11 Reasons Why I Won't Buy Another Bosch Ebike

[@Norcalflat]

I was expecting this video to just be another "product bashing" video, but was pleasantly surprised. I appreciate how you specified the Bosch didn't work for you, and then went into the reasons why, and why the alternative did work for you. I was interested in a Bosch assisted bike, and after watching your video, I still want a Bosch, because it still fits my riding style and needs, but now I feel even more confident in that decision. I will have to find another way to deal with puddles, though. And still riding at 78? Inspiring! I hope to make it to 78, I'll just focus on getting back on the bike for now.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Since you are aware of Bosch's advantages and drawbacks, you will no doubt be happy with your purchase. Thanks for your comment.

[@flyshacker]

You make a very clear case. Great job! I don’t happen to share your sentiments - quite the opposite! I hated my test ride of the Pedigo. I don’t like throttle ebikes or any ebikes without a torque sensor. Fair enough. To each his own. I’m glad there are lots of options out there. Happy riding! Wishing you many happy miles!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you for being open minded about personal preferences. That's what will make our world a better place.

[@djayfrank]

Another thought provoking piece, Robert. Thanks for your ongoing analysis!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for your support, Dennis.

[@mohsinsheikh1961]

@@RobertBeriault753 Nice video! I have cube touring hybrid one 500 ebike, since it is a paddle assist and due to my health requirements I would like to add throttle to my cube ebike, please advise / guide on how to go about having throttle control installed in it. Thank you

[@srspower]

As soon as you put a throttle on a ebike it's no longer a bike, it's a scooter.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Maybe I didn't mention that in North America the throttle doesn't disqualify the bike as an ebike.

[@CamelliaSinensis]

This sounds very nuanced and reasonable, hard to find such quality discourse on the internet, you sir are my new favourite youtuber!

[@RobertBeriault753]

thank you so much.

[@richtidd]

Robert. This video & your other ones are very well done & highly informative. I have a Reise & Muller Delite e-bike with two (duel) Bosh batteries. I go on long 50 mile bike rides as well as tours. Last one was two weeks caring about 100lbs in panniers. It has the CX mid drive motor with a Rohloff hub. I like my bike very much. It works for me at this time being 62 years old. I see & understand your reasons & they make sense. I too looked into solar charging the Delite but found the same info as you did. Also, my Delite cannot be operated under charge as some bikes can. I do not think any Bosh bike can. What I do now is carry one battery charger all the time for day rides & two while touring. I plan to get an addition one or two batts & carry them for extra distance. Currently I get about 75 mile on both bats with 100lbs load. It pulls hills well even steep grades but as you know, I am working my ass off. Last Nov I did a 350 mile two week tour on flats & very hill roads. Two of the days was in heave rain. One day was about 6 hrs & another day was 4 hrs in the rain. The 6hr rain day was the hilliest. Up to 14% grade in the rain. For Info: Marissa Muller road across the US on a Specializes Standardised e-bike with a large solar panel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5C2eKKhlsR_sKs . Thanks for all your info.

[@RobertBeriault753]

A couple of years ago I saw a R&M exactly like yours and I fell in love with it. Sounds like you're making very good use of your bike. And you don't travel light either! 😉Since I have a profound hatred of chains and derailleurs, I was attracted to the idea of belt drive and geared hub. But I decided against it because I couldn't see how to attach my Burley trailer to the hub. I mistakenly thought that the trailer would bounce around because of the bike's suspension, but later found out that was wrong. I watched Marissa's video a few years ago. She had a nice setup. Thanks for sharing your experience with me.

[@ernestjean7483]

Thank you for a wonderful explanation. For those over 50, your video gives a wonderful examples of pros and cons of hub drive and mid drive drive systems.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad it was helpful!

[@AlaskaTeacherTech]

I can see how the Bosch system may not be a good fit for the style of riding you prefer, Robert. I ride almost entirely off road on trails. I have put over 2200 miles in all seasons in Alaska and the Yukon on my Felt Outfitter with the Bosch Performance line system. For me it is a perfect fit. It is a fat tire bike with 5inch studded 26' tires in winter, 4 inch in summer. I am only 62. I love the mid-drive pedal assist with no throttle. Recently, US Dept. of Interior opened many National Park trails and other areas to eBikes on any trails open to regular bikes, provided they were pedal assist only and had no throttle. There is a learning curve to balance the power from the assist levels with the 1x12 10-42 SRAM X1 drive, but once you have this dialed in, riding a variety of terrain, surfaces, and conditions becomes very rewarding. For mountain biking and off road riding, I think the mid-drive system with a quality drive train has many advantages over the hub motor systems. I have also been very impressed with Bosch's customer service, quality, and service. To each his own. May you get many more miles and years of enjoyment out of whatever eBike you choose to ride!

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think you've made a wise choice of bike for your needs. Fat bikes on trails must be fun. I'll have to try that. In fact, I'm thinking of getting one for winter riding. Some of the city bicycle paths are now plowed in the winter. Gatineau Park has put aside some of its forest trail for mountain bikes. Thanks for sharing your story and for giving me another thing to forward to.

[@DilipBanerjee]

First of all, helmets off to you for having remained an active cyclist and adventurer. I'm a mere 60 years old and can only hope to follow your example. Currently, I am happily riding a Yamaha mid drive, but I can appreciate the good reasons you gave in favour of hub motors and I am eager to try one out one day. My charger comes with a 60% option, but an 80% would be a useful feature for every charger. Solar charging for long distance tours is something I would like to tinker with in the near future. Happy trails 😄!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you for your interest in my bicycle endeavours and your good wishes.

[@longrider42]

I converted my Recumbent into a front wheel drive Ebike, and its wonderful. Did take some time to get used to the new steering weight, but in the end, I love it. Also with the motor on the front and the battery on the rear rack, the weight is spread out a bit more.

[@marsBeBelinda]

I do like that feeling of being pulled in the recumbent trike.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Makes sense. Sounds nice.

[@marsBeBelinda]

@@RobertBeriault753 Robert I immediately knew that my comments might be considered inappropriate in that I kind of assumed that he was referring to a trike. Having a recumbent and having a trike are very different. Most tricorders perhaps have them be recumbent. The numbers don't actually matter the sample size is too small in reality. Electric augmentation of human muscle Is theme in the unicycle? Of course? I can see the theme maybe a better word than scene to the dictation engine. I don't concede however, that can see is a better phrase than the word concede. So I can seed That is by conceding. I can indeed seed our future. I just rejected the word feed. Even though it is what I mean by seed. My goal is to feed the rough disruption even created. Creating disruption is a new type of disruption disruption. The people who have the billions of dollars that presently funds for disruptive disruption have this conflict of interest. The conflict-of-interest cuts very deep . You see it in the sexual harassment that they get involved into? The electronic unicycle in the hands of children is resistance by the present pricing which is necessary to support multi kilowatt hour battery packs. The new higher power electric unicycle has several times the torque of either of the bikes you have discussed. It is basically a 3 horsepower. Motor with an under one kilowatt hour battery option. 41 single wheel. UC electrifying a recumbent is madness. The electric or whatever augmentation of human muscle power. Changes the parameters that you engineer the best solution. With him. Religiosity may be more transparent according to this dictation engine then saying something abstract like the parameters that the environment allows us to engineer for. So I leave that dictation error as well. Having additional energy available allows an upright writing Foster the People prefer. Even a single wheel. Everybody knows the Dyson moved from the wheel to the sphere. Having a sphere means that you have the part that you stand on. Have 360 degrees. This allows somebody your age to use the sphere to write on because there is no risk of falling. Some people would say that I ignore the evolution of her own bodies that empowers the unicycle. How do you say I'm aware that our ability to know whether something is perfectly horizontal or perfectly vertical and that I have always known that this is our brain. I am not as naive as I try to be. What evolution has given us or whoever gave it to us can be an impediment to overly respect. I understand that artificial intelligence is better than it was in the 1970s. In the 1970s you needed to work with the brain more. In order to augment it now the electric sphere that you can write on. Does not need to have a specific species right on it. Almost any animal can learn and thrive on such a vehicle. Dogs cats rodents reptiles snakes Birds dolphins Turtles worms whatever It's just too electric unicycles put together, of course. The one you ride on rides on the sphere. The sphere rides on the larger sphere we call our world. The thing about electric unicycles is that they are designed in a way that makes no sense. They need the gravitational. Effect or inertial resistance and they need spinning, Mass. The original design had an extremely lightweight battery. The most popular models now are 95 + percent battery weight. However, if the battery does not spin. A paragraph Not spinning the battery in a inertial stabilized system. Made sense in the original design Then the NBA's get involved and say hey people are willing to pay us more and increase our profit. Margin if we put three kilowatt-hours of incendiary material in Bear Wheel that they don't need and that will prevent them from letting their kids. Use these machines. Instead of buying an Apple iPad for your toddler. You should buy them in electric sphere. Whatever Whatever it is, we know that cell phones and tablets are not for kids. Kids need modern Mobility examples not toy rideable monstrous cancerous toxic irrational evil grooming.

