2 EPIC 70s SCHLIEREN ACONIC High-Speed Lifts in Basel, Switzerland

[@fredashay]

Mr Matt and Mr Chay sent me here...

[@Finntrans]

Amazing details about these AWESOME Schlieren elevators. As an electrician I am really impressed by the technology these elevators are using, since I never knew that you could control the elevators using transistors and using eddy current for motor braking. But during start I always thought if they still use Star-Delta connection, but no. It looks complicated, but SUPER advanced for it's time.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thank you very much! Indeed, these lifts are very advanced for their time. Especially if you keep in mind that the Aconic controller was introduced in 1960, the Monotron drive even earlier. What you see here is the 3rdgeneration, the 1st one was controlled electro-mechanically and used tubes for controlling the eddy current brake as transistors were not yet available for such applications in the mid 1950s.

[@ElevatorExploration]

The best sounds, the best motors, the best controlers, the best elevators and the best vidéo :D You were lucky to have been able to film the machine room with the ventilation stopped, because me the day I went there it was running full blast and the audio files of my videos are less good but I'm getting there still good at hear the machines so I am partially satisfied. A very nice installation of the probably last two Schlieren still partially original in switzerland.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thank you very very much, I'm really glad that I was able to capture this footage. They're probably really the last Schlieren Aconics left. There are some more Schindler Aconics though I think. Regarding the ventilation: I turned it off for the video, the control panel is the box above the hatch.

[@ElevatorExploration]

​@@TheLiftDragon Mhm I see, yes schindler aconics dynatron I saw some again in Geneva in 2022 and I even saw an AS Schaffhausen which also had an aconics control and a schindler dynatron motor

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@ElevatorExploration Oh fom AS Schaffhausen, that's really strange. Did not expect that.

[@elevatorsfromswitzerland968]

​​@@TheLiftDragon do you have seen my video of the lifts in Manor Schaffhausen m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4fZfoOErZ58rsk ? Is it right that it s a Schindler R series and a Thyssen both modernized by Otis in an duplex implantation ? I hope I don t say mistakes in my description. I would like to know if before the Otis mod in 2018 the Schindler was still original or already modernized by Thyssen in the 1990s when they added the left one.

[@LUDA14]

one of those good classics!!

[@TheLiftDragon]

Absolutely!

[@elevatorsfromswitzerland968]

​​@@TheLiftDragon and do you know the reason of the replacement in Kaufhaus Manor Thun ? Now there is a Schindler 3300 from 2020. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXLIgKSmn92Zr8U Before it was an hydraulic glass lift from 2002 that I thought it was Otis but a friend told my it was in fact a Schindler D series with Otis-style glass doors. I am very surprised of this replacement after only 18 years

[@fiskurtjorn]

Mr Matt and Mr Chay also sent me here... 0:33 Not only the lifts are a classic, but also the floorlevelfont used is of the same era.

[@MattyEngland]

They sent me too.

[@TheLiftDragon]

As stated, everything is original here except for the door drive. It's a really impressive display of technology from back then.

[@StefV1985]

Auch ich finde es sehr schön, dass es diese Aufzüge immer noch gibt und es sind wahrscheinlich wirklich die letzten Schlieren Aufzüge mit automatischen Türen im Originalzustand in der Schweiz. Leider sollten ja die Personalaufzüge im Parkhaus CHUV in Lausanne mittlerweile modernisiert worden sein, denn dort gab es auch noch originale Schlieren mit automatischen Türen. Ich habe diese Aufzüge hier sogar zweimal gefilmt. Das erste Mal 2016, wo noch alle vier Aufzüge original waren.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Das denke ich auch. Ich kenne zwar noch Schlieren-Anlagen mit den originalen Schlieren-Türantrieben, aber diese wurden halt sonst modernisiert und haben nicht mehr den originalen Antrieb und Steuerung. Und das ist halt der interessante Teil der Anlage, für mich zumindest. Hier sind zwar die Türantriebe nicht mehr original, aber dafür ist im MR oben noch die volle Ausstattung.

[@elevatorsfromswitzerland968]

​@@TheLiftDragonwould you be able to know what were the old lifts in Kaufhaus Manor Luzern before the Thyssen from 2000 ? I believe it could be Schlieren like these ones or Schindler Q-series aconic.

