#13 | Why a Former Atheist Found Protestantism Unconvincing (Interview: Dr. Alan Fimister)

[@BryceCarmony]

Can't wait to watch! I too was atheist turned Catholic

[@leoXIV14]

Same

[@glotree]

Brilliant interview. Raised my thinking to an entirely new level. I’m going to be chewing on this for a while, for certain, and I plan to watch it a few more times until I feel I have a good grasp of the arguments you two present. Incidentally, the only time that the interruptions on your part bothered me was during the story of his conversion - I struggled not to lose the thread of the story over the many interruptions and subsequent rabbit trails. However, the interruptions during the second half of the interview I didn’t even notice. They just felt like the natural back and forth of a conversation between friends. Hope that’s helpful.

[@Messy_MayC]

Wonderful conversation, thank you! Looking forward to hearing more discussions like this with you and Alan. May God continue to bless you both!

[@kahnlives]

Dr Fimister is always entertaining to watch, hope, he comes back soon🫡

[@fallentoa]

Thank you for putting this interview on for everyone to hear and enjoy. I hope you get him back again as I'm quite intrigued to hear more of his story and of cause the British sense of humour being a brit too lol. His story has many levels so you will both be really busy lol. Thanks once again I wait for the next edition. I'm also struggling to see how the three in one argument, I'm glad I'm not alone in this lol. By the way I'm only starting to read the bible and not a Christian yet.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Why we are where we are? Protestant errors and Catholic sins. As a Catholic, I 100% agree. Where I struggle is, where does culpability lie for the descendants of Protestants who were born after the Deformation fathers died, and never returned back to the Church.

[@BensWorkshop]

Praying the sorrowful mysteries makes me sorrowful of my sins.

[@DanDeuel]

@1:03:40 FYI: Latin roots---> Centrifugal = "flee from center"; Centripetal = "seek the center" Great interview!

[@BensWorkshop]

What an amazing episode! I have ordered his book. I look forward to the next time you have him on. That said, I ill also re watch this episode.

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video..Insightful. 🙏

[@carolynschuster291]

"Protestant errors, Catholic sin"... yes.

[@jackhohne6163]

Great interview!

[@RitaGatton]

Joshua, I am just expressing a thought that just came into my mind. If Nestorianism is the belief that Our Lord had two natures, isn't this what Protestants are stating when the believe that Our Lady is not the Mother of God? If He had two natures in one divine person, then she would be both His Mother as a man and also the Mother of God. Then, Protestants would be subscribing to a heresy that you said the Church rejected in the fourth century.

[@truthnotlies]

Yes, some of them do do this. However, other Protestants acknowledge her as Mother of God, although are sometimes uncomfortable saying it I have found.

[@b.r.holmes6365]

If you told a Lutheran that they don't believe Mary is the Mother of God, they would laugh.

[@regulator062]

Nestorianism is specifically the heresy that Jesus is two persons, God and Man, not two natures. Catholics believe Jesus has two natures, God and Man, two wills, human and Divine, but is only one person, Jesus Christ. Since Mary gave birth to a person, Jesus, as every mother gives birth to a person they are called the mother of that person, even though they don't create the immortal soul. The same logic applies to Mary, the Mother of God.

[@RitaGatton]

@@regulator062 Thank you very much!

[@RitaGatton]

@@b.r.holmes6365 Good for the Lutherans!

[@BensWorkshop]

Oddly the angle of confusion in the non Catholic world is something I am going to get to on my new channel. I have ordered "The Iron Sceptre of the Son of Man". I though a starting with The Davidic Kingdom (As Jesus is the final and eternal King of David's line). From this you can easily get both Pope and Our Blessed Mother as Queen of Heaven.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

I've always used that line or argument for teaching that the Blessed Mother is the Queen of Heaven. But now that you mention it, it is OBVIOUSLY one way to show the Pope is the permanent Eliakim, until of course the return of Jesus.

[@BensWorkshop]

@@alisterrebelo9013 Yes, but what I am going to do first is establish (from the OT) who Jesus is and from that, that his Kingdom is a Davidic Kingdom. It stems from a long running argument on KZbin comments on in this case the Papacy which resulted in him saying something like "So you are saying the Kingdom is a Davidic Kingdom?" To which I said yes. And he stopped arguing. I think it is a fruitful way to lead people gently to the Truth.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@BensWorkshop It ABSOLUTELY boggles my mind that things that were patently obvious such as Jesus being a Davidic King and therefore His kingdom is Davidic are now being denied by Protestants/Evangelicals because of the equally obvious conclusions they dislike. Almost as if their theology is being guided the false epistemology that any teaching of the Catholic Church is wrong.

