It’s Time to Talk About Fallen Pastors…

[@jessicaharvey7446]

Truth must come out. My husband a pastor as well was unfaithful and gave away large finances for as well. While preaching and studying for Sunday messages. The bishop came before the church and told the church he stepped down for sin. He’s working on getting right with Christ. However, He was not. We are no longer married. Things were covered and he was free to go. It’s all sad. Repentance is needed. Restoration is needed. Where was accountability. Heart breaking really.

[@mariajmc6557]

Yes the fake church covers up for crappy men.... no one wants this church...

[@Christian4everish]

My heart goes out to you. What a tragic thing to have happen and may God give you comfort. 🙏🏻

[@asliketheson]

This is the issue in the Protestant church NO CHURCH DISCIPLINE and poor discipleship . Not antichrist like Rome but wow so many ways to fall .

[@ronlee5571]

@@asliketheson you just said a mouthful. Church discipline has been woefully lacking for over a generation in most churches. It’s about filling the congregation with the goats to fill the offering plate sadly.

[@adamgray07]

@@ronlee5571 The bible tells us who is saved and who is not. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: And he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

If all of the faithful men whom I trust, tomorrow became corrupt like the rust, I still have a glorious Lord on the throne, Whose crown shall not slip, and Who’ll me not disown. If all of the pastors though faithful for years, turned atheist after, and brought me to tears, tis Jesus I’m following my anchor unmov’ed, He’ll keep me from wallowing, He’ll keep my heart sooth’ed. I came not to men when He drew me nigh, for they did not spend their blood there and die, I seek not one thing more than eternal life, these words only spring, from the fountain of Christ. Herein lies my hope tis what stays my gate, though all men elope or become apostate, Lord I’ll not dissuade mine eyes are on Thee, foundations are laid sins cast in the sea. My hope’s not in man nor pastors who preach, that ground would be sand as found on the beach, on Jesus alone, I find my foundation, The Rock! not a stone, My Rock, and Salvation. Christ-ward mine eyes, fixed only on He, small faith is what tries, t'ward a-postasy. So find me the foremost faithful of men, and if they recant or have ill fated end, I’ll follow not them into lukewarming strife, for I've come to the Son, for eternal life. Scott Burn

[@jlg7290]

Amen! Beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

@@jlg7290 You're very welcome! Praise God! I've written a lot of these type of poems by God's grace.

[@gloriamorganjones7462]

May God bless you for sharing this. I will write this down and reflect on these words. Only the Almighty, Creator God our Father, Jesus, our Savior, and the Holy Spirit, our Counselor!!

[@loiscarteaux9389]

Thank you for sharing this!!!! True❤

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

@@gloriamorganjones7462 Praise God! You're welcome! Amen!

[@sabrinacarona7508]

I am so heart broken. Steve Lawson was one of my favorite teacher/preachers. We all sin for sure, but for someone like Mr Lawson, who is held to a higher standard, he knew the first time he had the inappropriate relationship that he sinned. But to continue for 5 years. Christianity is struggling today and we are our own worst enemies. This is definitely a black eye for the church. Continued prayers for Mr Lawson and his family.

[@DizziDot1]

If we feel this way imagine how heart broken his wife must be.

[@matthewperry2767]

Weren’t you ever skeptical about him insisting on being called “Dr” and not Pastor? It always nagged at me.

[@wellistik]

I have walked with the Lord for many years and have witnessed many godly individuals succumb to temptation, leading to public rebuke and the devastation of churches and ministries. No one is immune. I have observed that godly people fall when we replace the principles of God’s word with the patterns of this world. One such pattern is counseling. I often hear women seeking counsel from their pastors, even though the Bible instructs older women to train and counsel younger women. We have adopted the world’s pattern by referring women to pastors trained in counseling. Paul instructed Titus to teach older women how to live godly lives so they could train younger women. I believe that many failures occur when pastors become too close and intimate with women who are not their wives. I recommend that older godly women train and counsel younger women, freeing up the elders and pastors to fulfill their God-ordained duties of watching over the flock of Christ.

[@gmturco2075]

Very well said

[@rudolphferdinand3634]

"No one is immune." Yes, we are immune to a temptation. 1 Corinthians 10:13, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." I've been a believer in Christ since 1980 for more than 40 years, and God has always provided a way for me to escape sin. A case real story, my wife left me over 12 months ago. I have been married for 35 years; a neighbor stopped (female) and asked how I was doing, and my wife as well; I'm doing good, but my wife left 12 months ago. Then she said, "Well, my husband left me too; he took up an email relationship and then moved in with her, so now you and I, let's have dinner together." One of five times throughout my Christian walk with Jesus. Run, flee from sexual sin; God gives us the grace to leave every time. One last thing, "she said, sex feels good; an invitation." I ran to the border! LOVE JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL MY HEART! That IS the difference!

[@leenieledejo6849]

YOU might say that "no-one is immune" but Scripture DISAGREES with you! "Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". (1st John 3:8-9) I guess you're referring to those NOT born of God i.e non Christians by definition: John 1:12-13.

[@wellistik]

@rudolphferdinand3634 well praise God, that is why we need a savior who gives us the strength to resist temptation.

[@wellistik]

@leenieledejo6849 thank you for your reply and please send me scriptures so I can be taught. I don’t want to lead anyone astray

[@CaliforniaForever]

Todd Friel is exactly right about the doctrine of adoption, having intimacy with God, and remembering the power of the Holy Spirit as crucial doctrines that can keep us.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

God does not adopt anybody. It is false doctrine. I realize that translated bibles uses the term "adoption", but the Bible teaches that God begets literal children with His Spirit. True Christians are _begotten_ as Paul and Peter wrote. They are NOT adopted.

