differences between social classes, how certain career paths are elitist and just for certain fortunate people, the importance of covering basic human rights and how this video slowly evolves from advice for aspiring composers to an open letter to abuser employers. Thank you for this video.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching! I’m glad my words resonated with you! :-)

[@franziskani]

The "unpaid internship" problem exists also in U.S. Congress. Members of the Senate and the House do have unpaid interns - so guess who are the only people whose parents can finance their cost of living so that they can work for free for the politcal elites of the most powerful country of the world. it is hard to get in anyway. I once saw a video of a woman who deeply felt this was her place when she was twenty. She said: Then I was naive, I did not realize that these internships were only for the children of well connected and wealthy families. When I got the rejection letter, I was so sure this could only be a mistake that I called the office manager. In my persistent naivité I must have been very convincing, she said: You can come to D.C. and you have 5 minutes. I should add that she was from a middle class family, that was just not politically active / connected (no one she knew had ever worked in that sphere) and her family was doing O.K. but not very wealthy. So she was not from a poor background - and she must have inherited some talent. Anyway, she got the position. And somehow was able to finance expensive life in D.C.

[@JonRMohr]

This is a really solid video. I've heard it from both ends, that you should charge for everything / take every opportunity you can etc etc and this video really lays out a more realistic way of looking at this kind of thing. I feel like everyone getting into music/composing should watch this. Also that unpaid internships part was top notch.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching! I try to be as realistic and nuanced as possible when I do opinion pieces. I'm glad you find this useful!

[@ZachHeyde]

This is fantastic, Anne--thank you for advocating for the value of interns and composers in an open and honest way. Really appreciate you sharing your insights!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching! I'm glad my words resonate with you!

[@yeleukenov]

Thank you for touching upon the unpaid internships. I'd like to touch on the issue for foreigners from developing nations. (TL;DR - at least read the last paragraph, thanks). I've done an unpaid internship at Remote Control Productions and if not for 2 good relationships I made, I would consider it not worth it because you pay 700 USD to the university to be allowed to intern for free (a requirement for foreigners), your time and >1500 USD for a car. You do errands unrelated to music. You get a to sit in with a composer who might explain his workflow or might just sit there as if you don't exist. That's if you're lucky he is at the studio this season. Since you may not afford a car like me, the question of being hired is already solved. The demand for unpaid internships like the one at RCP is high, which doesn't necessarily reflect their real values because people don't know what these are until they set their foot there. The value that people do see is that they can get hired and jobs give visas and opportunities to start a family. Some, unlike me, even imagine themselves as being "whalethy" composers one day. Is this value worth the risk? Perhaps for some and was at some point, but odds now for foreigners are stacked in favor of the house. It's a gamble, where you pay 700USD + 20 hours a week of missed opportunity cost + car usage + anxiety from trying to be liked by everybody. The culture of unpaid internships is to make an intern submit to the new reality that the greed of upper echelons forges (while receiving free catering service!) Someone who submits to this reality will one day be seduced to forge this reality for a new acolyte. And this will become the new American Dream - because you will have to be overworkingly underslept to believe it.

[@SaraGaliana]

Thank you for talking about this topic, it helps to clarify when to work for free. Unpaid internships... I hope at somepoint nobody has to go through that.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

I'm glad this is helpful. Let's hope for a better future!

[@FilmCompos3r]

Well said, especially everything in the "unpaid internship" section and beyond.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@ToreGThomassen]

This was a great video and it's really great that someone finally speaks about this (internships)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@musicmaniac1949]

This is all well said. I really enjoyed this. Something to remember is that you have spent years honing a craft, developing your skills and talent, and sometimes you get to present this as a gift to a friend or a cause. We are very fortunate to be able to do this for people. But this has nothing to do with working for 'free' at your job. I believe that this is a separate issue. If you feel that, for your own reasons, you would like to do a job, then this is nobody's business but yours. And it's not going to affect anyone else no matter what they try to tell you. You're just their excuse if they can't get work. Talent, like water, finds it's own level.

[@mannmusicaproductions7093]

That discount tip on the invoice is a great one. I do regret not taking a project once for a very low fee with a director that became successful.

