Your Concord redesigns need redesigning

[@drakehound2244]

Lesson number 1 if you want gamers, don't make ugly things, same story as Pron Sites. they don't show ugly people, cause nobody wants to watch that. But most gamers are ugly, so what they play games to escape things, here look how much Eroge works. but that is perverted, yeah but that even sells better then making ugly stuff. Didn't one gacha game who was set for failure then turned 180 degree around showed you what gamers and people really want. Sex Sells simple as that or else all the pron sites would be gone. so all the females and males have to be super babes and hot model, yeah if you want to sell stuff yeah. you can toss one or two ugly character as long they are cool or overexcaggerated into the bunch. but almost all gamers wants nice stuff. but the people with screw loose. that is their problem not ours.

[@paoloiaccarino7447]

fair, but i dont think that's the point of the video, quite the opposite..

[@StarRain6]

you havent watched enough pron.

[@RosmarinusCruz]

Well yeah people just dont like ugly things so it makes sense but I don't think turning the characters into horny baits is enough to make people play it. If a game is still all style and no substance no one would still wanna play it, and if the reviews of the people who did play it are to be believed the it really didn't try to break any mold.

[@StarRain6]

@@RosmarinusCruz The art is fine its remind me of Earthworm Jim.

[@ranzu3138]

Pretty faces can sell, but you know what sells more? Good design. "Ugly" characters are never, ever, going to be a problem. Bad design is a problem.

[@JoeBurgerCinematicUniverse]

hear me out: we reduce the amount of characters to 9 and name them the scout, soldier, pyro, demoman, heavy, engineer, medic, sniper and spy, and we seperate the two "teams" into red and blue and they fight in a variety of "fortresses" too

[@enmaranadomusnavacrunatus3788]

jesus christ this is genius. can we get someone on this?

[@AriaCorvus]

and then we never release a sequel?!

[@JoeBurgerCinematicUniverse]

@ and then we let it rot under bots, cheaters and an increasingly angry playerbase!

[@pycckueopexu9043]

say that again

[@apenguinmaskedartistd3596]

Hol up… you might be onto something

[@SymbolCymbals2356]

Going for realism instead of seeing the Moebius style through was the big mistake imo. Like yeah some concept art to 3d model changes weren't great but the main issue is that it looks best stylized and that call is nobody's fault except the execs who wanted it that way

[@ZEBASS]

There is a videogame that's like a 1:1 copy of Moebius style, it's called Sable. Even if the copy is quite obvious, I think it looks cool and it definitely stands out among the billions of either photorealistic or Fortnite-like 3d worlds we are used to see nowadays. Considering Concord had a MASSIVE budget and a world class team of artists, they could have made a wonderful and unique twist on the colorful and stylized Moebius style. They would have found their own voice and appeal instead of being so directly compared to Overwatch and others. This was a long way of saying I completely agree with you :'D

[@HRZN_YT]

I agree. I was watching the concord cutscenes with my girlfriend and asking her opinion on the characters, and it hit me. Concord's entire shtick would have clicked instantly if the game was stylized like a cartoon or a comic. Making it hyper-realistic makes it feel weird.

[@AluRooftop]

Right? Like even though I think there's a LOT of issues with the designs the biggest problem is they reeeeally don't fit the environment. I can super see a world where they turned into something pretty good looking just from the maps being weirder and the lighting being less cookie cutter PBR realism.

[@bannedmann4469]

Stop blaming every little thing on execs. You’re assuming they even tried stuff other than realism. Are you new to gaming, cause we’ve had plenty of success with heavily stylized games.

[@AluRooftop]

@@bannedmann4469 From the concord cinematic trailer I am very confident that doing "broader appeal sci-fi" was a conscious executive decision. Yes execs often take more blame than warranted but that's the nature of having a large team making a single _product_. Most of the blame for everything falls on executives because they have that responsibility, even if the responsibility is dealing with someone else's screw up. In theory that's why they get paid so much.

[@quinnlucas6858]

It's wild to me that the art style is supposed to be Moebius and 1950s retro sci-fi. I am obsessed with that art style and have spent so much time looking into character design and art in that theme for my own game. It did not even occur to me that Concord was going for that until watching this video.

[@zeppie_]

That shows you just how much they watered down the style in favour of boilerplate AAA game aesthetics

[@Gloomdrake]

@@zeppie_by trying to “play it safe,” they unwittingly took a massive risk that didn’t pay off at all

[@donventura2116]

I definitely see the retro sci fi, but I never picked up on the Moebius influence.

[@funguy398]

Same, how can they drop the ball so hard?

[@pablovonpablo2590]

Not very coherent. I appreciate some of the points, but it's hard to follow with how often you cut off, go on non sequiturs, etc

[@Shinesart]

I watched Pikat redraw one of the character of concord without changing anything but the art style. It was comic or anime like style similar to Hi Rush. And it doesn't look bad. If they want to really go stylized like Mobius, they should've go all the way instead of realistic but still, their pose and some elements should be change even in Pikat redraw she had to change the pose and some color, body proportion and elements to look good.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

I have been saying this a lot too that Moebius' artstyle, his color choices and design of clothes and shapes only works with bold lines and illustrations. The moment you translate it out of it, it becomes unappealing and awkward

[@torbjornkallstrom2316]

​@@jesustyronechrist2330Leelo from the Fifth Element disagrees with you

[@jennycatmystique7139]

I also watched that video, and while the art style change was a major component, pikat DID change the design. She even admitted she ended up making more changes than she meant to- like the glasses, the entire shape of the coat, the pants, and the hair to a point was resized to fit the proportions more. Which to me goes to show there were execution issues in the designs more than any overall unsalvageable poison like people are saying. So many just need a few shape or color tweaks to at minimum be pretty decent. That video kind of annoyed me a bit with the “you are free to critique but you need to reframe your mind set. I’ll prove the designs are good by just drawing one in a different style!” Then proceeded to completely alter the entire silhouette, while still saying it was just the style. No shade to pikat at all, that channel has done wonders for helping me learn art and character design, it was just a weird video to make where the entire point was disproven IN the video itself.

[@afluka]

​@jesustyronechrist2330 exactly. Perhaps cell-shading could've helped to reinforce some of those lines, but it would most likely still need new shaders and tech to pull off something at all representative of the 2D source in 3D, and in motion at that. As it is, the 3D models look like base-level cosplays.

[@rheawelsh4142]

​@@torbjornkallstrom2316Honestly I'd say the fifth element more defines its own aesthetic around being vaguely unappealing and awkward tbh

[@chad4858]

A recent guilty pleassure has been sharing concord redesigns that are even worse than the originals with my friends

[@vicc19]

Kinda wish there was a video with that 😅

[@jaredhansen2521]

@@vicc19I’d watch that lol

[@diemes5463]

Only difference is that the redesigns were done for free in a short span of time, the people who worked on Concord were paid for 8 years, but hey, enjoy making fun of people's pastimes on the Internet to defend your favorite corporation!

[@holaos8154]

The worst part is that some of the redesigns of female characters just make them prettier and put them in sexy outfits, and people still call that good design

[@mitkoogrozev]

@@diemes5463 Nobody is defending any corporations. It's a design vs design comparison. Whether they were done by a giant corporation or by a random person in their free time, that has no bearing in analyzing the designs as such. If your view of the design quality is influenced by who did them, then you are not analyzing the designs as such. Like another commenter mentioned some 'redesigns' are just making the female characters more attractive, but their armor/clothes don't look that interesting or even worse. And they also lack the things mentioned in this video.

[@gorxela8982]

You know, all of the discussion aside, I find Concord's design fascinating in particular because it feels like they were on the cusp of something really interesting and for some reason they blew it. Like, why isn't the game like this 11:29 or this 11:13 So much potential, squandered.

[@faiir]

Realistic shading screwed them up a lot.

[@BillyBlaze6907]

Original or interesting, it doesn’t matter - most gamers still don’t want to impersonate an obese black woman, an androgynous obese boy or an ugly trans woman with weird fashion. Call me what you want, but that’s the truth. Characters don’t need to be overly sexualized to be appealing, but they need to be something gamers want to impersonate.

[@nattnadia]

The problem is the design didn't blend with the environment of the game, I see in concept art they use a general color for each region like red, orange, or green, while in the game it shows regular futuristic settings. And also it's the matter of stylization, why use shiny plastic rendering when the character design relly more on flat color and hard shadow. It can be that it was a clash of idea from the developer with a bunch of marketing analytics and shareholder. They want it to be unique yet also play it safe and generic so it's more marketable.

[@qaztim11]

Cell shaded concord would go hard

[@dontseemyprofilepic3157]

@@qaztim11it already officially exists (just not in the form of a game), search “Concord Freegunner Adventures” They’re a bunch of official cel-shaded short films of the Concord characters.

[@ViviButter]

I noticed that too!! The settings were so lame compared to the concept art.

[@dontseemyprofilepic3157]

@@qaztim11 you can find official cel-shaded Concord animations by searching “Concord Freegunner Adventures”.

