FFXIV - My Thoughts on Omega Ultimate

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[@Kingnothing7x]

Just spellblade thundaga and use rapid strike a few times and gg

[@Senbatorii]

How much can i pay Yojimbo to Zanmatou the encounter for me?

[@FelNaga]

I've always said that Omega and everything surrounding it was 4th wall breaking, or something similar. Because this ultimate to me at least actually tied into Omega's story as a whole including and especially the Omega quests that came with 6.2? 6.3? I can't remember. Because those quests were all about Omega learning what it is to well have feelings, to keep moving on, to have that emotion of everyone else. Then in TOP Omega discovered Dynamis, and Omega finally understood Alpha's emotions and motivations. And then just like that, they were off again traveling the interdimensional rift together.

[@AlalaCrisp]

I've heard the longest you can go in TOP, is like 19:30 or something crazy. I think when we cleared DSR week 8, we were the 4th slowest group in the world in terms of kill time, 19:06 but that's simply because we held DPS in every single phase, so realistically, DSR is quite shorter if you ignore p1

[@conroconro]

After DSR and now this fight, I no longer want three ultimates. I do want the 2nd ultimate of an expansion to be at the END before the next expansion though. I've gone through doing Tier 1 of Savage with a small break, into MONTHS of DSR with two weeks of a break before Tier 2 Savage, and a month break before Omega. It's too much.

[@RudolvonStroheim]

So don't do it.

[@Hailtothegun]

Hard disagree, which is funny because your exact reasoning for wanting the second ultimate at the end of an expansion is the exact reason why it shouldn't be. An ultimate can truly burn people out. Do you really want to risk that right before the next expansion? You NEED to give people some time to recover after an ultimate.

[@ich3730]

@@RudolvonStroheim "You have any problem with the game? Just dont play the game 4head" very big brain take, very smort

[@inb4loss]

@@Hailtothegun Yeah I agree with this. The last tier is kinda the retirement tier anyway because it takes so long for next xpac to come out that you get to do it with echo if you're especially lazy. I JUST got into ultimates with my static, so while everyone was doing DSR, my static was doing uwu ucob and tea, we finished up tea just two weeks before top and now we're on phase 4 of top and loving it as a group. I think we may even stay together for all three tiers of the raid, but I could see if everyone wanted a break after we finish TOP.

[@NeurosisOsmosis]

@@ich3730 The content is optional, you don't have to do it, some people want to

[@TheOptimistDelusion]

2 ultimates is perfect. Just make the release dates x.1 and x.5. We may be feeling burnt out now but once the pre-7.0 content drought comes, we'll all wish we had more stuff to do

[@Narrendor]

I got goosebumps just watching that end sequence, holy moly. Love this thoughts style video; well done, and congrats again! Y'all worked HARD

[@TheRealLink]

Well explained, Happy, and congrats again on your clear! I might step in here for fun but I don't see myself at a level of clearing this soon if at all yet. But to hear you so passionately able to explain just why it's so good leaves me feeling great. It's up to Yoshi and the very hard core scene to see how it goes from here.

[@dewdbrowatch1446]

I think double ultimates will be healthy overall sure these feel exhausting but it will always trump that feeling when we found out back in shadowbringers that tea was the only ultimate for the expansion maybe when the inevitable shinryu ultimate drops i think we would be all rested and ready to give it a go again

[@hammerify7431]

Double ultimate is fine, but doing DSR into Abyssos (overtuned) into TOP is terrible. We've said it many times before the ideal solution would be X.1 & X.5 ultimates, because then your MC groups can slowly prog that .1 ultimate, take a break for savage, come back to that .1 ultimate with bonus pots and .3 gear if need be. Then go into x.5 and finish the expansion off since that's ALWAYS the longest content drought anyway.

[@YUXKE]

Yeah that ideal only works if no unforeseen circumstances interrupt the development pipeline. .1 and .5 was the intention for SHB until DRU couldn’t finish development in time due to world events going on, pushing it into EW. So a year and a half or so distance between them can leave a wide window for something to hopefully not interfere with their content pipeline plus prep for new expansion. I think it’s kind of the developers’ call in what and when works for their pipeline, moreso than what is comfortable for the players digesting the ultimates.

[@sleepysera]

@@YUXKE You can't make a good product if you put the extremely unlikely chance of a worldwide disaster at the forefront of all your planning, sorry. The pandemic was an extremely unusual, once in a lifetime thing, of fucking course did it throw development into disarray. So was every other job on the planet...

[@mana-azir6808]

how about havin an ultimate on x.1 and x.5 patches only? Would that help in mitigating that stress and burnt feel i wonder

[@garishhellscream3432]

I'm kinda glad Kefka/Exdeath aren't in this. Hopefully one day we get a "Dissidea" style ultimate with Cloud of Darkness, Golbez and any other enemy from other Final Fantasies.

[@skullofrebellion6653]

That would be so sick

[@yep8058]

I think Golbez is already reserved for Four Fiends Ultimate and Cloud of Darkness for Oracle of Darkness Ultimate

[@naoremonth]

@@yep8058 If Eden Ultimate is similar style to Omega, it's possible that Cloud of Darkness doesn't show up at all there. Like all of the enemies from Omega that didn't get used, the various summoned primals from Eden aren't really strongly tied to the 'main' parts of Eden - that is, Eden itself and the various Oracle of Darkness forms. I'll admit I have no clue how Four Fiends will end up. They're a part of their own story arc that stands on its own, but they're also not going to be the main story Ultimate for EW. With the pattern currently being "one Story and one Raid ultimate per expansion", it's possible that they get passed over.