[@amiiboplush2177]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Hi Curious are you referencing 1 Peter 1? Wanted to understand the implications of that as you extrapolate it out? Thanks!

[@CaliforniaForever]

@@amiiboplush2177 just seeing your comment a month later and don’t remember exactly what Todd said but yes, you absolutely could use 1pt1 to support this. Adoption is a permanent state of acceptance by God that should give us reason to want to please God, intimacy helps us know him and love him more which draws us closer into communion so that we couldn’t imagine sinning against him. The Holy Spirit is our helper, he leads us into all truth, empowers us to live a godly life and transforms us into His image.

[@craighelgerson2698]

About 20 years ago, after being saved for 24 years, I would get frustrated when reading the fruit of the Spirit and could not see them operating simultaneously and consistently. I was "doing" all the right things and was conditioned to think that taking away anything was legalism. I finally began slowly eliminating TV, movies, secular music, and sports and then came back and saw improvement. I then abandoned CCM and all contemporary "worship" music and found all of the fruit of the Spirit operating while the Word became deep, cool water for the soul. I found temptations, and my thought life improved dramatically.

[@veronicapace7198]

Wow! And you did it all without falling into legalism. You did it by the leading of the Spirit. You are an inspiration. God bless you.

[@computech50audiobooks78]

Don’t be alone with a woman who is not you wife. Sometimes practicality is needed as well as spirituality.

[@Eternityawaits3579]

IF KOBE BRYANT PUBLICLY APOLOGIZED FOR HIS INFIDELITY, being a godless man, what should we think of the silence of a supposed redeemed man?!?

[@Mike-zy8in]

Well first of all celebrities arent the best example as they could just be the Enemies puppet who push his propaganda..How u may say? I use to like Ozzy Osbourne and Ozzy would promote smoking and I copied off of him smoking...Looking back on it he and Kobe are probably puppets (worldy figures who satan can give riches to if they bow down and worship him) (read the tempation of Christ)...keep in mind Kobes highest scoring game was on his 666th game in the nba...Also the bible talks about not looking down on your fellow man as u can fall into sin as well. Look up Galations 6:1...

[@USMC_Ministries]

Good point

[@BibicialCN]

Well….because he raped someone and was going to go to jail

[@john1-29_aka_LHT-LFA]

The fact that even reformed pastors became "stars", millionaires and untouchable is very dangerous and disturbing. No Pastor or Elder should become a millionaire based on his theological work in my opinion.

[@wmgatlanta]

God didn't command Pastors to die broke... I'm surprised that you know all of these pastors finances...

[@MosesMwanthi-o2j]

I agree. Love of money corrupts

[@stuartjohnson5686]

While Paul choose to work as a tent maker so as not to burden the churches in a time of persecution he also said the pastor should be able to feed himself and his family from the ministry.

[@john1-29_aka_LHT-LFA]

@@stuartjohnson5686you can feed urself and ur family without being a millionaire - far from it.

[@john1-29_aka_LHT-LFA]

@@wmgatlanta i am talking about being often times multi millionaires and you about being broke. You do not think there could be some middle ground? I never said anything about pastors have to be broke. So you are attacking a strawman.

[@Romans6_23]

The elders are responsible for calling out sin in front of the body of believers that they may FEAR GOD. (1 Timothy 5:20) Minimizing sin and keeping quiet only makes people think that sin is not that serious in the life of a Christian…..which makes us hypocrites in the eyes of the world.

[@lifeofbeautyk]

It also makes them look like hypocrites because they have no problem swiftly rebuking men like Ravi Zacharias and other fallen pastors. Just to clarify. I'm not referring to these men specifically. I was referring to the channels that call out charismatic and other fallen pastors so quickly but because it was in their own camp they haven't yet, or possibly never will.

[@lifeofbeautyk]

Just to note, Mr. Todd Friel did rebuke Steven on his podcast. He was very gracious and cautious because, like everyone, there is a lot of speculation and little facts.

[@Romans6_23]

@@lifeofbeautyk I was pointing this out because Trinity Bible elders are not doing this. Instead they are being very careful to not rebuke. Lawson started seeing the woman around the time he was made lead preacher of that church….so he’s earned that sharp rebuke.

[@ardadavidian6521]

@Romans6_23 💯🎯

[@carolynknudsen9753]

The woman isn't innocent, if that is what Tim Challies is worried about. Certainly the church body should know more. Also, I think they have been looking into it for awhile.

[@melindat419]

Gentleman and brothers in JESUS CHRIST, our response when sexual sin looms is to be as Joseph and FLEE! I am a woman but it applies to women to all saints!

[@ari_the_nomaad]

Great point!

[@wanderingdeer1114]

Amen! You are so right about this. FYI Joseph fled immediately.

[@cenoviaarroyo]

Thank you all for taking the time to share this video. I really appreciate it.

[@MikejMartin]

He didn’t fall he dived. For 5 YEARS!!!!! And it wasn’t him coming forward because he knew what he was doing was wrong. He came forward because the father of the women had given him an ultimatum either you tell your elders or I will. BIG DIFFERENCE

[@sammichaels3196]

If this is true, it is certainly telling.

[@bradw3153]

Yep! and we have a "mum is the word" video here... When if it wasnt one of their chosen favorite pastors , we'd see a video standing their face & name up like the antichrist confirmed. smh

[@MikejMartin]

@@sammichaels3196 also just learned something else. He was almost living a double life and this woman was a graduate student that he taught. He would pay for his and her travel to be with each other.

[@sammichaels3196]

@@MikejMartin I haven't heard a public statement from Steven Lawson. I just am super bummed. We've gotta be super transparent, and I haven't seen a lot of transparency. I do understand how hard it is to be truly transparent about our sins, but ugh.... I'd rather face the wrath of man than the Wrath of God. I haven't researched this much.

