WOTM: The Bar Hits Infinitely Low, Part V

[@misterdeity]

Due to the nature of this content, I'm unable to monetize this series of videos, so anything you can do to help out will be greatly appreciated. I also want to apologize for the somewhat lackluster performance. I've been suffering severe back pain with two slipped disks. On the upside, since the content keeps these videos from monetization, I've left in the harsh language - which I know you'll all enjoy! UPDATE: On top of the slipped disks, I apparently have some form of anemia which is draining me of all my energy (and will to live). It's possibly related to a bone marrow disease I have (Essential Thrombocythemia) or the chemo I've been taking for the last ten years to combat that disease. Trying to figure out the treatment. Your thoughts and prayers will be greatly appreciated, if entirely useless.

[@jonc4403]

Sending good thoughts your way. Sure, they won't help you get better, but somehow they still feel better to me than sending baby genocide thoughts your way.

[@misterdeity]

@@jonc4403 Thanks for the LOLz!

[@bigdude8468]

I love your show. It is the one show I never tire of watching. I am sorry for your illness. I am considering how much I can send you, but I definitely plan to send a thanks. (P.S.: "Low bar Bill" is a classic & is being used by others of his critics on KZbin. I may find his Wiku page & note his nickname & why it is appropriate...) May the best of modern medicine be with you & may they find you a cure!!!

[@BUDDYCB4]

I’ve been watching you for your years now, and I’ve always enjoyed your comedy, your insight, and your thoughtfulness.

[@rustyclaymore1105]

Well worth a super thanks Mr. D.

[@SapientCephalopod]

If we can't have a "moral justification for murdering babies" without "objective morality", I'll take the subjective version of morality every day of the year.

[@nrellis666]

LBB's 'objective moral code' is the absolutely worst subjective moral code it's possible to imagine

[@atheistboomer7700]

According to Bill, the only moral duty is to do as you are told, by Authority. This is exactly the same as ‘I was just following orders’ excuse rightly dismissed at Nurenburg!!

[@Queenread82]

“Bill put your hand down.” 😂😂😂

[@chriscasperson5927]

Just when you think Craig can't be more of a moral monster, the bar gets lowered.

[@nickydaviesnsdpharms3084]

you know Bill knows it's immoral when he answers stating ''issuing a command of this sort'' rather than saying the act out loud ''killing a baby'' this is called severity softening and it's what guilty people do to lessen the impact of their awfulness

[@dutchkiwi6344]

they tried a similar excuse at the Nuremberg trials, "I was only following orders"

[@freddan6fly]

Just let an apologetic talk, and they show how incredible dishonest and immoral they are.

[@sachamm]

His commitment to the bit is impressive: he really seems to think he's got it all figured out.

[@DC_Prox]

The fact that anyone continues to take Craig seriously about anything is an indictment on apologetics, and quite frankly an indictment on religious thinking in general.

[@latheofheaven1017]

If the definition of God being 'all loving' and 'all good' can include commanding the murder of babies, then it renders the terms 'loving' and 'good' utterly meaningless.

[@robsquared2]

I think every part of this series should be represented by an irrational number because Bill's beliefs are so irrational.

[@InigoMontoya-]

I divided the totality of his arguments by the number of good arguments he has made, and the answer is equal to God= undefined.

[@strezztechnoid]

Maybe imaginary numbers like the square root of i could be a divisor of the irrational number.

[@katherineg9396]

"I was only following orders." Is that what I heard?

[@cuzned1375]

“I’m saying when the President does it, it’s not illegal.” - noted ethics philosopher and all-around good guy Dick Nixon The relevance is pretty obvious, right?

[@thescoobymike]

Relevant to this video as well as US politics rn because number 45 is saying the same thing but, unlike Nixon, he has the entire Republican Party backing him on it.

[@exkingjohn]

Who else said “put your hand down Bill” before Brian

[@misterdeity]

LOL!!!

[@MichaelPowers1960]

People never commit atrocities so gleefully than when they believe it to be the will of their god.