[@victoriabeits6520]

Anne you are so smart and wise, calm and self confident. Thank you for your insight on this touching and sometimes painful issue.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching and for your kind words!

[@WilliamMorrisMusic]

Interesting and well argued. Pitching for free is one area I'd love to see some advancement in. In the trailer world I'm seeing more publishers pushing for kill fees on custom work, which is a start.

[@VickenIshkhanian]

First morning video with coffee, what a great start you gave me today! I have the highest respect for your opinions regarding this matter which touches many aspects of real life of many musicians and artists. This video should be played at graduation ceremonies. 🤗🙏🏻

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much! I'm glad this resonated with you.

[@adeletothez]

Thank you for addressing unpaid internships!! Sometimes I feel music is the worst industry for getting away with not paying interns. It’s important to speak out about it. And the millionaires getting free labor 👀 ☕️

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching! I'm glad the topic and discussion resonate with you!

[@dodzidenudzakuma]

Your videos and presentations are so good! And the discussion on how we've been exploited as a generation was so needed. It has to be talked about. The struggle is real. Thanks for what you're doing for the community.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching and for your kind words!

[@JulieElvenMusic]

Your videos are always so well structured and informative! Thank you for sharing your insight Anne-Kathrin! Also agree 100% on what you said about unpaid internships and the socioeconomic and mindset change we need in this regard!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate the kind words! I really have hope for our generation to make that desperately needed change. :-)

[@coalescence3835]

Hey, it's Julie Elven.

[@marklholloway]

Nice video 🖤 Aside from internships, if someone is going to sell a product and increase their value from the work you are doing, there is no reason not to be paid. Whether it’s direct payment from an invoice or negotiating royalties based on a contract, it is important to be paid for the work you do.

[@raphaelcosta6006]

I couldn’t have put it any better! I agree 100%

[@jonathanbrooker8193]

Always good to hear another’s perspective on this topic. I’ve turned down many a project because the director doesn’t have sufficient budget, or is unknown, or has a bad reputation, or is only undertaking a one off project.

[@yuyaoshangguan2159]

The most pleasant surprise every morning is to see you post a new video. Well, from my personal experience, although I have worked in the industry intermittently for more than 5 years, sometimes I still choose to work for free. Because no matter what, I am a rookie who just got the composition master's degree. I was forced to work for free and accept low-cost jobs. Because I need to let more people know me. It must be good to have a paid job, but for unpaid internships, I may also accept it for the same reasons. Another thing that I accept an unpaid internship since the U.S. OPT from university (Optional Practical Training) has a time limitation. If I can not get a job before within 90 days, I have no legal status in the U.S. Due to covid-19, the economy has become bad and it has become difficult to find a composition job, especially for interns. This is what I worry about recently.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Haha, I don't think anyone has ever considered me on their screen a pleasant surprise in the morning. That's lovely of you to say! As an immigrant myself I also understand the whole OPT and visa situation - I've been there myself. I might address this in a different video or Q&A actually since it's related but sort of a unique challenge to immigrants.

[@Frank.Zimmermann]

Hey Anne-Kathrin! This video is an absolute gem in terms of content! You got it exactly right, I absolutely agree with you. Thank you for being so open about these issues-it's extremely helpful, and I really appreciate it! :)

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

So glad this video resonated with you!

[@fusion-music]

"You create the status quo." Many fine points. Leave the world a better place than you found. Great topic.

[@AkaTengu]

I am now just seeing this video and learned a TON! I feel more confident in how to approach some projects I'm interested in. That said I have been really enjoying your content and teaching style, but this was some next level real talk and delivered like a boss. Much respect and thank you so much!

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

I worked for free for a charity acting for separated dad's rights as well in the past. I also worked for free on a project where everybody was also working for free just because of the stars in the eyes of the person leading that project when she was talking about it. I think it is important to follow our own conscience about our boundaries regarding that matter. I agree a 100% with you about the class system. 👏 I think that every person deserve respect, and putting value to someone by respecting the time they give you should be a norm! Money is nothing, you can have tones of money one day and lose everything the next day. Time is the most precious thing. Respecting a person is respecting the time they give you! But you know, if some people doesn't want to change the way things goes, let's do it ourselves. Starting by moving a little stone everyday. You are a beautiful person! Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much for your kind words! Let's be the change we want to see in the world! :-)