[@SimonHollandfilms]

Bonjour Robert. I agree completely. especially your point for older e bike riders, like me, who need an extra push with starting off at a junction or hill. ... regen would be a nice hub drive feature, here in hilly Dordogne France.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you for your interest.

[@GregSpeck]

Just bought IZip and Trek with Bosch power and have no problems. Glad as I was your age last week, but now 79 and the assistance really helps. I now ride with the next younger group and get a good workout with a good boat with the Bosch power plant. You pt together a good video explaining many points. Ebikes are in their infancy but moving very quickly.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for your input...and keep on keeping active!

[@NoobixCube]

I’m only just dipping my toes into the fact finding phase of getting my first e-bike. The Bosch motors looked appealing, at first, and I know Bosch as a good, reliable company, but I didn’t realise they were so restrictive.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Like buying a sailboat, buying an ebike will be a matter of setting priorities with regards to our intended uses and accepting that every plus also has a minus. In all fairness, some Bosch customers would be able to list 11 reasons why they like it.

[@NoobixCube]

@@RobertBeriault753 My current crusade is to try and get a BetterBike PEBL, but the motor is just outside the legal rating for use in Australia (it’s technically a motorcycle, here). I was hoping I could custom order one with a Bosch 250W motor fitted, because they seemed like the highest torque option readily available to consumers (and for a heavier vehicle like a PEBL, the wattage really is about acceleration and torque more than speed) but it seems that’d be a bad idea, now.

[@hansenyue]

@@NoobixCube wondering where abouts in australia are you. I'm riding a derestricted bike with a bosche motor and haven't really had any issues (being pulled over etc)

[@NoobixCube]

@@hansenyue I'm in Melbourne. Victoria's ebike laws are the most restrictive in the country. I could probably get away with an overpowered ebike that looks like an ordinary ebike, but I can guarantee I'd be frequently pulled over in something as unfamiliar as a PEBL.

[@hansenyue]

@@NoobixCube i'm in Melbourne as well and yeah if you have something that looks like a bicycle you won't get bothered. most of the time people that get pulled over are the ones that either are riding ebikes that look like scooters or Motocross bikes i actually have only seen a PEBL on the road once

[@hansenyue]

i have an bosche Performance line Bike since 2019 so far its really good. haven't had any problems no corruption issues.. i've also had mine derestricted as well so none of that also bosche does provide a fast charger for those who want it

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for your report. I'm glad you are satisfied with your Bosch.

[@hansenyue]

@@RobertBeriault753 definitely

[@davidj.jorgensen4828]

Speedbox 3.0 / 2.0

[@bjrnclausen978]

12:00 I enjoy your review but i dissagree with the advantage of front hub motor in the winter. I am running a 250 W front hub motor in the snow - and if i use more than 20% power i will completely loose steering - on dry road the front hub is the best - better weight distribution.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for sharing your experience. That's something I didn't know. It makes sense. I was repeating what I heard on a KZbin video. Now I can't remember who that was.

[@bigfoot-g4i]

i live in the uk and i bought a folding fat tyre ebike with throttle 500w motor 48v 16ah battery it can go upto 25mph ive been on the main roads with it doing 25mph sometimes had numerous cop cars pass me ive had it 12 months now.so what im saying is, a lot of people are ignoring the ebike laws in the uk and across most of europe and im one of them.250w motor is not enough power if you have a bad knee of heart problems.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think the same applies here as far as enforcement of max power and speeds. i've heard that a 250 Watt motor can be made to put out 1000 Watts if you just give it more amperage.

[@claudiolordino2192]

Glad you're still out there at 78; I am 69 and still going and will continue to do so as long as the body permits. I have a Riese and Muller Roadster Vario with the Gen 4, Bosch High Speed motor (28MPH and 85nm to torque). I like everything about it except the noise it makes in any of the modes. . . Eco, Tour, Sport, and Turbo. I tried the Stromer ST2 ebike, with the Gates carbon belt drive and 5-speed hub gear from Sturmey Archer; it is very quiet. Both are high quality ebikes, and I could feel the differences of the mid frame Bosch and the rear hub Stormer. I still prefer the Bosch system; it pulls so much harder and better in battery management. As far as charging, I just unplug it when I have 4-bars instead of the full 5. Keep riding!

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think I'd go for the 14 gear Rholoff internal gear hub for towing my camper up those steep hills. I really love the idea of a carbon belt. I hate having to clean a dirty filthy greasy chain and cassette! I'm glad you like your bike.

[@xWHITExEAGLEx]

Great video sir. You have highlighted the difference between cadence and torque sensing. I'm a young and fit fella but I still prefer a cadence one where I don't have to work hard if I was wearing nice clothes and don't want to be sweaty or out of breath when I need to be presentable when I arrive somewhere.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Good point. Thanks.

[@Tricyklist]

A fascinating, intelligent and articulate discussion of your arguments. That said, your "needs" are slightly different from most other e-bike owners. Though I still find many of your points valid. I am 76 and still riding up to 90km in a day, year round. Recently I chose a '45' 28mph e-bike with full suspension. Simply to exceed the speed and range I was managing comfortably on my touring road bike. Despite my being skinny and very fit I was getting too breathless on climbs to continue without some assistance. In Europe a throttle is not allowed. To pull away, even on a steep climb, I simply choose a higher assistance mode in a lower gear for effortless acceleration. Unfortunately a trailer is not allowed on these faster e-bikes. No doubt a later and stronger Bosch motor and more modern control panel would still help your cause. Thanks for your thoughtful presentation. BTW: A Bosch charger can be turned off when you see four bars lit instead of five bars. 80%.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Our needs differ from one another and they change with time and age. You have found what's best for you and that's great. I didn't know about the four bar - 80% thing. Thanks sharing your thoughts.

[@HeathenRides]

Have you had any problems with Bosch gen 3 performance line because of rain? I'm worried because I can see the pinions because it's a hole in the motor behind the chain ring i dont Know why it's there..also the rubber thing to close the charging port doesn't look very thigth ..I guess these things is why it Says only handwash will with Water

[@RobertBeriault753]

No. I've ridden in the rain often, and always left it out in the open all night when camping. It has survived severe thunderstorms without any electrical problem.

[@HeathenRides]

@@RobertBeriault753 thank you for this answer because it has become my work bike now and it's raining today..do you know if it's mentioned anything about rain and warranty? And do you know why there's a hole in the motor ,,is it air condition or do you think I should put tape over it?

[@RobertBeriault753]

Are you talking about small, rectangular holes in the bottom, or does your motor have holes in the top?

[@HeathenRides]

@@RobertBeriault753 it's a hole behind the chain ring you can see the pinions there,, you have to look really close,,if you take the chain ring of it's easy to see but you don't need to.its located on the upper part of the side right side behind the front sprocket/chain ring about the Same place as the charging port just on the opposite side.. about two o clock on the chain ring (if the chain ring was a watch). It's not hard to find

[@HeathenRides]

It's a cube reaction Bosch performance line gen 3motor

[@soundwave6769]

had my performance motor for 5 years now on a fs haibike with a dongle to remove the speed limit and the orignal batt is still going but down on range what takes the piss is if i take it to a dealer for a update its £45

[@RobertBeriault753]

That's too much. Have you tried other Bosch dealers?

[@soundwave6769]

@@RobertBeriault753 there all the same but i have not had my bike updated since i bought it 5 years ago if it aint broke dont fix it ;)

[@RobertBeriault753]

If at some point you find that your motor stops in mid ride, then it will be time to have it updated. Good luck.

[@madhu564]

This is brilliant, just what I needed to know. Thank you so much!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad it was helpful!

[@grizzlycountry5539]

Bosch makes a 6A fast charger and it cost about 150 eur. Motors above 250w are not legal in EU without registration. Last winter I went to a store where I bought the bike and I wanted to update it, they sad to me it is not a bicycle season, come back next summer.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I didn't know there were Grizzlys in Europe. The 6A charger would be useful for someone like me who might have to charge while having lunch in a restaurant.

