WoW Classic Is PROVING Something... | The Antidote To Modern ‘Empty’ Games | DEEP DIVE

WoW Classic is alien to the trends of modern gaming. It’s success shows us that many players crave a sense of meaning, that they’re tired of games that frankly try too darn hard to keep them engaged. It shows a yearning for an older way, but more importantly, it reveals a design blindspot. One that’s a looming problem, one that is and will continue to lead to players burning out.
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[@beastofbray1742]

Ironically, the new "WoW-killer" might just be WoW itself.

[@BestWafflesEUW]

I hope so. We need old blizzard back:(

[@TromaFR]

@Twinbee 1988 they did it in 2008. They made Starcraft 2, Wotlk and Overwatch after. so...

[@juliagoetia]

@@TromaFR Exactly, that's when the problems started cropping up. Those games showcase the thoughts and ideals that eventually solidified and transformed things into what they are now.

[@balaganpetriot2359]

What's the problem with Overwatch, though?

[@Trisoz]

What happens when they listen to the vocal minority

[@jacklarsen4]

There's too many daily login rewards in my life.

[@IronSalamander8]

I hear you man. I forced myself to stop logging into some of these things as it felt like a 2nd job in many cases. They need to stop trying to force us to play and make a game we want to play instead.

[@86Corvus]

If a game has daily login rewards its a red flag. It says "we will give you stuff just for showing up because we are desperate and dont trust in gameplay bringing you in by itself"

[@insanemang9983]

Instantly thought of GW2

[@free_manipur_from_india]

I miss the old day of spending 3-5 hours on rep epic and be done with it for the rest of the expansion, now everything is epic but only 1% of them is actually meaningful. Burned out from all of this purps.

[@CazaliEiben]

@@insanemang9983 But GW2 probably has one of the easiest daily system. Harvest 10 things. Watch a Vista. Kill a single veteran in WvW which can be waited for from your spawn base on a map. Most days I spent less than 10 minutes (unless said veteran just died) to get 3 dailies done.

[@MCsumppi]

Problem with modern games daily/weekly guests. When you have stuff that the game forces you to do every single day for a better reward. And after spending an hour doing the dailys you feel like you barely have time to play the game. And you start playing the game only to do the dailys. With dailys you are not building something you are waiting something.

[@xxkildarxx]

The problem with old games is that even though 35k is in ok number it is not a great one. Hard to convince investors that they should stick with you when your attraction ability is less then that of some popular streamers. Sure there is a player base for these games and sure wow clasic will in the short term attract players before falling of to a similiar ~35k number, but it will not be a sustained money making hit on the level of modern flashy games or even wow itself. Case in point Asmongold is leveling to 40 on WOW classic right now but he is already back to his normal watch level that he pulls watching random youtube videos or reading forum posts.

[@marydanielle7183]

@@xxkildarxx and yet the modern WoW has worse numbers... hmmmm

[@drksilenc]

@@xxkildarxx Wow classic has alot more than 35k active players its closer to 100k in the beta...

[@mrpanda7777]

@@marydanielle7183 the game is not even out yet. This whole video is pure speculation at this point. We know vanilla will be pretty huge at start. Question is will it last? And if yes how long. I am sure every gaming company is wathcing. And I am also sure that if it does do well games will be changing. But it does not do well...

[@LeonardoTheMomo]

@@mrpanda7777 It will not only do Well, but It might even be the Window to open an other server with TBC content. The private server Nostalrius had thousands of players for years, the official classic will too, and probably compete if not overtake the population of retail wow. I wonder more about what is Blizzard going to do if the modern wow dies

[@Gissel1989]

The mistakes blizz made - To fast paced - Making everything easy to aquire - closing the skillgap between each class, everyone is equal but no one is unique.

[@MikenNinginThai]

The mistakes blizz made - To fast paced -- (Players wanting not to level characters at a slower speeds hence competition, gear ilvl, etc.) - Making everything easy to aquire -- (Same as above) - closing the skillgap between each class, everyone is equal but no one is unique. -- (Competition? Skill gap? All are the same as what is listed above) Blizzard is a company that makes money so the bottom line is how to still make money and at the same time keep you the player interested in playing and keeping a subscription? There is no fix and never will be one it is society (the players) who make and break the game not the companies that create them. Everywhere you look there are people who play games and are always trying to be the top dog., streamers are no different as the society dictates the success of the streamer. Twitch is just another company making money.

[@Kittsuera]

all things that sound nice but in reality its the "be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it" slower pace creates more meaning for the work make things hard to acquire but not impossible the skill gap is tricky though maybe the idea of "easy to learn but hard to master" if every class is unique then there is value in having that class. each with their advantages and disadvantages.

[@Torguish]

I dunno about that. The DPS and DTPS is quite different between different skilled players. I find a lot of classes are unique in essence, the biggest problem is where the combat feels mostly the same. Build -> Spend -> Fill -> Build -> Spend. Add another resource and it literally always means you have to hold out like feral druids, monks or balance druids or DK's. Because you run out of something OR some other resource does not match up with the other one so you need to pool or wait for something. But there's a big difference between good Retri paladins and bad ones as an example. Same with DHs, rogues and most casters. I kind of hope they add more ways to approach combat along with more meaningful and "exclusive" rewards for "high-end" players in terms of different players. Players who like professions, players who like to grind, players who like long and challenging questlines. Something very powerful. The biggest thing is (IMO) - WoW is very ''competitive'' today in a way where it's probably hard to give something super powerful to people. Like, if you give something super powerful in PvE, they will be by essence way more powerful in something like WPvP or in the worse case scenario - plain PvP. That would also pretty much make something like that a must have in high-end raiding and m+ to be and stay competitive and lock everything behind something that most people will find tedious and boring - seeing it as a "compromise". Classic isn't competitive by nature. Balance is almost out the window and you play for the flavor and sense of purpose in both gameplay and the game itself. The main competitive nature comes from the ability to max our your class as an individual, not in comparison to everyone else. As an example: I will probably play classic and level quite actively and even dab into end-game content and get some cool things. But when it comes to leaderboard pushing like M+ or even PvP-ratings, i'll probably stay in retail because the game is almost built around such systems now. That's how i've felt during my time from 1-30 and memories since Vanilla at least.

[@ereder1476]

there is nothing wrong with a game being fast paced. even the need for food and drink before going to a exp-spree. a game like that could still be called fast paced.²² but all the otherissue on the other hand .. QoL for solo player (In a freaking MMO) are basically what caussed everything to be aquired easely (since wotlk) done are the epic quest to get an epic weapon requiring friends, IG friends... 40 of them. (damn that Quel'Serrar sword sent me to dreamland everytime) ²²either by increasing their HP or their damage (and thus you better manage well: short and difficult, or long and strategic fight) edit: btw, again: leveling speed =/= fast paced: if you play retail wow without using herloom etc: it's a CHORE to level past lvl 80 ... you just spam LFD and once you pass lvl 60 it's become slow as fuck because you have litteraly NOTHING until the next reward. 15 level fell like one and you grind it by doing the same thing again and again because that's the only thing you can do. and unlike in vanilla (even if it's just mindless monster farming because of the lack of quest) due to the global hardship of the game: it still was not unless because of how hard it was, everything was precious, every stone usefull... not the case in retail, everything below lvl max is trash . *So much so that they had to push transmog super hard and made wow into a doll game* . meanwhile _in vanilla: lower level item were ok because it gave elemendal resist, or skinning bonus for example_ .

[@patrickpol6156]

@Gissel: Boom right on the nose there but yeah they took all the fun out of the game only to replace it with easy item/loot farming for noobs and the LFG system kinda screwed up social play because when its to easy to find people those people wont realy value the individual because they can easily replace you but when its hard to find team mates for a dungeonraid/difficult quest people will be more respectfull and helpfull and just more social. So we just need to stop catering to these noobs/scrubs who will Always suck at gaming because they dont wanna do the work required to git gud and we need to make games harder and more engaging making the gameplay its own reward in and of itself.

[@condotiero860]

I see. I bet Bellular is the spirit animal for many programmers out there. Design goals vs marketing goals or longevity vs cash grab

[@BlueFlash25]

You can say he became face of the WoW Classic in a similar way as Ninja did with fornite, I really glad because he never gave up on the game for sooo long and did everything streamer could to make classic happen. This is pay of not only for him but for the whole comunity that finnaly get their beloved game back. I cant wait to no life classic since I didnt had opurnity to do so back in the day. :D

[@condotiero860]

@@BlueFlash25 nah bruh, Asmongold is a more accurate representative of the average vanilla player.

[@ceshmate1953]

Was about to say jagex did it first with old school runescape but then he mentioned it in the vid.

[@Varitok1]

@@condotiero860 I will be avoiding whatever server Asmongold plays on or any streamer in general. They will be ruining classic with their terrible followers

[@Sticklemako]

The most important reason classic was so good... You were one in a large group of people fighting in the world NOT the saviour of azeroth you now are

[@selalewow]

I noticed that with WoD. Suddenly I was the leader of the faction garrison, not just another person working there, but the full leader. I had to laugh because every player out there could not be the leader, but there we all were. Same with Legion. I was the Archdruid, not you. I had the legendary weapons, but wait, you have them too. It pulled me out of the game. If I wanted to play a saviour of the world game, I would play a solo game.

[@FluDispenser]

O M G ! Yessss! exactly!

