'Working Class' Is NOT An Identity | Ash Sarkar meets China Miéville | Downstream

[@zarathustracave5732]

Nietzsche once said “we have to learn to feel differently”. He saw art & music as a conduit to feeling differently. While Art won’t organise political campaigns etc it does prepare the soil for organising. Art can be about the creation of values and often is. Many see the world almost as a 90s action film with moral binaries and nefarious foreigners. Once there’s a critical mass of Art pointing towards a particular kind of morality it becomes engrained. Otherwise efforts to create propaganda through Art & music would have been dropped a very long time ago.

[@billhicks8]

Exactly, it is more about cultural trends and "zeitgeists" than it is about singular, intentional pieces of art transforming the world through their narrative. To think it is the latter is almost a "Great Man Theory" of literature, which is generally out of touch. And yes, the space to generate some finer, differentiated forms of feeling, allowing empathy to develop, etc, rather than trying to lead society as a whole through some tortuous political program with only a veneer of what might only vaguely be called "art".

[@zarathustracave5732]

@@hazelwray4184 I’m a 19th century kind of guy Hazel. Still valid though!

[@anthonyfurlong4972]

"Otherwise efforts to create propaganda through Art & music would have been dropped a very long time ago" explain this further? Art and propaganda are persistent bed-fellows? Art combined with morality have a hiden totalitarian agenda or affect? Modern reality a 90's simulation? Interesting talking heads - I reckon 👍

[@anthonyfurlong4972]

@@grantkerr8298 the speaker mentions sado masochism by the right - theres a lot of that from the left. As for the current Russia treatment by the left - is the left in the 'free West' in reality leftist?

[@happinesstan]

And yet it has always been art and literature that defines civilisation. and since art and literature is a never ending cycle of updates how do we ever hope to evolve? Or are we satisfied that this is the best we can be?

[@hainish2381]

Brilliantly conduced interview. Thank you so much for bringing Miéville to the show!

[@0211brucetube]

25:40 is an interesting question and the answer may be a tad rude (sorry Ash) - it's because you work in a university and journalist environment, full of rich people and wankers. Class produces affect and solidarity through shared crap conditions and struggle. A group of warehouse workers getting shafted by a supervisor will take their shared situation to heart. Working class people who have basically left a working class environment, forming cross-class relationships etc., are naturally going to have a more complicated feeling towards class.

[@jackdeniston6150]

Not rude comrade, true. The arrogant ignorance of people who have never worked hard, or even physically. Really, the results of communism are manifest.

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

The working class carry a legacy of inherited trauma, in common with other "identities". A University education makes no difference. If you come from a background of people who were literally murdered for profit, then you are aware that the alternative to living your "best life" is work that is dangerous, dirty and/ or low status. The middle-classes organise to ensure that failure is a completely different experience for them. It's not about individuals, education, and income. Working class people have a greater need for community. Hence a heightened attachment to a particular place, even when these places are held back and impoverished.

[@KS-em1lp]

In my opinion, you’re completely right on this. Shared struggle and shared suffering is one of the main aspects working class solidarity and unity etc.

[@happinesstan]

@@GlasPthalocyanine Abslutely, the working class [what's left of them] needs community, the middle class need insurance. The ruling classes need insurance payments to invest because they keep losing it all.

[@TheYopogo]

I'm from what I think you'd call a privileged working class background. Either that or lower middle class. Parents were shop floor in a food plant until it got shut down, but they owned their own home (or rather my agricultural worker grandparents did and it was a multi-generational household), I went to university and had piano lessons and we had holidays and things, now I'm in an ambiguous job (newly qualified teacher in an inner city comprehensive). I can't afford to live anywhere other than in shared, private rented housing, until recently I was on minimum wage, I'm in unbelievable amounts of debt, I don't have a car; but I'm also quite arty-farty, I like classical music and poetry and modernist literature and stuff. But I really do feel class in my bones in the way that Ash is saying she doesn't; I see it all the time. For comparison I'm also gay and that inflects my identity a lot too (the left will abide a regal queer 😘), but I can't honestly say I feel it in my bones any more strongly than the objective fact of my economic status moves me to feel instinctive solidarity with other people from working class backgrounds.

[@jenschristopher6261]

Wow. What a fantastic conversation between one of my three favourite authors and one of my three favourite journalists. This was absolutely fantastic.

[@KJ-je6yu]

Really appreciated all the words you both spoke. Helped me grapple with some of my own thoughts about navigating the world as an anti-Capitalist in 2022. Solidarity from Sydney, Australia. Love all your stuff Ash!

[@chrishorner7679]

One of the very best interviews Novara and Ash, have done. A consistently fascinating interview that is more like a developing conversation. Mieville is a superb interlocutor. Brilliant.

[@juhavantzelfde]

I have nothing more to want from Novara Media after this interview. Love seeing Ash and China on screen together.

[@jonathan4835]

They're Trotskyists, not Communists. Trotskyism is a pernicious and false ideology that undermines Communism

[@Glaiket]

I'm absolutely appalled that they had him on after all the allegations and the legal bullying of the women making them.

[@queeniegreengrass3513]

@@Glaiket that was not proven. Much of the allegations were iffy. There was a lot of political partisan online smears too (Mieville had run for parliament iirc). It was noted at the time that people would recieve comments on forums and other sites with these alleged misdeeds often copy and pasted.

[@matthewvaughan1532]

What a brilliant conversation. I'm totally a SF and Speculative Fiction geek but couldn't get into Perdido Street Station and never went back to CM. Interestingly they touch on "should be favourites that aren't" in the conversation and this is one of mine. Anyway, 20 years later, Perhaps i should have another go, I certainly love what he had to say here. Think I'll start with A Spectre, Haunting first and then maybe one of his stand alones before heading back to New Crobuzon. Any recommendations gratefully received. As for Ash Sarkar, what a superb interviewer. I love that she can ask what a word means or admit that she's 'only just framed the question' or say, 'I'm open to the possibility I just said something dumb' It speaks of an intellectual honesty and self-awareness that is not always apparent in journalism.

[@bumblebeeatbreadloaf1286]

I actually kind of got into socialism through reading science fiction. Reading a lot of sci-fi forced me to think different worlds and scenarios. I read many works where the technology was fantastic but socially things had barely progressed anywhere which left me wanting for something more. Eventually The Culture series by Iain M. Banks was the one that gave me a sense for a better world and pushed me towards leftism and anti-capitalism.