[@JoLe1991]

The bosch performance line motor is just pretty weak. the problem with playing with the advantage of regenerative braking down steep hills is, that during uphill, the hub motor is way less efficient (thus wasting more battery ) than the mid drive if geared properly. So in the end you don't really use less battery, but rather more. You do wear out break pads significantly less, though. The main factors that influence the decision between hub drive vs mid drive are: -do you ride hills any steeper than 10%? if yes, mid drive is the only way -do you want minimal bike maintenance? if yes, hub drive is the way -do you want to avoid motor overheating? mid drive is the way to go I use the Bafang BBS02 mid drive bolt on motor, it is very powerful, pretty silent and lightweight for the torque it puts out. It will fit on any regular bike with a 68 or 73mm Bottom bracket and is fully programmable. Also you can charge the battery with any charger or solar panels (with an appropriate charge controller) as long as the terminal voltage is set correctly. This is simply not possible with the proprietary BMS built into Bosch (and other big brands') batteries.

[@RobertBeriault753]

My thinking about these issues is evolving along the same line as yours. I've pretty well reached the conclusion that my next ebike will have a Bafang mid drive motor, for the reasons you mention. Brake pads and chains aren't all that expensive.

[@ankjohnson1]

Bosch make reliable systems that will last for years. By not letting people "hack" them they have achieved this reputation.

[@JoLe1991]

@@ankjohnson1 well, nothing lasts forever. my issue is that they won't sell replacement components to repair the drives (let alone batteries..). take the bafang mid drive motors. you can buy every single part as a replacement in case of failure. If the bosch battery wears out (normal after 500 cycles) you can theoretically swap out the cells for new ones. however it's not uncommon to see the proprietary BMS fail. The motor will not run with a 3rd party BMS. So your only option is to buy a new battery for 700$ or so...

[@JustClaude13]

Your reasons for why some might want the Bosch mid-drive are pretty much why I went with the Bafang mid-drive kit for my commuter bike. Weight low and centered, variable torque through the bike's gearing and a slightly lighter system. It also reduces unsprung weight if your bike has suspension, for a better ride. One thing I would never accept is a rack mounted battery. I carry things on the rack and already sometimes have problems with the front wheel hopping when starting quickly on uphill grades. I'm thinking of going to a mid-tail cargo bike to move my weight farther forward.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I agree that te rear rack is the worst place for a battery for the reasons you mention. Thanks for sharing your observations.

[@jimj2683]

I can recommend regenerative braking very strongly. I used to change brake pads (disc brakes) every month. Now I only change them once every couple of years! It saves so much time and hassle. I am using the GMAC 8T motor from Grin.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'm glad to hear you are using the GMAC, because that's what I'm thinking to use for my DIY.

[@jimj2683]

@@RobertBeriault753 The main problem with the GMAC is that it overheats relatively easy if you have long and steep hills with a heavy load. The All-axle hub motor with Statorade is better for that, but it has a less effective regen and it has lower torque and efficiency. But the motor simulator on the Grin website is very realistic.

[@TheNone724]

5:20 in Finland you can have throttle, 1000W nominal motor and top speed of 25 kmh on L1e-a electric bike but you need insurance.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I don't know if I mentioned it, but in Canada the motor of an electric assist bike can have up to 500 Watts, a throttle is allowed (in the majority of jurisdictions) and no insurance is required. Thanks for your interest.

[@charlesgiuliana6430]

Very informative presentation, practical insight on hub vs mid drive and Bosch functionality’s. Your explanation will be helpful in my purchase of my first Ebike, Thank you

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad it was helpful!

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

I appreciate your knowledge ! I am still wondering if expensive, heavy eBikes are worth the trouble.

[@RobertBeriault753]

You and me both!

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

@@RobertBeriault753 lol! To be honest, I own a *lectricXP2* which I love riding for grocery grabbing and local riding. Today I tested a few *Riess&Muller* eBikes, and find that my cheap lectricXP is so much more a _kick in the pants_ than the throttleless class2 German bikes. The R&M bikes ride like velvet! Very high quality, but my aging body needs alot of help and they are much more of a pure riding experience. Making me feel that if they didn't weigh so damned much, one wouldn't need the electric motor whatsoever! Oh well.... cheers!

[@johny8034]

A great pleasure to watch your videos.

[@RobertBeriault753]

So nice of you

[@RobertBeriault753]

Certainly, mid-drives have some advantages. But they aren't suitable for my needs.

[@minimax9452]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. If you want to go with a bike-trailer Bosch has special solutions. With my recent motor from Bosch I also can manipulate the torque-line with the software an website. It is really easy. So you can adjust the torque to your needs. Last week Bosch has announced a software-update for performance-line Ch (gen4) from 75 Nm to 85 Nm of torque. All the best and stay healthy!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for the information about what's new with Bosch with regard to torque.

[@viliusr.8792]

how about having two sistems in one bike? rear wheel engine controlled with throttle and mid bosch engine controlled by pedaling and with two batteries one in the back and one middle.

[@RobertBeriault753]

That's a new idea as far as I know. I've never seen such a combination. I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work. It would give the best of both worlds.

[@viliusr.8792]

double the range if two identical batteries, excelent control at low speeds and perfect for high speeds. Price can imagine 4000-6000 usd :)

[@lovemadeinjapan]

Nice way to circumvent the 250W limit. The law probably does not calculate in that possibility!

[@smokeyliver5736]

So i just lost my money by buying the Cuba emtb now i have error 504 ?

[@RobertBeriault753]

I don't know what error 504 is about, but I'm sure Bosch has a solution for it. Good luck.

[@smokeyliver5736]

@@RobertBeriault753 i just wanna ride around at 30-35 km/t and dont have to go get new software every 2 months so i hope so:) great video

[@jbgrooves]

Thank you for this review. I was doing my research and about to drop a couple of grand on a Bosch motor'd e-bike. I too am a senior and this review made so much sense to me. I guess I'm going to have to realign my research for a decent, not (totally) made in china hub motor bike with an easy step through.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'm glad I could help you make an informed decision.

[@Simon-cb4bq]

I don’t like throttle e-bikes or any e-bikes without a torque sensor so I love my Haibike Trekking SDURO with Bosch performance 65nm mid-drive. Also, Throttle e-bikes are considered mopeds here in Sweden. But I do understand your needs for throttle bikes with wheel engines because you are not a young man anymore and hey it is awesome that you're even out riding still and mad respect to you for that! I hope to be out riding at your age in the future! :D

[@RobertBeriault753]

Hope you can too when you reach my age. And it's good that you're satisfied with your purchase.

[@lidotrijsturis]

If you need to work with dogs with bosh e-baik, then turn on turbo assist mode. After a bosh upgrade, it's not just a turbo, but a pretty clever mode, if you're driving against the wind then it should help a lot. Should try. anyway, you are right about many things and experiences, but it is only because each manufacturer makes its own bicycle, it is like sports shoes and rubber boots, in summer with rubber boots will be not carried, but with sports shoes in winter it will be cold and slippery feet

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'll look into upgrades. Thanks for your comment.

[@scottrocks1993]

You were pretty much spot on with everything you said. But you didn't mentioned The difference between direct drive hub motor & geared hub motor.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I guess I just lumped the two types of motors together because they have more in common with each other than mid-drives. For most people the differences don't matter too much. Thanks for the idea. I might be able to make a video explaining the differences and reasons for picking one over the other.

[@lewiss66]

Great video , thanks. As a solare charging system you can use the jackery explorer 240W along with its solar pannel and plug the bosch charger to recharge the battery of the bike. (Not sure if still possible while riding the bike)

[@RobertBeriault753]

It should work. Let me know how you like it if you try it.

[@lewiss66]

@@RobertBeriault753 Ok I will. For info, I've got the new bosch smart system with the Kiox 300. This setup is not the most efficient (3kg jackery exp+ 1kg charger for 240 w compared to a 2.5kg 400Wh power rack battery) but it'll let you use the solar pannel to recharge. Thanks

[@lovemadeinjapan]

Thanks, nice sum up. I've some to add: - 12 Bosch is doing weird math on speed calculations. v=s/t*1.06 Why is there a 1.06 factor? Strange enough, the distance calculation is correct. So a Bosch e-bike can basically go 23 k/m with assistance max, not 25. - 13 The batteries have a self-bricking electronics. They brick the BMS if you want to change cells yourself - 14 The motor has anti-tamper measures. If you want to change parameters to have a nicer roll-off in support, big chance it gets into low-power moder - 15 No repair options for DIY. I have a cargo bike, and no bike dealer wants those bikes in their repair shop. So you need a system that is open for self repair. Bosch isn't.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Those are four compelling reasons, albeit a bit too technical for me to have thought of them. Thanks for your input.

[@TheNone724]

It would seem that you would want direct drive back hub motor with 45A controller and 48v battery. If you ignore the law Mxus 3k turbo is best direct drive hub motor for normal bike frames and it has very high torque with good battery and powerful controller. Mxus 30h is also good choice but it can't handle power as well but it has cassette for wide range of gears. Direct drive hub motors are: quiet, reliable, simple, provide very good power and torque, can have regen. You can also have torque sensing bottom bracket and get torque sensing and throttle in same bike. All these hub motors need two torque arms so frame doesn't break.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Useful information. Thank you.

