"You're An Evil Person" - Debating A Marxist-Leninist On Ukraine

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[@arekhautaluoma4276]

"European creep into Ukraine" you mean a deal signed via consent? Wow!

[@InfiniteDeckhand]

Well, it's not like tankies ever cared about consent to begin with. History is full of good examples of that.

[@mnessenche]

Plus, Ukraine is European 😅

[@jloiben12]

@@mnessenche Damn it you beat me to it

[@sebastianlavallee706]

"Ukraine working with the EU / NATO is against Russia's interests" "Which interests?" "The interest in annexing Ukraine"

[@jloiben12]

@@sebastianlavallee706 Well said

[@zephyr8072]

I love how to these people, Ukraine is an entity that isn’t allowed to decide for itself what damn culture and relations it wants.

[@scruffopone3989]

Multipolarity, but not for you or you or you. Just me and my friends Russia and China.

[@ashfox7498]

Arguably even Russia isn't an entity that decides stuff for itself, "The West" is the only moral agent that makes choices, Russia reacts like a bear, powerful but totally driven by instinct, and Ukraine gets hurt like a small weak creature.. but ultimately "The West" made a choice to knock over a domino in this guy's head so it's their fault.

[@k0mm4nd3r_k3n]

Literally rape/murder/genocide apologist.

[@BOOOOOOOONE]

​@@scruffopone3989 You gotta love em. Multipolarity, to anyone who isn't spooked by their own ideology-wanking, just reads like the run-up to WWI. How about agitating to do away with a status quo where we either have one hegemon or a bunch of imperial powers competing to be it?

[@gingerlicious3500]

@@BOOOOOOOONE Sounds nice, but power does abhor a vacuum.

[@dashabv]

guy: russia feels cornered russia: extends across eleven time zones and shares land boundaries with fourteen countries

[@Drizzly0]

Animals back up until, they turn into a spec of sand?

[@azlanadil3646]

@@Drizzly0 Back up? What are you talking about? The last time Russia ceded land was the Brest Litovsk in 1917, over a century ago,

[@DrClock-il8ij]

Geopolitically numbnuts

[@sasotadic7032]

Yeah of course it feels cornered! They are the only country between the EU and North Korea so they dont have allot of space left

[@lustrazor44]

Ukraine isn’t a people to these people. It’s just land.

[@jascu4251]

Its not just that Ukraine isn't a people, neither is Paraguay, Iceland, Portugal, Ghana, or indeed Russia. There are no such things as citizens

[@adnanxm]

It doesn't have to be more than that when one chooses to be a brainless campist.

[@danielfrisk925]

Yeah, the Ukraine people apparently has no agency of their own according to Putin-simps like this one.

[@WordsAgainstTyranny]

Biden slipped up and said “we will fight until the last Ukrainian”

[@patchso]

It’s like he’s playing a computer game like Civilisation. It’s just all for his mental stimulation. He just doesn’t seem to exhibit any basic empathy for other humans. At least not ones who don’t live in ‘great powers’.

[@InfiniteDeckhand]

Notice how that guy keeps saying ''The Ukraine'' instead of just ''Ukraine''. That's pretty much a pro-Russian dogwhistle at this point.

[@Spar10Leonidas]

That's quite astonishing, because even the majority of tankies and other supporters of the Russia seem to have adapted to simply saying "Ukraine" since this war began (even though many of those types have outright accused Ukraine's supporters of being NATO agents for doing exactly that).

[@artemlyubchenko3022]

@@loomingkettle7833 It's kinda implying that Ukraine is a territory instead of a sovereign state, which I guess stems from the Soviet times, like how Russians use the preposition "на" instead of "в" for Ukraine, which is used for islands and territories, as opposed to sovereign states.

[@Oumegi]

@@artemlyubchenko3022 Eh, I dunno about Russian, but we (CZ) also use both Na and V geographically, and there are exceptions to this rule. I mention this, because Na Ukrajine is also used here, but also for Ivory coast, New Zealand and I am sure there are others.

[@madeline6951]

@@OumegiI mean, yeah, a lot of slav languages use в/на almost interchangeably, but it's undeniable that in russian "на украине" has become a dogwhistle. I've been mockingly thrown "на украине" before...

[@DJDiskmachine]

He probably just picked it up without realizing the connotation. 🤨

[@wc8246]

I find the argument that Ukraine joining NATO is/was a "red line" for Russia so entitled, your red line can't be in someone's else's country unless that's an agreement between those countries.

[@neurotika]

The arrogance of tankies is something else entirely.