[@akaisify]

Bill, put your hand down...lol, cracked me up😅

[@PhantomMarquis]

William Lane Craig: the grotesque embodiment of the logical fallacy of special pleading.

[@valivali8104]

And might makes right...

[@nacoran]

He's making the moral argument for "Only following orders".

[@fixpontt]

following orders is not a moral argument, it is an argument about personal responsibility not morality

[@autonomouscollective2599]

@@fixpontt It becomes a moral argument when, according to Bill, it’s a divine command. Then it would immoral to _not_ follow orders.

[@OneEyed_Jack]

4:36 Did he just say that the supposed "objective" morality depends on one's "moral theory?"

[@oscargr_]

The cognitive dissonance on that must hurt physically.

[@paultaliesin1862]

One of the most remarkable conclusions of this setup is that we really have no way out of a simple dilemma: Let’s say that Alex went to Bill’s house and murdered his child. Upon being asked why he did so, Alex says “I believe that this is what god wanted me to do. Therefore it is my moral duty. Do you question the lord’s will?” Bill is now in this very strange position of being absolutely unable to say whether he should try to have Alex incarcerated or to thank him for being a beautiful, “moral” person and friend. There is absolutely nothing he can do to determine the difference, in his moral framework. For instance, what if he administered a lie detector test to Alex? Even if we trust such a test AND Alex was found to be lying, this would not prove anything. After all, Alex could have misunderstood or hallucinated or been delusional. Maybe he THOUGHT he was going against god’s command, but in fact he was following it - all part of a bigger plan, in which he was just a pawn. Maybe he was doing it out of madness or cruelty, but in fact god did desire it - he just knew that it was unnecessary to issue a command, as Alex would do so anyway. So much for any hint of “objective morality”. It’s just about the most nihilistic standpoint possible.

[@karnobot9814]

I dont know why but I think excusigists are very similar to Trump's lawyers. Twist, lie, unlawful acts and excuses are ok as long as it's for the big guy

[@ziploc2000]

Hey, if I called it a legal expense it can't be illegal. The word legal is right there, mmm'kay? Lawyers can't do crimes, they have Law right there in the job title! Similarly, objective moral absolutes are only moral if my god subjectively decides they are, mmm'kay?

[@kellypreston8933]

Corruption flows down and corrupts all who blindly follow delusions of might makes right.

[@minisimian]

It's so weird to see Bill give up the argument of Objective moral values like that . If God is even CAPABLE of Commanding that you break an Objective Moral Value ( and we are using the lovely example of Baby Murder here ) then by its very definition it cant be Objective anymore .

[@ChipArgyle]

If a human commits an atrocity, it is considered evil. But when a god tells a human to do the same thing, it becomes a good thing. All that matters is whose idea it was. If we cannot ever determine if a god spoke to a human and a human commits an atrocity claiming a god told him to do it, was it a good thing or a bad thing and who are we to make the determination? Geez, this god concept is really dangerous, isn't it?

[@unclejohnny863]

Bill would be better off alone in a very quiet room

[@bagofholding]

I'd rather have my humanist lack of god given morals if that means that the same god is not able to override them at will.

[@knutthompson7879]

WLC presents himself as this hyper rational, supremely confident, mega intellectual, but wow the dude is just making this nonsense up on the fly.

[@oscargr_]

I think he studied this nonsense for decades 😂 Not sure that makes it better or worse.

[@najaB76]

So, according to Low Bar Bill, I'm morally on good ground as long as I honestly _believe_ that God told me to do it? Right...

[@lnsflare1]

Low Bar Bill has devolved to Baby Killer Bill.

[@jenna2431]

No Bar Bill is that guy that neighbors say "I can't believe he'd do such a terrible thing."

[@strezztechnoid]

Or, "But he seemed so normal, what a shame."

[@AssassinoJake]

"There must be some sort of misunderstanding!" Side note, did you also come up with "No bar bill"? Cause I decided to start calling him that after the last video. Great minds and all that

[@autonomouscollective2599]

@@strezztechnoid Then the cops go through his social media and say, “Why didn’t anyone see the signs?”