[@Hellserch]

Inspiring stuff. I met Iain M Banks at a book signing in 1992 at Waterstones in Oxford Street, London. He was warm, accompany most importantly, funny. We had a compressed chat (his pres agent was giving me evils throughout) and I asked him if he thought the Culture was an ideal socialist society. He shocked me by saying that he thought the real thing could be even better; he had many reasons for thinking this. Great bloke.

[@nicholaskostopulos8631]

Yet another excellent interview. NM is on a roll. Ash and Anton are creating a network in front of our eyes.

[@mynameisjoejeans]

I could listen to these two talk all day. Everything from the content, to the forms of expression, to the sound of this interview is beautiful.

[@joshuahmaxfield5729]

One of the best interviews so far. Can't wait for more.

[@valq10]

I remember Zizek talking about the 'untouchables' in India - when asked what the aim of their campaign was, they retorted 'our aim is to no longer exist'. Whereas the politicisation of oppressed sexual or ethnic identity results in their transformation into sites of joy (hence pride and carnival), the politicisation of the oppressed class results in its total abolition.

[@therealrobertbirchall]

We need to abolish the ruling class

[@valq10]

@@therealrobertbirchall yes but abolition of a ruling class is the abolition of class as such

[@therealrobertbirchall]

@@valq10 true, so whomever wins the 'class war' takes all. Then society will divide again on the lines of those who have the wealth and power and those who don't. All over the globe Archaeologists find the remains of poor staved wretches along those of Kings and Emperors in the same deposits from the same era. Humanity divide is man's natural condition, the Romantic thinkers imagine this can be fixed by us all sharing some sort of cultural fusion, we classical thinkers look at the data and say the human race is run.

[@emilianosintarias7337]

that's right, but it must go further- we can't know what sexual or ethnic identities are oppressed and what aren't. So it is really the principle of universalism kept on hand, ready to make a site of solidarity as needed in any situation. The current left doesn't get this, they think they can keep track of thousands of identities in 180 countries and all the changing dynamics, like some kind of stock index of power relations

[@ruffey1748]

To be clear, oppressed sexual and ethnic identities are still oppressed, we just have parties alongside it.

[@DanielRetureau]

The Manifesto was written at the beginning of modern capitalism, we read it when it nears its end due to the climate an biological crises caused by a system totally inhuman and irrational. I was 15 when I read it, and I read much more since, I am 78 now and it helped me to understand the society, the exploitation, the commodity fetichism when I read the Capital (more than once) later on. The Capital is a very complex and difficult scientific work, and not everything we face today was studied in Marx work, but the essential, fundamental is definitely there. We have to start from here, integrate new realities of race, gender, classes, all the evolution of superstructures and dominant ideology permanence behind apparent changes. The ruling class still rules, it is so clear in the UK conservative policies. Democratic management of production means by workers is still on the agenda, to satisfy needs and stop the destructive crisis of the capitalist system.

[@DaveE99]

One change since Marx is they created a managerial class. Because for instance monarchies that shared power between aristocracy and priests and church and business leaders, actually was much more stable. Like the rich know this stuff to a degree and act accordingly.

[@ChirpoTunes]

This conversation was way out of my intellectual pay grade but really inspiring regardless. Thanks to everyone involved.

[@MJK808]

It's amazing this man doesn't understand this. While his thoughts are very interesting he's either doing himself and the people he wants to reach a disservice or he's being disengenuous in his intent. This is clear from his choice of delivery.

[@antispindr8613]

@@MJK808 At last, someone willing to question the way this interview helped (mis)inform the debate and set the agenda

[@HereIsMyStuff35]

@@MJK808 How is China being disingenuous? I'm honestly interested to read your explanation.

[@alan2102X]

@@HereIsMyStuff35 I don't know that he is being "disingenous", but he is clearly speaking on a high intellectual and oft-abstract level, barely comprehensible or incomprehensible, and unrelatable, to most members of the working class as well as a lot of other people. Kinda like listening to a postmodernist. He is not pomo but the level of his words resemble it.

[@Hellserch]

Just by saying this you prove you are clearly intellectually able to understand what’s at stake here.

[@bumblebeeatbreadloaf1286]

How did I miss this? Been a fan of his fiction for a long time.

[@gravesplendour3481]

It feels unbelievable to me, having grown up in the north in the 80s and 90s that there are people who don't have a strong sense of what it means to be working class.

[@antispindr8613]

And on and on he goes. Sorry, but what planet did they get this guy from? Getting down to Earth, might he is not have asked questions such as: when did the idea that 'there is No Such Thing as Society' take hold? For, instead of taking slight digs at the left, might he not have mentioned real issue - such as the defeat of the Miners or the sell off of council housing?

[@sigil5772]

I don't know why you've visited Novara if it's somehow surprising to you to hear a couple of well-read left wing thinkers having a philosophical/intellectual discussion about art and culture and how that relates to politics. I would also venture that you and Grave Splendour above are right in one sense to tacitly refer back to Thatcher in terms of her being the architect of the destruction of the old notion of the working class; but those who were born this century are as exploited by capitalism, if not more so, than those who suffered under Thatcher's regime two decades before they were born. I agree with Ash it's still a workers-v-capitalists issue whether or not they like nutmeg in their Caffe Nero.

[@jaijai5250]

@@sigil5772the sooner so called working, and middle class people realise they’re the same the better. If you have to get up in the morning, work an allocated number of hours, meet the agenda of another, in exchange for money…..you are working class, regardless of financial remuneration. There’s the aristocracy or ruling class, the underprivileged class, and everyone else is working class! I suppose being called middle class allows some to feel superior over others, simply because of their perceived values. Democracy is a myth. World leaders are selected, not elected. Left wing, right wing are two wings of the same bird. Do people really believe they’d be allowed to vote, if voting really made a difference. Alister Campbell said after the brexit vote “they shouldn’t be allowed to vote”. The ruling class made a mistake, and misjudged the serfs. They thought the serfs would simply follow the mainstream and vote remain.

[@littlehammers9032]

@@sigil5772 I think the notion of collapsing cultural preferences with the social phenomena of working class social history, its defeats & successes that are specific to a particular feasibility of radical politics. For instance squatting in England, has a strong (not necessarily working-class social history) but its premise as Colin Ward noted is the 'oldest tenure in the world'. That, at least since LASPO passed in 2012 means that the feasibility of those collective actions are limited. But working class social politics are not collapsible remotely to middle class social politics, they are foundationally built with a different set of realisable and sociable goals. Saying that they are is to unbind the social conditions under which say, housing or accessibility to Union support is constructed. Eliminating the social history of the working class under some juiced by contradictory politics of say the precariat...is to simply see the phenomena extended to working class people spread, yes that indeed socialise people to the fundamental rights (fought by working class people) for sick pay, annual leave etc.