[@BensWorkshop]

@@alisterrebelo9013 He didn't deny it. I didn't even tell him directly. He just worked out that was the inference of what I was saying and when I said yes he seemed have a penny drop moment and went away to think. I have not seen him since.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@BensWorkshop My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that yourparticular interlocutor denied it, but that he won't be the only one contemplating that particular decision, and surely some have made the jump to deny it already. Hopefully that penny drop moment planted a seed that turns out to bear fruit.

[@vinciblegaming6817]

39:08 ha ha... That's so true about Anglicans... The thing is, they handle the Bread and Wine as if transubstantiation is true, minus adoration... So yeah, you are actually free to be a transubstantiationist in anglicanism without being scandalized. They even return the remnants to the church grounds just like the catholics do.

[@larsky1346]

If you do have Dr. Fimister back on, could you ask him about how a novice might enter the study of history? There are so many works of propaganda, it's very hard for me to find a trusted source (in English) to get my grounding for Catholic history. I'd like to know a good way to find good trustworthy sources.

[@Doug8521]

You could use Philip Hughes A history of the Catholic Church and also the church in crisis which talks about ecumenical councils until Vatican I. I took Dr Fimister class for modern church history at holy apostles last summer

[@larsky1346]

@@Doug8521 Thank you!

[@David-nl8pw]

I think the Pope that had the Ceiling collapse on him was Pope John XXI rather than the XXth. I could be wrong but it sounded like Dr Fimister accidently said the XXth.

[@rockysmitt]

It's my view that the most difficult problem for Christian faith is not the problem of evil, as is often claimed, but the problem of "inconsistent revelations". It's very difficult to see how, if Jesus really did found one true church, why there are now so many different denominations all contradicting each other. My view is that Protestantism isn't really an alternative take on Christianity, or an attempt at a restoration of Christianity to an earlier orthodoxy. Rather, it's in effect a collection of new religions, that shed Catholic doctrine to varying degrees, to move in the direction of an atheistic, secular world view. The many Protestant denominations, are nothing more than many points along the spectrum from full, sacramental Christianity, to full secular humanism (perhaps informed by Judeo-Christian values). Of course, few Protestants would admit that directly, but history marches on without the individual needing to understand his place in it. In truth, we're witnessing nothing more or less than the end of Christianity and the slow burn of classical Western civilization. An evangelical friend asked me to watch a service by a very anti-Catholic Protestant pastor (on the very misguided theory that I would find this pastor persuasive). The pastor ridiculed Catholic beliefs and practices several times. It sounded very much like how atheists ridicule all Christian beliefs, only the pastor ridiculed only those parts of Christianity that weren't in his denomination. I think the endless debates and in fighting between Catholics and the many Protestant denominations, are just a distraction with little substance. Protestantism brought, at best, vaguely interesting theological variations, most of which are incoherent, or not even fully worked out. It's a colossal waste of people's time and intellectual energy to engage in these. Nobody's going to "win". It's not in any individual person's or individual church's power to "put the genie back in the bottle". Getting Christians to agree on doctrine is like herding cats. The fact that the Protestant "Reformation" took place at all, is itself a refutation of Christianity. It was the beginning of the unraveling of all Christianity, and ultimately western civilization. Nothing will turn back the tide. History will simply march forward, leaving Christianity in its wake.

[@MicahGlasser]

Great interview, but you interrupted too much.

[@joshuatcharles]

Thank you. It’s a discussion between friends, and sometimes I know certain things (like technical words or historical allusions) need to be clarified for much of the audience. Alan understands. But I am definitely trying to keep it to a minimum, so will bear this in mind even more so.

[@rich1147]

@@joshuatcharles You are very gracious Joshua, hard to find a man who takes criticism as well. Doing a fantastic job for the kingdom, we are grateful.

