Is dairy good or bad for you? | Tim Spector & Sarah Berry

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Decades ago, there were reams of adverts instructing us to drink our milk so we don’t break our bones. But in the decades since, public opinion toward dairy is very different, and the scientific community has largely debunked these ideas.
Many of the health-conscious among us choose to avoid it altogether. Our reasons range from a belief that dairy leads to inflammation, to acne, or even to an increased risk of heart attack due to high levels of saturated fat.
But have we fallen into the same trap we often do, bouncing from one extreme to another? Could cutting out dairy mean we miss out on vital nutrients? Or could it hold the secret to a healthy gut microbiome?
Today, Jonathan is joined by ZOE regulars and renowned experts, Dr. Sarah Berry and Prof. Tim Spector.
In this episode, you’ll not only find out whether you should eat dairy or cut it out, but you’ll also hear two leading nutritional scientists try to reach an agreement on how to translate the latest research into actionable advice. And hopefully, they’ll still remain friends afterward.
If you want to uncover the right foods for your body, head to joinzoe.com/podcast, and get 10% off your personalized nutrition program.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Introduction
00:33 - Quickfire round
01:22 - Biggest myth about dairy
03:23 - Does dairy cause inflammation?
10:12 - Bone fragilaty
15:27 - Cheese and Yogurt
16:59 - Full fat vs semi skinned
18:52 - Milk and cholesterol
20:41 - Fermented dairies
22:44 - dairy and microbes
25:04 - Saturated fats
27:22 - Cheese quality
31:00 - Summary
32:47 - Goodbyes
32:58 - Outro
Books:
- Every Body Should Know This by Dr Federica Amati: amzn.to/4blJsLg
- Food For Life by Prof. Tim Spector: amzn.to/4amZinu
Follow ZOE on Instagram: / zoe
Episode transcripts are available here: joinzoe.com/learn/category/nu...
Is there a nutrition topic you’d like us to cover? Email us at [e-mail] and we’ll do our best to cover it.

[@Cas.1964]

When i was a child back in the 70s we all just ate a balanced diet, home cooking and a bit of everything with a few treats. Hardly anyone was overweight or had diabetes and we didnt need to spend hours listening to conflicting advice from 'experts' about good and bad foods. Weve become a generation of food obsessives and hardly anyone is fit and well anymore!

[@bikecat57]

Its Ultra High processed foods that are the problem. Thats why people are obese.

[@Cas.1964]

@bikecat57 Agree. My family have consumed full fat dairy all our lives and my parents are still fit and healthy at 87. It's all the processed, low fat, low sugar etc that's bad not normal food.

[@ianbigsand7]

Rose tinted glasses I'm afraid.

[@sallydrumm3209]

I grew up in the seventies as well, and I can remember canned meatballs, canned ravioli, amongst other rubbish. I think you may need to go back a decade or two before that to get to a healthier era

[@michelles2299]

I agree I was brought up on home cooked food local produce

[@dm1111]

My horrible migraine has cleared beautifully after I gave up dairy. My skin improved immensely as well.

[@jamesfielden4935]

Then you have intolerance, probably to the lactose. Would be interesting to see if you used organic ghee sat ok with you, it really is sensationally nutritious and healthy

[@dm1111]

@@jamesfielden4935 No, too many people experienced considerable health improvement around me when they stopped consuming dairy. And it makes sense to me what I my friend pointed out - no other species consume milk once they grow up. I just feel so good and energetic without it that I have no desire to look for alternatives. Plenty of fat in avocados, coconut oil, or goose fat for non vegetarians. I have no intolerance at all. Dairy is just the most mucus forming food on the planet so clogs people up big time. In my opinion :)

[@jamesfielden4935]

Totally makes sense and i was full vegan for a few years but started integrating dairy back in, only organic and largely Ghee. for Ghee I looked deeply into the science and what I discovered was that the health benefits were unquestionable, perhaps not for everyone of course. Maybe majority dairy is like you say though. Thanks for your feedback

[@b-rse]

@@dm1111 Though it is not exactly prudent to rationalize dietary wisdom from what other animals do, or don't do. Other species neither cook or wash their food, yet it is very beneficial to do so. Also the wrong conclusions have been drawn from the observation that other species don't consume milk once mature. They don't do it because they don't have the necessary infrastructure to do so. Animals are not known for being discerning when consuming food, in fact many animals will eat their own excrement, known as "Coprophagy", if need be. So I doubt they would have any qualms about milk. There is just no practical way for other animals to consume milk, a wolf would be more likely to kill a cow than to milk it. As for the anecdotal benefits of not consuming Dairy, you could find many other anecdotes saying the opposite. The fact is Dairy has been consumed,and has been part of many cultures, for Millennia, and has been shown to be very nutritious . Though many people do have a intolerance to it, which has been well documented. So it just comes down to what ever works for you. I think many people try to bisect diet into good v. bad, but everyone is different.

[@Wesenskern]

​@@dm1111 same experiences as you re. skin, no allergy either. Way less brain fog, too, after giving up dairy for good.

[@zedgarden]

20:40 for me it had MASSIVE MASSIVE difference in my cholesterol levels. In only a month abstaining from full fat dairy products my total cholesterol went from 7.2mmol/L (or 282mg/dL) to 4.6 mmoL/L (or 180 mg/dL). We tried to reintroduce full fat dairy in my diet and within a month which is when I got the third blood test, cholesterol levels increased again to 6.7mmol/L (or 262mg/dL). So in my instance dairy alone had a huge influence in my blood cholesterol enormously. (To point out the blood samples were taken all the same time of the day every 4 weeks, my total daily calories during the 3 months were 2,900 per day- 3 h of resistance training exercises per wk ans 2 hours of cardio per wk, bw 80kg,179cm high). Perhaps something you forgot to mentioned is that total daily calories has a huge role in how it affect lipids values as been shown in the "Minnesota Starvation Experiment".

[@shetaz905]

I, too, have difficulties with full fat dairy. My LDL cholesterol (ApoB) goes through the roof.

[@generalgeert]

I eat eat only full fat variants of food and i consume a lot of yogurt and cheese. I do not like food the additives which are often in lower fat variants. My ApoB is completely constant and low. It seems from your reaction that there are massive and i mean MASSIVE individual differences.

[@shetaz905]

@@generalgeert Yep. Genetic issue for me.

[@ColinMcNulty]

Unfortunately your data point of one doesn't trump the clinical trial the lady is commenting on. The fact is that consumption of saturated fat has no effect on blood cholesterol. Your body produces all the cholesterol it needs. Cholesterol is absolutely vital to stay health. Cholesterol is your body's ambulance, scurrying off to the scene of "accidents" in your blood stream, which in the case of atherosclerosis, means chronic inflammation of your arteries caused by excess carbohydrates. Cholesterol is the sticking plaster your body uses to repair your artery walls. Blaming cholesterol for heart disease is like blaming ambulances for accidents, cos everywhere you see an accident, you see an ambulance! As vitamin D is fat soluble, and vitamin D is a precursor for cholesterol, consuming more full fat milk @zengarden would have increased your vitamin D levels, possibly if you're vitamin D deficient (as many people are, especially in the sun deprived UK) which may have provided your body what it needed to produce it's own much needed cholesterol. That could be the mechanism involved here. Source: www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/atvbaha.112.254110

[@ayushkhanna8126]

I had the same experience. My serum cholestrol levels crashed when I removed dairy and meat from my diet as did the ApoB. This is also established in other studies however since we know that a higher amount of saturated fat does prod the liver into producing more cholesterol and triglycerides than the body needs however this does vary from population to population and within that from person to person. People in Asian countries have a very low dairy tolerance and in them these problems are likely to be exacerbated vs people of Northern European extraction. So best is to do what you did and get blood tests before and after a month off dairy and check for yourself before you make a decision on whether to include it in your everyday diet or not.

[@K1VTN]

Could you please provide links to the studies which support your positions?!?

[@sladflob]

Can we please have references to the studies showing that the saturated fats in cheese and other fermented dairy products don't cause an increase in cholesterol?

[@K1VTN]

This is very important

[@rosssundberg5510]

It’s more complicated than that. The simple view is that there is no link between saturated fat and heart disease (or any chronic disease). It may have an effect on cholesterol but what matters is whether your ldl cholesterol is damaged (debated whether that comes from sugar and/or seed oils). Look into macrophages, or videos by Paul Mason for short intros into the topic. You may also artificially lower cholesterol with plant sterols but that doesn’t actually help the situation.