[@TheLiftDragon]

That is something that is not really known. Might have been some old lifts with Schindler M-Series mod but there is no proper documentation on what was before the Thyssens.

[@elevatorsfromswitzerland968]

@@TheLiftDragon thank you :) yes I believe it was already automatical doors from 60s 70s. Probably Schindler Q series or Schlieren with Aconic system. Yes probably already modernized with M series fixtures. I am very interested about what lift were in public spaces in the past before I was able to travel by myself. In Manor Lausanne we have Schindler glass 5500 from 2019. Before it was Schindler S series lifts with three speed doors, probably from between 1993-1996 (you can see them on the Wilddeeper channel). And before, I believe the customers lift were the staff lifts innerdoorless Schlieren refurbished with S series fixtures (sadly replaced by 5500 in 2021) but I am not sure. And something I really want to know is the old lifts in Kaufhaus Manor Morges (my hometown) before the actual Otis 2000 Vf from 2003. I have known the old lifts as a child, it was innerdoorless, there was a white one with double swing doors with long windows and a red one with one single door with an hublot. I don t remember the brand and the fixtures, I really would like to know what were the old lifts in Manor Morges. Actually I believe it probably was Schindler Q series or pop-out modernized with R-series fixtures but it could also have been Gebauer, AS Schaffhausen or Schlieren. I would like to find someone who really knows what it was.

[@elevatorsfromswitzerland968]

@@TheLiftDragon and in Lausanne Coop City Au Centre St Laurent before the actual Kone Monospace from 2019 it was Schindler lifts with D series fixtures and typical orange cabs from late 90s but automatical R-series doors from 1980s with black caoutchouc closures, so it was probably R series heavily modernized D series (it s strange, it they were from 1980s they were modernized D series after less than 20 years). And before I don t know, probably Schindler from early 1960s with manual or automatical doors).

[@philiphowell1505]

Wonderful engineering, had the chance to see these machines at work. Thank you .

[@TheLiftDragon]

You're welcome!

[@Swissvator]

Weisst du ob es die Aufzüge noch gibt?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Als ich letztes Mal in Basel war, das war diesen Sommer, waren sie noch da. Das Parkhaus wird irgendwann abgerissen und neu gebaut, daher bleiben die wohl bis zum Ende in dem Zustand drin.

[@simonspeksnijder4455]

Another great video from you, my big compliments. Timestamp 09:15: both motors starting up, up to higher speed, within 1 sec. of each other.

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thank you!

[@Biasca1]

Dieses Video ist sehr gut gemacht! Tolle Technik! Der Antrieb gefällt mir!

[@TheLiftDragon]

Dankesehr!

[@boyinlove2k]

Loving your vids! How do you know there is enough space on top of the car such that you won't be crushed? And how do you get on top of the car?

[@TheLiftDragon]

I'm glad you like my videos! Knowing about the space in the saft head is a mix of various indicators. In most cases there is enough space if not indicated otherwise. Sometimes I look at the drawings in the motor room that contain measurements or simply observing the shaft head from outside will also indicate how much space there is. Also going near the top on car top inspection will give very clear indication about the space there is. Regulations require faster lifts to have more headroom as well, so they are mostly safe. After all, all of this is based off years of experience. Getting on top involves a special key but I will not publicly disclose this further as I discourage people trying to copy my videos.

[@joris3842]

Wirklich Hammer!!

[@TheLiftDragon]

So ist es. Mit etwas Glück kann ich noch 2-3 weitere Aconics filmen in der Schweiz, aber viel mehr wird es wohl auch nicht geben.

[@SPUDWRENCH]

Wow. Hot on acceleration and drop high to floor level (not even three seconds). Don’t over lube those ropes!

[@TheLiftDragon]

Indeed, the Monotron drive system always had crazy accel / decel but that's what makes it reach such a high transport capacity.

[@liftboy92]

Wow... They are absolutely awesome. Will they be kept, or are they an endangered species?

[@TheLiftDragon]

They indeed are! Aconics are an endangered species in general but I think these two will stay here for a bit longer since there is a lot of spare parts in the motor room.

[@Swisslifts]

Sehr schöne Aufzüge! Leider habe ich gelesen, dass dieses Parkhaus Anfang 2024 abgerissen werden soll und dann gibt es diese Aufzüge auch nicht mehr!