[@19pgs85]

@@sigil5772 well read but totally pretentious, chomsky is well read but just clear and easy to understand. silly academic waffle is dangerous, it just puts people off.

[@TRWorld490]

This was a really interesting conversation, great content and please more stuff like this! I fell out of the way with China Mieville a few years ago after reading his (admittedly great) early books. I can't exactly put my finger on why this was the case, but having listened to this conversation I will have to get back into his work.

[@ritawing1064]

I left off because he is so cruel to his characters, but it was with great reluctance, they are outstanding works.

[@HereIsMyStuff35]

@@ritawing1064 Agreed. He's particularly cruel to animals in some stories, and that turned me off.

[@ritawing1064]

@@HereIsMyStuff35 some of the books, like Embassytown, don't suffer from this defect: perhaps they could be published with a cruelty rating so we could avoid the ones we can't cope with!

[@HereIsMyStuff35]

@@ritawing1064 Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give Embassytown a whirl. A rating system would be great!

[@Hellserch]

I to fell of the Mieville wagon after ‘King Rat’. I also don’t know why I drifted off but there’s always a reason. Enjoyed your comment.

[@supamarx5782]

Ash showing for the umpteenth time why she completely belongs in the media big leagues.

[@fingersflynn]

Ash is briliant - don't believe the "big leagues" would let Ash be herself.

[@happinesstan]

In a real world she belongs in the big leagues, but not in this fabricated world of deceit.

[@SuperTonyony]

Ash IS the big leagues! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@happinesstan]

@@fingersflynn Visions of Selina Scott interviewing Jimmy saville spring to mind.

[@LongDefiant]

Is this an insult??

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

You seem to be missing an explanation of the clash of the Working-class left with Id-Pol. The unique problem for the working class identity (they are the majority) is political representation and disenfranchisement, while minority identities don't have any ideological opposition to a weakening democracy. In fact many of these groups have been actively anti-democratic, dismissing working-class interests as populist, or sidelined as "poverty issues". Even if Working Class is not strictly an identity, they need to organise separately, prioritising their own interests. It's the "classification" of other identities that turns off many working class people because the middle classes prioritise their own class distinctions and voices above every other identity consideration. How do the working-class organise against a middle-class that insists on speaking for everyone else?

[@jemfrankel4099]

Really good point! Echoes Owen Jones point in Chavs - ‘rubbishing’ working class values by aspiring to upward mobility and hollowing out working class political structures (esp trade unions) to effectively disenfranchise working class resistance to exploitation and making ‘working class’ an identity ‘like any other’.

[@michaelskinner3067]

I could sit listening to people having conversations like this all day.

[@moonfruit9567]

The reason why AS and CM don’t ‘feel’ class in that affective (or any other) way is because they simply don’t have working class origins. Both are products of (different kinds of) privilege. This conversation would be so much better if they would acknowledge and be honest about this.

[@bleu2680]

Media being controlled by the privileged, what else is new?

[@jamesjohnson2394]

They sell their labour power for a price under threat of starvation. They are working class.

[@jamesjohnson2394]

Class is not an identity It a relation to production.

[@bleu2680]

@@jamesjohnson2394 yes but it doesn't negate the psychological results of the UK class system

[@moonfruit9567]

@@bleu2680 Precisely. Nor its material effects.

[@hoymuereelheroe]

So glad to see him back in arms. Such a brilliant writer. Loved the interview!

[@erebusvonmori8050]

In terms of class as identity, I think it's best to frame class as the oppressed identity which all other forms are oppression funnel into. So every other form of oppression a person is under increases their odds of being working class, and the lower a person's class the more they will suffer from their other oppression.

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

That's a good definition. It's interesting that we live in societies that function by trapping 60-70% of the population in the lowest class, while most of us think we can escape, somehow.

[@MsHan71]

Yes, and also, all the other identities are set up to divide us, the working class and keep the class system in place. It's like the merry-go-round where the horses are each identity oppression, but the base is the class system and root of capitalism.

[@emilianosintarias7337]

@jcorb that can't be right on gender inequality, more unequal societies are often more gender equal because both sexes get screwed over

[@emilianosintarias7337]

@jcorb it is actually. that is what equal means. For example in many less developed countries both sexes are screwed over equally (usually men are more abused/killed/die young, and women are more excluded, from education for example), whereas in the US for example, men are more screwed over (but it used to be otherwise).

[@emilianosintarias7337]

@jcorb THEN THAT"S GENDER INEQUALITY . "more unequal societies are often more gender equal because both sexes get screwed over" . This is what you replied to. That means both 70% or both 60%. Not one 60 and one 70. There is a greater trend of economically unequal societies that are equally oppressive to both sexes, than less unequal societies, which tend to screw over both sexes UNEQUALLY. And I am basing everything I am saying on academic research alone.

[@Sunnysue31]

Blown away... Many Thanks ....Encore, Encore .... Brilliant ...

[@walidb123]

Have admired China since I was a little teenage fanboy of his fiction . It’s remarkable to see him approach politics and world affairs as I’ve matured because his particular lens is unique among contemporary writers

[@littlebrothermoneywithmich6178]

Unique? How? He’s just a communist idealist like every other 22 year old child.

[@Gusling100]

Very much enjoyed this talk. Especially the touching on the relationship between religious eschatology/apocalyse/millenarianism and leftist manifestation. That connection was incredibly important in democratic and decolonization drives the world over, but is rarely discussed in the context of British leftism (obviously because Britain was on the other end of the spear). I'd wager unpacking its relationship is essential, as the function of that theological/apocalyptic connection was always its power for breaking through the impasse of the imagination.

[@00PlPu00]

Such a brilliant interview. Amazing questions, amazing answers... wow

[@DevonMcFarlane]

This interview has enriched every cell of my m being. Thank you to both of you and all at Novara Media 🙌

[@antispindr8613]

In that case, could explain what he was talking about? For his point seemed as clear as fog

[@danrudge5997]

@@antispindr8613 which point? there are many explored in this exploratory interview.

[@stevemsmith1]

This is a really open conversation, I love the way that both of you are open to being challenged and take the challenge into your thinking. A fantastic antidote to our political times

[@MichaelFlanagan]

This was great. Thanks!

[@TheOptimisticCommunist]

Class is an important factor in identity formation.

[@happinesstan]

Identity forming is an important factor in individualist ideologies.

[@TheOptimisticCommunist]

@@happinesstan identity formation happens way before ideology formation and is a natural human process. It does not necessarily lead to individualistic ideology formation but it can depending on the environment. You think that in a communist context identity just stops existing or something?