[@iancatta985]

The only studies that suggest this are funded by the dairy industry which conflicts with all the other studies that suggest otherwise

[@gilessteve]

I used to have terrible cystic acne all over my back, shoulders and upper arms. It disappeared entirely when I gave up dairy ten years ago. I never really hear this spoken about, so I don't know if it's an allergy, intolerance or whatever. I also don't know if it's _all_ dairy or just milk.

[@avicenna1977]

You're not alone with your experience. I suspect part of the disparate data (particularly epidemiological) with eggs and dairy is due to the different agricultural practices of the country of the population under the study. The U.S. allows hormone and antibacterial treatment of animals. Cows raised by conventional farms are force fed corn and often have high levels of insulin and conditions associated with obesity - so of course consuming dairy and meat of such animals leads to exposure to high insulin and other hormones that can contribute to acne (among other issues - such as diabetes, CVD and obesity). The EU has different agncultural rules and treatment standards for animals - and they certainly don't allow hormone treatment to make the animals bigger or to produce more milk, so the health effects of dairy consumption would likely be quite different.

[@gilessteve]

@@avicenna1977 Thanks for your answer. FYI, I've lived in both the US and UK and it really didn't seem to make any difference where I was. I was living in the UK when I finally realised dairy was the problem.

[@insightphoto]

@@avicenna1977 ooops! here in the UK we, err, left the EU ...... oh dear!

[@jyotsnahofmann8911]

I have had similar experience after quitting dairy. I still eat sheep and goat dairy sparingly but no cow dairy. I finally stopped having cystic acne even though I include the exceptions like Feta & Halloumi(see/Goat).

[@claymor8241]

In 1978 I read a recently published book called ‘Acne Can Be Cured’ by Gustave Hoehn (a doctor). The entire thrust of the book was that by removing fat from the diet, particularly in the form of dairy products, acne could be cured. I found it difficult to cut out fats completely in those days, for various reasons, so I never properly tested the theory, but ever since then I have cut it down. Maybe he was on to something.

[@annettestephens5337]

Couldn’t believe my ears when I heard the team get excited about ‘Philadelphia’ towards the end of this video. IT’S ULTRA PROCESSED! I thought they had decided that ultra processed foods should be avoided.....doesn’t make sense.

[@dishtailor2182]

Havent got to that part but soft cheese like philadelphia doesnt necessary equate to UPF. If it has emulsifiers and other preservative then is it. However nothing inhertently bad in 'soft cheese' if milk is the only ingredient

[@annettestephens5337]

@@dishtailor2182 I totally agree about soft cheese and regularly make my own at home using whole milk. However, Philadlphia has a list of ingedients that are not usually found in people kitchens and therefore, by Zoe’s reckoning , is ultra processed.

[@wendyscott8425]

And yet there's nothing quite as over-processed than skim milk or even low-fat milk. I drink raw milk myself and have for the past four years. It's delicious and hasn't given me any problems. I don't drink a lot, about a glass a day, but when I do, yum! I grew up on skim milk, which my mother thought was better for me. I never did like it and switched to the real thing once I grew up. I'm 78, btw. Also, I love butter. It has four different vitamins and who knows what else, especially when it's from grass-fed cows. Milk may raise cholesterol but I couldn't care less. I even told my doctor that when he saw my tests, and he backed off and said it was up to me. I was quite surprised. Human beings have always needed saturated fat. It was the low-fat propaganda that made everyone fat (along with seed oils and too much sugar).

[@claroeoscar]

@@annettestephens5337 I mean citric acid is fine (i actually have it in my kitchen!) but yeah guar gum is trash and pointless. It seems there are loads of 'soft cheese' out there that are only made with milk though, ironically cheaper than phili too.

[@cghrios783]

@@wendyscott8425I did not grow up here and every morning our dairy milk guy would deliver raw milk and he would bring his goats and milk them right there and we would drink it up. Never problems. We came to this country and I can’t drink the milk here makes me sick. I’m very sad about it. When I go home I drink it, no problems. I will go home to stay and I dream with all the fruit trees and vegetables all sort of them that you never find here. It will be a change and I will miss my adoptive country because I love this country but we need simple and natural. I hear gates saying that by 2030 we need to be plant base consumers and eat cricket burgers and shiitake like that and that is a very scary thing. May God help us.

[@steveshepherd333]

I was diagnosed with changeable arthritis, my GP said that the hospital, Bristol, wanted to operate and fuse the respective joints together. This was at the time I was turning to a plant based diet, within just a few weeks, the severe pain I had endured for a few years, the ‘burning’ pain that occurred in the respective joints, either sleeping, resting etc.. dissipated little by little……. That was well over 5 years ago ….. I don’t want to tempt fate, but, to this day, since that day I gave up dairy, I my arthritis has vanished, I get no pain at all. Thank goodness, I didn’t follow the advice of my GP and the specialist, perhaps you may think this is coincidence, or maybe not. However, my arthritis problem ceases to be 🙏😊 👍🏼 Thanks for your interesting video sharing, Steve, Bristol. P.s. I forgot to mention that the X-ray’s taken, clearly showed arthritis.

[@cnrhghs]

would be great if Zoe provided links to the the evidence these guys refer to.

[@davidr1431]

It really would.

[@ocelotcat]

I was wanting the same information too .... for all we know, Dr. Berry is a paid shill for the dairy industry..... I'll have to research her to try to find her scientific references etc.

[@epicvegan986]

C'mon, you know how these people play, there isn't any evidence & if they have any it has been presented in a way that makes it appear that what they are saying is true. That Sarah Berry says "There's something magical in the matrix that means cheese & yogurt don't raise cholesterol".. That's not good enough & it's definitely not what the evidence shows.

[@sarahbarton2089]

Yes please

[@Hardiarm]

You will be waiting

[@juliewilliams793]

Milk-wise, we only have full fat organic milk in our house and we all love it

[@dystopiaeatsmoney]

That milk doesn’t belong to you. It was stolen from a mother cow and sold to you.

[@ZsuzsaKarolySmith]

It would also be interesting to examine the difference between A1 vs A2 dairy - as well as the effects of homogenisation and pasteurisation.

[@Dang_Lin-Wang]

​@@dennisward43I love roquefort, I picked some up this very eve.. very high in vit k2 as well...

[@SunnySingh-ee1df]

I've been using raw organic milk for years with my family and I have fewer allergies during hay-fever season and its helped clear up my kids eczema. Pasteurised dairy is a scam, especially when they sell prebiotics separately. Raw Milk has that prebiotic/good bacteria already included.

[@cherylelinsmith743]

Yes, Dr. Gundry talked about Casein A1 and Casein A2. Cows have mutated to Casein A1. Guernsey cows are still A2, as are Goats and Sheep. He said on here, allot of people think they are lactose intolerant, when they are not it's the Casein A1. Because of my colon issues I have to watch dairy. I can't eat ice cream, but have been able to eat Goat cheese, as cows milk cheese doesn't agree with me.

[@BluegillGreg]

@cherylelinsmith743 Be careful of your sources! Gundry pitches a restrictive diet and warns people not to get nutrition from nutritious whole foods, instead urging them to buy his questionable supplements.

[@loungayvanbatuyog4023]

@@BluegillGregHe does not urge his viewers to buy his products.

[@Sheyz123]

I have struggled with sinus infections because of constant mucus in my lungs throat all my life. I found out 30 years ago that it was the lactose in dairy but recently I figured out that it's also the casein in dairy My health has improved so immensely I'm 73 I wish I had known this years ago. I was always bombarded with antibiotics. I'm the exception most people don't get as sick on dairy as I do.

[@cherylelinsmith743]

Cows have mutated to Casein A1 that's the problem. Guernsey cows, Goats, and Sheep are still Casein A2. I switched to Goats milk cheese, because cows milk cheese does not agree with my colon. So far it's good no problems. Because of my colon issues, I had to give up ice cream, and only have a little milk in my black tea.

[@jjjones4982]

When I cut out dairy I got rid of the inflammation & muscle stiffness to the point that I now hop out of bed like I did 25 years ago.

[@JohnSmith-lk8cy]

Exactly. Tim is WRONG on Dairy. Is he paid by the Dairy Industry.

[@essexcaz5685]

So much conflicting advice can be overwhelming. My Mum taught me to cook and I have home cooked all of my life. I’m in my 60s and have maintained my weight, dress size and health throughout my life with a balanced diet including home baking (basically 4 ingredients….look at the ingredients in a shop bought one…..20+ ingredients) and exercise. At least Zoe is doing their best to drill down on eating habits and looking at outcomes.

