Yep. Imagination is Demonic. (Unironically)

The modern lifestyle, with boring and fake jobs and soycial media, people spend lots of idle time in idle fantasy. This is the source of many bad habits and evils, unironically.
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[@tylermckee]

5:26 Reminds me Dostoevsky's short story "White Nights". The main character is so absorbed in imagined conversations that he's bothered when real people interrupt them.

[@seronymus]

That's literally me :( autism moment

[@seronymus]

@@SIMUL4CR4 Orthodox monks are often quite intelligent and creative, yet make a VERY strong point of not letting your imagination run wild during prayer. There's a diff between creativity and imagination Latter is passive and fed by demons to bad fantasies. It's all about sobriety.

[@yinch5620]

EXACTLY. And Notes From the Underground for the part about judging people

[@simp2234]

What about animals 😅

[@seronymus]

@@simp2234 Animals do not have souls, although they do have a certain spiritual energy.

[@TheZalor]

This is why certain mystics make a huge distinction between "fantasy" and "imagination". Fantasy being everything you discussed in this video, and Imagination being in touch with something deeper and true. Great works of art (take the Divine Comedy or mythology as an excellent example) are products of the imagination, not fantasy. There is something archetypal that true imagination expresses, while fantasy is self-indulgent.

[@Idothinkysaurus]

I wish everyone knew this. Some words have really lost their meaning over time.

[@Idothinkysaurus]

@@vers1fier The "dark side" of imagination is fantasy. I think we could be more specific and say that OP might mean strictly creative imagination as being separate from fantastical (as in desired reality, not as in outlandishly impressive) imagination, given that working your imagination is to generate an image in the mind (practically speaking). A fantasy is a selfish thing, so to imagine fantasies would be evil. You can unintentionally fantasize (or fantasize unknowingly) as well, and this is what you need to watch out for, as Luke said in the video. Think of good imagination as being whatever happens when an artist (of any kind, musician, performer, writer, etc.) is creating, but doesn't know what he's making. The art speaks for itself in this case. It's more like creativity is divine, for I hope obvious reasons, rather than there being a difference between fantasy and imagination. Fantasy is desire when imagination is the format of the desire, if you get what I mean (like a file type). Art with a plan is not art, but a product, yet the stylization and imperfections are the artistic aspects shining through the product's planned design, thus still making it art, even if obfuscated. Cliche reference, but Jordan Peterson talks about this when he talks about his collection of USSR propaganda art. The art itself, the creative/divine aspects, has outlasted the politics it was supposed to purport, the fantasy/desire. The interesting thing is that creating with intent is a tightrope to walk. Are you letting the divine work through you, wanting a specific image for it (bold to think you have a grasp of the divine to make that call), or are you simply giving in to desire (you're pushing an agenda with your art)? Does a man build a house as a bird builds a nest? It seems like one of those endless questions you use as a party trick, but we have the free will to choose our intent, or to even choose at all, which is something people try to deny. I'm digressing, but I hope you see what I mean.

[@dagon99]

@@Idothinkysaurus for the last part i think it comes in waves. At first your inspired by the divine, attempt to create that which you desire based on the inspiration from the divine, only to backtrack or redo the work, to then have the cycle repeat until fully satisfied.

[@iank4814]

Imagination is also required for both empathizing with others and creating a world view

[@giampaolotinti4793]

it's all about the role you take, passive or active. it applies to thinking in general, "having thoughts" is not the same as "thinking". It's not a demons related thing but it's an hindrance to some practices

[@toastybread_ch]

this video is so on the nose, I've been doing the thing where I just constantly fantasize about being productive and achieving my goals all the time but never end up doing any of it for YEARS now, and its really ramped up recently, I think I'm going to make a conscious effort to stop that now. Thank you for the insightful video Luke. (I doubt I'll ever be able to stop acting out conversations in my head though, that's so ingrained in my thought process I don't think I could extricate it, not to mention that it's actually useful in helping me figure out how best to articulate the information that I want to communicate with the other party)

[@LukeSmithxyz]

I don't think thinking through conversations is bad. It can be very important to think things through and organize thoughts, but if you think through conversations just for entertainment, that is what I'm talking about here.

[@ArniesTech]

100% with you here. Sometimes my Imagination overwhelms me and I need a break from that and so the circle goes in 😅

[@HypeRapEnjoyer]

hot damn, you're literally me. wtf...

[@sumkindacheeto]

What some might not realize, is that inner monologue thoughts are to a certain point external from your self. I've noticed that listening to my breathing is enough of a conscious effort to stop inner monologues like that. You can get so overwhelmed over long periods of time to the point where it's abhorrent.

[@_____________3229]

I SEE YOU. G

[@venturelord32]

Learning to recognize fantasy and turn away from it will increase your self control and ground you in reality. Not easy, but worth it for the results and peace it brings.

[@ВасилБонев-р1ю]

There is an Alan Watts quote which stated something like "If you are the chatter inside your mind, who is then listening to it?". About the imagination part I learned to "Think of what you want, not how it is going to happen"

[@saeedbaig4249]

Reminds me of another Alan Watts quote - "A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts. So he loses touch with reality, and lives in a world of illusions."

[@That_Freedom_Guy]

There will always be an Alan Watts quote. Lol .

[@KyriosHeptagrammaton]

Absolutely agree with the second part. I spent close to two years imagining scenarios about how fate would bring me and a girl I liked together. I would purposely (for some reason) avoid thinking "I like her. I want to date her/ask her out etc." So obvious in retrospect

[@Vampyr_000]

The devil

[@nastjavk]

Alan Watts was not really happy guy. He had problems with alcohol.

[@limede]

I rarely dream (or remember my dreams), at most just a handful of times per year - it is that rare for me. But I do daydream a lot, and indulge in it the same way you mentioned.