[@zephyr8072]

And even if it is red line, the way to prevent that from happening is through diplomacy and trade. The notion that Russia has any right to dictate what it’s neighbours do is imperialism and even more of a reason for them to join NATO.

[@MyGraveDancer]

@@zephyr8072 Yeah, it's always fascinating how people are doing "let's do diplomacy and not war" completely ignoring the point that Russia didn't choose diplomacy either before 2014, or after.

[@zephyr8072]

@@MyGraveDancer Apparently anything that isn’t 100% capitulation to Russia’s demands is “pro-war”. But hey people said the same about not capitulating to Nazi Germany too. These people don’t even realise thwt their narrative is and always has been on the wrong side of history.

[@neurotika]

@@MyGraveDancer they don’t understand the ways in which the Russian government openly operates. If you trust them and they lie, they blame you. There is no unethical way to gain a power advantage. There is no good such thing as good faith engagement with them.

[@ThePigMensToes]

Would it be ok for NATO to invade Belarus due to them sharing borders and Belarus receiving economic and military aid from Russia?

[@Harsh-mg2em]

Being from a post soviet country, the question I'd ask these nutters is whether they think my country is controlled by America and we have no agency of our own (since they frame Nato expansion as America, rather than the population here choosing to join) or do they just think we are Russia's playground and they have the right to conduct genocides here.

[@furiousapplesack]

It truly is telling that this would be used for a justification. As always with pro-Russian types and right-wingers in general, it's all projection. Russia feels like it has the right to invade anything it neighbors, so Russia says NATO will invade Russia because it's on Russia's border.

[@ashfox7498]

No, you forgot that West Bad

[@ThePigMensToes]

Ahh yes, “west bad” that old bullet proof chestnut.

[@invinciblemic]

I mean, this guy probably doesn't even KNOW Belarus exists, let alone about it's geopolitics. Give him time tho.

[@eelvis1674]

"Just give them some sort of security assurance". This guy knows so little about Ukriane its honestly gross that he thinks he has the right to an opinion on the subject. He said this literally while talking about the deal which had Ukraine sign away their nukes. That deal had both The US and Russia agree to respect Ukrainian territorial integrity. And look where that "some sort of security assurance" got us. Nothing short of a direct NATO -article 5 style defensive pact with the US, UK etc will suffice to prevent Russian bloodlust.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Are you saying Russians are a primitive, backward people that will likely always be authoritarians who regularly try to annex their neighbors (as their history has never been anything but) and civilized societies should sanction them forever ala the DPRK? If so, I'm totally here for it.

[@utz2867]

Exactly! this guy is a clown show, who is he? He's confused

[@cass7448]

Right. Any guarantee from Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Barring a huge shift in Russian political thinking, they'll only halt their expansionist ambitions if they're MADE to.

[@patchso]

I like how he said: “My peace plan isn’t completely fleshed out yet”. Should I phone Putin and Zelensky and tell them to just wait a bit :-)

[@jaimierogers4388]

How does he not see that he's basically saying "I'm not pro bully. I just think that the best course is to give in to the bully." ?

[@ashfox7498]

He starts with his conclusion that must be wrong, and works backwards from there. If his arguments are wrong CLEARLY it's because he's just not explaining himself correctly yet is still totally correct.

[@danielfrisk925]

He is also just blaming the victim being bullied for being bullied in the first place.

[@danielfrisk925]

His "Great power thesis" is summarized as: - Might gives right - Lick all the boots - and "It is what it is. Thats the reality of it"

[@connormullin4547]

Unless it's the us then everything is bad no matter what. At least that's how these people interpret it.

[@RabdoInternetGuy]

N@zis adored "Might makes right" and Survival of the Fittest theories, that's why they loved Nietzsche, that's why they saw it as their right to conquer everything around them. And their theory worked for them until the Allies put it to work against them.

[@ThePigMensToes]

“I’m not a Russia simp” but I will ignore and justify every fascistic aspect of their regimes.

[@DD-qw4fz]

Thats not fascism, its "vanilla" Russian imperialism/colonialism just as it always has been. The idea this is some specific fascism that creeped into Russia with Putin is in a way Russian apologism itself...its has been a constant, in the Russian empire, USSR or Rus Federation...same shit different packaging. The fact Russia was part of the Allies in both world wars hugely skewed western pow on Russia an we ignored all of their crimes and "red flags" (pun not intended, lol).

[@bootyspoon4675]

"Marxist-Leninists" Stop Uncritically Regugitating Right-Wing Talking Points and Siding With Reactionary Authoritarians Challenge (Impossible)

[@lAljax]

This was a hard left talking point before it was right wing,

[@adnanxm]

Imagine having at best, a meme understanding of this conflict, and then having such loud opinions and implied demand of being taken seriously. Tankies coming hard for the Magas top clown crown.