[@Benjamin_Jehne]

You will not get effective regen braking, because you need a direct drive hub motor, and that thing needs to much power. Aspecialy with your trailer. You’ll need a big motor to get you going and it has to be really powerful, to produce effective regen braking, what is just a gimmick on normal 500W motors. Yes, a bosch motor is not made for what you use it for. Fast charging is possible with the 4A charger, you can purchase for every powerpack. I also have a bike with a hub motor and a bosch mid drive, and when someone ask me what is better, it’s hard to tell. The Bosch is the one, that work’s extremely accurate, porwerful where it has to be and very efficent. 500Wh and over 100km is not a problem. 500Wh and a hubdrive, forget it. Maybe 60-70km and thats just with a 250W motor. They’re just uneffective, but a fun to ride. If somethings happen, you will find a Bosch dealer faster than someone who can fix the China software of the Pedego. Here in Europe it might be even easier. What I hate the most about most mid drives is the sound. They’re to noisy. With my hub drive, it’s so smooth and close to noise free. Thats why I kept them both, when I want a relaxt tour, I take the hub motor driven and when I need something effecive and powerful for long rides, it’s the bosch.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for sharing your experience and for the information. There is no perfect ebike like there is no perfect sailboat.

[@julianshepherd2038]

Just got my second and i love them.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Either none of the 11 reasons apply to you, or none of them matters to you. Then you've made the best choices for you. Enjoy them! The Cube I had was a nice bike in spite of the issues I had with it.

[@coms00]

My background… 42 years road, urban riding and touring, was a rather strong rider back in the day. I bought a cheap hub drive folder from an older fellow whose wife crashed the bike before ever turning the key. I would eventually like a high end ebike, maybe a R&M… would like the benefits of belt drive for sure, but… they have no throttle! So, I get out in the morning for exercise and a sporty ride on one of my standards and in the evening I go out on the ebike for a light pleasure ride. Sometimes I ride out with minimal assist but might go full throttle on the return 😁 So, based on your testimonial, I’m off mid drive bikes because I want a throttle… for the fun of it! BTW, I also ride an 80 cc scooter and 110 cc vintage motorcycle, they both have throttles 😆

[@RobertBeriault753]

Long live the thottle!😊 Too bad an R&M doesn't have a throttle.

[@coms00]

@@RobertBeriault753 yep, agreed… but mid drive bikes just don’t have a throttle, guess it just not doable

[@evgeniy6500]

Hello. What do you think about the Brose motor compared to the Bosch? Have you tried using a Brose motor? How reliable is it?

[@RobertBeriault753]

I had never heard of Brose, so I appreciate your question. I looked up the Brose website. I have to admit it's an elegant design, but I can't answer your question about its reliability. Thanks.

[@n1ckyr930]

I've just got an ebike with the basic activeline motor on it (which I think is 40nm) and I love it ... I had a hub drive before and the Bosch feels way more natural with no surges in power delivery.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I agree with this point. It would be so much better if you could dial up the level of assistance with a throttle. But if you don' t need more power, it is superior to cadence sensing systems.

[@n1ckyr930]

@@RobertBeriault753 Yes totally, it just depends on expectations and usage .. it works very well for me and my usage but I can understand that if you are looking for a more assisted option it might not be the best fit. I'm in the UK so we don't have the option of a throttle, the regulations here for e-bikes are that they must be pedal assisted and limited to 250 watts, anything that is either throttle powered or over 250 watts is no longer considered an e-bike and therefore would need to be road registered and insured like a motorbike/car would be.

[@RobertBeriault753]

And here distances between towns are much greater. Everything is more spread out.

[@priayief]

I viewed this video more than a year ago. And I purchased my first e-bike about 19 months ago (Trek Verve e-step). There's nothing like experience to inform you what you really need in an e-bike. Here's my thoughts since viewing your video the first time. Mid-drive v hub drive: I couldn't agree more that a hub-drive is better. In the (admittedly rare) even that the chain de-rails, because of the chain guard, it is almost impossible (unless you have specialized tools and skill) to re-mount the chain on this bike). Pedal assist:

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad you made a good choice.

[@OKFrax-ys2op]

I own 2 Bosch bicycles, one touring and one mountain bike. First they are UL approved, they are very durable and never had any problems, I talked to a fellow ride who had no issues with 7500 miles of use. If a flat tire occurs it’s easier to repair with a mid drive.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Each has its advantages and drawbacks.

[@o00scorpion00o]

My Biggest mistake was getting rid of my Mac 8T geared hub motor for the Bosch, while the Bosch is a fantastic system if I'm climbing steep hills and my legs or mostly knees get tired or start to pain I have to release pressure off the peddles and when I do this the Bosch greatly reduces power because it's torque sensing where as with my old MAC 8T motor I could whizz up hills no problem, though it was a lot more powerful. 2 Kw 48 volts it could do 30 mph and had a throttle. The other issue with the Bosch is that without motor power it's a pain to peddle as there is far too much resistance in the motor to pedal for any length without power, my MAC 8t Motor had a clutch that disengaged when the motor power was off and this meant the bike felt normal to pedal without power. I also hate that 15.5 Mph limit because at that point you're fighting the resistance of the motor and it's tough. I believe that Bosch has only just fixed this pedal resistance issue on their 2020+ motors. No throttle and 15.5 Mph limit is extremely bad here in Europe while those E-Scooters get to have a throttle ans whizz about at 20 mph or more, it's a disgrace that ebikes are so handicapped here. I'm now going to check out the Bafang powered ebikes because they can give out up to 120 Nm of torque vs the 50 Nm of my 2013 Bosch + there are brose powered ebikes out there too with 120 Nm of torque but in Europe same thing, 15.5 Mph limit and no throttle. It's also worth noting that for Hill climbing and pulling heavy loads the mid drive will probably be better, more efficient because it can use the bikes gearing, a hub motor can't and a hub likes to spin fast to be efficient so when slowing down on steep hills the hub motor will not be efficient and you rish over heating a hub on steep hills especially pulling a heavy load so check out the Bafang or Brose powered bikes for more power, bafang also sell mid drive bikes with throttle. They're getting good reviews.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Good points. Thanks for sharing your experience. It's too bad that you have regrets.

[@paulenright]

Thanks Robert for the timely info ...We have have recently been considering ebike, pro cons hub mid etc and not getting any younger 🙂...thanks for adding in winter use ie front hub as we also live in wintery Canada... your thoughts/ ebike performance for cold weather use. Thanks. Regards Janice, Paul...❄🚲👋

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad to help

[@MilenkoMarkov]

I'm riding Bosch Active line but this is a great analysis.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you. I hope you're satisfied with your Bosch. It does have some great qualities.

[@tbilllera]

Robert. I found the complexity of the Pedego a problem. Both my wife and I had Boomerangs and both had issues and were returned for Specialized Turbo Comos. (They are mid drive Brose motors ). Question: How do you like the Pedego memory seat on your bike ? I’ve been thinking of changing my stock seat to the Pedego seat. It’s about 1.5” wider. Thanks.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think Pedego have painted themselves into a corner. With thousands of bikes with the battery in the wrong place (it should not be on the rear rack), with a poorly designed frame and an even more poorly designed battery sleeve, the box that holds the battery on the rack. Glad you like your Specialized bikes. I have to hand it to Pedego. They make the most comfortable saddle I've ever ridden on. I bought one for my Bosch Cube.

[@BC24FOX]

Hi! Have you looked for an electric Motorbike or making a custom ebike with what parts/power you need ? Nice video :)

[@RobertBeriault753]

The problem with motorbikes is that they don't have pedals. I do like to supply some of the propulsion power myself. Also, I don't need more speed than what an ebike gives. I am looking into a DIY custom ebike. Eventually I'll have to make a compromise if I want that extra torque for going up hills. Thanks for your question.

[@reynoldpeterson4346]

Yes Robert I agree with you re Bosch drives there hard work against the wind or step uphill nice revue thanks ren

[@RobertBeriault753]

Right on!

[@ankjohnson1]

That's because they are used in eBIKES, rather than eSCOOTERS-they are designed to assist, not do the work for you.