[@MikejMartin]

@@sammichaels3196 i’d say this it’s 50-50. It’s good that there are taking their time with collecting all the information on the situation but also the other 50% of it is the longer they take the more it looks bad for them.. But something that’s concrete is that this was going on for five years and that the father of the woman involved had approach Steve and gave him that ultimatum

[@RockyTop85]

As someone who will always be a huge Todd Friel fan, what we actually need is to hear the story and confession from Lawson himself…

[@geraldwilliamson8213]

We need no such thing. If you want that kind of openess, feel free to confess to us and all of the world here on KZbin, every sin in your life both past and present (public and secret sins).

[@David-828]

@@geraldwilliamson8213 I disagree what we have from Steve so far is - 1. A sermon preached with the upcoming revelation in mind , minimising his sin . 2. A confession that was forced by the father of the girl who threatened to expose him . 3. No public statement from him at all on hurt & damage caused . It’s not great is it ? Would be nice to see some public contrition given his high profile , we all sin and are rooting for Steve as a brother in Christ but this has not been handled well . It was FIVE YEARS !

[@kerrickchavarria8935]

@@geraldwilliamson8213 This is different in that a pastor is responsible to a whole congregation, many people around the world who have had witnessed his teaching and learned from him. He owes it to these people. Don't try and flip the script when the pastor is the one who is held to greater accountability for his actions

[@adrielrodriguez2158]

@@geraldwilliamson8213he lived a public life, sellling books and doing conferences, his teach had a huge impact and many people life so yes he has to come out publicly; just as Paul publicly called out Peter for his sin and he didn’t hold back in his rebuke of Peter in Galatians.

[@ellachristina7730]

We do not need to know all the details.

[@OittoGod]

I feel so sad for my brother in Christ! I have grieved greatly over this and continue to pray for him and his family.

[@melindat419]

Steve Lawson is a brother and I pray for him and his family. Social media is a form of accountability for each and every one of us!

[@kerryc5821]

A "brother?" He made millions not practicing what he preached, just like all these other conmen.

[@melindat419]

@@kerryc5821 HE is a brother until GOD proves otherwise! GOD is the judge. Not you or I.

[@mitchschultz8335]

He is not a brother in Christ if that’s what you mean. His secret sin for five years exposes a heart far from God. A “brother” does not live that way. Devastating.

[@victoriacherevko7665]

@@melindat419 1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

[@melindat419]

@victoriacherevko7665 yes you are right!

[@formerfundienowfree4235]

It happens because pastors think they know God and are following Jesus, when in reality, they worship the science of bible exposition and love their power, notoriety and positions of authority.

[@angiesmith1675]

Oh boy that is very crafty. Quite a sobering observation.

[@agape777]

Hits the nail on the head! 🔨

[@jamiep.7666]

A. W. Tozer talked about every human being imperfect - that's why we trust in Christ ALONE. Love people, But TRUST in Jesus.

[@Darin777JC]

Wow, stumbled onto this as it dropped into my feed and have been able to listen to bits and pieces and will listen again to hear it in its entirety I appreciate the honesty and humility of all those involved and found it relevant for me personally and for my marital relationship and struggles I am also having at work. Very relevant/helpful for me. Thank you!

[@melissaray6840]

Thankyou so much for this...i haven't wanted to watch or listen to anybody's opinion on social media.. people are just appearing from every where to have their say...Im very thankful for you guys and your approach ❤

[@therighteousbranch2599]

"Be killing sin, or sin will be killing you." - John Owen

[@mervjenkins4153]

"The Lack of Focus on the Holy Spirit and Walking in the Power of the Holy Spirit" (Todd Friel) Absolutely Correct! In my experience the Theologically Conservative, Reformed, Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, Biblically sound churches, have elevated 'knowledge of' theology above practical theology. There is too often an unhealthy 'seriousness' to/held in relation to the man that has the Degree, Gifting Microphone that isn't helpful. He's just a man, just like the other men in the church who work hard in what we now call secular jobs. This man is supposed to be the servant of all in his attitude, not the big shot, who is untouchable or unquestionable, in relation to his conduct or behaviour.

[@andrewmccombs7347]

Could it have anything to do with the church system in general? I'm still looking for a church that feels different than a restaurant. Hi there. Did you enjoy your sermon today? That'll be 5 to ten bucks, please. Thank God very much, sir. Have a nice dayyy....

[@celinamilian]

Because they love the intellect. They are just forgetting their station and go on a side quest.

[@andrewjohnson3882]

Ummmm, the Bible says study to show yourself approved. We need to study the Bible or we risk being deceived by a false doctrine that can absolutely derail your life. I respectfully disagree with your statement. I don't think there is an objective way to determine if someone theology is too elevated and unpractical. I think that's what you were trying to say. In my opinion, practical theology = repent, study, pray, seek holiness, seek a purity, seek the fear of God, examine yourself, love your fellow man, hate sin, and so on.

[@Dave-qf3wc]

"Elevated knowledge of theology?" That sounds horrible! Who would do such a thing? Having each individual pretending to hear from the Holy Spirit and each person hearing something different is the way to go. It's best to be your own God and make your own scripture and theology based on how you feel any given moment. And even if the scripture contradicts Jesus' scripture or the man's scripture sitting next to you on Sunday. They are still equally valid and true. Your personal scripture, given to you by the "Holy Spirit" can contradict Jesus and even supercede Jesus's Word. Good job! You're winning!!

[@kimschmidt2779]

Great analogy! 100% These Men tend to elevate themselves in a way that belittles other pastors of the faith who are the real deal ie Dr Erwin Lutzer Dr Chuck Swindoll Dr David Jeremiah who are the real deal teachers of the word and never wavering

[@user-sd1ej3oc5w]

Love this gathering of men! Praise God! The focus is always Christ saints!!