[@TheLiftDragon]

Das ist sehr schade. Aber es heisst wohl, dass die Anlagen noch bis Betriebsende so bleiben, was ein kleiner Hoffnungsschimmer ist. dann kann man sie noch bis dann geniessen.

[@buddyclem7328]

Nice video of a rare lift! Having the elevator doors open into the stairwell seems like an unusual choice. Any idea why they would do that?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Thank you! Lifts in car parks opening into the staircase is a very common thing in Switzerland, I don't see anything unusual.

[@84er23]

welches parkhaus in Basel ist es denn?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Das kann ich hier leider nicht sagen, da ich keine Anlagenstandorte öffentlich preisgebe. Aber mit etwas gezielter Suche kann man diese Anlagen finden, sie sind unter Liftenthusiasten durchaus bekannt.

[@SureshaKanchan]

RESPECTED SIR, PLEASE GIVE SOMETHING FOR EVANS LIFT

[@TheLiftDragon]

I don't have any Evans lifts in my area sadly.

[@invalid1282]

What’s that part ontop of the motor? Looks like a turbo for an electric motor lol but I assume it’s some kind of blower to keep the motor cool? Correct me if I’m wrong

[@TheLiftDragon]

Exactly, these are the cooling fans that come on if the motor reaches a certain temperature. This is a feature most lift motors have because they can get really hot when the lifts are under permanent use.

[@brunoais]

8:20: I'd like to have seen the floor selector sensor closer when it was going up :(. However, I still hope that's the floor sensor...

[@TheLiftDragon]

Yes, this is the shaft info system.

[@jamesm90]

So the resistor frames are just interfaces between the transistors?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Exactly. Since it is just directly connected transistors, you need resistors in between the two potentials of 0 and -22V because else there would be a short. And the connections made through the resistors are there to create any logic function inside one of the frames.

[@JC-jv5xw]

When I first saw these i assumed the plug-in modules were the programming logic. But it is the active transistors. Were they assuming these would be unreliable, like relays. So is all the logic hard wired in the resistor grid behind?

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@JC-jv5xw Exactly, all the logic is hard wired in the blue grids. The drive part is all in the large cabinets on the right.

[@MrTjareson]

Sehr schönes Video! :-) Irgendwie hatte ich den Eindruck, dass man auf dem Fahrkorb am obersten Halt nur noch in der Hocke sitzen konnte, ist das richtig?

[@TheLiftDragon]

Dankesehr! Ja, im Schachtkopf kann man bei in oberster Haltestelle bündiger Kabine nicht aufrecht stehen, in gebückter Haltung geht aber. Das ist hier eigentlich bei den meisten Anlagen so, halt normale Schachtkopfhöhe von dazumal. Ist mir viel lieber als die leider immer öfter anzutreffenden verkürzten Schachtköpfe, die man heutzutage ja so gern baut. :)

[@MrTjareson]

@@TheLiftDragon Gibt es eigentlich noch irgendeine mechanische Sicherung, falls die Kabine mal nach oben "abstürzt", also bspw. die Elektronik die Position nicht erkennt? Nach unten gibt's ja diese ganzen Absturzsicherungen, aber umgekehrt? Ich meine auch mal irgendwo gelesen zu haben, dass, wenn etwas passiert, ungebremste Fahrt an den Schachtkopf gar nicht mal so selten ist.

[@TheLiftDragon]

