World's Most Complicated Board Game (is okay) | Aeon Trespass: Odyssey Review

[@NoPunIncluded]

UPDATE: We’d like to clarify the section of the video between 49:54 and 50:47. Spoilers for the first campaign of the game follow. … … … … … … … … … … After the publication of the video the publisher got in touch with us and informed us that the plot twist we elaborate on is subverted elsewhere in the plot. Despite extensive playthrough, we did not encounter this subversion. After we received this communication, we explored the campaign book further and discovered that such a subversion does exist and it undermines the tropes established by the original plot twist, however it is locked away behind specific criteria that are highly dependent on chance. The publisher did insist that this subversion is alluded to in all critical parts of the story but did not inform us on where else it can be discovered by the majority of players in a single playthrough.

[@TheLettucefolk]

Yeah, how about "we were wrong and apologize for the back-handed comments?". What's with people nowadays and refusing apologize?

[@JoeHuddleston]

@@TheLettucefolk You must be new here. Efka is all about back-handed comments. They gave you, in a pinned comment, a clarification that they missed a story element that is in the campaign book. They were not "wrong" about it. It just never came up when they were playing, which is a perfectly valid gripe.

[@MikeSubs176]

@@TheLettucefolk I bet you’re a lot of fun 😂

[@dvoid665]

​@@TheLettucefolkBut they weren't wrong because they couldn't have possibly known that from their own gameplay. They can't review the game as the creators of the game, they can only do it as players and if, as players, something is easy to miss and you missed it, how would you even talked about it?

If I remember correctly the last 3 story arcs gave different answers/plot twists when you finnished them. And I would estimate that on average you finnish 2 out of the 3 so finding the subversion is more likely than not. It was cool that having finnished all 3 of the last story arcs gave you a chance of defeating the final boss in a rather different way.

[@Jfunk242]

This looks like the a game I would have designed if I was left in solitary confinement for 10 years

[@thebardsdungeon]

Ha ha! Class.

[@The99Ninjas]

You literally just saved me $1000+, so I went to your website and submitted a small donation of appreciation. Thanks for all the great coverage and content.

[@NoPunIncluded]

glad we helped you make up your mind

[@dapperdan4753]

​@No Pun Included same here. I don't usually agree with your opinions (still salty about the tmb buying guide/review) but, I really appreciated this video. Thanks for helping all of us make a more informed decision and giving what seems like the most genuine review out there for this game.

[@facenameple4604]

​@@dapperdan4753 What was bad in the TMB review?

[@dapperdan4753]

@Facena Meple I genuinely love that game and I mostly disagreed with their assessment of the base box specifically. In that they said it was useless lol. No hate tho

[@facenameple4604]

@@dapperdan4753 Honestly, I kinda low-key agree because everything else is better(caveat being Undertow is harder to learn rather than easier, but better). Like if you want to keep under a certain budget, the core is the last thing I can imagine suggesting! The core(and Riffle) is also the only part I own right now, and it's wonderful! Favorite single-night game!

[@IlChatNoir17]

This is exactly the kind of game that makes me ask: Why wasn’t this a video game instead?”

[@goldsmeeth2771]

Small indie company. Possibly if the company continue its success may have video game port. Though I don't think it would win over elden ring

[@IlChatNoir17]

@@goldsmeeth2771 Small indie companies can also make video games. Given the size and scope of Aeon Trespass I imagine a whole bunch of people hot involved in it. Great video games have been made with smaller teams. My larger point is, to me it seems like all the game’s mechanics and exceptions and tables are exactly the kind of things you want in a videogame happening under the play experience. It’s fun because it doesn’t break the flow of the fun stuff. Looking at the review, it looks to me like this game is 85% admin and 15% “fun”.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

​@@IlChatNoir17 i played the game and its more like 85% fun, 15% admin

[@spectralboardgamer]

Maybe because some people don't want to spend more hours staring into a screen after already spending several hours at work. Maybe because some people just find the haptic aspects joyful. Maybe because for some people physical components allow them more immersion. For me ATO is hands-down the best game I ever played. I did not think a game like this even possible. And yes, it gives me the feelings and experience of some of the best computer games I've played (in this case X-Com), but in my preferred media Board Games. So for some people (like me) this is a great plus and a Win.

[@garrido_heron]

Videogame development is great but also a totally different type of beast to get into.

[@jamesalexander8908]

Great review. I absolutely love this game, as a solo experience. To me this is, as I said, an experience … rather than a game. It is, to me, what games dream of, when they go to sleep at night. It feels like a series of novels that I will never finish-which is exactly what I want, when I find something that I really love. This game is certainly NOT something I could imagine playing on “game night.” It’s more like an endless show to binge, wherein my choices, luck, and lack of luck, create a version that I will never duplicate in my lifetime. Even if I somehow finish and decide to play it again from the start.

[@goodlookingcorpse]

This seems like it would work better on a computer, so you didn't have to do the setup or remember all the rules. Mind you, that's my reaction to a lot of complicated board games.

[@fergman3690]

So true. There's a certain complexity level where the reason (for me) for tabletop games (having a shared experience, in-person with friends) is out-focussed by the attention needed to operate the mechanics of the game 😕

[@THESP-rz3hg]

Gloomhaven Fluxx is the greatest descriptor of a board game I've heard in some time. There's a LOT in those 2 little words

[@MaxLoy]

Even though I don't play games like this, and am unlikely to, I love deep dives like this video because it gives me a thoroughly researched and well put together window into a world I would otherwise never see.

[@jeanfecteau7473]

I can't imagine how exhausting it was to do this video, but I gotta say, whenever y'all do a deep dive on something, you always do an incredible job with it.

