10.2 FINAL Tier List w/ The WoW Community

[@Seprilox]

Always excited to see your class in swamp tier on the thumbmail already

[@Frawt]

Mained WW in Sepulcher and Vault. God am I glad I swapped, because Blizzard's treatment of WW is fucking vile.

[@gansta432]

I love the aesthetic of WW but monks in general are in vast need of a rework, no idea why DH and Rogue got one. MW got some nice treatment, now we just need help for brew and WW

[@KrunemGrimcleaver]

It’s so disappointing, Windwalker monk is the most fun to play spec in the game yet I’ll never be able to mail it for an expansion because of how poorly tuned they are.

[@stylishskater92]

@@gansta432 The gameplay of WW is top tier, im deeply saddened that i cant play it because im not competitive enough in higher content with it (or dont get accepted lol). They need to buff WW just a bit, not rework it really.

[@gansta432]

@@stylishskater92 there's alot of button bloat in the class and useless end caps in the talent trees, def needs a rework

[@stefaniesonck3564]

I thought my headset was breaking when your sound started bricking... Holy heart attack man. Love the tierlists as always, keep em comming!

[@JiottoCaspita]

Regarding the discussion of Chaos Brand/Mystic Touch after 5:50 If any reader was curious to know the damage profile of their group using WarcraftLogs, knowing that damage type 1 means physical, you can add to the "filter expression box": ability.type != 1 or ability.type = 1 To see only magical/physical damage, in that order

[@serge2cool]

Lol Dorki is so on it. Even his Freehold example was exactly what I was thinking RE Blood DK. If they can't let Rune Weapon be a thing they must bake in a DR or simply scale keys to allow for breathing space for Blood.

[@dacbiet]

Yep I thought I was alone on tanking high FH keys as a BDK. Those trash packs are brutal and can easily clap cheeks

[@endocry]

Tettles is the most consistent sandbagger of his class in history.

[@okguy7526]

I don't think it's intentional. Tettles just straight up isn't that great at Boomkin and is consistently the worst theorycrafter/guidewriter across almost any class/spec. Dreamgrove always has to point out issues with his guides. I don't even think he's the best Boomkin in his guild, let alone good enough to tell other people how to play Boomkin. He just has connections and friends in the right places.

[@daleecco4970]

bruh kalamazi is in this video how can you say that lol... the guy constantly makes videos on how to buff warlock no matter how far away at the top it is "b" tier class that you will see in every raid ever

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

@@okguy7526 I remember when the class discords first started and the dude doing the warlock theorycrafting was fried as hell and one of the mods was even more fried. They had shit in the sims showing better that logs clearly disproved and these dudes would keep selling it to new players asking for advice and leading them down a path that would absolutely cause them to fail. Shit was so frustrating.

[@joa7535]

I agree so much. Can't stand him. Talks so much theory but haven't seen him actually do any good on the spec. I'm a boomie main myself and would never get my info from him.@@okguy7526

[@bogguslife]

@@okguy7526link ur logs, id bet my house he gaps you

[@fattymatty9319]

Appreciate you checking some of these people and keeping them honest in regards to the point of the tier list.

[@Austin-zg5mo]

This must have been made before the last recent kitty resto druid huge buffs. Going to be a super solid healer with solid DPS with those buffs.

[@LimitMaximum]

correct, video coming soon on me going over the patch the notes

[@wowsew]

@@LimitMaximum the patch the notes the horror

[@godwoken1705]

yeah wish it was feral change tho lmao

[@Armeniozo]

@@godwoken1705 think we might still see some changes

[@toreole5831]

1:36:02 speaking of arms rage: you can currently, theoretically, talent out of warmachine - losing 10% of your autoattack rage generation. and you would not see any decrease in dps.