​@@MrTjareson Das ist von der Anlage und vom Baujahr, bzw. Jahr der Modernisierung abhängig. Die Fangbremse, welche ja durch den Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzer ausgelöst wird, wirkt bei alten Anlagen wie dieser nur einseitig, also abwärts. Bei neueren Anlagen ist die Fangbremse beidseitig wirkend. Zudem sind seit gut übr 10 Jahren Massnahmen gegen unkontrollierte Fahrkorbbewegungen (UCM) an einer Anlage einzubauen. Diese sollen eben auch unter anderem einen Aufsturz der Anlage verhindern. Hierzu gibt es verschiedene Optionen, wie beispielsweise zueätzliche Schienengreifer (Magnetisch geöffnet, federbetätigt), Seilgreifer, Zusatzbremsen auf der Treibscheibenachse oder auch UCM-Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzer, welche zwischen UCM-Modus (sperren sofort bei jeder Bewegung) und normalem Fangmodus umschalten können. Die Komponenten lösen aus, sobald sich der Fahrkorb bewegt, wenn er nicht sollte. Grundsätzlich muss man verstehen, worum es bei diesen Massnahmen geht: Alte Aufzugswinden, wie auch diese hier, haben keine zertifizierten Bremsen. Die Bremsen können sich auch über Zeit abnützen und müssen nachgestellt werden, was direkt an der Anlage geschieht. Wird dies nicht korrekt nachgeführt, kann es sein, dass die Bremse nicht mehr richtig schliesst und da sie die einzige Sicherheit an der Anlage ist, die die Kabine im Stillstand hält, stellt das ein Risiko dar. Bei modernen getriebelosen Maschinen ist eine zusaätzliche UCM-Einrichtung nicht notwendig, da diese Bremsen in sich geschlossene, nach UCM-A3 zertifizierte systeme sind, die auch nicht vor Ort geöffnet, verändert oder nachgestellt werden dürfen. Die Bremsen sind ab Werk korrekt eingestellt, grundsätzlich verschleissfrei und dürfen nur im Herstellerwerk verändert werden. Dadurch wird eine Sicherheit gegen das versagen der Bremsen geschaffen und somit einen Aufsturz verhindert.

[@Manne-Frede]

Nice lifts. Where are these located? Would love to see them irl before they are demolished.

[@TheLiftDragon]

These are in a car park in Basel. I can not give exact locations here but with a bit of searching you can find out where they are. There are also other videos of these lifts here on KZbin which you can use to compare, though none of them show the interesting parts.

[@Manne-Frede]

Thank you for the tip. I think I found them but im not sure if I am correct. Are these at parkhaus messe?

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@Manne-Frede Yep.

[@Manne-Frede]

I have just visited these two lifts and I love them. They are fast, Rare and fun to ride. One thing I dont understand is why none of the videos include the chimes of these awesome lifts.

[@greenaum]

Somebody change the bulb! If you can't get them any more, just stick an LED and an appropriate resistor, it'll do fine and work forever. Any colour you want, and very bright if you want it.

[@TheLiftDragon]

I thought that as well. I have been here multiple times and always some bulbs were broken. I have already thought about changing them, I know what bulbs are required and how to change them.

[@greenaum]

@@TheLiftDragon You definitely should! I wasn't sure they made small incandescent indicator bulbs any more, hence suggesting LEDs. But if you can get the bulbs, why not? Then you're not just a harmless observer, you're making things a little bit better by visiting. It's not like archaeology, it's only the 1970s. You're allowed to replace blown bulbs! A nice lift deserves to shine with it's full ability! The LED possibility, you could get blown bulbs, clean out the glass and internal works, and just use the bottom shell with the power connectors. Solder an LED and appropriate resistor in there to make a replacement bulb. Maybe green would be nice, or aqua... Just plain yellow or white would always fit in.

[@ninteenth]

schlieren and Schindler aren't the same company. Schindler acquired schlieren

[@TheLiftDragon]

Correct. Sady there is no Schlieren anymore and the factory in the city of Schlieren has been closed long time ago.

[@grey_seven]

I don't understand why everything is so complicated? Why do they put so much equipment on a conventional elevator? in my country in those days (the Soviet Union) it was like this: the simpler the more reliable. the elevator could be repaired in a couple of minutes literally with the help of electrical tape. when I look at the elevators of Western countries, I get scared. how to repair it? how to troubleshoot here? looks cool, but it seems to me that it is simply impossible to repair

[@TheLiftDragon]