[@kango4633]

Thank you very much for taking the time reviewing this beast of a game. From the moment I knew you will be reviewing this game I felt excitement rise. I think I will be getting the game from the reprint campaign. But I still highly value what you are doing here. And I want to be more specific. First of all, I like the way you formulate your criticisms (not only in this video) and I think that game creators willing to open-mindedly take them into consideration can make good use of it in a way that we, as players, can take advantage of. I had the impression in the video that you feel sorry about that. I think you should not and I appreciate that you tell us what you really feel about the game. This is why I am here for. But that's not all. It's a good point that you mention your Tainted Grail review. I got the game after you made this review of TG because, in a really similar way than ATO, I felt the game might be for me. Your criticism of TG made me change my expectations about the game and helped me select the variants to get the best experience out of the game for me and my wife. I think the journey I had through the game wouldn't have been as pleasant as it was without your take on the game. I'm still wondering whether I will go through ATO alone or with my wife. At this point, going with a full group sounds like it's not going to happen. But I know that I will have to put in place clever solutions to counter some of the negatives you have mentioned. And I know, by experience, that I will enjoy my journey even more thanks to you. I think ATO is a niche game. But that's a niche I am in. I am grateful to publishers like Into The Unknown willing to share their vision without watering it down to please a larger audience. I might be completely crazy but this is the experience I am looking for. I want to immerse in time, space, rules, theme, mechanics, story. I am not even a native english speaker and there are tons of reading. So yeah, crazy I said. Thank you again NPI for what you do ❤

[@Krplun]

what did you do to get TG to be more for you?

[@kango4633]

@Krplun first, I played story mode and limited the experience to two players. Story mode really limits the grind. Two players to limit the downtime in combat or diplomacy. We also tried to stay grouped to be both involved in the fights / diplomacy. When I was doing the reading, my partner was taking notes. We also allowed ourselves to re-read some sections of already done exploration even though we were not at the right place. This prevented us from going back and forth in between regions, lightening menhirs and farming more resources. Finally, we adopted rules to increase XP cost of cards and skills to balance things a bit. This has caused a lot of escapes from fights in the end game, not sure I would recommend this. But fighting was not that mandatory for our survival. I played Arev and had the skill to enhance the food collection hability also which helps a lot. A few times we came close to dying but we managed to survive. The only remaining and painful issue was the travel connection in between cards that forces detours. But at some point in time in the game we found a solution to that problem and we abused it ;) overall I enjoyed my time with it, and I will do a second playthrough in a while... I think we have reached one of the "weaker" end due to our performance. I want to see the other paths we haven't explorered. We are now going through ISS Vanguard campaign and we haven't found any of those issues. It's a very solid experience without any tweak.

[@saveversus]

I heard about this due to the quack situation, but after this video I think I want something less complicated, like Cones of Dunshire.

[@regohgarcia]

LMAO!!!!! Great reference

[@mattscott4792]

Great shoutout to Oathsworn. My group just completed chapter 12. Best group coop game I've ever played. The story is engaging, swift, and impactful on the combat, which is unique every fight. Sessions last close to two hours each, and everything we do is memorable. I can't wait to get to the finale only to repeat the game with a new group of players.

[@connor1586]

I knew I was never going to want to play this in the first 4 minutes but still watched the whole thing. Great video!

[@jlaurson]

And I was just going to leave an identical comment!

[@Sayuiv]

I have always admired the way you delivered your thoughts. Longer video you made, but so engaging and entertaining that I did not feel like it was an hour. Hat off.

[@MattWGAllan]

Thanks for this, I needed someone to snap me out of spending most of my money on a board game because I can't help but go all in.

[@gokid]

Seriously, same. Almost went all in and had my hand on the trigger all night...

[@sakarilaiho3497]

same. This helped a lot. I did not like voyage of the first game. So why waiting 3 years to get the new one before knowing if they fix it any better

[@benjaminbaker4168]

Dude, you are amazing! Honestly, a lot of ppl won’t be happy with your take, but, thank you for not just being honest, but putting in the time and work to arrive at a place where you feel confident in your honest appraisal. I agree about oathsworn, and I actually bought a cheap and used sleeping gods a little while ago to play on my own. I’m always impressed with every video you do. Thank you!

[@TeChNoWC7]

Personally Sleeping Gods was a snoozefest and doesn’t hold a candle to ATO

[@ironwolf56]

@@TeChNoWC7 While ATO feels like maybe "too much" to me, I actually didn't get the hype about Sleeping Gods either. It was... fine I guess. I think a lot of those alternate recommendations kind of miss what a lot of people are interested in something like ATO for anyway. It's not just exploration it's WHAT you're exploring. Mysterious pulp adventure island or somewhat dark but still mostly standard fantasy setting are fine and all... I even like those kind of things, but they aren't weirdo hyperkinetic Lovecraftian TechnoGreek that ATO is, I mean THAT'S the draw, is there an alternative specifically for that?

[@TeChNoWC7]

@@ironwolf56 the main draw for me for ATO and Oathsworn is that they are boss battlers - so story based campaign games in general aren’t going to be a replacement for me.

[@Suprsim]

I don't SPECIFICALLY like that you delve in mega-gigantic-ultra-kickstarter-supreme-$500 games that I will never buy or or likely ever get a chance to play. However I do like that you do them, and more importantly I like HOW you do them. I love your depth, the things you talk about, your desire to put more of your opinions in the video instead of trying to be "unbiased or impartial". I love your passion and willingness to dive deeper into something than I could ever fathom. So, do I want to see another review on yet another campaign game? No not really. But I trust that maybe you know that. And if you DID decide to make another video about one, woooo boy I bet there will be a good reason for it.

[@PakornThaipituk]

My GF said when I bought a big board game "why do you use hard earned money to punish youselve?". 😅

[@fitzgigler]

This review helped me make the decision to buy Kingdom Death: Monster instead.