[@childoffire8068]

less rage in executephase is no dps decrease? :-D

[@ilkerturkmen941]

@@childoffire8068 If they overflow rage too much yeah that'd make sense tbh, didn't see the melee part of the video but on a previous tier list they were saying that arms is overcapping like hell so it would make sense

[@Finn3h]

Arms needs a redesign the dmg numbers are competitive it just doesn't flow like it used to

[@erike9074]

And give up spell reflection? Not worth

[@Finn3h]

Ty for making these after watching the devs say they watch these it makes me really hopeful that the changes are actually coming from our input

[@Neochet]

Good too see you have Jak on, dude is super knowledgeable and really underrated

[@Aggrofool]

Except on druids lmao

[@KC-py5vq]

He doesn't know jack shit about rdruids

[@Neochet]

@@Aggrofool We don't talk about druids

[@themInterwebs]

And rsham, spec is in the dumpster rn

[@august7027]

As a WW monk main, i have to say that i miss Good Karma skill very much and the Old Touch of Death before BFA. Monk skill animations are also very outdated and need some animation changes, specially our fav skills Fist of Fury, Rising sun kick and Blackout kick. Devs have to know that as a monk we almost never do auto-attack during any skill unless we legit braindead afk play the game. Damage of Tiger palm is pathfetic and is only used for combo point generating (deals less dmg then auto attack), and because of that we wast 1 - 2sec global CD to use any skill. Hope to see somone in blizz to so some love to our WOW: Goku spec.

[@Bardock059]

Im surprise WW monk is in bottom list :/ they are insanely good. I hope blizz give you guys zenkai boost

[@zachattack245]

"Somehow, still crying in Windwalker"

[@SB-zg5ch]

literally everyone skipped lol@@testoanabolika7161

[@benz0988]

For those who might want to know more about demo. Demo is DAMAGE WISE on a decent spot, the problem with demo's changes are they reduced your proc generation by like 50%, so you end up casting shadowbolt ALOT more which is really unfun. And also they reduced your imp generation alot, you summon ALOT less imps which means you can implode less which is your main aoe dmg. They "replaced" that with a new buff to the vilefiend a 45sec cd ability that deals now decent aoe dmg. Also your new set bonus deals pretty decent dmg now since it got buffed out of the wasu. The spec basicly consists now 50% of the new set bonus. To keep it short. You do less yourself as a demo for dmg, your dmg comes now passivly from your set bonus and your 1min and 45 sec aoe abilities, your aoe rotation got basicly removed and you are now a spec with aoe cds but no aoe rotation.

[@electricmayhem8147]

that is a nice summary. although all those words in that order is very sad. still maining it though. go team!

[@gandalfdengra5580]

Destruction says Hi.

[@benz0988]

@@gandalfdengra5580 lets be honest both specs got f'd pretty hard in s3 xD

[@benz0988]

@@electricmayhem8147 I will also continue to main demo since I main it since pandaria. But I am honestly not hyped for s3 knowing I am gonna have to play that crap for the whole season most likely.

[@NoLuckJustSkill1337]

That sounds horrible to play :(

[@TroX30540]

Honeslty I can't imagine having to balance all the specs and create raids on 4 different balanced difficulties. This is tremendeous. Of course there are mistakes but averall it is incredible

[@Audio041194]

You will never be able to make a perfectly balanced season, and the balance you see in wow is better than it is in any other game in it's field, I can definitely appreciate this after playing a few of the "free to play" games. Which not only have balancing issues, but also have p2w stuff so the changes never matter to you unless you have the money to buy the best stuff. At least you never have to deal with that in WoW.

[@Patrick-bx8fu]

The way Shroud talked about Max and 2024 being his year. Thats a real friend man :)

[@zebulonbare326]

Very happy to see the DDDD tier make a return.

[@joshbiddinger1744]

Can we all appreciate how thrown off you were by “love you”? I blew my opportunity to say that after my blizzcon pic with you 😂😂😂

[@wankowan1472]

Aug will be nerfed again and Unholy get little buff in next week's patch, will there be any updates to the list?

[@MercerSynthAI]

As a windwalker I am super sad NGL

[@Dankadamas]

Maximum's Gun. It's always there, even when not mentioned, and so is always used in the conversation, even when not mentioned.

[@kye4216]

Idk how he does it, but somehow every time I hear a tattles take it’s even worse than the last one.

[@rhufnagel]

Is aug just for group play? Would you play dev for solo and aug for group or can you run aug on solo stuff also?

[@Cole88_]

was this before or after the new aug nerfs?

[@LimitMaximum]

before

[@themanhands5599]

absolutely rofl at "DDDD stands for Deep Dick Dolly Dumpster. Don't ask about it; it's all good."