[@joehart8353]

Were you ever taught how to make processing aids at home from other common shop bought ingredients.? @tim_spector Eg use of course ground mustard seed as an emulsifier? Better still did you know that enzymatically trans-esterifed organic dairy fats exist eg in tributyrin (commonly an "artificial" triglyceride containing only saturated C4 fatty acids) but these are different to the similarly sounding "trans - fats". Tributeryrin exists naturally in dairy fats but at low levels. It has been clinically proven to be an excellent means of improving healthy villus maintenance in the gut. This increases the surface area available in the gut for nutrient uptake. This is one of the functions of butyrate in breast milk (human & animal milks). Tributyrin is just a more potent format which is active in the small intestine and the colon mucosal tissues.

[@markus717]

@@joehart8353 Can you tell us what's the benefit of ground mustard see emulsifier? What are you emulsifying?

[@markus717]

Baking with 4 ingredients? Let me guess: sugar, flour, lard & ?

[@joehart8353]

@@markus717 high fat /oil content ingredients that would eventually separate from the aqueous phase components eg vinaigrette dressing, chutneys, savoury sauces & gravies

[@essexcaz5685]

@@markus717 butter not lard and eggs😉

[@lynnehayward7309]

I avoid dairy to reduce impact on heading to battery dairies. After staying next to an organic dairy farm and hearing the desperate cries of a mother having her calf taken away ...nah... I can't support mass production of dairy. Nothing to do with my health.

[@robbach2816]

I think that is a very good reason.. and should be considered a part of the equation

[@lynnehayward7309]

@@robbach2816 Yes. It's rarely mentioned as a reason to stop or reduce dairy.

[@AlessandroCarpentiero]

Same 🌱✨

[@Theaterofthepilgrammige]

I live and work on a cattle ranch. Calves are sad after weaning, like any animal that gets weaned. They get over it after 2 days.

[@lynnehayward7309]

@@Theaterofthepilgrammige You missed the other points. Cows are not emotionally dead. They feel the loss, and to regularly separate them from their calves within days is cruel. Not just the calves and mothers, but the concept of breeding dairy cows with udders so big, some breeds can barely walk. They are often treated as a commodity, inanimate objects, not feeling animals. Due to human demand, we now have these poor living creatures in batteries, on turntables, just mindlessly stood (as bad as mining ponies. Cows like to frolic, run, nuzzle their young, each other. One farmer story is he lost his wife, and it was his small herd of cows who picked up on his despair, and he's changed to providing a therapeutic environment for others. I'm not saying never milk cows, I just think for example, grown men should stop gulping down litres of it, and use it if one has to, in moderation.

[@nicholacarr969]

I have become dairy free because I have discovered that cheese, and dairy really affect my sinuses - I have had two operations to remove polyps! If I have a piece of cheese or some milk the next day I sound as though I have a cold! I also struggle with diarrhoea if I eat certain cheeses! I now have oat milk instead - and oat milk yoghurt!

[@Sparkling-Cyanide]

Found out that in addition to my sinus and breathing problems, dairy also caused my irregular heartbeat.

[@MrAmitdaswani]

I’m curious if there is any conflict of interests in any of the randomized controlled trials saying dairy is anti-inflammatory versus pro-inflammatory. I think what we’ve learned about the cigarette industry… how they use studies and doctors to promote consumption of a product that doesn’t serve us… maybe that’s what the dairy industry is doing to promote consumption.

[@spiral-m]

Yes, plenty of evidence for that!

[@leviotten]

its true that a lot of research surrounding dairy is funded by the dairy industry. I do not consume dairy, but im sure in the right context its ok. For most people, they should just avoid it. for example, me being half-indonesian sets a baseline that its best to just stay away from dairy altogether.

[@Cha053ngine]

Totally agree with this. I've even seen old adverts saying high fructose corn syrup was the new best thing.

[@gribbler1695]

"The main findings of the present SR were that the consumption of milk or dairy products did not show a proinflammatory effect in healthy adults or among adults who were overweight or obese or who had MetS or T2D. In addition, long-term dairy supplementation showed a weak anti-inflammatory effect in both populations." Ref: Milk and Dairy Product Consumption and Inflammatory Biomarkers: An Updated Systematic Review of Randomized Clinical Trials (Advances in Nutrition, 2019)

[@Stangya888]

What about the hormones in dairy? Milk is produced by pregnant animals. What about antibiotics and growth hormones in dairy? Also, why do you think it is less inflammatory, whilst there are inflammatory cow cells in milk…psomatic cell count that are acceptable are sky high in the west.

[@Ali-ps8rm]

In the UK neither growth hormones or antibiotic growth promoters are allowed in dairy feeds. If antibiotics are needed to treat eg. Mastitis, the milk must be strictly withdrawn from sale. Likewise for high cell counts. It may be different in the US.

[@stisca]

​@@Ali-ps8rmthe feed doesn't need to have hormones. Pregnant mammals are more than capable of creating hormones themselves.

[@mariettebardoel5225]

⁠@@Ali-ps8rmSame goes for Canada, no growth hormones, if antibiotics need to be used the milk is discarded

[@IrinaFlowers-dc3fj]

Same in Europe

[@jocelynefaille7426]

We are having a free trade conflict in Canada with the US. They want us to buy their milk but they use hormones and Canadians don’t want it. Canadian milk is free of hormones and antibiotics. We have a logo on the containers if there is a blue cow, it is 100% Canadian milk.

[@dawnlupton2416]

The yogurt aisle in supermarkets drives me mad! Companies are selling products which are not live, so don’t have the health benefits but pushing them as a healthy food. Children’s ones are the worst. The space on the shelf for actual yogurt is tiny and it’s hard to find. Drives me mad and makes me angry and sad.

[@carolsmith2]

Very interesting conversation.

[@javadivawithdog]

Plain whole milk Greek yogurt and chia seeds daily has made a big change in my health.

[@jakobw135]

You didn't mention the evidence that shows consuming dairy increases igf-1 and other metabolic issues including chronic inflammation - not to mention the detrimental effects of the natural and artificial hormones in the product Again, why don't you interview doctors Michael Greger and Neil Barnard to mention two who have the evidence on the other side of this issue? After all, are you not interested in some measure of objectivity?

[@ocelotcat]

I totally agree with you...... I found this information here rather stunning.

[@spiral-m]

and lactose intolerance? (didn't listen until end)

[@jp7357]

You forgot the link between dairy and prostate cancer …

[@sarahwhiting325]

Really didn’t know that can you share the evidence/ studies please 🙏

[@garyroebuck3951]

Yes I gave up dairy when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Look at the work done by Prof Jane Plant, also women who have had breast cancer can reduce recurrence by giving up dairy.

[@jp7357]

@@garyroebuck3951 hope you find a way thru …

[@karadevereux1049]

And breast cancer - no mention of the estrogen in cow's milk as milk comes from continuously pregnant cows.

[@jp7357]

@@sarahwhiting325 google wont let me post links but it’s a easy search .. here is the synopsis. Btw: if a guy sees a urologist about an abnormal increase in PSA he will, be told to reduce/eliminate dairy. For me at 65 and just having a friend that died of prostate cancer I’m not taking any chances, I loved milk, but not enough to risk ED, adult diapers and death. “In the Physicians' Health Study, which followed 21,660 men for 28 years, those consuming 2.5 servings of dairy daily had a 34% higher risk of developing prostate cancer, compared with men consuming half a serving or less. Whole milk intake was associated with risk of progression to fatal disease after diagnosis”

[@willsumnall3499]

The question for me is not if dairy is bad for me, it's whether it's bad for cattle.

[@tullochgorum6323]

That's a fair point. Which is why I buy organic and high welfare products.

[@Whistlewalk]

As a diabetic (w/heart disease) I have radically reduced the sugar in my diet along with foods where all I can really taste is the sweetness. I find that skimmed milk products taste a great deal sweeter than whole milk products, cow or goat but not so much cheese. Because I have backed off on my sugar intake over the years the taste of skimmed milk products has become repulsive. Skimmed yogurt is particularly awful. I love full fat dairy products however. I also consume fermented dairy products and enjoy them. My lipids seem to be fine over time.