[@Neurometry]

I'm only in-tune with how the semi hardcore and beyond groups are doing, but for the midcore and casual gamers doing this ultimate, how far along are your groups? Any major roadblocks? How many hours a week do you guys do?

[@DootyBooty]

Limitless synergy, 6 hours a week, major roadblock on Pantokrator. Half of every single raid day is wasted on Pantokrator and then we sometimes get a little bit of prog. It's pretty much the same in Party Finder, sadly.

[@gshimon]

I think 2 ultimates for expac right still still can work BUT, I would suggest the second one to the x.51 patch instead of the x. 31 patch that is right now, it would be better to send off the expac and outs more time between each umtimate so that the burn out feeling from the 2 fights is not as intense as it is right now if they keep the difficulty to this level or they plan to keep moving it up

[@Zindril]

Good video. However, I think that 2 ultimates per expansion is good, they should just be paced differently. The first ultimate should be in x.1, while the second one in x.5. Having x.3 as a huge break time will give everyone much needed rest before another ultimate. Additionally, the time between x.5 and next expansion is always longer, meaning ppl will be able to recover from that as well by the time the next expansion's ultimate comes out. I do feel very exhausted though this expansion. DSR, into Abyssos, into this has been some of the best, but also roughest raiding times I've ever been in FF XIV. I am looking forward to completing TOP and then wrap up the expansion with tartaros, before taking a massive break till the next expansion!

[@FatalFatalisFtFts]

I think having 2 ultimates in an expansion is more than enough. And then we have 3 patches with the looong wait for next expansion in there to practice these before the next one comes out.

[@socram3254]

I'm still progging DSR and I'm on eyes and it's weird how it feels an eternity to even get there when it's actually only 6 minutes into the fight. Imo as a humble midcore player TEA's first two phases has the best balance of being difficult but not at all too frustrating, unfortunately it gets too easy after tho

[@anthony26812]

Idk I think wormhole in tea is pretty hard to prog

[@laxxboy20]

9:28 hmm wonder if that's why I saw some teams struggle so hard on launch day.

[@luizphellipe5831]

i think the double ultimate per expansion is good but the savage tier needs to be loked at we don't need 2 ultimates and also have a boring and harder just for being hard savage tier, i much rather we have fun but challenging raid tier like asphodelos and promise to having this catathospry wich was abysos

[@FrossTea]

Alright since you've asked to share some thoughts on difficulty and burnout and ultimate I feel like this is as good a place as any to string together my thoughts as someone who is considered a "hardcore raider" in every sense other than time committed. "Are Ultimates on the difficulty scale of DSR / TOP healthy for the game?" It's no surprise that this expansions content, as you said, are a step up in difficulty from Ultimates in the past. Is this healthy for the game? I'm just going to go out on the limb and say no, it's not. Of course the most hardcore of the hardcore that commit 10-15+ days want to say "yeah, give us your best shot SE, make it HARD, UCOB/UWU/TEA have become too easy", but the replayability of these new Ultimates compared to the former is just so much lower, and I'm sure less and less players are engaging with this kind of content. It is a HUGE commitment for the average raider that would normally complete an ultimate. Nobody wants really wants to commit to joining another group after progging this content once. EVERYONE that completes these raids gets an extreme amount of stress and exhaustion and trauma, and while yes, the sense of accomplishment is intense and relieving and a feeling you just can't get in many other games... It has destroyed so many players will to play this game, and do more content like this in the future. So no, I don't think that Ultimates on this particular difficulty level are (and this is important) sustainable. Overall thoughts are; personally, like every ultimate, I will do this content, I'll complete this content, I'm in the minority. But I care about player health A LOT. It's becoming more and more concerning to see my friends stop playing, to see people DREADING and FORCING themselves to spend hours and hours at the wall of doing this content because they feel like they have to because "they just always have". I want Ultimate to continue, I want Ultimate to be difficult, but I think what you ask of the players in back-to-back content should be considered more heavily in the future.

[@lynndylan4674]

This. I like hard content but I can only commit 3 hours at max everyday and even then i don't wanna prog everyday. this ultimate difficulty is making me rethink if i really want to clear this fight or not. I might stay put for a while until we get some optimized strats or just overall better gear in general. tried progging a few weeks when TOP released in it kinda broke me.

[@DeadEye935]

Maybe its just cuz I'm relatively new to raiding, but when I saw people clear P4S, and when I cleared it myself, the reaction was "that was a cool fight :)" But then DSR, P8S, TOP, the reaction seems to be more "thank god its finally over" when people reach the end. As good as these fights are, I dunno how sustainable it is to have raids that just kinda make people not wanna play the game much after they finally clear. Personally, I'm kinda hoping things ease up a bit.

[@shiro12okami69]

Being a mixed Grp of players, both Hard to Midcore. I personally don’t think we need 3 ultimates at all, as a normal living being with normal time to spent on content, u won’t be able to prog, 3 ultimates while also having savage etc. I am Personally interested in early proging ultimates and such. I would also have the time for it however my grp wouldn’t have the time to actually spent what is needed. So seeing it all from an normal point of view for the player base in general, 2 Ultimates are far enough. Especially when each Ultimate gets more and more unfriendly for newcomers. As mentioned I would rly love to prog for world 1st and such once, I don’t know tho how I would perform I’m determined usually and I think not rly bad, and usually Mechanic safe. But also somewhat afraid of it, and I can’t rly leave my grp behind that would be just wrong tbf.