[@richardarriaga6271]

Trump gave lethal aid to the Ukrainians, so until he wins office and cuts it off, he's ranking higher than the tankies right now.

[@patchso]

I can’t believe this guy was ever invited to any kind of ‘panel’, his complete lack of understanding of anything makes him come across like a child.

[@scotttokaryk3714]

“Wait? Was Euromaidan in 2014?” Christ almighty. If you aren’t certain about that, don’t come to the debate table.

[@kristophermyers1908]

When you don’t know anything specific about something but have opinions

[@captainChernihiv]

Vibes-based politics

[@-xirx-]

And don't listen to what's being said to you. And as dense as dishwater.

[@54tisfaction]

So the lesson is: Invading a LITTLE doesn't make you a bad country.

[@nerag7459]

If only if the US invaded part of Iraq

[@seanmac1793]

@@nerag7459 yeah we should have after the Gulf War just said that Kuwait is the 51st state apparently.

[@DrHotWarLove]

Hey, we’re off the hook then. We only took *part* of Mexico in the 1840s.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

​@@nerag7459 that was actually what happened in exchange for a ceasefire in 1991 (and Saddam constantly violated the terms during the 90s).

[@TheIvasyl]

Russia didn't invade a LITTLE, it failed to invade a BIG

[@kmoney890]

My favorite debate line is always “have you heard of…” only good things happen after someone says that

[@ashfox7498]

When they follow it up with "it's not a story the Jedi would have taught you..." tho

[@savis0]

'...alden's number?'

[@abdulmasaiev9024]

This particular instance of it was special though. "Have you heard of [ONE OF THE MOST WELL KNOWN AND MOST RIGHT WING THEORIES OF INTERNATIONAL POLITICS, JUSTIFYING ALL SORTS OF IMPERIALISM]?". It didn't come with a label though so the tankie here was like "oh yeah it's super cool, and it's exactly how I think of these things". Oh is it now. How curious. Fancy that.

[@patchso]

He’s so keen to sound intellectual it’s almost embarrassing to listen to. I can understand that, we’re all a bit like that when we’re young. It’s the total lack of respect or empathy that he shows to a nation undergoing such an unimaginable trauma, that upsets me.

[@pogo8050]

“Nato expansion” “What if China and Russia opened up military bases in Mexico” “Muh Azov battalion” Same handful of arguments still more than a year later. Do they never get tired of making the same argument over and over?

[@jloiben12]

7:50 This can’t be understated. This argument that “but everyone that invades Russia from the west can get right on top of Moscow pretty easily because of the terrain therefore Russia needs buffers” misses a very key event that happened in 1949 that makes that argument so incredibly stupid that the proponent should be sent to a mental institute

[@Gloomdrake]

Invading Russia: a historically easy thing to do...

[@Kropothead]

Right? Land invasions of Russia tend to go pretty fucking poorly. You can beat the men, but you can’t beat General Frost.

[@jloiben12]

@@Kropothead Not only that, but in 1949 they figured out how to weaponize a technology that can end the world. There is a reason why all the invasions people cope about are on the other side of 1949

[@sebastianlavallee706]

"I've read a lot about how the US funded 'certain' militias in Ukraine" "Yanukovych? Never heard of him" Maybe you should indeed go read up more...

[@lAljax]

"I`m not a russian simp" proceeds to simp for russia for a full hour of complete drivel.

[@BenYork-UBY]

"Ukraine should have had some other security assurance other than NATO" Wouldnt have mattered. Russia would have reacted with hostile aggression toward any ukranian treaty negotiation with europe. They DID aggress against any treaty negotiation with europe. Russias problem with ukraine wasnt NATO. If that were the case then russia would have been satisfied with just taking crimea as any prospect of joining NATO became impossible at that point. Russias problem was ukraine existing at all. Putin wanted ukriane back in russian borders and was actively working to make ukraine a puppet state. There was nothing ukraine could have done to appease him. There was no option for ukraine to stay out of the tug-of-war game between Russia and the rest of europe. They were the rope.

[@antonypastrikos7036]

Brilliantly put, idk why so many people forget the russian annexation of Crimea and how that would make a NATO membership impossible

[@arekhautaluoma4276]

jesus christ this guy is like a year+ behind the curve. well, actually more like 5+ with all the references. typical surface-level youtube learner.