[@BEASTIES50]

There’s a lot of good about this discussion but there’s also some strange stuff. It has been advertised as Tim Spector says dairy doesn’t help with fractures, but he actually says during the discussion that cheese and yoghurt are protective for fractures. Both are confused about not getting to grips with how many trials have shown that there IS a difference between full-fat and semi-skinned and skimmed when it comes to things like T2 diabetes, heart disease, stroke etc. All milks aren’t the same. I’m currently looking at a systematic review of 28 trials in the US looking at health outcomes in children from full-fat vs low fat dairy. These 28 studies point in one direction only, you can guess which if you’ve been paying attention. Sarah, particularly, makes some strange comments wrt cholesterol. Dairy does generally raise cholesterol, whichever type of dairy, she only refers to one study. This is beyond question, but the research has now moved on from "cholesterol is bad". We now know that damage to our LDL cholesterol through glycation, oxidation or desialylation are the problem, not LDL cholesterol itself, which is merely our bodies working correctly. WE damage our LDL through eating the wrong things, dairy not being one of the wrong things. Eating dairy actually increases the proportion of good LDL and reduces the proportion of damaged LDL. It sounds as if Sarah hasn’t explored this area much and is still struggling on regardless. She does however realise that these cholesterol effects lead to improved outcomes from dairy rather than the PREDICTED bad outcomes. The prediction is where the problem lies. Overall, not a bad discussion, but a little disappointing in all honesty.

[@wendyrowland7787]

Apparently there is evidence that pumping up patients who have osteoporosis, with vit D and calcium is counter productive in the absence of vit K2. The calcium needing somewhere to go, forms arterial plaque.

[@Etcetheral]

"you can guess which if you’ve been paying attention" : why don't you say it? I don't want to pay attention to such a lengthy muddled discussion.

[@steve6375]

at 11:00 Tim does not say 'dairy' he says 'milk'. I think he is saying that fermented dairy (cheese/yoghurt) can be beneficial (as he is very much into the microbiome!). They didnt even touch on the fact that there are two types of dairy (cows) milk. Modern Holstein\cross-breed cows milk (95% of what we drink with Type A1 beta-casein) vs. Jersey cows milk (which has protein similar to human milk, goats milk and sheep milk, etc. A2 b-casein). I.e. most of us drink mutant cow milk which contains a mutant protein not seen by humans or cows until the last century. However, there is only weak evidence that Holstein A1 milk is worse for us - e.g. causing inflammation/intolerance.

[@madeinengland1212]

@@Etcetheralwe live in chilling times. People are scared to say milk is good for you. If this goes on too long the whole structure of the free society will collapse taking all our advantages with it. Unfortunately this crowd’s urban buddies are part of that

[@tanyasydney2235]

@@Etcetheral Sounds like you haven't been paying attention.

[@azmrl]

Not addressed: the massive weight on global warming and water use of dairy. the heavy environmental impact of feed grown for dairy, including herbicides and over application of fertilizers. The human health impact of large scale dairy operations including the treatment of waste and pollution of ground and surface water. The multi-national hold on the dairy industry and advertising. the moral aspect of veal - the confinement of male dairy animal breeds. It’s not all about us. We share the planet.

[@arallskiant9923]

Obviously no one should consume dairy as science says... - Health/biology is also zoonoses, ecology(one health model) and acknowldging sentience - All SFA, transfat are unhealthy untill some potential weird/niche insignificant speficity could be established. (becareful of lobbies trying to skew the science, with mechanistic fringe speculation, unhealthy placebo etc) - Philosophicaly we all know veganism>carnism (so abide by reason/logic) - Dairy isn't a plant so has no fiber (and phytonutrients etc) therefore is inferior but people can still smoke in moderation and be healthy I guess yes (so even more for salt free and fat free dairy etc) - One can still dogmaticaly/egoistically decide to avoid plant milk and be healthy if you are part of the tiny (north european) minority that digest lactose, isn't allergic to dairy proteins (and worry about casomorphins, map mycobacterium and diabetes of all types etc), not prone to acne, no environment/genetics prone to prostate/ovarian/breast cancer, asthma, parkinson.

[@sectionalsofa]

I'm not vegan but I'm largely plant based and appreciate this comment. Very well stated.

[@vatsmith8759]

@@arallskiant9923 We don't know, philosophically or otherwise, that 'veganism > carnism'; some think it does, others don't.

[@lord-lala]

also veganism is bigger than carnism? 🤔

[@lord-lala]

@@arallskiant9923 huh?

[@louisehibbert9768]

I know it is just one anecdote but my friend had breast cancer, and when she did an experiment to cut out dairy it stopped growing, and then started growing again when she went back onto it. I just wish her doctors had been more interested and actually recorded her experience officially 🙄

[@fl3693]

HORMONES pumped into cows that are unnatural and the drinking of another animals mothers milk is revolting and highly likely to pass on its own genetic issues. Also the prostaglandins and oestrogen issues are rife. SO sorry to hear your friend is ill.

[@yabbadabbadoo8225]

@@fl3693 In that train of thought then you'd better stop eating all together ? Name any plant or food item coming to markets today without chems being added? Name just one item??? Not even drinking water is kosher anymore unless you drink rainwater from living streams or fresh lakes. Most bore water is loaded with 70 years of toxins buried in millions of dumps. Good luck finding Pure anywhere these days.

[@Ruby-qn6yh]

Have you read The China Study? Casein, the protein in dairy has been proven to cause cancer growth. And removing it stops or slows cancer growth

[@emh8861]

I did that with my kids. When I stopped giving them milk they stopped growing. When I did they started growing. Not kidding.

[@hazeljohnston8438]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend and hope she's well now. There's a very interesting book by Jane Plant "Your Life in Your Hands", covering this subject.

[@jreyhert255]

I love the Zoe podcasts , and really appreciate the time spent by everyone putting them together for the general public. I just listened to this one and am now very confused as I have just finished reading 'The China Study' by Professor T Colin Campbell , one of the most comprehensive studies of health and nutrition ever conducted and it implies that dairy consumption ( along with animal protein' ) is DETRIMENTAL to our health? The evidence in the book ( hundreds of studies from all over the world going back many years , written by well respected scientists and doctors ) is compelling . Please can Tim and Sarah give their advice on this as after losing so many dear friends and loved ones to cancer , I am trying to understand the 'mechanics' behind what 'initiates' and 'promotes' cancer, and this book gives a clear and concise message of hope for a healthy life . Thank you x

[@pilatesfitness8766]

When I read the China Study, I was very puzzled that he made the jump from CASEIN is causing tumours to enlarge and become stage 4 in mice, but he then concluded that ALL ANIMAL PROTEIN was the problem. Take with a grain of salt...

[@Rose_Ou]

Dr. Campbell focused on isolated casein and not the dairy in all its complexity. However, dairy used to give me many problems in the past but I ate LOTS of other animal products, too, so it might have been something else, a combination of foods or just the wrong types of dairy (lots of ice cream!). I've been 99% plant based since May and most of my health problems, including terrible cystic acne, are gone. I managed to reintroduce dairy but this time I decided to eat it in small portions, not every day, and only sheep/goat dairy type. I eat approx. 50 -100 g of feta cheese with salads per week and my old health issues don't seem to be coming back. This time I'm going to stick to the small amount but eaten pretty regularly. Eggs were definitely as big if not bigger of a culprit, let alone filled with hormones and antibiotics meat. I love variety of plants and this is exactly how I eat now, so a little bit of dairy is all I need as far as animal foods are concerned.

[@iamKevRL]

I'll stick to plants and leave the dairy for the calves. However, this was informative. Thanks for posting.

[@panes840]

​@@Rose_Ou why oh why have you introduced it?????? Dairy back in??? Why??? It's baby calf juice!!! Why can't you get your calcium elsewhere????? Why!!! Fear you'll die or something. I get 40% of my calcium in the morning for breakfast without fortified plant milk. Youvevproven your body can do brilliantly without it so why go back. It's horrendous for the planet. These guys are not telling the truth. Spector has really changed his tune and I suspect he's been boughtvout by animal agriculture. He's changed!!!

[@panes840]

​@@iamKevRL I agree I'll never go back to abusing the cows. What they go through is disgusting. Besides the inpactvon green house gases is off the charts. I've lost all respect for Spector. He's completely changes his agenda. His side kick Dr Will Bulsiewicz is 100% plants and thriving so I fail to see why Spector pushes dairy. Simon Hill has just this week on his channel interviewed a highly esteemed professor saying dairy is linked to breast cancer and prostate. Personally I'd rather get my calcium from plants and skip the hormones, IGF1, growth hormones, antibiotics and leave the poor animals alone. I can't prove it but I suspect Spector is getting sponsored by industry. that doesn't want to see its profits slump.

[@RoxyKnits]

So a large percentage of the population can’t tolerate dairy…..so it is definitely bad for all those. Even lactose free cheese makes my asthma worse so it’s not just the lactose. My husband has switched from milk as he constantly has to clear his throat if he drinks it, he’s not asthmatic or lactose intolerant either.

[@chillitunabake17]

Exactly, me too.