[@Ootori_sama]

I know right? All the mechanics described just makes this game seem like KDM but slightly more obnoxious

[@thebigcheese1905]

As someone who has played over 100 hours of ATO as a 2-player game, I wanted to put forward my thoughts on the game and the points made in the video (loosely in the order of the video): - I 100% agree that the game is incredibly complex, there are many, many rules and that could difinitely turn many people away. - The game takes up a huge amount of table space and has hundreds of hours of content. If you can commit to that, the gameplay is incredibly rewarding, but it isn't for everyone. - I definitely agree that this game is too much for 4 players. 1-2 players is best. - I partially disagree with the video's statement of randomness in battles, especially the comparison to Flux. Yes, there are extreme moments of good or bad luck, but there are many ways to mitigate that variance, allowing you to reroll dice or even retry battles. Additionally, losing a battle is not the end of the game, you can still get resources and mitigate your losses; the focus is on managing your resources to win the campaign. Bad luck in one battle is just a setback. - I've had a very different experience with Out-of-range evades. Very rarely is it worthwhile to just run away from the primordial and burn turns. You need to attack to build rage. Its often much better to manipulate who is going to be attacked than to avoid the attack entirely. - I strongly disagree with the video's point that fighting the same primordial becomes monotonous. As the primordials level up they get new abilities that recontextualize their fight which, combined with your constantly updating gear and loadouts, keeps fights fresh an engaging. You do need to craft more specialized gear as the primordial gets stronger, but I've never felt that it makes loadouts stagnant. - Ambushes happen a couple times each cycle. I'm surprised the video brings them up. Maybe they were not removing the cards from the deck? - The Adversaries (that chace you down) are definitely not invincible bosses, so I never really felt the issues with that. I do agree, however, that adversary battles can sometime become monotonous when they occur too often. - I definitely agree that the adventure tables dont work well for multiple reasons. They arent game breaking, but could definitely be improved. - I got very different theming out of the game. (Slight spoilers in this section) I agree that portrayal of the nymphs is exploitative, but outside of that I didnt really see the focus on the exploitation of women, especially in cycle 1. This is largely up to your own interpretation, but I found that the issues in cycle 1 were mostly caused by multiple Men's grief, not a Woman's. You do have to piece together these relevations, so they could easily be missed. Personally I enjoyed the way that each faction was morally gray, having both sympathetic and adversarial consituents, with a huge amout of lore to piece together what actually happened between these factions. - I agree that the grid to track decisions is very hard to remember and the alternatives mentioned in the video would be a definite improvement. Thanks for reading if you got this far. I overall agree with the video that the game is too complex for many and requires a huge time investment. I also agree that there are multiple systems that show the inexperience of the developers. However, I think the video is too harsh on the story and combat, both of which my play group has found consistently engaging and is what has kept us playing every weekend. There is a reason that the game is so highly rated on BGG.

[@JohnHoliver]

Good responses, I'm between C1 & C2 and had similar thoughts. The difference is that I like the system of the adventures. I think it gives a realism to the fact that in life we don't know what we are getting into. It makes fate less predictable, future more chaotic, information less complete and that are all things that I personally enjoy in ATO. It is randomized but at least it isn't linear/semi-linear, and that feels like to me like a valid design choice which pays onto the uniqueness of this game in my collection. I only wished I could remember more of the adventures, which is hard in this scope. Often times, I read a story in the middle of an adventure and I lost context as a lot of time had passed since reading the last entry.

[@PRC533]

It's rated highly on BGG because it's a niche game which caters to a very specific group of people who all like it for the reasons it exists. Any super limited release like this tends to have overwhelmingly positive reviews because the people who like it are the ones who purchased it in the first place. This is just one of the many biases the BGG rating system has, it just happens to be magnified for games like this.

[@JohnHoliver]

@@PRC533 wouldn't you agree that in this argument we should see a lot more games with rates over 9 for a significant #voters? (I'd say 1000 votes is a good number to rule out collusion). My point being that lots of crowdfunded games are niche and limited, and yet ATO has the highest rating of them all. Maybe it isn't a good measure to compare the rating of ATO against retail available games (e.g. Wingspan), but bias or not it has meaning.

[@thebigcheese1905]

@@PRC533 Certainly, niche appeal and a limited release will effect a rating, hence why the "Geek Rating" probably uses a Bayesian average or something similar. However, that doesn't allow you to entirely discount a high score. There are many niche games that don't have good ratings.

[@lotterwinner6474]

I am in the camp that ATO is an amazing game. Ive played through cycle 1 multiple times. I agree with basically everything you wrote. I wish the choice matrix in the app would remind you what story decisions you made. As for the adventure tables ive been thinking that I would roll the die to figure out which stories I would start and then just play those out and not reroll until I finished one. As designed its a little too fractured for my liking.

[@jasonpadgett1333]

Really great review with some great critiques, especially the part about the surprise battles. And yet, I love the game, and I am really looking forward to the future cycles and Twelve Sins of Herakles.

[@DVCBear]

Great overview and review. This by far is the most ambitious game I have ever owned. I am about to start cycle 3, and have to say the story is the best so far. Each ending of each cycle is very rewarding. App is a requirement, I play on a 3x4 table, have a simple flow to transition into the voyage flow. I will admit, as a solo player, I am using a few house rules to simplify the game. Looking forward to the future games from ITU. I also own Oathsworn and KDM, but for me ATO has the edge.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

Same assessment as well

[@adam551982]

I feel the same. I adore this game. In fact I adore ITU so much now, I've all in backed every single one of their games. I'm selling my entire MtG collection, KDM and likely Oathsworn and a few others I have coming thus year. This is THE game for me. The story and immersion is amazing and that coupled with awesome character progression and sweet ass gear!? Ehrrrmagawd, I love it. For all the small brains who can't deal with this game. Sucks to be you. :😜

[@lotterwinner6474]

Yeah. After playing ATO I have (probably foolishly) backed KF and everything in the 12 sins campaign. It was just that good.

[@emmaplaysgreen2849]

As someone who knows almost nothing about this game, I found it really interesting that you mention that there's an app available! I didn't make it more than 5 minutes into the video before thinking "This just really shows why some boardgames are just some much better when they have apps to do all the donkey work and let the player focus on the narrative and actually having fun!" I play a lot of solo games, mostly small games but sometimes larger ones too. I own the original Sentinels of the Multiverse, for example, which has far too much book-keeping to be fun without its Sidekick helper app. There's nothing wrong with complex mechanisms/rules but the problem comes when both designers and players mistake complex mechanisms/rules for what ends up being constant grind and/or book-keeping that gets in the way of the emerging narrative. And don't get me wrong, we must all enjoy a certain amount of the book-keeping, the tactile experience of handling cards, tokens, moving around cubes, meeples and minis otherwise we'd all just play video games instead but that tactile experience of book-keeping and management, in this specific genre of boardgame, as opposed to a eurogame (and to a certain extent, even in most eurogames that aren't, say Powergrid!), has to be balanced very carefully with give the game enough room to allow the carefully crafted theme and narrative to emerge in the hands of its players. I sense that using an app and adding house rules is allowing you to enjoy all the good parts that came across in Efka's review - the choatic combat and the fun he had exploring and crafting then going straight back into combat again, then exploring again, but eliminates so much of the drudgery and crunch and grind that I felt was a significant part of Efka's disappointment with the game?