[@TheOptimisticCommunist]

@@happinesstan a lot of a persons identity is not even individual choice. There is a social aspect to peoples identity its not just how you see yourself but how others in society perceive and treat you too

[@happinesstan]

@@TheOptimisticCommunist No it doesn't. We are born into an ideology and our personal experience is managed to fit that Ideology.

[@happinesstan]

@@TheOptimisticCommunist That's my point. Nobody gets to choose their identity. Others identify you by the characteristics which they recognise. We are different people in different scenarios. So there is little to be gained by hoping everybody identifies you in the same way.

[@purplesheep99]

While I might not agree with the politics of both of them, this was an interesting and fascinating interview. One of the best I've seen in a long time.

[@leighclark5257]

One of Ash's most intensely personal and exploratory interviews, where she puts the subject on the spot, in a very genial manner, and, even more so, puts herself on the spot, and thereby creates a genuine discussion about politics, literature, consciousness, psychology. When is she going to get her own weekly show? And when is Ash going to write the radical genre-busting "domestic novel" that will transform what we think we know about women, race, sex, romance, and politics?

[@amandajones3332]

Listened to this 3 times. Shared it widely . Thanks it was so stimulating.

[@rajasmasala]

That would indeed be wonderful to read.

[@B_Estes_Undegöetz]

Getting mired in theoretical discussions ( or worse … aestheticized contemplations in genre novels, movies, TV show fictions, etc.) of bourgeois capitalist consumer culture commodifications of such idealist, essentialist “identities” like “race” and “gender” and “romance” is exactly what anyone hoping to see a revolutionary socialist future don’t need. To understand why “working class” isn’t an idealist “identity” in the way we’re relentlessly taught and made to consume identities like “feminist” or “queer” or whatever just requires you go read Marx instead of listening to “cultural Marxists” or even actual Marxists talk about culture. … just dive right into Capital, Volume I. The translation by Ben Fowkes from Penguin is great. To aid you in following along the argument listen to the chapter-by-chapter video lectures by David Harvey available here on KZbin, but don’t substitute the videos alone from reading Marx AND listening to the videos. One of the first concepts you’ll encounter is “commodity” and the “commodity fetish” created by capitalism. Today’s social and cultural “identities” have very much become invaded and commodified by capitalism such that not only are you contributing to exploitation and the profits of capitalist corporations and their rich ownership / ruling class by consuming identity as a product, but you also are taught to misunderstand the fundamental difference between the correct material economic understanding of “working class” and some romanticized, commodified, idealist understanding of “working class” and the relationships between “labor” or “worker” or “working class” and other so-called intersectional identities (race, gender, etc) that are possible sub-categories within the working class. For Marx working, or “ production” (the activities required to produce the necessities within society at any level of organization in order to feed, shelter, and clothe oneself) is always prior to all other social activities and thus working class is always socially and analytically prior to all other “identities” or relationships. Work is a matter of physical survival of the animal part of the social animal that we are, and it unites us across all other apparently divisive identities we might be taught to think about. Anyway … working class isn’t an romanticized “social identity” and creating bourgeois consumer art about other “social identities” from a “cultural Marxist” point of view is not at all what we need more of while we sit back and do nothing at all to advance the actual cause of Marxist economic principles and economic egalitarian socialism.

[@leighclark5257]

@@B_Estes_Undegöetz Yes, the Fowkes translation of Das Kapital v1 is excellent. Not so sure that discussions of social identities muddy the waters of "pure" Marxism. Das Kapital is a report from a specific social context, shaped by the social norms of Prussian culture, however brilliantly Marx protested against many, but not all, of those norms. Would Marx and Engels see social identities as constructed realities like, for example, the bourgeoisie? We'll never know. But what they did not live to experience surely doesn't stop us from using their revolutionary ideas to analyze and respond to our contemporaries societies.

[@UnravellingTomcat]

Nice to see China around again. It's been, what, 11 years since his last novel? Hoping he returns to long-form fiction soon.

[@mattbradbury]

An outstanding conversation

[@annakaricole9368]

One reason we no longer recognize ourselves as working class is decades upon decades of creating environments where work is as simple a part of life as being born or dying... even the idea of having children or getting married is no longer as much a guarantee of who we will be/are as being a worker.

[@warrenbond32]

Being Working Class is an everyday reality. Oh and this is definitely the 1st comment. Looking forward to watching this, You always supply us with thought provoking content. God Bless You all at Novara Media.

[@davidspencer7254]

From Basildon

[@Grandude77]

How did you see this 2 days ago?

[@Nomoreanons]

In my experience, intuition is rarely wrong. The issue is that the majority of people tend to want rational evidence.

[@guyaitken8590]

Hey China long time fan from Australia here. Love your work brother and feel the same about the problems of the day. Good to hear you speak.

[@BaltimoresBerzerker]

I really appreciate the honesty about hate. Hatred is universal and isn't monopolized by one ideology, race, class, etc. It may be one of the few things that crosses all constructs, shared by all people across time and space. It's as universal as love, but more pervasive and equally valid.

[@douteurhenrydickson3354]

Attention is drawn to hatred to avoid drawing attention to the conditions of exploitation of workers in the service of oligarchs - Is exploiting people hate?

[@hilaryporter7841]

This interview, made me realise how little I know about anything.

[@nkenchington6575]

no comma required!! lol, sorry!

[@mitch999]

Paulo Freire is perhaps the most important figure of the twentieth century when it comes to the issue of class he provided many with the ability to self-actualise by being conscious of the systems they face

[@petrosstefanidis6396]

In relation to how you take your relation to capital closer to your heart, I believe it heavily depends on your life conditions. Sure, getting inspired by charismatic people could play a role, but the moment the system gives you and you and people around you shit, something clicks inside you. I believe trying to feel immense suffering of others is key to that.

[@realtijuana5998]

This guy who calls himself "really old" is only 49. And he really was born with that name!

[@newforestpixie5297]

An old monarchist debating Australian affairs recently declared how ( Prince )Charles being 75 “ isn’t old at all “ . …if he was 58 and waking up the day after a day of heavy manual work , he would notice how time isn’t ineffective upon us mortals and even 60 is too old for many things let alone 75. 🏴❤️

[@roterotevideo]

Real talk coming from his book I didn’t expect him to be this jacked and tatted 😂

[@m0fr001]

Phenomenal interview again. I really enjoy China.. someone I take inspiration from.

[@Heavyheadinternation]

Everybody’s praising this interview, I thought it was a load of word waffle, but then I do have the IQ of a block of cheese.

[@0809justine]

He always sounds like he swallowed a thesaurus. I mistrust the use of words like swagger and muscular and intoxicating to describe the Manifesto because as a feminist I see that the choice of words sort of points to the elephant in the room, patriarchy.