[@blannk]

man getting this after dsr... whew

[@10kvolts]

I did think 2 ultimates in X.1 and X.3 was a bit strange. I'd think the 2nd would be better served in X.5 just to give a bit more of a gap between the previous one and usually there's gonna be a bit more time between the last patch and the new expansion. But having said that, Ultimates really don't age the same way as other content and so maybe timing isn't as big a deal. Hardcore raiders might be getting burned out but I think that's a pretty small number of people who are chasing world first or at least the first wave of clears on new content.

[@UnholyGB]

So hey, I’m taking it upon myself to throw myself in the deep end here. I cleared UwU about 8 times as of now, but have not cleared any other ultimate, I am a very quick learner and and one for the challenge. Do you think it’s possible for me to get into a static and possibly clear this fight? I am determined and will to do whatever it takes, currently I am a AST with full diadochos melded gear, anything you recommend I change with that? My only worry is not being able to be let into a static because I’ve only cleared UwU and pretty little savage. Which makes me feel like my only other option is to make a static myself, which seems insanely daunting to raid lead in my position. What should I do?

[@balladsfromthefloor]

for TOP, the ideal gear to wear for progging it is BiS from the Abyssos raid tier (ilvl 630 - 635). Wearing crafted gear would not be ideal; the stats they have aren't ideal and they would get synced down as a result of the level requirement for the fight. Also, although I have not cleared UWU myself, i have heard the level of difficulty of TOP compared to UWU is vastly different. I am still proggin TOP (on P6), and at the time I started, I had not cleared any ultimate. But since, I have cleared TEA and am currently progging DSR as well. I personally realized after clearing TEA that i was more naive in what was really needed to do well at that fight and I am glad I cleared TEA first. I can now understand why many statics prefer their players have some ultimate and savage experience. I don't know what server you are on, but if your PF is active, i would encourage you to just hop into a fresh prog and see for yourself with no expectation of being in a static or having to be committed to a schedule. Feel out the fight. With practice, you can determine if you are up to the task. :)

[@dividedbyzero4]

some hardcore raiders always cried that the game is too easy, so they keep making the hardest content harder. But now I have suspicion that the same people who said that are also the ones who use things like cactbot or splatoon.

[@ich3730]

What are you talking about? Ultimates have been consistently praised by hardcore players. What people mean when they say "the game is too easy" is the casual content, anything below savage is braindead. I can literally afk in all of my roulettes, no matter what role i queue with. THATS what people mean.

[@dividedbyzero4]

@@ich3730 I'm talking about people who talked shit about TEA after clearing it few patches after it released with guides and said it was too easy because PA is a 7 minute victory lap phase. And also those who consistently belittle UWU saying things like how it's just glorified savage (after clearing with guides and later AM ofc) even during late stormblood. They exist and they're pretty damn annoying. Also didnt you see the most recent example of people saying everything on ex and floor 1-3 savage tier or even 2nd phase of p4s and p8s to be too easy? Even P3S that was a big meme in PF got some people saying "it's easy PF is just braindead". They may not be the actual majority, but they're usually pretty vocal about it.

[@galath9242]

Lol, those losers are just buncha teens, so their opinion is automatically irrelevant

[@MrMiQT]

On the difficulty discussion in these comments - I believe Asphedelos was the chefs kiss of difficult. Not too hard not too easy and balanced between the 4 fights. While Abyssos 5-7 is not hard, it feels like all of the tier’s terror is backloaded into 8 and I think most people agree that isn’t fun. Since P4S I do feel that theyre making content more difficult in general.

[@trustytrest]

They've been messy with difficulty ever since Eden's Promise was so easy and plain. You can tell the devs are trying to understand what "Savage difficulty" should be anymore. Asphodelos had one of the hardest 3rd fights in years, so much that it overshadowed P4S in terms of difficulty, but it also had the weakest 1st fight. Abyssos had a way better 1st fight but its 2nd and 3rd fights struggled to even be balanced, with P7's only claim to fame being sleepo marker scandals and the harvest spam at the end backloading the fight. P8S is still the best Savage they've had since E8S, but the devs need to balance the rest of the tier better.

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

​@@trustytrest Promise's last floor was definitely not easy, it was actually pretty close to Shiva in terms of difficulty IMO, especially the door boss. The third floor of Promise was pretty easy on farm, but it also took a long time for the first clear to be recorded of it because it was a third floor with a tight DPS check relative to other fights. It took 4h5m to clear e11, compared to 3h32m to clear p3.

[@Lyu-Phy]

Yeah Asphodelos balance was pretty good, but the 3rd fight was super chaotic. Not only did that fight showed that emphasis on spread mechanics is not pf friendly but that fight legit felt like a final boss of a tier, that fight was a rough tier prog check. It's still my only savage PTSD to this day being stuck for weeks on end, and I grinded the hell out of P8S. P8S I initially also found way too insane, but after proging for almost 2 weeks I kinda dig it now, its full balls to the walls. Maybe a bit "too" much, but that fight is truly well made. But about last tier bosses.. Hesperos was also a nasty mfer, holy cow.

