X4 Foundations: Revisiting the Odysseus E

Hello everybody,
In this one, I revisit the Odysseus E.
In my opinion, is a great beginner destroyer, good for missions, with its capability to hold M ships as well as S ships, so small mining, deploying satelites, mines, Lts, escort mining ships, all are doable.
Also, you can begin to stop xenons invasions, take out Ks and the ocasional I, while not be very concerned about escorts, thanks to good shields.
The variant I use in the clip combine argon and paranid tech, and it can be build like this by the faction that come to be if you side with the BUC in the paranid plot. As some of you know, this is kinda my thing with mixing tech, you are free to mix what you want. :)
About me:
I like to share my X4 Foundations experiences, some because they are really amazing, some because they are really anoying.
Like the video? Why not buy me a coffee?
www.buymeacoffee.com/Ragnos28

[@markhackett2302]

Fleet ops with carriers or really anything is missing a lot still. Some form of fleet formation designer, because the options are "sufficient" for battle, but fleets have at least two formations: under attack, attacking, and moving. We only get, sort of, one. A fleet design that you assigned ships to a position in a fleet means there is a use of M class ships as perimeter ships, and scouts for early detection (I think that the radar range mod needs to be +100% range, at +20% range it is not worth putting on scouts at all, but the problem possibly, that the mod can be put on your carrier, meaning you STILL don't have a fleet use for scouts, however if "scout class" ships got 5x the benefit of radar range mods, or radar range was ONLY available on scout class ships...). However you could have a fleet order of picket M class ships and in battle, they are hanging back around the High Value Target. Carrying any M class still lacks utility, but baby steps.

[@ragnos28]

I wish for a feature that allow me to select, lets say 10 destroyers, draw a line in front os a K or a station, and then have the ships moving in that line, kinda like the troops are selected on TW games (if you are familiar with them,), not just "move to" orders like we have atm.

[@markhackett2302]

@@ragnos28 Aye, several ways of doing stuff, and different ways of doing it too. If a carrier could deploy LTs further away (ahead), then it could use that 250 deployables. Or more than 0. And, being shot 2-4km ahead (for example), those beams could stop a travel mode K at 12km range from the carrier. Or if you could set a line for deploying LTs and a frigate or any other ship could fly and deploy along that line as per spec? Heck, I want to see a way to deploy 10 mines in a fairly large sphere, because deploying one at a time works for missions, but doesn't work in making a prohibited zone. Then again, if mines were actually useful rather than a speed bump, we'd also need mineclearing equipment (you know, a Shockwave sort of thing, doesn't do a lot of damage, but has a large AoE). It just means mines are used for doing missions and ignoring utterly everywhere else. It is a "problem" because it doesn't get used, not an ACTUAL problem.

[@markhackett2302]

@@ragnos28 The "formation" options are, I think, SUPPOSED to do it, and doubly so for "Coodinated attack", though the latter may be more against stations because the target won't then move. The dastards. So Line Abreast is going to keep the destroyers in a wing lined abreast. That you find it only really works for destroyers multi-selected not winged together, is probably a weakness of wing setup making you not use it. So you are intended to set "Line Abreast" and then select that fleet leader destroyer and "Attack target", then they all move, keeping distance, and stopping at distance. That a K can go 4kps is why sometimes you see the K get "too close", because the AI can only react to things that happened every 5 seconds (or whatever), and the K was supposed to be 20km further away...

[@dafinch9752]

Love the Odysseus E. I've got a fleet of 12 that I use for station bashing and gate protection. Never been close to losing one and they've taken out several I + K fleets.

[@ragnos28]

Still don't trust them enough to select 10 of them, order them to atack an approaching K and expect no casualties. My next clip will show an engagement of my paranid fleet, that will show what I mean. Maybe there are better at gate keeping, as in atacking from a stationary position, but if movement is involved, either by the target or them, they will find ways to derp up, like all destroyers.

[@user-xj6nv3mv1e]

Одиссей е и бегемот агрессор мои любимые эсминцы! Спасибо за видео, очень круто!)

[@ragnos28]

Thank you. Yeah, Ody and Behemoth are decent destroyers, and best of all, you have acces to them in the base game, no dlc required.