[@briskyoungploughboy]

Mmmmm! Dinosaur flavour!

[@briskyoungploughboy]

Sorry- every time I see the word "thesaurus"

[@l.sabiabyrne9259]

Communism desperately needs rebranding. Even the word socialism has been practically criminalised by a victorious and out of control capitalist system.

[@huwpatt3817]

That is the nature of power upon language: overt propaganda or cultural ebb & flow

[@schrenk-d]

To be fair though. Cuba, Vietnam, Laos even China still have effective revolutions. They are not at all perfect. But they are effective at: 1. defending the revolution from reactionary powers. Including the maniacal, murderous US. 2. providing a good quality of life for its people, despite endless sanctions and other economic and military action. 3. Can continuously improve itself, albeit sometimes slowly. It doesn't need a rebrand. It needs to be observed, defended and understood properly. The totalitarianism of the west is a difficult thing to break through. It can be done though.

[@007ohboy]

​@@schrenk-dTo be fair, socialism/communism means the same thing even according to Marx. The goal of Socialism is to destroy class. None of those countries have destroyed class and therefor, they still have real inequalities which creates resentment and alienation. Just because they are not socialist doesn't mean most the other things you said weren't true relatively speaking. But those examples themselves need to be HONESTLY debated if we are to be truthful about what real communism looks like. And if we make fun of real communism as "utopian" and unrealistic, then we should stop lying to ourselves and stop talking about communism. If that's how one thinks, than the best humanity can every do is Social Democracy and capitalist welfare. I know classless communism is possible. I'm radical not reactionary when it comes to human democratic governance.

[@schrenk-d]

@@007ohboy "socialism/communism means the same thing even according to Marx." --- Socialism is what you go through to get to communism. There never has been a communist state. --------------------------- "Just because they are not socialist doesn't mean most the other things you said weren't true relatively speaking" --- I'd argue that the states I mentioned ARE indeed socialist. They are progressing to communism. Having observed and studied their actions, they are indeed making progress, but in very different ways. And that is good. It is healthy and awesome to have a number of socialist experiments to learn from. I can only hope the next revolution gets to their stage and can take the lessons learnt. ------------------------- "And if we make fun of real communism as "utopian" and unrealistic," --- I don't believe communism to be utopian. Better than capitalism. Yes. There will always be struggle. The idea is that removing class will allow humans to progress in harmony, where we aren't burning, raping and destroying the planet and each other. ------------------------ "Social Democracy and capitalist welfare." --- I think we have sadly proven that social democracy doesn't work. It always devolves into capitalistic decay if it isn't already exploiting the global south (like the Nordic countries) I can hope we get more comrades that are radical, well studied and can lead. All the best comrade.

[@gamerknown]

@@schrenk-d Gini coefficient in China increased 0.3 to 0.46 from 1980 to 2022. CCP full of landlords and billionaires.

[@mattiethemongoose3rd]

At 29:40 ish, speaking as a political person from an older generation, terms like microaggressions are a great way of talking about things I experienced and understood to be happening all along. Expanding the language to define more things that have existed as long as everything else is good actually. It means we can talk about them more. Like gaslighting, I knew very well it existed because I experienced it a lot my whole life, it didn't just come into existence because people started talking about it a lot more.

[@alan2102X]

+100

[@whatabouttheearth]

I usually just call "microaggression" something like "passive aggressive fuckery" because the term "microaggression" carries too much "passive aggressive fuckery"

[@whatabouttheearth]

I usually just call "microaggression" something like "passive aggressive fuckery" because the term "microaggression" carries too much "passive aggressive fuckery"

[@alvarobarcala]

I do understand his anger, plus I am a massive fan/reader/admirer of his work, but the more I listen to him the more I see that what he is truly angered about is not just the miserable system in which we live, but that in his very depths he knows that nor communism, nor the left in general, are the answer (but rather the very antithetical complement of capitalism), no matter how much he tries to squeeze such ideological schemes/ideas/pathos. I do think what what he was doing before, focusing totally in fiction, is material that will really make things change (though it needs time and generations), instead of being so absorbed in the ideological/political schema per se, as he has been in the last years. What he did before with his fiction transcended politics and ideology (in the sense of transcending the schematic and mental boundaries of mere ideology), even if it was inspired by such things, taking a step further... and that is precisely what is needed to transcend capitalism. He should have more trust in the power of his work.

[@danielwatson7540]

Can't remember the last time I had to reach for the dictionary so many times

[@henrythoreau645]

Class is a living reality for me. Something I've always felt very sharply. I've always felt working class, no doubt about that. I can also say I'm male, I'm of French and Croatian extraction, culturally also very Australian, and I can say many other things: like I'm over 50, balding, and not tall, and all this is a part of who I am too (and I haven't even started with religion) but feeling working class has been a strong part of how I identify ever since I was a 10 year old boy.

[@florianfelix8295]

Yeah but that still entails an identity.

[@kennethmarshall306]

Class is about who gives the orders and who follows them. It’s a bit more complex but that’s basically it.

[@ahahaha3505]

Well that was one great convo.

[@matthewgarrow6982]

Finally. Someone said it. My identity isn’t an economic class

[@keithreynolds]

I’m around 38 minutes in and I’m thinking about what I care about most, what I do in my life as a human being. I make visual art; book works, collage, photo collage, photo sequences, colour, paint, texture, so on so on…. I recently stopped “employment” in my sixties and I’m questioning and worrying about what I should be doing? Apart from a few friends and internet ‘likes’ my work is not seen. Should I be trying to apply my work commercially so that it can engage with a wider audience… but then it is “capitalistically” compromised? Is their any point in having exhibitions? To whom? I’ve spent a lot of my life teaching, I don’t want to slog on again in compromised employment where you cannot communicate what you really believe? I feel very introspective, but I am investing much of myself into my children. My children and my students are the key legacy to the world.

[@robmoon6442]

Evening from sunny Wales :)

[@TheTristanmarcus]

What a fascinating conversation - totally agree about 'capitalist art' and it's great to hear it spoken out loud by somebody else. Ash is just so super-cute, intelligent and also beautifully humble - in love ❤😎❤ And a great interviewer too 🙏🏽

[@lunaridge4510]

Do you have to call a woman cute, an intellectual female? Would you all a man cute?

[@Imperator_Prime]

Oooh, now granted I'm high right now, but I suspect the reason "worker" class consciousness is so hard to personally lock in is because when you become aware of the concept, by the time you do, you realize what a "consumer" you were preconditioned by capitalism to be. Like, your desire to become otherwise immediately clashes with guilt over how much you've already consumed and benefited from exploitation.

