10 Conductors Whose Remakes Sucked

10 Conductors Whose Remakes Sucked
Ormandy’s Pictures at an Exhibition (Sony vs. RCA)
Stokowski’s Scheherazade (Decca vs. RCA)
Solti’s Mahler First Symphony (Decca Analogue vs. Digital)
Karajan’s Holst Planets (Decca vs. DG)
Previn’s Walton First Symphony (RCA vs. Telarc)
Giulinii’s Franck Symphony in D minor (EMI [Warner] vs. DG]
Haitink’s Mahler Seventh Symphony (Philips [Decca] Analogue vs. Digital)
Ozawa’s Carmina Burana (RCA vs. Philips [Decca]
Colin Davis’ Sibelius Symphony Cycle (Philips [Decca] vs. RCA)
Bernstein’s “New World” Symphony (Sony vs. DG)

[@theoryjoe1451]

It's interesting that many of your criticisms of later recordings can be summed up in two words: "early digital"

[@Warp75]

Doesn’t dig it at all digital

[@MDK2_Radio]

“Digibitches” made me lol for real.

[@petterw5318]

True, but Jochum remade his Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner cycles at the end of the 1970s, and they're all excellent.

[@chadweirick67]

I agree with another comment would be equally interesting on 10 conductors whose remakes were way better than their first one

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Coming soon, obviously.

[@bbailey7818]

Beecham recorded a thrilling SymphonieFantastique for EMI in the 50s. But stereo was around the corner and there was a later session to re-record it. That performance is tepid and lacks excitement and unfortunately became the one that was issued and reissued because stereo. When EMI finally issued the mono version on CD it was a revelation. Fire vs. smoldering embers.

[@BeeMichael]

How much of a recording is the Conductor and how much is the producer ( that voice from the booth ) mic placement and choice, the hall acoustic, and the biggie, the final mix?

[@tuomaspalojarvi3300]

Hi Dave, would it be possible to make a dedicated video clarifying your use of the term "reference recording"? I've heard the term used when comparing purely the aural qualities of different recordings, but in your talks you appear to place some emphasis on the interpretative qualities of the performance as well. Are there some other things to be considered before something is declared a reference recording? etc. Thank you!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I will do that. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@theforceiswithme8804]

I have always wondered why almost all conductors take things slower the older they get. Is it that their perception of time has changed? When you are a kid, for example, summers seemed to last forever, now in our "golden years'" those years just fly by! Do old conductors actually realize that they have slowed their tempi down or does it seem to them that things are zipping along as fast as they ever did?

[@mgconlan]

I think conductors often slow down as they age because PEOPLE slow down as they age. Two long-lived conductors who actually got FASTER in their old age were Mengelberg and Toscanini.

[@adrianleverkuehn9832]

Hi Dave - I agree 100% about each item. It's pure coincidence that I had already heard all of these recordings (unusual for me, as I am NOT an encyclopedic record maven). So this was a great opportunity to understand exactly what you meant about each recording. Re "early digital": DDD (Don't Doubt Dave).

[@iankemp1131]

Didn't Colin David do 2 versions with the LSO, one on RCA and one on LSO Live, as well as the first Boston one? How does that third cycle compare overall? You've mentioned in your companion article his much improved remake of the Kullervo symphony; does that also apply to the others?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

See reviews on ClassicsToday.com.

[@marks1417]

Dave always comes up with such interesting subjects.

[@neilford99]

ha! Immediately thought of Previn's Walton 1 and Rachmaninov 2nd remakes. Klemperer's 3d Beethoven 7th ?

[@AlexMadorsky]

The posthumously released Haitink Mahler 7th (with Berlin maybe?) also pales in comparison to Haitink’s first M7 with the Concertgebouw.

[@tatoarg9508]

Myung Whun-Chung's Dvořak 7 with Gothenburg was fantastic. Later Vienna one is underwhelming, to say the least.

[@TallPaulInKy]

The problem is when Ormandy and the Philadelphia moved from Columbia to RCA they changed the recording venue. Some concert halls sound great in concert but not in recordings. I suspect it was a cost cutting issue with RCA.

[@sergeabud7046]

I think it was in his book of talks with Joseph Horowitz that Claudio Arrau mentioned that his agent was pushing him to re-record the Beethoven concertos digitally so he could remain competitive. Maybe some conductors had similar outside pressure to remain “relevant” during the CD revolution or they were just too happy to oblige like Karajan. I can still remember hifi salesmen saying to customers that they absolutely had to look for the almighty “DDD” symbol on the CD cover if they wanted optimal sound quality… It sure was musically ignorant and stupid but it did make waves in a record industry that wanted to capitalize on the new technology.

[@brianwilliams9408]

Well, often the record label pressures the conductor to make a new one, simply to compete with the old one. Or, especially when digital came out, all the record companies rushed to take advantage of the new medium. Often the results were subpar.

[@jeffheller642]

I think its fair to say that given the choice between interpretations that err on the side of too slow vs. those that are too quick you would opt for the latter nearly everytime. I would too probably. However, can you think of 10 or so recordings where you favor the slower tempo?

[@jeffheller642]

yes? @@ecriturecinematographique2987

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure.

[@neilcameronable]

Thank you for blowing Karajan out.For years i always thought the same and so disappointed by the DG recording i threw it out!.I have to say you are the first reviewer i have come across who thinks the Karajan DG sucks.I am sticking to the other Karajan recording.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I'm frankly amazed. I never thought this was in any way a controversial call.