[@GrafBuckel]

Two ultimates per expansion are perfectly fine. The only issue I am having is, these last two ultimates are SO long and hard, that I will not be able to clear them before their respective savage tiers release... forcing me to pick them up back later, after savage is done. This is bothering me a lot. I am one of those "midcore" raiders, I would say, raiding three days a week, for about 3-4 hours. Already knowing that this is not going to be enough to beat TOP before the next savage tier releases? It's kind of demotivating. Since my savage and ultimate static are different ones, there is not even an option to push savage back. After devs told us, TOP would not be as hard as DSR, we even decided to NOT return to DSR because of it, only to be confronted with a fight that is arguably even harder. It's discouraging. Also TOP has balancing issues. DPS checks are too tight again, like in P8S, favouring specific party compositions and jobs - specially since there is a phase where players get so many buffs, they cannot even burst-dps correctly because their job buffs just cannot activate anymore - again, favouring specific low-buff job compositions. This should never ever even be a factor for building parties. While mechanically the fight is awesome and fun - DPS-check-wise it is terrible.

[@rimouks]

LMAO the thordan p2 music

[@sephirock9659]

While i feel your point about being burnt is valid, i think you're only seeing the 3-ultimate rythm from a hardcore point of view. Sure, progging 3 ultimates from that caliber while doing the criterion dungeon(s?) and savage tiers sounds giga exhausting IF you chose to do all that on hardcore. I think it would be great if they made 3 ultimates, but some players would probably have to review their ambitions lower, not necessarily the dev team.

[@ToothpickSamurai]

I think the answer is probably 2 ultimate's per expansion, if it is exhausting as you say it is (I don't actually do Savage and Ultimates... yet). The question is as to WHEN the ultimate's get released, and a lot of people suggest you get one for the 3rd turn of a savage instead of the second but you don't really end up changing anything doing that, cause you're going to end up with the new expansion almost immediately after that which itself has a savage being released shortly after, which would then be followed by an ultimate, which would then be followed by a savage before you get your break. But with the current release schedule you are simply moving your break time rather than spreading out your ultimate fights, so the question you really want to ask is "do you want a break before a new expansion? or do you want one in the middle of the expansion patch content?" Either way if you maintain two ultimate's per expansion you will still end up with an exhausting schedule and you're really just figuring out where the rest period lies.

[@sleepysera]

Not really. Regular patches are on a fixed schedule of about 3 (now 4) months, but the expansion isn't, it drops after a much longer break. So the final patch of an expac is always way longer than the others, meaning if an ultimate releases at the start of it, you can finish it regularly and still have several months until the new expac+first savage tier come out. Meaning you'll have two breaks - one during x.3 and one during the later half of x.5 since the .5 patch lasts so long.

[@ToothpickSamurai]

@@sleepysera I see, if that is the case then yes ideally you would probably release it during the x.5 patch then.

[@yallom_nayr5602]

Looking at this i have no clue how people do these encounters lol

[@Strider_Shinryu]

From an outside perspective (not at all a raider), it really feels like they've backed themselves into a bit of a corner with the difficulty. So many people complain (very loudly) about there just not being enough real hardcore content in the game and then when they get it, they complain that it's too hard to takes too much time. Then if the devs were to release a fight notably easier than DSR and TOP, people will complain that the fight was so easy or short or whatever compared to DSR and TOP. It's really a lose/lose situation now that they've set the bar where they have. particularly that they've done so two fights in a row.

[@Breaker242]

thats just nonsense. every hardcore raider Ive seen both online and in game agreed that DSR should be the maximum of difficulty. Literally nobody i know of would have complained if this ultimate were easier. Youre painting the developers as these sympathetic victims who cant catch a break because of some imaginary toxic elitists when in reality they just didnt test it properly and its obvious

[@Breaker242]

when people complain about a lack of difficulty in the game theyre generally talking about stuff like extreme-trial level or slightly higher but still below savage and ultimate. Stuff like more 48s or Bozja duels. The game right now is in kind of a awkward spot where too much Content is either designed to be completely braindead or overly demanding because of the excuse that "if you havent done ultimate then you cant complain about no challenging content" which is a copout. Its completely reasonable for people to want the satisfying experience of stimulating gameplay that doesnt require 100+ hour prog

[@kyugreywolf6801]

@@Breaker242 That's true. Since clearing the current savage tier, I've had nothing to do really other than force myself to farm the new EX lol It's been weeks since I've been on :C

[@Jay-mx5ky]

People have absolutely complained about how easy a lot of content in this game is (from job design to p5s-p7s, etc) and a lot of it imo is hindsight. Developers can never be a good judge of difficulty, doesn't matter if you're solely a playtester. If you have a hand in the design of the content, you'll be better equipped to handle that content. Only when a dev releases content put into the wild will actual players who have nothing to do with how the game is developed will be able to judge the difficulty accurately. Ofc there's a relative scale, which is why these savage and ultimate denominations exist, but Yoshi P being like "we didn't try to design it to be harder than DSR" confirms to me that they had no idea how the community would receive this fight. Same reason why P8S P1 was overtuned.

[@taco_sensei]

The line is very thin. I remember everyone kept *whining* how there weren't enough content for hardcore players in ShB. And we only skipped the other ultimate (you gotta remember there was delibrum reginae savage whereas now we have Criterion savage). But I guess many would argue now that one DSR quality ultimate per expansion is the way forward?

[@Zsaver3]

In addition to this, looking more at Stormblood as compared to Shadowbringers, alliance raids were actually serious difficulty in Stormblood, to the point that they actually had to nerf Orbonne so that T.G. was not such a gigantic wall to completion. I think it’s less that Shadowbringers had just “less” difficulty content and more than a combination of world events made it have significantly less difficulty-based content than either Stormblood or Endwalker.

[@Calvinooi]

Does Exdeath or Kefka not appear in this?