[@AkiRa22084]

After saving the world so much it wouldn't make sense not to call the player - their savior. I remember people in Wrath complained: "Why are we collecting guano when we killed all the evil threats?"

[@BigDaddyWes]

The problem is players are convinced they don't have the time of day to spend on long term rewards systems in games, but they still spend 8 hours a day playing battle royales and Hero shooters.

[@kkknl]

There's a difference between long term rewards in MMOs and in BRs and hero shooters. Purely cosmetic items won't affect your gameplay experience, while MMOs require you to keep up with gear levels and so on.

[@guiblacksteel1519]

I wish I could frame your comment on my bedroom wall... I loved it!

[@seanwilliams7655]

Not saying you're wrong, but in those types of game you can log on, play for 30 minutes, and feel pretty good. Can't do that in an old school MMORPG.

[@BigDaddyWes]

@@seanwilliams7655 Why not? I've had plenty of days where I login just to check auctions and catch up with guildlogs or just hang out with friends while doing some travel or small chucks of skill training or leveling. There's also plenty of pvp related tasks that don't take 7 hours to complete. You can accomplish many goals over short periods of time if you want to. I don't know why there's such a misconception about how much time is required to get enjoyment out of MMOs. My point is so many people say they don't have the time, but will watch YT for hours and play 30 games of Fortnite every day and not realize how much of thier time they waste doing other things.

[@seanwilliams7655]

@@BigDaddyWes Most of the things you mentioned (outside of PvP), I would consider "character maintenance", not actually playing the game. Not that it can't be enjoyable. It was for me. I started playing WoW back in 2008 (early BC baby), and I would often do what you're talking about. But I don't think that will hold the attention of non purist. Especially with the amount of other things competing for the attention of kids these days. Maybe, and I said this on the WoW forums before, MMOs were always supposed to be a niche genre, and WoW's success destroyed the "nicheness" of it.

[@takco2596]

Really sick and tired of cash grabbing games. What happened to devs that believe in their game and genuinely WANT to make a good game, and the game doing well on it's own merit? No paid for early access/beta testing, no paid for dlc, no microtransactions, no loot box incentives to keep playing. Just a good ass game to play from start to finish. Obviously, subscription based games are different. Back in Vanilla WoW, I gladly paid $15 every month simply because I loved everything about it, it kept me coming back because it was actually fun. It was in depth, had a great community, great character progression, and an amazing sense of accomplishment no matter how much or how little time you spent playing. I honestly can't wait till Classic releases so I can stop wasting my time trying to find another game that I actually like.

[@sindweller]

For a moment I thought Bellular started making Asmongold reaction videos

[@SirNikurasu]

Asmongold reacting to elderly people reacting to Bellular reacting to Asmongold reacting to Nixxiom reacting to patch 8.2 | Assertonsin Asmongold Reacts

[@WingZX1103]

Maybe april 2020

[@UnbreakableRukawa]

Why have a team spend hours editing videos when you can just "react" to those videos for the same amount of money. *taps temple*

[@Tsuna_SoulSilver]

@Mason Rued and yet has more views than bellular....

[@Ebani]

@Mason Rued surprised pikachu face*

[@PGMP2007]

If gaming companies in general had 10% of what was explained here today. 90% of the released games would have a life expectancy of 5 years up to a decade based on how well they applied this concepts.

[@Keldiur]

Probably why Valve is still loosely considered a game company.

[@ProperlyBasic11]

That would be a great state of affairs. But, I get the sense that most of the major companies already understand these concepts and have made a conscious decision to go fort he addictive short term games because they think they can make more money out of it. Ethical awareness of addicting people to get them to spend more money than they would otherwise want and the creative value of making an excellent game seem to not be there with the decision makers.

[@BigDaddyWes]

But why would anyone develop a game intended to last 5 years when they can sell you the same Call of Duty game 5 separate times instead?

[@deadbutmoving]

One of the major differences between classic and retail wow is how the world reacts to you. On retail wow you are a literal God. You walk around and kill anything and everything, no mobs are dangerous, no need to team up, nothing to fear. It feels good for about 10 mins. then you get bored and do something else. On classic wow, mobs are very dangerous, you have to be careful what you are doing, you have to think carefully about what to engage, the world is far more threatening, you need to team up, you have to help each other. In classic wow I feel like someone who is ordinary doing extraordinary things. On retail wow I feel like someone extraordinary doing ordinary things.

[@barthez_]

Best thing about old MMO's - working together towards a big goal Worst thing about new MMO's - playing it solo because there is no point to play with others, in most cases they just slow you down

[@grasshopper1153]

Exactly! Before WoW, I was playing Everquest 2 and you had to group up to level up fast. It made the game more interactive and social. You needed people and people needed you.

[@channel7zip]

yeah, i’m gonna buy classic wow so i can make some friends for okce

[@Seanidor]

In response to what Barthez said about new MMO's... I'd say that 'sometimes' even the older MMORPGs gave you the feeling that playing with others would just slow you down, but not to such a great degree like in newer games. That feeling kind of depended on how easily you could solo mobs and how enjoyable the player interaction was designed. If it was difficult to solo then you were more inclined to look towards others for help. If it felt too troublesome to interact with people then you probably wouldn't play for very long. I feel like a good balance in difficulty needs to be made when it comes to doing things solo so people are more likely drawn to others, but developers REALLY need to work on how fun/enjoyable it is when they do interact with others. In modern WoW at the lower levels(and maybe higher too) it takes only a few seconds to kill a mob 2 levels higher than you, sometimes without even taking any damage, so you would hardly be compelled to look for others for help. There seems to be next to no interaction, except when they want to be incredibly toxic to each other. In vanilla WoW it took a bit longer and you would probably take a decent amount of damage. People were more compelled to interact at higher levels mainly because of the dungeons/raids. There was a decent amount of interactions and not too much toxicity. In vanilla Everquest it could take minutes to win a solo fight... but you probably would have died before that, unless you had high level buffs and/or twink gear. Also, as levels further progressed mobs became stronger and stronger in comparison to players. It became almost impossible for some classes to solo after leveling to a certain point. Even at lower levels people were compelled to interact. Also, "almost" no toxicity occurred partly due to the time period and requiring a monthly sub, but more importantly because of the game design.

[@Taronas]

The sad part is this is exactly what MANY of us have been saying is a major problem in gaming for years.

[@Taronas]

@zimThuet The average gamer is between 31-36 depending on what source you use. So that makes someone like myself (37) only a bit past the majority. In addition it makes complete sense to cater to players who want long term engagement as that long term income. Yes it may not be as potentially high but it's also not as volatile. You would think with the risk adverse nature of investors they would bank on the slower less risky group to cater to.

[@Taronas]

@zimThuet I think there is a little misunderstanding... I'm not talking about 1 purchase then that's it in a game designed for "meaningful work". As an investor that makes no sense... I'm talking about making the gameplay rewarding in the long run so it encourages people to play long term then just monetize access to the game itself via subscription. You know the old modus operandi of the MMO genre. Edit to add: I'm saying the problem is that everyone wants a quick fix instant gratification when the reality is that games with very slow, grindy, and consistent rewards coupled with no mechanics to speed up the process outside of just playing more is a far more appealing approach to gamers that also accomplishes giving businesses a consistent income... Basically you take the old philosophies that made games like 1.6 great and turn them up to 11 then instead of trying to monetize people with skins and crap you just charge them a monthly fee.

[@Paveway-chan]

1:42 "The 57th Rule of Aquisition clearly states that good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them."

[@Sorrowdusk]

Love me some Rules of Acquisition

[@Paveway-chan]

@@Sorrowdusk Always.

[@eemgee9352]

i feel like blizz are using the 87th Rule of Acquisition "Learn the customer's weaknesses, so that you can better take advantage of him." i feel like they will do something to dick us over with classic.

[@hawksley8282]

I'd laugh so hard if classic pulls in more subs than live, but hey we only think we want this right...

[@zackosborn1731]

It will, and watch in amusement as blizzard quietly begins to implement classic wow themes into their new releases.

[@totalscrub1960]

you fucks also wanted LFG, LFR. cata, dreanor, no legiondaries, no artifact weapon bullshit. the list goes on. and to be fair it was literally ghost crawler who fucked everything up the ass.

[@Mcspazz731]

Here in 2020 and can confirm it did, it doubled previous peak subs lmao

[@LilithOfTheNephilims]

I also miss the RPG elements the game had. Maybe it's just me, but I loved tweaking stats here and there.

[@todarfclips]

Yeah me too. I don't want hyperbalance.

[@finewheels]

Classic WoW played a lot more like D&D. Reagents for spells, world quests to get special abilities or skills. Rogue's thieving certificate, Druid water form quest, paladin mount, and so on. Hunters needed quivers for arrows, engineers made better arrows, everything was a bit more interconnected.

[@Slason22]

I'm finding myself being more choosy for all entertainment as I'm getting older, not just games. I, however, think there is a trend for more instant gratification, probably a combination of the two.

[@youstolemyhandleyoutwat]

Try Outward. Ign gave it a 5/10, said the game is not good enough and doesnt make you FEEL like spiderman enough.

[@youstolemyhandleyoutwat]

But seriously, its an amazing game made by a tiny (10 people) studio that is deep as hell. I played for about 15 hours before i finally began to truly grasp the mechanics of the game.

[@oliverclausen7707]

Getting older and realizing you shouldn't just throw your money at anything looking initially cool leads to you not really buying anything new because at second glance it all looks terrible or boring or both. AAA studios don't make games with passion or soul.

