Absolutely! Love the design, still looks very modern to me. A lot more appealing than many newer designs imo.

Indeed, this lift still runs super smooth, feels a lot better than many newer lifts.

AC motors with brushed do exist, but they are called slip ring motors and the purpose of this is to reduce startup current by switching resistors in parallel with the rotor windings, which are shorted as soon as the motor reaches nominal rpm. And no, a DC generator of a Ward-Leonhard drive system can NOT be replaced with a solid state rectifier. The generator does output a variable voltage depending on the field current, it acts as an amplifier. In oder to drive a DC motor, a H-bridge circuit is needed. In fact, two of them, a big one for the armature current and a small one for the field current as this is a motor with separate supplies.

Absolutely, these things were solid and built to last!

Absolut! Über 65 Jahre in Betrieb, das schafft keine heutige Anlage mehr.

Sematic SDS, older version.

You mean as to why the MX10 is at an angle? Basically yes but also this way of mounting an MX10 for a motor room install is standardised by Kone.

It indeed is!

3 phase AC

Thanks. I asked because I hear no squeal.

Yes, I'm glad I could film it and that it still exists. So you were here too?

@@TheLiftDragon Indeed I was able to see it because @schweizerischeaufzugevonad1968 showed it to me some time ago.

Jap, das ist sehr selten. Gab es als Zusatzoption vor allem für Warenlifte, haben aber nur wenige auch ausgewählt.

Yes indeed, I hope so too. Thank you!

Oh, that's interesting to hear, didn't know that. Maybe that's something one could investigate into, I'll have to see.

Ja echt, hat was. Die alten Mascinen machen oft echt nice sounds.

In Switzerland, most elevators with period swing doors have a pre-opening feature.

Indeed is. I've seen this on many other Schindlers too though. It's a kinda weird DIY circuit, no standard safety relay schematic like mandatory nowadays. The centrifugal switch plays a role in this: it must be closed (slow speed) in order for advanced door opening to work.

There are quite some lifts around here with diagonal or even three doors. But they're often rather well hidden.

Indeed, this is some pretty nice machinery here. Seems sadly you live a bit far away from here in order to see this lift in person. But that's why I make these videos after all, so that everybody can see it.

5:15 what is this in the back of the motor?

5:21 and that is a slip ring motor right?

5:26 what does this assembly do

Okay. Trying to help here. :-) 4:09 - Those are Schindler Timers, used to do delay some switching. Mr.MattandMrChay recently did a video how the work. 4:15 - Those appear to be motor resistors and the switches apply them in any use case. I suppose its used for limiting the current at start up. 4:25 - This is a 3-phase switch, started by the brake motor. It completes the path to the engine, and is there to avoid starting the motor without an open brake. 5:15 - Thats a speed switch, used to switch the motor between star and delta configuation. This is explained too, in Mr.Matts last video. (I'll link it) 5:21 - Yes, appers so to me. 5:26 - If you mean the plate: Thats the same contraption as seen in 4:25 just from the side. Later at 5:28 you see the Schindler selector wheel, which is controling the stops and the direction of the elevator. Link to the video is here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZmpo6ywlqyngMUsi=SceHgR0GQJoRhCOy

@@liftboy92 THANK YOU SOO MUCH This Helped me am LOT I appreciate that

2.3m/s

Thank you!

Obviously MRL, even put it in the title.

It's pretty loud and should be readjusted but I have heard worse.

All of them are noisy. Did you adjust that allready?

The motor is supported absolutely well enough. The PMS420 machines are always flange-mounted and the large cast piece to which the motor is bolted then rests on the motor support structure. The motor overhanging towards the shaft center is even compensated by the ropes resting on the sheave, pulling down the other side. A motor room would have meant a lot of extra costs here. 2.5m/s needs a lot of overrun, which is given here, because the whole top floor is the overrun space. If you were to put in a ceiling below the motor, it would have to be high enough for there still to be enough overrun. This would result in the now generated motor room space having a very low ceiling, which is not allowed. Therefore, the ceiling would have to be raised higher locally, resulting in a lot of extra building costs. So this MRL solution makes perfect sense. The room with the controllers inside is on the plant room floor of the building, it is an area that can be used for storage and it connects the roof exist to the staircase.

Das ist blöd.

Ich filme zwar hauptsächlich Anlagen aus der Schweiz, aber ja, ich bin auch immer mal wieder in Deutschland unterwegs. Stimmt, jetzt wo dus sagst, ich hab ihn offenbar überholt. Es steckt ja auch ne Menge Arbeit in den Videos, das braucht viel Zeit und ist ein riesen Aufwand. Ich meinte, ich habe nach wie vor den einzige Kanal im deutschsprachigen Raum, der alle präsentierten Anlagen so detailliert zeigt. Da sieht man natürlich gerne, wenn sich die Leute dafür auch interessieren.