[@GGJJ-xg8hx]

For me it is the opposite, I dream every day of my life and I remember the dream for the rest of the day haha

[@TheAmbasador99]

In my mind, I am either a knight aided by the angels in a heroic quest or a miserable drunken nihilist who must find the lord

[@lordAgustin]

This used to happen to me quite a lot honestly. I had internal monologues about what I should do and how I should approach it, but more often than not, I always ended up just being more than comfortable with the fake scenario I made up inside my head. The thing that changed this structured way of thinking was when during the 2020 confinements I started learning japanese without ever thinking if this'd go well or not, or if I would like putting my other "activities" aside (mostly playing lots of videogames, some of which I even had an agenda and dates for). So, I took action inmediately and just did it. Now two years later, I passed the mid level exam for japanese and finally got something out of my efforts. You're the only person who can bring about change. Same thing I did with Linux last year, I just started using it without ever thinking if I'd get used to it or not (actually, Windows 11 was the last push for me to do that lol) So, I think this amounts to two key concepts which should be useful for getting shit done, be a man of action. When you want to start a project, the only things that should go into planning are the essential things: 1. How do I start this? 2. What do I need to start it? Then, after figuring out those two questions, start your project ASAP, no bs, no thinking about the possible outcomes, nothing of the sort.

[@Primatenate88]

Solid advice although I do think that in such a competitive world, it does become important to cover your blindspots by thinking out the big steps before launch. Not too long ago, I had spent alot of time and money trying to build a business with this guy I thought I could trust. Sadly, we didn't have the money nor the clients that were crucial for a successful take-off, and a business loan isnt as easy to aquire as my "friends" allowed me to believe. I gave up on the project but the dude I started it with wouldn't let up and continued running down dead end road. I did end up learning 3 major life lessons: 1) Always stay skeptic around hypebeasts and narcissists that are surface level contributors. Skepticism is a double edged blade, practicality is the hilt. 2) Know when to call a spade a spade, as soon as you smell bullshit trust your own nose. 3) Money ain't close to everything but procrastination is expensive. Pissing money away, while slower, can break you just as easily as throwing it down a hole

[@MrRazzor11221]

@@HighlyVolkish I cried when he started with japanese and ended with linux. BINGO!

[@blitzer658]

well a challenge that comes up instantly is how do you manage a bunch of things you wanna do and not just one?

[@DylAlitY]

I wrote a 20+ page document about a technology I couldn't develop for a company I had to contact with and decided it would be my life's entire purpose for 3 months. Fantasized about being a millionaire genius steve jobs character all the time (in retrospect). Nothing happened. lol. lmao.

[@nasreddinehodja5930]

@@MrRazzor11221 I heard some guy on youtube started with latin and ended with linux

[@zaccstacc4568]

I have oddly realistic dreams of me doing normal day-to-day things. The weird thing is, I occasionally cannot remember if they actually happened or not. Like speaking with someone, ordering or preparing something, etc

[@LinkEX]

I know people that imagine things so vividly that they occasionally cannot remember whether they had the interaction or not. But I haven't heard of anyone that has that problem with dreams regularly. Sounds like you are having quite lucid dreams regularly then. Remembering them that intensely is rather uncommon without training. Do you happen to do some sort of sports that demands a good sense of balance?

[@rikustorm13]

Same

[@TheBlenderblob]

this is exactly what happened to me when I started dream journaling, so I gave it up.

[@zaccstacc4568]

@@LinkEX no, i just work out / lift weights

[@Pointy_Bird]

I do that too

[@19mduffy]

I wouldn’t say imagination is bad but “daydreaming” definitely is. Some call it maladaptive daydreaming to be specific. You definitely should be imaginative and creative but having control over it , immediately turning it into action or discarding it is the key I believe. Some eastern philosophies talk a lot about this which is something I’ve been meaning to read into but haven’t because I thought about it too much lol.

[@anonemoose102]

Big clarification lol. Luke needs to calm down.

[@jacobgluszek]

this

[@michaelturk7237]

Agreed. It's not so much creativity, but the lack of concrete action thereafter that is the problem. That being said, I definitely think Luke is overthinking this one. This is purely anecdotal, but most of the people I encounter who are inactive/stagnant do NOT have a very active imagination. Sometimes people just suck at living, and like they say, sucks to suck.

[@lukkkasz323]

@@michaelturk7237 I have the opposite problem, imagination kinda rules my life, it's not easy to act on it for me and this is only increasing over time.

[@tylersingleton9284]

​@lukkasz323 I am the same way. I can't stop thinking of ways to improve my farm, upgrade my truck, organize my home, or learn new skills. The problem is my imagination far exceeds my ability to implement it.

[@MichaelDeBusk]

Your use of the word "degenerate", a word I rarely hear, got me curious about its definition and etymology. It comes from Latin "de genere" which looks to me like "away from that to which you were born." So calling someone "degenerate" is like saying "you were raised better than that!" :)

[@ldahmy]

Or you could think of it from a religion perspective like "straying from the path god intended"

[@MichaelDeBusk]

@@ldahmy I may be wrong, but I understand "de genere" to mean "from-born" rather than "to-born".

[@ldahmy]

@@MichaelDeBusk Idk tbh with you but in the context I meant, it doesn't make a difference since the reason for birth or since birth is basically the same. But I believe it's the purpose before the being kind of thing.

[@simonlinser8286]

i think it means to be not acting in ways that further your ability to procreate or do beneficial things for yourself, but by viewing yourself as part of a greater thing, a collective, that any actions of selfish fulfillment of base desires, anything which can damage your ability to do those things required of you as a member of society is what is meant by degeneracy. but then it draws in to question whether I'm even a member of society and if by living by the status quo i would truly be doing good because what is labeled as good or desired behaviors today are actually contributing to the downfall of society and the ecosystem, therefore reducing the future potential for success of the species.

[@ticktockbam]

No, I use it as a derogatory term, and so do most people that use it.

[@asmallphd9648]

The things you are describing are very relatable. I have never heard the perspective that imagination is a bad thing until now. However I have genuinely learned lessons from dreams, so I do still think they have their place. I think you just need to think more critically about them.

[@notuxnobux]

I read that as "I have genuinely learned lessons from demons"

[@lithe.susurrous661]

I agree. I try to use correct discernment and pray not to be deceived.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

@@notuxnobux being against dreams is literally against the bible, or have you not read about Joseph?

[@pup4301]

That what I like these people are missing in all of this. Half the population do not have the ability to imagine a setting or physical object with accuracy. When having dreams the followers of the father always were given gifts of insight and instruction during their sleep. Most intriguing part is they were given full on images of places and objects from the father. I am not going to sit here and act as if all dreams are demonic. We have to use critical thinking skills to decode them to understand where they are birth from.