[@carolynschuster291]

​@@rich1147def an inspiration for me

[@peters9744]

All your work is fantastic. Great guest. Great conversation. But it is good you are keeping that thought ahead of you. It applies to all who wish do the best interview. Terrible when the interviewee is knocked off their train of thought. 👏

[@joshuatcharles]

@@peters9744Yes. Delicate balancing act. A good interviewer sometimes pushes the interviewee into a better direction that is better for the audience. The interviewee is always free to push back if they want. But yes, a good balance to always keep in mind!

[@macbride33]

Who is the literary scholar mentioned around 14-15 minutes ??

[@konslenz7959]

Terry Eagleton

[@codynunez5246]

Joshua, may I respectfully suggest growing your beard out. Not a long orthodox beard but stop shaving your cheeks down to a chin strap. It can give the illusion that one's cheeks look puffier than they are even for the most leanest of persons. I can tell you have a good beard. Let it grow.

[@joshuatcharles]

Funny you mention this Cody, because I have been growing it out at the suggestion of some friends. I used to have it very long (almost a foot) when I visited a monastery in 2020. Not sure I’ll have it cover my cheeks, but we’ll see.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

Excerpts from Our Lord's 10/28/2006 message (in God speaks will you listen): "God is not the author of confusion. I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Me. No one enters Heaven without embracing All My Truth. There will be no schisms or fighting in Heaven. Everyone in Heaven knows the Truth. Do you realize one of the worst events in the history of the world was the protestant reformation? For it caused division in My Church. The author of confusion, Satan, spread doubts in My priests, like Martin Luther, who let Satan water his doubts, weeds grew, and confusion and schism came in My Church. This was not My will. How much truth do you want? 100%, 50% or 25%? Anything less than 100% of My Truth will cause confusion. There is only One Source of Truth, the Holy Trinity, and anything else comes from Satan."

[@patrickbarnes9874]

That's wonderful. Let me share another excerpt with you from 11/21/1964 in Lumen Gentium 16: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” So according to the Catholic Church the Holy Trinity is the only one source of truth and no one enters Heaven without embracing all of that truth. Also, according to the Catholic Church, Muslims, who expressly deny the Holy Trinity as a core tenet of their religion, are included in the plan of salvation.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

@@patrickbarnes9874 God wills that everyone comes to the knowledge of Truth and be saved (1 Tim 2:4). But not everyone will do that, for Our Lord said, "Many are called, but Few are chosen (Matt20:16, 22:14). "Not everyone ..... I never knew you. Depart from Me, you evil doers (Matt 7:21-23)." "I know My sheep in My Only Fold ( John 10:3, 14, 16, 27) , and I give them the eternal Life (John 10:28)." His Only Fold is His Only Church instituted on the Apostles (Matt 16:18-19) and sent to all nations to teach people to OBSERVE ALL HE COMMANDED for their salvation until the End of the World (Matt 28:19-20), saying "Whoever believes you and be baptized will be saved, and whoever does not believe you will be condemned (Mark 16:16)." There is no contradiction in the Bible. Whoever rejects the teachings of Our Lord's One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church rejects Our Lord (Luke 10:16), who is the Head of His Church which is His Body and Bride, whom He saves (Eph 5:23), and rejects his salvation on his own free will. 'Outside of the Church, No Salvation' is a Catholic Dogma (Catechism #846). All other churches and religions are made by men, under the influence of Satan, to confuse and deceive souls and lead them away from the True Faith. May God open your eyes, grant you understanding, and lead you to His Only Fold for salvation. Amen !

[@BensWorkshop]

Lewes is in East Sussex no East Anglia.

[@b.r.holmes6365]

If Protestantism is a gateway to secularism, why is Ireland an overwhelmingly secular country now?

[@Doug8521]

Multiple factors, but mainly the bad use of free will by Catholics. What was explained to me once is that those countries who became Protestants first were the first to adopt the secular trends. It seems that everyone else followed

[@ronanmc68]

Because the Irish became cafeteria Catholics from the 1970s onwards, it's a small leap from that to secularism

[@joshuatcharles]

As I said at the beginning, we are where we are because of “Protestant Errors and Catholic Sins.” Many Catholics today (and for a while) act like protestants. The temptations of protestantism are for independence from the Church, which many Catholics have fallen into for millennia. Being Catholic is no guarantee you will remain faithful (that’s entirely contrary to Catholic belief). Ireland has fallen because it has abandoned Catholic belief in favor of a form of religious indifferentism that in fact was primarily fostered worldwide by protestantism.