[@alekzgavriel-russo7453]

Oh jesus it's that Omni dude, I watched that whole thing and I aged by like 30 years. He makes this point that Ukraine was 'effectively in NATO' and he states all these reasons...the thing is Russia also had a time where it fulfilled all these 'prerequisites', it did military drills with NATO, they did joint counter-terrorism operations, they even had a whole apparatus for Russia to communicate and facilitate cooperation with NATO. Additionally Finland and Sweden also had this relationship with NATO and I don't think anyone would argue that Finland, Sweden or Russia have never been 'effectively a part of NATO' (with the exception of Finland as it just joined NATO).

[@DissedRedEngie]

clarification for that last part. AS A RESPONSE TO RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. Sorry for the caps, just want to make sure tankies could read it.

[@Spar10Leonidas]

@@DissedRedEngie If you want the tankies to be able to read it, I strongly suggest you translate it to either German or Russian. You'll also need to whitewash it so that it doesn't "unfairly" portray the Russia as the aggressor in their "3-day military operation" to "de-Nazify" Ukraine with a neo-Nazi PMC on the frontline.

[@BenWard29]

"I don't know about that..." "I'd have to look into that..." "I'm not really sure- I'm not a policy maker..." "Yeah but maybe X happened or something..." This guy has a pretty strong opinion and has a take when he admits he knows very little about the whole situation.

[@eelvis1674]

Bro literally had to wikipedia facism. Stop talking about politics man, you're just embarrassing yourself...

[@Pistolita221]

Omni starts off by claiming the chicken came before the egg, this is IMPOSSIBLE. NATO aid to Ukraine started AS A RESULT of the Russian invasion, not the other way around. @11:28 He's talking about the denuclearization treaty Ukraine, Russia and either the US or NATO signed, saying that Russia will respect Ukraine's borders, as long as Ukraine doesn't join a western aligned military treats. This pact was voided in 2014, when Russia breached the contract by invading Crimea. Russia voided this pact, Ukraine is under no obligation to any nation to sign any treaty. And also, the Baltic states are closer to Moscow and St Petersburg, so from a PURELY strategic perspective, Ukraine is less important than the Baltic states. Economic production only matters for imperialism; if they're more concerned with Ukraine because they have a larger economy, then he's admitting Russia is interested in natural resource acquisition via imperialism. Or did I misunderstand Omni's point? Because NATO isn't a threat via the Baltic states military alone, neither is Ukraine. Great power theory is pre-internet, and therefor no longer applicable directly. Almost all of the systems have changed in VERY major ways. This is the issue with rapid progress. How do we manage it? Nobody knows, it's all barely 20 years old. The USA is rapidly losing influence in South America to China via BRICS bank. @42:34 LMAO, GOTTEM

[@ashfox7498]

Great Power theory doesn't even make sense when nukes enter the picture. North Korea has effectively secured immunity from invasion despite being totally surrounded by American allies and military bases just by building a nuke.

[@jloiben12]

Great Power Theory has always been an incomplete theory insofar as idiots like this guy treats it as a grand unified theory of country-level behavior

[@gingerlicious3500]

I wouldn't put much stock in BRICS.

[@Pistolita221]

@@gingerlicious3500 I think it's too soon to tell. There are a lot of nations that are trying to join.

[@MasterBot98]

@@Pistolita221 the more countries join the less effective that alliance becomes,cos they cannot agree on anything ever.

[@Lykosas]

31:49 Yanukovich at EU summit in Lithuania, 2013 cited pressure from Russia for his decision to flunk the EU deal.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

We also have his emails which show that he was Putin's towel boy

[@killer3000ad]

The number of times this guy would say, "Yeah i would have to read up/research that" whenever LonerBox got him with a counter-point, then he would go on to state another grossly incorrect or unfounded argument.

[@oddjam]

"I still disagree but I can't make a compelling argument without gathering some talking points first"

[@pogo8050]

@@oddjam” I have no arguments and I must disagree”

[@MrSpleenface]

Barely a minute in and he already felt the need to correct “America” to “NATO” and I feel like that’s a sign

[@MrSpleenface]

Honestly that was better than expected

[@mariusbojescu2293]

The war since 2014 is not a civil war, but a hybrid war of Russia

[@Iamawesomenorly]

calling it a civil war when there was close to no support for it *--* far from a majority even from the supposed "separatist regions" *--* would be laughable if it weren't so fucking sick

[@michellemoore7829]

Why does this person think he has the capability to discuss this topic when he admits that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[@jascu4251]

Knowing things is bourgeois

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

Pure ignorance combined with an ego and self image as some profound political thinker.

[@Kropothead]

Most informed tankie.