[@AngelTyraelGM]

you might not have a lactose intolerance in that case, cheese or dairy products in generals have alot of stuff like cultures of bacteria, molds, or yeasts, and another thing is people who stop eating them for years, if they suddenly add a big amount they can feel bad, just try small pieces and sips, if u have no issues keep increasing the amount every week consistently and see if you continue to have no issues or if u do get issues despite taking it as slow as possible, i thaught i had a lactose intolerance with milk but after 6 months i build myself up to 3 cups a day with no issues no bloating no gas no nothing

[@RoxyKnits]

@@AngelTyraelGM I can’t digest milk any amount milk makes me vomit. Same with cheese etc I definitely have a lactose intolerance but it also worsens my asthma. At the beginning Tim says it’s harder to digest after the age of 3……because it’s just not needed then. I also choose to eat a vegan diet after being vegetarian for a long time, and why I know cheese also affects my asthma.

[@veramentegina]

then it is casein(protein in milk) allergy if he is drinking cow milk (A1 protein).. He might be ok with goat or sheep or jersey cow (A2 protein) milk. If that doesn't work, then only camel milk for him (casein in camel milk has completely different make up, so it seems to be tolerated by people who have casein allergy)..

[@TTR83]

​@@RoxyKnitsIf it makes you vomit then it is psychological issue not that you can't digest milk. I wonder what makes you eat a vegan diet and discard all animal source foods. A vegan diet needs great amount of supplements too which is very unhealthy. Makes no sense.

[@cgmp5764]

It would be useful if you included some references to key trial data supporting your arguments.

[@Nyatimira]

They won't because this isnt as science based as they want you to think, they are just trying to sell their product.

[@liliancalo3518]

Hellow fellows, greetings from Brazil. I’d like to say that I found your channel a few days ago on KZbin while looking for scientific content regarding nutrition. I am enjoying your podcast so much, the scientific accuracy and the rigor and sympathy of the specialists invited are hard to find on the web. Thank you so much and please allow a foreigner to join your audience! ❤

[@whowinshere]

Thank you Tim for touching on the mechanical processing of our milk, this together with homogenisation and filtering means it tastes different to when I was a kid and has an unnatural shelf life compared to the three days of old. Its UPF. I would love to see milk tested for trace elements and enzymes from cows that are mob grazed on a higher diversity of plants, compared to nitrogen enriched grass/cereal fed ones. My bet is they also produce less methane - surely the result of a cows depleted microbiome. Am unclear why it's ok to have raw milk cheese but not raw milk, but more labelling stating the mechanical origin of all the derived products would be helpful, then we could see how "natural" they are. There's got to be a reason so many people are dairy intolerant now.

[@andreahodson7031]

Raw milk is very good and tasty

[@joycebrewer4150]

@@andreahodson7031 Only if the dairy cows are healthy.

[@rowandowland1391]

An interesting conversation that's left me more confused than informed on some aspects. I eat all types of dairy but avoid all forms of low fat dairy including milk as I believed after watching so many different health vlogs that the evidence tells us we should be less concerned about cholesterol and fat and far more concerned about the risk of sugar to our health. Indeed so much low fat dairy includes sugar. What's more the fixation on cholesterol (apart from SdLDL) rather than avoiding sugar is leading to poor health outcomes. I'm therefore on the side of Tim and see no justification consuming highly processed low fat dairy products. I also believe dairy should be organic and that the animals need to be grass fed. Happy to be told otherwise... (I am over 60 in excellent health and on no medications of any type)

[@edwardkennedy9919]

John yudkin a British scientist wrote a book called pure, white and deadly warning us of the dangers of sugar this was in 1970

[@MrLeedebt]

I decided to switch to soy milk. However, it is full of sugar.

[@edwardkennedy9919]

You are spot on there I live in ireland and I get raw cow's milk

[@edwardkennedy9919]

@@MrLeedebt I drink raw cow's milk.

[@MrLeedebt]

Interestingly, growing up I drank it too. We got it from our grandfather who ran a few cows. Dairy milk wasn't part of the human diet until cows became domesticated. Even now some people can't tolerate it. For me the alternatives are not the best in terms of taste or content. Soy (or other plant-based milk) with lots of sugar or green tea, which I don't like that much. Then I have to decide what to have with, say, porridge or muesli. One way I have made a massive difference to my cholesterol has been taking Meta mucil, initially to prevent impacted feces. It actually says on the container that it lowers cholesterol. Post a quadruple bypass the specialist doctor totally dismissed my claim that I was not taking cholesterol-lowering medication. @@edwardkennedy9919

[@toms8879]

the first myth is the dairy is not a food for humans but for baby calves.

[@sarahwhiting325]

Yep just as some plants veggies are food for animals

[@sarahwhiting325]

Sorry was just saying it’s daft to say certain foods are maybe not for humans 👍

[@spiral-m]

@@sarahwhiting325 Not found in nature - anywhere. For survival, OK. For taste buds and tradition, perverse: From a recent German study: Organic animals also get sick en masse. Translation "A similar picture emerges for other livestock: up to 39 percent of all dairy cows suffer from painful hoof diseases. Inflammation of the udder was found in every second dairy cow in an organic barn. Up to 97 percent of all laying hens have broken bones - in cages as well as in organic farming. Eggs, milk and meat from these sick animals still end up in supermarkets in large numbers, without consumers being aware of this." (not even as bad as the situation in the USA) foodwatch-report-auch-bio-tiere-masseshaft-krank/

[@vkman34]

Great discussion thanks. I particularly appreciated the fact that Sarah and Tim did not agree on everything, this is what you'd expect from scientists. Also liked that Sarah chimed in with her experience of trying to make healthy choices when you have children, and that compromises are necessary sometimes.

[@nancytaylor3837]

I 😮😮

[@nancytaylor3837]

Ww😮a 😊😊😢 awww we 0:49 0:49 a w 🎉😢 a

[@nancytaylor3837]

I don’t i

[@nancytaylor3837]

I 😊

[@sciencelad8286]

What choice does the cow have? A life of inprisonment, torture and abuse, then when they steal everything that is possible to be stolen from her, and is not "profitable" anymore, she gets shot in the head and her throat slit.

[@franceseaton9627]

Great advice, as always. Thank you.

[@alexYT87462]

Thanks for continuing to tackle such difficult/complex/confusing topics in such a sensible way. The actionable insights and pragmatic/sensible tips are of great value so thanks for adding those in. What would also be super helpful would be to also cover the practical things that people themselves can look for on an individualized basis (ie without having to do blood/allergy tests etc.....) to gain initial insight into how one is reacting to ingesting dairy/or foods more generally. I know that's also a very tricky thing to cover as everyone reacts to things in a different/their own individually unique ways....but it would be easy enough to caveat suggestions by noting this upfront. As an example stool formation and smell variations may give some quite good generalised insights into how your digestive system is dealing with foods ingested. Not definitive...but a good practical starting point that everyone can check for themselves (as unpleasant as that is 😅). Keep up the great work. Btw... question for Dr Berry....in terms of the future of science/medicine/nutrition, what role does she see for a more personalized approach (eg gene profiling...not sure that is the correct scientific term...but hopefully you know what i mean) vs the large scale studies/randomized.

[@stevelanghorn1407]

Fascinating how “expert” advice regarding the “perils” of full-fat dairy & saturated fat has changed over the decades.

[@scrumptious9673]

Thanks for presenting this discussion

[@amskhan1829]

Love this, to the point and very informative.

[@Just4AZ1]

I am soon to be 70 and have drunk milk all my life, up to a gallon or more a week. I buy organic only and pasture raised when I can. No health issues. I am also a fitness and nutrition nut.

[@jamesfielden4935]

Hot milk is dramatically favourable to consume than cold milk. Any ice cold drink is bad for your body

[@ukestudio3002]

@@jamesfielden4935 According to med news I study in 2014 reported that Ice slush beverage was better performance than drinking water at a neutral temperature ..who knew ?

[@tonyhodgkinson4586]

I went back to full fat milk a while back and never eat anything low fat.