[@gasa5251]

@@lotterwinner6474 I feel KF is going to be better suited for me, but i do love ATO. So looking forward to KF !

[@CompressionPolice]

When your D&D group decides "none of these ttrpgs are complicated enough and are too versatile"

[@mortaneus]

Funny and true...though as far as complexity vs Tabletop RPGs go, ATO is merely mid-range.

[@nimblegoat]

@@mortaneus Yeah - RPGs kile BGs have have now a wide selection form one page rules and set up - to behemoths - some of those get a character in 5 minutes and start laying can be just as rich tapestry - even when I played DND early 80s - ignored lots fiddly rules - and let GM/DM rule common sense-- for say encumbrance , use of certain weapons in confined spaces , material part of spells (just assume you have it - for stock and std spells but resurrection /wish )

[@japanczyk]

This is far easier and simpler than any TTRPG (especially D&D)

[@mortaneus]

@@japanczyk RPGs have a WIDE variety of complexities. Look up Phoenix Command RPG for an example that will put hex-and-counter wargames to shame, and Risus for an RPG simpler than many party games. DnD is fairly middle-of-the-road in the RPG landscape, leaning slightly heavy.

[@Exozik]

​​@@japanczyk In DnD, 1 table is enough for the game and 6 players can be around it no problem. Also DnD offer a very large amounts of monsters to fight , not just 2 per campaign. The decision making is also far superior as your imagination and your dm is the only limitation you have.

[@Telekrus]

I don't know if I've ever seen a review more efficiently convey that I definitely won't enjoy a game than the first minute of this one. Great job!

[@rogerniner]

Also, much love to "Ghosteen" behind you. I've worked on a number of Nick Cave cover projects, and that album still devastates me.

[@fobmon19]

I’m 5:30 into the video and this is reminding me so much of DnD encounter charts where things are “technically possible” but so outrageously unlikely to happen that I’m left to wonder what the point of them being around is.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

It's the thrill of winning the lottery. The gears are really cool, but too many and you are overpowered so DnD hide behind luck tables. You get an unlock later in ATO so it's not necessary to grind for them

[@kasparbaktat964]

As always it is very impressive how much thought and skill you put into your review videos! Learned a lot about AT:O in this one and will rewatch your review of Oathsworn now :-)

[@Reaperman4711]

Oh thank gosh I made it through the intro! Much better now. 😁The Intro's intentional firehose-pacing was a struggle...which became positively demoralizing when the second table was pulled in. 🤦‍♂

[@vaevin33]

That intro was well done. Simple rule to understand. Roll dice to determine what dice you roll *queue Cones of Dunshire gif*. But really it does look all quite interesting.

[@Ultr4l0f]

43:00 I actually enjoyed the pursuing megaboss in Tainted Grail. It took some clever movements but we mostly evaded it, so we almost never had to fight it. And when we did fight It, we either won quickly or ran away. It was 5 minute fights. Not 2 hour fights.

[@Anzerke]

Thank you for this one. I was all in on Aeon Trespass and this convinced me to think again. Thanks for getting this out before the kickstarter closed.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

Watch other reviews lol. Why decided base don 1 person's opinion when the game has many more positive reviews than negative ? Also its player score on BGG is super favorable.

[@Anzerke]

@@DakonBlackblade2 I did, plenty of them. None of them came close to this one in depth or honesty. And BGG score is basically meaningless for kickstarters. Look, I get that people backing out of the SGs was upsetting if you stayed in, but if you do care about BGG score then consider how it would have fared if this review didn't go up and a shitload of people spent absurd money buying this game and only then discovered all the aspects of it that they didn't like.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

@@Anzerke Because he decided to basically distill hate on the game for 1 hour straight his opinion is more valid than someone who actually reviewed the game (as in pointed positives and negatives) for 15 minutes? Also the game is great, I played it, a lot, it is not about getting upset for backing the game, I'm getting upset at this dumb "it's too complex narrative" when the game did not advertise itself as being simple, and, in fact, is not that complicated either, anyone who plays or have played TTRPGs will tell you it’s simple actually. It is quite gigantic tough, that no one can deny. He also hated on the story for not sharing his world views, when the story is very good, it is super well written, he failled to judge it on its own merits. Being in depth does not make this a better review at all, especially when it is 1 hour of him letting his hatred for Into the Unknown get the better of his judgement.

[@Anubid]

@@DakonBlackblade2 theres nothing worse than simps for bloated KS schlock

[@aonline_abridged]

After days of rules prep and teaching my husband, we set down to play. I couldn't get past the first fight, immediately sold everything to my friend who will probably love it. I think this will be heaven for some people, but for me it was not even okay. I backed it for the map exploration 1/2 which is sad because by the time I finished that fight, I knew that no matter how awesome that other 1/2 may be, it could never make up for the fight scenes. I curled back into Frosthaven wondering why I even considered dating someone else.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

If you like the story, you can house rule auto win every battle Alternatively there's 7th citadel or tainted grail with house rules

[@thomascocks9136]

​@Gold Smeeth 7th doesn't really have a story. Tainted grail definitely does though, and the combat is fairly quick

[@aonline_abridged]

I love soloing 7th Continent and I await 7th Citadel with excitement. I think the price and size of AT:O is way too high for me to keep it in the name of a maybe-good story; and I don't even know if it will be good as I didn't get very far. This review did clarify for me that I also would not have liked the map exploration 1/2 as it lacks the cohesive world building and connectivity I seek. Tainted Grail sits in my shelf of future enjoyment lol, I also backed it because of the map exploration. For crunchy combat, we continue to enjoy Frosthaven and Oathsworn.

[@sattm8230]

This review isn't really needed. ATO is made for certain types of people. You know if you're that type of person or not.