[@Dedric_Price]

No only omega

[@optimismx1048]

Yea endwalker seems to be on a sadistic streak outside of P1S - P4S which felt normal and fun for a traditional Savage tier but ever since then yea things have been pretty crazy. I've been taking a long break since first tier just doing EX and other more casual content because I just speed ran doing the previous ultimates which imo hit the sweet spot of being fun, difficult (outside of uwu) and a decent length. But, they are still ultimate fights and like most I'm assuming it really isn't the fight necessarily but the team logistics of it all; people becoming burnt out, quitting and so on. I think as long as the fights err on the side of being difficult but very fun instead of exhausting and challening; 2 ultimates an expansion is definitely feasible. At the end of the day, the game still has to be fun to play and not become just a chore and exhausting. Personally I still think 19 minutes is quite long even if it's as you say; it dosen't feel that way.

[@jag764]

This Savage tier has been easy too, too easy imho. The Ultimates have been brutal tho. But I really hope the last Savage tier is harder than the previous, because it feels more like Extreme levels to me.

[@ashleybricco4107]

Always have to have someone calling everything easy. Is it some ego thing? No, this savage tier was not too easy and it should not be harder next tier.

[@kyugreywolf6801]

@@ashleybricco4107 It was too easy. It was RIDICULOUSLY easy. Other than P8, which is the problem. The bar of entry to P8 was literally non-existent. Look at last tier with P3. I sincerely hope next tier is harder, because the amount of time that P8 took with PF was just absurd. If you want a picture, with PF, P5 to 7 took me 2 weeks (yes, all three in two weeks). Know how long P8 took? Almost 2 freakin' MONTHS. Now tell it wasn't too easy.

[@ChepsGaming]

@@kyugreywolf6801 I agree with that. I did p5-p7 through pf week one, p8 took a little shy of 2 months, and I had to relent and get into a static because I just did not have the time to pug the fight anymore, it took so long. If the fight difficulty could be normalized to where 1 is easy, 2 is harder, 3 is really difficult, and 4 just as hard or even really bananas, that would make it easier for pf warriors. That way you know (or as close to know as possible as pf allows) that the people in the fourth fight are at least somewhat mechanically competent. This tier was HELL to pf because of what Kyu outlines.

[@kyugreywolf6801]

@@ChepsGaming It really was. Unfortunately a static isn't really feasible for me since I'm from England and play on NA, so I had to PF all the way. I seriously wanted to join one though. Definitely agree with them getting successfully more difficult, that's what it should be like. The first tier I think was really good, though even after P3, you could never escape those Pinax memes lol

[@keinchi]

I'm going to be honest, it's something I've been echoing all over the community, this Ultimate should have been at 6.51. The fact of the matter is Ultimate after Ultimate is too much, and putting the second Ultimate there does a few things: -One, it gives players that didn't finish the first Ultimate time to complete it and in a way it makes it "still in content" going into 6.3 and even 6.4. -Second, it gives enough time for people to take breaks until the last raid tier. -Third, if the last Ultimate is in 6.51, it gives the community a Capstone event, like this is where all of your raid expansion experience leads up too, and then jumping into the following x.11 patch it's a full year+, more than enough time to have cleared the last Ultimate and taken another break and hop into the next with a new prepped mentality.

[@lynndylan4674]

that was my genuine question. if we're not getting 3 ultimates this expac (no i don't want 3 ultimates i'm fine with even one) why didn't they hold it off til 6.51. my friend was very upset that he didn't get to rest after the raid tier and dsr. i think the placement of these two is a bit too close. maybe it's just me. I know that there's a very vocal minority who wants 3 ultimates every expac cuz there's not "enough" hard content.

[@Paien75]

As someone who doesn’t do these raids, I have such an appreciation for the skill level of the players. I’m genuinely happy for people when they clear.

[@gmb3682]

Not so much "skill" as it is adjusting and memorizing. With there being such a strict way to resolve mechanics, everything is somewhat set in stone. The only difference is the personal responsibility, which I guess you can attribute to skill in that case.

[@RingoFreakingStarr]

I think that having 2 ultimates per expansion is a very good amount but they really should spread them out more. Having them in back-to-back savage tiers is exhausting. I think a good balance would be having one in the first turns, then the third. I know a lot of people that got so burnt out by DSR then this current savage tier that they noped the F out of even attempting TOP because it was just too much in such a short amount of time for them. To me, Ultimates need to be approachable (in the sense of ease of stress getting into the fight) but that is 100% not the case with having DSR and TOP so close to each other.

[@crunkulouss]

bro why is your intro music so quiet i turned my volume up for the intro then you blasted my eardrums

[@alaineninmah7040]

TOP < AOE SImulator 2023..

[@DonaldTurner]

really enjoyed this video, brother. your content is top notch. I felt an almost vicarious pride for your team's accomplishments! thank you!

[@RichardRollington]

I think 2 Ultimates per expansion, and the patches they release them in, are perfectly fine, especially for midcore statics. There's plenty of time between now and the 7.0 to clear both of them, and on top of that, you can do small gear optimizations later in the expansion for a little more DPS cushion. Yes, you won't get caught up in the TOP hype if you didn't complete DSR and elect to clear it first before TOP while it's still fresh in your mind, but the content will still be there later. My personal gripe is... 19 minutes? That feels like an excessive time sink for getting to later phases, and it's about a good 8 pulls a night for most of us if you're progging the them. I'm fine with tight DPS and movement checks, don't get me wrong, but if there's so much going on in the fight already, why not cut out some of the "lighter" or less strenuous downtime (like phase 3 transition and phase 4) and spread out some of that required healing/mit for the party throughout the rest of the fight?