[@dontseemyprofilepic3157]

@@qaztim11 you can find official cel-shaded Concord animations by searching “Concord Freegunner Adventures”.

[@Mewzuw]

I saw some of the concept art done by the artists and the characters looked absolutelly GORGEOUS (If you can find, look at star child early concepts), I don't know what happened when deciding the final designs of the characters that they ended up looking so terrible.

[@ARStudios2000]

Where can I find early dtat child concept art? I've been trying to find concept art for the characters and I've had a hard time finding them

[@kindleddawn]

@@ARStudios2000 you can find some on art station as the artists recently started posting them, Amanda Kiefer is one of them you can search but just put in concord in artstation and have a look around

[@Alvara9]

@@ARStudios2000 Artstation

[@ARStudios2000]

@@Alvara9 thanks!

[@ProxyDoug]

I believe the concept is by Vinod Rams, his head design was much more interesting, and instead of just turning into a Twilight vampire, he would just tank the bullets and get a bunch of holes on him.

[@chromybuilds]

I didn't know the design was based on Jean Giraud's art, that makes the character designs, make a ton more sense! I wish they made that more clear in the advertisements or developer stuff of the game.

[@OndaPiloto]

Because it is badly done. Game Sable did the same and no one had to advertise it because you open the game and you see it

[@ajbXYZcool]

Maybe if it was more stylized it would carry that same kind of character through, when instead, at least for me, it was trying to be Guardians of the Galaxy. Movie Marvel. Which evokes a different design esthetic to me that it was clashing with.

[@roberth.1201]

Wait the characters were based on Moebius work?! Jesus Christ! 😂

[@Huntertje13]

I think this is the real issue. The reason the design was "bad" is because nobody understood how to intrepret the designs.

[@defaulted9485]

You don't see the intricate accessories and overdetails contrasted with bland neutral spaces for the eye that Jean Giraud uses. It makes his work appealing but not overwhelming. Its like the art team or execs only see neon colors and choke on happy chemicals before calling it a day.

[@StylerGear]

2:10 I don't play Overwatch so I'm not gonna lie, I actually didn't know Lúcio was a healer until this video, I assumed he was a mobility/scout DPS that would *just* flank the opposing team with blasting shockwaves and little else. Though I suppose in hindsight it does make sense for music motif to play like "bard" support.

[@OndaPiloto]

Because Lucio is not a main healer lmao. He is exactly that, mobility, gives the entire team mobility, in many teams the Lucio player gives the call outs, and there was a time when OW KZbin was filled with Lucio main videos playing as dps and booping people 😂

[@furyberserk]

He doesn't look that dps either.

[@DoctorPhileasFragg]

@@OndaPiloto In fact they nerfed his healing at one point to push him more into this direction.

[@OndaPiloto]

@@DoctorPhileasFragg I still remember the days you could do with zen + Lucio, even when both are supposed to be utility 😂

[@maninblack3410]

That’s because his idea of what “instant readability” is was slightly off. The concept isn’t that you’re supposed to understand immediately what a character’s function is based off their design, though I’m sure a lot of intention went into that separately, but the main purpose is to be able to tell instantly what that character you caught a small glimpse of halfway across the map is. There’s an insane amount of videos documenting this concept specifically with overwatch and there is a reason they succeeded where they did and why animators/designers praised them.

[@LEvpic161]

Really good analysis of concord and design principles and philosophy that we take for granted

[@ChromaMoma]

Thank you :)

[@luckyboy5nu]

the thanos being soft because his character has circles is such a fucking funny and accurate representation of your point and how these concord redesign videos explain things lmao

[@bannedmann4469]

No it’s not, it’s the deceptive part of his character. He’s a dad and it’s emphasized the whole time. Cloud is the reverse of that, someone who’s trying to be threatening and was literally modified to be so. It’s a bit of a spoiler, but there is a twist there. I don’t think he played it.

[@luckyboy5nu]

@@bannedmann4469 Thanos's design works very well for what his character is trying to communicate indeed, it's all about context

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

Actually Thanos' design is indeed safe, he's designed as a round dad, so it's rootable and understandable, which makes his horrible acts more terrifying as how does a kind man do such terrific thing

[@johnrumouro9098]

@@bannedmann4469 But the point of the video is that you need to look at the context of the work instead of just going "sharp angles threat round angles dad". With context, those two having a twist makes sense, which is what this video is all about.

[@Frontline_view_kaiser]

​@@johnrumouro9098What context did the redesigners miss about the terrible shape choices in Concord then?

[@Trigamer64]

all of this discourse is incredibly new to me. I didn't know people thought it was design related lmao. I thought it was pretty obvious it was cus the game was a paid brand new IP in a genre landscape where f2p is king.

[@leo5907]

he is lying, everyone know if was about the price but when you see a video about the DESING, it would be obiusly only about the desings

[@athamicis]

Most people that I’ve seen say “the designs were bad enough but then they put a price tag in it to make sure it will never survive”

[@Rodri34451]

Concord's failure was a result of a myriad of mistakes. Designs are just one of them.

[@Frontline_view_kaiser]

It had nothing to do with the price. Concord could not get a player base when it was in open beta. People understood that it was an overwatch clone, saw the designs and dropped it. If you think that designs were not a makor issue, you're tripping

[@niko-zx1ku]

8:24 It's crazy how I think of blue potions as health items because I've played Doom so much. You are so right on how playing games for a long time influences someones associations.

[@paniiziima]

pfp checks out

[@GraveUypo]

my notification sound on my phone has been the doom multiplayer item respawn item for so long that i freak out when playing doom multiplayer now lol. it used to be the opposite when i had just changed: "wtf is spawning next to me?"

[@niko-zx1ku]

@@GraveUypo HAHAHA, I had something similar but with super mario 64 slider song. I used to have it as an alarm in my phone, it was crazy loud and it traumatized me so bad that every time I hear this music I feel stressed out.

[@Virakt]

I think the problem here is with the lighting and shaders. These designs look so good in cell shaded style. It might be a producers call to make realistic 3d or whatever.

[@luskart]

Yeah, these designs are made for a foggy, dreamy sci-fi world, not hyper realism. In concept, they're great designs.

[@WRITINGQUILL-i4x]

Also basic artists stylization would have helped looking at the concept art they literally took all the characters flare ​@@luskart

[@LyubomirIko]

The situation here is like the design of the Sonic (the movie) They hit the uncanny valley. Those don't even look like designs inspired from Moebius, except are indeed eccentric, but in some clinically sharp way. Like, not really understanding why people like Moebius, but trying to copy the eccentricity on purpose. Cell shaded style could indeed help, but also if they try to achieve the atmosphere from the Moebius universe.

[@user-xr4nw3pt2v]

fr i feel like people underestimate how much of an impact art style has on character design

[@ashmintyrina]

so true

[@tramnguyen-gq1ez]

Thank you, I thought I was crazy about feeling weird with those videos. They focused on physical appeal and did not acknowledge the philosophy of the development. Which is wild and quite disappointed

[@jeffmorris5802]

Those videos are correct though. I can't believe I have to say this but - Sex Sells. To both men AND women. A bunch of weird nerds decided they didn't like that reality - this thread included - but it's still just as true as it's ever been.

[@dashiellgillingham4579]

I make it a habit to turn off this app if it ever starts showing me ragebait, like the Concord deviants these last couple months. My first exposure to it's art style was going through people's portfolios on artstation, and happening to see a bunch of great fishing spaceship designs. I slowly went back through the general collection they were a part of, and noticed that all of it was good to great, and basically all of that work made it to 3D modeling. I'm a big fan of retro stuff like it, have been since Fallout 4's Boston. Concord looks, to me, like a great collection of cohesive art pieces, that dramatube plastered onto an idiot ball in their long-term efforts to make people slightly more blind.

[@chungo.]

​@@jeffmorris5802 true! minecraft is the pinnacle of sexual appeal

[@jeffmorris5802]

@chungo. You understand saying "sex sells" isn't the same thing as saying "sex is required", right?

[@chungo.]

@@jeffmorris5802 my comment wasn't said in jest, friend 😉

[@sp47208AJ]

Thank you!! This is the best take I've seen on Concord so far, so many other redesigns are just turning it into overwatch/apex/etc without ever considering what Concord was going for. It's sad to see those videos get so much attention/agreement. Also so many people not understanding the process and that regardless of the artists working on it ultimately its up to management to decide how far artists are able to push etc.

[@bannedmann4469]

You’re forgetting that Concord was going for being another Overwatch and Apex etc.. it’s a carbon copy hero shooter. Leaving this context out is dishonest.

[@exomoneylabel]

@@bannedmann4469 its a tac shooter with hero elements moreso than a hero shooter hence the focus on more retro futurist cyber militant designs for a lot of the characters. The gameplay and kit is more important than what YOU believe the game should be

[@BombaJead]

Thanks for the nuanced take on character design.