[@drumsrule2489]

Is there any confirmation to Ret set still being bugged, even tho ptr notes said it was fixed? Just trying to confirm before I start ret pally on tuesday.

[@AethelTV]

Me the WW main, Surely something has been fixed if i comeback this patch.

[@mitchellloucks3610]

the pain is real. :(

[@Soupstock7]

What happened to the Rogue rework video you were going to do? :(

[@Girney]

2 and a half hours? Damn, I better go get a sandwich...

[@Toshiro4619]

"Oh and I almost forgot..." Blink twice if you're being held at gunpoint by Dorky and forced to read that.

[@ThatTypicalLlama]

unrelated, what headphones are those

[@elodielairea]

If someone is confused about dorkis comment at ~27:54, max forgot to ask him that question on stream and called him again for it later, they just edited it here ^^

[@richpete]

Just moved over to WW Monk in 10.2 from Spriest and honeslty I love it. Maybe at pro or high Mythic raiding it's not as good but I'm doing +16-20's at the moment and it's absolutely fine, out dps'ing people playing meta specs easily.

[@grey154]

The only problem with frost DK is the difference between a good breath pull and an unlucky bad one is giant. You get one mechanic and have to get off the boss and your breath drops, you are now on the bottom of the meters and it feels so bad. 2H oblit needs a little tune up to compete in single target I think, perfectly fine for M+ though.

[@Bardock059]

honestly, i agree. You got people trying to claim BoS is better than 2H oblit when oblit is dominating both m+ and raiding

[@maxcrow9683]

Dorki being such a chad that he would forgo world first over a couple tract he didn't like is such a win for him. Motherucker's got the deepest voice in wow streaming, times the highest keys, and chills with the who's who of the wow community. Who needs a world first raid kill when your hog hamgs so low.

[@maxcrow9683]

When I said "couple tract" I meant to say contract. I'm celebrating my 30th birthday in New Orleans and am highly intoxicated. Hope liquid wins the RWF. Buff MM hunters.

[@maxpower2kill]

​@@maxcrow9683happy birthday man, laughed out loud reading the correction 😂

[@Noster920]

Really wanna go back to unholy but I hate having to manage festermight

[@avogel7937]

Blizzard listens to people that type in your chat. During the shadow portion everyone was going " shadow was op/strong in season 1 and 2, so now it has to be completely useless and absolute fuckign garbage" thats legitimately the mindset of the wow community when a class is strong and why so many people cant be bothered playing the game anymore. When you play a spec or class and it feels really good, blizzard ALWAYS, litteraly ALWAYS completely obliterates the spec in the next tier or the tier after, rather than doing small adjustments. And its clear to see why, just look at your chat. Every 5 seconds someone is going "fuck shadow they where op, now they need to be uselsss" what the fuck even is that mentality.. And theese are the people typing on forums that blizzard listens to. Demo has suffered ALOT of this aswell and many other specs the same, survival hunter another great example. Its so fucking cringe

[@underthebridge2014]

100%! absolute crap they gut classes/specs because others dont perform well and community is toxic to anything close to being considered "meta"

[@sere971]

People who always want their classes to be the strongest and demand nerfs for other classes because of some weird tribalism just turn the entire game's balance to shit-- wish Blizzard would never listen to these people again.

[@TheCoyfish9]

I wish blizzard listened to people in max's chat. The dmg numbers of shadow in s2 were not the issue, yet blizz nerfed it. what the failed to address in a timely fashion is PI being ridiculous, and mass dispel/ soothe literally being mandatory in half of the keys.

[@helzing5114]

facts, legit d0gsh1t mentality

[@lihan_gdj]

Consecration should just follow the caster, I feel like that would fix a lot of issues

[@petermicek5835]

he predicted the warlock secret build thing with the new naked tyrant build lol

[@richard_n]

I personally love Destro Lock. It's a lot of fun but it definitely could use some quality of life improvements. The talents need to lower the cast time more or make them instant cast for Chaos Bolt and Incinerate. If they don't do this, then they need to honestly improve the damage across the board 25-50% to make up with the huge losses the spec gets in movement fights. Destro should easily be the top dps in any fight with minimal movement.

[@Impossibly-Possible]

Balance druid i have beem one shot on keys above 20 a few times, 23+ have lots of mechanics that can just kill you, depending what week it is adds can kill me before a heal goes out.

