#10MinuteTalk

A big pill, a badass name, and…maybe that’s it? Why do we have this cartridge? What was/is it used for? Should it receive the dreaded “lead balloon” status? Decide for yourself as we chat about this curious cartridge born from serious talk yet saw little action.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@HighSpeedFudd762]

Hey so you guys missed a few key points, highlighted by Ryan saying he’d pick the .450 Bushmaster for gas gun. The .458 SOCOM was designed from the ground up, at the behest of those who requested it, to run reliably out of standard USGI magazines. Being a bottle neck cartridge, it fits into and runs out of 30 round USGI magazines, as a ten round single stack mag, very well. The 450 bushmaster, being straight walled, and overall skinnier, will not fit into curved 30 round mags, nor is it large enough to actually work with the feed lips in a typical AR mag. Ask anyone you know with a .450 Bushmaster AR, they’ll tell you how much of a pain it is to find magazines for that gun. The resurgence in popularity of the .450 Bushmaster is solely due to it being a straight wall cartridge, in states that require that for deer hunting, and it’s being chambered almost exclusively in bolt guns.

[@blackwind743]

Someone needs to see if they can get them to work with a Qmag in a Desert Tech Quattro 15. 🤔 You'd probably have to cut something but maybe not.

[@chrisbrewer4285]

as well it was designed for close quarters infiltration

[@HighSpeedFudd762]

@@blackwind743 So from everything I’ve read (I only have personal experience with the .458 Socom) many manufacturers have tried to make 10rd mags that work with the .450 bushmaster, to no avail. I do think someone made a modified Tapco Intrafuse mag with so so success, but they’re no longer in production and I think they go for $50+ or something ridiculous. So with the .450 bushmaster you’re essentially limited to straight mags that max out at 7rds capacity and have proprietary followers and feed lips. To contrast, the .458 Socom loads right into a 30rds USGI mag and works great. Truly the .450 Bushmaster is a pretty decent round, but it’s at home in a bolt gun, the .458 Socom is really just the best choice for a gas gun. In my opinion that is.

[@DocOmaley98]

The AR Catridge Graveyard full podcast for Halloween!!!!!

[@willrowell3218]

I second this!

[@compted10]

Actually in 2024 I have been consider the 458 SOCOM for suppressed hunting.

[@mostpopularpresidentever]

its devastating with 500g makers

[@albertlemont5471]

Do it!

[@wesleyhargis5115]

I have 325s in mine and it's pretty sweet. The recoil isn't bad at all. The only way I can see someone saying it's got a lot of recoil is if they are used to 5.56 as their standard for a rifle when it's a lot closer to .30 carbine

[@blakebell6720]

I’m really not that interested in this cartridge but I’m going to watch the whole video in support of cartridge talks

[@RumblestripDotNet]

Where has Jim been? Replacing head gaskets in his Subaru likely. :D 30AR should be on the short list for Lead Balloons.

[@rclem87]

I’d love to see a cartridge talk on 9.3x62!

[@6point5x55]

Yes please!

[@eerohongisto821]

My beloved moose hammer, yes please!

[@nielskrejcir5025]

Agreed, great suggestion.

[@hoponpop7097]

Agreed

[@willrowell3218]

Absolutely!

[@WayStedYou]

cartridge talks are baaaaaack

[@reedpitts9061]

458 SOCOM was made to use the .458 cal rifle bullets (45-70, 458 win mag, ect.) and can fire heavy bullets up to 600gr subsonic and deliver 1300+ ft/lbs muzzle energy with subsonic rounds. It was designed to deliver rifle energy in suppressed CQB applications and was supposedly utilized in limited capacity among some special forces/contractors. It came out after 450 bushmaster and was more popular than 450 BM originally. 450 BM uses .452 cal pistol bullets and cannot deliver the same kind of energy with subsonic ammo. 450 BM became more popular because of straight wall hunting and eventually had more support making it a better option for supersonic and hunting applications and will fire lighter 250gr bullets at a slightly higher velocity than 458 SOCOM. The 458 SOCOM is arguably still a better option for an AR platform due to more reliable feeding from the bottleneck design and more powerful subsonic performance when fired suppressed, but does not have anywhere near the support of 450 BM.