[@domicplus2255]

thx

[@markhackett2302]

See, the Paranid E class capital ships are a lot more for player use. That means also mostly you would ignore the Zeus-E and use the Oddy-E because it isn't like you need a lot of ships, a wingleader with 5 "defend" the wingleader default orders means you can enter in just fine: you take the wingleader S ship and launch and you can take on a furball of flies. I would suggest for that hairdryer look you put the large turret at the bottom near the engines to "Attack all Enemies" (since you can't put it on "Defend Engines") and either use plasma when you are running away (so anyone targeting your engines is flying roughly straight, and therefore the speed and rotation of plasma large turrets is irrelevant compared to how much damage you do, or you pick something faster but less damaging in an L turret because it is going to target in the rear lower quadrant, so turn speed and projectile speed are important for that purpose. Note that the deeper hairdryer shape puts the dual large lower down and so can more easily reach anyone daring to hit engines. "Attack my target" can be more useful for that purpose: select anyone trying to take your engines out. The Zeus-E you may want to set up with two wings: burst ray equipped ships to take out large ship external mounts, and a fly swatting team to take out smaller ships, with any M class ships just corvettes winged up to defend the Zeus once any capital threats are gone or irrelevant. A wing of Nemesis can take out a Xenon capital, they just can't survive a hit from gravitons, but are too big to avoid being hit. Pity there isn't a default order for that role (or a role for that use). A Zeus-E is there only to be a bigger shielded place to store those ships. It's a pity there is no "Fly to, then Clear Orders" so you can order a carrier around but not have to keep deleting that "fly to" order to stop it moving away when YOU take the helm.

[@ragnos28]

Can't find a role for the Zeus E. In part because they are huge XL. Tho the concept of light carrier works for the Guppy, but that because they are L. In the case of the boron fleet, I've said...ok, I will not have a wing of 10 destroyers like my usual composition, but 5 destroyers and 5 light carriers (to host the fighters I don't want to see cuz I can't stand them, the slow mo Baracuda). And that works, because they are all L. Well, in the case of the Zeus E, I can't see myself draging 5 XL ships, it looks cumbersome. 😐

[@markhackett2302]