[@moonmessiah9368]

Oliver Clausen that’s what happens when something goes mainstream. The Devs of the 90s and early 2000s used to work more hours than these “crunched” amateurs and they did it for free. Video games used to be passion projects that they would pour their entire souls and hearts into. What once was an Art has been turned into a socio-science experiment for making profits.

[@Tibainium]

With an Asmongold thumbnail like that you are literally inviting him to watch

[@BellularNews]

big brain move

[@GarrusN7]

It worked. He's watching it right now.

[@chrisjackson1215]

Asmongold 😥 should just go away. He's such a lazy cancer.

[@hgibbons69]

@@BellularNews Big D*ck Dps, Bellular. wellplayed

[@Varitok1]

@Thatshow ED All he does is watch other people's videos and go "yeah, hmmm yeah" *nods head* "exactly". Anything his fanbase touches turns to crap to the point where mods had to step in on an rp server to fix the damage he did.

[@grimzler]

I got into the beta. and My level 30 mage has more abilities and dept than my level 120, 4 button rotation, arcane mage...

[@henrikswanstrom9218]

You'll love to PvE with that mage later on though. Embrace the Frost Bolt x10 -> Mana gem -> Frost bolt x10 -> Mana pot -> Frost Bolt x 10 -> Evo -> Frost Bolt x 10 -> Wand rotation Get what you're saying though. Having abilities feel extremely good, especially from a utility perspective. Wotlk and MoP were great when it came to class design and your surpulus of abillities. (Warlock, Rogue and mage perspective)

[@AzureSparx]

As far as I'm aware, mages have always had a simple rotation. But I agree with your point. I subbed to wow for the first time in 8 years because I was curious to see how things have changed since then. And well, calling the current state of wow bad, is a huge understatement. The game has been gutted so much that I want to quit only 2 days after coming back. Conjure Mana Gem, Conjure Refreshment Table, Arcane Brilliance, Molten Armor, Frost Armor, Mana Armor, Living Bomb, Mirror Image, are some of the abilities I noticed are missing. And I don't know how many spells are now restricted to one spec, like Evocation. Looking at this I'm surprised some abilities are still available to all mages regardless of spec.

[@KalispellBarbell]

Balance Druid although week, only used starfire. And not even at the highest rank lol

[@nis5475]

@@AzureSparx Met too bro, the classic hype made me sub. Absolute trash. I'm only levelling alts as the game at higher end is so far from what I know, and I wouldnt even know where to pick up as a 90 rogue. Add in the fact modern rogues are some kind of weird hybrid thing and its not even the class i used to enjoy. I now remember why I quit during the panda expansion!

[@chrishaugh1655]

Stop right there. When, in the history of WoW, did an Arcane mage ever have depth or a large ability pool? It never did. That's your answer.

[@sorcererpug2825]

As someone studying to become a game developer, I cannot begin to tell you how much insight this has brought me when looking back at my studies. They were teaching about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards as you mentioned, and it did not occur to me that this could be such a major part in keeping a fan base entertained by a game. Great video, keep up the good work!

[@Brickfrog427]

Man, I spent hundreds of hours playing TF2 even before Hats and cosmetics... Only the gameplay mattered...

[@Johannicus]

I did the same but in TF1 and DoD, the thrill and the "one more round" mentality was good in those games

[@NothingCoherent]

Same. I quit playing TF2 the patch they started adding all the extras. At the time I couldn't really understand why it wasn't fun for me anymore.

[@CazaliEiben]

I barely played 10 hours before it got boring to me.

[@kaibe5241]

@@Johannicus fucking LOVED DoD!!!! God they nailed that gameplay so well. I miss the days of mods.

[@ariezon]

@@CazaliEiben different taste. But do you have a game that have a good gameplay and makes you always want to comeback to it?

[@kiktamo]

It's a weird sort of balance issue especially with the psychology behind it. It feels like a lot of games just give you so much up front while at the same time many of the ones with things that you have to work for aren't really worth the effort put in. It's like both the journey and the reward are both lackluster because all of the effort was spent on just trying to get you to take the trip in the first place.

[@gavril1436]

This is rather insightful. I've felt the journey and reward were lacking for a while, but I haven't been able to figure out where I'm going wrong in "journey" choice. Must be paying too much attention to the advertising than the content they are advertising. lol

[@BigDaddyWes]

It doesn't really compare well to WoW specifically because of it's subscription based model, but all game publishers want is to sell games. What they fail to realize is reputation and long lasting quality and consistency is much more lucrative than a shiny coat of paint on the same boring mechanics designed for instant gratification. But in the end it hardly matters because poorly designed short term experience games do sell well even if they don't hold a players interest for years. WoW and mmos are different because they are intended to be long term commitments. Everything will go stale eventually, but subscription based models require you to be there for a long time. They just have to realize that the short term brain drugs don't work forever and that people want to play a game that's intrinsically rewarding and not because they are attempting to scratch that next loot box reward itch every 10 minutes. You can't treat players like pigeons pressing a button to get a piece of food if you really want to retain their interest long term. Minecraft is one of the best examples of successful long term development of a hyper attention retaining game because the gameplay and your personal goals are what bring you back, not some log in rewards and daily achievements laundry list you feel obligated to accomplish.

[@GallowsofGhent]

the problem with structural analyses, dividing it up into "intrinsic and extrinsic rewards", is that you can use it to justify both your point and your opponent's point if you raised this specific issue with Blizzard, which of course people have done for years and years, they'd tell you they're listening and adopting the method into their design philosophy and only then do you get extra loot rolls and theme park rides precisely because you say "we want meaningful questlines" do you get overly involved quest lines that physically and emotionally drain you cos now every quest is directly related to the zone and you get cinematics and voice acted character monologues, which is nice once in a while, but exhausting after the fifth time in half an hour and then you turn around and say "wtf, blizzard! this isn't meaningful" and blizz goes "wtf are you talking about? we're giving you what you want!" it pays to go beyond structure, to take a post-structuralist view; keeping structure in mind and paying close attention to the effects, both direct and indirect when people use the word "meaningful" I always shrink back a little bit; the word "meaningful" may ironically be the most meaningless word in the English language it's certainly true that people fill in the concept of meaningful in different ways, so why should there be a cure-all design for questlines and zones? Vanilla up to Wrath had it right: that the less involved the game developers are in their own quest lines, the more meaning you end up creating because all the quests were equally uninvolved, different ones ended up being involving to different players I'm sure everyone has their own favourite questline (one I still remember fondly is the Archeus questline in Duskwood pre Cata) because players had to make their own fun, they had to involve themselves into the uninvolved world that's exactly true for the slower speed, too because it takes so long to acquire anything, players have to imagine their progression that is, they set their own goals and do their own work dilligently in order to achieve it those words and that process is all self-constructed, which isn't to say it doesn't exist or that it's bad, but it hasn't been constructed for them by Blizzard and that's what makes it meaningful, truly is that you could log in and set your own goals and do your own work in order to acquire it, which in your mind meant achieving it nowadays, the word "achieve" has lost its meaning in WoW precisely because of its overuse because everything is an achievement, and so nothing is that's really why people enjoy Classic so very much is because they're all equally shit out of luck so everyone gets engineering grenades for PvP fights and everyone fawns over random green drops cos that "means" something on their own personal road of progression where "achieving" a good time is the only thing that's truly "meaningful"

[@lordhughmungus]

This is an excellent post.

[@suethao14]

I love the old rpgs. Even though one lvl only gave you one will point, it felt rewarding; and makes you want to work for the next lvl.

[@Kunori]

I think I see this most clearly in Heroes of the Storm, myself. I get it into my head that I want to play a certain character, then I log on and it says "today's quest: play [X type of character] 0/3", and I go "oh I'll grind that out, then". Then I do that, and once I'm done, my desire to play the game is completely gone. The leveling system works similarly. In HotS, when you level up a character, you get a loot box. Nice! But then I see that giant new xp bar until the next level, and for the next few months at least, I can't bring myself to play that character at all, because look how long it'll be until the next one. No thanks. Which doesn't happen in traditional "leveling" RPGs. In those, when I leveled I'd be excited to play more, because my character is stronger now and I want to experience that new power. If leveling doesn't get you any power, though, it really only acts as a detriment.

[@Dale.Woodall]

This is the best explanation of the "grind for useless loot box" I've seen. It also explains simply why we enjoy levelling in rpgs. Well said @Kunori

[@the_schmoopsie]

Much like what he says in the video, everything now is so focused on being flashy. Even GoT turned into a dragon battle show at the end. But what we all loved about classic is how it was a world with people you'd recognize because you had to get their help 20 levels ago on a quest. It was so much more atmospheric and immersive. Now you just follow the yellow pips on the map, kill the things or click on the giant yellow sparkly thing.

[@Trefalas]

heroes of the storm is a highly competitive game as a moba. If the essence of ur motivation are the freaking lootboxes from charakter leveling (boosts, flashy skins, mounts, sprays and all that shit - sometimes a hero), mate I'd doubt your interested in the game at all

[@Kunori]

@@Trefalas Buddy, I LIKE Heroes of the Storm. I think it's the best moba of the bunch. Decent maps, fun distinctive characters, great artstyle, and far less toxic salt than in comparable games. I've played it since the beta. I'm only missing like four or five heroes off the whole roster. And DESPITE THAT, I think there's a problem. Did you even read what I wrote? The lootboxes aren't my motivation, I'm saying they make me LESS motivated to play.