[@josechacon2446]

@PUP while God can talk to us in our dreams, our own delusion or the anti-Christ can influence us, disguised as God. We should realize the limits of our understanding and take our experiences to spiritual fathers to help guide us through these experiences. We must not delude ourselves with potential imagined ideas of grandeur.

[@leadrevolver]

I agree with your views on most matters, but not this one. The same arguments you bring against imagination could be applied against thinking in general. Imagination is one of the things that makes us human and it's essential for religion and most facets of human life. An unimaginative person is an NPC, by definition. So no, I wouldn't like a lobotomy. Thanks.

[@mickantra]

I think his point is not to revel in it or maybe to use it productively rather than as a time waster.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

@@mickantra Luke would do well to not literally demonize imagination when he really means poor impulse control

[@eggr1ce374]

I have a horrible habit of planning and fantasizing my future instead of actually making the moves to turn it into a reality. Bless KZbin Algo for giving me this video at the right time.

[@Lindormber]

Same here.

[@3hunna501]

same

[@emptybottle1200]

same man, I've been thinking about my future, I never live in the present.

[@feedandseed5632]

That is only the case for people who let their mind lead them and not the other way around, passive thought and time with your mind can be positive, if allowed it can be a good time for self reflection, constructive self criticism, and goal evaluation.

[@awgzmp]

Wow, I have never actually thought about it that way. That's why I "love your channel"(that sounds cringe) I genuinely hear a different perspective compared to everything else I find online. The part about daydreaming your goals and not doing anything about them hit me like a truck. Thank you sir. In Serbia more than 90% are Orthodox Christians, but unfortunately out of those 90%, more than 70% is declaratively a Christian. Including me unfortunately, at least until recently. But anyway you can definitely feel Orthodox values tacitly permeate everything whether or not they consciously believe it or not. Thanks to you I've started going to Liturgies on Sundays (for the first time! A bit shameful to admit that I've never been on one knowing that I've grown up in an Orthodox country). I have mainly started going because of your advice in one of your livestreams where you've said:"If you don't believe in God just go to church. Go and tell them the truth, don't lie that you believe. Tell them that you don't believe but that you want to participate. Maybe it's Holy Spirit that have made you go there, but you don't believe it. Just go to church" I have listened to that advice. I am truly a non-resistant non-believer currently and I hope I will get to believe because "rationally thinking" many aspects of Orthodox Christianity have made me think and made sense like nothing else so far in my life. Though I'm not sure what is it that I would need to feel or think to be able to say that I now believe. Would be awesome to hear your conversion story. What was the point after you've said:"I now believe!"? Was it a sudden change one morning after a chain of steps you've taken recently? Or was it more of a gradual convincing where you've realized that Orthodox and generally Christianity is right about almost everything. (The second part is something I'm inclining towards, yet I don't think I would be able to say, without lying, that I believe in God because of that) It's "funny" and sad at the same time that you, a guy from another continent, made me go to an Orthodox church while living literally 10 walking minutes away from the Orthodox church. I would say that the writing on your website named "Modern Freedom means being a Slave to Impulses" have truly moved me. Since reading that, which I have translated in Serbian and have read to my friends, since reading that text I have: Stopped watching porn completely, almost completely removed cooming(not all the way there yet unfortunately...), stopped drinking soda and cut out "the Internet" as a means to entertain myself. For the first time since I was a kid without the internet I get *bored* and am realizing the power of it which you have talked about. Though daydreaming was the part that switched places with "internet entertainment" and have been struggling with that since. This put a whole different perspective both on Freedom and on getting bored. I truly want to thank you for your writings and things you do. Thank you.

[@jack_galt]

Not Luke, but I can give you a glimpse into my story. It was a gradual process. In mid-2018, something told me that I should actually crack open a Bible. I started reading from Genesis. The blinders started coming off of my eyes simply from reading the two accounts of Creation. I had always taken Creation for granted, and never thought much about it. But I was suddenly fascinated by it and how it came to be. I read about the different theories (Young/Old-Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution) while continuing to read through the Bible. At that point, I had accepted the existence of a God, but I wasn't sure if Christianity was true. I began attending church services and understanding the gospel. But I didn't feel truly convicted until the end of 2018 when I was actively committing sin. That's when I truly understood my depraved nature and need for Christ.

[@Nelson-sr2bi]

You can get a good intellectual foundation for Orthodoxy by listening to/watching Jay Dyer, try his debate analyses (where he commentates on a debate between an atheist and a Protestant Christian)

[@UNDETGreenMT]

When you become repentant about living the way your flesh desires and you start to replace those actions with obedience to God's instructions

[@is5226]

Prijatelju kod mene skoro pa ista prica haha

[@jarataka]

Bazirano

[@beskamir5977]

On the flip side, simulating events in our imagination can be beneficial for preparing for the real thing. Although as you said, a lot of the time that simulation feels like you've completed the task. I'll even completely plan out a project on paper where I'll solve all the various challenges but then completely lose interest in the entire thing since all that's left is to actually implement it.

[@inerax1821]

Orthodox Christianity is 100% right about this one and it caught my interest when he mentioned this in the livestream. I used to have this awful habit for years - I'd plug in my headphones and pace around the room imagining the same hypothetical scenarios over and over again (bad and good scenarios) just for entertainment. At the worst point I've actually muted skype calls with friends so that I can pace around my room for 15 minutes. It got so insane that I had to google it and there are tons of people who do it - they call it maladaptive daydreaming and the worst part is you can do it absolutely anywhere. This is basically mental masturbation for non-NPCs and I've wasted hours on it. Despite what jaded internet users tell you, real life is always much more interesting and nuanced than your wildest dreams. Let yourself be surprised by it, because in your mind you're limited by your own ''idea'' of what constitutes a worthwhile experience. Basically touch grass.

[@mariapop747]

I do the SAME thing. I have decided to not take it seriously and just enjoy it because reality around me is ynnatural

[@sp00kyvin]

oh shit... man I didn't know I had a weird condition. I literally do the same blasting music and walking around at home wasting time imagining things.