[@DumahAtreides]

Best video that was able to explain why someone wouldn't like this game. I have backed the smallest portion of the system - Sins Summer to find out for myself in the least overwhealming way possible. My guess is that by the end of that I'll feel like I'll have seen and enjoyed enough, but would rather have more focused narrative experiences - or ones with just emergent shorter ones.

[@svachalek]

Good call. I think it will be a good “introduction” to the game, if we can use that word for something that’s still bigger than most campaign games. I love cycles 1-3 but I still have 4-5 and Kingdoms Forlorn coming so even I couldn’t convince myself I needed all 4 seasons here.

[@CGoody564]

I should have done what you did. Instead, now I'm worried about receiving a $1000 paper weight 😅 Welp, hopefully the resale value is there if it isn't my cup of tea

[@domdib55]

I KNOW I'll never play this, but I do appreciate the extraordinary effort required for this review 😅

[@NiceGuyCampbell]

Thanks for the indepth review! I own KDM, Oathsworn and Sleeping Gods and was very close to backing Aeon Trepass but cancelled my backing in the last few days (before watching this video) as I decided when I searched my soul that I didn't need another KDM in my life! Glad to see that 2 other games I have really enjoyed both get a shout out for scratching this games itch but in a more fun way! Keep up the amazing work.

[@SubjectNate]

The review was more entertaining to me than I think the game would be.

[@JohnHoliver]

It was a good review, I see some of his points... but as someone that played the game, what I can say about it is that in 24h I probably wont be thinking about this review, but I'll still be thinking about ATO, and it has been weeks since I completed just the cycle 1.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

The review feels like he is hating on the game cause it does not adress "social issues" or whatever. It si a fantasy game that is fun to play, the rest is he hating on it cause he expected the game to be some kind of political bastion it is not.

[@devinreviews192]

@@DakonBlackblade2 are you high? I'm sorry but there were so many other critisisms that if this is all you saw I think you might be seeing and hearing what you want fellow

[@DakonBlackblade2]

@@devinreviews192 The first half of the video is quite valid, albeit he does give way more emphasis on the negative, the positives he talks about in 2 minutes. The second half he basically ignores it is a review and make it personal tough. The story of this game is a good one, ye it lacks any deep political meaning, but why this was a reason for him to say you shouldn't even give this game a chance and play Oathsworn instead (btw the end portion of this video feals like an Oathsworn payed sponsorship deal lol) is because he wanted this game to be political and it wasn't and then he forgot to judge the tale on its own merits.

[@aeryellae5837]

@@DakonBlackblade2 ITU messaged him and told him that the stories in the game "might be of particular interest to [him] as they don't shy away from politics and contemporary issues, taking a critical look at various topics, like discrimination, propaganda, nihilism or toxic masculinity" and that "[ITU] wishes to speak about these things through our games, as we are convinced that our medium is capable of becoming so much more than what it is right now" ITU was looking for free publicity and represented that the game was something that it is not. That's a valid criticism for him to make. And there's nothing wrong with preferring stories that aren't misogynistic or racist in nature. Though I should note, in the Oathsworn comparison system, I don't think he mentioned the message of the game at all - it was all focused on the game play experience.

[@elementz301]

Still playing through the "tutorial" of this game. Kingdom Death Monster is my favorite game ever, so I figured I might as well try the copy cat everyone loves. So far it's interesting, I like the changed/additions they made to the combat. Looking forward to playing more

[@adam551982]

Wayyyyy better than KDM. Just hang in there, the juice is worth the squeeze

[@gasa5251]

they say imitation is the best form of compliment :-)

[@TeChNoWC7]

@@adam551982 KDM is better. If you want we can have an essay battle over this. I come equipped with hundreds of hours of play in both so steel yourself

[@CGoody564]

​@@TeChNoWC7 as one who is looking to buying one of the two, please let loose.

[@stefandrawert]

I was very much entertained and found the video very much useful - thanks for your time, insights and devotion!

[@twentysides]

My first reaction was "Hell yeah, over an hour video from NPI" and my last reaction was "Goddamn, it's 2 AM already." Awesome video, joy to watch. I feel compelled to try to figure out what these factions do that you can't say on KZbin.

[@CGoody564]

I can only imagine that it has to do with grape being ingrained into their society (because typical violent themes wouldn't be enough to make a remark about it)

[@縞鰺-o3c]

To be perfectly honest: This video indeed has been incredibly valuable to me. Thanks for making it!

[@AndyCotgreave]

Definitely useful and entertaining! This isn't even a game I'd ever be interested in playing. Thank you

[@JohnHoliver]

Man, this review is genius. I've laughed very hard at the description of multiple battles in a row and tearing up/down the map.

[@BadBookend]

Thank you both for getting it out when you did. I value your opinion and many of the things you bring up as valuable to you, coherent and concise storytelling, are also really important to me. The fomo almost had me backing this game but thanks to you I'm not going to be spending my money on it. I'm already a patreon sub but I'll bump my value up as a tribute to the money you saved me!

[@baska-]

Thanks for this, I was thinking about buying Oathsworn and Sleeping Gods, now I'll do it this month.

[@cjpny1455]

Finally got to watch the whole video. I love ATO but I still respect how you did this! Wow subscribing

[@Jump90]

Holy moly, a beast of a review for a beast of a game. Wow. Finished the video and have to say, as a big ato fan, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts! And often found myself agreeing with you.

[@kj869]

Im finding it interesting how directly it copies main mechanics from KDM. Even the emptiness of battle board.

[@PACEUK22]

And the box art design. It’s a total ripoff

[@MidwestJedi]

I have been trying to decide if I should get this game. I still don't know (which means I probably shouldn't), but this review is hilarious. Subscribed!

[@IslanKleinknecht]

I am 6 minutes in, and all I'm hearing is "KDM, but even more convoluted"

[@robertmcgehee7279]

As a player of both, yes to a large degree. KDM + 7th continent.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

I am now 17 minutes in, and I'm getting more and more concerned.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

19 minutes, and OH DEAR GOD WHAT.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

I mean, there's being "inspired by", and then there's outright lifting the tactics of the first two monsters XD XD

[@kristianpettersen3962]

KDM is by far the superior game. And I play Advanced Squad Leader. You do not know complex. Which is fine.