[@xierotron]

Still dont get why they dont do an ultimate on the x.5 patch you know the Ultimate patch of an expansion

[@Mrhappy1227]

They tried to do this in Shadowbringers and had to delay it due to the pandemic. Better to aim for .3 and at worst delay to .5

[@AceBadguy]

I love hot dogs.

[@michaelbugliosi735]

IMO, savages should be released in x.11 and x.45 (2 months after the 2nd savage tier drops so that people can get their gear). That'll increase the gap between ults to about 12 and 14 months, respectively, while giving the playerbase 8+ months to clear the second ult before the next expansion.

[@trustytrest]

how tf are they gonna release savages after 2nd savage tier drops

[@mypurpletie]

X.45 is still a bit too soon imo, since it would only be about 2 months after a new savage tier has been released. Like many others have said, a .11 and .51 release date seem to be the perfect balance. That's roughly 16 months between the 2 per expansion given their current schedule, and the following Ultimate in 7.11 will be about a year from then. Considering the content drought that occurs between the .5 patch and the next expansion, it just makes the most sense to me.

[@kalibertotal9735]

I am no ultimate raider, though I hope to get there one day. My first experience with Savage was E9 to E11, starting maybe 2 months before EDW, then Panda on launch. I casually prog with my static ~5h a week. (This is just so we're clear about where I'm coming from for my thoughts on the Ultimate rhythm). On one hand, I don't want them to go beneath 2/expac. I don't want SE to... "lose ground," I guess, when it comes to content they can use for Ultimates, assuming that they continue to use raid series and MSQ. (This would mean that they currently have STB MSQ, Eden, and SHB MSQ available to them... well, EDW MSQ too I guess?) Very arbitrary, I know, but as a non-raider I've always been excited to see what they do with the "storyline" of each Ultimate, how they spice things up. I want to see what they do for the next ones, and not in three, four, five expacs! But not so quickly that everyone gets burnt out, either. On the other hand, I also see where y'all are coming from when it comes to being burnt out. Tackling every Savage, every Ultimate, Deep Dungeons, etc? That's a Lot Of Shit. They could potentially mitigate this by having ultimates release on X.1 and X.5-ish, but that'd maybe require a lot of work in advance (since ultimates seem to be a Workload), and I don't know if they'll be doing that. Hell, IDK how many resources they'll be putting towards Ultimates now, considering Recent Events™. Otherwise, I like the video! It's nice to get some quick perspective on the fight as a whole and what you think of it :D

[@hardware72]

One ultimate of this level, one easier each expac, more shorter, fun stuff like the criterion dungeons. I know after doing all four previous ultimates and now progging this one, I'd like more separation especially when this one has it's fair share of issues with snapshots and poorly designed sections like the p3 auto attack issue.

[@shakeweller]

Only thing I wish was more deterministic mechanics and less priority "logics" and systems. This might not be that bad for statics but for PF these things are next to impossible to do.

[@P_OmSa]

I think two Ultimates per expansion are good. I just think, for some reason, in Endwalker they've had more trouble balancing the difficulty than in the previous two expansions... it's just a question of finding that sweet spot where there's enough frustration to make completion fulfilling, but not so much that it burns people out. Since content's been "too difficult" three times in a row now (DRS, P8, Omega) I think they'll prefer to err on the side of caution and make P12 easier than they normally would.

[@Mako_SOLDIER]

I think they're just on a sadistic roll now and won't stop :(

[@GanonAutumn777]

@@Mako_SOLDIER thats what our raiding scene has been asking for Cuz some raiders kept bitching fights are too easy,and when they got what they want they say its too hard Which is funny in the context of what happened during the world race

[@Fndlord]

@@GanonAutumn777 Yep, that and the third party tool fiasco, I mean, if the trajectory of content continues to rise in sadism, then, don't be surprised when the uptick of TPT goes up. happened with wow, can also happen here. Next expac, they need to tread carefully. but hey, the hardcore raiders got what they wanted huh?

[@maniac7770]

This. This exactly is what my group ran into. The best word for it is, as Happy put it, "exhausting".

[@4ctivepain606]

i think it's too hard if they keep giving us the hardest fights ever conceived in an mmo patch after patch at least they should make the dps checks more lenient so we can actually beat it before the next one

[@milojevicdavid9956]

"hardest fights ever conceived in an mmo" Wildstar had harder normal raids :)

[@EnvySenpai]

@@milojevicdavid9956 maybe that's why wildstar died lol

[@milojevicdavid9956]

@@EnvySenpai that wasn't my point. OP wrote: if they keep giving us the hardest fights ever conceived in an mmo. And that just wasn't true

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@milojevicdavid9956 bit of an exaggeration don’t you think? I mean sure some of the higher end ones might have been harder but really? Normal?

[@ThatRedHusky]

@@milojevicdavid9956 I mean that's literally not true at all. They had incredibly stupid ENTRY requirements to the raids, but the raids themselves were nothing really special? I remember myself one of the hardest fights was literally just not breaking the floor beneath other players a la: E9S, and using an acquired jump to get over a laser that swept the room. Barrier to entry isn't difficulty, it's vague attempts to get the player to play needlessly longer.

[@sirrivian]

Good video but if your issue is burnout just do other content and come back to omega/ultimates when you're actually ready to do it, it'll still be around in a year+

[@Seeker265729]

1 ultimate per expansion seems like it would make the most sense thematically in the sense that it should represent the most difficult content at that level cap and gear cap that expansion offers. Then spend dev resource on some other interesting thing (like the criterion savage deep dungeons) that could have its own different flavor of challenge.