[@Smiley_McPants]

Simps for Russia the entire time ~"i don't simp for Russia"... ~"Russia even kind of has elections"

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Also NATO's military involvement in former Yugoslavia (Bosnia, Serbia) and Libya were under the direct commission of the UN with full support of the whole security Council including China and Russia. this bit of context always gets left out of progressive and marxist reollecitons of NATO and they forget that NATO was literally conscripted by the world authority and all super powers to conduct these operations

[@ansgar00]

Not Yugoslavia

[@mckenzie.latham91]

@@ansgar00 i meant to day Former Yugoslavia

[@gibberish131]

In regards to fascism, would the DNR/DPR attacks on local Roma populations during 2014/15 count?

[@6ig6pAT]

It makes my blood boil as a ukrainian listening to this dude. He unironically thinks that russia is a great power and it can do what it wants just because

[@patchso]

He seems hurt that Ukrainians don’t like him, whilst exhibiting a complete lack of respect for, or interest in, the people who are actually fighting this war. The number of times he talks about ‘us’ or ‘we’ or America is telling and when actually asked about the people at Maidan, he says that he doesn’t really care about numbers.

[@evolvedape3341]

This guy defending Russia is precisely what it sounds like when you have literally zero idea what you’re talking about.

[@comradefreedom8275]

International Relations Realists also think the only thing that matters is nation states. Stuff like the UN, and international companies don't matter.

[@jascu4251]

Its more than that, what happens INSIDE a nation state also doesnt matter. This is because individual agency isn't real. If individuals act they are manipulated by larger forces, whether that is people protesting outside the Russian embassy in Lisbon, or protesters in Iran.

[@comradefreedom8275]

@@jascu4251 Yeah, which is still kind of stupid.

[@jascu4251]

@@comradefreedom8275 Its a very two-dimensional way of looking at the world, but it has a certain level of seductiveness around it because its always the same and isn't messy. Everything is predictable, apart form the fact nation states keep doing things they weren't supposed to do according to the theory its possible leaders weren't well versed in realist theory and didn't understand what they were supposed to do. It is the leaders that are wrong, not the theory, something like that

[@sordid_]

i hate when people cant differentiate Cold War US foreign policy from Modern US foreign policy.

[@Lorenz1973]

Completely agree. And those people usually don’t acknowledge that the Soviets/ Russia had spies all over the West and messed with all kind Western government, supported revolutionary and terrorist organisations across many countries etc. So the Soviets/ Russia were incredibly ruthless as well… no angels at all…

[@TildaSwintonPlayingThomYorke]

Never thought I’d here Homer Simpson in a Russia Ukraine debate

[@furiousapplesack]

He's a mix of Homer and the original voice actor for Garfield.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

I need Nick Mullen doing a Homer impression for "Marge, have you heard of the Azov Battalion?" and "Marge, Lisa is wearing the Ukrainian flag and protesting in front of the Russian embassy again!".

[@tomlangford1999]

So called "Marxists" spouting liberal international relations theories of Realism is baffling to me

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

Yeah genuinely funny seeing communist using justifications that would see South America as a US puppet and by their logic that would be fine.

[@SS-xr7jf]

It’s just post hoc justification of tankie nonsense, so it makes sense that his position makes no sense.

[@invinciblemic]

Actually it's mostly liberals I've seen critiquing "realism" the most? It's mostly a hawkish, conservative even reactionary way of thinking.

[@abdulmasaiev9024]

@@invinciblemic Yeah for example look at Kraut, he's got a long form video essay doing exactly that.

[@Juel92]

Arguing that russia is justified in this due to great power realpolitik is self-defeating because by that logic the west should send even more weapons. Edit: and like 15 min later he argues that the US should never have sent weapons to Ukraine even though that's 100% within their great power purview by his worldview. This guy is such a tool.

[@Badbufon]

i am sympathizing with the invaders and people see me as evil, cryemoji

[@meltedWax169]

I like how he's saying that if russia draws a line and we should respect it.. Russia everytime we ask them to respect a boundary: Yeahhhh surrrreeeee we totally will *secretly tries to overthrow a government*

[@Juel92]

He really haven't things thought out. I'm at 12:07 and all of a sudden he switches it from "NATO is a threat" to "Ukraine is a bigger threat than the baltics and also has historical ties". I don't get why people with stuff this poorly thought out thinks it's a good idea to call in.