[@vuivraalbastra]

@@bannedmann4469 Just because it's in the same genre as Overwatch or Apex doesn't mean that it should look the same. You're not adding context by saying this, quite the opposite. Paladins is also in the same genre and goes into a different direction with the design, more cartoonish and fantasy powered compered to your examples, and it works out for them. Overwatch itself didn't try to copy the direction of TF2 and has its own identity.

[@GlaDos321]

When I think of hero shooter, the last thing I think of is the work of Moebius. Moebius is visually striking due to not just character design, but color theory, lighting, and how the characters fit into the setting. Just because the art is good does not mean the initial execution was flawed from the start. If you want to make a game based on Moebius, make a 2D, stylized RPG. Or at least apply some stylization to the lighting and color, like Arcane, Dishonored, or the spider-verse films. applying Moebius to a Hero FPS with hyper realistic faces and realistic lighitng is the exact opposite of Moebius's work.

[@leo5907]

THIS gamers DO NOT GIVE A FCK about context or intentiont they want to play a game

[@nerdstorma8427]

Very well said. 👏

[@gentlemanscarecrow5987]

I would argue that Lucio and Ana from Overwatch don't look like healers at all. Lucio has roller scates and a gun with speakers on it. What does that communicate? Probably that he moves fast and has some kind of sound related ability. There is nothing besides maybe his green color scheme that says "healer". With Ana, she just looks like a sniper. She has a militaristic outfit, a long rifle, and some orbs on a bandolier with yellow energy in them, which could be anything.

[@Sylhux]

That's why context matters like he said in the video. Based on concept arts alone sure, it can be ambiguous. But in-game I do think it was well done. When I click on Ana on the hero selection screen, the whole thing already screams battle medic to me, with the way her syringe is emphasized, the blue and white color scheme of the rifle and the overall aura. Also yellow energy in gaming tends to be healing/support abilities.

[@OndaPiloto]

And Lucio is exactly that, doesn’t have much healer output because his main skill is speed and he uses sound to boop enemies away. He is support. Ana is precisely that, a sniper who after a close call decided to switch bullets for more support ammo. The designs in OW are a combination of lore + function, not just function. The yellow is the healing, because in OW healing is represented by yellow. And this is why in this video Moma shows he doesn’t know what he is talking about because OW took a series of decisions in character design that were not common at the time and made it work, but he uses it to justify really bad game design from another game. Like using why an A exam didn’t get A+ to justify another C exam

[@gentlemanscarecrow5987]

@OndaPiloto and @Sylhux Since you're both making similar arguments, I'll respond to both of you. I'm not arguing that Lucio and Ana are bad character designs, I just think they don't convey as much as people say they do. What I'm trying to do is pretend I know nothing about the game, and that I've never seen the characters before. I think it's fair to say that someone like Mercy makes it super obvious what she does by looking at her, but Lucio and Ana are on the more subtle end. For all I know, Lucio could be a DPS character who runs around blasting people with soundwaves (which he sort of does do), but I can't tell that his main function is support just by looking at him. Ana's rifle looks kinda like a tranquilizer gun, so that's something, but the yellow grenades, which you both are keen to point out is obviously healing if you play Overwatch, could be some sort of yellow, damaging energy, it could be a buff of some kind for allies, it could be gatorade, but I don't think the association of yellow = healing is as common as you might think. Also her blue and white outfit doesn't really say "healer" to me. What about Soldier 76? He's blue and white, but he's DPS. He looks like a mean mercenary dude, but again you wouldn't know that he could shoot rockets and heal his teammates by just looking at him. Sometimes healing is red (like in Skyrim), sometimes healing is green (like in Resident Evil), sometimes healing is blue (like in Doom), and sometimes healing is yellow, but I can't think of many games besides Overwatch where healing is yellow. Like you said, it's contextually dependent. So my point is that between the factors of time and familiarity with the game (we've been playing and seeing these characters all over the place since 2016), and ALSO some really rock solid character design, you and I know exactly who these characters are and what they do. What you can't say is that all the information is instantly obvious the moment you see a character. It's not fair to say that when the moment you first saw the character was probably 8 years ago. Also I'm of the opinion that there is more than one good philosophy for character design. People tend to say that simplicity is king, but even Overwatch's character designs are undisputably very, very detailed. Now, their detail work is very intelligent, but people actually like details, as long as they're interesting. I think more games should be permitted to deviate from the popular approach to character design. The discourse around Concord has people throwing around a lot of absolutes, like the designs are just self-evidently terrible, but most people have only taken a cursory glance at the characters, and have no context (which you both just said is important). I think people aren't being fair, and that they never gave a game with a decidedly weirder vibe than Overwatch the chance to grow on them, because it was pre-judged and then judged post-mortem. Do I think the designs in Concord are fine? Yes. Do I think the concept art is 10 times better? Yes. Do I think they're as good as Overwatch's designs? No. Does every game need to follow Overwatch's approach to character design? I don't think so.

[@OndaPiloto]

@@gentlemanscarecrow5987 I don’t have time to read all the message, but in the comments you have people saying “I would have guess Lucio was a speedy character not a healer” from people that to me don’t seem to know the game

[@HOUROFPOW3R]

Amusingly (and correctly) a lot of people complained about legibility of overwatch on release, but so much time has passed people have forgotten. Overwatch has a lot of tall skinny women with similar silhouettes that genuinely affects legibility at a distance.

[@PiperDrumsOfficial]

This was so cathartic to watch. I was going crazy thinking seeing people harp on the designs so much. Absolutely right that “it’s a miracle this got made at all”

[@llanfairpwlgwyngyll7331]

this was seriously the most annoyingly stupid thing to gather the focused hatred of hundreds of thousands

[@jamespateluniversity]

A lot of the redesign artists try to make something look good on a page, in a vacuum using general principles. Which on its face seems like what an artist is supposed to do, but as you've said, it misses the greater context of what the final product is trying to achieve as a whole. The whole point of having fundamentals to design is to offer us a tool-box to then make selective decisions to suit the experiences we design for, not a dogma with which every box must be checked. While I'm not trying to claim that the concord designs were successful, but they deserve to be fairly analyzed.

[@diemes5463]

They have been, the market has spoken. Also Sungrand has a great analysis on Concord

[@jamespateluniversity]

@@diemes5463 There's a difference between disliking a product and understanding where it's at fault, and why. That's the videos point, to critique the analysis of others and what they miss. All the market has spoken for is that the game was a failure, that does not mean whatever criticism we can allege against it is valid. I've watched the Sungrand analysis and felt it was quite amateur, but everyone's welcome to an opinion.

[@furyberserk]

1:11 Both of your answers are bs from what I've seen. I've heard no one talk about goon at all. The second one, I've also never heard. The designs were just unappealing which is why they were bad. And they were from an assumed standpoint because couldn't guess the characters, which is bad from the making your audience feel stupid area.

[@jamespateluniversity]

​@@furyberserk I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or the video ( This isn't my video), but I've personally seen both those types of redesigns here on youtube. Criticalart_64 - Concord Character redesigned (430K views, definitely falls into the "goon" category for the female designs) Tyler Edlin - Critical Design flaws that ruined Concord ( 255K views, compares primarily to overwatch) Sungrand studios - Pro Character Designer Explains Concord VS Overwatch Characters (400K views, literally the title) Just those three are over a million views cumulative, and there are a ton of smaller channels that essentially follow the same logic. Totally understandable if you didn't encounter any of them ( I just got recommended them randomly by the algorithm), but they're certainly popular talking points. When the maker of this video refers to the "goon" topic, I believe it's just a crude summary of all the people that confuse appeal with sex-appeal and want every character to be like eve from stellar-blade.

[@DoctorPhileasFragg]

@@jamespateluniversity Was Criticalart_64 explicitly saying we can't "goon" to the Concord designs, or was that just the impression you, personally, got from the artist's redesigns?

[@Awksi]

It feels like no one understands the rule of cool anymore

[@athamicis]

I appreciate seeing more discussion around the concord designs swinging back against the first wave of videos. Here’s actual paragraphs of my own contributions to the discussion: I for one definitely still found the designs ugly regardless of the discourse around the game, and I would attribute this to the uncanniness of their animation and facial construction, and color grading. I feel like you’re undervaluing the concept of readability here: I’m pretty sure everyone making that argument was assuming an audience who understands the language of videogames (a large audience which probably everyone who saw the trailers belong to), so it’s sort of a strawman to bring up the typical mom in her 30s-40s, who has more important things to do than even look at videogames. And it’s so unusual to say that this game specifically should either communicate to every layman, or shouldn’t bother communicating to anyone at all. Even if unsaid, I’m sure we all realize a major reason for the designs having backlash is that a large number of outspoken players see it as “social-justice coded”, and the mere thought of that drives them into an irrational frenzy. Of course, I’m NOT making the case that this is necessarily a failing if the design, but I would say this reaction annoying anti-progressivism gamers is the main reason the conversation has gotten so big. It’s probably for the best that you didn’t get into this, but the thing that annoys me the most about the redesign videos is that they just show skin and tits and say “fixed!” And then when you ask how it’s better everyone just goes “Uhmmm…sex SELLS, idiot. Everything should have SEX, literally every game SELLS because SEXY”, often dropping their own criteria in favor of giving a woman tits. I’m not sure why people seem to think that there is a conspiracy to force them to accept unattractive characters, but it is very sad to see that in some ways (though not all), the stigma of gaming has become even worse over the course of the last decade, thanks to people who are proving the stereotype right by whining about this.