[@Belks1453]

I do this sometimes but I always do it outside and I only really imagine stuff like series i like and altermate stories and shit, it acts as a destressant and hasn't got in the way of my goals. (The sexual part was an issue a while back and I suppressed it as much as possible)

[@chronotriggerfan]

Excellent point about fantasizing about productive goals. I've had more than a few personal projects get delayed or scrapped this way. The mind has trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality. Watching too many movies or TV shows can have a similar effect, where the moral parables of the fiction are internalized despite the conscious mind understand that the story is "fake".

[@chronotriggerfan]

@@miquellluch1928 Solipsistic nonsense.

[@OttoKopeczky]

Ironic how the delivery of this message would not have been possible (at least not to so many people) if it were not for imaginations.

[@MrBones105]

I agree. I think Luke is splitting (psychologically) a bit around this topic.

[@lostintechnology1851]

The same holds true when he talks about technology. I think it is time for him to buy a Mac.

[@El-iw6xn]

@@MrBones105 when Christianity teaches you that things are black and white you’ll fall into that

[@tu_nonna_emiliana]

@@lostintechnology1851 lmaooo

[@thelastgeneration1926]

exactly. i don't believe imagination is evil at all. theres' good thoughts and bad thoughts

[@Akab]

That's what "overthinking things" means. I think that puting a thought in some things is not "demonic" or necessarily bad, I think it's the opposite in many cases as it is an important part of ourselfes, but I agree that doing it too much prevents you from actually getting stuff done. Edit: Not to defile your faith or whatever, believe what you want to believe in, that's not for me to decide. I just want to say that the "Imagination = bad" agenda is actually pretty common in sects because they want you to stop thinking for yourself. I've had personal experience with that. TLdr: Finding a midground is what is most important there. Thoughts should neither be demonified nor taken as some godly prophecy, they should be seen as what they are: Thoughts.👍

[@adamkoxxl]

This. Finding a middle ground can also be applied to many other things. No extreme is good.

[@ix6510]

> the "Imagination = bad" agenda is actually pretty common in sects because they want you to stop thinking for yourself just some food for thought - I think you are conflating imagination with autonomy (and I am inclined to believe that the sects you refer to are at least inadvertently trying to push this confusion). I can only speak from the Orthodox perspective but there is no Church teaching that states that man should not have autonomy or exercise his own will. It's just that, for the sake of his own spiritual protection, his will should be oriented towards God's will, not out of an effort to "not think for himself" but literally to protect himself. In this same way a son would follow his father's advice since the father's only goal is the protection and wellbeing of his son. A son is not his father's slave, he is his son, and through his dad's example he learns how to properly take care of his own. What's happening here is an actual exercise of Fatherhood, not slavery. Unfortunately this confusion is pushed a lot in our times, so that in an effort to achieve "freedom" and "autonomy" all we end up achieving is more fatherlessness. I know this is only tangentially related to your main point; I just wanted to give my 2 cents about the imagination/autonomy issue. all out of respect. God bless you

[@rhett5058]

People don’t believe what they want to believe, that believe what is true. This does not mean factual, but true. I never decided to believe in God, it was the necessary and rational revelation that came from all the information that has been presented to me. Fantasies that distract you from the righteous path are absolutely demonic and will make your life Hell. Thoughts devoted to high ideals will lead you to growth and salvation. Stop mental masturbating and go better yourself.

[@zedth2]

I still do the conversation thing in my head, I think it's just myself trying to prepare for things. If I'm talking to myself then it's usually working through a problem. If it's imagining someone else talking to me then I think it's trying to get emotions in check.

[@freesoftwareextremist8119]

Based and autismpilled.

[@uzzwickg3415]

Agreed! I think a lot of daydreaming is the brain running scenarios over and over with slight variations to prepare for the future

[@saeedbaig4249]

Rashness is too much doing, not enough thinking. Fantasising is too much thinking, not enough doing.

[@greatcoldemptiness]

I write archeofuturist sci fi for a living, and I am blessed by my insane imagination, but I'd say that it's more of a problem of willpower than imagination. Rumination is fine, it's what you do with it that's the kicker

[@seronymus]

Where do you publish?

[@thepersonyouknow1714]

Same case for me, I’m writing some near future stuff to see if i can do it in the first place

[@joshchamplin5652]

Dreams are very important, if you can remember them after you wake up, write them down! The the unconscious mind is so sharp powerful, and dreams are the best way of speaking to it.

[@cc.jsullivan]

It's funny, I was watching "Welcome to the N.H.K." this weekend and the takeaway message from that show was basically the bit at 5:00 Delusion takes over when you're constantly defining a goal, but not acting to implement it.

[@michaelvatson7056]

Guard against this. When pursuing a goal, and it fails you, do not despair. Take a brake, forget about the goal for a while, then try to continue it later. If it is worth to continue it do so, else, let it go. In other words, don't make goals and work your idol, they will fail you.

[@Se7enth351]

This is something I struggle with a lot, getting absorbed into my own mind and leaving reality. It's so easy to drift off and view the world through mental models instead of actually being present.

[@evan7391]

I have this exact problem as well. I dwell on my thoughts so often that it feels that I forget what is happening in reality and in my life in general.

[@mariapop747]

Same

[@holymegadave]

We had a nice childhood full of schizo cartoons that made us a bit autistic haha

[@thepersonyouknow1714]

I’d rather be in my daydreams than real life

[@holymegadave]

@@thepersonyouknow1714 real life is crap... at least city life sorrounded by dumbos

[@AppalachianAcademics]

Are you Russian Orthodox? I’m a Roman Catholic myself. Here in the West we don’t think the imagination is necessarily demonic; in fact, we actually believe it can be a tool for Christian meditation that can eventually lead to contemplation. Many people choose to meditate on the mysteries in the Rosary by imagining they are there and observing the events in the mystery. Good thoughts though!

[@danielnicholson25]

so true. When I was a major pothead, I would sit around and daydream and I got pretty bad bad on porn and lived in fantasy world thinking that one day the perfect life would just fall in my lap thanks to crap like the law of attraction and "the secret". Fantasizing is a deadly trap, and it is actually encouraged to young children by these mainstream medias and cartoons. As a Texan, when I was growing up, i knew a lot of country kids who didnt play video games and watch anime. They were hunting, riding four wheelers, working, etc... These people seem to have a much greater quality of life and better character than those who indulged in the mainstream culture garbage.