[@JAELIFE25]

They are clowns.

[@yamikanikatunga1749]

Wow... this is incredibly helpful during this time of mourning. Thank you.

[@jonathansimmons4253]

I think Todd hit it right on the head with several comments looking at the possible too far of a push by modern reformationist against the nuttiness of the charismatics. We want to disassociate so much with charismatics that we deny the power of the Holy Spirit and treat our salvation as a college lesson and not life practical application as well.

[@sammichaels3196]

The serpent is cunning. We tend to forget that. I'm guilty of forgetting that myself.

[@MoonMoon-fx1op]

This is so true

[@recoveredcalvinist]

@@jonathansimmons4253 Well said!

[@thecrew777]

Thank you for talking about this. As merely a church member, who also has been affected to a degree by the recent fall of a loved pastor on the social media scale, I'm very grateful for this thoughtful and prayerful discussion. Especially the scriptural quotes.

[@wandahfowler15]

Love Todd. He’s right on!

[@HenryHernandez-jj3kr]

To many bible studies are just teaching us to be smarted sinners. It should be teaching Us become more like Jesus.

[@lightningbauer]

I agree with so much here. I disagree that being devastated means they were usurping God's place in my life. I am deeply saddened because this was a man that I loved and benefited from. That doesn't mean I treated him like a god.

[@asureguidetolove8903]

This is very high quality counsel. Praise the Lord!

[@diasporan4159]

@Todd & Co : Just a month ago, nobody would doubt Steve was living/walking/preaching in The Spirit. Question is about DECEIVING/HYPOCRISY and how can we be sure we are not falling /getting duped by the next "Steve"?

[@Jesus_Christ_is_Lord_327]

Deceiving and being deceived. They do not care about the flock and want the wolf to still appear as a sheep.

[@ardadavidian6521]

EXACTLY!!! 💯🎯

[@longstreet2740]

I still glean from certain preachers/teacher but i refuse to 'Idolize' any leader

[@reneeb7400]

We have a responsibility to be discerning, listening carefully to the message and make sure it aligns with Scripture. When is doesn’t, and elements of compromise, false ideologies, wokeness creep in, these are all red flags.

[@diasporan4159]

@@reneeb7400 yes.... same "old Bible" remains reliable and trustworthy. I do not trust people, and that includes me.

[@silvannamk8339]

I wasn’t expecting to cry but the court scene of the Father then taking me home after forgiving my sins tore me up. ❤❤❤❤

[@nickysankey1210]

Thank you so much for these well balanced insights. They were invaluable to me. I used to be charismatic (not mainstream!) but have been reform for many years, yet I have struggled to obtain a good, healthy balance which has often resulted in my confusion and sadness, afraid to fall into any excesses. I feel it has often resulted in a lack of joy. I am so relieved and thankful to have been able to hear this podcast. In addition, it has also given me a new understanding of the doctrine of adoption which has brought renewed joy into my relationship with the Lord. Great idea about the Welcome Mat, too! Can't wait for the next gathering of these godly men!

[@juluklemm71]

Just now watching, avoided till now cuz I just couldn't deal with the sorrow. Fearful also that I would really really get angry, then fearful for all men in ministry who have been called to a very important standard so now I pray for protection for them. Please please hold fast and guard your heart and flesh. Lawson's work was world wide and so public - so many hurt. Appreciate what you guys are doing cuz somebody has to in order to help all those hurt, confused, disgusted, misguided, and yes even devastated. Thank you. 😭

[@CREATED4HISGLORY]

In the orthodox Jewish community there are many boundaries set up to guard against falling into these sins. For instance, orthodox men and women are separated at worship times and men and women are never in a room alone together. They don’t ever touch - not even to shake hands! The roles for men and women are clearly defined. We as Christians might think this is too much, but in their communities affairs are very rare because the consequences are too high. They understand what it does to everyone connected to them. I think as Christians we have allowed for sin to creep in because we don’t have any restrictive boundaries when it comes to our daily lives with the opposite sex. It is a rare occurrence that a Pastor or any man would fall into sin the first time. In this case, they were inching their way towards the precipice and no one stopped him not even himself. We all know who we are talking about and I may add most people were no where near his understanding of the word of God or the knowledge of Christ or the love of Christ. But, he just kept on..,for 5 years!!! We should all maybe reevaluate our behavior with the opposite sex.

[@lawrencekagan8688]

I am a preacher's son. We were always poor because my father was always honest and did not have worldly ambitions. He only wanted to serve God. These large churches are basically ego machines and corporations. Not surprised at all over Lawson's fall.

[@JoeyDoingThings]

Todd seems to be wrestling with some important issues, and I hope he continues to wrestle with them, and grows from this.

[@johnbeale4164]

Lawson's elders have not called out his sin as sin but have removed him from all ministry. He has been flogged without telling his church exactly why. They don't need all the details but guarding the situation at this level is doing damage to the church. As the story continues to leak out the elders credibility will continue to be damaged.

[@mariajmc6557]

Elders???? knew this but did nothing till it reached the press....

[@Aaron-SLC]

Agree

[@brotherskeeper3195]

I really appreciate you all for doing this. It's so vital we bring the truth out. I agree with you all that no one is infallible from a fall. Thank you so much. I pray for you all, God will protect our pastors, those that carry the word. I agree we shouldn't be surprised by our own weaknesses or failings.

[@Bidur1]

Todd appeared quite mature, sobered and gracious today. His take on the loss of Adoption today in the evangelical and reformed circles might be the number one cause of the fall of so many doctrinally sound leaders..