[@portersorensen8814]

It we’re doing cartridge talks let’s hit 357 sig

[@That_Guy5575]

A round I recently converted to for edc😅

[@EthanBedgood]

Totally off topic, but Ryan reminds me of a gun guy version of Jordan Peterson lol. I really enjoy listening to yall, keep up the good work guys!

[@williamgoldston5803]

I have used it for hogs. It works. If it has become a lead balloon, it is not the only one I own.

[@mfallen2023]

Definitely works. Definitely a lead balloon... Got a few myself, .338fed and .480 Ruger being the ones I refuse to let go of. That's why we handload, I guess... Though it is nice to be able to pop into a store and buy a few boxes of ammo.

[@mkstevens99]

I'm pretty sure 458socom uses rifle projectiles where the other competitors use pistol projectiles....

[@00blacksvtl]

When I built my 458 that's why I went with it as opposed to the 450.

[@BryanShull-lt8gz]

​@@00blacksvtlme to

[@albertlemont5471]

Me too ​@@00blacksvtl

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

It uses .458 dia bullets so anything for a 45-70 works. Normal loadings are 250 to 600 grains.

[@knifelover73]

Yep. 458 Socom uses .458 meaning you can load all the way up to like 700 grains. Vs 450 bushmasters .452 maxing you out at like 350 grains.

[@sergeantdwz5783]

Omg. The talks are back. I re watch all of these. Probably watched a couple of them 10-15 times while im at work. Can't get enough of Ryan's wisdom, Jim's humor, and mark's printouts

[@petersquatch]

They ain't gonna let you hit bro

[@sergeantdwz5783]

@@petersquatch lol 🤣

[@toddboyer9691]

2 podcasts, 2 Waterboy references! Part of what I love about Vortex and these talks! Bring on the .35Rem!

[@BryanShull-lt8gz]

I have 2, 458 SOCOM uppers and they shoot great. I don't use the 30 round magazines, I use 10 and 20s. The 450 bushmaster uses pistol bullets, the SOCOM uses rifle bullets. The factory 458 SOCOM is anemic, I can handload much more powerful than Bushmaster. In a stronger action like a Ruger Ranch you could easily reach 45-70 ballistics.

[@coloradosupercars]

One of the biggest things to mention witb the 458 Socom is barrel/bolt selection. Since the SOCOM isn't a Saami spec round, 95% of makers don't use the correct chamber specs and/or bolts. Get a Tromix and it'll run like a top! Them there soda cans wont know what hit em!

[@Perry2186]

Several years ago, it was popular here in Indiana. Because we are not a straight wall state and it fits our set parameters for deer

[@ajbranson2]

To be fair I dont think it was really ever intended for commercial use... from what I've heard, .458 was specifically designed to put holes in engine blocks. People guarding check points needed a way to shut down a vehicle quickly when they decided it was a threat. Haven't tested it but I bet it works lol

[@ajbranson2]

Also I have no idea to what level this was ever implemented, if at all.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

It was probably thought of by people who could legitimately use it, but to stop a vehicle the fastest the guy behind the wheel is the best aiming point and those guys figured that out.

[@rogersreview]

I think the current beauty of the 458 socom is to push heavier subsonic pills out of an AR-15 or micro-action bolty. When shooting subsonic, bullet design and grain weights are the main factors in penetration. A from my experience: when shooting broadside at a hog the 188gr 300blk projectile will typically get stuck in the hide of the opposite shoulder whereas the 458 with 400+ grain projos will have full penetration 100% of the time.

[@zacharyhouser5017]

You missed one of the key points of the socom… it was designed from the beginning to also shoot subs. 5-600 grains! and it functions in an AR! Kind of the best part of the socom in my opinion, it’s like the big bore brother of 300 blackout. And as far as ammunition goes.. Black butterfly makes all kinds of top tier socom loadings. I just built a bolt action 458 socom with a 1:8 twist barrel to shoot subs exclusively. An d if anyone is interested in this cartridge and hand loads. maker bullets just came out with a 650 grain .458 cal expanding sub bullet, which is awesome cause they didn’t offer that bullet when I ordered my barrel. so that was a nice surprise when I was on their website a few weeks ago. I’m hoping to get some of them loaded up for deer season this year.