[@gordonjackson4040]

As someone who burned out on DSR to the point of hiatus on all of P5S-P8S and attempting TOP, the amount of time commitment needed to complete encounters on this level is borderline madness. Personally 19 minutes still seems too long, even if you suggest it doesn’t feel as lengthy. Midcore players, buckle up for another 4+ months of progression. 🎉 At least this ultimate is on a superb level visually.

[@nomnomnom298]

As much as I love ultimates I really wish they gave us more time between the two most difficult ultimates released. I did not expect another one to drop this soon so i took a break after dsr and clearing the tier. Those two burnt me out. And then i see this ultimate being released so now trying to catch up on bis to start this ultimate. The bis process has been a pain. That in itself is turning me away from this ultimate.

[@MAegcuru]

Then you have the issue of what happened with DSR where it was delayed to be the 6.1 ultimate instead of the 5.5 ultimate. If it's too close to the end of an expansion, it runs the risk of being delayed should something happen during the development which now with the patch cycles being longer means potentially, a 2 and a half year timegap between Ultimates. So its the tough choice of releasing two pieces of high end content close together or aiming for two with one possibly getting delayed.

[@nomnomnom298]

@@MAegcuruI do see your point but they themselves said that they put too much effort into DSR. But this was done pretty quickly. Easily they could have held off till 6.4 no problem. I see no reason they could not have held off at least a little until savage gear restrictions were unlocked.

[@VGPorage]

@@MAegcuru I don't know the inns and outs of how development works but I can imagine that the end of the expansion is all hands on deck to make sure everything is ready before the next expansion launch.

[@qwertyuiop3656]

Best Ultimate!!!

[@sleepysera]

I wouldn't throw DSR and TOP into the same category difficulty-wise at all. DSR was just right, yes it was notably more challenging than previous ultimates, but it was a fun fight. People weren't burnt out after it because they ENJOYED themselves. TOP just sucks as a fight in general. It's random bs after random bs after random finnicky bs. It's difficult in the WRONG way, that's the issue, not the level of difficulty itself, because then people would also hate and be sick of it after DSR and that wasn't the case. So I think the difficulty is fine and can stay on that level, but the way it is generated needs to change. TOP isn't it. As for Savage, I found this tier's difficulty pretty alright for a second tier, but comparing it to the first one honestly makes it seem a bit too easy. Phoinix in particular set a high bar, so I kinda hope the third tier will be a minor step up again. Similarly to my ultimate opinion, I don't think the difficulty itsself is a problem, but I do think the devs should probably adjust some aspects - namely, no more backloading of mechanics in fights. Savage, while by no means casual content, is still something a big part of the playerbase dabbles in. That means people with busy real lives that can't take days off work for prog, so "time-wasting" feels especially shitty to them. When you need to play for 7-8 min every pull just to even get to any challenging mechanic, you can do that many less pulls per raid night. Prog drags on unnecessarily and ofc that ends up draining people.

[@Edwin582]

They should do 2 ultimates. One in the X.1 patch and then have the SECOND ultimate REQUIRE you to get your relic done (have it be BIS for it) at the end of an expansion so we have some content to hold us over between expansions. I do not understand why they do not do this. It would give more meaning to complete our relic weapon grinds beyond just aesthetic since all available content is cleared already.

[@dale7326]

because contents get outdated after new expansion launch, gearing isnt really the point of getting ppl in but rather pulling ppl away since time consuming and challenges are not the focus of the game. Updating is really an issue with 14 in general since you have console platform and system scaling for any new contents that can cause isolated the others.

[@Yokai_Yuri]

Well it was expected. Omega is supposed to be the end of all. I really like how Yoshi P respected Omega as this entity that put the god like final fantasy final bosses to shame. I really wish I could tackle this content.

[@ich3730]

What? Omega is literally just a sidestory character. Most of the major players in the MSQ dont know omega exists or simply dont care :D

[@theangriestpigeon4403]

It should just be 1 ultimate per expansion, namely since most people don't clear the ultimate until the next tier afterwards unlocks for higher ilvl stuff. We are getting so much more content in terms of high end raiding coming than I think people realize. Due to the introduction of Variant dungeons, we will essentially be getting another set of extremes and savages. Sure, first one died due to having awful rewards, but later ones may have good rewards. Which will prompt high end raiders to do them, no? And if they continue that trend, I can see us getting 3 variant dungeons an expansion to match each tier. Do we really NEED this much high end content? Most people are still plugging away at savage or DSR. I just cleared P5S, my first ever savage, today. Started late because I have an anxiety disorder and I'm a tank so you see the issue here, right? It is exhausting learning a fight, then relearning it from another perspective, tank to melee, and cycling through healers, and need I mention Party Finder? Even casually, this is exhausting and makes me hesitant to get back into the game at times. Now granted, now that I've cleared, I want to go right into P6S....But I still have those feelings, and I feel I'm not the only one. I can't imagine how burnt out someone is from P8S and the madness that is that fight. Shriek with snakes and a second phase that goes on forever. Really puts in perspective why they put in island sanctuary. I hated it at first, but inbetween prog, and in between random PF groups, it is a life saver. I started at lvl 2 sanctuary, I'm now lvl 10 and I'll probably be getting that darn alligator mount before P7S.