[@sebastiang.5032]

You can't get knocked down multiple turns in a row. That's why the Knockdown card has the 'standing up' side. It protects you against multiple knockdowns in a row.

[@Olvenskol]

That took me a few fights before figuring that out ;)

[@DakonBlackblade2]

Don't even try, it’s clear from the outset he wanted to hate on the game. The mechanics criticism was pretext; we see in the second half the real reason for this review was political.

[@svachalek]

Also the idea of out of reach evade is not to have your entire team standing around and doing nothing for a turn. You want to make the Primordial waste its turn and then still get your licks in during your round. That requires some dancing and a little luck and heck, you can still call that boring tactics but I found it interesting. Lots of reviewers including this one gushed about Gloomhaven’s tactics even though you can make it sound pretty boring by saying “just alternate high and low initiative”.

[@fy8798]

That's silly, Dakon. Crying about reviewers being "political" is childish and just shows your insecurity. I say that as a)someone disagreeing with some of the review parts and b)someone going all-in on this game's current kickstarter. Efka gave the game a good shot, but probably missed some parts of it, such as Ariadne (it was Theseus causing it, not Ariadne). And disliking the nymphs is not unique or """political""" either, roughly a quarter of the audience wasn't too fond of them either, going by the poll, as were some in my gaming group.

[@A6by]

​@@DakonBlackblade2If you listened to the podcast, you'll know they had a blast with it, as far as I could tell anyway. They also had many complaints. This is what we call a nuanced opinion that isn't just "10/10 GOTY YYYEEEAH". This video is quite complimentary too. Just nuanced and honest. Calm down.

[@ModularLanding]

People should also check out the recent review of this game by The King of Average, who calls it his favorite game. He also discusses the app which seems to address several of Efka’s criticisms (like not being able to remember story beats and choices-the app lets you add note reminders). This game obviously won’t be for everyone, but it’s notable that lots of people do love it and find it a masterpiece. Even in this comment section, almost everyone who has played it has liked it. I’m looking forward to trying it. It looks epic. I like games like Tainted Grail, Solomon Kane, etc, and I’ll be playing solo or occasionally with my wife with a large dining table I can keep this on.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

It is a masterpiece. But the reviewer isnt wrong about heaviness, setup/tears, and player elimination. 2 players with large table is ideal. You may enjoy more than us who has less than ideal setup

[@maththeteacher]

I really enjoyed this review! If there was a best review of the year, I think this should be it. With the time you must have spent in this game and the time spent to make and edit this video, you both are clearly dedicated reviewers. I have so much respect for your work. I've become a huge fan of your channel. ❤

[@richardschwerdtfeger2765]

Watching this review makes me want to get Sleeping Gods back off the shelf, and then to play Oathsworn when it arrives. AT:O looks way better than KDM, but not enough for me to spend a crazy amount of money on.

[@Slobst]

I think I'll just join Collin in watching Fraiser again

[@JBoardGamez]

I love your content, keep it up. Glad I backed oathsworn

[@BasketOfPuppies642]

I'm only 4 minutes in and my brain is unraveling. I'm so glad I'm watching this before I get high tonight- this might have broken my weed-addled brain

[@nathanadler6991]

Good review, sounds like an ideal gateway game for beginners.

[@kango4633]

😂

[@goldsmeeth2771]

​​@@kango4633 gateway 5e or DnD players, sounds about right

[@kango4633]

I confess I have seen this with my board gamer's eyes ;)

[@grantquiller4952]

My take away after this is that I’m going to find a copy of Oathsworn ASAP…thanks for the video and the definite arduous task of playing AT:O, so I don’t have to.

[@andyb8280]

I had option paralysis with the recent Kickstarter and ended up not backing. This video (and believe me, I watched a LOT of AOT videos) confirmed I made the right choice. Love your stuff, keep up the good work!

[@PACEUK22]

Same here

[@AlBundy4td]

This and the 2.5x price hike from the original.

[@davidjacovelli5986]

Very good video, informing us as you do about the matter of complications around this game. Nice to see a Nick Cave record too 🙂

[@D3m0n7x]

i know it was KDM like, but jeeesh its practically kdm

[@theautisticguitarist7560]

Even down to the Word Word: Word title.

[@fy8798]

As a fan of the game (love a lot of parts of it)... I also like this review. Really well done, Efka. I personally prefer Aeons Trespass over Sleeping Gods (though I also like that) - but you are very right in your criticisms of some of the map and the nymphs especially. It's hard to square. My personal take on c2 was more positive than yours, but I really liked the mechanical interaction of humanity versus failure. Good work! Criticism is good.

[@fy8798]

Honestly my only real major disagreement with this review is the oathsworn recommendation. Its treatment of witches was ...lets say I prefer nymphs and I dislike the nymphs. :/

[@whatsabandicoot]

That moment in Oathsworn stunned our group to silence. Phenomenally well delivered and impactful plot beat. I wasn't as enthused with the game overall, but will never forget, and am very happy to have experienced, that moment. I'm looking forward to the next generation of "dual wielding" gaming tables that can handle the ever growing scale of these campaign games 😅

[@goldsmeeth2771]

What part was that cause your group to silent? I gone through oathsworn so no worries about spoilers

[@whatsabandicoot]

@@goldsmeeth2771 from memory, it was Chapter 3 or 4. You'll know the part. I don't want to say it outright to avoid spoiling it for others.

[@JJEMcManus]

Once again, board game analysis that is head and shoulders above what passes for content on KZbin these days. Insightful, beautifully written, masterly shot. Thank you

[@stuartcoyle1626]

For complicated next review SPI's AirWar '77. I remember it fondly...

[@JonTripp115]

I like your reviews so much, i even watch the ones for games that I'll probably never even play. Keep up the great work. Also, I spied the Ghosteen in the background. Funny enough I saw Nick Cave on this date in 2017.

[@kristianpettersen3962]

Tried it, didn’t like it. Feels like playing a very complicated yet boring rpg with an inexperienced gamemaster who loves his story and couldn’t give a crap about the players.