[@jewellier]

It baffles me that so many people think that giving female characters deep cleavages and conventionally attractive faces (and these being the only changes that are introduced) somehow make the designs good. There are lots of great female character designs in video games that are not overly sexualized, even in Overwatch you'know. A character being sexy doesn't automatically make them a better design. Each character has their own story, a narrative purpose, and should at least be readable in the in-game surroundings - these are the core aspects that should be redesigned, not the fact that characters have no overt booba.

[@mr.crowjo_3933]

But why not make attractive faces

[@Kitsune2Megafan1086]

​@@mr.crowjo_3933Some people just dont want too.

[@skittlz111]

Nobody wants ugly female characters

[@jucie4024]

Its makes them good if you are not a fat woman or a sissy fag

[@bananawithaknife]

If you watch the character trailers for concord you'll know there isn't much in the writing of the characters either.

[@joolian4763]

a good example for how little design can matter in a games success is Gigantic. Gigantic is a Moba-esque 3rd person hero shooter with great character designs and fun art direction, but its still a game trying to compete against the likes of League of legends and overwatch. sometimes all it takes for something to fail is a few bad decisions in spite of how beautiful it may be.

[@DoctorPhileasFragg]

and it still didn't fail as hard and fast as Concord. You're not making an equal comparison.

[@blitzfyre669]

​@@DoctorPhileasFragg i don't see how fast it failing has to do with anything. It's not really a comparison. It's an affirmation of one of the videos points, despite gigantic's GOOD designs and art style, its incredibly stupid hard to compete with something as monolithic as others in its genre like league of legends. Especially at an upfront price like gigantic (to my knowledge) has.

[@2fersttwo]

@@DoctorPhileasFragg and have you heard about Gugantic? no?

[@Noobgalaxies]

Ironically, one of the artists who worked on designing Concord characters, Vinod Rams, was a main character designer in Gigantic Their designs for the Concord characters look dramatically different from the final product and imo so much better

[@nahuel3433]

I think that in no small part had to do with very little marketing. Something Concord had in stupid ammounts considering they are even getting an episode of Secret level. Even when Gigantic was comming out I only heard about it from some specific youtubers. You obviously will have a hard time making an audience if the potential audience doesn't know you exist

[@MicheleMontini]

I totally agree with you. I've seen sooo many bad and generic redesigns with willfully wrong design directions, and I always find myself wondering if I'm wrong about how I think about concept art, since so many other concept artists are going toward the basic academic concepts only, not thinking about the context of what the end product should look like. There's a reason a concept artist should be more of a designer, while lead artists and art directors still exist. This whole Concord thing has made me rethink a bit on how I teach concept art, since I've been doing the same thing with my students about the basics (shapes, colors and meaning) and I think a more brief and style oriented approach should be taken, and artists should start taking in consideration there's an art direction that needs to be taken in account, and without knowing the basics about that everything else won't come together. I was just amazed by seeing how many of the redesigns missed the base style landmark (retro 80's sci-fi) and kept on picturing the same modern stylized silhouettes and shapes.

[@lennoxmarchioly3089]

really good comment, i will think about "style landmark" forever

[@TheDanteBoots]

Most redesignes have been horrific. And completely lack creativity and understanding of the original influences and setting. It's as if they're never seen retro scifi before. This is the best take on the topic to date, ty.

[@Minority119]

Let alone missing the point How many redesigns out there take the trans chick in the red coat and redesign her as cis because "she kinda looked manly"

[@radio_shapka]

Finally someone on this site speaks sensible things about concord's design, thank you.

[@talluna8619]

FINALLY a good take on this whole thing, ppl are so quick to blame the people who arguably have the least control over the final product

[@ARStudios2000]

Honestly I've seen TONS of people going at the executives and the higher ups rather than the artists themselves. At least from what I've seen. That's another thing about the whole thing; it's like the thing what each other has seen a lot is right contradicting what the other has seen. Like how Chroma says one of the most recurring complaints he heard was how people can't "jork off" to the designs when of all the times I've seen these designs critiqued, I've never heard of that statement once.

[@Notabear6810]

The artist didn't exactly respond to the public in the best way

[@DoctorPhileasFragg]

@@Notabear6810 That's true, the lead character artist vehemently defended the results - therefore either making himself a part of the crime at best, or revealing his total control over this aspect at worst.

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

​@@DoctorPhileasFragg Exactly people ALWAYS wanna blame the execs but the artists signed on in the end and doubled down on the designs that were approved. They attacked people and literally called them UNtalented HACKS. And you want me to fell SORRY for them!? Nice joke😂 Although it wasnt ALL of them that did its just sad the main voice happened to be the creative director

[@trumanhalladay7167]

This is the best and most authentic Concord redesign video I have seen so far. It’s honest, critical and technical. Well done. Thanks for publishing

[@HOUROFPOW3R]

Honestly glad to see someone bringing this up. It was mindblowing how so many artists out there 'fixing' the designs didn't recognise the influences the game was drawing on. My first thought on the failures of the art style was mostly on the actual engine itself and how the world and characters are rendered in-game. An undersold aspect, honestly. And I'm glad you mention the importance of time. People talk big game about things like 'simplicity in logos = good' but nah it's just whatever is trendy and associated with successful brands. Could be complicated as hell just as much, makes no difference in the end. We're pattern recognition machines

[@chok1169]

If the influence was Mobeus they certainly landed the designs, but... Who really cares about that? Artists certainly do, but consumers? Did they really think that those type of designs would be appealing to the general masses? I refuse to accept that and I still believe that the concept artists got fucked over because of the higher ups pointing to the worst of the designs.

[@HOUROFPOW3R]

@@chok1169 Yeah those designs 100% have acceptable mass appeal, though certainly needing some tweaking. I mean even dirty bomb was a game with no surface level appeal but I actually quite liked its character design (the writing & va didn't hurt) for its first so many years of life and the game did quite well for itself. I do think a big element of the financial success of the project comes down to putting it at a $40 price tag when they don't have the respect and brand recognition that someone like Blizzard or Valve would have (and even they both have conceded to the importance of the f2p market) And the thing that failed with the art style is merely the undercommitment and lack of confidence, something not uncommon in development hell games

[@qaztim11]

@@chok1169 Yes, people would like a lot more of these designs if the aesthetic was better executed. Make them more cartoony, and stylized, exagerate the characters more, go for a cell shaded aesthetic to lean into the moebius style more. By going with hyper realism in most aspects of the characters and design they made the entire thing less appealing

[@chok1169]

​@@HOUROFPOW3R Give me the name of a popular game that has those types of designs and I will believe you. Because the whole roster of Concord was really unappealing except maybe one or two. If the game has a good rooster and is fun to play most people don't care about putting 40 bucks to play it. So I don't think the price tag was the reason for its downfall. Finally, what do you mean with "lack of confidence"? I think they went really deep with the modeus brief. Wanna know your opinion.

[@yenilikci5682]

Concord only has 2 designs that look anywhere near appealing. And I don't mean sxually. And then there's the weird obsession with gut imagery which is even more ugly and macabre. Ruins the pieces. A 70s post futuristic world is a bad idea overall imo. At least for a hero shooter. It just looks ugly. Somethings are not meant to be man.

[@spamhands6993]

Another thing of "the key to iconic logo design being Balance, Versatility, Simplicity" not being true is the Windows 98 and Windows 7 logos being so much more iconic than Windows 10 and 11s. I'm also more and more convinced that 1. the designs didn't really translate that well to the realistic style. 2. nobody's talking about how this is yet another one of Sony's poor decisions in publishing.

[@GraveUypo]

ah i miss the 90's, when the justification for putting things in the game was "we thought this was some cool shit, so we put it in".

[@pearsonsweeney]

Great video, I think you made some great points. I agree sometimes things are iconic because of time, not because they have a magical designs. To often in the online space we dog pile onto things that are trendy even if that means kicking fellow artists while there down. I’m glad you put out a nuanced and thoughtful point of view.