[@Trefalas]

@@Kunori I did, did you? It seems like you get distracted by a quest which asks you to play something else than u intended to, for the sake of golds and crap. It seems like you wouldn't play a hero when the heros level bar is far from being complete. Now you want to tell me, these quests destroy ur motivation to play? You don't have to play the quests. You don't have to open boxes. Beside the very rare chance of getting heroes (since you are also a beta vet you certainly have most of them anyway) there is nothing game relevant from these chests/quests. So why does your game experience suffer? From what you wrote it seems, you either are not that interested in the game at all, or for some strange reason you feel like you have to play these useless daily quests, which - as I said - I totally don't get. I log in, I enjoy ranked and ranked only, I log off. Why would I play the quests? How do these affect my game experience in an imposed way in HotS? Pls tell me I am curious.

[@nilpointfive]

It seems many of the changes to modern WoW were to accommodate a player base that was getting older, gaining more responsibility and losing free time. Those people need to grow the hell up, raise their children and let us have our games we can ruin our life with!

[@GoddessPallasAthena]

Came in at the end of Vanilla (though leveling through Vanilla zones during TBC, I don't think, was that different from Vanilla days). At first, when I was thinking back, I thought I liked it because I didn't know any better. I was in the Stress Beta for a few hours and the thing that hit me was, I was always striving for something and getting rewarded. Yes, CONSTANT rewards. You leveled up more slowly, but when you did, you got SOMETHING. While people decried the OLD talent tress because they became cookie-cutter for end-game, while leveling, clicking on one of the boxes was something to look forward to. Most levels gave you a spell or new rank (if you could afford it). You saw stat increases indicated in your chat window. Also, if you had a hard time accomplishing something, leveling up made you more POWERFUL and able to take down whatever you were having a problem with. Leveling felt like progressing. Now, even though levels go faster, I feel like I'm getting nowhere. With the ability "pruning," there's less to gain as we level. With SCALING, we are no stronger than we were at last level. With CRZ/Sharding, most of the people you meet mean nothing since you aren't likely to see them again. (I seriously think that many of the old Artifact Traits, since they were mostly passive, could have been worked in to be gained when leveling. It would have at least increased the things to look forward to and make you FEEL more powerful).

[@chinogambino9375]

I remember with Diablo 3 they removed skill and stat points meaning there were basically no builds and no point rerolling. I dropped it after a month and never looked back. Blizzard's game design has dumbed down so much over the years it hurts but what hurts the most is the hubris, I've seen it in SC2 and OW. Reverting changes hurts their pride so much they practically have a policy against it. WOW classic is a huge walk back for them after years of telling people they are stupid for wanting it and I bet a lot of senior staff hoped it would fail.

[@talacocheta9001]

Actually, the devs were the ones who said that the talents were cookie cutter - not most players. Because there will always be a "best," so many of us wanted to keep the old trees with all of the choices that we used to have. The biggest mistake that I've seen WoW make is taking away player choice in so many forms; like you said, pruning abilities (they took 18 away from my Ranged Survival Hunter before removing it, too - pvp vendors, getting loot from old dungeons/raids unless you're 11 levels higher, et cetera. Oh, and I loathe scaling. It's why I won't try ESO. Loving FFXIV now, though.

[@syraxis]

@@talacocheta9001 lol did you know that in shadowbringers, theyre introducing scaling?

[@talacocheta9001]

@@syraxis From what I understand, the scaling is for side quests to scale to our level. That is fine. What I don't like is having every mob in every zone scale to my level, and then at max level, to even my gear level - like it is in WoW now.

[@syraxis]

@@talacocheta9001 mhm I believe that is the case, but YoshiP said that they are likely to expand the system in the future to the entire world, which would more than likely include all mobs

[@jeffreypeterson2]

What a brilliant video. spot on analysis of the current trends/problems in modern gaming.

[@chaosdirge4906]

I would argue that it doesn't cover the whole point. but, it does cover the main areas. Things that anyone that's been playing games since the 90's should be aware of in some form as to what is wrong with current gaming. But I'd like to add going back to Examples like Destiny, and this might count toward meaningful relationships. I don't do the Raid activities because they feel too hard to get into compared to MMOs. I'd like to raid, I like to raid in other games, but the system they have set up is fundamentally flawed in the game and creates an environment that alienates players from wanting to thus creating more players that just think they are better in the game. Only like 10 percent of the people for Destiny 2 have an achievement for clearing a raid. and I'd argue that a even smaller portion of that has cleared them multiple times. I like the complex puzzles that they had for doing stuff to unlock certain rewards. but I also think they should give people a better means to naturally interact as that's what gives older MMO's the ability to have raid like mechanics and meaningful relationships. Otherwise it just feels like a toxic environment with people constantly telling each other they suck .

[@thexiroy]

There was a classic pvp tournament yesterday where even the Twitch streamer Sodapoppin got over 100k viewers.

[@havtor007]

Hype is what it is called even shit games get a lot of views if established streamers play it Anthem is a great example.

[@havtor007]

@Frankfurt School Shooter that is irrelevant to the fact that streamers are playing it streamers that already have a following and could be playing anything and people would watch. It is the hype machine at work. Sodapoppin is a great example of a hype streamer he gets paid by companies to play there games and people watch it no matter the game. Time will tell if it is just hype or not. The beta is not even at max level yet.

[@Aztheron]

I wonder if Asmongold will get Jebaited by the thumbnail before realizing he's not on the video. OMEGALUL

[@vamperic]

Always an improvement to not have that turd in your vid xD

[@magnontaur]

You just created a video of exactly the thoughts I've been having. Well made!

[@acdcat9693]

seems the mind control is working...

[@charlay23]

Absolutely feel like you hit the nail on the head with this one Bellular!! I hope it goes widespread, this really needs to be heard, considered and thought about.

[@skkim0217]

Well analyzed about the intrinsic and extrinsic reward issue in the retail. Well done sir well done.

[@TheSpartanOne]

@c b I agree. Remasters are extremely common in the modern gaming industry and WoW Classic is definitely Blizzard take on that marketing strategy. There is nothing unique about the concept of Classic WoW.

[@Keldiur]

Why does there need to be something new or unique to Classic WoW? It has been gone for so long outside of the odd Private server that does well that it is night and day compared to retail on the differences.

[@Keldiur]

@c b and the people who want to see things past BFA? I suppose they could do both but right now do you really think Activision/Blizzard would spend that kind of cash? The only way I could see them do that is to riddle the new content with more microtransactions shit, a concern I still hold due to what Activision has done with their remasters. If the gaming industry did not go to shit I would be all for an "alternate Azeroth". As it stands, low effort remake is the only way I see this game staying true to what it was. Something I look forward to playing if that is the case.

[@ThisisCitrus]

@c b You're obviously too ignorant to know why classic is important. So I'll enlighten you, my sweet summer child. Remasters of games may be the trend, but not remasters of MMOs, know why? Because they are a direct competitor to the main MMO. You can see that with OSRS as Bellular mentioned, it pulls better numbers than RS3 and therefore got development. It showed Jagex what people wanted, and now OSRS has NEW content. The remastered game is now in redevelopment. Your arguement is why doesn't blizzard release classic with new content. Because right now, just like OSRS, it's not what people want. People want classic as it was. And for once Blizzard is giving people what they want. What happens next is everything though. When classic launches and retains a playerbase of more than BFA then it shows Blizzard what we want. It opens the door to completely remake WoW, imagine if classic wow becomes the only WoW and goes back into development to fix the issues that turned it into the BFA disaster. You're thinking on such a small minded scale.

[@ambds1975]

Suddenly, my deep love ---> total boredom with Warframe makes sense.

[@darksunDS]

One thing i'd consider evaluating in the context of this conversation is not just the games themselves but our mentality/perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder how much of this problem is not on the devs but also on us. Given the point about attention grabbing you mentioned, i'd like to posit that the number of available games and options has also pampered us *to an extent* . I think back then the number of options were fewer by comparison. It was also harder to communicate and share our frustrations (i'm talking of course before or around 2000s). We would have been more likely in the past to stick with a game despite its shortcomings. Nowadays too many options leads us to entitlement, for better or for worse. The communication and especially the negative experiences are multiplied online by an order of magnitude.If we don't like something, everybody knows the same day, or the next at worst. I hold by my assumption that if Anthem came out 10-15 years ago, it would have been a landslide success, not because of its technical brilliance necessarily, but because of our perception and patience. We would have stuck with it. We would have created our communities and *made our own fun* just like we did in vanilla wow and all those older games. Everything you said in this video rings true, but i do feel that to an extent we are also the cause of this and too much of the blame has been placed on the creators. These games have not become "faster" in a vacuum, and i think us as consumers do need to also consider how our actions have led to this.