[@notgate2624]

You have equated negative thought patterns to the idea that thought itself is negative. It's basically an over simplification or fallacious argument. Introspection is good when done properly. Planning is good when done properly. Imagining is good when done properly. If you're sitting in your own dream world of degeneracy and not accomplishing things with your life that's bad, but that doesn't mean that the capability to do such a thing or the act of doing it is bad. Control your thoughts, do not silence them.

[@francesco3772]

Are you for real? This whole video begins with the premise that prayer led Luke to a realization, is your take that the realization implies totally suppressing imagination therefore making prayer an act of blind recitation? Follow your own advice and use your head as more than a paperweight.

[@notgate2624]

@@francesco3772 The whole video talks about the downsides of imagination and the title calls it demonic. A lot of it is vague too. He's done a better job in the comments of clarifying that some aspects of imagination (just literal forms of thinking about the world or organizing thoughts) he views as fine. Idk what your goal is by insulting me but maybe you should try a little harder to discuss things properly without letting emotion get in the way. It'll only make people respect your opinion less.

[@overclucker]

I don't think imagination is too be avoided entirely, but it is an adversary to discipline.

[@overclucker]

Typed on Android

[@dr.klausschwab6184]

@@overclucker lmao

[@johnsherfey3675]

At some points in my life due to depression and circumstances, imagination or fantasy was really the only thing holding me together. Imagining being a different scenario or talking stuff through with myself was helpful rather than hurtful. It also kept me from porn and other things and got me into drawing, or writing stuff out. If you're Christian there are also other aspects I could go into about it, but that's where I'll leave it.

[@thecomicssectionchannel5988]

I see Luke Smith notification, I instant watch while at work

[@RSanchez111]

I was reading a book on the Jesus Prayer, and the author (Frederica Mathewes-Green) talks about a time she went to an event where the worship minister invited everyone to pray. (I assume the minister was evangelical, the author did not say.) She said the minister said, "Now let's imagine that Jesus is really present with us. Let's picture what it would be like if he was actually here." And the author, being an Eastern Orthodox Christian, thought to herself that Jesus really *was* there. She says the kind of meditation where you're invited to imagine Jesus seems to her truly awful. She said, "About the most dangerous thing you could do, in fact, would be to set your imagination free, and then believe that whatever it told you was a message from God. Since it is possible to encounter God in reality, there is no need for fantasy."

[@omarkenoh]

Coming from an Islamic background, I recall a religious leader talking about a similar topic in regards to fiction writing. His claim was that the obsession of people to consume fictional media (a form of imagination) always led to sin. People derive moral values, process memories and thoughts within the framework of fictional events, leading to something toxic and sinful. I wish I could find the link, but it's a really interesting topic.

[@Jacoby64z]

Imagination is an important tool: it’s how Einstein discovered that time is relative, or how Tolkien created middle earth. The problem is when a person confuses imagination with reality.

[@darthbanana7]

both of those are made up

[@Jacoby64z]

​@@darthbanana7 I like the music and visuals on your channel- assuming you didn't rip it from elsewhere. :3

[@snorpy]

I agree with a lot of this except for the part about having convos in your head. Obviously having excessive sexual fantasies isn't a good thing because they tend to be completely divorced from reality, but since talking to people is actually something thing I do on a daily basis, I find mentally practicing before a conversation can actually be a very practical and effective tool to help flesh out your thoughts and put them into words. Granted, I try to only do this with people who are close to me because sometimes pre-rehearsed talking points do sound really weird when spoken irl, but I know that saying something stupid to my best friend or brother is ultimately water off a duck's back.

[@MrDarren690]

Having conversations in your head--because it implicitly requires you to care about other people--is a sign of a healthy theory of mind. You're totally fine.

[@robmusial]

We hear this a lot now from politicians and academics: “we need a reimagining of $thing” where $thing is the economy, or society, or laws, etc. And that has always bothered me because it supposes a lack actual work, but now it is going to bother me because of this too. Also Jeremiah says “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked”

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

the hack politician's idea of a re-imagining is only marginally a re-imagining. It's just $thing but with higher taxes, centralized surveillance, and usually some nuspeak peppered throughout to make it sound like it's in the name of protecting one group of proles from another.

[@6400ab]

I don't know man. I have goals and just "thinking" about them doesn't give me any kind of pleasure. If anything, just thinking about the possible outcomes while not taking any steps toward them makes me feel like garbage because I know I'm just wasting time.

[@Cannedscourge]

Plato had written that the Atlantean people did not dream (implying that they were carefree enough not to have them). Dreams have, historically, been a premonition or symptom of incongruity and malady.

[@divinesleeper]

Plato did not write this, stop making shit up or being naive enough to believe people who do.

[@Cannedscourge]

@@divinesleeper oops. You got me. It was Herodotus. go back to your simp forums and brag about how you owned me epic style for some reddit gold.

[@owenjohns6301]

I fall prey to the act of planning something so much you never do it. Posting about said activity on social media and getting updoots BEFORE you even do it is even worse. Insightful video as always Luke. Thank you.

[@Belks1453]

Daydreaming needs to be used sparingly and you need to have control, I use it as a destressant to make up scenarios for tv shows and videogames I watch/play, NEVER use that to imagine your future unless you do it extremely sparingly, it helped me plan out my future years in advance so I know what to do with my life but once I got a basic idea i stopped thinking about it. Remain in control.

[@greatcoldemptiness]

Daydreaming is only deadly to those with weak will

[@Belks1453]

@@greatcoldemptiness Exactly, remember that you control it, not the other way around.

[@THEDRAWINGSTUDIO1]

This video feels close to what I've been realizing lately. Moving alone for the first time after college (in a new state), I find myself in my thoughts 24/7. I've been watching John vervaeke's "meaning crisis" videos on KZbin and in them he mentions the idea that the West tends to put too much emphasis on thinking. He argues part of wisdom isn't really about acquiring more and more knowledge, but developing a tight coupling between yourself and the universe using the knowledge you already have. He argues that developing practices (whatever that may be) can serve as an antithesis for the inevitability of parasitic processing.

[@t74devkw]

Fascinating. I’ve been obsessively planning a homelab built upon Kubernetes for months now without even installing it. It’s so exciting to think about it that it becomes paralyzing at a certain point.