[@chrisose]

So what WLC is saying is that Devine Commnad Theory is subjective morality for the God cult.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

"Divine command' often seems to be someone going into a temple, then coming out and saying, 'This is what god commands.' How does anyone know a god actually spoke to them?'

[@michaelbean2478]

Do you dare to question god's authoritah?!

[@brunozeigerts6379]

@@michaelbean2478 You can't prove god has authoritah... mmmkay!

[@kellydalstok8900]

Obviously it was god speaking to them, because god said exactly what they wanted to hear. /s

[@jakegreen5081]

God/Jesus - Love one another, as I have loved you . Also God/Jesus - Kill innocents, it shows how much I love you and how to love one another.

[@FakingANerve]

Bill and The Baby Killers sounds like a sweet retro band name. I need to jot this down...

[@FakingANerve]

The first single will be called "Somewhere Between Coming and Taking a Shit" inspired by the timbre of Bill's voice.

[@misterdeity]

@@FakingANerveLOL!!!

[@misterdeity]

It should be Low Bar Bill and the Baby Killers!

[@FakingANerve]

@@misterdeity From your mouth to management's ears! Low Bar Bill and The Baby Killers... UNITE!

[@manuelbaez7148]

Thank you so much dear brother giving current events you expose ghouls like these constantly

[@grumpyukrainian6076]

When I listened to Craig defending that episode from the Bible on Alex's podcast I literally heard him defending Russians' war crimes and, overall, their modus operandi in my country.

[@Max_Doubt]

IOWs, low-bar Bill is saying that God is good, but it's a 'special kind' of goodness which can't be told apart from pure evil. 🤣

[@81caspen]

@maxdoubt5219, yes, but only because we mustn’t rely on our moral intuitions, which actually, we can rely on them, but just not when it comes to God. What’s that you say? How will we distinguish between when other people have really really heard from God or are just faking or mistaken? Well, based on our intuitions, of course, which we can totes rely on, except when those intuitions say the stuff God does might be evil. It’s all so clear as day!!

[@michaelhall2709]

Did you see Dark Matter 2525’s takedown on this? It’s epic. Alex poses an entirely reasonable question to Craig about the slippery slope nature of his claim, to which Craig’s response is to repeat the exact same claim back to him. If he had installed a flashing neon sign stating EUTHYPHRO DILEMMA SOLVED AT LAST! on the bookcase behind him, it couldn’t have been a more embarrassing spectacle.

[@Gareth7]

"A qualified authority" - WLC So, we're back to subjective morality then...

[@oscargr_]

Forget about *objective morality* when he is talking about *divine command theory* As long as the two prongs of his -philosophy- theology are internally constantly, they don't have to be consistent with each other. JFC, this man is supposedly the academic apologist.

[@somersetcace1]

The most glaring contradiction is with regards to the morality argument in general. If God is the arbiter of `objective` morality, but it doesn't apply to it personally, then it is relative by definition. Even if he could come up with reasons why killing infants was morally justified for a god to do, it's still admitting morality is relative.

[@oscargr_]

that's what I think too.

[@grapeshot]

The Divine Mob Boss

[@misterdeity]

That’s a nice baby you got there. Would be a shame if something happened to it!

[@AssassinoJake]

​@@misterdeityThe flood was god saying "You're gonna be sleeping with the fishes"

[@misterdeity]

@@AssassinoJake LOL!!! This is turning into a good bit!

[@AssassinoJake]

@misterdeity "You disrespect my son, you disrespect me. Now why would go around doin that? Don't you know what my boy did for ya? He spent 3 days in the joint for your sorry ass. And THIS is the thanks he gets? But, I'm in a a forgivin' mood. Give a sincere apology and maybe 10% of what you make from now until death and we'll call it even."

[@InigoMontoya-]

I think Bill is mixing up the words "objective" and "objectionable" when he speaks of his Divinely inspired morality.