[@gavril1436]

Sorry for the wall of text, TLDR at the bottom. I agree. I think there is truth to what you are saying, but I also think that you need to take innovation into account. Yes there is a sense of entitlement, but it is (opinion coming up!) justified because we expect these companies to learn. If anthem had come out 10-15 years ago as it was, I don't think it would have been received well then either. Not because of the loot, or game-play, or whatever, but because it was released in a half finished state. Back then, we expected (rightfully) a full game. Without the modern auto-update patches and DLC etc. being right there, a web-page away at the most, I don't think anyone would have given Bioware slack for a game that looked absolutely nothing like its E3 trailer. Now, if it had been finished, and just had boring game-play, and/or lackluster loot etc. I think they would have got flack, but people would have made the most of it, and made a community out of it, because to an extent Bioware and the gaming community as a whole didn't know better. We hadn't seen something like the Witcher 3 or the Division or whatever (I play mostly single player so having a hard time coming up with a "good" live service type game) to compare it to. That said, I think consumers have dug their own grave in tolerating the bullshit the games industry is spewing. I often bring up govt elections because it has some parallels; people vote like sheep and then are surprised and upset when the wolf is voted into office. Same thing with the economy; people buy because of FOMO for example and then are surprised and upset when it turns out the corporation is just gauging its consumers, and doesn't really care about making a quality product. TLDR: Anthem sucked because it was half baked AND was just a shitty game (game-play, loot, etc). Used to be, we didn't know better because the industry hadn't learned from inovation. Consumers are as much to blame because they are the ones buying the snake oil.

[@darksunDS]

@@gavril1436 i tend to agree with most of your sentiment. That said, one thing i'd argue against is the idea of patching and improving post release. back in those days, that didn't exist. we got what we got in the state it got and we'd either take it or leave it with very little outrage. I tend to disagree that Anthem is a bad game conceptually. game play IS fun, story is shallow and end-game grinding is bad, i agree, but the base is quite solid. The issue with anthem more than anything else is comparison. There are games in the same genre that make it look bad. Not to say that is a bad thing. I think if there are better options, we should definitely go for better options. Anthem possibly wouldn't have been received well back then as you say, but it also likely wouldn't have been thrashed to the extent it has been. My point was mainly that after a certain critical mass point, outrage is overblown and often that critical mass point has gone down more and more to the point, in some cases, it could be considered an unreasonable standard to meet. (not necessarily Anthem, just a general point). Outrage is often warranted and i definitely agree with voicing one's displeasure, but i also think people should *pick their battles* as they say. Not everything is worth the attention it gets.

[@gavril1436]

Agreed.

[@mikelavigne1370]

darksunDS well put sir, well put. We do need to take some responsibility as consumers for helping to create a landscape of vacuous games.

[@VaporSulla]

Exactly! "Sense of meaning", words that Blizzard, in pursue of an utopian inclusiveness, has long forgotten.

[@wade2112]

Part of what made them successful was gameplay optimization. I could play wow cata in 2009 at 30 fps on my old 2001 computer with 512 mb of ram and no video card. Led me into 10 years of PC gaming and eventually back to wow

[@ryanpruner1853]

lol. what does that even mean dude.

[@VaporSulla]

@Bantirat You're obsessed with politics.

[@Lucitaur]

Dark Souls is one of my favorite games ever because it didn't bait me with some trick into playing and finishing it (many times), but because the gameplay itself was fun. All the loot and stuff I found on the way were just cream on the glorious cake that is its gameplay and rest of its design. Similar with Morrowind, the Witcher series, and the Total Warhammer trilogy.

[@Gorgarot]

It feels like i'm getting more joy from loosing a chance to receive the "limited time only" reward then actualy obtain it.

[@DeadGuyPlays]

I fucking hate that. It takes away the feeling of earning something and they replace it with the feeling of earning the chance to get something you prob don't want.

[@GamesandNonsenseUnleashed]

Absolutely agree WoW lost my attention when the lack of intrinsic things started to vanish- exploration, combat that was deadly, making social connections, etc. For me, it was all about the intrinsic values ...

[@syraxis]

I mean, there are some definite valid points here, but I think also a lot of it might be rose colored nostalgia glasses. The leveling was indeed a better thing, you felt like you gained more power, and you were stronger with every level. You were a member of the rank and file, and you had to earn the respect of the faction leaders by helping the population. The talent trees, while yeah a bit cookie cutterish, still had the feeling of choice, even if you had to choose specific things in order to raid, and gave that feeling of something happening with each level. That feeling of bonding, yeah thats a lot more nostalgia there I think. Since the servers were essentially closed off, a lot of the communities as a whole became very elitist. I saw tanks and healers get forced to either quit the game or reroll, hell even myself as an enhancement shaman, couldn't get into a raiding guild because "shamans can only play restoration", which I ultimately did, cause I wanted to see the content. The leaders of the raiding guilds essentially became the gear gods, deciding who could and who couldnt be among the chosen.... And also, a lot of players burned out in vanilla wow too. Its not just a modern problem. Once you hit cap, there isn't a whole lot to do. Raid, which involves getting into a 40 man guild, and spending all of your time gathering everything you needed to raid, then raiding. If you couldnt raid, there were dungeons, which were really fun, and gave okay rewards. And that was it, cause battlegrounds, and PvP ranks weren't a thing just yet. So there is a problem with not having enough to do, but also, making the stuff to do entertaining as well, and not just, oh gotta do the daily chores.

[@TheVelvetiron]

Story. I miss story. Play modern WoW the lore is burried. In old school WoW it was a component of the game. That is the difference.

[@Jaigarful]

It always saddens me when I read feedback on any game and I see a focus on extrinsic rewards. Happens a lot on the WoW forums.

[@Rokabur]

That's because the true fans have been abandoned for the lazy casuals who need rewards instantly on-demand without putting any effort into it.

[@Jaigarful]

@@Rokabur Don't blame this on "the casuals". Its not necessarily even them. Look at what happened with Azerite armor. The complaints about the extrinsic rewards of M+ and pushing for more sources for faster gearing. Sure, casuals may have had a hand in that, but it was mostly beneficial for mythic raiders.

[@Rokabur]

@@Jaigarful Never played Wow so i wouldn't know. The only time I tried to play WoW was back iin 2012 I think when Sony had the security breach and EQ was down for days. I decided to try out the free trial or whatever they were offering to capitalize on what had happened to Sony but the installer just ended up freezing my PC TWICE so i just gave up.

[@Lokiism13]

This is so true. The meaning of progression has changed so much. And the result of your effort in most current games has mostly became things that were locked behind paywalls. WoW classic actually felt like a unique item is only for you or for those people that put the effort it actually felt rewarding.

[@WingZX1103]

You get that new gear, you earned it with your two bare hands

[@shoutube6259]

Where's the INTRO music from? 0:25

[@Teknopuls3]

What's wrong with MMOs today?? 1. Oversimplified gameplay resulting from a playerbase screaming that the original game was too hard. 2. Loss of classes. A Shaman can tank, heal, DPS etc. Any class can effectively replace another which loses specializations and the need to work as a team to take advantage of each others abilities. 3. You don't have to 'earn' things as you did before. Want a mount? Here you go! Want lvl 90? Click here! 4. Economy: Use to have to start saving for a lvl 40 mount at lvl 30 just to earn 100G to purchase the mount! Today? 100G doesn't buy you a 1/4 stack of copper! 5. Death: What penalty? Easysauce button press plz. In the end and as can be seen in many past MMOs, you had to spend weeks or months to progress through a game and the reward that made the game fun was finally achieving whatever it was you were looking for. I remember when WoW introduced it's first weapon enchantment...that red glow...You were badass if you had it because it wasn't easy to get. Today? Everyone is running around in purple gear when in the past, having a full set of blue gear from Stratholme or BRD was the shit! It's not IF you have purple...it's what LEVEL your purples are. Just like Syndrome said "And when EVERYONE is super...no one is"

[@MRwho35]

WoW Raids before LFR was what kept me going back in the day. It was hard to get people coordinated but it was fun as hell and just defeating the boss was already a huge reward on itself, the only game I ever felt the same feeling was from Souls games. The expirience you would feel from exploring those world was also incredibly rewarding and would reveal so much more of the content then being given a straight path for you to walk. Challange and Meaning, I think these words best describes what made both games so epic and how much they influenced gaming as a whole over the years.

[@gantzuka]

Yeah? Well before is what made me not bother with them at all.

[@MRwho35]

@@gantzuka k?

[@Hiramekiza]

@@MRwho35 Different opinions are different?

[@MRwho35]

@@Hiramekiza Elaboration does help to get the point across better though.

[@Hiramekiza]

@@MRwho35 Hm, elaborate eh? I spent all of TBC doing nothing but quests and maybe 3 runs of Karazhan because getting into a guild or a guild clique was proving to be an exercise in futility. I had no chance to see any content beyond dungeons that often took 1-2 hours just to get together. Which meant I could do 1 or 2 dungeons a day at most. When LFD came out, it opened up the game, and LFR blew the door open. No longer did I have to be beholden to other people's absurd requirements. I finally had a game to play.

[@JusticeChrist]

The bit about intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards made me realize that that's why I lose interest in an RPG as soon as I hit the level cap. When there's nowhere left to go, why continue?

[@reeven1721]

That’s something video game RPGs will never beat pen & paper on. Limited, designed, programmed game worlds vs. limitless storytelling possibilities. Until strong AI comes around to fill the DM’s boots our games will always be capped.

[@vwlssnvwls3262]

I've been saying this for years. I love challenges, but there is no challenge in doing dailies for rewards. I want to feel like I have earned my rewards. If I am playing a game where I create an avatar, I don't just want that avatar to be a tool. I want to feel a connection to my avatar. When I design a character I design them with a back story in mind, with an actual personality and meaning. So when I spend hours with this avatar I want it to mean something, to be worth something and to ultimately make me feel like I have achieved something. And doing this in an environment with thousands of other people is just more rewarding over all.