[@CrazyFikus]

15:50 "I have read articles NATO was doing military exercises with the Ukrainian military on Russia's borders." Can't find a source for this. The only NATO-Ukraine military exercises I can find were held after the Crimean annexation (gee I wonder why) and all were held near the Polish-Ukrainian border, most recent one being "Rapid-Trident 2021" in Yavoriv, about as far from the Russian border as you can be while still being in Ukraine. 20:00 "Russia is a great power." While there are no exact definitions, in general to be considered a great power a country needs to have a combination of a powerful economy, military and global influence. Russia has none of those things. Before the war you could've made a strong argument it was a middle power, but considering how sanctions screwed their economy, how terrible their military is, and how much standing they lost on the international stage, at the moment they are best described as a regional power. 42:50 "Ukraine should have kept the nukes." They weren't really in a position to even if they wanted. Maintaining a nuclear arsenal is expensive, Ukraine was (and still is) too poor to afford such a thing. They also didn't have the launch codes, those were in Moscow and Moscow wasn't sharing.

[@Blah64]

'They should get military defense assurances. Like NATO. But not NATO' 🤔

[@jumolotla]

how dose this guy have an opinion about Ukraine if he has not done any research on Ukraine, lonerbox can't even have a discussion because the other guy knows nothing outside of tanki talking points

[@ExcaliburX37]

Another Tankie fool

[@jascu4251]

I think the problem with having these cats on isn't really what they think, its that its always the exact same conversation. I think if you're going to have them on you have to think of ways at avoid that,. Don't try and counter them (they love that), different questions and more open (and non-leading) questions, ones that they're less practiced in, that Meersheimer never gave them the answer to. Try make them think by going places they didn't expect The really big thing to avoid is talking about the past (the answers are too rehearsed), talk about the future, especially questions where you're not sure about the answers either

[@finntastic3711]

Wow good job, you absolutely TROUNCED this goober. "I hate America but we must let Russia be evil!!"

[@alansnyder9]

Russia? A "great power"? Let's not get carried away. They're an "okay power", at best.

[@huskadog7748]

"There litterly on there border" wow i didn't think of this, that makes it soooo much better

[@SirWalterSansRien]

genuinely impressive the amount of command Loner had over this conversation, the amount of instant recall he had of every relevant fact, and the amount of patience he was able to display over this bumbling weasely flunkie. just like in the panel debate this guy is pure surface-level. Loner at least is so cordial that the dude was unable to start malding and acting like the manchild that he actually is...

[@arekhautaluoma4276]

Sorry for the spate of comments. I will say, this guy is woefully uninformed, but minor props to him for not putting up much of a fight, lol. He's very easily refuted and he just says "I haven't studied enough of that" at the VERY LEAST. Most people I've 'discussed' this with are more interested in calling me names. Sadly I assume he'll keep repeating banal arguments that you refuted with more detailed familiarity with events.

[@ashfox7498]

I don't think being honest and upfront absolves him of much, he's still gleefully trafficking in outright misinformation and blatantly imperialistic assumptions are totally baked into the cake of his world view. I'm just trying to imagine this same behavior towards a guy defending Mussolini's invasion of Africa and being willing to admit he hasn't researched the topic fully while explicitly endorsing the idea that white exploitation of Africa is totally justified.

[@arekhautaluoma4276]

@@ashfox7498 agreed. I'm just used to people being super antagonistic lol

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

Whilst being non combative is a pro, I take away all that based on the fact that he's decided to go into a debate with no idea what he's talking about, for me this is a toxic trait, doing no research or fact checking whilst pretending that he knows everything until he gets pushback. Imagine if lonerbox was less informed- then so much more misinformation would get through. And using the not studied enough excuse is just proof that he's a lazy ideologue.

[@arekhautaluoma4276]

@@frenchguitarguy1091 Well put, I appreciate your thoughts.

[@FoosNotes]

It’s hilarious how excited LB would get when he knew he put the other guy in a corner 😂 btw this is one of the calmest debates about this topic I’ve ever seen. Even though the guy was really frustrating, it was an overall enjoyable discussion.

[@Demos_Jeff]

I love lonerbox videos because him looking around always makes me think he’s using a machine he doesn’t fully understand and it’s quickly escalating beyond his control.

[@oldboy117]

MLs subscribing to 19th century foreign policies? classic

[@oldboy117]

"so like yeah is it fair that the countries that are being colonized don't get to get everything that they want in terms of their sovereignty? yes it sucks but it just kinda the way that it is"

[@Keldrath]

was this the guy who told ana maybe her dad would still be alive if the west didn't throw out peace talks last year in may? Or was that another guy cuz that shit was unreal

[@cameraman502]

That was the other bearded incel

[@gibberish131]

I maybe paraphrasing here... But, didn't the guy (talking with/debating loner box), talk about years or decades of NATO supporting Ukraine, kinda wish that dudes like this would come with more details... What kind of support does that mean? Where and when did the support take place? In addition, is that NATO itself? Or a country which has NATO membership?