[@Tredjehjul]

Hello Robert, Great video, I really appreciate your passion for biking reagardless how many seasons you already saw! I work with bike hire and we have over 20 e-bikes FS and Hardtails mostly with Bosch CX performance. I agree with your observations as I do own hub motor MTB myself and can compare, however: - Fast chargers for Bosch do exist! From memory: normal delivers about 2A, fast one around 4A. They are almost 1.5x bigger and about the same heavy...Not sure if non-performance battery can handle fast charging though. - Hub motor makes rear wheel on MTB hardtail tail heavy and hard to control downhill, I could not keep up with my friends on Bosch'es as I was everywhere on the stony track even on the fat bike. - I would love to add torque sensor to my hub motor somehow as I like how Bosch is gently adding power not just going 0 or 1 which with 500W hub motor is not a gentle push. Happy riding!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for your insights. There's nothing inherent to hub motors that precludes torque sensing, it's just that most manufacturers go for the cheaper cadence technology.

[@hslot6462]

The cutting out of the bosch motor had it too when i was doing 51 kmh disconnect battery slide it in again and done :) Btw why not put some solar cells on your cart free recharge when your having a tea or coffee break :)

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'm still toying with the idea of solar power, but I haven't done anything concrete since my solar cargo trailer: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5qthnWAgbaVbNE Problem is, it would take 2 sq. metres of solar panels for me to be self-sufficient with my caravan.

[@kmom777]

Hi guys i understand person opinion you want speed and you have to pedal extra hard to archive it with bosch the reason for that is because it is restricted it give you resistance in order to be in the speed limit while the other ebikes does not have that resistance when pedalling just help you until 25 miles and then you can continue on your own in order to avoid that resistance you need to spend another 200$ or 150 for speed box 3 for latest 2020 bosch bikes or for prevous models speed box 2. you just to remove the pedals on 1 side and open just the plastic cover of the motor not the motor itself and there are 2 inputs for cables plug the "Speed box 3" cable there (plug and play like usb) and then with the press of the walk button you remove the restriction and the bike accelerate super fast however the battery last 3 times less to be more specific 500W battery start to last on a full speed 45km\h (27.9617 miles) (or more if you pedal hard) it last exactly around 13 miles range which is not as advertised. From my experiance best motors are BAFANG chines ones the DIY mid motor BBS HD or the new integrated into the frame ones. Crazy speed, best torque and the consumption is not too bad 13Mah battery (huge one) don''t know in Wats how much is but must be the biggest one 500W with this one i've been doing more than 20 miles and still half battery left doing 90km/h speed it (nearly 60 miles/h) www.speedbox-tuning.com/p/speedbox-3-0-for-bosch and lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-middrive-kit/

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you for this very interesting hack and for the link that leads us to where to buy it. It's nice to know that there is a way of improving the Bosch system.

[@neogen23]

Excellent analysis of the subject. Well done!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you kindly!

[@jbarjj2715]

Thank you Pedigo for sponsoring this ad.

[@RobertBeriault753]

This review might dispel any suggestion that I'm associated with that company: kzbin.info/www/bejne/il7UmXSnhp2kiZY

[@tapmoron]

Your arguments may be valid for your condition, for me the Bosch active line plus is almost perfect. According to the controler stats i m providing 70% of the power and the engine 30% and this give me close to 200 km of range. I like the smooth assitance and I consider throttle to be dangerous and as you said in Eu a speed bike or a bike with a throttle need to be immatriculated, and the driver must wear a special helmet (indeed such bike are considered as low power scooters). I was like you over 70 i would probably agree but i m just 54. Last i disagree about rear versus central motor, central motor are way more efficient and smooth. On top if you get a puncture or want to play with the transmission it is a mess.

[@lovemadeinjapan]

If you are sporty, you hit the upper limit all the time, and then you go fast from 20-30% motor support to 0%, and that all happens below the max legal speed. Very cumbersome. I want 20% support at 25 km/h. Not 0. It basically rides smooth till 22,5-23. Beyond that, it feels like you tow a chunck of concrete.

[@RobertBeriault753]

An ebike is like a sailboat. Every design has its advantages and disadvantages and they all depend on the tastes and needs of the owner.

[@erikmalmberg7319]

I have EMTB with Bosch peformence line Plus its great bike i commute to work both summer and winter one the best investemt i made

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you made the right choice for yourself.

[@fletcher3913]

Good report, Robert. I'm riding a tricycle, I don't trust my balance anymore. But I would not have an e-bike the did not have a throttle.

[@yoso585]

fletcher3913 Yes, a smart man accepts his limits but continues to ride. A stubborn man gets busted up.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yoso You can carry more beer on a trike as well!

[@RobertBeriault753]

I never tried a trike. As soon as the snow is gone, I'll be taking a trip to The Bicycle Man in Alfred Station, N.Y. to try one.

[@leapnlarry]

I make a lot of RV travel videos on another channel, this video was very well thought out and produced. I am researching a ebike for my wife, she is not a great cyclist and i want to make sure she is safe when riding. It also cannot complex as she will not ride the bike if switching gears is complex. You are making a really good case for hub drives, which is contrary to most youtube videos. Are they trying to sell more mid drives because they are more expensive? Thanks very much for making this video, there are not many videos out there made from an end user instead of a bike shop or bike manufacturer. You cant trust the bike review channels because they are biased to bike companies because the get the bikes free and are sometimes paid for the review. I will make sure we also make a video about our ebike experience. Larry

[@RobertBeriault753]

One thing I don't think I mentioned in this video is that with a mid drive, since the motor benefits from proper gear selection, you are always changing gears. It is made for people who don't mind having to change gears. On the other hand, a hub motor performs just as well, regardless of which gear you choose. Another thing that your wife might consider is an ebike with only one gear on the rear sprocket, so she never would have to change gears.

[@ronetteJenkins_daJenkinsfamily]

Im so empress that at your age, you can still do more like riding a bicycle, well done & keep it up 👍

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you!

[@wilsonsothernames]

Good to know about what the torque sensor affect does to a ride. Tong Sheng mid drives have the same feature. Good for those that dont like the sensation of a motor , Not good for those that want more help from the motor

[@RobertBeriault753]

Exactly!

[@MindBodySoulOk]

Oh yeah, if I have to have a dealer reset my system, that's a deal killer.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Can't blame you.

[@lovemadeinjapan]

First find a dealer that will take my bike in uberhaupt. I've a e-cargo bike, and they all say no to it. You can only buy them online, they simply drop them at your door with a truck, and from that moment: good luck! So that is a huge pain. Really hope someone will develop a custom motor management PCB with custom controller panel for Bosch motors with open source software. The motor itselfs feels pretty solid.

[@xxnotmuchxx]

Interesting perspective. Which ebike or ebike kiy u recommend? I want to know which ebike kit is good and not made in china.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'm not familiar with do it yourself kits. But I've been studying this lately because my next ebike might be one I will assemble from a kit. I would advise you to go to this website: www.ebikes.ca. The website is chock full of useful information and video clips on the subject.

[@xxnotmuchxx]

@@RobertBeriault753 i will look. I was wondering how fast those kits are. My ebike is 1000w and max speed is 30 mph. I usually go 20 or 25 but it is good to have that accelaration.

[@RobertBeriault753]

There seems to be no upper limit.

[@oquefizhoje]

Bosch motors are intelligent. I have a MTB with Bosch active line pro and i am very pleasant. Bosch controls everything: motor, charger, battery and controller (in my case Purion) and i like it that way, cause only Bosch is allowed to repair or maintenance all this eletric equipment. In my perspective, Bosch nail it, and manufacture high quality equipment for ebikes. Dont forget that the aiming is a PEDAL ASSIST system to help cyclists not to replace them. I don't understand why you choose a Bosch system. Did you try before you buy? Did you google about PEDAL ASSIST system? Why you bought a PEDAL assist when you need is a full eletric motorbike? I think you are comparing a Bosch ebike system with something that is not to compare.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Of course, the Bosch system has a lot to offer. The choice of an ebike all depends on a person's tastes and needs. My needs are very specific and rather uncommon and are evolving with time. Thanks for your input.

[@rudycolludi2242]

I'm 70 and have a Cube bike equipped with the Bosch motor. After about 600 km only the resin brake pads have completely worn out due to my descending on big hills where I live. Nothing else has gone wrong. It is now possible to buy fat tire electric bikes with throttles in Europe.

[@a-aron2276]

600km on one set of pads is excellent 👍🏼 do definitely change them as soon as you can before they start rubbing the disc or they'll gather dirt and grease in the divit caused from metal on metal.

[@RobertBeriault753]

That's an unusually short lifespan. I can't imagine having to change brake pads every 600 km. I have more than 7000 km on my brake pads and they are only about half worn out. But I don't live in a mountainous region.