[@murrloc1859]

Consecration is just really annoying on Prot idk if I can put up with it

[@casthor64]

I have a question, I like the physical enhancement build, is it going to be playable or with the tier set we are playing elementalist build all the time?😢

[@business_man_alex]

Physical is bis in pure st until new 4 pc where they will be similar. Ele is bis in m+ and 2+ targets forever and the same as phys after. So basically yes ele is bis

[@Emanx2318]

Assa will be S+ deluxe this season both raid/m+, will be lit to see

[@MrJeremydb91]

Is aug at least knocked down to s tier after the nerfs? Or was this taking this into account? Asking as a player who wants to play dev lol

[@Preheat]

Nerfs happened the day after this talk, blizzard listening 🙉

[@MrJeremydb91]

@@Preheat where can I get the disintegrate bar you show with the tick cutoffs highlighted? Thanks!

[@reecebutler7707]

That moment when none of the healers or tanks are playing monk and you are their go to monk dps player

[@ralphsescon2142]

DK went down so fast

[@nickolasroper3237]

I would be happy if WW was at least in the swamp or C category.

[@ethanhunsaker9363]

yeah feels like WW is forever cursed to be an AOE focused spec

[@Gentche]

Problem with nightfae shadow was that i hated the shadow ability and loved the soulshape and conduits

[@thomaskruger547]

For me always an interessting question is would rwf bring the 2nd havoc. And if they bring 2nd rogue but not 2nd Havoc rogue must placed higher in tier list right? Btw my guess is: 1 havoc in raid! Feels like forever i saw 2.

[@nickh4354]

havoc is 1 spec though, rogue is 3 different specs, so you cant just say rogue is better than havoc if they have 2 in. oh and now im realizing how wrong you are because this is a m+ and raid tier list, and on top of that we all know arcane isn't as good as fire and frost mage, but due to the nature of RWF play you'll prob see 2 arcane mages and 0 of the others... so yeah, no thats not how this works.

[@sean6793]

Havoc was decent in Vault. There were 2 played on Rasz. We were just absolute dogshit last patch cause the tier set was giga trash and our ST was dogshit in a ST raid.

[@thomaskruger547]

@@sean6793 You are right i totally forgot.

[@molecar3676]

RDruid damage problems would be solved with two talents, one giving them a Starfall that harms enemies & heals allies ramping over 10 secs & a thorns based build for single target that maybe gives them a button to press whenever their thorns target parries an attack that lets them deal extra thorns damage to the attacker.

[@MindOfTim]

Well after this was escorted, resto got some giga buffs to all cat abilities and energy regeneration, so I think they aren't too bad now

[@LukasLLM]

58:40 Fuck me, I thought my headphones were dying after not being that old, and I really don't have the money to replace them. Scared me bad

[@James-kv3ll]

If the Rage based specs don’t feel good unless they’re overflowing with their primary resource then that means the resource design itself is fundamentally flawed.

[@richardjones8846]

azortharian is such a gem it's just depressing that blizzard has done nothing but mistreat hunters for basically 9 years straight and then made an oopsie in 8.3 that made BM both fun and strong... which is just not something hunter can have.... being strong or have fun.

[@TheMCmace]

BM should never be busted strong because you can cast everything on the move What‘s the point of playing any other rdps if BM does more dmg and you can freely move

[@BlueTTVx]

holy shit 10 years since feral could legitimately raid??? BLIZZARD seriously??

[@Alice_Typhon]

Feral was broken af in SoFo, that was 2 tiers ago.

[@jayi100]

Does this take into account the most recent class tuning?

[@popojaga7312]

No

[@BPBreezy11]

Love to see Automatic Jak, get him on the PoddyC

[@adamadamski1040]

Max and Asmon are polar opposites. Max is super nice and positive ('love you' killed me) and Asmon is ... Asmon. He made shi tt ing on WoW his proffesion.