[@furiousapplesack]

The debate panel he was on with Dylan Burns recently saw him utterly embarrassed by that exact sort of question. He likes to rely on vague nonsense because he's a mostly feels type of debater, and when asked for specifics he completely falls apart. Not that he was ever well put together to begin with.

[@ashfox7498]

He's trying to imply that the United States did a color revolution, a fake populist uprising instigated by the CIA, to oust the puppet dictator who basically confirmed he was a planted Putin shill after 2014; but also he knows that if he actually says that he's gonna get shredded by Loner asking "can you prove that?"

[@alekzgavriel-russo7453]

Exactly, he knew very little about Ukraine and its relationships with the west and Russia, hell he wasnt entirely sure when Euromaidan happened so Im hardly surprised he deals in vagueties.

[@ashfox7498]

@@alekzgavriel-russo7453 Funny, he has all the time in the world to carve every Kremlin "grievance" into his mind.

[@danielfrisk925]

It's kind of fun to see how massively different a person can be when to being charitable to one side compared to another and still try to sound like it's "both sides".

[@walldntv]

This guy felt really good hearted. It was nice hearing him bring up fair points that one might read coming from the Russian narrative and have you acknowledge them.

[@IHSchwingo]

Sadly no eye lasers, that's an auto loss.

[@PatheticApathetic]

I know I can trust this guy’s socio-political acumen. Anyone who refers to Euromaidan or the Maidan Revolution as “the Euromaidan thing” definitely knows what they’re talking about

[@Prometheus4096]

US support for Ukraine is going to end soon 'because we never support a country for very long'? What about South Korea and Taiwa? Israel? Those are indefinite. Once Trump, and his ties to Russia, go, GOP will be fully on board to support Ukraine in perpetuity.

[@patchso]

He also thinks America should stop arming Ukraine because it might stop arming Ukraine.

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

A ML type defending russia, how suprising

[@invinciblemic]

44:44 Give them security assurances.... Like Russia gave them numerous times (including that time when Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons) until 2014 when it decided to break them?

[@MasterBot98]

Haha,try better. Search 2003 Tuzla Island conflict.

[@invinciblemic]

@@MasterBot98 Sooo… a case of russia violating ukrainian borders? Yeah that sucks. What’s the argument here.

[@MasterBot98]

@@invinciblemic argument? None. Just neat trivia, how long it took Russians to start breaking the agreement.

[@orbitfold]

Hold on, hes gonna have to look that one up

[@unclebobboomergames]

If bringing up the cuba comparison didnt make it plain as day idk what else would

[@transgendermarx4694]

I feel like Lonerbox could be an actor for the character Paul Atreides from Dune

[@IlSinistero]

Sorry for off topic, I see a lot of political streamers leaving Twitch, is that because of their ad policy or does Twitch want to totally get rid of political content? Does anybody know?

[@ajiththomas2465]

The former.

[@utz2867]

Reagan would have supported Ukraine, idealism trying to help is better than ignoring their sphere of influence

[@Kleicomolo]

No one ever seems to want to argue that Russia ought to build up its industry and trade in such a way that other countries want to associate with them. It's always the case that Russia is entitled to the business of its neighbors and if they misstep they can expect to be invaded and razed. I can't really explain some of the poor foreign policy decisions made by America but at the very least it isn't currently attacking Venezuela or Cuba for being too chummy with "the enemy."

[@aspacelex]

There's nothing Marxist about supporting whatever is to any extent the US is on the other side of irrespective of any principles and outcomes.

[@conorryan3035]

Imagine going on a show and being as knowingly misinformed as that guy. I mean, at least nobody can doubt his confidence? He didn't seem to have the slightest clue what he was talking about.

[@OldSkoolWax]

Russia has a paranoia about invasions. They've had it for hundreds of years. The reason they didn't do much about Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia joining NATO is that they're small nations and not a great staging post for a mass invasion of armies. However, Ukraine and Belarus are very different. They're massive and have obvious invasion points and as such those 2 nations are the red line for Russia about ex-republics joining NATO.

[@dannykeuerleber7419]

RUSSIA HAS NUKES IT DOESN'T FUCKING NEED BUFFER STATES.

[@FireOccator]

The only purpose of debating a marxist is to show people how manipulative a marxist is.

[@cameraman502]

Wasn't this guy saying he wasnt well informed on this in that recent debate?