[@wadeslilson4385]

This content will ALWAYS be there. People still go do UCOB and UWU, if you need a break you take a break. They shouldn't put in less content because people are burning themselves out on the content they are putting in the game

[@mypurpletie]

Congrats on your first savage clear bro. As far as p6s goes, or any high end duty, all you need to do is get your feet wet with a fresh prog. Every fight is trial and error. You may mess up on the easier mechanics, and you'll mess up more than once on the harder ones, but you'll eventually learn from them. Also keep in mind that some wipes will not be your fault. This is all part of prog, but as long as you're persistent you'll get the clear 💪

[@VashimuXIV]

As a relatively new player, about six months in, I feel I’m still in no position to do an ultimate, I still haven’t even done Savage, I still can’t deny there is that side of me that is like, “that seems hard but do-able.” But I do believe perhaps only one ultimate per patch would be more preferable.

[@mypurpletie]

Hope you're enjoying the game. Have you tried any EX Trials? As far as high end content goes, those are the easiest imo. It may be better to warm up with a few EX Trials and get used to that difficulty before Savage raids, but if you want to jump straight into them then that's cool too. It's very satisfying clearing them for the first time.

[@VashimuXIV]

@@mypurpletie The only extremes I have under my belt are unsynced, but I do my research for fights. And I still couldn’t be having a better time truth be told, even with just leveling jobs and doing hunts, it’s opened my eyes to how great MMOs are. One day I’ll dive into Savage

[@ericmoll1530]

Play a healer in p1 and then see if you still enjoy it. It sucks. That phase was designed by someone who forgot cast times and healing ranges exist.

[@bnhearyza4767]

Personally I think 2 ultimate per expansion is good, though like others I think x.1 and x.5 should be where they are released. I also think the difficulty is fine. We already have a sort of difficulty progression for Ultimates. UWU is so easy that it barely even qualifies as an Ultimate in my mind, UCoB is a lot tougher but generally doable by many, TEA is notably harder than that, then DSR is harder than TEA, and now we have TOP. If TOP is too hard for people there are plenty of other fights, including other Ultimates, that are more accessible, which is great.

[@neobahumuth6]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee despairge

[@renanfarias9230]

Phase 5 is very interesting but at the same time very flawed and poor thought. The need of macro for marking players or even addons for auto markers speaks for that.

[@tinticit]

I just found this fight boring as a spectator. I'm sure doing it is quite different than just watching.

[@jonathangaudreault1261]

I think double ultimates per expansion is fine but maybe not with this high of a difficulty. While i understand its supposed to be the hardest of the hard of content when even the top 1% of players are getting burnt out by the difficulty and effort you know its a problem.

[@TheDigimon2000]

Oi first

[@sweepingtime]

Yeah this just affirms to me that I will never touch Ultimate content. Savage is already stressful to do, and to spend every evening doing Ultimate? Even considering I don’t have a life, Ultimate is just next level of not having an outside life to me.

[@shatteredakuma]

i watch a streamer named Kryptos_Four every time he does his ultimate prog streams. i first started watching while he was progging dsr, which took him from release to early december 2022 to clear. and when hes progging top, i can see it in his face the exhaustion. while i think that ultimates are healthy for the game, i think there needs to be a limit. people like kryptos, a midcore ultimate raider should be excited and motivated to clear but thats not happening. either 1 ultimate per expansion, or 1 hard and 1 less hard per expansion.

[@volantblade2024]

If ultimate players can’t handle having 2 an expansion I’ll gladly exchange that for more pvp content.

[@notoriousotaran8015]

DSR and TOP are in the category of too hard to be worth it imo. Challenge is fun but any of the FF11 players know that Absolute Virtue and Pandaemonium Warden were just ridiculous. People have argued that AV wasn't meant to be cleared and that's a fair argument, but really DSR and TOP are just reaching levels of too difficult for what they're worth. People are coming out on the other side feeling haggard instead of excited.

[@ragnorak5095]

I don't think priority/swap system is healthy, too difficult for PF (I know crazy to prog on PF but MANY do it). Yes p8s had snake but TOP demands it on many phases. All this will do is sway people to cheating, all this priority is relegated to AM. So now AM will be the standard and acceptable. Eventually ZOOM hack will be the norm to deal with the encounter.

[@nikoninen]

Zoomhack would provide almost no benefit to people in pf as its main purpose is to collect information on the mechanics not to execute them

[@taitloyek7980]

Also the devs really don’t intend current ultimates to be done in pf.

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

@@nikoninen This is not true. Being able to see the entire arena to know where people are adjusting and to quickly gain information to resolve mechanics with random debuffs is extremely valuable.

[@RudolvonStroheim]

Well. Ultimates are not mandatory. Those who are crying they can't do it, try harder or stop. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@sovrack134]

Hated this ultimate, buggy and finicky mechanics where almost every phase had an unintended bug. The devs always do this, the community goes "Your game is too easy.". And do they make the base game a tad harder? No. They make the hardest content in the game even more so.

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

This ultimate shows why casters doing less damage than melees as a default is extremely poor job design...casters have to work twice as hard to do less damage than a melee who essentially had free movement.

[@TheOptimistDelusion]

BLM sure. RDM maybe. SMN absolutely not

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

@@TheOptimistDelusion SMN is basically a phys ranged, which essentially makes RDM useless. Chain rezzing has little to no utility in TOP.

[@UltimegaSeven]

Its not bad design. People think melee is easy because the hot box is bigger, bit this simply means devs have more freedom with their "get away" mechanics. But melee players always need to think of uptime, being ballsy during certain mechanics, and most importantly, have strats built around them to do the above reasons. Every expansion, a ranged player complains that melee does more than them despite never thinking of the freedom they get both physically and mentally when playing said class. The only caster that should do high damage is black mage because it has to stay still.