[@a-aron2276]

@@RobertBeriault753 i live in a very hilly city and I'd barely get that, depends on the quality of the pads of course and how efficient you are at coasting to lights and all the rest of it but on my worst pads i was only getting about the same, maybe this guy's issue is the pistons not pushing evenly on the disc, i had to shorten my rear caliper mount as I wasn't making full contact with entire surface and it led to me changing my pads every month (

[@gatormack221]

I have hub drive and mid-drive and enjoy them both but my mid drive puts out 85 newton meters of torque the Bosch performance CX.. you simply picked a mid drive without enough beans

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think I would have been much happier with it if I had chosen the CX.

[@n.e.u.7578]

very interesting, thank you for sharing your knowledge :) much appreciated

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad it was helpful!

[@kenlowey1]

Here in the UK, throttle is against the law, 15.5 mph and peddle assist only by law, mind you some people de-restrict their bikes but if in an accident the law comes down heavy, plus if you have insurance they wont pay out

[@RobertBeriault753]

I guess I'm lucky to live on the other side of the pond.

[@BradWieland]

Hi Robert. I just discovered your channel; very interesting! Do you know if some bikes feature a removable battery that can be charged while disconnected from the bike? In some cases, I wouldn't be able to take a bike indoors to charge, as at a hotel for instance.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Actually, the batteries are removable on the majority of ebikes. Both my Bosch and Pedego are removable.

[@HeathenRides]

I have a Turbo levo and a cube reaction performance 500 both have integrated battery and both can be taken out..even They are inside the downtube ,,one has a Bosch power tube that's on the cube and it's a key to use when taking it out after first taking off the cover. The specialized is slided up inside from the bottom bracket area besides the motor which is really good solution because it's really trucking long so when I lock the bike so it can't be lifted it's not possible to take out the battery.. anyways I never heard about a bike that the battery can't be taken off.. anyways get a midrive the best motors at the moment is ep8 and e8000 from Shimano i really whish my specialized Turbo levo had one of those instead of the brose even the brose feels best are strongest and most silence and can be customized in all kinds of ways from the cellphone app.. like how long it will keep going after you stop pedaling (shuttle) in the right settings you barely needs to touch the pedals to make it go and you don't need to pedal every round just every third round you need to follow the pedals like resting your feet on them..i love them when they work the problem is the belts keeps snapping ..i really hope they fix that problem because you can get many cheap good bike's with the same brose motor.. but before it's fixed go for one of the newest Shimano motors..also if you have a mid drive with internal battery it's easy to install a motorized front wheel on to if you wants it to drive on both wheel's which is good when it's really really steep (remember to take the seat all the way down when climbing very steep technical trail's in full power or it's hard to keep the front wheel down.. good luck with your ebike shopping

[@pharrohku5922]

Well maybe you should have bought the bafang g510 middrive it has everything your looking for including throttle but except regen braking but you can solve that issue like I did and get a hub generator and respoke the front or rear wheel and use that to charge your batteries and also you can use any battery you choose with a bafang motor your NOT locked into a prosperity software to program the motor or battery discharge rate because bafang software is OPEN source and is available for free and is very easy to use.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I don't have first hand experience with FWD, but Frank at Pedal Easy mentions advantages of FWD and one of them is: "A third reason (and this one is not very commonly known, in fact I have never heard or seen anyone else talk about it) is that it enables much enhanced stability, particularly when negotiating soft or loose ground. On very soft ground the stabilizing effect of small bursts of power from the throttle is quite amazing. This stability stems from the fact that a motor- driven front wheel always “pulls” in the direction it is pointing, whereas, when driven by force from a rear wheel (as in conventional bike or rear wheel drive electric) “steering” the front wheel to maintain balance can cause it to “plow” sideways instead of rolling in the direction it is pointed. If you have experienced the difference between pushing a heavy wheelbarrow over soft ground vs pulling it, then you have experienced a similar difference (albeit stemming from a slightly different fundamental mechanism). With judicious use of the throttle a rider can literally “float” his bike over loose ground (sand, snow, mud). Not for everyone. But it sure is fun!" BTW, all caps means you are yelling! Was it your intention?

[@pharrohku5922]

@@RobertBeriault753 Well when it comes to pushing and pulling I have had both versions and I still prefer the rear wheel MID DRIVE have the power. I did one of the kits with the front wheel as the power but it did not preform as expected it seemed to slip quite easily on wet roads especially on fresh paved roads and was weird when it came to steering during when it would slip on me and in the snow it was totally USELESS I will stick to my fatbikes and stay away from the standard size tires because I do NOT have to worry about pot holes or grid slots on main drains of any kind. My 3 fatbike I have programe to the best efficient programming i could do and also working with other engineers in the community because like i said before the software is easy to use and 100% FREE 2 of my fatbike have the BBSHD and the other has the G510 the only difference between the 2 motors is the G510 has a Torque sensor as well as cadence . I have programed my BBSH fatbikes to operate like the G510 although not quite as smooth but very close using current sensing you see it all in how you program you motor to you liking this is why I would never buy a bike from a company that has proprietary software only they can use and you would have to run back and forth just to get them to tune it the way you like it but even then its no guarantee they will even do what you ask because of some stupid law or something else maybe they do not know how to or there software can not do what you want. In the end after testing so many bikes and building so many bikes over the years I will always use ONLY MID DRIVE motors they are so much more efficient and you have the full gear range just like a manual transmission in a car ( hub motors you do not have this ). Another option I can mention is go with a mid drive motor and use a IGH rear hub like i have on one of my fat bikes i ride during the winter sloppy season i do not have to worry about it getting dirty the gears are inside the rear hub ( do you remember the OLD Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub from back in the day ) Well they make them even more bullet proof in today's version because they know people are going to add a motor to them and they are great choice to external gears and derailleurs. I converted 1 of my fatbikes to the Sturmey Archer SX-RK3 170mm hub and running the BBSHD and I love it and now am thinking about converting the other 2 bikes as well but only have 1 problem. I can NOT find anyone with the IGH sturmey archer SX-RK3 hub in stock. I have had many hub drive motors as well and they all seem to be about the same they lack in power going up hills unless you have a 3K hub motor then it would be powerful enough. One thing you could do is just make it 2WD I know of a couple companys that actually make a bike that is 2WD. There are a few companys over seas that have a prototype bike with 2WD as well so it seems to be a thing now and companys are looking into it more now . Weather you have a mid drive or hub motor you can always add the second motor on the front and get the correct controller to control them and you have a 2WD bike ( YES they do make a controller that can run 2 motors simultaneously to give you much better control in all weather conditions.

[@ex0stasis72]

Lots of very valid points. But it sounds like it's more of a budget choice than an inherent issue with Bosch motors. You touched on this a bit but the more powerful Bosch motors will probably allow you to expend less energy and still reach max speed. There are ebikes with a throttle on a Bosch motor as a class 3 ebike, but you'll be paying at least $4000 USD for those. I got no other rebuttals for your other points though. Good video! I've been shopping for a Bosch ebike myself, and decided to confirm if Bosch was really right for me by seeking an anti-Bosch opinion.

[@RobertBeriault753]

It could be for some people.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Bosch are shareholder owned and therefore their main focus is to sell motors to the premium market which is the get fit crowd. Due to laws that restrict the uptake of more powerful restricted bikes it is not in their current interest to make a more powerful motor. They could easily make one. But their owners would have a shit fit. It's a shame. I mean sod all the propriety electronics crap and just make a damn good motor for us to build bikes with. Good video. Cheers

[@marsBeBelinda]