[@alanhopper6653]

First ar I ever built

[@iflycentral]

Franklin Armory Reformation is the one with the funny little bullets that look like footballs with fins.

[@Sidekick_Snowman]

Yep. It was like a nerf football.

[@michaelcalabro2376]

With straight rifling

[@stevenhixon5108]

Faxon still makes barrels for the 458 SOCOM.

[@JonnyTheViking]

I just finished a .458 SOCOM build in early September. 12" Tromix upper. Shooting a 300gr Barnes TTSX at 1700FPS. Flawless performance. Total build weight with optic and magazine is 6lbs. Could not be happier.

[@gigabytes5955]

What's covert about rounds that break the sound barrier? It might as well be 45 at that point. If you want a 300 grain bullet going 1700 fps that's cool but you would get better performance from a longer rifle shaped boat tailed bullet.

[@JonnyTheViking]

@@gigabytes5955 you are not wrong, but the FPS loss from 16”to 12” is extremely marginal to me for my application. This build is purpose-designed for where I hunt hogs and deer: the dense marsh woods of Savannah, GA. My build is ideal for me and my application when you look at my optic set up and desired use distance of under 150yds. With a 100yd zero of a 2moa red dot, I get -2.50in at the muzzle, -0.56in at 25, +0.55 at 50, +0.77 at 75, 0 at 100, -1.81 at 125, and -4.79 at 150. 458 “velocity per inch” is nothing like what the 556 loses per inch when chopping barrel length. 556 averages about 50fps per inch, 458 averages 25-30 fps per inch. Full powder burn for my load is achieved at 10”, but I like the extra FPS and added insurance of complete burn with a 12”. I do intend to work up a load for a 250gr Barnes, which will increase my range tolerances a decent bit. Something else I considered is being “close enough” to the sound barrier for suppressing while using bullet weights more optimal for my given twist rate. I haven’t tested it myself, but I’ve seen many a forum post of “my barrel just doesn’t like the 5XX or 6XXgr projectiles”. I’ve also found much better bullet options (mostly from Barnes and Hornady) for the 250-400gr weight ranges.

[@mfallen2023]

@@gigabytes5955 Some people don't need to/terrain doesn't allow for shots past 100yd or so. 300gr .45 pill @ 1700fps will stop pretty much anything on the planet within a 150yd. That's just a hair slower than what I load .460 Smith out of an 18.5" to, but with a much better bullet. And I have 100% confidence in my hardcasts against any moose/bear that may want to run me down. Add a Barnes into the mix? Yeah, you're not undergunned against anything outside of possibly elephant and hippo.

[@JonnyTheViking]

@@mfallen2023 ftlbs of energy starts at 1924 at the muzzle and dips to about 1750 at 200yds (beyond my desired application distance).. then factor in the projectile being a Barnes ttsx.. recipe for success, if you ask me!

[@mr.mr.3301]

Have you done the 30 Remington AR yet? I would love to see a cartridge talk on that. I actually got to see one the other day from some ammo that was in an estate sale and all I could think of man would be awesome with the 7 mm bullet

[@chrisweber4450]

+1 on the 30rem

[@andrewf1826]

Don't know about the .458, but I've got a .375 SOCOM and she's a beaut. At $3+ per round, factory loadings are not really justifiable, but who cares about that, right? All this to say....come on, Ryan, where the heck is your video(s) on the 300 SAUM?! At least one person is waiting for that one.

[@benneuls4142]

I started my reloading journey with the cartridge!

[@adampistorius4549]

300g TTSX is a medicine for hogs. Never had one run off. Reloading is pretty much the only way to go unless you are a millionaire! After about 12 rounds you are toast.

[@andrewfrederick6947]

I love mine, 10.5 piston upper. Shooting a 400 grain maker subsonic supressed just puts a smile on your face

[@DocOmaley98]

The AR Catridge Graveyard full podcast for Halloween!!!!!

[@codybunch]

I’ve been hoping y’all would do a talk on this my first AR was a 458 socom I built it for black bear and hog

[@longranger308]

Can you guys please do a review on the 6.8SPC?!?!?!!