[@cattysplat]

This is why random powerful rewards for easy content in retail WoW like world quests, warfronts and a weekly mythic dungeon run are so godawful terrible and ruin the experience of the RPG of slowly getting stronger and progressing through the upgrade levels and tiers. You want to go on a journey, experience a struggle, learn and practise a strategy with other players, then get rewarded for your efforts and have others see your achievements and success in game being worn on your character, all of this happened in Vanilla WoW. Instead in retail you get free top tier gear for doing the most basic of actions that anybody could do with little effort all by themselves, it has no meaning and feels terrible like getting money from welfare, nobody cares about gear because it's so readily replaced now and the only challenge left is to do top difficulty raids which only a tiny % of people do or care about in today's version of the game since you can just do easy difficulties and receive the same story experience whilst pretending your getting the same gear and boss challenge. It's sad, unrewarding and very lonely, there was a time people would play WoW all day and all night, but I can guarantee you almost nobody is doing that in retail WoW today. Bring on classic WoW and bring back the memories of why we loved these MMOs to begin with.

[@billwumsen4108]

i just couldnt put it into words but it felt like something was bugging so bad the last few years and THIS just says it the best! thank you, REALLY!

[@VbrSoro]

you look much healthier,im glad!another amazing video as always is also a big plus!

[@agentshibe]

Now watch every other company do the same but tarnish it with microtransactions. God, that bill better pass.

[@Sorrowdusk]

If it does they'll find a way to tarnish it. "Life finds a way" -Jeff Goldblum (Ian) , Jurassic Park (1993)

[@burningphoenix6679]

Agent Shibe remember to contact your senators to tell them to support it.

[@Collinoscopy4000]

whats the soundtrack at the beginning of the video?

[@JakeSezz]

I really appreciate all the depth you put into this video and content. I also think, in some ways, it’s over complicating a much simpler issue: nostalgia will always outweigh a new experience for many people. The value has already been established. For me, this is why there’s the interest in Classic: those who have played (while not necessarily paying) on private servers longed for that OG feeling of WoW, while those who did not get to experience Vanilla have heard these grand tales of nostalgia and are naturally interested. Which is why, for me, it’s not the “rose-tinted goggles” that you mentioned: it’s nostalgia. I used to find myself wanting to play GoldenEye, thanks to the many hours of fun that I had...until I played it for the first time in 15 years. It wasn’t the same. Sometimes, we have to learn that things were fun for that time and place in our lives. We evolve daily (or, should be) and some things cannot mean or feel the same as what that did when we first experienced it. It’ll never be the same. And to have the expectation that it will is setting oneself up for disappointment.

[@iljagobeyn8914]

I love your deepdives man, realy good points backed up by the literature :)

[@WhirlwindHeatAndFlash]

what a load of bs translation: If you have no life/no work + leech off welfare and are unable to find meaning in any other way. Then this game lets you do stupid repetetive boring tasks for thousands of hours so you dont feel like you really are stupid boring and meaningless. No thanks. Let the morons of the world have their fun for all i care. Does that mean everyone would enjoy playing this garbage? Hell no!

[@Jonassvensson-uv9zd]

Yes it was a good video. No it wasn't because he cited a book. Any argument ever made on the internet has a reference backing it up in literature.

[@Blue5teel1]

Up next asmongold reaction video to this video.

[@leeblackburn5682]

and I will watch it for some reason, lol.

[@Blue5teel1]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYK4hIWeiqx5a68 lol here it is.

[@Rapidpanda1st]

I remember Vanilla WoW as the ultimate 'go at your own pace' kind of game. You never felt like the only goal was to reach the level cap. You lived in that world, and your level reflected exactly how much time and effort you put in. It could take years to reach 60, especially if you were still young and in school at the time. Level 60s with full raid gear were a rare and awesome sight. Finally reaching level 40 and saving up for your mount felt like graduation. Your first participation in a 40-man raid (which was all put together manually) made you feel like you actually accomplished something, you'd made it, you're playing with the big boys now. The whole world felt useful; instances were played because they were fun, not because the guild wanted to min-max their play time for the best gear/exp. Players had the time to level up their professions naturally through regular gameplay. When I stopped playing, WoW had lost its soul. Everyone was just rushing to the level cap, most instances were abandoned because they weren't optimal, there was no sense of realm solidarity, and hardly anyone was just playing for fun any more. Players just bought a level 60, grinded their professions up to Artisan through materials bought on the AH, and wondered why their experience felt hollow. In the moment I truly felt like an old greybeard, grumbling that the world had gotten way too fast-paced, and that everyone had lost sight of what's important. I'd feel like I was telling stories like "Back in my day.....when I was level 20, we'd have to run for half an hour between Duskwood and the cemetery, up hill both ways...." and how much easier the new players have it. Then I put it all together; WoW was a microcosm for the real world, and the same sickness that has infected the real world had reached the digital world too.

[@endx9]

This is absolutely a thing, and I'm now realizing that this is the reason why I've (mostly) not truly enjoyed a game since the mid 2000's. One of your best videos Bellular.

[@Ohshirho]

that transition from slow progression towards quick reward fix was not without a reason... sure, when you progress quickly through content eventually you become bored. On the other hand if you don't see any reward for a long time you become bored as well. That balance between progression and reward is what game industry couldn't achieve.

[@jmbrady1]

I already feel pretty burnt out in general from video games and have less desire to play any of them.

[@Dularr]

I think you are hitting a point there. Many people are burn out of playing video games, but are having problems finding other interests.

[@jmbrady1]

@@Dularr I just recently started playing D&D at a local game and comic shop.

[@Dularr]

@@jmbrady1 Good choice. Interesting trend seeing more people involved with board games and roll playing games.

[@alephkasai9384]

I usually get burnt out when I play games that are too similar and like there's so many games that are mediocre and samey that it really bothers me. Feels like going through slag.

[@andywascher2227]

Firstly--great video. Pacing, content, lack of typical gimmicks, overall I really appreciated the format of this video. This is the first of yours I've watched. Classic WoW is most certainly going to be a Nostalgia-bomb for many; myself chief among them. It's half of what draws me to it. I miss mauling things down slowly, leveling in Resto as a Druid. But there's also a 100% pure desire from me for the OLD days of MMO's and gaming in general. I want to be challenged, I want to *earn* rewards through hard work. I want to struggle. I want to think. I want to have to read the damn quests. I want to have to figure out how to use the tools given to me. I want to wrestle with a large spellbook to adapt and overcome difficult situations, and find clever rotations. I want to forge out into the world, instead of instantly porting there through a UI window while in town. I want to make friends and enemies with popular or notorious characters on my home server. I want names to matter. I want actions to matter. I want to be able to make a name for myself again through my actions. Vanilla WoW was difficult; possibly a little too difficult for a large slice of their userbase. Not outside their capabilities, but perhaps a little too much thought, time or effort was required than what they were looking to put in. This is an example of how referring to a portion of gamers as "casuals" came to be. I was the Druid class officer of , the top Wildhammer-US Alliance guild on my server, leading progression for our faction and only ever one boss behind our Horde counterparts. We actually saw Naxx before Burning Crusade came out. And that's part of the problem, or at least how it came to be. So many people weren't afforded even close to an opportunity to experience Naxx during Vanilla, despite a desire to. It was just heavily gated content. And it was fantastic, beautiful raid content. Blizzard came away from that experience wanting to find ways to allow for more people to see the content they were releasing, while still preserving the difficulty and reward of raiding. But with each expansion, more and more changes were made in that direction, until 15 years later here we are being spoon-fed content with slot machine loot rewards. When the process is drawn out over that long of a period, perhaps you don't see how you've swung from one example of an extreme to another. Maybe after 15 years, none of the original people were around to preserve the old ways. Maybe the playerbase spoke (with their wallets,) and decided they wanted the hyper-casual content. The "I only have an hour to play each day because I'm a working father" content. The quests-are-illuminated-by-giant-neon-Las Vegas-signs content. The content where you stay inside to play a video game, so you also want to stay in town to auto-queue/auto-port into a group, instead of forming your own group and traveling to your destination. But you're on the money with a couple things--perhaps the community is ready to experience the old format of games again, and perhaps Blizzard can learn from how Classic is received. The bottom line is that anything that is commercially successful is going to be reproduced and imitated. We vote with our custom. We can't completely blame studios and developers for skeezy practices and designs when we line up to buy those games. But while a few years ago people were increasingly vocal about anti-elitism and wanting open-gated endgame content, lately I've been hearing more vocalizations about what I started with--more effort required for more rewards that feel earned. [[TL;DR]] It sounds to me like we're starting to want less Participation Trophy gameplay. Also I don't know why the spacing formatting is inconsistent, it's being forced somehow.

[@Nakashi555]

World of Warcraft Classic is just the greatest re-rolling Blizzard convinced gamer to do.

[@somethinghippos]

@Ezra I still play gtaIV xD

[@Bonenz]

Gamers convinced Blizzard to make Classic...

[@SednovaNova]

The more of something you have...The less valuable it becomes.

[@natpick]

love your videos but i think you got this one wrong,just because wow classic is doing well on twitch it does not translate to people playing,these big streamers have avid fans to put it mildly and would watch them streaming anything,classic will have many players ive no doubt but will drop off alot after a short time when the grind kicks in.