There are multiple factors that re relevant for this, depending on a situation. The simple answer here is: Because such a simple elevator would not do the job. To be more precise: These lifts are located in a carpark that belongs to a convention center. While they're mostly not under high load under normal days, they will be under extremely high demand when there is a fair going on. So in short terms: When these lifts were planned, it was clear that standard lifts would not have enough transport capacity (number of persons transported per hour). This is why one decided to install these lifts. Also look at the perfect levelling and fast acceleration and deceleration: That saves a lot of time! The Aconic also has a very advanced for the time algorithm to serve the calls. Even the load of the lift plays a role, so that when it's full it will not accept any more hall calls. The Monotron drive system of Schlieren also is a huge improvement because to get lifts that fast otherwise would only be achieved through using a DC generator. That is a mechanically much more complex installation than what actually is present here. Regarding maintenance and repair: Here I guess cultural differences come to play. In Switzerland this work is only done by a lift company and as a technician of a lift company you will have access to all the needed information to work on such a system. We don't just hire some electrician to work on a lift and we son't fix things with electrical tape. In the 70s the big companies were Schindler and Schlieren, they had invented these controllers and therefore had all information on them. They trained their employees on how to troubleshoot them. Basically the same as it is today, just with newer controllers. One has to say though that the knowledge on old controllers like the Aconic here is fading away. There are only a few ones left in the whole country and only Schindler has the documents to it, as well as a few lift enthusiasts. Schindler only trains the very few technicians on it that actually have one within their radius of operation - or it's old technicians that have worked on the job for decades and have witnessed the old days when these controllers were more common. So I think you see what the story here is. The Aconic was a new system, ahead of it's time. It is indeed more complicated than a standard relay controller and especially the bigger installs were probably harder to maintain too. But that was irrelevant because it being much more capable gave Schindler and Schlieren a sales advantage over other companies. Other technicians not being able to maintain it was not a drawback because it bound the customers to Schindler for maintenance. But with the rapid advent of microprocessor technology the Aconic was obsolete in the 90s already since Schindler had the Miconic V in the portfolio, which has a CRT screen and therefore is much easier to operate than the Aconic. Also made error diagnosis much easier, lowering costs for Schindler, and it still is a product only manufactured and maintained by Schindler so customers would stay.

[@grey_seven]

@@TheLiftDragon Thanks for the answer. I guessed that such equipment is serviced by official employees of the manufacturer's companies. in our countries this is little practiced, any small private office can take over any elevator without having any information about it at all, and this is bad. I wonder what kind of elevators you had in the 70s, and what simple cans we had. in this regard, both Europe and America are 15 years ahead of the USSR. (and ahead of modern controllers too) we installed relay cabinets until the end of the nineties, and the first electronic ones were generally a nightmare for radio engineering, while we were doing such garbage Otis developed her legendary lsb2, which not one developer in the post-Soviet countries could surpass in technical terms even in our time. for the same reason, in the USSR, elevators of an imported manufacturer were installed in "special buildings", for example, even in the Kremlin, kone elevators. sorry for using google translate

[@TheLiftDragon]

@@grey_seven Exactly. That is - at least in Switzerland - still mostly the case. The company who builds a lift usually maintains it for a very long time. It sometimes happens that lifts then get modernised by another company that installs their own controller during modernisation, then the new company will maintain it. In the 1970s lifts here were still generally just relay controlled. Aconic was only for the posh lifts that had to be fast and transport a lot of people. But less important, smaller lifts just had relay controllers till arorund the year 1980. Then Miconic came and microprocessor controlled was the new way to go. Also other manufacturers started with these microprocessor controllers and relay controllers weren't used on new installs anymore. Nowadays, all the small companies use open controllers from generic manufacturers where the manuals are freely available on the internet. So everybody could maintain these lifts. But with Schindler, Kone, Otis and ThyssenKruppp this is not really the case. Their controllers are proprietary and while some manuals are available on the internet, not everything is. Also there are always schematics in the motor room of course, that helps as well. I know the LCB2 too actually, they were used around the year 2000 by Otis for Otis 2000 lifts and most low-rise installs. In general, the situation nowadays is as follows: In Switzerland building owners mostly stay with the original manufacturer or the manufacturer of the modernisation. In Germany however, building owners mostly want the manufacturer to install a generic controller such that they could easily change the maintenance company to something else and the new company can still have full access.

[@paulstubbs7678]

@@TheLiftDragon These are probably more maintainable, resistors & transistors are way easier to substitute than custom silicon chips in a PLC etc. assuming the spares shelf at the suppliers run dry on that exact PLC as they eventually will.

[@JoopKomkommerShake]

It's not that high speed. What is it doing 1M/sec?

[@TheLiftDragon]

It is 1.75m/s, which is stated in the video description along with other technical data. 1.75m/s is not the fastest lift I have ever documented, nor is it the fastest I've ever filmed. Yet it is faster than most lifts, especially those without microprocessor.