[@painfullyavarage4316]

IMO Guardian doomers didnt play the spec before 10.1.5, it is really not all that much worse than last patch. The rage generation you were getting was a bit fake since so much of it was overcapped and you can still pretty easily survive some of the bigger pulls like the hall before the 2nd neltharus boss on a 20-25 key level. People also refuse to use bristling fur for some reason, the choice node it is on pairs it with brambles which is essentially useless, and it massively helps out your single target rage generation. The tier is a bit odd and some annoying bugs exist but ultimately bear is entirely viable for everything except like pushing 28+ keys

[@Mikkfurr]

always proud of all the specs in my class(Evoker)

[@Lordlt82]

Pre patch dragonflight with talent points and legos as well chain harvest was our strongest point as shaman.

[@Vucial]

loved dev evoker in s1 felt so refreshing. skipped s2 and aug coming in. now coming back s3 I have no idea what aug is or how to play it lol. I know I could learn but I wanted to stay dev, but every group was asking if I could be aug.

[@harvington2139]

what about the new changes that just dropped yesterday?

[@therev6331]

I have mained a guardian druid for over 10 years now, there is no way its swamp ass. Raids are a piece of cake, high keys are done with my eyes closed and I never have to worry about my health.

[@jwill2489]

Ret set is still bugged? Thought it was fixed.

[@Vikingeek]

I'd love it if Max just used his end of interview questions to decide what to take to the race... "screw doing maths and science to work out the best comps, this is what the people on the interwebz said" xD

[@Chris-dt8ru]

can we get a tier list of excuses why people couldnt make it to blizzcon?

[@bruniik_]

im so sad Whispyr didnt say "Hiya" ;(

[@syzuna_]

So who pays Dorki, Jedith and Psybear the 1 million for the right predictions? :D

[@The-Lost-Librarian]

I main a Shadow Priest, I do decent in Raid, but M+ is a mess. Even some fights in Raid that are AOE fights can be a problem. I try to explain issues to my guildies that so much is tied to Shadow Crash in M+, especially with capping it to 5 targets. They could use some love.

[@ivane12]

The awkward moment you realize Maximum has not watched LOTR lol

[@ethanmcclelland8672]

"Damn I'm a bad influence so lets do that again"

[@Kotonement]

I think shadow is the only reworked class in dragonflight who has now just been gutted and tossed aside

[@DatFelryn]

guardian down bad too

[@havtor007]

Ret was first there it never became meta after getting a rework at all. Unlike Shadow.

[@raweon_path_of_exile1263]

demo got absolutely dumpstered this patch gameplay wise. but atleast it does dmg

[@Kotonement]

@@havtor007 Shadow became meta literally as they could give PI and had mass dispel, both have been massively nerfed and shadow wasnt even meta before aug came in halfway, they only became meta to buff someone else like aug does

[@havtor007]

@@Kotonement Ret was reworked before shadow and never at all became meta that is my point at least Shadow did become meta after a rework.

[@TroX30540]

Anxidean from the chat at 7:59 : "Why did they nerf Druids for the patch all about the emerald dream" lmao

[@joshcooke336]

Blizz is looking at Ascension wow for Season of Discovery why not take placeable or followable conc? 😂😂

[@carloswellster8018]

Aug won't fall off the list with the recent nerfs?

[@sebsstianmaag7718]

Ofc he will be on A now

[@jenat82]

Typical bear is a turd now when we get new bear forms lol

[@wtff]

Hunters are lucky to have Azor. That dude said so much in only 10 minutes.

[@nonye0]

aug still has its own tier even after those huge nerfs?

[@MindOfTim]

This was recorded before them changes, I "think" for m+ it definitely dropped a tier but raid its likely still at least 2 of them

[@calamity0.o]

I love when my class is bad because it makes me look better at my class when all the good players are elsewhere. Go monk go! Yea, faeline stomp was a cute ability for shadowlands. It doesn't feel like a monk ability to me. It shouldn't have been kept. I'm tired of so many spells, while none of them have that umph feel to me.

[@deefour28]

I only play mistweaver on my monk so I absolutely love stomp. But good lord it looks so out of place on WW

[@Lauscus]

@@deefour28 They are updating the visual effect to look like a coiling serpent. You'd like it I think.

[@assiassi9877]

wheres hunter??

[@MrTimbo318]

Assa has been top DPS in nearly every stream I've watched in the new raid.

[@trashtef]

How and why does max know what happens in Fyrak Mythic without it ever being tested?