[@communistwoman]

Well said. I could do without the constant quest pointers showing me where to go. In ESO, I couldn't believe I was given a piece of paper giving me hints on where to find an item. I was excited to do some exploring, instead I was left ticked off. As I approached the area to begin looking, immediately I am seeing a white arrow in the distance showing me where this "lost" item is. I don't want an in-game GPS. So, I turn off active quests in my HUD. So now that white arrow wont show up anymore, instead, my inactive quests are showing up in my HUD! It's unavoidable! I look into the forums, and what section do I see? Player add-ons and mods. Even the players I had asked about this problem have told me to install an immersion add-on. I haven't been hacked or scammed since I stopped downloading this kind of stuff. I intend to keep it that way. Instead, how about quest writers get shown a little respect, and let us enjoy the quests for what they were supposed to be. QUESTS! Today's games don't understand the meaning of this word!

[@kutark]

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm old enough that I grew up in a time when most RPGs you started out as nothing. You weren't the god emperor's son on a destined mission to save existence. You weren't the gods chosen one, etc. You were some schmuck who got thrown into a situation and had to make the best of it. You started out as nothing and became something. I loved EQ and was one of the people who saw the trajectory that wow was taking the genre, even in the vanilla days we all long for. I remember logging in as a human, and having to singlehandedly save the town church or whatever from a giant onslaught of kobolds or something like that. I remember being in EQ and getting my ass handed to me by a single rat, yet in wow from moment one I was some badass that could take out hordes of mobs singlehandedly. I get that it was epic and blizzard had this philosophy of being epic and fun and such, but the problem was it all came way too fast. The industry has gone so far down that toilet swirl I can't even play MMOs anymore. It feels like logging into Las Vegas casino or something. Fun to dick around in for an hour or two, but no long term joy to be gained. In hindsight I would give anything to play an mmo like classic wow because while it's not my ideal, it's certainly a hellofa lot closer to it than anything out now. As for the Rose colored glasses issue. Again I can't speak for anyone else, but when I went back and played Project 1999 (EQ emu server) I had just as much fun as the first time around as I did when I was a kid. Yeah I knew the zones, but I also got to play the game with the eyes and mind of an adult and that was great.

[@joyanstick4628]

Can't you buy blizzard and become their leader ? :) we need HUMANS not cash machine to lead

[@DiscoFinalBoss]

I sometimes question if Bellular is human and not some highly advanced computer capable of spitting out a bazillion (very good ) videos daily. Either way, I reckon he'd do a better job than the current heads.

[@sagacity1071]

We need a billionaire to buy majority share at actblizz and tell them they can only make good honest games. Anyone that suggests loot Boxes gets fired without severence.

[@Vaibryn]

You guys forget how much money they also have to spend to develop games. I'm not saying Blizzard is poor, but they have to guarantee stable finances for the sake of their employees and their games. Ofc they could lead their games differently, but if games would stop selling like they do it could be Blizzard's doom one day.

[@Kittsuera]

@@sagacity1071 i suggest loot boxes. WAIIT hear me out 1 second. we put boxes in the game that some times contain loot. you have to use lock picking or a black smith key to open them. we will call them treasure chests. all this is just game play no paying for the loot box. ;D

[@roqsteady5290]

The results are not always good when players try to make their own games (viz Kickstarter - I won't mention any names :)). Often player ideas are very naive and too convoluted to implement.

[@Holostone]

Yip yip, wahoo! Great video, great content. Thanks, Belluar team!

[@Shidan174]

You know, I had honestly never thought about it quite like that. I knew that more and more I've found myself being burnt out quicker on more modern games, but never totally understood why. Like I knew that multiplayer games were rife with that psychological stuff, but I never noticed the same or similar tactics being subtly snuck into single player experiences, changing the focus from playing the game to collecting these extrinsic rewards. As I watched the video I was thinking back to all of my favorite games over the years. Every single game that really managed to get my attention for long periods of time without the quick burnout, they had little to no extrinsic rewards to seek out. They had long term progression that was consistent but slow, and a few extrinsic rewards to provide a sense of reward and accomplishment, but also not enough to take over the gameplay. I'm now no longer going to be able to look at a game without using this scale. Excellent and enlightening video! :)

[@raycross5765]

Great video man, we all need to share this one. You hit it right in the nose about new games these days.

[@originalggx3021]

I think you nailed it with the extrinsic vs intrinsic rewards, and I think the intrinsic rewards go beyond just the community. Tbh I think a lot of the negative changes to WoW were spurred on by the players screaming for quick fixes that were ultimately detrimental to the game. For instance people wanted flying, but flying made the world feel small; people wanted easier grouping, but the lfg system seriously hurt community development; people wanted gear to be easier to get, but easier gear meant a focus on extrinsic rewards beyond the intrinsic ones; people wanted ways to see all the raids, but that led to lfr which lessened the satisfaction of earning the content. I really don’t blame the WoW devs at all, but I think their movement has been completely reactionary without having a stable vision and core focus through which they make every decision. I believe they made decisions to appease the community and had no idea the impact it would make on the game long term. If they are to right the ship of modern wow, I believe it will take them going back to the very core of who they are and where they are going. They need to re-establish their values, focus, and plan, and then build systems that come out of that base they’d set. It’s possible but will take a slow, more deliberate approach until they rebuild the foundation of modern WoW.

[@tirom8648]

Well said.

[@GemayelDaniel]

who knew we don't like being patronized by fake hand holding instant gratifying games. give me an epics over and over again, then all epics become worth a green item as you are degrading the whole rewarding system until i don't find acquiring new items satisfying anymore.

[@gantzuka]

Yeah but making it to the end of a dungeon or Raid and getting nothing is just a bad or maybe even worse. Not to mention player ninja rolls on gear.

[@shinnyshin7792]

For this exact reason, I've basically stopped playing all time-wasting games (most open-world games and almost all multiplayer) and returned back to old-school single-player RPGs. Games that were meant to be simply played and finished respect my time and my fun so much more, while games that try to force my engagement are just...the worst.

[@KiltedCritic]

While I would say tinted specs is a factor, I think that is in part caused due to WoW being the first MMO for so many fans of a universe they were already so invested in to begin with. On top of things like guilds, group/world quests, on top of the other game mechanics, you also had the onset of easy voice chat for the first time that for a lot of people deepened/further extended relationships with other players, as part of what you used it for was to organise what you were going to do or do next in the game. I can’t relate to WoW as it just never clicked with me despite loving the Warcraft universe from the RTS games, but I can relate to Star Wars Galaxies and the impact that had for me. It was a fictional universe I knew lots about and was very invested in it, I had never played any MMO before it, and then there was all the interactions with the other players in game, and the further interactions with guild members on teamspeak. I’d voice chat with them before, during and after playing Galaxies simply to organise what we were doing, and what we’d do next. Then throw in all the novelty factors associated with it being a first gen MMO, combined with what you rightly say with (for the most part) doing work in the game that’s meaningful. I’m doing X to work up to Jedi, or I’m doing Y to get my Advanced X-Wing. I interacted with a core group of guild folk so much, we all went to the trouble of meeting in real life in California, quite a trek for me coming in from the UK, but it seemed a no-brainer. Playing the likes of Galaxies or WoW back then I guess was kinda like falling in love for the first time, or getting to see live the first Moon landing in 69, or sitting in the cinema in 77 as the very first Star Wars film exploded into our pop culture overnight. No matter how better methods or technology are today, it’s something you just simply can’t recreate again in the same way.

[@shispir]

Bruh, OldSchoolRunescape constantly hitting over 100k online players paved the way for WoW classic

[@Dularr]

Blizzard would consider 100k online players a disaster.

[@PGMP2007]

Some will argue that people are just getting old. But I remember old people 70 years and older playing WoW at the same rate as 14 year old kids did. Its not a matter of age its a matter of design.

[@tompadfoot3065]

I had a couple ladies in my vanilla/BC guild that were in their 60's, they were awesome

[@kevinprince1674]

What game was shown @2:36?

[@Durgenheim]

Turns out that gamers really don't want empty vessels that serve as vehicles for microtransactions - they want deep, immersive experiences that challenge them and reward them appropriately.

[@kamberli545]

I have been trying to explain this exact thing to people for YEARS now, even back in Legion when they introduced a lot of these systems I was trying to tell people the game just didn't feel good it felt like it was just very heartless. Back in Wrath when they first introduced the dungeon finder I warned people of the problem of dungeon finder and it's 15 minute dungeon quick fix mentality. I think the biggest issue I've seen in WoW where this instant gratification mentality has hurt the game is the class design. They have tried so hard to accelerate everything and make classes very active and busy but none of it really matters. Warrior changes being the biggest thing I've noticed since it was my main for a decade before the changes but now they are very focused on keeping you busy with the idea of "rotation" being optimal. Do this thing, keep this ability maximized on uptime, KEEP BUSY!! And for a lot of us that's not fun. I liked the older warrior design that was very reactive and let you use your abilities more like cooldowns when you NEEDED them not just as busywork filler to keep you occupied. That very brainless concept of 1,1,2,1,1,2,3 is quite nauseating to me, more so than even just sitting there spamming Sunder Armor for the majority of dungeons but having your abilities actually matter during fights as opposed to something you're literally using every 5 seconds. There is no meaning to any ability that most tanks have nowadays aside from their one big cooldown and that is an awful feeling for people who want their character to matter. I feel like I should clarify that I'm ok with like damage abilities being on rotations but not defensive iconic class cooldowns. It would kinda be like taking a warlock and making you resummon their main pet every 10 seconds or having like some of the mini-cooldowns like Holy Avenger for Paladins or something and just spam casting them every 5-10 seconds. It takes sooo much of the fun out of the abilities and they end up just blending in and being unimportant.