[@SpectreXS]

I am both guilty of running conversations with people inside my head and being stuck in planning-land imagination. I would guess that a lot of people do the same. Interesting perspective on it.

[@seronymus]

I am absolutely loving this OrthoLuke arc. ☦️ God bless you for spreading this holy truth, seriously, I'm a longtime fan. Hitting it out of the park. Discussing Fr. Seraphim Rose when?

[@johnpaulhumphrey2981]

Excellent points! I have found that just jumping in and doing something can (in some cases) be way more productive than "planning" (fantasizing) about the goal. Often I fantasize about a goal, and then accomplish it in a completely different way than I imagined,

[@MrChaosAdam]

This is amazing. I also act out conversation with people in my head and it always happens with people with whom my relationship is shaky, and this has never actually made anything better.

[@davethecredible8733]

Saying you're subbed to Luke for the tech tutorials is like saying you're to playboy for the articles.

[@vosbit]

Spiritual warfare/arena and temptations coming from demons was a concept i never heard in my protestant upbringing. Glad we found the path Luke.

[@elrichjr301]

This makes so much sense. No wonder all the "productivity" and "motivation" self-help rings hollow, it's all a secularized, neutered shadow of a real consideration of human thought process

[@ShamanicSavant]

To quote Edgar Allan Poe "Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only by night"

[@Meleeman011]

my former best friend had this problem bad. great imagination, poor execution

[@trevorfranks69]

"former" lol

[@dmandipper9102]

I get so much more out of these authentic videos man great work. Your channel has shed light on so many subjects with great delivery well spoken always.

[@galacticusX]

This is what we call "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

[@doktoracula7017]

There's important distinction to make: your thoughts are not you, your imagination is not you, your cravings and desires are not you. You don't have to act on any of those and it only becomes dangerous when you either act on them or don't act on other things because you're so fixated on mental states. You choose what you do, but you don't directly choose your mental state (at least I'm not on that level of mastery) Understanding that made it a lot easier to "control myself".

[@michaelvatson7056]

Yes, true. To add more, some things aren't present by default. People get into habit, can get used to constantly thinking, daydreaming. Then they allow to feed the beast that they created, and then they cannot escape the beast. You yourself are not you, but a product of the exterior world, the mind and the consumed things. One must learn self control.

[@veirant5004]

Being Russian, I addressed the same question to my brother. First of all, the question turned into a pun, since "бессонная ночь" in 99 cases out of a hundred in Russian will mean "restless or sleepless night", and in the remaining one - dreamless, which, in my opinion, is very funny, because asking God for to give you vanity and anxiety - not the first thing that would come to your mind. Then, after a little thought, with a face reflecting eureka, he said that he believes that dreams could be vulgar and therefore cause them becoming wet. This is brilliant, but at the same time as far from the truth as possible.

[@Anhonime]

oh, I didn't even consider this, but yeah, the exact same pun works in Polish "bezsenna noc"

[@JamesSmith-ix5jd]

never had wet dream in my life, does it start at like 2 weeks of not fapping?

[@absalondebarvac3715]

Family reasons, I'm still in the protestant side. Yet, have been noticing how fixated they are on this passive behavior, how they accept any sort of feeling as a manifestation of the will of God, and live by the principle of "letting things act out" till the outcome is mildly satisfactory. Even met some fellers whose method is pretty much rolling a spiritual die by making a basic prayer asking God for advice, then letting the first thought that comes into their minds be the final decision.

[@LarryHazard]

as someone raised catholic I'm always surprised by the stuff protestants call christianity

[@francesco3772]

Protestant moment, truly a plague upon humanity.

[@duncanw9901]

I mean, I don't know what form of Protestantism you're dealing with, but that with which I'm familiar has a very large emphasis on disambiguating between thoughts "of the world" and thoughts "of God," primarily through reading the Word searching for applicable principles. It's common for my family members to ask if each other have a verse supporting an upcoming big life decision. It's also good to note that unconditionally outsourcing spiritual matters to the clergy is no less casting spiritual lots; they have to make similar judgements. There's also a large emphasis placed on wise council in the Protestant faith, which recovers the genuine benefit that outsourcing does have.

[@theseriousaccount]

@@duncanw9901 probably american protestantism.

[@duncanw9901]

@@theseriousaccount I am also talking about American Protestantism...the latter term casts far too wide a net to justify many Catholic and Orthodox critiques imo

[@alexandersanchez9138]

This is where Luke loses me. At least 95% of my "imagination time" is doing math or music, which are both vocational for me and both require extensive creativity in order to do properly.

[@El-iw6xn]

He’s a Christian of course he easily falls into black and white good and evil thinking

[@githug6508]

Just don't imagine alternative life forms too recklessly or too deviant, especially not evil beings, those things have consequences. Once upon a time, I was thinking of tacos, then everybody figured out it was me doing the taco rain. They said they had to clean up the mess after what I did even though I don't and can't interact with those tacos.

[@SneedsFeeduckAndSeeduck]

@@githug6508 deranged schizo

[@salvatoreshiggerino6810]

The way I interpreted it is that what Luke is talking about it if you spent all your time looking at spec sheets for calculators and musical instruments and instead of actually doing math or creating music. Something I'm definitely guilty of in my own creative pursuits.

[@sparky4747]

Seems like a very similar concept to the “monkey mind” in Buddhism. Left to its own devices, the focus of our attention tends to drift towards base desires and distractions.

[@Pointy_Bird]

Thanks for the ideas on how thoughts aren't divine, and how they're usually garbage and I should question them, and how your emotions aren't actually what is right or wrong. It helps to hear that. So many people these days act as if their thoughts and feelings should guide them by some sort of "instinct". It's reinforced everywhere. "Follow your heart", "listen to your gut", that sort of thing. I may not agree with everything you say, or being religious in general, but you hit the nail on the head with those aspects of it.

[@jacobgluszek]

i found you to be spot on when it comes to that productivity point, where imagination and excess planning will feel better than action itself. i have recently become much more aware of this after a psylocybin trip that i had, where i realised that those sort of thoughts are literally useless without applying action. i now consciously try to limit myself to have about 1/10 planning to action ratio. this is one of many habits of mine which i'm slowly trying to transform into more positive and beneficial ones. great video, peace!