[@peenjedoyle1010]

Didn’t understand the half of that but really enjoyed it. Ash is a hero!

[@coffeyvideoproductions7767]

Never been here before. She is a great interviewer.

[@anthonymcintyre2242]

An issue is the attitude seeded in the middle class, they demand an infinite appraisal of their actions - ie despite upholding and gatekeeping consumer ideals they demand the idea that they are "trying as hard as they can". It's nonsense, just don't, you have privelege, hereditary wealth, give up those ideals and represent the working class beyond arbitrary impersonations of our culture. The "working class" that you say no longer exist have literally grown up in classist Britain. We're watching as middle class "communists" exploit every aspect of the market accessible to them. Reaction after reaction to the trends and themes set out by the consumer society. Have you seen the amount of people walking around selling their stuff at climate protests? The difference between someone receving a few grand from their parents and nothing has notable implications - the difference between thereafter is enormous. Some would deny the reality of others to suit their priveleged appraisal of behaviour. The worst part? You're not even real.

[@davidmcivor2761]

So pleased for myself, I had to google cortado, nice to know my place!

[@hiraethum]

I really f'ing wish that people would read the 1872 preface to the Manifesto and the "War in France" by Marx. Where they say part of the Manifesto are antiquated and where they hold the democratic movement of the Paris Commune as THE example for the "workers state". It would clear up a lot of confusion about what Marx was about. He was an advocate of democracy and wouldn't recognize the abberations of states that call themselves socialist as such. It's unfortunate that almost everyone that worships Marx doesn't actually get Marx.

[@whatabouttheearth]

I'm fairly sure the people that translated the MECW before computers existed knew a thing or two about the complexities of Marxs ideas.

[@whatabouttheearth]

I'm fairly sure the people that translated the MECW before computers existed knew a thing or two about the complexities of Marxs ideas.

[@bogdiworksV2]

Excellent convo, especially the part about the quality of culture capitalism produces. NFTs are a graft, don't fall into the trap of adopting everything that is heralded as world changing.

[@katypreen9588]

Which is the more powerful motivator - hatred for the thing you currently endure, or love for what you could have? One example is the Brexit vote. Millions of people were pissed off with the state of this country and wanted to do something to break it, to fight back and have their discontent heard. And hardly any of them had done anything in their lives to bring about positive political or social change. They might not have got what they wanted, but they knew what they were fighting for/against.

[@happinesstan]

Oh jesus, here it comes. Your ignorance to your ignorance is alarming. You have no idea what individuals have contributed in their attempts at positive change. many people believe that the very act of voting is counter-productive to change, so it could be argued that those who voted for the first time did more than your good self, previously.

[@peterdollins3610]

Walked & bussed through Albania with a friend for two months. Hell in boiling acid. Finished me with communism forever. Has since come up after the EU supported & helped the country my Albanian neighbours tell me.

[@alexbalayants8490]

Did you listen to the interview at all? Or read any of the literature they discuss? Nuance is paramount. Blanket, subjective statements about your anecdotal experience is exactly what should be avoided. It’s intellectually dishonest and lazy.

[@privatechannel8462]

Working class, every one that has a job and works is working class... although the working class is just a rebranding of the lower class. For me, Class doesn't exist, no human is better than me, and i am no better than anyone, except Farage, everyone is better than him.

[@sheepewe4505]

32:12 White bread, meaty fried breakfasts, and tea were once the food of the weathy. The proletariat of the 19thC loved emulating their "betters"

[@happinesstan]

Yep, the poor had to make do with oysters.

[@toi_techno]

Good conversation Funny to hear two members of the bourgeoisie tussle with what actually being a worker must feel like Being a member of the proletariat in Marxist terms is to have no options and no hope of access The middle-class “startup” person has plenty of other more conventional choices and opportunities but has chosen this particular place to be Ps No country has ever been communist Marx certainly never suggested authoritarianism, mass murder and incarceration needed to be part of a caring, fair society

[@walidb123]

You can’t classify anyone as bourgeois just to take the piss out of the content of what is being said. Academia IS “bourgeois” but we still need it. I’ve also been a cashier, bike courier, white van man, etc but then trained as an architect. Am I not a “worker” by your definition because I changed jobs?? Your critique insinuates there is no fluidity among these labels

[@general_future]

I think the reason why class is difficult to identify with is because it's completely external to the person themselves. Class is a social construct, not an inextricable personal attribute.

[@MrDeadhead1952]

I find the class/identity dicotomy a nonsense, class is economically defined whereas identity is a cultural construct.

[@naturetubeUK]

And what of your own economic/cultural dichotomy?

[@simondiamond709]

I don't agree. Class is an aspiration. That's how it works You can't raise your class by gaining money. Class is about the populace's opinion of you. A person can be raised through the class system by an act of heroism. It's a small part of the country's definition of what class is. But to remove this aspect would remove all understanding of what class is. Defenders of the class system would point you to skint peers. Essentially, it is monetary opinions on this matter which reinforce the defenders of the class system in their argument. Pretty much playing into their hands.

[@naturetubeUK]

@@simondiamond709 Just think of it in terms of a relational network, not a rigid structure. The owners of the means of production are mostly in control of cultural and economic elements. Their differentiation is near-impossible

[@simondiamond709]

​@@naturetubeUK That has absolutely no relevance, given that Marx is a cultural commentator. The happenstance of progress in societal terms shows that that is not true. Such remarks negate the history of social advancement. I would not proclaim the genius of George Best to any rich entity. Yet he is still of cultural significance. It's one example of any that could be baited at the populace. Heroes are made by the masses. Heroes have higher class. It's a matter of what you worship. If you worship money, then truth be told, it's just a form of envy you possess.

[@naturetubeUK]

@@simondiamond709 a footballer, a hero. Yet Marx himself, a slur

[@Nomoreanons]

Thank you Ash for asking China to define some of his vocabulary. I also learnt some new words!

[@ezza88ster]

"You don't get any Bangladeshi elves". You nailed that one Ash! HaHaHa!

[@colinbrigham8253]

Lived reality made me who I am 🤔

[@littlebrothermoneywithmich6178]

“I don’t Know my intentions until the wrong things happens.” If that’s that a quote of communism’s impact, I don’t know what is.