[@johnhynes7426]

Brothers, U HAVE TO listen to Todd's dissertation on the doctrine of Adoption ...46:15 - 56:50 IT IS AWESOME!!! Thank God for using these Men as the "straw" to unpack the gospel of His Son, Christ Jesus!!! 🙏🙏🙏

[@stevenyoung3760]

This is one of the most profitable videos I’ve ever ingested! All of this was for me! Both for my personal devotion and public proclamation! Thank you AND May God reconcile and restore Brother Lawson. 🙌🏾🙏🏾🙌🏾

[@Tinstared]

As far as the discipline I agree that the local body is responsible to discipline him. Let me add that what Lawson did was not something he did inside or to that local body. It was something he did outside of the local body. He had a worldwide platform, speaking, books, people financially supporting his ministry. In his case, in some sense, it was a worldwide body he was accountable to. I am glad we at least know what Phil Johnson put out. If not we wouldn't know that this sin went on for years while he was till actively ministering. That is huge.

[@thomasgann8754]

Great discussion panel. Hope there is more to come.

[@williezulu2045]

38:58 the "we are just straws to the Milkshake" analogy was very good.

[@LzCoda]

Todd's comment about the Holy Spirit is important. But I would say it is not just neglect of the Holy Spirit, I think it is our failure to understand the sweetness and depth of the Triune nature of God. Our Union in Christ. It's all about our Union in Christ.

[@bibluver98]

Extremely encouraged by this men; so thankful.

[@mchristr]

The American evangelical Church's almost universal disregard of the eldership plurality model is partly to blame. There's no foolproof inoculation against gross leadership sin but elevating our pastors to cult-like status puts them in a dangerous and vulnerable position.

[@maykhang4618]

Thank you for talking about letting people be able to talk to you and to critique you. It has made me think about my relationship with my husband and what I 've done and said to make him react in the way he does to my words and actions. Thank you for your instructions and your directions.

[@RexLawson4eva]

This is all very thoughtful and wise. I certainly hope we can expect to see this level of consideration and charity when the scandal involves someone from a different theological camp.

[@Jesus_Christ_is_Lord_327]

1:24:33 Bad advice. Stop with the “I think” responses. … Steve Lawson lived a deceptive life for most likely more than 5 years. The young lady’s family supported his ministry and she knew him prior to the affair. Most likely he was grooming her prior to the development of the “relationship.” With this level of deception, it would not be a surprise if more women come forward. However, having a “relationship” with a very young lady a third of your age is sick and perverted. As of this time, we know the last five years he has stood in the pulpit, wrote books, spoke at conferences - all while living a double life. If he was not your buddy, your advice would be different. I can’t believe I listened to this entire discussion of excuses to soften the issue. It seems everyone thinks Steve Lawson’s work is solid but that is because they all have stars in their eyes for this celebrity pastor. Even Satan quoted scripture.

[@gailkshaw]

“I think” = “most likely” Everything you wrote after “most likely” is negated by your own philosophy of “Stop with the ‘I think’ responses…”

[@Jesus_Christ_is_Lord_327]

@@gailkshaw Good point. Logically speaking, a person doesn’t wake up and randomly start a relationship with someone. A relationship takes time to develop before it gets to the point of a relationship. From the article by Protestia, the girl’s family supported Lawson’s ministry, therefore she was not a random romantic encounter. I should have referenced the article in that post. However, you are free to support and defend Steve Lawson.

[@gailkshaw]

@@Jesus_Christ_is_Lord_327 In NO way have I defended him. There’s just so much speculation and ‘what ifs’ swimming about social media….with so little foundation. The elders had to prematurely get a statement to members because of a social media post less than 24 hrs after learning just a small portion of the problem themselves. [a statement that appears vague to most people]. There are several steps in church discipline that should occur before bringing such serious matters before the church. The complexity of this matter is due to the multiplicity of his roles. The other ministries also had to be informed before much of what took place was known/divulged. Church discipline of this deep sin requires serious, slow investigation at each stage in HOPES of confession, true repentance & contrition, reconciliation, & restoration [to fellowship NOT to leadership position]. Because of social media, information to church members [& others] was necessitated before even the first biblical step of church discipline could be taken. ‘Podcast pundits’ were quick to assess judgement on the matter before the local church had any details and were making statements based solely on the church’s initial statement [09/19] coupled with their few moments of interaction with him. As such, this constituted little more than gossip on which lay people based their opinions & positions. There are some Biblical truths……adultery and the associated deception disqualify an elder/preacher/teacher from those positions. This isn’t the ‘unforgivable sin.’ Gut wrenching/egregious/dishonoring to our Lord, absolutely, but not unforgivable. Everyone should be praying for repentance which, should it occur, everyone will know because of the public nature of his position[s] and the now widely known nature of the sin. The very honor and character of our God & Savior Jesus Christ has been impugned. Deep contrition & repentance would give the church an opportunity to demonstrate the same grace our Lord gives to each of us.

[@geoffmaxwell7442]

As John the Baptist said "He (Jesus) must increase, and I (John) must decrease". The whole attitude of being a servant for Jesus, I believe is summed up in the biblical quote.

[@j.w.neidhardt3787]

I love John Crotts's phrase, "finish-line faith."

[@Contramundum429]

I was in the “head knowledge “ part of “Christianity” for many years. It has to be lived out and real struggle of bearing the cross has to take place. Otherwise, we will just be filled with pride- and then always fall. That’s why many young men are fleeing the Western Church and going to Orthodoxy. It’s a real struggle but saves your soul.