[@snattack]

I totally agree with everything in this video, and I utilize the same philosophy now that I ended up at an audio director role when we hire talents/musicians. First and foremost for the moral reason, but a bonus is actually better results. I’ve had similar thoughts as you have, and tried simplifying this decision making throughout my career dividing everything into three stacks: 1. Money 2. Goodwill/Cred 3. Heart/Recreation/Education/Charity Preferably the job has full points on all three stacks, but that rarely happens. For a job being worth it, they need to balance each other. Preferably, a job needs at least two stacks filled. So if there is no 1, 2+3 needs to be high. No 1+2, 3 needs to be REALLY high. It’s not a perfect system (and not really rocket science :), but it’s a quick way of determining if a job is worth it ”on the paper” or not. Simply put (as you’ve already discussed in this excellent video): A pro-bono gigg as an assistant will in most cases only balance itself for a short while. In the long run, it will drain out 3. for several reasons. And will rarely add anything to 2. /All the best from Sweden Andreas Hedlund, Orchestrator

[@PeterBatah]

Good morning and thank you for offering your insight. Have a safe and wonderful day!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@fortissimoX]

Wow, you've really sad a lot of things that most people wouldn't dare to say. Thank you, the world needs more nice and honest people like you! I wish you all the best!

[@wesboundmusic]

I'm glad that you're so outspoken about the inequalities that are actively being upheld by those whose careers have put them into a position where they get to kind of "dictate the rules" - or so they'd like to think. While it was a bit of a personal sting to hear something I had been aware of for very long, i.e. that only those coming from a fairly well-to-do background - i.e. with some wealth to fall back on - get to even consider entering this line of work (and thus crushing my late aspirations as a result... ), nonetheless I find it all the more important and necessary to raise awareness for the "dynamics" that have established in this branche of the music industry (or really in all of the music industry and not limited to the first, either). I enjoy your being reflective of your work and your own path until here and it's golden to hear you talk about it candidly.

[@MalikAmer87]

I fell in love 😍 with every word you said , you are so humble , elegant , with a lovely mindset and persona , please don’t stop making these great videos 🙏.

[@thisislance]

Thank you for commenting on the type of charitable and education-oriented work you do. As a household with a strong charitable focus (my spouse worked full time for ALS Association for more than a decade), it's a nice reminder of the person behind the functional knowledge that you're offering on KZbin.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you! Donating any type of resource (time, money, services) to charity and education can be such great food for the soul. :-)

[@cjp68]

Excellent video ! Everything you cover is truly well spoken. I agree, sometimes free work is Important especially for new composers. Whether the film is a blockbuster or not? The opportunity to gain experience for new composers is valuable. It is how I got my start. Short films and small productions, opened up the world of "Production" for me (see and interact behind the scenes).

[@IsabellaCLau125]

What a brilliant video Anne-Kathrin! I don't know how you continue to churn out such consistently valuable, detailed, nuanced and, most importantly, genuine content. You're one of the few composers I've seen who actually take the time to fully break things down for those on the other side of the fence and really communicate the realities of being a composer, beyond just making broad statements and lazy generalisations. I'm sure any young composer (myself included!) would be so lucky to work as an intern or assistant for someone like you!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much, Isabella! That's really great to hear - I question most of the content I put out and revise the script multiple times to be a nuanced and concise as possible. And even then I'm insecure about my presentation. So it's always good to hear that my intention is coming across very well. :-)

[@IsabellaCLau125]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer you're very welcome! And rest assured your content is on a great trajectory as it is, just keep being you and doing what you do best!

[@RaashiKulkarni]

She 👏🏽 said 👏🏽 what 👏🏽 she 👏🏽 said! 👏🏽 Thank you for sharing this, Anne. 💛

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@lattetown]

This! Your insight on socio-economic diversity and paid internships is refreshing. I'm glad I found your videos...you are the kind of person we all hope to work with.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@MarsenK1]

Anne-Kathrin, thank you not only for the music industry related opinion, but especially for your passionate illustrated more political part in this topic. I couldn´t agree more.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@soundtreks]

Great video. Everyone must assess each project and what the benefits would be- sometimes there is a long term benefit. But it also depends on what stage a person is at in their career.