The problem that you identify has layers to it of course and places like China. Have plenty of people who would pay for the kind of motor Did you want but? They are not able to get the marketplace. To provide it because of the lack of free enterprise as we understand in genuine democracies. All our countries have has the same sickness though, which is it the people with the most money. Get the really silly money. Solutions Some of the claims in this video or not consistent with what you imply. However, I assume everybody is an agreement. The motors that Patty go for example is using are not consistent with a premium price they charge. They are of a design for extremely low cost manufacturer. There is the innovation in this to use the modern or youngster term. Space. . I understand that there is tremendous evidence that L7 drive is not. Going to be able to live up to all of its claims. However There is a shortage of innovation and I appreciate their effort. I actually believed in their argument. The argument is having a different simpler type of electrical energy storage system and then having a fancier. If arguably proprietary that is patented. Power control Electronics You can have greater efficiency. , you can have solar panels. Even panels that you use while pedaling as Illustrated with the trailer having the panel. Regenerative braking requires an on-board charger , or a bi-directional traction control or drive circus When people say the Bosch is publicly owned, I think that they are missing. The point even if that is true and their argument is not inconsistent. Boss has 1 million employees. Almost none of them are involved with bicycles. The company is against bicycles. It is very clear, but the mid Drive motor system. Even the anti-lock brake cut, and other suppose Innovations primarily serve to protect market share and Road access two monstrous vehicles That should not be legal in cities to operate alone. Or amateurly . Or even buy computer. All large vehicle should be operated remotely. From offices . . The autonomous driving skam is little understood. The speed of light is plenty fast to have the driver. Of cars Etc via highly-skilled professional working in an office like environment. Having a computer in a car doing driving. Doesn't merely Rob people of jobs they need. It introduced is markets. We have a chance to not provide protection to car makers. The Netherlands fought against the killing machines we here. I guess there are reports that bicycles have regained some Road access in the Netherlands. I do not think that the battle is joined for that. But it is very clear. The innovation in the electric bicycle Arena has been stifled. I think that it is a good model to have a trailer for a bicycle. I think that that makes the bicycle better in every way than any car. I think it allows for sufficient. Solar exposure to limit the amount of batteries that you need. For daytime operation . . There are realities however about what the bicycle format can accomplish. If one considers that a certain percentage of the car budget is fair to drop on then what you would see if you did that if you say said, okay we're going to have scale that is sufficient to have similar margins. And we are going to spend 1/3. Of what a car costs. For me you would then have a vehicle that would not be using Wheels. It would be using something vastly Superior. Something like a tank tread. Something with infinite traction. Infant attraction is helpful because you can get to maximum speed instantly if you need to and you can stop. Instantly to the extent that is safe for the passenger. You can also do things like turn 360 without moving forward or backward. Some people would say that's not a bicycle. Well, I don't think that people who like bicycles instead of sport utility vehicles are talking about having a fun this for a certain number of wheels or even just Wheels. Fondness for Wheels is understandable. But as you understand more of the physics. You understand that cars have dependency upon cheap solutions that kill so many millions. We never talk about the total Beyond a year. We wanted to say okay, so it's over a million, but it's not like 20 million. I don't know how to estimate the total number of even traumatic sudden death. From Cars we have suffered since their introduction. I do know that everybody who can afford a car. Can't afford a bicycle that is beyond imagination Superior to any car. Even if a third of the price. So this video says that boss has a first-class reputation for building bicycle Electric drivetrains. This video and its creator is one of several. I have seen saying the same thing about Bosch even. The documentation that boss provides about how the system operates is largely the problem. Some electric bike dealers have told me that people like this video maker and the other need to try riding a regular bicycle before blaming Bosch. This theory is that it's like playing the piano incorrectly people who have been using Pedego bikes. Have learn to Pedal too slowly. For many decades the theory has been to use muscle power efficiently. You have to minimize the amount of force and maximize the number of circles your feet make around the axle between the pedals. It may not be a coincidence that this is the case with electric motors. This is why you see Dyson. making the speed of their vacuum electric motors as fast as their Engineers can manage. In the early days of electric motors they were either DC or They were engineered for the frequency of the alternating current. L7 Drive may not be modern in having the frequency change depending upon the speed and torque needed. I have assumed that that is the case. However Oh, and it doesn't matter whether it is or it isn't. You want to have a computer control the electricity and you want to have a very fancy type of electric motor if you are going to have the most competitive solution. There are opportunities for cost engineering Beyond Electronics. However. Talking about liquid nitrogen turbines is beyond the scope of this reply and fortunately

[@RobertBeriault753]

You raise some very interesting points about the place of the bicycle in our society. Thanks for your input.

[@marsBeBelinda]

@@RobertBeriault753 I recommend the cover of Popular Mechanics. Well, at least a print edition that featured. Battery . . The interesting thing about that battery was that it was impossible to obtain. The man that got it into Popular Mechanics was quoted as saying this is the standard battery and no problem ordering it. He had his quote published in Popular Mechanics. He had said that. And he knew it was false. At the time his blog was noting how he was so upset that he could ride around campus on this little vehicle at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He had built around that battery. Is Graduate Studies wear an electronic motor control? Most people don't understand what it means to be a graduate student in such a field. It means that you continue to live on a student budget. After rejecting numerous job offers well into six figures or say to adjust for inflation half a million or over $1000000 a year. When I was going to college. My best friend who was a bit older than me graduated with a master's in physics. He was offered. Partnership by startup corporations He instead went to John Hopkins and got his PhD. He was able to get paid. A high salary And attend school basically full-time. I spoke to him relatively recently. He was in his study. He had married a professional and possibly lost his virginity to her. He had not changed since we had lost touch during our University years. He answered my questions, honestly. I shared how I also had a child. In a way, we remain best friends, perhaps. But the kind of friends that you read about in grade school in books about crossing a river and the not seeing somebody for a century or so. The next time we speak. I hope that we are more on the same page. I hope he can look back critically at the decision. He made to be safe. The era of the best and brightest devoting their lives to improving upon bicycles can return. Currently most bicycle dealers are the problem. They have sold out. They will resist electric bicycles or embrace them. Baby come from the ranks of building frames out of exotic materials, or they may be even more. Of the loser sort. . I recommend the comments of Karl Brown in the New York Times coverage of the specialized bicycle. Since he got his comment published as the closing comment the ad engine of the New York Times was hacked or part of me that, engine was turned into an ad engine by somebody else getting the last word with a link to a Chinese or without her Evike store. Electric bicycles have customers like you who are willing to pay for quality. Customers like you who I've been betrayed by a car maker. Escaping The Wrath of the Enterprise that takes a significant amount of all the nations GNP in the first world at least is not trivial. You are a great man, sir, and I am lucky to have time to talk to you and discuss these matters. I love the work that you are doing and the pride that you take and doing it with craftsmanship and skill. Some can reflexively respond to your responses. Writing them off as reflexes themselves. I do not argue that. You have an open mind. You are sticking with your story because it is factual. I just watched in reverse order a number of scenes from the young actor in Breaking Bad. I want to add the channel at some point. Until then you are protected from spoiling this made for pay cable television. Show in America. I watch the sequence of scenes knowing that I had missed out on the final years and would be spoiling it for myself. Google recommended it. Or it was recommended on Reddit. The scene is consistent with the Reddit reference. And I believe it was the second video that played after accidentally skipped the actual reference video. Reddit is an app that has its own browser selected. It does not open KZbin in the KZbin app. There is a man that is asked for an apology from the solar Channel. Featuring a self-made man. He has commented about his electric unicycle recently. I am pleased that the latest electronic unicycle. To be test driven and available for everybody in a few weeks. Has as an option a relatively small battery. These things are called Wheels. That is you refer to your in the singular wheel. We have not yet seen a quote wheel on for sharing business model. The wheel is too easy to steal perhaps but that isn't actually true. What enables the wheel to be shared is changing the drivetrain so that all it is is manufactured metal. Having Mobility tools be shared is key to having them be more disruptive. The cost capitalized is the infrastructure to support their shares Mobility. For example having the drones that go around refueling the wheels with the liquefied air. Liquifying all the gases in air is kind of a no-brainer. It turns out because the oxygen condenses before the nitrogen I think. You bite another words provides the helmet with it's hygienic disposable liner. But people bring their own cannula. When you have such a Enterprise model, you can go to New Delhi. You can get the government to make a deal with you that you will drop. Two or three billion dollars of infrastructure on the city and they get rid of all of the other vehicles. I am making an argument here and not endorsing having a quota of a single-vehicle per person. For a few billion dollars you can have an ensemble of mica Mobility tools and the infrastructure. Property values in New Delhi which triple overnight if you stop dumping pollution into the air. Do so at the expense of incumbent Industries. It's the opposite of drilling for oil on the bottom of the deep ocean. You don't need insurance. But you are still prevented from doing this. The Michael Bloomberg's of the world argue that the Bernie Sanders can't do much. however, Donald Trump and Michael Bloomberg have some money or plenty of money to create proper Society examples. The rest of us having had our Capital stolen Are able to be role models? It is a big deal that you have not opted or your son is done opted to not show you comments like mine. Basically all other channels on KZbin right now have the content creator being denied access my design to feedback that they most need. The class action against KZbin for mandating censorship that prevents the people from conferring and speaking freely and overcoming is more than ripe. Maybe in the past the United States of America could could could have created such a small such a Public Square such an anti Twitter dumb. The speech recognition has be given options to do as I've done in the prior sentence to use two words instead of TwitterDOM.

[@bjorn2fly]

In europe its a different story, the limit is 250w, and no throttles allowed. The mid drive is the way to go.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Because of vast distances our l aws allow more power and a higher max speed. As for mid drives vs wheel hub, each has iits advantages an drawbacks. I might do a video about the differences. Thanks for your interest.

[@arevee9429]

I had "reason 2" happen to me this weekend and because I am no longer in the state where I purchased the bike, I cannot bring it back to the dealer for a free reflash. The couple of places I contacted about it wanted between 22 to 40 dollars to reflash the computer. Bosch should not charge to "update" faulty software. This was an extremely expensive bike - even by eBike standards, so I'm not pleased. Flashing firmware isn't rocket science and the user should be able to do it at home.