[@javiercbk]

I would say I have improved my habits when thinking. If I find myself thinking something I would not tell my friends about, then it is probably bad behavior and not good for me (either I'm criticizing others or thinking I'm the best, etc), and actively let that thought go. Jordan Peterson said something that was really helpful for me: "You don't have ideas; ideas have you". It helped me to understand why I have to be on guard even when I'm thinking Great video man, I appreciate it.

[@Arjay192]

Interesting ideas Luke. When I listen to your orthodox philosophies, I often find parallels to Tibetan Buddhist concepts. Esoteric faiths from around the world seem to share these similar ideas, they are a guide to working with your own mind at a fundamental level. The monk Tilopa speaks about liberating oneself from these mental traps in his passage called The Six Nails: Don’t recall, don’t imagine, don’t think, don’t examine, don’t control. Rest.

[@rorynolan4426]

i think this is really interesting. id also like to point out that we really evolved not to be alone very much, we're adapted to be around each other every moment of the day, so this dynamic with fantasies that you're talking about i think is partly a response to being alone

[@classicpinball9873]

What you’re referring to at 8:00 is an “ego trap”. We all fall into them because it’s incredibly easy but recognizing them is important so you can have a better outlook

[@Ky-vv8nj]

Thats insane that this topic came up. Ive been having dreams that have been legitimately depressing my lately. Every night for the last few days its been occurring. Then this video comes out.

[@turolretar]

You know, what I’ve finally really understood and come to terms with is thinking too much is just bad for you. You don’t get anywhere

[@kykloskatharevousa7147]

Good afternoon Luke, may God bless your sleep tonight, and in many nights to come. Amen.

[@lensy6]

This video reminded me a couple weeks ago i had a dream where i woke up feeling a severe fear because in the dream i had somehow been convinced that one wrong action would mean certain damnation with no chance of forgiveness which waking up was immediately obviously wrong but the fear from it still lingered. So yeah dreams really can be demonic.

[@linuxlifepage]

Luke hello from Russia. Have you tried learning Russian? Do you know about the Church Slavonic language (the old Russian language) in which there is a lot of valuable literature and in which church services are conducted? Regarding the topic of this video - all suspicious people are subject to strong mental activity and also frequent dreams and nightmares. The decision is also the opposite, not to get hung up on thoughts and do more / move / work / change the situation / have near close relatives

[@guywithyoutubechannel8176]

I think this is kind of the reason isolation is so bad for people. If you live as a recluse and don't talk to anyone, you are kind of forced to just talk to your own thoughts. And I believe that over a long enough period of time this can escalate into full schizophrenia. Now, I don't know how this translates exactly to the internet and "living just on the internet", but it's probably not the most optimal supplement for actual face to face conversations, even if there are actual, real humans behind these words.

[@goodgoy47]

Looks like they finally got him.. Luke is now an NPC. Just kidding but considering what you said it does seem to be the case that excess thought can be detrimental and so there must be a middle ground between NPC and neurotic overthinking. I definitely believe the demons feed off our negative idle thoughts & emotions. Stay positive and if you ever encounter such forces remember they're nothing but a paper tiger, don't take them seriously. Keep Jesus with you and be strong, they'll screw off. Thanks for another great video.

[@bignoob1790]

I'll agree with you that porn and escapism is bad, but creativity can be divine in some ways

[@MrSh4des]

Good content. I think analyzing people in social interactions is a good thing people tell the truth with their expressions. Recently got out of a cult due to this habit.

[@tropicalsunset2546]

4:30 is me to a tee, the pleasure of thinking about it is most if not 99% of the time greater than the act of doing it! I consume an above-average amount of self-help content and for me the strange thing is I don't feel like applying that knowledge in my life but just understanding the mechanics of how to adjust your mindset seems for whatever reason to satisfy me. I'm mainly "theory" and not practicality. Fascinating perspective.

[@tornado02ful]

Don't think kids. Just take opinion of others as your own and eat ze bugs

[@bowiethedog6285]

Thinking with intent is fine, don't daydream.

[@LambOfDemyelination]

Really haven't heard this subject spoken about a lot. But thank you for the video, it's insightful.

[@thepatient115]

Yes, when imagination is left untamed it can do harmful things. But that doesn't make it evil. If you are afraid of your own thoughts you should confront them instead of condemning them. The human imagination can be just as beautiful as it can be ugly.

Man, your communication skills are great. I don't even care that much about religion, but I can't resist watching your videos about it. The way you express the ideas is awesome! Thanks for your videos.

[@chupachuubach.]

Thank you Luke, I very much relate to this and should probably come back to this video from time to time. We really are our own worst enemies.

[@tato-chip7612]

I definitely had issues (heck even now) over fantasizing about what i want to do and not just doing it. Over thinking about how people would react if i did something. Say i took steps to improve myself and i was wondering "what would people think of me if i did it" In order to stop it dead in its tracks i've had to manually tell myself that it doesn't matter or nothing much would happen.

[@highvisibilityraincoat]

So true

[@SusLord718]

I disagree. If imagination is the source of many modern problems, then why is it that so many people are mindlessly consuming internet content? That doesn't stimulate the imagination, that buries it, or at the most negatively influences it. I think the problem you are trying addressing here is not imagination but rather escapism. Which people turn to in order to avoid negative emotions, including boredom. Nowadays escapism is so much easier than developing an elaborate internal fantasy, you can just go play videogames, watch porn, do drugs, and whatever else. Sure imagination can reach the point of being unhealthy, as all things are in excess. But we are humans, not robots, and letting your brain run wild for a bit is perfectly healthy and normal. I would say, it's how the external sources negatively effect our imagination that is the crux of the issue, not imagination itself.

[@SturFriedBrains]

This is why I like the Rosary and Prayer Rope so much. They are tactile, they keep you focused on God, grounded in his creation.

[@sprucescentedschizoid]

Adulthood is realizing the Orthodox are right about everything

[@MrBrimbles]

Glad to see you posting another video about Orthodoxy, God bless!

[@sk.9857]

I agree on some points but life would be pretty bland without imagination

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

yeah you can't be a fanatic about this stuff, imagination is one of the things that distinguishes us from animals. they have limited ability to model the world in their heads, but we have a much expanded capacity to do the same. we can imagine what the best course of action would be, but we can imagine things that are impossible, and we can make ourselves content with just imagining and not doing. that's the important takeaway.