@@ragnos28 Sure, but you personally limit yourself to what an NPC race provides. The Zeus-E does carry M ships, the Guppy cannot. Doesn't even have a dock port for M ships. The Nemesis is a super heavy fighter. It outputs a LOT of firepower, same as a P, except moreso, but, like a P, really is in danger from L turrets on a capital ship, even Plasmas of all types, so it is only for flies, capitals flatten them with firepower and all M fighters can be easily swarmed, two ends that make the M class at BEST a niche for fleet operations (but lacking defaults or orders that work for its niche sans player interference or "micromanging"). A patrol of M class ships in a small wing, totally doable, because except with Capital class ships, a small wing of Ms can clean up with minimal damage. It is getting close to working with "Patrol" orders now, so Ms have a use. For carriers, however, the only use in a fleet for M class docks is for traders giving it more missile bits. And even that is limited. If carriers (and resupply ships) got, say, 2000 missiles and replenished them from internal stores, and rearmed any ships requiring missiles from its store of 2000 if possible. Missile components take up far far too much space, my headcannon would be that the missiles would be unpacked on carriers/resupply ships so it can carry a heck of a lot more than traders, it is just limited to a limited list of items. Making 2000 missiles you predefine as stores, it unpacks to make those missiles from stores, meaning it can carry enough to rearm the complement fully, several times. I would even put "Resupply ships" at 5000 missiles. Why Egosoft might not is if you fit all missile turrets on those ships, they are now heavily OP, if expensive to run. So if they make a "secondary store" of missiles (and drones and satellites, et al) for them, then fair enough. After all, with it as it is, you could fit all missile turrets anyway, getting 450 missiles, and then you have it have standard resupply or order it to supply itself anyway. So they are still OP, just run out of puff a bit earlier. Back to Paranids: I don't think you would mass Zeus-Es. If it is too big for one complement of a single Zeus-E to handle, you won't send any. Send more Perseus fighters instead. But where the Zeus-E works is in putting out sufficiently size fires that happen in several places. A single Behemoth carries twice as many ships, but it can only handle one. Instead, get two Zeus-E and it handles two at a time, or moves to a problem twice as fast. That may denote a test you could do. Spend as much as you would on a Zeus Non-E and its complement, but on a massed wing of whatever paranid fighters you would have, and sit and watch in an M class ship way out of the way (e.g. a frigate, because of its shielding). So if Paranid SOP was "Send fighters" instead, how much better would they go than if you spend the money on a Behemoth and Paranid fighters (ignore that you mix races, a "standard carrier as you want to use it" would be about a Behemoth, maybe a little faster, but not much, but more expensive to do it). A Zeus-E carrier is just a way to carry a lot of ships safely nearly as quickly. As to the fighter set up: Burst laser fleet ordered "Disable turrets" then docked. Pulse laser/beam laser/blast mortar wing set to "Attack fighters". Anyone can win with a bomber fleet, but a disabled capital means you get 5 more powerful ships with the Zeus. 25 ships that are better is pretty close to the 40 ships you normally use. For the Nemesis, Plasma main guns and beam turrets set to "Attack fighters", because it really doesn't matter the base rate is low, most of the damage you get on fighters is stopping their shield regen. Beams give you a lot more reliable hit rate. That sort of setup on a single Zeus-E and no destroyers is possibly optimal for Paranids using only Es. The only place you would mass Es are for Oddy-E, and they contain enough fighters to be worth deploying against other flies each. Because of the cutnpaste nature of docks the other race destroyers spend almost all their time trying to pump out 40 fighters, and those 40 will cost more than a destroyer by so much its cost is irrelevant. So we generally don't bother with any, making their docks completely irrelevant, might as well dock 0. IMO L freighters could carry 5 fighters for "self defence" with the count of them as a balance factor (possibly comparing to how many fighter drones it can carry too: so a zero internal dock for fighters but 50 drones makes sense for a freighter with a single S class dock). Destroyers could carry up to 10 S class fighters, again as a defence fleet but often at "Attack fighters" and deployed near battle. As before, the count is fairly used for balance. Phoenix for example might carry 15-20 fighters, because their SOP is stationary defense, so plenty of time to deploy a lot of fighters). Then Carriers carry 40-ish fighters and 10 M class IF THE M CLASS BEHAVED WELL IN FLEETS. Swapping more fighters for less corvettes, etc. but also using platforms to balance things. With resupply ships having maybe 10 or 5 fighters as self defence, but mainly using a large hold to store a lot of stuff to fix other ships. Heck, split resupply could pack more M class dragons "because split be cray cray not defensive" but less S class (because all you need is enough to service incoming small ships). The Oddy, even the Oddy-E is a very light carrier. Enough for it to be a wonderful player ship, because you are unlikely to need more than its complement of your own ships, but also enough to make them genuinely want to fill that dock capacity. A 5 wing defensive group of fighters to help against flies buzzing round? Totes useful. We can limit other destroyers to merely 5 fighters, set up for the same role, and IMO this is what they intended us to do: it doesn't matter it has "space" in its XML file, for 40 fighters, we just use 5 of them. As it is, we limit ourselves to never using them. Except to cheese the old Oddy to a supercarrier, able to do Carrier duty AND destroyer duty because we never bothered with any actual carrier. All we miss out on are free repairs and an opportunity to rearm, barely, because it has some, but insufficient, cargo space to do that.

[@markhackett2302]

@@ragnos28 Sort version: if the M class were more relevant in fleet ops than currently, there would be enough difference between the L size Guppy and XL sized Zeus-E. The real difference is that the orders/roles make a mockery of M class fleet actions, so you are spending more for the same, effectively.

[@ragnos28]

@@markhackett2302 Carriers deploying and retrieving M ships takes a huge amount of time, that I why I never use that particular ability. Did you see the autopilot trying to land an M? Imagine that multiplied by 4 or 8 or more. Because of this, I only use M ships in my fleets, if they remain "outside", as in escorting aux ships (no auto landing). Also back to paranid and the Zeus E. I say that making it as, if not bigger that the regular Zeus was a big mistake. If they wanted to make it a light carrier, should have gone for a thinner version, maybe leave just 1-2 M landing pads in a line with 8+8 S landing pads on the side...if it is "light" make it smaller (or less wide).🧐 As for any combination of destroyers or non carrier-L ships and fighters, not feasible imo, because no auto repair and rearm. Anyway, my next clip will feature an extensive engagement of my paranid fleet, were you will see all the tactics I use in their case, as in what I found out to work best for me.🤓

[@markhackett2302]