[@markquavertune2003]

I approach music making with my own sort of economy . To me I like to write out of life's experiences . So it is just for personal reasons .I do take time though ! The motivation is quite important .So for me and I mean just me the opportunity to work at music production with out monetary concearns has a sence of freedom . When I was young I would have liked to have done music composition but never had the tools that are available today .With age comes a different sence of satisfaction and motivation .

[@shayneoneill1506]

The other problem with offering free labour is it kind of underestimates budgets. Films often budget 5-15% of their budget to go on music. If you walk in and go "I'll do it or free" the first thing they'll be thinking is "Whats so bad about this guys gig that he doesnt feel he should get paid for it?". You just wont get respect and you'll come across as naive and even incompetent. Also people tend tio forget that if this is to be your job, it needs to cover your living expenses at least far enough that you can ride it out to the next gig. So like if you are getting two commissions a month, you really ought be billion for 2-3 weeks work. The money guys understand this, and they will respond to this as simply an expense alongside all the other expenses. Also, geet an Agent a Lawtwe. Jusr.... do it. Let someone else do the hard stuff so you can focus on blasting beautiful musicc and dangerous rhythms out yr skullcap.

[@polkmusic]

A really educational video. Thanks for your honest opinion. Its great to hear from a real working composer.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@speakingmusic]

I've done work for free--for friends and the like. I'm a software programmer for a living. Composing, while my passion, it isn't my career (yet). That said, I've also been paid for gigs. Because I don't need the pay to survive, I can be picky about what projects I do, and what I charge for them. That said, I am NOT getting my name out there with any real success, so what pay I might get is not going to be anywhere near what I might get if I was better known. The key here is, even if I'm working for free, I am getting something out of it. If it's for a friend, I get the enjoyment of doing something nice for a friend. Anne does a fabulous job of covering all the nuanced options available, including the pros and cons.

[@C.Scholl]

THANK YOU! You are beautiful and I mean it in every way! The knowledge you share and the way you look at life is admirable! I have “ composed” literally thousands of tracks, but have very little to no knowledge about the musical theory. I thank god for your video’s and binge them as you have a very honest no fluff way to explain how to create film scores. The playing part is not the problem but setting up a template that works within FL20 is the biggest problem I face. Unfortunately I have a problem learning by reading dry theory, I learn best when seeing and hearing how it’s done. You have gained a loyal follower! Thank you, stay you! Have a great day, Chris.

[@kbdreath]

Thank You Anne for this, many excellent points you made. It blows my mind why somebody established would take advantage of new composer leveraging their position of power. It is sad, and it is part for the selfishness out there, but especially music or art related industries. In my humble opinion, if the work done has the quality required and meet the expectations then some compensation should be arranged even if it is only symbolic. If the work still lacking then a proper advise and mentoring should follow. Thanks again !

[@petersvan7880]

Thank you Anne-Kathrin, your videos & opinion are a real asset to the community.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much!

[@ThomasFoguenne]

Thank you very much, Anne-Kathrin, for your nuanced insight on the question!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@MusicalWizardryMarcoIannello]

This absolutely hits the nail on the head . I know how many times you have voiced these OPINIONS of yours, and I have found myself always in agreement with them (unlike a certain RK 😁). I do free music work for exactly the same reasons you mention (I have been working with a brilliant filmmaker, who eventually started mentioning about paying me, and also apologising for having me work for free on his past projects). The "Unpaid Internship" is the pinnacle of this discourse of yours, I liked when you mentioned about ordering takeaway, and tipping the delivery person, which immediately brought to my mind how we NEVER go to a restaurant/hot dog stand/pub, and not pay for what we order/consume. Why would working in the industry be different from that? Why is it acceptable to make people starve and live rough, and even get sick? Those with the means and possibilities really must change that perspective, instead of keep repeating old adages that do not make any sense at all, keep championing that these sorts of labour must be paid, Anne-Kathrine, I shall definitely continue being amongst your supporters!

[@franziskani]

No one would work for free in the service industry it is not pleasant work. But there are highly trained musicians burning to show what they can and their line of work is pleasant - so they can dangle the carrot. Also: a waitress in a restaurant can do some other work that does not need a lot of training. There are chances that she would not do worse (pay and conditions) in another profession. But trained musicians or composer cannot switch to another profession. Not without feeling that they are missing their purpose and all their training was pretty much in vain when it comes to turning that into pay. So there is much more demand for the few slots that are open. And that is exploited because it _can_ be exploited. and it is sugarcoated.