[@brycemartens2497]

I still think dangerous game cartridge talk would be cool. It would give you an excuse to get out that 458 Lott

[@lewallen501]

That was the straight rifling Franklin armory reformation

[@Brokeasajoke2]

Please, let's take a walk through the AR cartridge graveyard!

[@mostpopularpresidentever]

I've had my socom for a few years and X-Caliber barrels and love both

[@mr.mr.3301]

How about a cartridges that failed but shouldn’t have.

[@BryanShull-lt8gz]

People who compare the 458 SOCOM to the 450 Bushmaster usually compare a 200 or 250 grain loading in the Bushmaster to a 300 grain in the SOCOM. I've seen this time and time again. With equal bullet weight they are to close to matter. The only difference is in straight wall only states the Bushmaster gets the nod and in AR 15s the SOCOM is king. As for versatility the SOCOM can shoot from 150 grain polymer bullets to 600 or 700 grain suppressed bullets. That is a huge range!

[@richardcontinijr9661]

Never once have I ever had to modify a USGI 30rd aluminum mag to work with .458 Socom. Idk why he thinks you have to modify the feed lips and followers. Is it required to do so with PMags? I've been running a Tromix upper since 04 and it's been reliable.

[@wallyzworld7108]

The 458 Socom came about during the search for a big bore M16 upper conversion for USCG. The 499 Leitner Wise, 50 Beowulf and 458 Socom were all tested for boat interdiction. Tromix built my bolt action in 458 Socom some 25 years ago. 20inch fluted barrel on a Sako action in an old Grendel SRT folding stock. Shoots extremely well with early Lehigh lathe turned bullets and surpasses 45-70 ballistics. Problem with 450 Bushmaster is the .452 bullets.

[@ryanrichardson9915]

I have noticed, never a mention of Black Hills ammo. I run nothing but the 77 grain HPBT in my do everything 16” BCM with a Razor 1-10, (and CCW Defender.) Just wondering. I was just thinking about the .458 the other day. I think I see and 8.6 in my future.

[@40calnut]

Not bad recoil with 500 grain evergreen ballistics bullets loaded at subsonic velocities suppressed! Actually tons of fun to shoot with the ole strike eagle on top!

[@MrTacklebury]

I really like the .450 Bushmaster. I was going to go with the Socom, but ended up doing a lot of research and the .450 bushmaster outperforms the other significantly. I also load for both .45-70 and .45 Colt and the .45 Colt bullets work in it also. The .458 Lott is too long for the requirements in some of the states.

[@michaeldancurtis]

the 450SOCOM has a great place in a collection: AR15: 5.56 - easy but effectively unsuppressible - mid range / small target 300 BLK - low recoil - short range / small target 458socom - short range, perfect short range with subsonic power - short range / big targets compare to the 450 bushmaster is loud to be effective, 300blk grain levels in subsonic - shortrange/small targets AR10 6.5 credmore - doesn't subsonic ... just at all - long range / smallish targets 308 - aweful to suppress - perfect for short, mid, and some longish range - bad suppresability - mid to large targets 8.6 BLK - Suppressing perfection - mid range / big targets 12 gauge - yeah that can be done Above that you have to look to the future for anything in the AR platform that

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

450 Bushmaster is solely for people limited to straight-walled cartridges. 458 uses standard AR mags, very common .458 bullets (450 BM uses .452), and runs 250 gr bullets at 2,100fps up to 600 grain slugs at subsonic velocities. Also compared to 50 Beowulf it runs through common 46 cal silencers while the Beowulf of course needs a more obscure 50 cal silencer.

[@themazmanmechanic]

I had a 458 socom, 500grn subsonics, as much recoil as my 308..... no thanks. I moved on. Of 50 beo, 458 socom and 450bush. 458 was the only one that is intresting

[@markjohnson206]

While we’re on big bore. Do 50 GI ! Maybe follow it with 357 sig. Mass vs Velocity showdown!

[@TheFerrot]

Okay. As someone who requested the 458 hell yea. Also if Jim brings up the Franklin Arsenal Reformation again I’m gonna die of laughter. It also had a binary trigger

[@Deathlily76]

Love the more obscure rounds getting some review. If you guys ever do 45 Raptor or 338 Razorback which are some pretty fun wildcats.