[@mattwilbat7570]

Thank You so much.. watching the video was like rolling that mythical 10 crit... I've cancelled and re-pledged over 20 times, thinking I'm missing out on something special. I want it all or nothing at all.. I'm a recreational player that loves minis, a good story, seamless mechanics and I take 2 to 3 turns a night as I tend to my kids running around the house. This might not be the game for me. I still want it.. but I think I have to pass. GGGrrrrr I may regret it.. but with so much content, I'm hoping more reviews come out like yours about the 12 sins campaigns as well. Is it supposed to be more seamless or just a host of different complicated rules!! and no clear info about the 3 other seasons but pledge 400 extra .. hhmm. I am just in hypnosis because of it's gargantuan scope and amazing morbid looking miniatures.. I hope to shake the Fear of Missing out soon... Even though I'm still waiting on 10 other games to arrive!!

[@JohnHoliver]

Matt, I own the game and played C1 so far. Right now it's boxed bc I wanted to give space to other titles of my collection. That said, you mentioned being recreational, and 2-3 turns a night. I think this might not be a good match. The entire ATO+SoH all-in is the equivalent to 9 games. 1 cycle is ~80h. 1 season ~150h. I played my cycle 1 in sessions of 4-8h whenever I could squeeze in. It's a massive time commitment to a casual player. In the flip side, I have this pull to get back to C2 looming my thoughts every day for weeks, if you like it, you love it. Therefore, if you do end up FOMOing hard, I'd suggest only 1 box bc that will give you months of content for the cheapest you can get, and if you do love it, you for sure will find soneone that did not even opened in the 2nd market.

[@mattwilbat7570]

@@JohnHoliver do you think Godforms are useful at all?

[@JohnHoliver]

@@mattwilbat7570 the add-on? I would rate it 15/100. Do you like changing the minis midfight? I got it myself under the reason of the time that I was supporting ITU during shipping crisis, but... during C1 I never really transformed. Now, I got the Eidolon forms bc I love what the product gave me. Efka seem to have played only C1 tho. Already while preparing C2, you get 2 cards added to certain decks that raise godform chances.

[@steveshaw6799]

Wonderful video, thank you. I appreciate your work a lot, each video has become a joy to watch that I look forward to.

[@MerrillWhiteKalEl]

WOW! What a review. So glad I have stuck with Oathsworn, which I LOVE, and Sleeping Gods.

[@Semicolon42]

Comment for the algorithm. Also, great review. Good clear descriptions. I love how you reviewed the world building as well as the geberal gameplay. Seems like such a disorganized mess

[@johnmarcgreen]

First, I may be the only one that got the very clever wordplay of "Pillars of Parthenon," having loved the D&D Gamebook "Pillars of Pentegarn" as a kid in the 80s. Second, your summary of "Gloomhaven Flux" was brilliant and told me all I needed to know about this game; I watched the entire video because your reviews are just so flipping entertaining regardless whether I ever want to play the game or not.

[@jeffreytsao5710]

this game sounds like a video game turned into a board game, except you have to do all the work the AI normally does in the background so you can play the game.

[@crazyvolucris]

Great Review… thank you 🙏🏻 and i am glad to have Oathsworn… playing chapter 5 and totally stunned and in love with that game. 🤘🏻😎

[@simonwadd4038]

Epic! The intriguing title brought me in. First ten mins explaining combat taught me it's waaaaay too much for me. Skipped to end, so now I can watch Oathsworn reviews, or seek even simpler boss battlers instead.

[@oliverlam5208]

Awesome review. I’m one of those weird players that care more about the theme/art style/world than the mechanics. Sleeping gods, TMB, oathsworn, gloomhaven all have fun mechanics but I just cannot get excited to dive back in. I’m curious and enjoy playing with friends but not itching to play those games.

[@Sprucepomplamoose]

Great video! Always entertaining and informative reviews on your channel. Thanks for posting it!

[@meantsafe]

Absolutely helpful. I have a hard time with putting time into ANY game, and when I do I want it to matter and feel important. I will be selling my copy of this game and looking into other similar ones to try and make a better choice. I just could never bring myself to try this game for, pretty much every FEAR (reason) you highlighted here. Thank you for being brutally honest.

[@neilhawkes1760]

Couldn't agree more with your final comments and thoughts on the Kickstarter reprint campaign. It is a total mess like you said and so extortionately expensive with add on after add on. Even the All Ins don't include everything and then there is shipping for a pallet of a game (I'm slightly exaggerating here). Then there are the 'interesting' marketing techniques: early bird bonus' on 'limited' pledges that turn out not to be limited because they just add another at the same price and then the early bird disappears if you go All In later; stretch goals that when reached unlock a paid for addon which then becomes free if another stretch goal is reached wt?; two linked but really separate campaigns that have 'applicable' stretch goals attached to them so when a new goal is reached you have to work out if it is applicable to whatever you have pledged for; twenty or so addons you can purchase on top of the core pledges... I could go on but is this game really interesting enough to tie my poor simple brain in knots over and empty my bank account for something I may get in 2 years? I had kind of made the decision already but your video has confirmed mine to give this a miss. Cheers

[@andreasfischer3696]

It's an amazing situation. All of your points are valid and I agree to a certain point. Nevertheless I have so much fun with the game - it's one of my all-time favourites. It's astonishing that a game with so many flaws can be near perfect in the end (for me).

[@ledpowz]

The reason is, it’s easy to pick one part or mechanic of a game and say „but it’s done better elsewhere“. It’s so hard trying to „review“ this, that it’s all about talking about isolated stuff and experiences, instead of weaving them together and give a bigger picture. Imo games are like art, and sure one stroke could have been done better, but what counts is the overall experience it leads to So I get when people talk about the stuff they don’t like but most of them are symptoms, not the „reasons“. Because: there’s a reason the game is so big, it tries to achieve something that way… so you can complain about that, or see it as a strength. But that’s common with complex things…do you understand why it’s that way and appreciate that, or do you focus on the little things it does not good. And I t’s way easier to do the last one (without bad intent)

[@coffeespoonman7931]

I've got to chime in here and say that I'm halfway through Cycle 2, have logged 41 Primordial battles (had to restart cycles a few times), and I have never once performed an Out of Reach Evade. I never felt the need to. Plus, it's not even a viable tactic for many Primordials because they don't always just target the Titan in front. I would say that, with few exceptions, setting up an OOR Evade is more trouble than it's worth and has the potential to massively backfire.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

There's more than one solutions to a fight. OOR is often coupled with flamemoth or that taunt helmet that turns you into the target. Though it's balanced because it uses a lot of fate. And I dont think reviewers OOR works on every battle

[@brunomattos]

Man... the close at 13:39 "in the other hand" is an edition masterpiece! lol

[@aloharay]

I enjoy learning your perspective of these large titles. So much work, so much insight to assist potential buyers. Thank you.