[@ellie698]

From as early as I can remember I had eczema on my lower legs and to keep the tagged and itching under control I had to use cortisone cream every day. I got diagnosed with MS at around forty and gave up dairy at reading George Jelinek's book. I don't know if doing that has helped with the progression of the MS but after a few months of going dairy free my eczema completely cleared up for the first time in my life and has remained clear ever since. I was never diagnosed with any allergy. My doctor was happy for me to keep getting prescriptions using the hydrocortisone for thirty years 🙄

[@22poopoo]

I've not watched the whole video through yet. But my experience with dairy is that it has a definite effect on my skin health. Dairy and high glycaemic carbs increase acne lesions, and many others have reported the same. If I eat cheese the next day I will certainly have a deep acne spot. I think genetics especially APOE gene has a lot to do with it. I have APOE4. Another thing to consider is that effect might not be directly through inflammation ie Casein and whey normally increase insulin, insulin like growth factor, and as a result androgens (which makes sebum more sticky). Although these dairy proteins also increase MTOR pathway, so I see it as dairy is anabolic, in excess this is associated with inflammation. But the good thing ZOE are doing is realising that a food is a food, cheese is not merely 'casein' etc, foods are complex and nuances. Also think quality is imperative. Organic vs no organic (added hormones, antibiotics etc). Homogenised vs non homogenised (fat particles too small and pass through gut without proper digestion). Another very interesting thing I found when reading about the history of dairy years ago, was that in the UK, the Victorians romanticised dairy, they saw it as a link to their pre industrial past. Romantic image of cows and milk maids. They popularised drinking liquid milk. Before this it was rare to see records of people drinking milk. In medieval times it was know that drinking milk was hard on stomach. Milk was eaten as cheese or butter or used in cooking. From the perspective of traditional Chinese medicine, foods are not seen as good or bad (very wise) they are seen as possessing qualities. The suitability of their consumption depends on the syndrome a patient is displaying. Also the climate, constitution etc of the patient. Dairy would be contraindicated in TCM diagnosis of dampness, phlegm or weak spleen. Conversely cheese for example, would be useful to tonify deficient yin and qi. Seeing the appropriateness of effects of food rather then 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' is I think a lesson we should learn, that modern science is just re-remembering.

[@elainejarvie5458]

My husband and I gave up all animal food five years ago. We’re currently on the Zoe program. Our question is what about the hormones given to most dairy cattle and also what about the effect of cattle on the environment. These need to be considered as well. We do have an open mind and think that perhaps kefir may be a good addition for our diet.

[@emh8861]

So many variables. Be your own study. Eat and write things down. How you feel. Blood tests. Etc etc etc

[@mrscpc1918]

@@MajesticArtimusthe effects of phytoestrogens on the body is markedly different from the hormones in dairy though isn’t it ?

[@veganne6909]

The anti-inflammatory effects of kefir come from the bacteria, so why not eat fermented plant foods? Sauerkraut, kimchi, fermented plant-based drinks?

[@spiral-m]

@@MajesticArtimus add in ecological collapse and abuse of animals then the picture becomes clearer. "do you realise how much 'hormones' are in all foods anyway?" Hormones in apples? Wasn't aware of that!

[@spiral-m]

Kefir can be done plant-based

[@awizenwoman]

SOURCES please? Not just 'surveys say'!

[@markdemariassy8685]

Great podcast, thanks. The thing I always never understood about the drive to move away from full fat milk, is that full fat milk is only 4% fat! 4%!

[@gwyneth7812]

My mother and father were chalk and cheese Mum bought skimmed milk - dad said he wouldn't drink that 'watered down rubbish'.. Mother said 'everything in moderation', father said 'INCLUDING moderation' 🙃

[@tactileslut]

Once I finally found a yogurt with 10% fat I never went back. Unsweetened, of course, though I might add blueberries.

[@joycebrewer4150]

That is 4% by weight, not 4% by % of total calories in whole milk.

[@NancyCronk]

My health improved drastically after giving up dairy. That is all the evidence I need.

[@stellaspetch9085]

Very interesting but I wish they'd mentioned how many people have switched to alternative milks like oat/soya etc and what benefits or not this has?

[@magsie44]

Current global consumption of dairy is unsustainable and is playing a considerable part in global warming. You are asking the wrong question. It isn't a question of whether dairy is "good" or "bad" for us, but whether we need so much dairy consumption and whether we could substitute most of the dairy with other nutritious alternatives.

[@tommystevenson2921]

very interesting information and helpful

[@bonsummers2657]

Raw dairy is key. Non heated raw dairy,…. or not heated higher than 'fever temperature', if any heating is done. I find raw dairy, raw milk particularly, best non-refrigerated. Let it wild culture-ferment at ambient room temp. Have the bottle or container the milk is be about 1/2 full / 1/2 empty, for adequate air. Give it a couple days or so, it's prime. I have excellent digestion with raw cultured dairy. Pasteurized / homogenized gunk lymph, veins, joints,..., which leads to diseasements due to gunking.

[@hedykrsevac7564]

I totally agree with Tim. Kefir is so easily done at home. Five minutes work either in the morning or evening whatever suits your life style. I make ours very thick like yoghurt or sour cream. It is more tart than the more liquid form but if served with berries and nuts; utterly delicious. I also use it instead of sour cream.

[@ruthlogan1494]

Do you have a recipe you could share? Thanks!

[@hedykrsevac7564]

@@ruthlogan1494 The reason why I came up with this version of kefir is because milk products have a tendency to get me constipated. This thicker version of kefir doesn't have that effect on me. I use 50g of kefir grains to 300g full fat milk, ferment for 24 hours at room temperature. Multiply the amount if you want more kefir. The milk solids will seperate from the whey. Don't be alarmed. Pour the whole lot into a fine strainer and let it sit for a few minutes. Empty the whey from your bowl. With a soft spatula keep scraping the kefir grains in your strainer catching the milk solids underneath. Your don't need to throw away the whey. Your pet will love it or you can distribute it amongst your plants in the garden.

[@ruthlogan1494]

Thank you so much!!

[@valerielambert7922]

@@hedykrsevac7564 will try that, thanks!

[@ZsuzsaKarolySmith]

@@ruthlogan1494you can also make your own Greek strained yoghurt! I’ve just tried this for the first time very successfully! Loads of videos on KZbin showing you how to do it!

[@zkoivu]

Thank you all for another enlightening episode. It left me wondering about the difference in energy/calorie content between low-fat and full-fat dairy (esp. milk). Does full-fat dairy lead to full-fat bodies? Can it help in gaining (my husband) or losing (my mother) weight? 🥛

[@amaracardamine3837]

Full fat satisfies for longer so you wd not get hungry as quickly thereby eating less overall.

[@greggbambu411]

The reason millk is potentially unhealthy is because it affects our hormonal health. Milk is good for baby cows that need to grow perhaps less so for us. Certain cancers like prostate abs breast are influenced by hormones.

[@ccoodd26]

That's only processed milk with hormones or if the person can't digest the milk. Processed added sugar is the main culprit in ruining people's hormones.

[@tupscolls776]

Fascinating! Wow! Thanks!

[@dandy8308]

It would be so good if you linked the studies that you refer to so we can share and evidence your statements to our friends and family!

[@sladflob]

Seconded. Please provide references.

[@user-dm5zf8wt2s]

Why would you want to have milk with so many chemicals in it ( fed to cows) - we get enough chemicals/toxins in food. That's without the ethical aspects of cows producing milk for us.

[@vatsmith8759]

Most cows wouldn't exist if we didn't drink their milk.

[@michelles2299]

Organic

[@retired_early]

Because we like it?

[@HighNLo]

We don't all way to be pencil neck vegans with the posture of a 90 year old at 60.

[@mnjammnjamm]

Very refreshing to have a group of people just talk about our current knowledge of health issues and health benefits of dairy. Many people are just obsessed with their own opinions nowadays, and don't allow themselves to look at the facts first.

[@sue.F]

Zoe is fond of “key takeaways” mine would be - trust your body and instincts. Some people don’t do well on dairy, for others it’s beneficial, we are all uniquely individual.

[@mrscpc1918]

What about the cancer promoting effects of dairy protein ( as shown in the epic China Study )? The body can regulate its own cholesterol surely.

[@julianshepherd2038]

Epic? What makes it "epic"

[@mrscpc1918]

@@julianshepherd2038 “The New York Times has recognized the study as the “Grand Prix of epidemiology” and the “most comprehensive large study ever undertaken of the relationship between diet and the risk of developing disease.” Hope this helps. Check it out it’s well worth it.

[@foggycraw6758]

Im curious too

[@Debbieanne51]

Definitely an ethical issue for me !!

[@tullochgorum6323]

The China Study book is notorious for Campbell's cavalier misuse of his data. He is a dogmatic hater of dairy and set out to prove his point. And given the quality of scientific journalism, the NYT endorsement you quote means very little.

[@careena8242]

I'd love some links to the studies mentioned in the podcast. Is that possible?

[@user-bf9dd5lz8y]

Brilliant episode! Can’t wait for my Zoe kit to arrive 🙌🏼

[@stevegreenwood8168]

And how's it going?