[@ManlyHall-i6x]

As Craig's M48A3 tank crushed the Canaanite children with its powerful thick treads, the metallic smell of blood filled the night air. "This would perhaps be immoral" he said with a grin, "if not commanded by an Omnibenevolent Deity.... get on the turrent." It was now my time to shine. I had been called to join in the holy war. I grabbed my NIV, "You got it DOC!" I shouted as I hurried up the ladder to the overhead turret. "Aim for the legs," Craig said laughing, "I want to get the full mileage out of this tank. Just clip them, don't kill."

[@otopico]

I love this series and everything you do Brian.

[@misterdeity]

Thanks so much. Tons o’ blessings headed your way!

[@rationalmuscle]

Alex O'Conner is a fucking saint. The man has more patience than Job. (MD, please pardon the puns...)

[@misterdeity]

I love puns!!!

[@bananaslug.1951]

Thanks! Qualified authority, I am so happy low bar Bill is not our Qualified Authority!!!! I am almost speechless (or textless) hearing that guy talk!

[@misterdeity]

Thanks so much! Endless indulgences are yours!!!

[@NelsonCruz77]

And who commanded us to obey the imperatives of this "qualified authority"?

[@d4l3d]

"A command of this sort ..." He can't even bring himself to call it what it is. He has to know he's sawing the branch he's crawled out on.

[@darrennew8211]

I came here to comment that. People would laugh in his face if he said "There's no conflict between being all good and murdering innocent babies because you wanted to."

[@misterdeity]

@@darrennew8211Murdering babies so that God’s people could steal the Canaanite’s land. Something which never needed to happen. An all-powerful God can get his people the land without murdering a single baby.

[@darrennew8211]

@@misterdeity Yep. He did the same thing personally in Egypt, too, for no reason other than he wanted to dick with Pharaoh whose heart he already hardened.

[@najaB76]

@@misterdeity A truly all-powerful god could make more land!

[@ByronAgain]

Who exactly is on the receiving end of these divine commands? And how do we know they're not simply murderous psychopaths?

[@bjhcvuaerpigfy]

Is it moral because God commands it or did God command it because it's moral? Craig wants the first. But then if you ask "how do you know God is good?" he will change to the second. If a person was changing the rules in a sports game, Craig would be able to see that it was cheating. But he can't see that he is cheating when he changes the rules.

[@misterdeity]

I’ve always said, Christianity is “heads, I win, tails, you lose.”

[@bjhcvuaerpigfy]

We can't find the truth, whether that be 'who is the best player at this sport', 'what is morally right', 'do we have evidence for god' etc, when one side is changing the rules as they go along; when one side is cheating. Religious people cheat.

[@jimbob8992]

Thanks

[@WDRhine]

As soon as WLC can provide us with the objective basis for determining when someone has received a valid divine command he has done nothing other than allow anyone to do anything and simply claim that they were following god's orders. That's right, the defense that was not legally or morally defensible when used by the nazis at Nuremburg - I was just following orders - is just fine with Bill. Or, to put it in a way most apologists would understand: with god on your side any act is permissible.

[@PabloSanchez-qu6ib]

When you use the same arguments brought up at the Nuremberg trails to defend your morals you have already lost the argument.

[@sussekind9717]

He did spend 4 years of his college education in Munich. Maybe he walked into the wrong Beer Hall...

[@nicosteffen364]

A Word to please the holy Algorythm. Atheist greetings to the allpowerfull Mr. Diety

[@dobrien51]

C’mon, everybody knows that it’s only killing babies for fun that makes it immoral.

[@catherinespencer-mills1928]

I feel ill.

[@I-am-bruno]

Grew up catholic. Now I know why they don't require us to read the bible.

[@DoorknobHead]

M E A N W H I L E .... this whole time, during this whole series. Low-Bar Bill has a baby skull sitting in his bookcase -- this issue may go deeper than we might first think.

[@misterdeity]

LOL!!!

[@suicune2001]

Bill: "I can't think for myself so I take my moral guidelines from someone else."

[@sussekind9717]

...because it pays better.