[@riddhimabhatt3997]

thank you so much for uploading today...you saved my career . honestly..i was thinking of dropping out of art school but your videos keep reminding me of my love for drawing..especially your sketchbook tours..thanks

[@joaomarcos7199]

Why would you quit art school? i really want to know

[@almachizit3207]

The biggest problem with the designs imo is simply that they didn't commit to the art style enough. There's something about them that even without context you can look at them and immediately tell "there clearly was something interesting going on here, but they chickened out at the last moment" and that communicates a lack of confidence in the game itself. If they chickened out of an interesting art style and visual language, what other interesting things did they chicken out on? Map design? Mechanics? Skins? Gamemodes? It's a cascading effect that immediately tells a potential plater that the game would most likely be boring and safe and therefore not worth playing

[@doc_sav]

I mostly agree, but people were not buying the character looks before the game ever released. I don't say that to denigrate the artists. Things just don't always work out in business and art. In this case, the art may have deterred rather than attracted. I don't understand the sensitivity about it, personally. Take the L and do better next time.

[@ARStudios2000]

For Firewalk, I don't even know if there will even be a next time

[@doc_sav]

@@ARStudios2000 There very well may not be. I am thinking more about the individuals and what they will work on next. One of them said on X that a bunch of them are considering quitting the games industry because of what people are saying. That seems very strange to me for professional artists, but failure is never easy.

[@Tomasrrb]

I agree completely. We've seen the opposite in videogames and film, where you have something extremely beautiful but with no substance. Those also crash and burn. Videogames are a whole package of things, including setting, story, character development, character and world design, coding and many other things. If it depended exclusively on character design, Minecraft wouldn't be a thing.

[@NaughtMax]

Absolutely this! I’ve been wanting to make a video in a similar vein where people judge a design completely devoid of context of the visual language surrounding it. The designs can be critiqued but you need to do that in the context of what they’re trying to communicate and achieve with their visual language

[@hoxtom3663]

FUCKING FINALLY someone gets it. I was stunned at these self-proclaimed ''professional'' artists with their template ABC approach to ''character design''. I thought I was going crazy with how popular those videos were. AMEN to you Chroma Moma. I'm not a fan of the Concord final designs either but my biggest gripe about this is how this discussion will probably push back against trying new things.

[@Literature4343]

fr, crazy how the mainstream didnt get it whatsoever, im was starting to think i was trippin. (im not saying the concord designs are neccessarily good)

[@hoxtom3663]

@@Literature4343 agreed, I think that game was just a perfect storm for people to pile on it. It feels like these youtube artist channels are just capitalizing on a trendy topic but are completely wrong with their takes (or at the very least super misleading).

[@Literature4343]

@@hoxtom3663 like honest the number of them are essentially just saying that they're not seeing enough "flesh" is mind boggling, all the while in a condescending demeaner, smh, like what do they know, they got a whole lotta coom but little design/fashion sense in their brains. And im a straight dude btw. And the other ones are just like "oh the proportions are too realistic and/or the colors are too bland (ie not akin to Overwatch aesthetics lol)" im like how is this critique?? and their redesigns have nothing to do with the theme/context of the game. its like saying a plane is objectively better than a car lol.

[@royaldarkness8453]

@@hoxtom3663can you guy give name example of those ‘popular’ artist youtuber here ? So I can avoid or at least take a grain of salt on their videos

[@chok1169]

Sorry homie, but the end designs were shit. They were not appealing at all and I ain't blaming the artists, because from the beginning I said that concept artist that work in the industry know their shit and specially if they work for a big project. So I know for a fact that the higher ups had to have fucked up the end designs or what was the type of design they wanted which most of them are horrible and unappealing. I see a lot of drafts of the designs that look a lot better compared to the end designs by miles, so yah It was probably the higher ups, because I don't believe for a second that the concept artists didn't notice that the designs looked horrible. However, most redesigns on the platform didn't give that much attention to the context or brief on which the artists were working on for the designs of the game. And some of them focused too much on the rule book about the fundamentals of design... But, while it's true that rules are meant to be broken when you understand them, in the case of Concord none of the end designs are able to transmit that lmao.

[@younglink8718]

I am not a game designer, but I can say 100% that character design can and has steered me away from buying or playing games. Something was definitely lost in translation from the concept art to the final product however n this game, and that's very unfortunate.

[@DeuxisWasTaken]

You seem to reverse the cause and effect of Pharah's design. They went from "we want a character that flies and shoots rockets" through "so she should look like a bird" and "what nation would a bird-like design fit" to "let's make her Egyptian and adjust the design to that". They weren't like "hurr we wanna make an Egyptian character so let's make her a bird lol". The readability of the design (and its overall quality, as in "looks cool") is the starting point, not some random need for a country token. The "context" of the game's lore, overall design style and whatever is just a vehicle to allow such designs and help them make a coherent cast. It helps them be good designs, not limits them from being good. When judging Concord's designs, the context is at best just another hint to why they are bad, not some kind of justification for them being bad.

[@exuberantexile]

Great Video most people don't actually go in-depth and properly on the Concord character designs issues, also your mechs are sick, ALSO MOEBIUS MENTION

[@ChromaMoma]

Impossible to miss if you're an artist

[@hannahdeards9652]

​@@ChromaMomaActually, I'm a big Moebius fan but I didn't clock the influence in the designs :(

[@diemes5463]

They look nothing like moebius...

[@leo5907]

@@hannahdeards9652 maybe because concord desing are just bad

[@exuberantexile]

@@hannahdeards9652 I think really the saturation and pallets, since concord just has really saturation and feels kind of muddy when the colors are define pared with some pretty weird overly design things you can see where it diverged and then kind of went wrong...

[@vcubedvvv]

I have been begging my favorite arttuber to do a redesign of concord characters and i am glad that they didn't took my advice

[@ninjapotato980]

Seeing so many artists post their work on concord these past weeks it's truly insane how much work just went down the drain here

[@RudolfBuirma]

I'm happy KZbin pushed your video for several days, you managed to debunk these redesign videos in a very clearly articulated way, and I needed that. Thanks.

[@qaztim11]

The designs are made for something like Moebius,Scavengers Reign, Fantastic Planet or Heavy Metal. If you look at the art directors portfolio, you see she is massively influenced by Moebius. The designs are good if not great, slap a cell shader over the designs and simplify some of the shapes to make them less realistic, and that aesthetic would kick ass. What killed this game (and a lot of the AAA games) is the focus on hyper-realism, let games be art, stop making every game look the same.

[@Entertaininglylame]

Seriously great vid! I’ve always been interested to learn where things draw inspiration from no matter the medium. I like to gain an understanding of the thought process behind the designs. So thank you for providing the context of the character design. I was intrigued by concords designs and it’s great to know what their source of inspiration for was. Now to delve into the inspiring artists work and study it!

[@HardyLeBel-c9r]

I agreed with the points you were raising right up until you started saying individual contributors can’t affect the overall quality or direction of large projects. That is 100% wrong. The most successful teams and projects rely on every member to be committed to excellence, and to have the courage to point out when work is not up to snuff. Every single person, 100% of the time. That’s where Halo came from.

[@bepisboy4859]

Glad someone's bringing this up cause it's been bothering the hell out of me that almost every redesign i've seen for concord is just "ignore almost every trait from the original designs and give them big boobers". Like cool redesign dude i can totally see this woman in a sci fi bikini as the tank that eats damage.

[@jeffmorris5802]

Why are you skipping past the gooning, exactly? You people discounting "sex sells" as the reason for games sales is wild to me. All of Riot's most successful skins are just skimpy ladies... or Jhin. Marketers knew for decades that sex sells, now suddenly it's not in vogue to acknowledge that? Why exactly?

[@VultRoos]

Thank you THANK YOU, i feel like i was going insane looking at the discussion on it by prior who never even saw the original concepts

[@okays-]

Really good points made here. Design unique to character backstory, and not just general principles of association, is so important to the depth of the characters The knowledge when character designers put enough thought to connect and give reasoning for why they have their designs made the way it was is so reassuring

[@toffotin]

This is an excellent point. Good criticism always starts with the question, what were they trying to do? But people often just assume what the goal was based on their own taste.

[@onanthebarbarian4842]

Two things can be true at the same time. Many redesigns misunderstand the point behind character designs. True. Concord's character designs are bad. Also true. This video makes a good point about the context of character design, and how "readability" figures into that. A lot of these redesign videos make the point that a character should be instantly recognizable as their role, for instance. And this is wrong. But a character SHOULD be instantly recognizable as themselves, because players will be familiar with said character and their abilities in the game. And then their design should also be linked to their function in a gameplay context. For example, the Heavy in TF2 is large. It serves the function of being able to recognize and target him easily, because he is a character with a large health pool and enormous damage output. Not recognizing the Heavy for what he is will kill you in two seconds. He is also large so the other characters can hide behind him while the Heavy soaks all damage as the Medic is healing him. This is why Overwatch has a huge character pool of large tanks. In short, part of their design is dictated directly by their function in the game. Even if all characters were reduced to just squares, the tanks would have to be big. This is also where things like abilities and effects come into play, which redesigners have admittedly been largely sleeping on (but some haven't been). For instance, in Overwatch when a character is hovering over the battlefield, you know it's Pharah. You don't need other context clues. OK, on to Moebius. I'm not seeing it. And I think Moebius is over-cited on the internet, particularly because he's one of the few Eurocomics artists Americans are familiar with. One could easily cite Juan Gimenez as inspiration for some of these designs. But people don't, because people only know Moebius. Well, I'm not seeing Moebius in the concept art. And arguably, neither does the maker of the video, because he only uses the Dune concept art as an example. I'm not seeing any Blueberry panels, here.