[@RobertBeriault753]

You bring up an important point: Why doesn't Bosch provide us with a way to connect our bike to the Internet to get updates or whatever it needs to get it working?

[@RobertBeriault753]

Better still, why is the software not permanent?

[@xizarbaks7382]

I am agree. Some thinks if motor takes any uphill he doesn’t think that kills motor and the Bosch ebike systems the most expensive ( everybody must learn to use gears ⚙️ correctly before he starts killing his expensive motor.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Gears. The Bosch is not mad for those who don't like changing gears. One thing I found, and I don't remember if I mention it in the video, is that the Bosch system makes me work harder than I would like. Thanks for your interest.

[@xizarbaks7382]

@@RobertBeriault753 thanks for your answer. sorry if i did mistakes. i think you understood me. my friend have one with bosch and he says it doesn't qork correctly and i didn' see it yet but i already think he killed motor.

[@richrdlewis6278]

Very informative, thanks.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad it was helpful!

[@markusdecimus4732]

Front wheel is the best. U have a bike 2x2 and easy service. Plus u dont destroy your gears and chain.

[@RobertBeriault753]

I think that makes a lot of sense. Intuitively, one might think that being "pulled" by the front wheel would be unbalancing, but according to Justin Lemire of Grin Technologies, there's no difference in the feel of a bike whether front or rear wheel drive. FWD is a nice advantage when you need to repair a flat on the drive wheel. Thanks for your input

[@James-hh1lq]

The new bosch gen 4 motor is so much better than any motor on the market

[@RobertBeriault753]

It's a good motor.

[@ebeanakskov]

I did think about, why you did choose a Bicycle, with that type of Bosch motor, when you knew you have to pull a heavy load. You should have choosen the cargo line, from Bosch. It has been a much better choice for you! You seems to go in deept with analyzing of such things! And further more, you could get the option with "floating" gear shift, which should help you in start moments!

[@RobertBeriault753]

The reason I chose this bike is that I didn't do my homework. I trusted the recommendation of the store owner, with whom I had a good relationship and he knew what I needed the bike for. Moral of the story: don't listen to others. Practice due diligence when you're making a big investment. That was four years ago. Now I'm a little more knowledgeable and hopefully a little wiser. I believe the cargo line didn't exist then. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[@ebeanakskov]

@@RobertBeriault753 You'r right in the moral of this with the Dealers ;-) They normally do whats best for them, and not the best for you. The CX motor series came on the market in 2016. I hope you will get many good rides, whatever you choose in the future. Today I will get my second e-bike (with Bosch motor)!

[@joserego9210]

Sorry Bud, I purchased a Bosh than I found out it had no hand throttle. Big mistake being my first Ebike. Now stocked with the stupid thing.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Ouch! That's a bummer. All you can do, is always ride it on Turbo.

[@awertj1]

Great insights! 😃👍

[@RobertBeriault753]

Glad you think so!

[@robroe6382]

buy a stereo hybrid cube with bosch , and be amazed ... what you have there are antiquities

[@RobertBeriault753]

To each his own, as they say.

[@mrofnocnon]

Why? How many have you bought?

[@RobertBeriault753]

I made the mistake of depending on the advice of the store owner instead of taking my time and doing my homework. Lesson: DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

[@mrofnocnon]

@@RobertBeriault753 thanks

[@TheManShaker]

Bought 2 replacement batterys from my friend (self made 750wh ones) just to discover that Bosch is worse than apple in restricting stuff. Never again

[@RobertBeriault753]

It's not made for people who like innovating.

[@ataksnajpera]

That's why I prefer Brose motors instead of walled garden from Bosh.

[@TheManShaker]

@@ataksnajpera i went with Bafang in the end. I do recommend them

[@ataksnajpera]

@@TheManShaker chinese junk? No thanks. I prefer german enginering.

[@peterwong1778]

@@TheManShaker chinese product will explode except bomb🤣

[@FurkanOz480]

Your wind thing is quite true i have active line in europe , new is 3500 but its actual garbage even cheapest bafang is like 3x better . Quite frankly i wouldnt trust those to always have it charged in night but bosch i do trust tho . I saw myself enjoying a scooter more i got a segway p65 realy nice no thought

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for your input.

[@hvt8147]

I will never quit cycling. Too many different ebikes to own. 😉

[@RobertBeriault753]

It's nice to have choice. Thanks for your interest

[@geraldhenrickson7472]

They are amazing. So many choices.

[@KamleshMallick]

I agree. A throttle is useful in following scenarios a) Riding in Start & stop traffic. b) When your chain comes off c) When you are chased by dogs! d) When u want to lift your legs in a puddle!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Wouldn't buy a bike that doesn't have one (unless I live in Europe and I don't have the choice)

[@super_best_clips_xoxo]

Sounds to me, what you really need is an e-bike with no pedals and with a throttle. Regen braking is pretty ineffective and not very practical. You would get max 5% more range, and when you calculate the extra weight, it is not feasible. Also its not good for the battery (shorter life span) and it generates a lot of heat. Regen braking is not gonna be a common thing on e-bikes anytime soon thats for sure.

[@RobertBeriault753]

The points you raise are quite valid. But I have something in mind. I'll be working on it this summer. Keep an eye on my channel if you are interested in counter arguments. Thanks for your comment.

[@EA-58]

I love my Bosch, and i have neuropathy on both legs. But i'm in Holland and everythng is pretty flat 🙂

[@RobertBeriault753]

Congratulations on not letting neuropathy prevent you from enjoying your ebike.

[@jeremymcpherson9405]

I have a 6 ebikes. 3 are Bosch, 2 are Chinese hub drives, and one is a Shimano. Bosch bikes are similar to Brose or Shimano motor equipped bikes. Chinese bikes are cheap and versatile, but you have trade offs of no warranty, poor QC, lack of support, and so on. I would personally disagree with most of the reasons given but I prefer to only use the motor for what I need and not the other way around. I would also say that hub drive motors have garbage torque. Generally I have found them severely lacking in the hill climbing department. My father in law has a 1000 watt Chinese bike that is pretty fast with enough torque. I would say that is the minimum watts for throttle riding.

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[@warchildalex]

Nice video. I hope that if i reach your age i can still pedal.my bike like you. I had a bosh cx performance gen3 and it broke în the middle of the trail în the forest. Was bot fun at all, we have bears în the area and it was getting dark :).

[@RobertBeriault753]

Outch! Sounds a little dicey!

[@williamzachary3838]

Thank you for the informative video. I am in the market for an eBike, not to replace my 29er all-mountain bike, but to complement it. I am still leaning toward a Bosch CX powered mountain bike because I can use it for commuting and for doubling or tripling my time on the gnar, but I may reconsider a Pedego hub drive for the reasons you mentioned. Too many choices!

[@RobertBeriault753]

The two bikes you are considering are very different. Ideally, you should ride each one for a few hours to get a feel for them.

[@sgas]

Really great video, you know what youre talking about

[@RobertBeriault753]

I'm no expert. I was just going by my own experience and by what I have learned from others. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@Emtbtoday]

Massive changes have been made to Bosch systems recently. I wouldn't buy anything else now! The 85Nm torque performance CX Gen 4 on the smart system is incredible. Everything can be adjusted in the app now, including speed, torque, and over-the-air updates and fixes. The new smart system and app are a pleasure to use. It's so user-friendly now with the Kiox 300 and 500 displays, and paired with the new Purion 200, it's a game-changer! You can also set an overrun if you need it, and it can be fully adjusted to the level you need. The new, simple walk-assist mode is a one-button push compared to the older, more complicated system. You definitely made the wrong choice with the low-torque motor and non-smart system. I highly recommend the new system. I won't touch anything else now, as they've pretty much perfected it. The new update in February 2024 made it even better!

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thanks for the update on the Bosch system. Sounds like a great choice for someone who trusts electronic gadgets and chooses to do without a throttle.

[@BerserKlegacy]

Nice video

[@RobertBeriault753]

Thank you.

[@R.I.A]

I live in Amsterdam to maintain a bike here in Amsterdam is more expensive than to maintain a car

[@RobertBeriault753]

That's really surprising, given that the Netherlands is probably the world's most bicycle friendly country!

[@lovemadeinjapan]

@@RobertBeriault753 Nobody learns the job of cycle repair any longer. And if they are truly good at mechanics here in Eindhoven, they get a double paying contract at ASML. Car repair is mostly plug-and-play module replacement nowadays, where the tight controlled supply chain of parts is the limiting factor, not craftmanship. I agree cycle repair is either DIY, or walk into the forest and see what happens (you probably get stung by mosquitos). And Bosch sucks when it comes to caring for DIY repairs.