[@cazwalden1497]

I am a child of the 70's, Mum always cooked from scratch and we have very little "fast food" in our diets. I have cooked from scratch as much as possible in my adult life, more so as i have gotten older and am more particular about what goes in our mouths. We pay more attention to ingredients in the the foods we buy and have reduced our processed foods a great deal by home cooking more. This podcast was particularly interesting as we do like our cheese and have been worried about the effects of eating it. We do eat a little and often though so i was pleased to hear we are not harming ourselves after all. I think we need new lessons on what foods are beneficial as what we have been taught over the last 50 years seems very out of date. A gut friendly certified sticker would be great 👍

[@sirimcmick4564]

Hi Zoe Team, is there any evidence that homogenized and unhomogenized milk differs in terms of health? I can't remember anyone with dairy intolerance when milk still came with top of the milk in the sixties and seventies - is there any connection in research? As a farmer I know it not advised to allow calves to drink homogenized milk as not digestible.

[@timelord5920]

Worth noting that back then we also had green top milk, which is what we call raw milk today and is thought to have similar benefits to fermented dairy.

[@Cha053ngine]

Totally agree. It's probably not the milk as such. It's what's been done to it. And what we eat with it. And how often we move and go outside and sling a hay bale onto a tractor. Modern food is generally complete 💩. We should ban all of these convenience foods, fast foods, and all the added stuff. Just eat meat and veg. (And dairy)

[@marthaj9425]

I really enjoy listening to you guys. You have the right blend of expertise and humility. Keep it up, it’s incredibly important! Thanks.

[@kcharltonful]

What about home made cottage cheese, it's easy to make?

[@dorothybutterfield8428]

That was brilliant thank you

[@RSLtreecare]

Thank you, very helpful. I have made lots of notes...I was lucky, I grew up on a mixed dairy farm. The milk was collected in churns. We as children had Gold top milk, silver top. Now, we use half fat. As for cheese. The family likes small amounts of higher quality cheese, plus goats cheese. We all like yogurt and add our own fruit and nuts. There's a mix where I come to butter...I grew up eating a small amount. We now eat both...I would drop it if it's better to do so.

[@LoveLife-sz2hc]

Thank you for explaining the science clearly and for busting myths. The entire series has been valuable so far

[@Hardiarm]

How do you know you are not being misled?

[@Bieggaoaivi]

@@Hardiarm They dont, they just follow the ones that support the bad habits, the dairy industries are doing everything to keep people drinking that shit.

[@mosfet500]

They are!@@Hardiarm

[@dananskidolf]

Perhaps worth mentioning there are reasons besides the fat for your doctor to be telling you to cut down on dairy - the calcium, phosphate, protein and potassium are of concern in kidney disease. I'd like to follow up on a few things for next time you discuss dairy: Does cultured butter carry similar benefits to the fermented dairy mentioned? Advice on consuming these gut-beneficial bacteria under the complications of IBD / Crohn's. Could you _clarify_ your position on butter vs ghee? (yes. I went there.)

[@yeyeoyeye6039]

One thing that concerns me about milk & dairy is that I’ve heard dairy herds are often fed a lot of antibiotics, often to treat or prevent mastitis. If this is true then what impact is this having on our gut micro-biome? Have any studies been done on this? Also what impact is this having on bugs developing resistance to antibiotics? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.

[@lizhallworth3854]

Totally agree. And all the pus remains in the milk - yummy!

[@whiteleopard1713]

Have you ever thought what antibiotics do to cow's gut microbiome? And why do they get so sick in the first place? Yes certain kinds of antibiotics kill some strains of bacteria in the gut microbiome causing imbalance in the gut flora and lots of other health issues for cows same for us humans!

[@rhatid]

I always buy organic but I'm far from sure that this avoids the antibiotic problem. I need to get my own cow!😂 or even better, goat🤣

[@joycebrewer4150]

I am a small dairy farmer's daughter. My dad never used hormones to increase milk production. He did have a problem keeping his herd mastitis free. This may have been due to inadequate cleanliness in the milking parlor. He never used antibiotics preventively, but when a cow came up ill, he would divert her milk from the supply sold to our creamery until at least the fourth day after her final treatment for mastitis. By which time there would be only trace amounts of antibiotics in her system, if any. I have toured a modern dairy, where they use collars on their dairy cows, that track the individual cow's behavior via computer monitoring, and say that this allows them to be aware of problems with a cow's health sooner than an old fashioned farmer looking at his herd twice a day. The affected cow would be isolated in a separate box stall until recovered. They also use computers to control automatic barn cleaner systems, feed blending programs for different parts of the large herd with differing nutritional needs. Etc.

[@denisescutt1865]

Casein

[@eddiebrady6351]

Dairy is a horribly cruel industry. Shame on all of you for ignoring this…

[@nicolabenson1155]

And no mention of environmental issues

[@cheynellebeale8393]

Agree

[@tim1398]

Milk lacks K2, which needed to pull the calcium into the bones. K2 is found in leafy greens, and fermented foods. So yogurt and cheeses may be beneficial, and if supplementing with K2 it may not matter as much the source.

[@MsRoustine]

K2 is found in meat and other animal products

[@ekondigg6751]

You need K2 And adequate Vitamin D for that. K2 won't help if you're Vit D deficient.

[@shhhness]

I take k2 +d3 in one supplement capsule daily. Rotterdam Study has so much information on many ailments linked to the lack of k2. Very interesting recent major large scale research study on health.

[@bcleeanderson]

In your future episode, could you please specify each expert's credential? For example, is Dr. Sarah Berry a MD? Also, which area of expertise is Professor Tim Spector in?

[@Tyler-iu7fu]

Google

[@juliebrooke6099]

Tim Spector is a professor in genetics. Sarah Berry is a nutrition research scientist.

[@bcleeanderson]

@@juliebrooke6099 Thanks, Julie, for your quick response! :)

[@olafkunert3714]

"For example, is Dr. Sarah Berry a MD? Also, which area of expertise is Professor Tim Spector in?" What credential is a MD in a scientific discussion? Many MDs on KZbin a mere influencers. You should check on Google Scholar whether somebody has done actual research in the field and check if somebody can provide good reseach papers for their arguments.

[@LaurieB979]

Also saturated fat from cacao doesn't seem to have a negative impact. Maybe it's not the saturated fat, but something else we're not aware if yet? Or complletely non food related at all...

[@meenaparkash9670]

I’m Indian but born and bread in England and my grandma would always insist on having full fat milk, probably because in India they drink full fat milk straight from a buffalo or a cow.

[@vegitossj2011]

True, I agree. I hated drinking buffalo milk in India..... The smell😂

[@meenaparkash9670]

😂😂👍

[@jobl5505]

Absolutely brilliant show. So refreshing to see saturated fat not being demonised. For that alone it just super.

[@epicvegan986]

People love hearing good things about their bad habits.

[@nickturnock3369]

They said that the saturated fat in milk is not hamful, they didn't say saturated fat isn't harmful. Never the less I only use lard for frying on the grounds that it is stable at higher temperatures than every vegetable oil.

[@jessip8654]

@@epicvegan986 The message of the show was "eat high quality cheese infrequently" not "jam 64 kraft slices down your gullet like you're Homer Simpson." Saturated fat in small doses is fine and probably even good.

[@tanyasydney2235]

@@epicvegan986 Brilliant. Why don't you come up with your own silly little ditty!

[@cassieoz1702]

I thought that saturated fat was no longer a 'nutrient of concern' with respect to heart disease. The sat fat dogma is disproven but taking a long time to be dislodged

[@maryhobbs9507]

I was dairy free 20 years and tried it again recently to confirm I'm definitely dairy intolerant. I wish there a way round it. All the dairy-free ulternatives are full of UPFs (ultra processed foods).

[@ZsuzsaKarolySmith]

True - also oat milk is off the charts as far as the glycemic index is concerned - thanks to its maltose content, which is a naturally occurring sugar with a GI of 105! I only noticed this when I started tracking my blood glucose - there's no warning on the label! And oat milk is by far the tastiest alternative to dairy in your hot drinks - bummer!

[@angelaclifton7609]

Avoiding dairy doesn't mean you have to use dairy-free alternatives or ultra-processed foods, A wholefood plant-based diet is wonderful for your health and doesn't need to mimic milk, butter, cheese (all of which are totally unnatural in a human's diet anyway!)

[@louisehibbert9768]

Organic soya milk is made from just soya beans and water and will give you about the same amount of protein as cow milk plus a bit of fibre too 🙂

[@markgriffiths2598]

It would be great to get a link in the description for the RCTs discussed

[@wardude01509]

That was a really good discussion...