[@jeffreybrannen9465]

“Conference Culture” is a major problem that was not addressed. Self-licking ice cream cones. Here’s how it works: I write a blog that’s popular. I get invited to speak at small regional conferences and my name comes up with influential people. More people read my blog. I’m offered a book deal. To promote the book, I’m invited to speak about the book by the publisher at larger regional conferences and more important people know my name and more people read my blog. If my book sells well and my break-out sessions are well attended, then I may be offered a second book deal (usually a collection of my blog posts). Then I’ll speak at more conferences and maybe be a panelist at some of the smaller ones. At this point I should be getting big names endorsing my books and, if things go my way, I’ll eventually make it into a major publication or magazine. I’ll probably co-author a book and get invited to speak on the big stage. Then I’m coast-to-coast, interviewed, discussed, dissected, and backed. If possible, I’ll have my own conference and invite my own speakers, who incidentally happen to be the same people who invite me to speak at their conferences. Somewhere in here I have written a devotional and a third collection of blog posts. (BTW, it’s awfully hard to do serious research and writing when you’re constantly on the speaking circuit.) And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how a Christian celebrity is born. Throw in isolation from family and church accountability, adulation of fans, more money than your peers, the Skinner Box effect of hotels and p0rn, loneliness,… Yeah, my question is not, “Why do some pastors sin and publicly fall,” but “Why don’t MOST celebrity pastors fail?” Oh, wait…

[@VisionClearly]

This is excellent analysis and a better and more accurate assessment of what is going on.

[@sanctuary2019]

Focus on the Holy Spirit- is definitely missing! Good point Friel

[@Andy-m8b]

You can still give these fallen Pastors a job to maintain the Church's facilities.

[@Ratbazlily]

I feel,as a woman,so betrayed by pastor Steve Lawson. I trusted his words as being not only theologically sound but of doctrines he,himself lived by. I don't understand his indulgence of flesh whilst portraying himself as a spokesman for Jesus Christ. I understand we are all sinners;all corrupt and corruptible.Yet,we have to be able to rely on the honesty and transparency of our church leaders.They are entrusted to shepherd Jesus's people.

[@Romans6_23]

He wasn’t even a church member. A lot of men allowed this to happen by turning a blind eye to unbiblical behavior.

[@jenniferbtoo9344]

You can trust up to the moment you can’t. Who would have considered Steve Lawson untrustworthy? So many in the reformed crowd, in the past, have pounced with vigor upon other pastors in the same situation or upon differences of opinion. This most definitely includes Steve Lawson. I find it highly ironic that this panel is being so calm. I’m not calling for unkindness, but only calling for the difference in how this has been handled across the board to be addressed. This is grievous indeed.

[@michellegigous8911]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these hurtful events Prayers for all who have been affected. Let's us show grace, love, and forgiveness ❤️

[@sodkasjunkie]

And the sermon he preached the previous weekend about a pastor who was involved in sexual sin is beyond mind blowing. Don’t know the better definition of a hypocrite than that!!

[@nunezj06]

Looking forward to seeing more of these. Great collaboration. Hoping i could catch a few live.

[@jeffmoyer1997]

The sin that disqualifies a pastor should never be hidden and should be brought to light, to be dealt with according to what the Word says, with the purpose of a possible restoration, both for the pastor, as well as for his wife and children (if they have them), and for the church. Peter says humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. When they forget this they fall

[@bambiwest1391]

A mistake in my book is an unintentional error. Doing something intentionally wrong is NOT a mistake. Fame, ego and power can be so very corrupting. Hopefully the families can forgive and marriages be restored.

[@mariajmc6557]

wonder if this would be your comment if his wife had this?????

[@bambiwest1391]

@@mariajmc6557 Your comment doesn’t make sense. But to answer the root of your question, yes, I hope for the families forgiveness…whether the marriage is restored or not. If you have ever been physically or emotionally hurt by someone, forgiveness helps the victim to heal and as a Christian I know what the Lord asks of us.

[@judijudd2129]

​@@mariajmc6557 Sin is sin... male or female.

[@elainemeyer-hp6ye]

I am praying for Dr Steve Lawson.All of us sin.

[@macg4745]

I am not blindsided and losing trust because of a Pastors failure, however how the church is handling the discipline of the pastor different then they would a member of the church is where I lose trust. I lose trust in the leadership that does not respond biblically because it is a leader....I have even heard NDAs are becoming common in these megachurches. That where the lack of trust comes into play. When I see these doctrinal churches claim the church is separate from the world and the legal system and yet seems to act like the world when dealing with church discipline of leaders.

[@Alejandro-z5c]

Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[@JesusFirst652]

Thank you for this Discussion, looking forward to all of us Healing from this Fall!

[@brotherskeeper3195]

I've asked God why and how this fall is able to happen to anyone when we are so rooted in His word. I went for two weeks reflecting this to God, all the time praying for my brothers' fall and loss, journey with our amazing God.

[@MEAToftheWORDsermons4theMATURE]

With the volume of pastors falling in such a short period of time, I was wondering if the topic of God judging his people would come up.

[@zdenekcanada5408]

And this is just about "superstar" pastors .. how about all levels of church .. God cleansing his church for reason

[@DeborahLow-n1t]

Absolutely loved this, thank you it really blessed my husband and I Debbie and Kim

[@carolynbohannon4602]

So easy to say let us walk in the spirit. We need to look at this beloved pastor and ask God to search us and not think we male or female can not fall. Pride comes before a fall. Pride is the creeping sin that haunts each of us. Have mercy on me oh God that pride will not have its way.😢😢

[@computech50audiobooks78]

Most pastors don’t fall, be encouraged by that.

[@lt7378]

Good point. Many are taking this pastor’s fall as a way of dismissing Christianity and condemning Calvinism. One should not judge Christian truth by the pastors’ sins. Look at the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@TyroneFuller-my6xd]

Or at least they don’t get caught.