[@DarylVanHumbeck]

"Highly juiced extrinsic rewards", is that anything like the Skinner Box techniques?

[@silence568]

Absolutely!

[@Christopher_Gibbons]

It's the speed. It is impossible to become attached to a place in the 15min you spend there now. Back in classic I spent a week in loch modan. It was my home for 10 levels. Not a quest hub, not a flight point, MY home. This one little zone had as much soul to it as the entirity of BFA. How an I supposed to feel connected to some bend in the road that is just a flight point a useless tent that you cant even get the rested bonus from.

[@ServMorrighan7]

What chris gibbons said......I never spent a week in loch modan, but I spent 2 in stranglethorn, and many long nights in other later level zones like Felwood and winterspring. by the time you left a zone you knew every tree and could run through it blindfolded. I remember stopping one day while questing in tanaris and I remember just catching this moment where I felt like "I am so far from home" That sun and sand, that MUSIC was so immersive. I cant find this in any game since. it was truly another world.

[@nestrior7733]

I had such a moment in Mists of Pandaria. I was leveling my Shaman at the time, just dinged 87, and then I had a thought. It would have been my third level 90 character, meaning that I would have to go through the same old motions a third time a week. And that's where the line snapped. I took a break until a month or so before Warlords. Which I played for about 2 months. During that break, I played on a Cata server and had a blast. If you have a good community to play with, it can be saved, but the moment you play mostly alone, you drop out. I dropped out in any way, in all cases mostly alone because time constraints and no one to really play with. Legion I had people to play with and stuck around throughout.

[@JasonBhoy7]

playing old skool runescape while watching this, if it isnt broke, don't try and fix it.

[@Keldiur]

There will always be a community for a well developed game. I know a few people who are coming back for Vanilla that only ever played Vanilla. It will not be for everyone but the audience exists.

[@Mrsteep90]

Long story short True sense of pride and accomplishment

[@FEARSWTOR]

Remember when walking around Ironforge with an Ashkandi on your back got you tells like "Holy CRAP! Congrats dude!". Saldean's Farm remembers.

[@LongToad]

Yeah, things don't feel rewarding if items are too easy to get and leveling is a breeze. -I'd prefer to not have a necklace for 20 levels than get incremental upgrades every 10 minutes.

[@TheVahnara]

@@LongToad Got a purple ring from a quest random upgrade in Redridge Mountains, and I just /sighed. The leveling was already brain dead easy and now I'm getting purples. Starting playing again since quitting in Cata and briefly in Mists because of the excitement around classic, it can not come soon enough.

[@greedling5300]

EA would like to know your location and Credit Card number.

[@brentbutler4443]

Great Video, have to say I have felt that empty part of games for the last 10 years. I constantly find myself going back and back to older games all the time, after playing some "shiny new" game for a few months. With all the new games I tend to just stop cold after a month or two, was never sure why, I have honestly thought age. However, this video really makes sense on what I think I've been missing from gaming.

[@cicerohellmann]

It is quite interesting the way you put things mate, very cool and insightful

[@kulvurt8386]

All so true, I am playing City of Heroes again and having an absolute blast.

[@jaredbrothers1344]

Wait, they brought it back?!

[@kulvurt8386]

@@jaredbrothers1344 Yup - kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6PWkHVsjLeFgK8 - Enjoy :)

[@chuehlor]

I wonder if they can make a mmo to give you the feeling of accomplishment like the Soul series and Sekiro.

[@Thoroniell]

Thank you! I was initially having fun with Eso's Elswyer and all of a sudden, I have zero motivation for it and I couldn't figure out why. Now I get it. The dragon fights are just a scripted chore, a dark anchor that's dragon shaped, without character. It's such a vapid theme park. Even the quests haven't held my interest and most of my toons are Khajiit. Funny, the other day I responded to a reddit post about Eso's loot crates; it was a player worried about overspending and not quite knowing why. After getting a drop, they no longer cared about the item but would still buy another crate. I talked about variable rewards and (imo) dirty psychological methods that they use to keep players in the game.

[@Hirogen7]

Spot on with the analysis, another great example is project 1999 classic Everquest. You get over the graphics in a few minutes and find yourself in a deeply rewarding world with mostly mature people. It’s refreshing to have to actually make friends and rely on them to get your major quests done. Have a great day, love the video

[@benjifiji2019]

i quit quit a month into bfa and to satisfy my loot craving i finally started Borderlands 2 and its the best game i have played in ages. The game play loop is fun rewarding and infinite!

[@SirNikurasu]

I personally hate Borderlands 2 (that shit doesn't run right on an SSD with a GTX 1080 and an i7-7700k for me) but i recommend FFXIV if you ever do miss Online games. Its AMAZING. Actual progression, nice people, rewards like classic had it ("OH SWEET A SHITSTAINED HELMET OF WOOD") that still feels great to pick up, etc.

[@ZDanielPhoenix]

This helped me realize exactly why I just do NOT want to play Warcraft again, despite being a release player all the way till the holidays of 2018.

[@gregesch5058]

You have analyzed gaming, yet have described the current society! Well done, well done indeed!

[@chemicalmix]

Excellent video mate, very interesting indeed.

[@benedictosamosir9109]

I feel like your points could be conveyed in half the time. Nonetheless, they were some good points!

[@Ivane_Maskhulia]

This is great Video. We are tired of modern games. I rather play old total wars and paradox games than modern useless stuff

[@charleswinters9567]

Total War Warhammer is awesome though

[@tompadfoot3065]

"modern games" is a big blanket there. I for one am beyond pumped for when Cyberpunk comes out, and the few big single-player games out there are still great experiences, even if some of them (I'm looking at you Tomb Raider) have flirted with the cash-grab model for extras.

[@captainmurphy4948]

I wouldn't write off modern indie titles, some of them are great. AAA can go die though.

[@christianweibrecht6555]

i believe that total war war hammer, is the best game in the franchise

[@SDB_Dev]

@Thatshow ED so just like AAA then? funny how that works..

[@skeezixcodejedi]

I think you've hit it right on the head; well done and well explained, sir!

[@xblackdemonx]

I 100% agree with you. In the pst couple of years I was owndering why I would play games for a couple of hours and then lose interest. Now I know that it's way the new games are made for the instant gratification. I cannot wait for classic WoW!

[@aspektx]

Give it 6 months, then analyze it again.

[@Griffden]

aspektx 6 months from now it’ll have more players than retail.

[@Kelgorr]

After having played games for over 15 years, I have gone back to old school runescape and I'm now also super hyped for classic wow. I'm more excited for it than any modern game for years. I'm not the only person that feels this way and it honestly has to say something about the kind of games/people playing them these days.

[@xaechireon]

I'd like to hear more on your decision to move to OSRS, if you don't mind. I haven't played either enough to feel strongly about either, myself.

[@Kelgorr]

​@@xaechireon Sure thing, it's a very grindy game but the freedom to pursue whatever goal you set yourself at any given time is fantastic. The quests are a huge improvement over other games since they all have story lines (some very short, some spanning over multiple quests). There is a lot of ways you can improve your efficiency and money making by reaching certain levels, quests done or achievement diaries finished. 99% of the content requires certain levels so if you want to try something you just immediately have a goal to work on. The satisfaction of achieving goals in this game has never been matched for me across 100s of games.

[@ferencdojcsak8576]

A couple more things: - Locked servers, factions. This is a big one, even bigger than most think. The fact, that you knew everyone who had Rank11 or above on your server, the fact that you knew which guilds cleared AQ yet (and that didn't change from week-to-week), the fact that (and this was true even in TBC and Wotlk) you knew who had 2.2k rating Shoulders, the fact that raiding Crossroads or Darkshire, killing Thrall or Bolvar was a server-event (and thus you were more connected to your faction and your server), or, the fact that because there was no dungeon finder, you had have a minimum amount of talk for a dungeon (and in many cases, you guys continued to do the next one, helped out getting the quests or talked the way over there) made the whole game more immersing. Social relations are among of the strongest internal motivators - and Classic allows for it big time. - Slower leveling/progression. Aside that what Bellular was saying, this is also kinda "locked" you to your character/faction/server. Rerolling wasn't that easy. I played WAY more back then than now, yet it's now that I have 10 max lvl characters. Back then people mostly identify you by your main, hell you even had a main.. - The mini-games of rotation. It's a commonly know and overly-stated thing now that over the years, rotations, abilities and tool are gone through pruning and simplification and Blizzard instead made the raid encounters themselves more interesting and challenging. I have nothing against the latter, but cutting away half of the spellbook (including wanding, weapon change and stance-dancing, spell ranks) removed one important aspect of the game: that even a simple grinding in Barrens was, in a way a challenging mini-game. I'm not talking about the difficulty alone - but how you had to plan to move from mob to mob, managing your mana, which spell rank to use, in which rotation, maybe even squeezing in a weapon hit for that Stave skill to increase, etc etc. You did have more control on what and when do you wanted to do. Just look at the lvl30 duel tournament - half of the spells available to the players yet thrilling, interesting, skillful and FUN. And this rotation, this min-maxing, which was also different in every situation also contributed toward your internal motives - noone cared about dps meters (most ppl didn't even had them), and using a couple Rank1 frostbolts, or applying Garrote and Rupture while not breaking Sap may be minor stuff - but important stuff, and skill which you were motivated to learn and practice.

[@leecousins937]

Awesome videos mate, full of clarity and industry insight.