[@cheekymonkat]

A really good and thorough review, I completed all three cycles but I absolutely agree with all your points, it didn’t however stop me from loving this game !

[@jasonbooker3555]

Always appreciate the thoroughness. Helping the industry do better.

[@ravenbom]

Wow, 2 minutes in and I am both repelled and intrigued... phobia and philia at the same time. Sounds like a great system... if they make a PC port. I'm honestly spoiled by Gloomhaven, Terraforming Mars and Scythe digital and BGA now.

[@Berndr]

And rightly so, some games should never be board games in a physical form, only digital ... because tediousness to remember all the complex rules and then set it up on two huge tables is just ridiculous ... as if that was not enough, storing it afterward is a nightmare if you can't leave it all set till the next session due for lacking the space ... for all the reasons above I am not backing it ... don't even start me on the price for all in

[@gamingvoice3123]

Thanks for the review. While I don't agree with everything said or how it was presented you certainly make some solid points. I do enjoy playing the game solo, and I enjoy the Greek aesthetic, the exploration and the struggle against difficult foes. I love uncovering the mysteries of the campaign and have not really found the rules overwhelming as they do a great job of explaining and guiding you through the start. I also think that while the game is a little random, there are a lot of ways to mitigate and control the randomness, or at least skew it a bit in your favour. Also, the interplay between the fighters in a battle where you can actively help your teammates is great. Saying that, I do think they threw a lot at the game and that paring it back may have helped. I also rely on the fan sheets to help remind me of certain rules and symbols. The disconnected nature of the story hubs has not really bothered me, but it would have been so much nicer if they had been more connected to the map and given the exploration a bit more meaning. I certainly agree that the new KS campaign is a bit of a mess, with seemingly random and meaningless new stretch goals and addons. Less is more guys. I have become a bit bored with the medieval themes of games like Oathsworn so have not bothered to pick it up. I have played, and do own, Sleeping Gods. I enjoyed it although I found myself a little lost at the halfway point and gave up when my gaming group collapsed over covid. I felt it was a little disappointing, but I probably need to try it again solo.

[@RyanOlander]

"On the other hand" *zooms to other hand. " Perfection.

[@Titanicus_]

The thing I hate the most about this video.... is that you didn't publish it earlier because I ended up buying this before reselling it 😭😭

[@ilgypsynudo]

what a great video! you guys are the best in the biz! thanks for another mega video!

[@lillimack2131]

Commenting for the algorithm. Had a great time watching this, keep up the good work ❤

[@bernardoabreu5952]

Playing it in a group. My current favorite!

[@coachace123]

Awesome video! Glad I already have those "other two games" you mentioned! I have no remorse now for not backing this game.

[@EliotHochberg]

It sounds to me like if you had one of those super fancy tables that had a dining table and then you could pull the leaves off and then there’s an inset table underneath, that might actually be the perfect scenario for this game. That is assuming that when you remove the top table and put it off to the side, you have somewhere to put that, and the leaves are big enough to put separating sections on them, and not have it all fall apart

[@BoardGameQC]

Yes! And then just eat on the floor or something 😂😂

[@EliotHochberg]

@@BoardGameQC wouldn’t be the first time 😁

[@dreadknot69]

Thanks for this Efka. I really have been curious as to why this game was on the Kennerspiel list as a strategy game of the year. I could not fathom how it was THAT different than Oathsworn (or KDM) but I now see how.

[@NoPunIncluded]

Hey, do you mind sharing a link specifically to this Kennerspiel list?

[@simonvilleneuve6077]

Having played a bit of this game, I'm glad I sold it in the end. We got rid of it because we felt we needed to play it every week. If we skipped a week, we would start to forget about rules and abilities and really basic stuff. That session would get bloated by constantly going back to the book and never really getting into the groove of playing. The constant setup and teardown was also a real pain in the ass. We MIGHT have powered through it if the exploration phase was more constant in its play time, but we just couldn't. And then Frosthaven arrived so...

[@Ultr4l0f]

If I had been like... 19-25 years old, this game would have been the greatest thing to ever happen. Right now? Not a chance I will play this more than twice

[@tobyr21]

I agree with every one of your criticisms and comments. I played solo, ( won cycle number I, and I think I did not like the game as well as you do. I tried to be respectful of it. I think it can be a great game for those who like it, but with all those blemishes, I could not like it. I'd like to add one more criticism that I think you are aware of but did not mention: There's an advantage in NOT playing solo. If you forget a rule, the other players might remember it and point it out. When 3 or 4 people play THIS game, I envision many arguments about possibly-forgotten nonrules and misrules, resolved by all but one player tapping their feet in annoyance while the other player hunts through the ONE copy of the rulebook. -toby

[@AngryCheezburger303]

Stellar review. I backed the Odysseus pledge for the core game and its expansion, I'm still standing behind my choice but I can absolutely get behind a lot of the negatives you summed up. The developers announced they won't be making big changes to the second printing but I sincerely hope they will take some of your criticism into account and make adjustments to the core game that will benefit all of us.

[@goldsmeeth2771]

No, it's a masterpiece so there is no reason to change it and not much to refine for new game. Errors are so few and minor that update packs aren't needed. You just have to assess your groups capabilities. It's not playing uno, and it's not Phoenix commander in terms of weight. You want table space or get some insert. And you want to play 1-2 players Streamlined versions already exist, they are oathsworn, then further down is death may die. Even heavier and more open world are 5e campaings I think the only improvement is import more stuff into the app if folks are ok with that, but the core mechanics is very solid

[@Lunaishtar]

I'm glad that I didn't give in to the boardgame youtube hype and buy this game. It doesn't seem like a bad game at all, but I don't have the space for it, and I'm pretty sure when I get Oathsworne it'll scratch that itch for me. So thank you very much!