[@1hotday1]

Wow! You make excellent points about how to treat people. You just gained a different level of respect from me and sure others. You are inspiring. Thank you Anne!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you, that's very kind of you!

[@NikolaiMusicChannel]

Bravo! Excellent nuanced take on it :-) Hate the "it was shitty in the past, so it should be shitty now" arguments. We used to live in caves and hit each other in the head with clubs, doesn't mean we should still do it... Love that you're tackling this bull by grabbing it by the horns!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@gerardofrias3532]

Thanks for making a crude and straight forward reality check on the subject!

[@davidsinclair699]

Thanks for a balanced presentation. I agree with you that pro-bono work and discounted work are an investment in your future or a donation to a worthy cause that you are passionate about. If there is no perceived future return (which is sometimes a sense of contributing to something good/worthwhile) then you should be doing something else, especially if this is your business.

[@EdwinDPZ]

My first job wasn't free but it was super low pay, I was still in high school at the time so I didn't realize how low it was, but thankfully it went from a small little webseries to a legit series and the same team behind it has thrown me movies and other shows so it really paid off.

[@manfredmelcher7803]

Thank you. As always, your videos are filled with wisdom and inspiration!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thanks for watching!

[@spinelldete]

Well, you nailed it. But this is an old problem, and it stopped my would-be career as a film composer 30 years ago. I just could not afford any more to write (and play and record and mix) the music for free or something like a small handling fee, hoping that promises from producers and public TV executives would lead into what I was needing: a certain annual amount of income to make a living. Things have not changed in my opinion but the resources to make music for film are available to almost anyone now, so there are a hundred times more people standing in the line than it was in 1990. But now everyone has the chance to get heard, be it YT, soundcloud, insta, whatever. So nobody should get demoralized. As Karl Valentin said: Art is beautiful, but requires a lot of work. And this work should be paid.

[@DMIXMusic]

So much truth in this video. Thank you. Earned a sub!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Awesome, thank you!

[@darrenvegamusic]

I'm so happy that composers are willing to talk about these kinds of ideas. I'm kinda inlove with your discussions and other stuff in this channel. Thanks and keep on making stuff!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much!

[@JohannesRiedlMusic]

You said it very well! If you‘re excited for a project and maybe see big potential in the future, either with the filmmaker or with the film, it is fine to do a pro bono project. And unpaid internships are horrible...when I have an intern and he/she is practically helping me, he or she will get paid for their help it‘s as easy as that. 21:35 we should leave the world better for the next gen! Now turns out this part switches into a great motivational speech 😄💪 A great Video 🙏

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Hahaha, thank you! The motivational speech part was accidental but I figured I'd leave it in to give my rant a positive spin at the end. Glad my words resonated with you!

[@1981KJan]

Amazing video. And how it transforms from an opinion to an appeal in the internship-section. I totally agree with this...

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you! It somehow naturally developed into this. I'm glad it comes across as an appeal (which it is meant to be) rather than a rant. The last thing I'd want is for someone to see this as "Angry Millennial is angry".

[@1981KJan]

@@AnneKathrinDernComposer No, you say clearly, what you have to say. And in general you do not seem like someone, who does pity herself too much. People can get offended by this video, but on the other hand, those who do, do it, because, they feel caught on this topic.

[@LiraeNoir]

Very well argued point about unpaid internship. Nuance and on point. Thanks for that!

[@Renaxelo]

I love your mindset, you deserve a lot of respects.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@IFeeeeelGood]

I relate so much with the part at 20:00 about the social differences. It's the truth that not anybody thinks about

[@tobiasH1971]

Thanks; very educating, very clear thoughts, not only for composers :) And more: my deep respect for your time you invest to share your thoughts, it reveals a lot about your character.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate the kind words!

[@jonathanparham]

thanks for your frankness and honesty. This one and your video where you show the splits with writers is good

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@mithramusic5909]

I already liked you with your helpful videos, calm and genuine delivery, and willingness to share your experiences with others, but when it got to the middle of this video and you started talking about unpaid internships and more systemic issues and...well...you got a sub out of me!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you, I appreciate the kind words!