[@suewilkinson910]

I love diary. I love to drink milk, full fat milk. For 12 months I gave it up because a nutritionist told me I'd feel better. I was miserable. The dismal state of tea and coffee with nut milks.... Yuck! My mother was a dairy farmer. My favourite thing was to dip a mug into a fresh churn and drink the milk straight from the cow. I now drink raw milk and eat butter and cheese at every opportunity.

[@craigo5030]

It’s a shame for the dairy cows with the amount of exploitation tht happens

[@ritamorim100]

I dont beli3ve. Just bl bla-bla-bla. Milk cow is only for thei4 babies Get milk from your mother, so

[@runninblue9415]

How can you side step the morality question of how brutal the dairy industry is and recommend it?my other criticism is the lack of a debating structure for these presentations. It's so one sided, rather than having to represent/ justify your findings in vigorous debate.

[@jamesmontague4770]

This was really enjoyable to watch and listen to and has gave me some food (excuse the pun) for thought on how I look at what I’m eating.

[@sandrapeverelle8066]

From a biology perspective, it makes little sense that humans should drink milk from a different species that grows around 40 times the rate of humans. Even baby cows don't continue to drink their mothers' milk. They eat grass and grow up to be strong healthy cows. I'm glad Tim brought up the lack of evidence between bone mineral density and dairy consumption and its associated fracture risk. No other species continues to drink milk once they are weaned. Too many association studies which do not show causality are quoted for me.

[@SA-cloud]

Everyone is different. I gave up drinking milk because I had no choice, it makes me feel sick. One day I had a coffee from my local coffee shop, and it tasted really bad. I called the shop thinking they had a back batch of milk to warn them. A few days later I had another coffee with milk, same thing. This is after drinking it since school. As for allergies I know one child that is allergic to milk, like if milk was taken it would kill them, a pin prick test comes up immediately. Actually, even milk chocolate tastes horrible now, dark is fine (good quality dark chocolate is where it's at anyways 😅).

[@PascalisP]

100% chocolate addict here 😎👌

[@kahyui2486]

What brand chocolate do u buy

[@SA-cloud]

@@kahyui2486 If it's chocolate usually anything with 55% or above chocolate content. And no milk in the ingredients. It depends which country you are in though.

[@adamkiley100]

What about growth hormones in Diary? I heard there was a link to breast cancer

[@garyroebuck3951]

And Prostate Cancer.

[@juliebrooke6099]

Move to Europe where we don’t allow growth hormones.

[@adamkiley100]

@@juliebrooke6099 they take the growth hormones and IGF1 factors out of the milk? Are u sure?! The growth hormones occur naturally because they are in the mothers milk

[@valerielambert7922]

I've been looking out for the 'butter' podcast with great interest. Hoping to see it in due course!

[@rogerwhitehead1623]

Tim, Sarah, I'd be interested in your views on Esselstyn's approach to & claimed experience in heart disease.

[@mjwilliamsb2676]

One of the things in fermented dairy is vitamin K2, and K2 is good for bones, is that factor being considered?

[@chrisk8978]

Really informative, science-forward discussion today! Many thanks! Two questions perhaps to include in a follow up episode: 1) Should we try and avoid melting cheese so as not to kill the microbes prior to consumption, and 2) does mold (as in blue cheeses) influence the healthiness of a cheese?

[@ZsuzsaKarolySmith]

Good point - I never thought twice about melting cheese, but now I'm thinking maybe it's better not - although I do love a bit of baked brie!

[@karengemmadodgson2918]

The mould in blue cheese is good for your microbiome

[@brenholmes4894]

Can't wait to find out about butter. I always thought the transfats in margarine were the enemy! Very interesting, thank you. I have been reading about intermittent fasting and autophagy, but what to believe? There are some wild and whacky ideas out there!

[@andysPARK]

Thanks guys.

[@MilaDanceSport]

I love your podcast so so much. Interesting to hear these facts. However, just because we CAN have something, doesn't always mean that we should. I can only hope that we can evolve to have more compassion. 99% of dairy is produced in factory farms, and we all know what happens there, to the mothers and to the babies. Not to mention the effect cattle raising has on the planet. I know this is well intentioned, but perhaps not a good message to send to your audience. The last thing our planet and these animals need is for people who've given up dairy to now go back to consuming it. Once again, I do love love love your podcast, just do not resonate with this particular one.

[@Ali-ps8rm]

In the UK cows are out on pasture for most of the year - certainly not “factory farming”! …. In stark contrast to intensive pig & poultry farming. A lot of research at present is going into modifying ruminants to produce less methane - ie. Less intensive diets full of cereals

[@funbarsolaris2822]

​@@Ali-ps8rmPartly true, but Cows still are highly land, water and food intensive. We desperately need to reduce the footprint on all three, it's one of the least efficient and most polluting foods we can eat, if not the single most. Yes there is much land that isn't suitable for much else but ideally that would be the only beef on the global market and therefore cause beef and dairy prices to, correctly, sky rocket so that it becomes a rare luxury world wide and most beef and dairy (90% plus) would be removed from people's diet and be replaced with high efficiency, low footprint foods

[@npblosch19]

I take issue with in the UK ... so it's fine here but the US?

[@jamesjarman5003]

I live in New Zealand. Our family has a dairy farm. The cows are outside eating grass year round as are all dairy cows in new zealand. The cows walk themselves in to be milked. They produce more milk when not stressed and cared for well so that is in our interest. New Zealand is the worlds largest exporter of dairy products (most countries consume domestically what they make) so i'd disagree about 99% factory raised.

[@danieltrandafir]

Beef one of the most nutrient dense foods, definitely don't need to reduce that, and stop with the planet nonsense...

[@philhunt168]

Milk does not naturally contain iodine. It's applied to sores on the teats caused by overmilking.

[@RG-mk3ds]

What a total lie it is applied as a disinfectant at a low level why would farmers want to overmilk their cows.

[@TonyHammer61]

I was advised by my GP many, many years ago to avoid dairy as I regularly got sinusitis. He said the bacteria in dairy contributed to sinus infections. I switched to Soya milk and my sinus infections dropped to almost none at all. Do you think that is pure coincidence?

[@TEKim-lk6op]

Not a coincidence. My eczema and acne cleared up once off dairy.

[@louise3528]

I get cravings for milk and absolutely love drinking it. Can’t get enough! Full fat whole milk all the way

[@jyotsnahofmann8911]

This was very helpful because I quit dairy last year and my hormonal acne got better(in fact stopped) but it had no impact on cholesterol levels. I have 2 questions - What about the about hormones in milk? Are we referring to sheep, goat and cow dairy in this podcast?

[@chriswills9437]

The smaller the adult animal, the lower the female and growth hormone content. Most milk consumed is cow milk due to production economics.

[@georgecoster8252]

All Dairy has IGF1 Insulin Growth Fact) which makes things grow, including Cancer Cells. Say Hello to sickness/

[@chriswills9437]

@@georgecoster8252 Yes correct. It contains IGF1 and female sex hormones with the evidence that dairy consumption is linked to cancer of the sex organs in both men and women. See video below.

[@pwood6532]

​@@georgecoster8252prob denatured by HCl in your stomach .as is rBst.

[@simonc858]

I am already there with the full fat (silver top) milk and cheese and full fat natural yogurt, I will be interested to hear the butter debate as I choose this over spreads, great advice

[@stevefollin5060]

Back in the 70's we'd get Gold Top! Extra creamy milk.

[@JREH21]

Their few comments, in this discussion, about butter makes me think they will not be in favour but that would only diminish my respect for ZOE. Butter is made from just one ingredient whereas the spreads, especially margarine, have gone through complex industrial processes and mostly contain toxic oils. Regardless, I will continue to use butter.

[@simonc858]

@@JREH21 I am with you on the butter, I would much rather eat it than any spread, not only because of your points but also the taste.

[@tanishadorn6126]

I’d really appreciate the references to back up these findings, so I can compare them to wider literature and evaluate the sample sizes, funding sources, limitations etc. Without this, it’s hard to know what’s really true and whether these studies were cherry picked studies to back up their opinions and biases…

[@pepper419]

I'm seriously allergic to many things in the diet but what surprised me was to find I cannot eat cheese or drink milk without suffering severe arthritis. But butter and pure cream has no effect at all on me. Therefore I use them all the time. I'm seventy-two and have no illnesses at all now. No heart disease, or type 2. Fat doesn't make you fat. Sugar does that.

[@cherylelinsmith743]

Cows have muted to Casein A1. Goat and sheep are still Casein A2. Have. you tried Goats milk cheese? I've switched to that cheese, as cows milk cheese does not agree with my colon. The goat cheese doesn't bother my colon or digestion like cows milk.