[@sillylittlemonkey7130]

Cheers Judge Holden

[@princeofchetarria5375]

I feel like people could fight over distinct ideology for years and not get anywhere. Much more important (in my opinion) to focus more on policy as it’s easier to agree on. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Personally I don’t label myself with an ideology because there will always be people in good or bad faith who misrepresent that ideology and paint it as villainous. Whereas they can’t quite do that the same way with policy

[@moonfruit9567]

The reason ‘we’ don’t think of ‘ourselves’ as workers is because the ‘we’ of the IDPOL left are not from working class backgrounds. The working classes are absent from these debates. IDPOL debates are generated, generally, by students in/from elite universities, places from which the working classes are generally excluded.

[@addammadd]

I wish it were possible for *you* educated folk to conceive of the fact that your place, your environment, your income is not synonymous with your class. If you *MUST* work to feed yourself, if you own no means of production, you are working class. What you’ve done is excreted the precise reification of the otherwise nonsensical identitarian distinction between this and that form of labor as a class category. Read more.

[@moonfruit9567]

@@addammadd As with some other responses here, this is an entirely ahistorical retort. Class identity IS reified in its material relations with other classes. Class 'systems', especially that in the UK, produce symbolic significations, cultural forms and forms of allegiance, alongside economic relations of production. Your comment is interesting but reductive. Oh, and if you're recommending I read stuff I'd be glad to do so - please let me know what you think I should read.

[@FrostekFerenczy]

Thank goodness - I *have* been saying his name correctly!

[@shaunmac6851]

Just what the world needs, the middle class and the aristocracy pontificating on the vagaries of a working class identity they have no experience of.

[@alberthawkins1240]

I can really relate to his saying he feels hatred for this system. At 61 I feel the same: not a nuanced, new labour understanding of the world where Ed Balls jumps into to bed with Mr Austerity, but a profound hatred for a system that preys on the vulnerable, and it's disgusting enablers.

[@the-selfish-meme7585]

I see identity being used to divide and conquer my class. Marx would've had a fit!

[@happinesstan]

Identity is a tool used by the opressors to identify their targets. I have no desire for an identity as I have no need to identify myself. My only need is to be myself. Of course, being 100% myself is not possible without ignoring the existence of outside influences therefore I can only hope to be self[ish]. Language is a strange tool to put all of your faith in.

[@mattbradbury]

Identity literally means the sense one has of what marks oneself as distinct, of selfhood; I don’t think your own identity is something you can opt out of even if you choose not to interrogate it in yourself

[@the-selfish-meme7585]

@@mattbradbury We don't get to choose our identity. It's a negotiation between us and the rest of humanity. We don't own it - nor should we.

[@happinesstan]

@@mattbradbury Is our identity something we ourselves curate, or is it in the eyes of the beholder?

[@happinesstan]

@@the-selfish-meme7585 Precisely.

[@meshplates]

Ideally, an artist won't say I am the unconscious of a people. But if she is a great artist, would it be legitimate to say of her that she is?

[@happinesstan]

A good question which drives at the heart of the identity debate. Is your identity yours to define? I don't believe so, that is for others to freely decide upon.

[@whatabouttheearth]

​​​@@happinesstan Identity is not a singular thing. Identity is a complex of many different things. Identity can be a positioning within material reality shaped by external factors, a subjective ideological or aesthetic posture and sense of self, but it is also a sense of temporal reality based of your material constituency, for example I am an individual physical organism one one level of identity, I am me. But I am an organism composed of other living organisms, so am I me or the body system of multitudes? I am both. To put it in an externally material sense. My physical composition at it's fundamental level is composed of atoms, elements, and these elements were literally once in the rivers, oceans, clouds, mountains, non human animals. They have been part of the atmosphere, hydrosphere, geosphere and biosphere by way of all the biogeochemical cycles, so it is legitimate to say I am Earth, because what I am, physically, was once, and will be again, part of all of earth. And earth was formed by space dust from dead stars. So earth was a star and the star was composed of elements from the big bang (elements life span are longer than the known age of the universe) so I literally am a system of multitudes of cells that are the earth that is the remains of a star that is the universe that is it's own product of birth. You're the brahman and atman. Identity is a complex of many things on different levels subjective and materially objective.

[@whatabouttheearth]

​​​@@happinesstan Identity is not a singular thing. Identity is a complex of many different things. Identity can be a positioning within material reality shaped by external factors, a subjective ideological or aesthetic posture and sense of self, but it is also a sense of temporal reality based of your material constituency, for example I am an individual physical organism one one level of identity, I am me. But I am an organism composed of other living organisms, so am I me or the body system of multitudes? I am both. To put it in an externally material sense. My physical composition at it's fundamental level is composed of atoms, elements, and these elements were literally once in the rivers, oceans, clouds, mountains, non human animals. They have been part of the atmosphere, hydrosphere, geosphere and biosphere by way of all the biogeochemical cycles, so it is legitimate to say I am Earth, because what I am, physically, was once, and will be again, part of all of earth. And earth was formed by space dust from dead stars. So earth was a star and the star was composed of elements from the big bang (elements life span are longer than the known age of the universe) so I literally am a system of multitudes of cells that are the earth that is the remains of a star that is the universe that is it's own product of birth. You're the brahman and atman Identity is a complex of many things on different levels subjective and materially objective.

[@sierrasukalski2133]

The connection to Capital as a worker is a gaping, open wound. Traumatic responses, are the natural responses, fight, flight, fawn, and amnesia. By the nature of those responses, a natural response is generally to experience one overwhelming facet at a time, and to construct bridging understanding as time goes on. In many ways, this is the central work of progressing awareness, or identity, or navigating better through reality and life, etc...

[@Lord-of-Misrule]

You would think a writer as accomplished as he is. Would be able to democratise his language a little bit more. Alas the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

[@Chan-zn7wb]

Thank you! I love his ideas, but I loathe his prose something fierce. I totally understand the 'Penny Arcade' criticism.

[@duuuad2350]

Brecht isn’t about ‘holding up the mirror’ - that’s exactly the ‘Aristotelian’ (realist) theatre he defined his own ‘Epic’ theatre against. Brecht’s stage is, as Raymond Williams says, in the subjunctive, about possibility, dynamism, change as opposed to the indicative stage of realist theatre.

[@happinesstan]

You should always re-read the books you read at 16-17.

[@kennethmarshall306]

One part that really stood out for me when I first read it was the bit about globalisation

[@musiqtee]

Could the ethics from metamodernism maybe make the coop/communist narrative easier to communicate? Just thinking that feelings, culture and general sociology as seen through metamodern philosophy is a bit more in sync with our time - as a different critique of our post modern gloom? Once, modernity encapsulated “everything” and as such was an easy sell. Postmodernism contains all the necessary criticism thereof, but is stuck because of its focus on deconstruction and intellectual understanding. From what I hear from this great discussion, the integration of humanity’s complexity into an idea of a dynamic societal system is a goal in itself. Class and identity can be too abstract and divisive to many today, so we need to focus on what 99% of us actually feel, observe, enjoy or fear. I can’t see “political parties” picking up on this, because the classical parliamentary system just isn’t democratic. Scary that big corp appeal to our feelings better than politics, and they (the ownership) know this well. Thanks to Sarkar and Novara for great work!