[@4pedos]

Dear Dave, I absolutely LOVE your style, but sometimes I wish you could provide some actual sound samples of the stuff you are talking about. Of course, that would be much harder to produce and edit, as I believe... but would you consider doing it? That´d be great!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've been doing it since the beginning. You just haven't seen those videos. It depends on getting permission to use the clips, and I've discussed the issue at length. Try today's Haydn Symphony Crusade, for example.

[@petroslinardos]

David, when it comes to Karajan's recordings, I generally prefer the Vienna over the Berlin Philharmonic. Karajan seemed to add some lushness to their sheen, without homogenizing (Karajanizing) their sound to the extent he did to the Berliners. What is your take, judging by the recordings?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've discussed it many times. Check out any Karajan/Vienna video--the Decca Karajan/Vienna box, for example.

[@djquinn4212]

Giulini’s other disastrous remake is the DG Verdi Requiem. And another bad Karajan remake has to be Haydn Creation. The first one was perfect. Second one is just blech. Here’s a question for everyone: Monteux did a perfect Rite of Spring with Boston and remade it with the Paris Conservatory orchestra that sucks. Is that one forgiven because of the opportunity to capture the original conductor and orchestra from the premiere? Curious what people think on that one.

[@robhaynes4410]

For the next video, you could do Previn/Walton as a corollary. His RPO remake of Belshazzar is better than the EMI original.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Stay tuned...that's in the next list.

[@robhaynes4410]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I don't want to anticipate too much, but are there enough reference recordings that are remakes (e.g., Karajan's Shostakovich 10) to populate a list? Rather than the remake merely being an improvement?

[@richfarmer3478]

I have always liked my Walton 1 by Previn on Telarc, but I have never heard the EMI version to make the comparison. I guess I'll have to.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

RCA, not EMI.

[@richfarmer3478]

@@DavesClassicalGuide thanks, got it mixed up with his EMI Belshazzar's Feast.

[@bendingcaesar65]

Everything you said about Solti's Maher's 1st, I would also apply to his Bartok. His London Bartok was brilliant. His Chicago Bartok just sucked. Again, a very similar performance, but it sounds like a run-through. As an example, the Shostakovich reference is quite funny in London, but sounds bland in Chicago. Plus the sound sucks too.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I mentioned the Bartok.

[@stevenmsinger]

That Colin Davis RCA Sibelius cycle is what I think of when I think of bad remakes. His Boston Symphony cycle is one of my all-time favorites, and when this newer RCA cycle came out the reviews were stellar. Then I heard it and thought there was something wrong with me. Why didn't I like this? Why did this sound so much worse to me? Even today you'll find reviewers who gush about the RCA cycle. The LSO live remakes that came after this one were better but no where near as good as the first Boston cycle.

[@gartenkauz2152]

As you mentioned the planets: Which recording has the most brutal, bloodiest, grimmest MARS?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Have a look at the Planets repertoire video.

[@gartenkauz2152]

I watched the repertoire video long time ago, watched again, but didn't find an answer to the question. And: The most brutal Mars is not necessarily from an overall good recording.

[@poturbg8698]

With the magic of computers, you can replace the inadequate tenor on the RCA Carmina with John Aler from Ozawa's remake.

[@doctormock1]

Surprised you didn't mention the Vanska Sibelius symphony cycles.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I limited myself to 10.

[@iankemp1131]

Yes, I wondered that too.

[@henrygingercat]

I suspect they did it principally for money and the flattery they received from the recording industry. Like the rest of us crumblies: increasing arthritis and generalised rigidity, the reassurance of routine, inability to concentrate, tendency to hark back to the golden years and a dramatic drop in testosterone levels probably account for most of it.

[@beigelbdriver]

Barbirollis first mono recording of Vaughan-Williams "London Symphony" is great, but his later stereo recording is only mediocre.

[@MarauderOSU]

Speaking of the Mahler 5th, Leonard Bernstein could also be on a list of conductors whose remakes were better!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

He is. Tune in tomorrow.

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

The Karajan remake of the planets has the most out of tune chord you could imagine… mm. 5, trombones… wow, does it stink! 😂

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

Horns actually, my bad…

[@bruckner1]

So Ormandy's RCA "Pictures" isn't as good as the Columbia, but we don't really hear why. Which makes me wonder that if someone heard the RCA version not knowing the Columbia, would they find anything wrong with it? I can speak to that, because I heard the RCA first and thought it was fine. Make of that what you will.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Just because it's not as good doesn't make it bad. It's just not as good.

[@robertbubeck9194]

Saying the RCA is not as good as the Columbia is one thing and true. Saying it "sucked" is going overboard in the case of Ormandy's "Pictures".

[@davidmayhew8083]

I know you're evaluating the performance but what about the sound engineering? That counts too and, as you know, can make or break a recording and a performance. Also, in the day, I was intrigued by the difference between the sound on one label compared to another. For a while I didn't care for Angel records. columbia was just great and ultimayely, not great. London and DG were miles apart! Just saying.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I discuss it where I think it's relevant, as in this very video, multiple times, so I wonder if you actually watched.

[@GuyDerKoenig]

Barenboim’s Schumann’s cycle!

[@hyperaticism]

I‘m so used to the Karajan Berlin versions of the Planet and Pine and Fountain. I streamed Vienna's Planet, and found their acceleration 1 min in Mars really uncomfortable and unsteady, as if some sort of complex rythmic modulation is employed😵‍💫

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I'd get over it if I were you, or listen for other things!