[@siamsasean]

I wanna know how the blue blistering eff he defines "objective." Never seen a concrete term look so much like smoke in the wind. If I had kids I'd pay money for him to NOT baby-sit.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

LBB’s definition for objective morality is basically “coz God sez so.” In other words, _anything_ is permissible if you think God commanded it.

[@stueyapstuey4235]

2:03 'God has the ability to override that by issuing a divine command...' Um - God has no demonstrable ability to do anything... at all... not even turn up and say 'Hi!' Heigh-ho! Another fun one Mr D - best wishes for your health!

[@FSM4TheWin]

The funny thing is when WLC states that the problem of Atheism is that "lacking a moral law giver... right and wrong, are just patterns of behavior that have emerged from the socio-biological pressures of the evolutionary process or they're expressions of personal preference and taste" what he is describing is exactly why societal mores and norms change over time. Some are constant, a product of socio-biological pressures of the evolutionary process, and some, which change over time and society to society, are expressions of personal (and societal) preference and taste. That's not a problem Bill. That's history.

[@misterdeity]

And it’s learning from our mistakes!!!

[@forall1796]

Given Bill's stance, when would God be considered Not-Good or Evil ? If God could command the killing of innocent babies and still be termed GOOD, what acts would Bill suggest, would contradict God's supposedly good nature ? If there isn't, then the statement “God is good " has no meaning.

[@EthelredHardrede-nz8yv]

"God is love" Bill The Butcher of Gods. God Is A Bullet - Concrete Blonde. A much better band than whoever wrote the Bible was at dealing with reality. Or Low Bar Bill The Bullet Of Jehovah

[@istvansipos9940]

when? When a good chunk of the g0d market considers the g0d bad, billy will find new "evidence" supporting that. Then. Not sooner.

[@piesho]

It looks like Craig is not listening to O'Connor. Hell, it seems like Craig is not even listening to himself.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

he's lost his marbles.

[@Queenread82]

It is not coherent- that is why it doesn’t intuitively (or rationally) sound moral.

[@charlesparadis5716]

old puch line "no deer! asshole too high, run too fast'

[@catseye10000]

those that command you to kill children are not worthy of whorship

[@francesconicoletti2547]

They sacrifice children to Moloch and are bad we kill children for YAWH and are good. Even Biblically it makes no sense. Can’t Moloch issue divine commands as well ?

[@ralphyetmore]

I like how LowBar just said his god has no morals. I agree.

[@stephenjones7804]

I really don't get a supposedly intelligent man trying to justify something that didn't actually happen it blows my mind.

[@kenbattor6350]

How do they know God commands it? Did he text them?

[@vestafreyja]

He borrowed a space ship.

[@oscargr_]

Order slips like they use in restaurant kitchens.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

What christians don't understand is that it is evil for a god or for anyone else to force someone into the type of existence that they might hate to exist in.

[@c.a.t.732]

I always find it weird when excusegists like Bill pontificate about a supposed objective moral authority when talking about their God (as opposed to the subjective morality of mere humans). As though a book (the Bible) composed by countless random fallible humans constitutes some sort of objective inarguable truth.

[@kleinjahr]

In essence, God made me do it and I was just following orders.

[@kellydalstok8900]

That excuse didn’t work as well as some people hoped in Neurenberg in 1945.

[@kleinjahr]

@@kellydalstok8900 Some people never learn.

[@boxcardboard5594]

Ouch! That pushed the bar below realevel.

[@Kohout33]

And then god commanded Bill to be evil in the name of morality, the babies be damned, and then trumpets sounded from the heavens...

[@nedludd7622]

"Qualified authority" is with us in the US, it is called "qualified immunity" for cops.

[@Ponera-Sama]

"As long as this ethical theory is possible and coherent, then there is no inconsistency." You're exactly right, Bill. It isn't.

[@TheHonestPeanut]

When was the last time their God commanded something? It's been a hot minute right?