[@PioestPius]

A simple answer would be, that it is just like every other former Catholic country, they decided to listen and act like Satan, instead of listening and acting like God. Because of this desire they have they have fallen away from the Church and her teachings. It is the love of the spirit of satan that moves a man to do such things.

[@b.r.holmes6365]

@@ronanmc68 ok, but they were still Catholics.

[@deborahjabara2614]

What has PF taught ex Cathedra, which Catholics are bound to believe?

[@chrisloftson6705]

Pope Francis specifically? He has done nothing ex cathedra. Everything from him has been ordinary teaching. We should respectfully listen to his teaching but he has not invoked infallibility.

[@ungas024]

None. Only two ex-Cathedra statements have been made for two thousand years: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

[@donhaddix3770]

and many catholic have turned to the biblical Christ.

[@S62r]

Most of the pro Catholic arguments also bolster the LDS position as well

[@joshuatcharles]

They don’t, because the LDS have no historic connection with the first century.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

LDS need history to demonstrate the resurrection of Jesus to atheists. They then discard history to claim the Church apostatised from Jesus. They then re-adopt history to claim that Joseph's experiences are true. Alternatively they appeal to a highly subjective "burning in the bosom" approach, while denying the burning in the bosom sensation of other people. Highly inconsistent, incoherent and illogical belief system.

[@gk3292]

@@joshuatcharles…spot on brother!!🎯

[@rockysmitt]

@@alisterrebelo9013 I've lived most of my life in an area with a high proportion of LDS. Your analysis all spot on. Like all recent radical departures from traditional Christianity, the LDS church is an outgrowth of Protestantism, not Catholicism. The usual process, which I think this discussion is really highlighting, is that Protestants take away large parts of Catholicism, arguing that they find them hard to believe or accept. Then they rediscover the problems that result from having a partial faith, so they become restless, in effect looking for some way to repair the loss. They either flee to atheism, or they start adding back, but in an unfounded and heretical way, like the Mormons did. I would describe the LDS church as a form of late stage Protestantism, or hyper-Protestantism. I've known countless Mormons who've left the LDS church. They usually either go to atheism or to Catholicism. Those that go to atheism, often drift for a long time feeling spiritually lost. Many go through a phase where they are quite belligerent against all religion. And some of these eventually calm down and become Catholic. The rest cling to political Leftism and Wokism as a sort of religion substitute.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@rockysmitt Talking with a kindred spirit of sorts. I had about 8 different missionary lads visit me in 2023-2024. That experience caused me to take a huge dive in LDS apologetics and come to realise many of the things you've said. They left me alone after a while because when they started giving me their bosom burning experiences, I listened patiently and gave them my own testimony, which blows theirs out of the water because by the power of the Holy Spirit, I needed a massive wake up call as an atheist on my death bed. Then they got hit with all the logical questioning, from the CES letter. I tried hanging around channels that promoted people leaving LDS but those places are demon filled atheist generation spaces. I'd get muted and silenced for trying to rescue those LDS considering becoming atheists.

[@SaltyPalamite]

Fimister's arguments against Orthodoxy are shallow and nonsensical.

[@joshuatcharles]

Well, we barely got into it because that was not the topic of this interview. I don’t think they are. He’s correct that there is nothing like the Pentarchy in Scripture. There is St. Peter, however.

[@kahnlives]

Spoken like a true ortho bro!😂

[@patrickbarnes9874]

@@joshuatcharles "He’s correct that there is nothing like the Pentarchy in Scripture." Wrong. Acts shows the apostles meeting in council to vote on what the church's doctrine would be regarding Judaizers. The Pentarchy is the bishops of sees established by those same apostles deciding via council votes on what the church's doctrine will be. "There is St. Peter, however." Wrong. The same passages in Acts show that St Peter had no special authority. The council was overseen by James, not Peter, and was decided by the apostles in favor of St Paul's rejection of the Judaizers and not St Peter's communing with them. An analysis of Acts 15 shows the synods of the Pentarchy modeled directly after the Jerusalem council. An analysis of Acts 15 not only shows St Peter having nothing comparable to the role of the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church, but the closest thing to it is the position occupied by James, not Peter.

[@patrickbarnes9874]

@@kahnlives "Spoken like a true orthobro" is itself spoken like someone who is lacking in anything substantive say.