[@MrLisso98]

The goddamn problem was that it was photorealistic slop, instead of something more original. TBH OW works because it dosen't want to push photorealism, it has a clear "cartoony" art direction and stylisation.

[@Trecherousbeast]

I think you’ve perfectly explained why I dislike redesign videos. Applying basic design principles is easy enough, but without any focus it ends up looking cookie cutter. Not exactly bad, but not as great as it could be.

[@Will_Forge]

The issue with Mobius's art direction is that it feels other worldly in a way that makes me feel like I'm not the character, but Concord is a third person shooter with a tight third person camera. A tight third person camera as well as a first persona camera both try to make you feel like you are the character and rely on that working to make the game feel, uh, groovy, to vibe... Hold on... To make the game experience feel more cohesive. Had to think of a better phrase, but basically to not feel like it's repulsing you out of the experience by breaking immersion. Anyway, the way to implement something like Mobius's style is to implement it into a third person video game with a free motion camera, or maybe a side scrolling game or a game with a 2nd person style camera like Metal Gear Solid 1, 2, and 3 where the camera is fixed or on rails but moves to new fixed locations or rails as you pass to new areas of the game world. Take the Odd World series as an example of doing this right in both 2D and 3D. Odd World does not use Mobius's style, but it uses a similarly disruptive art style to the game's immersion because it looks mildly repulsive in an other worldly and almost disturbing kind of way just like Mobius's, which is also an appeal to both of them. The way they make this work is they let you control the camera which works in a number of ways to help with strange art styles like these. Let me explain below. The first and most important effect that these other camera angles provide is a feeling that you are the camera and not necessarily the character. You can look at the character and scrutinize their designs and not feel averse within the realm of the "wierd but good" art style because you're the camera that's viewing them rather than being tied to them as closely as games like Concord. You have the freedom to examine. When you're playing as a character that feels too other worldly, being able to examine their details and take in the art style during gameplay and at your own will makes it easier to accept them as your character stand-in within the game world. It's the difference between being the Master Chief or Samus and feeling like you're them, vs playing as Link or Marcus Phoenix and feeling like they are them and you're getting to step into their shoes for a moment (in Link's case being the reason Nintendo ultimately gave up their failed attempts to make him a player stand-in and ultimately just accepted he is a stand alone character with a dedicated name like in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom). There are likely other ways this helps. I feel like I had a third to add here and forgot it in typing these two up, but this is enough to explain it, I think. This is all also why video games have had the freedom to make more varied and wierd art styles than film and those games still become extremely popular rather than remaining a small cult classic as in film. Players being able to explore the world at their own digression in games rather than being forced to view the world as the director sees fit is a massive part of why video games have some pretty wierd art styles that might otherwise be a turn off. It comes down to control of the camera in relation to the characters, and the cinematography of the video game landscape. Sure you can turn your character to turn the camera in a sort of free camera control sort of way in tight 3rd person and all first person games, but you can't turn your character separately from the camera. The game acts like a movie director in those games and controls the shot for you. It may seem subtle, but it's absolutely applicable to player psychology. LT;DR: If the player doesn't have control of the camera angle distinctly from the character, then wierd art styles like Mobius's don't work as well due to player phycology and cinematography.

[@yashasvajain8282]

Man this is such a true click bait. Like i clicked on the video by the thumbnail wondering if there's any substance in it or is it just a roast video but man he's so true. Good one bro!

[@ginkgohue]

This video made me subscribe to you. Solid take A lot of people really miss context in general, not just this. Day to day life too, and people are very quick to make up their mind based on 1 thing instead of trying to see the bigger picture.

[@eye776]

It's pretentious, the general audience is under no obligation to like or buy a game just because the concept art for the game is a seminal tribute and had a lot of effort put into it.

[@ginkgohue]

@eye776 I never argued that they did. You're right, they don't. But people doing redesigns are not the general consumers, are they? :P

[@bruoche]

To be fair, the fact everyone ignore the art direction of the game may be testament of how little the art direction was communicated by the final designs- Like I love moebius' style and when I saw concord I did not for the life of me thought of that style for a single second... When you put specific characters side by side with a moebius one you see the ressemblance of the design, but the style itself isn't really there and so ironically enough the context that made the design work disapear Mobius is way softer with very desaturated colors, detailed linework and smooth gradients. And even design wise, it feel like concord's designs are attempts to copy existing designs they saw but a little worse to not be exact copies instead of making a trully original spin on them, it'd diluting the style not elevating it

[@christianvondruska8244]

Excactly, the game really could've looked great if the execs didn't force those uncanny and disgusting graphics onto the game for the sake of high fidelity. Ironically for them that decision ended up backfiring spectacularly. I feel sorry for the dev team, they worked hard on a project which was doomed to fail

[@Luis519RS]

Well said. Specially showing the work behind it and the art direction that was there, that I feel got sandpapered out of the final product in part for being too different.

[@Dark_Peace]

Me : Concord designs are bad This guy : they're inspired by Moebius Me : ...Concord designs are even worse

[@leo5907]

yeah like idc about the context it's just bad

[@nerdstorma8427]

THIS 😂

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

EXACTLY💀. Knowing where the designers pulled inspo from just tells us how BADLY they represented the inspiration🤣

[@ranzu3138]

Which makes the redesigns people have made even worse. Intent is the first thing you learn in order to give critique, otherwise your critique goes nowhere and addresses nothing, as demonstrated by dozens of redesigns being straight up worse than the original designs when actually applied in context.

[@nerdstorma8427]

@@ranzu3138 I could throw a handful of paint at a canvas and say I "intended" for it to look like a Deer, doesn't make the end product any less off-putting. Stop apologizing for companies that want to shove their weird propoganda everywhere.

[@GuntPunderson-jl5ni]

Love this. The best video I've seen on Concord's character designs by far.

[@DK-th5nt]

Yes, characters design is not the reason why the game faild. It's however one of many reasosns.

[@zero-0159]

Oversaturated/burn out genre, hero-shooters today are like Superhero movies, people are tired of them. Plus Higher-ups poor judgment choices.

[@Yesnomu]

Really interesting! I didn't understand the Moebius influence before, but I can really see it. And agreed, respect to the artists who put in so much effort, even if the concept was a problem from the start.

[@dustysketching6725]

it reminds me how some people though way of making better designs were either make then more "sexier" like some femine chars give em more breats and exposed areas instead of rly focusing of making the concept better, and it rather looked more like a fanservice redesign

[@randalfthewizard6446]

Thank you for this! These designs definitely do have problems but I really appreciate that you don't assume the artists are simply incompetent. Things can get lost in the process without strong direction, I've certainly lost track of the point of my designs and I don't even have to deal with the telephone effect. The thing that stands out most to me with the comparisons between the concept art and the final models is a weird interpretation of some details. Like, it seems that consistently, across multiple designs, things like tubing, wires, and trinkets were translated into little bumps and ridges that don't read as much of anything, especially in a style this detailed. And because it's shared across different characters I assume it must have been part of the direction? It's just confusing. Yeah, I think that's really part of why people talk about these so much. It's just really hard to tell what the final designs are going for until you see earlier versions of them, a lot of the important details got lost in later iterations.

[@jamesmason7979]

I don't think you argued your case very well for a multitude of reasons. But I'll stick to three. 1. The in‐game designs do not reflect the influence of Jean Giruad very well. And there's a question of how many people are familiar his work. 2. Concord costs hundreds of millions of dollars. With a budget that big, designs have to appeal to a large audience. These designs just don't. 3. Plenty of people have tackled the pricing and genre oversaturaion issues. But the design issues are more meme-worthy and thus more popular.

[@maninblack3410]

Also, dismissing artists who want characters to have some visual appeal as gooning really put me on the opposite side of his argument right from the start. Especially when the next thing he does is list out good character design traits… like being visually appealing 🤦‍♂️ Edit: I just got to the part where his defense of concord is an example… of how overwatch *doesn’t* have “instant readability” because… your mom couldn’t figure out what’s happening on screen??? Who makes an argument against character design based on gaming literacy? Why would they cater to people who don’t play games?!? Yes *we* know red potions heal, *we* are the ones going to buy these games, *we* are the people they’re designing this for.

[@spades3307]

Finally someone with a sensible opinion in this debate! I hate seing people start their videos with “I really dont want to insult anyone who worked on Concord, this was more of a studio effort” and then proceed to blame the character designers and only them for the downfall of not only the game, but the whole studio…

[@Zarzar22]

Okay its fine if its supposed to be based on Mobius. But it has failed epicly at that. It looks like people in costumes cosplaying Mobius while missing the entire tone and mood of that art style and only focusing on the shapes and colors

[@Biouke]

It's like the concept/character artists never got told they were working on a realistic 3D game and the 3D artists completely missed the Moebius style.