@@ragnos28 Yeah, M ships don't dock well. S ships aren't good docking on other ships, but Ms are bigger, nearly as fast, but have a much lower acceleration. So the problem may be "Docking is bad at other ships" rather than specifically M class are bad. So if docking is improved, all get improved. However M traders don't move anywhere near as fast, so for the cost of staying still longer, they still work for carriers. An Oddy-E having space inside to dock 2Ms mean it is merely a "spot attack order" at best, or trader docking solely. Docking 4S internally means a quick exit, two cycles, and done. So as self defence, 4 is absolutely fine, and most destroyers are fine with it, but even 10S takes 5 cycles to move. Except the Colossus. With 4 docks, it can have 12 internal spaces and do all of them in 3 cycles. Given it is half the speed of the Oddy, that is something you can totally do. 40, though, not so much. Running a pure destroyer fleet with 4-10 S class fighters for self defence against fighters only (a bane of destroyers In System) is entirely workable and removes any desire for a carrier or M class ships in the fleet. Against a station, a destroyer fleet could be used, but it is their Leeroy tendencies that make it shaky, fix that and destroyers are capable against stations. A fleet may not warrant destroyers attached at all, for example. So if Ms were able to be set as a vanguard, to protect the carrier as it emits its fighters (and in the case of the non-ZeusE several carriers in that fleet), you could invade with destroyers taking out stations and carriers as a way to make fighters move in a group.

[@kannatizuru8938]

Odysseus : UGLY 💀 Odysseus E : Amazing Behemoth/Colossus : E type on the way Phoenix/Condor : can someone fix my damn FACE? (blocking turrets sight🤨)

[@markhackett2302]

Use the Teladi capitals differently. The Teladi have a stronger 720 degree coverage (remember, a full sphere is 720, not 360, that's a full circle), so use them that way. The Rattlesnake is forward facing boom but are weak to being surrounded. It may be worth not using the main guns of the Phoenix at all, turn around and kite the opposing forces back to more guns and use the turrets to fire BACKWARD at persuing ships. The Teladi gunship is fast, like real fast, so if the opposing forces have a fleet containing capitals, use the gunships to keep them from persuing your big ships, or savage their rears as they run forward, because remember the escorts will be far ahead and moving quickly to the engines of the Teladi capitals (engines that are to the forward end of the ship, so are less vulnerable to being targeted than other capital ship engines. Once the flies are gone, if you have time turn in place, otherwise hang a large 180, and use the main guns of the Phoenix to take out those capitals safely. Don't use them all the same way. The Phoenix isn't a Behemoth. Don't use it like one. Also consider an EMP/disruptor/whatever to stop an enemy fleet capital ship at range (EMPs are long long LONG range, consider a single scout with a hold full of EMPs and a single launcher for it. For Argon/Antigone, use the Elite not the more capable Disco, as a spot-EMPer this is the only combat fleet use for the Elite I can see. Elites as police craft, no problem, make em cheaply and turn them out, scan craft aren't combat craft, the Elite will just call in a few Novas to do the actual fighting, all it has to do is scan and not get hit).

[@kannatizuru8938]

​@@markhackett2302 Thanks for reply 😄 Phoenix is more focus on Anti-S/M usage for me, I only use them to support Carrier or tanking damage, don't care losses because SCA WILL pay for you 😆 ("Sir, would you like some bloody marine boarding service?") And Condor...these badboys can deal with anything, yes it's a carrier not destroyer, but that's the point, just spam missile/rocket turrets on it, carrier can make ammo by itself, now you have a gaint missile platform with INSANE ammo loadout(and don't care too much about degree coverage if using missile not rocket), even better if you docking some M on it(for anti-air support), let the rocket fly!😎 (really good to deal with Xenon's gaint ships, Phoenix can focus on anti-air or meat shields duty) Yes, EMP are very useful to keep enemy ship away, I use them a lot when playing split main(like some Chimera with 4 torpedos and 1 disruptor, help Rattlesnake much easier to taken out K/I), or doing some....💯% free marine boarding service😉("hello Asgard, may I take some of your time----")

[@planexshifter]

I always make the large turrets plasma and have them fire at my target

[@ragnos28]

So do I, but I leave at least one L turret on beam on my personal destroyers, to aggro hostile fighters that don't want to "play" with me, as the M turrets range is really low. On subordonate destroyers, I don't care about that, and leave all L on plasma.

[@mikealpha2611]

I made an Odysseus as my personal ship. The M class dock holds a Katana and a Jain for personal use and a extra flack battery. Not sure what small craft to hold.

[@ragnos28]

Might as well go for terran fighters to keep in line with the M ships you have. On my personal Odysseus I have an Nemesis to chase things, a Prometheus for extra turrets and 4 Ares, on my paranid stuff, all must be paranid.

[@mikealpha2611]

@@ragnos28 Fair. Ultimately i want to get there but I'm pretty new so far its a salvage fleet.