[@melaniexoxo]

@@TyroneFuller-my6xd Sadly I think it’s more like this. We need to always be discerning and on guard

[@woodhavenpk]

Good point Todd Friel re the Holy Spirit.

[@saraz9017]

Interesting points indeed. Todd Friel makes interesting points.

[@leahjacob849]

We pray for fallen Steve Lawson. 30 years ago, i was close to an elder, just a friend. He's older by 15 years, and i respected him. Little did i know that he had issues with his marriage. i was so naive. Satan is real. That elder is willing to leave his family for me. But i left. i think ptr Lawson and the lady were naive. Satan is clever. its just subtle. That elder was drawn to me. But, i stop being a church worker. i feel so guilty for he is a married man. i left the country and God has healed me. i left a good career for i love Jesus. i cannot understand why Steve has not stop preaching. The guilt is so bad. Praying for fallen christians.

[@MsQuickCook]

Right pastor John keep going till reach the finish line

[@shilohsanders5475]

Thank you men.

[@a.j.manville7042]

Pastor Friels comments on adoption are heart warming. Pastor A. N. Martin preached similarly on the ordo salutis. Explaining the process in illustrations of rooms. Justification happens in the courtroom, conversion happens in the operating room, sanctification happens in the classroom, but adoption happens in the livingroom where our Holy Father takes us into his arms and welcomes us into His family....

[@1Whipperin]

Claiming to be a Pastor, as many do today, goes against Scripture, even if they use 1 Timothy 3 to justify it. Let’s examine this biblically. First, 1 Timothy 3 gives qualifications for overseers (sometimes translated as "bishops" or "elders"), but nowhere does it condone the modern model of pastors having exclusive control over teaching, ministry, and spiritual guidance. The early church’s structure was not centered around one leader. Instead, it was led by a plurality of elders (Titus 1:5; Acts 14:23), and the role of "overseer" was a shared responsibility. Jesus explicitly warned against anyone claiming authority over others in His name: - "But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers" (Matthew 23:8). - "The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted" (Matthew 23:11-12). Pastors exalt themselves, giving themselves titles, authority, and power over others, directly disobeying Christ’s commands. Nowhere in the Bible does it encourage the establishment of a professional class of Pastors who act as spiritual gatekeepers. The term "pastor" appears only once in the New Testament (Ephesians 4:11), and even there, it is in the context of multiple gifts given to equip the saints for ministry, not a hierarchical office. Paul, who wrote 1 Timothy 3, clearly stated elsewhere that ministry belongs to all believers, not just a select group of leaders. He wrote: - "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26). - "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). The royal priesthood belongs to all believers, not just a professional clergy class. The modern pastorate steals this truth, placing power in the hands of a few and hindering the spiritual growth of many. 1 Timothy 3 is not an endorsement of the current Pastor role that dominates today’s churches. Instead, it outlines the character required of those who serve the body, not control it. Many who claim to be Pastors today resemble the Pharisees Jesus rebuked, who "tie up heavy burdens" (Matthew 23:4) for others to carry, while they themselves live comfortably from the congregation’s offerings. Paul also warned against the kind of people we see in many pulpits today: - "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Timothy 4:3). The solution is to return to the priesthood of all believers, where every Christian is empowered to minister, teach, and serve in humility. Christ, not a self-appointed pastor, is the head of the church (Colossians 1:18).

[@michaelmelter2271]

The talk on adoption is so beautiful and powerful!

[@starsaboveasmr]

Robert Morris was talked about for weeks yet they can't even mention Steve Lawson by name? A little soft on this issue. It was grooming/predatory behavior for 5 years!! I praise Phil Johnson for at least calling out this evil behavior.

[@peth7216]

Psalm 118:8 it is better to trust God than to trust man. These tell me that I should trust God in my life and live by the Spirit. Though it saddened me when something happened to anyone who is preaching God's word in an intelligible word and fall short of God's glory, I still trust God in their life.

[@OittoGod]

My question is why didn't the men who were close to him see this 5 years is a long time to not see something.

[@gracenmercy579]

people can hide sin very well the only person it was not hidden from it’s the Lord

[@jwehrli6]

​@@gracenmercy579it would be very easy for him to pull off this. All he would have to do is him have her come to the conferences and he just tells everyone that she is his granddaughter and nobody would question her going to his hotel room and out to eat

[@mitchschultz8335]

Great question

[@Christian-jx3nx]

Pastors that fall need to be fired and get a new one. They are no longer trustworthy. Maybe they will come to repentance and humility as a congregant. You must hold them to higher standards and hold them accountable because it’s Gods Word. Loving them means chastisement and offering them help, counsel and forgiveness.

[@dylankandoll3756]

Amen!

[@ashleykillingsworth3706]

Yeah, that’s why they get disqualified from Ministry over certain sins.

[@longstreet2740]

Many fallen pastors have skill sets valuable to private Industry. I know of one who got a lucrative position with World Bank

[@MarkSutphin]

Pastor Brad is not our way to God, it is MY task to reach God directly!!! Pastor Brad makes this abundantly clear of his servanthood. Thank YOU!

[@wilmalister8916]

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. If we dont guard ourselves any one of us can fall into sin, even sexual sin, sadly with Steve that was a worldwide known Pastor and Preacher it happened to him. His sin is open for the whole world to see where the rest of us can so to speak hide it and no one needs to know, though some can still be in ministries and carry on with it sadly…. I loved what Paul Washer said once, that you shouldn’t “worship” the pastor or the preacher, but worship Christ as He alone is worthy and wont fail where others will fail. So so true. My heart breaks for Steve and his family, but yet again we know that we are all just 1 decision away from sin. We are praying for him and his family and for complete restoration. He is still a child of God regardless… When you look at David, and he was called a man after God’s own heart, but yet still see what sin he committed, and that was wilful and even still his Psalms etc are in the Bible…. My thought is just, why does Steve have to be “wipe out” “his name blotted out/completely removed” concerning, sermons, books etc etc etc as if he never existed, and as if he was never a faithful servant of Christ prior to this sin? Isn’t that going a bit tooooo far? 1 Cor 10:12 “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. John 8:7 “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” God bless 🙏🏻

[@claudiaa2854]

👌👌👌

[@luisvelazquez2750]

Really helpful, thank you!