[@mitchellboser2542]

black butterly ammo! Tromix is the only way to get a 458socom that runs flawless!

[@Petethepigkilla]

I'd argue CMMG does a wonderful job, though it is more like an AR12.5

[@brandiwynter]

I was super surprised that Tony Rumore or Tromix weren't even mentioned. I shoot .50 Beowulf and even I know if you're going to talk .458 SOCOM, you're going to have to include Tromix and Tony Rumore.

[@kellym3531]

Everything about the 458 is superior to the BM except popularity.

[@Eternalynoob]

Ok, 50 beowolf next?

[@EthanGolem]

I love how Ryan says “that’s a pretty special cartridge” for pretty much every cartridge that gets brought up in this show

[@PianoMan347]

4:21 it could be used to sink a boat? well no wonder it’s a lead balloon, the firearms community has enough boating accidents as it is!

[@caspermathiesen7192]

You're right. It does look vaguely like a Lombardi trophy.

[@albertlemont5471]

Underwood, precision one, black butterfly and a few others make ammo for it.

[@Funting3417]

On the next 10 min talk the 340 weatherby magnum.

[@HB-kp6rl]

I remember a dude comment on the best bear gun video and he said he had a suppressed 458 sbr that was his bear defense rifle. Also had a cop try to impress one day by telling me his duty rifle was a 458. That’s it. I dont know anyone that actually has one

[@Swollenfishy]

Jimmy it was a Franklin armory reformation “rifle” with little nerf football bullets

[@danielramsey3118]

I use a .458 socom for black bear with underwood ammo 300 grain controlled fracturing bullets.

[@jonathanneese7743]

Can yall do a podcast on the weatherby 6.5-300

[@wesleyhargis5115]

As far as mags go I run my .458 socom with standard GI aluminum mags and I've never had an issue so im not sure a modification is truly necessary.

[@LeakyJoosbox]

I want to hear more on the 6.5 prc. After the video on non-shtf guns and all the guys were behind it. I want to know the why!

[@quintonhays371]

Review the sherman short wildcats

[@zachthompson9270]

Let’s hear about 25 WSSM

[@johnrichardson4167]

Or any wssm for that matter. Agreed!

[@BigRob345]

450 Bushmaster with 300 Grn projectiles! Still haven't seen the 6BR on your podcast/youtube

[@albertlemont5471]

While I like your podcasts. This one pissed me off. This cartridge is a reloaers dream. So many bullets and starline brass. It works well for woods hunting.

[@jonhodges2957]

Same

[@jjlb82]

I know exactly what you're talking about with the smooth bore ar. Rounds looked like flechets

[@jjlb82]

And I found it Franklin armoury Reformation

[@calebhanson6108]

Can we get a 405 Winchester cartridge talk

[@jfess1911]

Going into the "it's not a rifle, honest" territory, the Russian .366 TKM and 9.6x53mm Lancaster cartridges use a twisted oval bore (similar to the 1855 US Lancaster rifle) to fall under the "shotgun category" in some countries that limit rifle ownership.

[@JR-lg7fd]

Lehi defense makes those phillips head bullets. idk if they load for the socom

[@JonnyTheViking]

@@JR-lg7fd Underwood Arms loads a 302gr Lehi extreme penetrator. 1840fps.. review comments on the UA site are telling how awesome they are.

[@CarsonSchell-l3b]

AR platform cartridge full length podcast with Jimmy, Mark, Ryan and Ruben! Everyone picks top 3, ending the podcast with Highwayman RIP Kris!

[@fishingkywatersguy7219]

Man, i stumbled upon you all about a year ago, man i am hooked. From the great interviews, advice, and Ryan and his lead ballons😂😂. I have come to love the cartridge talks. I was stoked to see one about the .458 socom since I just recently built one. It may be a lead ballon, but love shooting it and hand loading it. Keep up guys!!!