[@doc7000]

The problem with these Pro Russia people is that they are working from a conclusion which is that Russia is being 100% honest and they are only looking for information that suuports their conclusion. A great example is another one of them claiming to have an article where the German PM states that a potential treaty was so that NATO can train on Russia border and when they shared the article it stated no such thing. The sad thing is I don't think that person intentionally lied, though it just goes to show how useless their axioms are which drives me to approach the whole lot with an increased amount of skepticism. Also Russia has treatiest with nations in South America and the US isn't invading them as a result so this proves the claim that the caller is making to be false, they also love to make claims about influence in Ukraine without actually being able to back it up.

[@jascu4251]

I don't think thats it. I dont think they believe in the concept of honesty or dishonesty..Its a bit like Trump ("he's dishonest but he's honest about it" kind of thing). Russia doesnt exactly lie to people, its more complicated than that. It presents a selection of contradictory justifications and says "you can pick whichever of these you like" Dishonesty only makes sense if you think there is a truth, but if truth is just another competing narrative, then neither honesty nor dishonesty exist

[@alekzgavriel-russo7453]

Thing is if he was even remotely informed he could have actually backed up the 'US influence' claim, for example US led organizations and senators going over to give moral support to the protesters of Euromaidan...however this wouldn't be proof of a US backed coup or even any remote justification for Russia. Sometimes 'influence' is not always big evil bad yada yada.

[@waltonsmith7210]

The problem is big countries acting with impunity. Like my own. Maybe the whole global system needs to be reassessed. I don't think understanding Russian actions is a justification for them.

[@thevenbede767]

Heh. You think you've checkmated me when in fact it just makes my position true

[@b.6.7.f.h.]

The Mexico hypothetical doesn’t really make sense. A better analogy would be if the USSR had survived and the US fell apart, and Texas or California declared independence. And Mexico is already a part of the USSR’s NATO-equivalent, sending aid and arms to the seceeded states. I think the way traditional US defense and foreign policy opinion would frame that would be at least as hawkish as Russia.

[@orbitfold]

Have you even heard of homolodor?

[@michaelwankewycz6209]

Part of the deal Putin pushed on Ukraine (that Yanukovych agreed to) was that it wasn't a genocide, but a naturally occurring famine.

[@warmetalpacifist]

This thumbnail would be better with Papyrus font, smh

[@cageybee7221]

this guy has the most redditor voice ever

[@Juel92]

So he says he's basically a marxist-leninist but also that there are no such thing as bad countries and it's all a big power game? This dude doesn't seem like a bad dude but holy s does he needs to stop trying to think about politics. It's truly incoherent.

[@skyeplus]

Ukraine is a Great Power. They have stronger army than Russia.

[@eterista3868]

Lol I thought it would be Hakim

[@StangerStrange]

Heh. He says "Well, I dunno much about that" a bit too often to be credible.

[@danielfrisk925]

This is the ABC of victim blaming Ukraine for being violently aggressed upon by Russia. "Höhöh, They shouldnt have done anything that Russia would be angry about", "Maybe they should have thought about that before" Like trying to be a free, democratic, independent sovereign country with their own foreign policy politics? This guy really thinks Russia is entitled to decide what other countries alliances, diplomatic relations should be/not be. Geez, i wonder if this guy even hears himself talking.

[@rct3LP]

This guy Lonerbox debated is the definition of having a lot of opinion with very little knowleadge

[@Juel92]

Russia has introduced plenty of LGBTQ laws. It's not even close to being limited to chechnya.

[@shoeby9273]

marxist realist poggers

[@danielfrisk925]

*Victim blaming intensifies*

[@alanautpax6829]

Imagine saying that a country with the economy of Italy is a great power lmao, ruzzian premium copium.

[@j.646]

It's funny how he said nato in irak and that happend all becaus of bush and US if you didn't attack we didn't need to be in irak😂

[@DJDiskmachine]

44:47 Just like give them some security assurance or something. The brain on this guy.

[@patchso]

His peace plan isn’t fully fleshed out yet ! :-)

[@patchso]

I can forgive the ignorance, that’s understandable. It’s the utter arrogance that does my head in. There’s a total lack of interest in the hundreds of millions of people who live in Eastern Europe. A complete disregard for the agency of eastern Europeans and he admits he doesn’t even really care, for example, about the crowds in the Maidan. He thinks there weren’t many… probably.

[@TheCentristChad]

This guy is crazy drunk 🤣🤣

[@danielfrisk925]

This guy is so bad at pretending to not be a literal Putin-regime apologist, Ukraine victim blamer. Why does he even try?