[@johnwebber4358]

I would recommend a study of the life,walk and ministry of Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

[@matthewperry2767]

Todd, honest question-were you aware thar Steve Lawson wasn’t even a member of the Trinity church in Dallas?

[@christophercunningham5434]

Everyone is shocked the ministries are being silent. Obviously he was executive staff, there are contracts, non disclosure agreements, and much more. It’s despicable but it shines a light on why we really don’t need these para-church ministries, we do however need the local church with everyone in submission. Kinda like how the Bible has laid out, but these guys make millions…..

[@dkcsavage]

I know there is a balance but there is a point where ministries present these men to us as authorities. They are highlighted as the speakers at every conference. In this way they are held out to us as being the men we should receive as the ones with the knowledge and wisdom. This often places them above ones own local Elder's.

[@melaniexoxo]

I seek out pastor/teachers of smaller churches online. There are many of them that are right on theologically that are pastoring very small congregations. If looking for churches to support financially, I contribute to these.

[@sirjoseph68]

Usually I find the reform guys mostly unlistenable because of the pride that tends to ooze from them. But Todd's theory regarding a possible distancing from the power of the Holy Spirit due to the excesses of some was such a moment of vulnerability and humility and spot on in many ways. The initial reaction to his comment from the rest of the panel is very telling, sad and hilarious.

[@melaniexoxo]

Todd is usually so. I think he “shines” in this conversation. He has the humility to shift his views as he grows in his faith.

[@kensmith8152]

I remember fifteen years ago someone gave me cds of sermons by Ravi Zacharias and it was what I needed to hear to come back to the Lord! But as we know where that went! How was it that he was able to develop such a massive and powerful ministry and yet no one saw what was going on behind the scenes?!!! Why didn’t one honest Christian call him out when he was alive?!!!!!

[@paulstevenson789]

Indeed! Everything down here is in a state of entropy and we, Saved Sinners, need to constantly be empowered by the outside Power Source Found in the Living Word of GOD, HIS Preserved Word the KJV Bible.

[@josemolina8230]

I’m disappointed many pastors and ministries were much more vocal and harsher on the Alistair Begg scandal compared to the Lawson one in the reformed camp

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

Did it cross your mind that it might have to do with the fact that when Alistair Begg was graciously and lovingly approached by many of his peers, and asked to recant what he said and to repent of the sinful counsel, he said "no I don't have to repent", and then he quadrupled down and preached an hour long sermon castigating those gracious men of God, calling them Pharisees?

[@josemolina8230]

@@SaltAndGracePoetry that’s not my point, I disagree with the statements and advice that Alistair gave. Yet I see how much harsher ministries he partnered with were on calling him out by name And giving reasons as to why he’s wrong. yet on the Lawson situation I’ve heard nothing from Ligonier, TMS, GCC etc A lot of us in the reformed camp are hurting and I’m praying for his repentance

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

@@josemolina8230 Yes all Christians should be hurting over this. Praying for him to repent and be restored to Jesus. I'm actually worried for all those who are gloating over him.

[@longstreet2740]

Maybe Reformed theology needs to be reexamined

[@MoonMoon-fx1op]

​@@longstreet2740 why? Lol

[@Laurs867]

The thing that I can’t wrap my head around most is how someone can have such solid preaching, even preaching against the sins he himself committed, while living that lifestyle the whole time? I just don’t understand how that’s possible.

[@hc9763-r4h]

We need to pray for the ministers especially those who are prominent and influential, they may seldom have enough time for refreshing deep and intimate relationships with our Lord due to unusually demanding requirements from their ministries. There should also have more accountability systems established for these ministries leaders.

[@joc4384]

How Alistair Begg, Ravi Zacharias, and others were handled by this channel vs Steve Lawson, saddens me. They can't even name the latter.

[@tonyslater8641]

They spent a week talking about the situation (by name) on radio/streaming. I think they intended this webinar to address it but be more general.

[@Ironica82]

The Friday after the news broke, he talked a little about it on his usual Q&A show. Then, the following Monday, he spent an hour talking about him. How much do you really need?

[@joc4384]

I only have this channel. I just feel others have been singled out.

[@joc4384]

@@tonyslater8641 just do a search, alistair begg wretched, or ravi zacharias wretched. You will see the thumbnail instantly, and see what I mean.

[@pam2viph]

@@Ironica82 do you have links to those? thanks

[@nickerdoodlez]

Thanks you guys, this was well done, biblically sound advice from all of you! I’m SO glad the social media issue was addressed too. Tim is absolutely right! Gossip is a horrible sin and technology these days has enabled it to the fullest extent. It’s heartbreaking enough when a pastor/leader falls, but it’s even more so when there’s a ripple effect of Christians sinning by gossiping about it in the aftermath. 😢

[@rafaelsison9843]

1 Cor 10:5 Sin is right at your door waiting for an opportunity (when guard down) to enter. No one plans to fail. It starts in small steps and if and when you fail to identify it's value to your walk, it will slowly creep into your heart and before you know it you are in the middle of a forest fire. !. Always get in the Word so the Word gets into and guard you. 2. A Christian fails or falls when he or she gets into the habit of failing to commun (daily devotion) with God.