[@bassetthound2008]

The gun that Jimmy is referencing is the Franklin Armory Reformation. It was a straight groove barrel that didn't fit the definition of a shotgun or a rifle and was classified as a "firearm" originally. It was later declared to be a GCA/SBS, still a non-NFA item but basically banned it outright as there was no legal framework to transfer one to someone without an FFL. The bullets it was supposed to use looked like a mortar shell with a football shape on the front and fins on the back to have it fly straight.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

Franklin Armory did a smoothbore AR. It wasnt rifled, therefore didnt meet the definintion of a rifle, therefore couldnt be an SBR. It was sold as a stocked, short barreled "firearm" chambered in 300 BLK. It could fire normal bullets are keyhole, or use the special bullets that never got made. Franklin may have copied it from some previous design, im not sure.

[@markmiller9894]

I hunt with a .458 win mag here in Ohio. I load 325 grn flex tips at around 2600 fps. I have a vortex crossfire on it. Hammers at 50 yards, drops about 5" at 200.

[@calebdean2440]

At our small local shooting range (probably 50 different people use it in a 3 month time). I occasionally find some .458 socom brass. Always been confused to who/what has been using it because Ive found a few with split cases around the neck.

[@quentinjackson3778]

Well if it's that bad azz what is the recoil like 😮 is it like the 45-70 or 300 win mag

[@jordanmcmillan6937]

It's not as bad as either of those. It certainly packs a punch but with a good break or suppressor, tuned gas system and a decent stock, it's manageable

[@coloradosupercars]

Like a 20ga. Not bad at all

[@quentinjackson3778]

Shoot if it's like a 20 gauge that is cool I need to build one. But first I must do some research

[@BryanShull-lt8gz]

​@@quentinjackson3778you will want to reload, ammo is Xpensive!

[@quentinjackson3778]

@@BryanShull-lt8gz great I just started reloading my own 9mm and 45 acp rounds

[@Persuasian338]

Had a 458 socom pre covid. Sold it during, and now I want one again. But may build a bolt gun. Really meant for the 50gr subs.

[@Designhunter9125]

458 socom 500 gr maker Rex out of a 16” custom bolt rifle subsonic suppressed is a hammer

[@ArthriticAngler]

Tromix!

[@262fire3]

There are some length laws in straight wall states. I alway have a plan to make a sbr in 458 socom just for shits and giggles. Of course I would probably suppress it the year after.

[@amn1308]

17:11 mine uses a H4 buffer If I had it to do again I'd probably have gotten 450 Bushmaster instead.

[@albertlemont5471]

Not a lead balloon at all. I run a 325FTX at 1800fps. It absolutely poleaxes black bear. All in a AR15.

[@TravisNewlove]

Franklin armoury, made a smooth bore sbr ar15. They tried to market it with a flacette projectiles. All the research and tests proved it to be a failure.

[@ThatGuy-kf7fo]

Finally! Great to see more cartridge talks. How about the 284 Winchester?

[@brandiwynter]

I remember the weird smoothbore gun lol. I give them credit for thinking out of the box but the final result was lacking greatly lol.

[@kaseyowens3065]

Franklin armory is not happy that you brought up their straight rifled AR 😂😂😂 they want that thing to fade into obscurity

[@bradleyhughes6853]

Mark, the only thing keeping a 458 Lott from being used in a straight wall zone or state is when the state has a max length restriction.

[@MaliciousMonster]

At least im not the only person that likes 458 lott for whitetail

[@adamresnick9027]

I loved the 450 Bushmaster that I had. The AR lead balloons talk will be a good one!

[@stephencooper5040]

24:11 That was Franklin Armory, though i forget the model name.

[@jonathanmitchell3733]

I don't like it. It's only really good for one or two things, and just about any other cartridge is better at those jobs.

[@TheIamfrustrated]

Good to see Jim again! I'm up for anything tabled.

[@jfess1911]

My memory is that the idea was to be able to disable boat engines to stop them from running rather than actually damage the boat.

[@jonathandiehl8006]

30 Gibbs cartridge talk please! Or the JDJ’s

[@brandonschilling9020]

Had Ryan ever shot a .378 Weatherby?

[@paulfaggart3423]

"I don't know what that is" So serious. 😂

[@swiftyuras1]

MAC had a few videos on that smooth bore AR.

[@TrapperE6107]

17 hornet cartridge talk