[@seronymus]

You all are missing the point, creativity is not imagination. We merely need to be cautious and sober with what thoughts pop in our head. Love and humility are paramount.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

@@seronymus I respect the sentiment but drawing a line between creativity and imagination like they're different things is doublethink.

[@seronymus]

@@xXx_Regulus_xXx Creative and imaginative are not synonyms. One is active the other passive.

[@hamzasehavdic]

@@seronymus Brilliant Creativity requires a tool to interface with. A domain one is experienced with, so they can push the envelope Imagination is gibberish that never returns a benefit

[@arielalejandro6900]

this was very insightful, although there should be some middle point while we must be aware of our thoughts also It's good to look inside of us from times to times, lately i found myself trying to be busy all the time just to end up realizing that I was running away from thoughts about things were getting hard to accept.

[@rinwesley3092]

Thank the Lord for showing me this video. I feel so called out by the truth in this. 😄 I have the same prayer book, too.

[@grits4270]

In the abrahamic tradition it is generally accepted that the devil's only method of making mankind do his bidding is putting thoughts in people's heads, seeding doubts, temptations etc., so the title of the video isn't too far fetched. Be careful about which thoughts in your head are really your own, christbros.

[@djaniel4028]

This was a wonderful direction to go in and speak on

[@ferreus]

The conservative case against having an inner monologue.

[@xSephironx]

Woah 😮 this is absolutely profound. No wonder I've been a "game developer " for years yet could never finish a game. I'm obsessed and addicted to the planning part of it- to the point of abandoning the idea entirely because of how much of my life it's consumed from me. I feel like the lord guided me here to affirm this. Coincidentally I also made the decision to quit weed last night, because I knew that it had a sort of influence over my mind and contributed to the problem of my overactive imagination. Glory to christ!

[@ishashka]

I've been reading a lot of Fr. Woroniecki lately (a Polish early 20th century Dominican priest that wrote brilliant books, most famously about Catholic ethics and about the theory and practice of prayer, sadly his works haven't been translated to English). He puts a lot of attention to what I think is called the faculties of the soul in English (in Polish he calls them "władze człowieka" - literally "powers of man"). AFAIK he took the concept from Thomas Aquinas, and goes like this (I'm not sure of the exact terminology that would be appropriate in English, so I'll just use what seems right to me): Man is governed by 4 basic faculties that can be classified in 2 ways. Higher (Mental) - Lower (Bodily) and Cognitive - Desirive. Higher Cognitive is Reason, Lower Cognitive is Senses, Higher Desirive is Will, and Lower Desirive is Emotions. None of them is evil in and of itself, to the contrary, they're all good, but only if they're properly ordered. Reason should be guiding the Will, Will should keep Emotions in check, and Senses should provide information to Reason, but never directly influence the Will. This way each of them plays their proper role in guiding us through life so that we can glorify God. Now, I said there are 4 faculties, but actually Fr. Woroniecki says there's at least 2 more "Intermediary" faculties: Memory and Imagination. They're Intermediary because they have something to do with both desire and cognition, as well as function somewhere between mind and body. Their primary function, if I remember correctly, is to aid Reason in it's reasoning, and also to affect the Emotions, by showing us what was, or what could be. One good use of that is in mental prayer. By imagining scenes from the life of Our Lord, we can direct our Emotions towards God, and thus engage more fully in prayer, submit to Him not only our Will and Reason, but also the lower faculties. And how would all the beautiful sacral art come to be without imagination? So I don't agree that Imagination itself is evil, it's part of human nature as created by our Heavenly Father, but you do have a point in that *unrestricted* Imagination is dangerous, especially if we allow it take the place of Reason and Will.

[@VincentTamer]

This is something I’ve appreciated about Orthodoxy. So glad you are becoming Orthodox and to see you sharing it with your viewers.

[@vorgotheon9227]

Very Godly observations, Christ has risen. Thank you for your video brother.

[@tailethman2276]

I agree with this video but I noticed the exact opposite when it comes to studying for school. I am extremely lazy and I seldom study but I recently imagined myself studying VERY hard for upcoming papers while I am doing something recreational like gaming or watching yt. This imagery prompts me to study far earlier and for much longer than I did before. I have gone for 5hrs straight reading when I could barely crack an hour before, even while writing papers I was normally either very cocky or super nervous but I far more stable after doing this. It's weird because your message makes sense to me, but for some reason that specific situation is different for me.

[@charlieday6425]

I've read that gymnasts who visualise, who imagine themselves doing a particularly difficult manoeuvre before trying it have significantly better results, so I appreciate where you are coming from. Whilst Luke raises some great points regarding discipline and virtue, there's real validity to what you've experienced. I suppose it's about eliminating the erroneous and destructive thoughts without discarding the pragmatic tools of cognition.

[@guayo18]

I hope you are doing great Luke, I just hope you can keep doing videos about Orthodox stuff, I know like you say in this video it might be cringe but for us, people that live in a country that doesn't have access to an Orthodox Church, it's great to see content like this. Thanks again, blessings!

[@peanutarbuckle2879]

I get what you mean about this not being talked about enough, my entire normie cradle Catholic upbringing no one ever discussed this, though it's certainly in the theology and I wish I didn't have to discover this by stumbling upon schizo Catholic internet in my adulthood because a lot of the damage is already done. It's incredibly destructive, and much like loneliness and misery it's addicting.

[@3p1Kf41L]

how am i gonna kill this woolly mammoth if i can't imagine strategies? sorry I meant UNNNG BOOGA BOOGA OOOOOOO KRAKA RAKAK SHEEE OOHHH HAKKA HOO

[@oatbow1]

On the imagining conversations in your head. Carl Jung called something similar to this active imagination and saw it as a bridge to the unconscious. I think he would probably warn against practicing this without properly approaching it with known intentions and an anchor to bring you back to reality. In his therapy practice he found that using active imagination allowed his patients to actually resolve issues that were causing onsets of unwanted dreams.

[@kdnsjsnzbhashhwhsbsvwhwb741]

This guy makes me see that Christianity does actually have value. While I still don't believe religion has anything to do with God, I am no longer a Richard Dawkins style 'reddit atheist' looking down on things I don't understand .