[@pian-0g445]

That’s the point of the video, I think. People aren’t criticising it for failing at its art style, but rather using very formulaic methods that’s are used in modern designs. Not that these methods are bad, but they don’t actually know why these work under each context. If people wanted to redesign concord, it would be more accurate if they also attempted to use inspirations from Mobeus and retro sci fi. And hey, maybe make a design which follows the same design brief, and be better

[@nintendokid9980]

This video is truly the lone wolf in a sea of sheep. I don’t think I ever once saw someone critiquing the game actually reference the intention of the designs. It’s sad to see a game fail but saying the sole reason was the characters is really just willingly being blind to the real issues.

[@MistaMocha]

I wish Team Fortess 2 was the gold standard for character archetypes in online shooters. I think OW1 characters do not read well to people who’ve not played the game much - the designs are good but so busy. The characters you referenced, aside from Mercy, do not read the way you describe them to a casual player like me. Lucio does not read as a healer nor support as readily as Reinhardt as a tank. It’s only until you play and begin to know the character archetypes do you begin to make associations with their designs.

[@yngva]

preach

[@jamespateluniversity]

@@MistaMocha I think that was literally the point though , its further exemplified later when he says ana is clearly a medic " because of her gun". It's unlikely anyone instantly recognizes some of the OW characters in a manner consistent to their gameplay roles. So judging Concord against overwatch on those terms would be a little logically inconsistent, yet its what several redesigners have done. While TF2 is indeed quite readable, I personally think clear distinction between characters is sufficient even if they are individually quite complex. Though I only say busy when the details are excessive and uncontrolled, which I don't think is the case for most OW characters.

[@diemes5463]

TF2 is the OG and still the best in this aspect.

[@Snowmaninadesert]

here is the thing about the tf2 character, there designed as archetype not as characters. you can project any character onto them and it well fit just fine. Only reason you think of the characters character how you do is because of how popular the game and the characters are.

[@HOUROFPOW3R]

Also the writing for tf2 characters blows every single ow character so far out of the water it's not fair. The artists designing the ow characters are absolutely stellar at their jobs, but ain't nobody writing home about how much they love the personalities of ow character and writing fanfic for reasons other than their incessant need to goon.

[@gabrielprice1281]

You're right that trying to compete among free games but then charging for it makes the gamd destined to fail. My beef with the character designs is that the game was supposed to compete with hero shooters full of superstars and recognizable characters that you want to pick up. But they then proceed to design character, which are mostly on a mediocre frame, muted color schemes, and just to be plain uninteresting to face less risk. Staying away from risk is an issue I've been griping about with virtually every large company that exists because everything is boring or predatory to consumers now.

[@AlexLusth]

100 percent yes. This is a very sobering take on the whole thing. Nice work, you smart man.

[@ClarenceDass]

Thank you. I thought the same thing when watching that redesign video. I like the overall concept ideas behind Concord. It captured the pulpy look and a the euro sci fi comics from the 80s. And yeah, it defiantly reminded me of Moebius.

[@SunDry_Marchy]

This is a giant tangent of a video with a point that doesn't make itself. Doesn't present itself. A viewer has to assemble it, like an IKEA furniture. IF, IF I understand this correctly, your gripe is that the design was flawed because... marketing was flawed? because the jump from old retro fugly space art design haven't been applied correctly? because people allegedly (and the one alleging is you, in a hostile, antagonistic and downright unlikeable manner) want easier designs?

[@SunDry_Marchy]

What an elitist asshole 10:44 :/ Whatever point you had, your presentation shouldn't be like this

[@SunDry_Marchy]

It's their fault and those are their designs. How the hell would you say otherwise, unless you professionally deformed and simply fear getting same treatment later on if or when you fail as hard as them? 11:31

[@perhaps4887]

@@SunDry_Marchy He mentions at the end of the video the design pipeline that these characters go through before being put out in production. A lot of artists that knew what they were doing made good art for the game (see 11:13 for examples), they're not the problem. Poor management and a lack of consistent artistic direction ended up with the flawed designs that ended up in the final product.

[@sparking023]

The reason why critics of that game hover above "design" like a vulture over a dead carcass, is precisely because Concord tried so hard to be Overwatch, the uncontested gold standard of hero shoooters, and failed miserably at it. So everyone has a readily available way of making comparisons to explain why they think Concord looks bad. Sure, most people are not completely in the know about design concepts and all the theory that backs it up, but the theories are based on experience and what people learned over time, so they try to explain the "feeling" by using the comparison, to the best of their abilities. And yes, time is a key factor. Heck, the characters outlived the game because of, well, certain adult websites. I've also seen people compare Concord with Guardians of the Galaxy, a take that I agree with, and it might give a clue as to why people didn't like it. It borrows from GotG, but it's not it. It tries to copy Overwatch in structure and gameplay, but it doesn't have some of the elements that made it work. It is based on the Moebius designs, but it's poorly executed and falls short when brought to the actual game. Concord tries to be many things, and fails at all, with a price tag to make things worse. Couple all that with the MCU Hummor, the millenial writing, the Current Year-isms, and it's no surprised why it flopped so hard. Most of those issues are likely due to managerial interference from the higher-ups, and to that, I have no solutions aside from working your butt off with limited resources but greater creative freedom, the path of indie game devs. If it was launched back then, I still think it would flop based solely on the price tag, but probably not as much. When you get a trend setter game, people naturally gravitate towards it because it's the bigm popular one. Think League of Legends and DotA for MOBAs, Overwatch and TF2 for "hero" shooters, CoD and Battlefield for FPS. Most people probanly never heard of Smite, Paladins, and maybe if they're older, they played some Killzone and Counter Strike. PUBG or Fortnite, pick your poison. If there's a lesson to be learned here is that companies like Sony, who acquired Firewalk, apparently lost touch with the player base and doesn't know what interests players anymore.

[@alexludek]

I had a similar feeling while watching those videos, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Thanks for shedding light on this! It feels like you’ve peeled back a layer of the onion of truth, getting right to the core of things.

[@thunderboltfire7995]

While You're right that there's been many factors to Concord's downfall which don't have anything to do with the design, I have to disagree when it comes to the inspiration factor and it nullifying the need for readability and good colour palette of the designs - I've seen a good breakdown that looks at the designs taking their inspiration and art direction into account, and they came to the conclusion that unfortunately the designs do not invoke the aestetics they are supposed to, and they definitely could be constructed better, taking into account the basic designs principles, the characters' presentation and the interpretation of the source material. It's true that certain silhouettes, shape and color language are all tropes that don't have to be religiously followed, but when they're broken intentionally and the end result looks good nonetheless, most people don't even notice. Also as You said, one has to take the context into account - and the context is that the characters exist in a fast-paced video game, and a very specific genre that is a hero shooter. These designs could do well in an open-world game, with a variety of textures and details, but look a bit out of place in a genre known for pushing proportions and expressions to create larger-than-life, exaggerated figures. It's not only Overwatch, TF2, a staple of the genre did it too. Interestingly, in case of Concord the 2D and early concepts look way better than the final versions, so probably something went wrong on the decision/art direction level. I'd assume that most people who actually do redesigns do not intend to demean the artists who undoubtedly worked hard to create the game (some even state it outright that it's not their intention) - this should never be the goal of critique. It's however hard not to acknowledge that something went wrong with the designs, and probably in multiple aspects.

[@jinenjipeke]

this video is the best one i've seen about concord, i agree with all you said. those concept art and designs at the end made me realize how good this game would have been if sony didn't decide to remove all the soul from the game

[@needleful]

This is a good video! I've seen a couple of those redesign videos and they mostly suck lol. It's nice to see somebody talk about the game without just using their experience to validate other people's opinions.

[@Wildkarrd]

4:50 KHRUANGBIN MENTIONED

[@larikoproduzimentos4501]

HELL YEAH🗣️🔥

[@isekaitruckkun]

As a concept artis and illustrator AND a former comic book artist. i can tell you you are 100 percent correct.the reason i understand you more is because when you write comics, you have to be careful with character designs. and make them fit the context of the story. game developers which i work with , just start from these principles. add some sort of cultural base and then sort of make that fit the character archetype. character then- function. in comics however a character has to set the right mood with his design .context- then character. game developers love to play it safe and just fall for trends and stereotypes. that's why there is a decline in quality.