[@billirwin3558]

The Christian definition of moral and the Secular definition of moral are different. Moral as in the sense of "being a moral person". The Christian definition of moral is "whatever I say is moral". The Secular definition of moral is "that which does no intentional harm". Just like the Christian definition of truth is different from the Secular definition of truth. The Christian definition of truth is "lies that support my position". The Secular definition of truth is "that which aligns with the facts". So same words, but the 2 are different languages in my opinion.

[@cathyharrop3348]

WLC'S God: "I brought you into this world and I can take you out. And it doesn't matter to me because I can make another one just like you."

[@oscargr_]

I heard Bill explain it like... God doesn't give himself moral commands therefore it's not wrong. He isn't defying a moral command. He just wanted to exercise his free will and kill some babies.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

5:46 "this is the problem with atheism, they have to decide for themselves what is moral and what isn't " like all religists bill just wants himself to be the arbiter of right and wrong, he couldn't give a sht what god think really.

[@realrealwarpet]

“Copulation with a strapped down dear” Well, if my spouse consents, that sounds fine.

[@leamael00]

You can't know how bad the "morality is absolute and god given" schmuck is until you start talking to theists about that. It's scary.

[@drfoxcourt]

Golly Bill, you almost got there. As a seasoned apologist, you almost realized there isn't an objective standard to be had regarding morals. All morals are subjective Bill. The evolve Bill. The good subjective morals standards tend to survive for longer times. With exceptions particularly for war, morals that are well-fitted to the society's and culture's survival, likewise survive. It's all much easier explained if you just gave up yoru god, Bill.

[@FredHarvey779]

Thanks! Loving your work dude, from MrD to today, keep it going, please!

[@BUDDYCB4]

Thanks!

[@simonkoster]

WLC has fully descended into "Befehl ist Befehl" teritory. I don't see any redemption from there,

[@robertmiller9735]

This is the ultimate "saying the quiet part out loud", or would be, if Craig hadn't realized "oh shit, *this* is the question I dare not answer". He's smart and educated enough to know not everyone presupposes authority as *the* moral foundation, and the usual Christian tactic is to quietly slide around that.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Again, superb!👍💙💙💙🥰✌

[@clemstevenson]

The people who invented Low Bar Bill’s god were ignorant, barbaric, primitives. The fact that people still accept the Jesus Christ sacrifice claim is bewildering, as it is totally illogical. Why would an allegedly all-powerful god do that? Of course the educated members of the Monty Python team saw it as a good target for surreal comedy...amen.

[@THATGuy5654]

I think when it comes to apologists, you either die an "intellectual," or you live long enough to see yourself become the "why the hell did anyone ever listen to this guy?"

[@jursamaj]

As far as I can tell, all apologists start in the "why the hell…" camp.

[@jonc4403]

Instead of excusagists, christianity needs REAL apologists. As in, people who apologize to the rest of us for how stupid their religion has been. Just a giant "We're sorry" to humanity.

[@pesilaratnayake162]

"We all know that killing babies for fun is always wrong." Should be replaced with: "We all know that we should do whatever God tells us to do, whether or not we would normally think it was wrong, as we would for any qualified authority." Divine command theory saving the moral argument 😜

[@momin8888]

I wonder what Bill's opinion is about what is going on in Gaza for the last several months.

[@81caspen]

4:59 What exactly are God’s qualifications as an authority? Has anyone seen his CV? And then, what, do we all vote or something? And what if it doesn’t work out, like he’s just not a good fit?

[@RustyWalker]

Poor Bill assumes a moral command would make it a moral duty without even considering that maybe God is evil or worse, the person who said God ordered it had mental health issues.

[@graydanerasmussen4071]

"Nobody is above the Code, ESPECIALLY the King!" _Sir Bowen, Dragonheart.

[@adammoore7447]

That was the saddest (attempted) justification for infanticide that anyone could make. It's tragic that someone could be so deluded/brainwashed to make such an argument.

[@donaldnumbskull9745]

This is where the Catholics have the advantage over the Proddies; the doctrine of _'quod dico sic'_ sounds much more authoritative than _'becuse I say so'_ 😉