[@antispindr8613]

Again, do not some of the (needlessly-involved) ideas contained within the interview help to prove your point? Time for some 'on-the-left' to say what they mean - and mean what they say?

[@briancrowther3272]

2023 03 18 Comment on discussion re the communist manifesto Great interview. Loved it. Am tired now and did start a long comment but lost it when I looked for the following book people may like to read. I did a BA in politics in the mid 90's at a good Oz uni. Loved the fact that China did the same as Marx and refused to say what communism would look like as we cant imagine it and how we would be thinking in it as we would have moved from the capitalist paradigm to a communist one, equivalent to the change from feudalism to capitalism. In that Ba I was lucky enough to have got good enough grades to be allowed for a semester to work with a lecturer to make my own question and then answer it. "Is the Herman/Chomsky Model Of Propaganda Realistic and If So does It Apply To the Australian Context.". One of the main texts I used to work this out was "R.N. Berki, On Political Realism, London, Dent, 1981". ie in this paradigm. This is a good book in the context of this discussion. I loved Marx's theories as presented and his books on alienation in a capitalist system. I recently started to read EP Thompsons The Making Of the English Working Class, about 1780 to 1840, written in the 1960's a Penguin classic. You can see in this some of the influences Marx and Engles witnessed in the Lancashire Cotton towns and Manchester (where they were writing from and Engles had his cotton mill) and the wider UK context. From this the ideas in The Communist Manifesto. It is wonderful to read books about how and in what ways capitalism is conforming to the, critique, patterns and predictions of Marx via his theories. I would like to get a copy of this one, looks fascinating and vital reading. Ursula Le Guin's Sci Fi novel, “The Dispossessed” was studied in that BA for a semester as a part of a Politics In Litrature unit. I'd read it before that and loved it both times. Having studied anarchism in a prior unit by the 2nd reading, bought it so much more to life in terms of the depth behind that science fiction. So from all this you can see why I found watching this cast so rewarding. I too am motivated by an increasing hatred of capitalism and love for the possibility of something much better. Having said that, I love riding my flashy fast motorbike (a product of capitalism) but am well aware its in the context of capitalism that I ride through the wonderful countryside west of Sydney, able to see it, giving an illusion of freedom and belonging, yet am totally alienated from it by property relations, manifest physically by fences and that if I fly fish (a hobby) the rivers I inspect without permission from the property owner I may well be shot at. The law is I have a right of way along and access to the waterways (unlike the UK) but the farmers still put barred wire across the rivers at the edge of their land. I suspect illegally. But they are capitalists. A lot more could be said about riding a motorcycle and capitalism but I will leave it at that. And the 1st year science uni science text, The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance. LOL. Thankyou. Was bought up in London did a geology/physics/physical geography degree at Sheffield uni then went to oz, as a petroleum geologist to look for oil and gas. Right at the heart of capitalism, EXXON/MOBIL. Loved the job by the way but that does not stop me hating capitalism the more I understand it and want it superseded. We are a part of Gaia. Marx was not good on environment.

[@alexturner6247]

The ultimate crossover episode

[@brainbane8550]

The USSR and China in its current form each achieved more for their people in their relatively short existences than the Western Left has in its entire existence, spanning over 200 years. Just out of interest, considering the West is overrun with liberals (including in media and politics), landlords and oligarchs, I think it would help for western leftists to reflect on what they plan to do with these various groups and individuals once the glorious gay space luxury communist revolution is won with nothing more than wishful thinking and twitter quips.

[@MrA5htaroth]

I'm glad that the answer to "why do people despise the proposal of communism" was honestly answered with "Because the only systems that called themselves communist were Stalinist Russia, Maoist China etc, and we don't hold those up as examplars of a good society". However, what is then said requires some examination and would be illuminating. Conservatives are not interested that this question has been debated on the left, it is complained. Critics of communism are insufficiently interested in ideas, it is said. This is the nub of the problem. All "progressive" ideologies are very impressed by well formed arguments are elegantly formed proposals for what might be possible, and are frustrated that conservatives seem dismissive of such formulations. However, conservatives are dismayed that progressives seem to dismiss actual experience of what happens when people implement their ideas. They are not swayed by words luke "Oh, that wasn't true communism, that isn't what we mean", because the record shows that these previous failed attempts were still using basically the same framework and concepts as what is being proposed now. As an analogy, it is theoretically possible that a man will change his behaviour so that he stops beating his wife, but when she returns to him on the basis of this possibility we are dismayed. Again, it is intellectually possible that an alcoholic really will have "Just one social drink" after work and stop there, but experience shows that this will almost certainly lead to prolonged indulgence and eventual misery. For a "progressive", the world is a place that can readily respond to whatever formula they have now concocted. For a conservative, the world has its own way of organising itself that you need to work with, not simply impose your own wishes upon.

[@alexbalayants8490]

Thoughtful argument. It is not just enough to say, “it will be different from USSR or China.” We have to also remind people that we have learned much as a collective species. We are also living through the end of Empire, so people that were living comfortably but no longer are, tend to be more receptive to ideas of a different formulation of society. Convincing conservatives in the West is going to be more tricky, because of the cult of personality that they rabidly cling to.

[@veronicarodriguez8094]

At late forty-something I asked my co-worker what was the big deal with being a nationalist and loving your country. He went on to give me a fairly text book answer and added the Nationalists put others down When I think on it I get a little 🤭🤭 because we share definitions with each other in order to cement in a particular societal norm.

[@jimkowalski3395]

Awesome interview, the worst click bait. There's some dialectics right there 👊🏼🚩

[@happinesstan]

It does seem like clickbait, but I think it could be a reference to his comments on the passage "the working class has no country". This identity politics nonsense is just providing effective ammunition to the right, it's crazy. We create a world for everybody or we create a world for nobody.

[@barrylyndon5084]

Identitarianism is the great victory of the cultural right over the rationalist left. Being part of a cultural identity (national, linguistic, religious, racial, sexual, or gender) separates you from the goal of owning your livelihood, which is what will free you so that all those labels no longer matter politically. . Cultural identities have their importance in their context, and the capitalist context is what currently articulates these identities.

[@christianecoughlan7392]

Ash is very good but he won’t be tied down. He is living in a never never land