[@kwaddell]

Most insightful critique I’ve heard on Concord yet

[@adir6094]

8:19 this is so true, as someone who doesn’t play overwatch either, I was so confused with the ‘readability’ that they were glazing

[@CelesteLunaRael]

I like how we're also critiquing the redesigns😂 They also need to learn the lesson HARĎ

[@blitzfyre669]

Really respect this video. Hoping these devs find a project their actual visions can be appreciated in

[@virgiornos6420]

While I love the style of Mobius, I can't really picture it being used in a pvp shooter game. I see it in an open world game like breath of the wild. The only way for it to work is if they really heavily leaned into it, like weapons that are designed based on the style seen in Mobius or retro future aesthetics, reloading animations, terminology, and just totally going all in 100% on the theme. Super niche, totally weird, but fully immersive. It's entirely possible that this was the intent in the beginning, but 8 years later and you don't really see any of that in these designs. Someone overhead definitely had a foot in these characters looking as bland as they do, possibly trying to appeal to a bigger audience, and ranking up the 200m dollar bill. As 'strange' and unique as Mobius is, not even they broke the fundamental principles of design the way you see in these characters. But appeal is a big part of marketing, and I think that's were they failed. It 100% wasn't because the character designs were flawed. There are TONS of games and media out there with characters that don't have good designs and look like shit, ngl, but are popular because they're still really good without it. In fact, I'm sure this game could have gotten a lot of people who just wanted to check out how bad the characters look. But no one wanted to pay $40 to do so, not in 2024. It just wasn't appealing enough to buy.

[@tomagee420]

If i’d found out about this game much sooner, I would have been generating a lot of hype for it myself since the design inspirations are so apparent to me and exactly the realm of sci-fi aesthetics I’m into. I didn’t play it at launch or in beta because it didn’t seem to have much narrative beyond character and environment storytelling to warrant playing a game type i don’t usually play. I was waiting for it to go free-to-play so i could try it but I’m bummed it never did!

[@taleteller7838]

Magic the Gathering didn't become popular because they had a lightning bolt on a card or a drawing of a black flower. Good or bad art is a nice catch, but it won't keep anyone.

[@fmc291]

You nailed it. It’s not so much of having cool or interesting looking characters. But each individual character needs to fit within the context of the world and who they are as an individual. A unique art style would have helped but it’s also important when creating a new world. Another great example is the Apple+ show Wondla based on a book series by Tony DiTerlizzi. If you look at his illustrations and the show, it’s night and day. One is a far more interesting and compelling character design than what is in the show.

[@ericfrancisco6615]

MOBIUS' style just doesn't work in a hero shooter. It would've fared better in PvE centric game. Plus the realistic look just clashed with the stylized look of MOBIUS.

[@sandcastle84]

No, I think Spectre Divide proves that Moebius' style is possible in a shooter. For a hero shooter though, that remains to be seen.

[@LadCorazon]

Thank you so much for this. I've been so frustrated with all the redesign videos that can't even clock that Mobius is a huge touch stone for the designs. Personally, I suspect they also originally went for a more stylized in engine rendering, but more than likely there was an investor who insisted on going for "realism". I could be wrong, but whenever I talk to actual artists in the industry, 9 times out of 10 it was the investor's idea.

[@GlobCoder]

You bring up a very important point, but I watched quite a few of those redesign videos, and I don't think any of them tried to make world fitting, moebius inspired characters, or claimed to do so. I think the main point they tried to make, was that it is not that hard to make more appealing designs with far less time, money and effort than concord devs had.

[@thewatcher7940]

KZbin deleted my comment... Yeah, your comment doesn't make any sense. You can't just critique a game's art and not consider the original intent behind that art, just to claim yours as being better when it isn't even satisfying the original intent. The fact that these people doing redesign videos didn't even try to make their designs match the game's aesthetic and instead went completely into a different design style that they personally find more appealing is exactly the problem with these redesigns. You can't just take a Spartan from Halo and change it to look more like a Stormtrooper from Star Wars just because they both take place in space. They have completely different design philosophies that don't match. Character designs need to make sense and feel coherent with the world they exist in. Most of the redesigns don't. That isn't how constructive critique works. If your critique aims to completely change the design without care of what the original intent was, it's objectively bad critique. And the whole question of trying to prove that "it is not that hard to make more appealing designs in far less time, money and effort" is disrespectful and also completely misguided. The artists doing redesigns are 2D artists. They aren't 3D artists. They don't understand the process of translating 2D to 3D. Critiquing a 3D design by drawing it in 2D is not "fixing it." The original 2D designs for Concord were fine. The issue occurred when they were turned 3D, which was likely a result of executives stepping in and rushing the final 3D models. These "redesigns" would have the exact same result if they were in the same scenario. It isn't an accurate comparison.

[@GlobCoder]

​@@thewatcher7940 I don't think you understood my comment. My whole point was that they're not critiquing these designs as Concord characters designs, they're critiquing them as characters designs in general, by separating the character from the world. And the point of those videos is to teach people about FPS character design in general, by highlighting different parts of it, explaining what they are and giving examples on how they would potentially improve it. So what they're saying is not "my design is better suited for this Concord character", they're saying "my design is more appealing for the intended audience", the audience being people who look for online hero shooters. If you showed a picture of Daw next to Mercy to them, and asked them who's design they prefer more, most people would pick Mercy. Some designs resonate with people more than others, It is not a matter of personal taste, and the redesign videos highlight all the reasons why some designs work more as hero shooter designs, and some do not work that well. The point about 2D redesigns not working well for 3D characters is something I partially agree on, but you can just compare the redesigns to some of the concept art that the guy shows in this video, like the sniper lady at 11:16 for example, the design looks pretty much the same as the ingame model.

[@joemartin7451]

absolutely. ive been saying that since i learned about the concord situation. the game was set for huge challenges from the get go. saturated market being on console price tag marvel bootleg roaster and the cherry on top is the unorthodox character design.

[@normiehunter9864]

I appreciate the points made in this video and completely understand them. People have made the argument that the complete reason that Concord flopped was purely because of the mediocre character design. Not true. It was not the fault of individual artists, as it was obviously mismanaged by those in charge of art and gameplay design. However, no matter how you spin it, concord's characters were a major factor in the game's unpopularity. They were ABSOLUTELY NOT the main reason, but one of, I believe, the biggest issues that drifted the game away from the public eye, alongside its shoddy marketing. The game didn't do well because it was another hero shooter dominated by a select few games (Overwatch, Team Fortress 2, Paladins, and now even Deadlock), cost $40, which made people more skeptical, had generic-looking gameplay that was clearly based off Destiny's crucible mode (some Bungie devs worked on this game), and tries to be both an arcade shooter and a tactical shooter, then failing at both. The maps were forgettable and abilities were not too well-balanced. Despite this, the gameplay was okay. It was fun, but not amazing, simply okay. Being okay, whilst costing money to access, whilst competing against one of the biggest hero shooters on the market, was suicide. So your point about the other reasons I listed being much greater problems than the character designs is a good point. BUT, having characters that either looked as generic as humanly possible or just completely unappealing did not do the game any favors. The last thing it needed was people making fun of the trash robot, the "white guy with green makeup" alien man, or the Blade ripoff with kneepads and Nike Air Jordans. Having no marketing, an unappealing cast and serviceable gameplay was what got only 2k people to play it WHEN IT WAS FREE during an open beta. I remember the first time I saw Overwatch's trailer and I saw Tracer for the first time and I remember thinking "Wow, she looks really cool!" and seeing Winston and thinking "That's a talking gorilla with a lightning gun - I gotta see what Overwatch is". Not once did I get that impression seeing any of the characters in Concord's trailer. Maybe the trash robot - but I can barely remember any of the characters' names as is. And a lot of people who had watched the game's trailer during that State of Play expo shared the same opinion I did, they barely cared about the game and how they presented the characters, and when they revealed it was a hero shooter, it was as if you watched the life leave someone's body in real life. The game was essentially dead from there. The game did not look interesting to a large collective of people, they did not vibe with the generic-looking characters having obnoxious "Guardians of the Galaxy-esque" personalities, AND it was a hero shooter. Hero shooters are made to have appealing characters, or what the hell is the point? Why would I want to play someone who looks stupid? It's the reason why you boot up Tekken 8, see a character like King and think "Oh damn, he looks really cool" or play League of Legends, see Riven and think "I want to main her and buy all her skins". I think that's why people grasp onto this idea that the character designs are what failed to the game even if it was a lot more complex than that. It's the most surface-level answer to give to someone who asks you "Why did Concord fail?" It's easy to respond with "Well, you have eyes, right? Look at it."

[@ph5.484]

This is where I'm at. Like yes, a lot of the redesigns don't necessarily understand the vision of the game itself, but it's still true that the designs just don't seem to resonate with people. I've heard that the worldbuilding in Concord was actually super robust, which is something I'm interested in, but then I look at the cast of characters and none of them look like someone I want to play as, so why would I bother?

[@ConRa-e9q]

Really good video dude, your time comment was great also. Another thing I am considering is you saying why isn't the fire mage red, you have a great point because you want to make a character evoke a certain purpose that doesn't mean the entire design needs to spell it out for you, there's subtetly at play here also.

[@ranzu3138]

YES FINALLY Concord designs are a conplete miss, but ALL redesigns I've seen are equally if not of WORSE quality than Concord's final designs. They all completely ignore intent, context and inspiration. If you have a bad hamburger and "fix" it by making it a hotdog, bad news: you didn't fix crap, you made a hotdog.