[@deefour28]

The boss journal thing has info on fyrak I believe that’s all the insight they know

[@maximilianlinck7225]

I wont leave the sinking spriest ship

[@roboMike33]

i dont want to either

[@RatelRegalement]

I think with the sanguine changes, and the overall damage, frost might nudge it's way out of Sanguine Week aintnoway a little. It's still not ideal, but probably not as bad as it might have been.

[@NerfHerder69]

Bro change your batteries in your fire alarm 😂

[@Defenestrationed]

You can tell Max straight up doesn't believe this guys take on DKs lol.

[@ben-64]

Max going 5head right out the gate explaining why tier lists aren't trash content gigachad

[@eonarose]

Shroud is right. Watching Max talk about wow is more fun than actually playing the game for me.

[@krikukiks]

Should have built a raid based on the guesses and see how many spots were left over / missing. But let me try: Tanks(2): paladin, DK Healers(4): 2x priest, 1x paladin, 1x monk Ranged(8): 4x aug, 2x mage, 1x moonkin, 1x demo Melee(9): 2x assa/outlaw, 2x havoc, 2x arms, ?x Ench, 1x survival, 1x feral, 1x ret Total players in WF kill: 23 + ench which is in DDDD tier Looks like quite good collective prediction as they had no context on how others guessed. Edit, Limit and Echo first kill lineups: Tanks(+): paladin and dk Healers(+): monk, pala, holy and disc priest Ranged(-2): 2x aug (-2), 2x beastmaster (+2), arcane mage (-1), demo (+) Melee(-1): 2x havoc (+), feral (+), 2x assa (+), 2x ench (~+), arms (~-1)

[@HurricaneSparky]

Fury got good Execute this patch with the changes/new build. I feel like a lot of people overlook that. Arms will still be stronger, but Fury is a lot more durable on average.

[@Clarketh]

What you talking about, arms was worse then Fury last patch we had 😂😂

[@fullertakos]

And also die by the sword > enraged regeneration

[@alexandrustoica5423]

Arms was better on Pure ST fights and the raid was quite full of single target fights. Fury was good in M+ and 1 fight in the raid, maybe 3 if your group needed more aoe dmg or more execute damage.@@Clarketh

[@plasmahvh]

@@fullertakos in raid that's very false. fury is much tankier than arms in raid. ER with BT on low cd makes u full heal every 2 seconds for 10 seconds which is huge. then u also have the fact that fury is dual wielding 2h which means more stamina. and then also warpaint, a permanent 10% dr. die by the sword can be situationally useful because of parrying but other than that arms is much squishier. there is nothing with defensive value that arms has and fury doesnt. you could argue that fury doesn't have ignore pain but if you look at logs, a very small % of arms warriors go ignore pain nowadays due to the nerfs.

[@CJ-ec7qo]

Why not make concencrate like righteous fire from poe

[@Djiini07]

Hey if you listen to this video on .75x speed, Maximum sounds HELLA drunk. Kinda fun, check it out.

[@armagedoc66]

Augmentation min-maxing in hell of a hard. Thus I have NEVER seen any (maybe 1-2) topping dps charts not even crazy damages... However I trust Preheat.

[@Pryzice]

WW needs jesus

[@gandalfdengra5580]

RIP Destruction.

[@Toucansam46]

It feels like it’s always the same 3-4 dps that are meta in keys and get no nerfs meanwhile purely raid specs like Fury or Arms just get gutted time and time again. Can’t remember the last time Warrior was anything better than mid

[@josephpavelich2781]

Windwalker and Brewmaster rotation ia honestly great. The "reworks" is really just giving more mean to certain things. Windwalker just needs a boost to combostrikes damage increase and Brew needs blackout kick to help more with stagger than just lower cooldowns that help stagger. 10.2 tier kind of addresses Brewmasters weakness, but Wind Walkers is still just sad, lol.

[@sllll7457]

was that actually shroud commenting on Wow?

[@LimitMaximum]

yes

[@jwill2489]

Can shroud pay for wow balance team to be better like he pays for his gear? Pls

[@gregorh.3919]

I find it funny that there're so many people here acting like "Oh the class is really bad in the Tier list? Okay I won't play it." Like you can play literally any class and still get up to 3k

[@LilOreos]

Either Max or Automaticjak need to replace the battery in their fire alarm 53:55