[@Kevin-ie7vi]

This is absolute truth and so appreciated !! Thank you Anne

[@davidthomas7644]

Thank you Anne-Kathrin for this video, I agree 100 % We have to make choices to make the world better

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@SpaghettiLord1010]

Thank you so much for this info, I've felt similar and I've learnt quite a bit for the future, since I'm just starting, this is extremely important for me! Shared with my buds, keep it up!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Glad this was helpful! Thank you for watching and sharing!

[@genuinefreewilly5706]

As an old semi retired dude I appreciate your perspective. I'd say its largely true, that not only the 1% percent but also upper middle class composers could do more to change out the prospects for young artists. I will say the race to the bottom has been going on a long time and its far worse now

[@tutubeos]

I completely agree. This video is a manifest of music and freedom 💙

[@victotronics]

Good job on calling out the generation of your elders, to which I'm not always proud to belong.

[@lorenzoemanuel2343]

Great video!! I love the insight. There is a lot of grey area in between the two extremes. Thanks for making this video!

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you for watching!

[@Peethoven]

Very well balanced discussion. Excellent insight from different perspectives.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@LFOVCF]

People never mind paying for quality. My job isn't music, it's a service, but some are happy to let me burn gas/petrol on getting to them, and my time, but ask the question, "do I owe you anything" (Grr!) if the job was like 2 minutes long. My answer is..."Just for my time, knowledge and fuel, so that's £X" Never sell yourself short. Yes, I have done a job for free if passing, and a good customer, because it creates good feeling, but on their bigger jobs, definitely put the bill in. We have a phrase here in the UK, it's called...taking the piss. This means people who take advantage of your good nature, and don't even offer, and do this multiple times. ("I helped him out before, now he's back every week expecting a freebie, he's starting to 'take the piss' now)(we also use this phrase if someone mocks you in a friendly way. 2 different contexts) Get rid of those people. I believe that you should always give more than expect, it sets you apart, but don't give so much that they expect it next time. Stand up straight, give your bill, and NEVER justify yourself or the bill.

[@seanbeeson3853]

I like the fact you can say uncomfortable things some consider "taboo" . There are many facets to the idea that music composition is not worth much . Coming from the world of rock and metal I've seen how there are many making music , But not much of the "great " stuff anymore .Growing up listening to all the great classic rock groups , there was a magic element to it .I just don't feel that with a lot of modern music . I wonder if you see the same thing on the orchestration side ? Where a lot the techniques used are a bastardization of something that was considered great . And the ideas that made those magic moments of music was the fact that they broke the mold . Are there any composers you think are " breaking the mold " ? And doing something you would consider original ideas . This is a discussion I have had with many of my musician friends . I have been writing music since i was a teenager . However I am fairly new to the virtual orchestration world . Your videos are interesting and I appreciate intellectual discussions . Thank you :)

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

about the duty to change you are absolutely right, do a cut for #shorts and i send it to my yousician boss

[@serge1336]

Pro bono... Yes, everytime! Ich mag total deine Einstellung. Bin ich total bei dir. Liebe Grüße aus der alten Heimat.

[@dariusofwest]

Super informative and thoughtful as always! :D

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!

[@Dragens2]

I also feel like Internship should be payed but I also understand that some people are driven by money so are not going to that internship because of passion but go because of prestige and the money they think they get from a millionaire. To prevent that, offering less money will filter out the greed and see if you are willing to do what has to be done out of passion. BUT I think that its stupid to pay NOTHING. that is something that is absolutely mad. And then again. When there is no benefit in that internship in the end even though you did it for free then its worthless.

[@georgeadel]

Ann.. If you are not a talented composer, you would be a talented teacher! 😊

[@bartnettle]

Training someone is expensive especially if you have to pay them to learn; it could be a failure of education that the Internship should be included in their exorbitant fees. Schooling someone should be a paid for service and bring back the Apprenticeship where the person does get paid under an exchange for time served contract.

[@rbingraham]

Anne, you're fantastic, and so is this video! Especially, your calling all of us out as a society.

[@AnneKathrinDernComposer]

Thank you!