@@TheLiftDragon aber sowas bitte mach weiter so und so kriegst du mehr abos

gestern hattest du 4280 abos

The roping configurations are the most effective way to either favour speed or capacity of a lift. There are many different options, but the simplest to being called "1:1" or "2:1". With 1:1, the rope is connected directly to the lift car at one end and to the counterweight at the other end. Therefore, the traction sheave will spin with the same speed as the lift moves and it also needs to handle the full tangential force resulting in the weight difference between cab and counterweight. This is used for smaller lifts and or very fast lifts. The next step would be the above mentioned 2:1 roping. The ropes are now fixed in the shaft ceiling, go down to the cab over a pulley, back up to the traction sheave, down over a pulley on the counterweight side and then they're fixed in the shaft head again. This system results in the lift only moving at half the speed of the traction sheave and the motor only needs half the torque because the other half of the weight is now supported by the fixed end of the cable. Or: As we still can use the full load / torque range of the motor, we can now double the capacity. So long story short: Going from 1:1 to 2:1 without changing anything about the motor and gearbox results in a lift with half the speed but double the capacity. Now, what you see here on this lift is called 4:1, with there being 4 ropes on each side. This means that compared to 1:1 we have 4x the capacity and 1/4 of the speed. There is some technical data of the lift in the video description - but to illustrate it with numbers: The traction sheave has a circumferential speed of 2.5m/s, resulting in the lift moving at 0.63m/s, which is 1/4 of 2.5. To sum it up: This type of roping reduces load on the gearbox because the weight of the lift car, cargo and counterweight is shared between multiple fixed points, it reduces the amount/size of ropes needed but increases their length and it affects the gearbox reduction ratio (more speed but less torque is needed).

Thx!

No, the 131HT motors here are DC motors and there's no variable frequency with DC. The MCS411 uses a drive called HSDD (High speed direct drive) manufactured by Magnetek for Otis. This is a solid state drive which outputs the DC voltages for the armature and field windings of the motors. Similar to a VFD but no variable frequency.

Indeed, these are heavy duty.

@@TheLiftDragonand this is why schindlers are high quality

The TMS600 afaik came with 3 possible drive systems: The standard VFD you see here, the SCD, which is a solid state DC drive for high speed gearless machines and in the early days a phase-fired controller similar to what you have seen on the TMS200. From what I know, the TMS200 was discontinued in favour of the 600 before the switch from PFCs to VFDs happened but I could be wrong. A classic phase-fired controller however works differently from what you have seen on the TMS200. The normal working principle can only be used for pole-changing motors with 2 speeds. The mains are fed into the fast windings through the thyristors, which chop off the start of the sine wave depending on the firing angle (0° - 180°, with 0° being nothing and 180° being the full sine wave). Then there is another set of thyristors that only generates DC, which is fed into two of the three terminals of the slow winding. This is used for DC braking. To properly control the lift, a mix of both is used. DC only will not move the lift and AC only is not able to slow down the motor from nominal rpm. There even are systems like the Dynatron MV drive for Miconic V, which in addition to the thyristors for AC uses a separate eddy current brake on the motor instead of DC injection. Also motors for Dyn MV are not pole changers, as the separate brake mitigates the need for the slow speed winding. Now to your TMS200 drive. According to the motor data plate, the motor only has one set of windings, which is very weird for a thyristor drive. It almost behaves like a single speed lift. I must admit that this is some strange system I have never seen before and I also haven't seen pfc implemented like this by any other manufacturer. All other phase-fired drives I know of (Schindler Dynatron S, RST ARC, Ascentronic, ZAdyn 1df, Loher Dynalift...) work in the way I described above. I mean the approach of Kone is not too bad because it only needs one winding instead of two, which saves costs. It works similar to the way that Dynatron 2 stops the lift, by just disconnecting AC power and then braking the lift to a stop by other means. In case of Dyn 2 that would be the eddy current brake, which also runs on DC, but that is a dedicated portion of the motor, needs much less current and the braking process is silent.

@@TheLiftDragon Very interesting, never thought they would use eddy currents to slow down a lift. I love learning about how old lifts work, with new lifts, it's all the same. -_- Didn't realize the TMS I saw was a rarer model, I thought it would be really common, as clearly it's a cheap model.

Yes indeed, they are original from 2006. The lifts were built with destination dispatch from the beginning and the displays run on some super old embedded Windows.

New buildings in my area mostly have ok lifts. A lot is Schindler of course, the 3000 are not worth mentioning (they're often used as cheap replacements for small innerdoorless lifts) but everything that is a bit taller will get something 1.6m/s, be it a Gen2 or 5000 or MonoSpace. Preferably even a generic because the build quality is just better than any of the aforementioned. I've even seen things like a group of 2 Gen2s, 1.6m/s, in a new residential building with only 5 floors above ground + 3 basements. They have advanced door opening, so they run really efficiently. Nothing to complain about.

@@TheLiftDragon We have to live with 16 floors of 1m/s Lester Controls mods, and 11 floors of the cheapest Gen 2s in my city! Developers love to cheap out on the lifts in the UK, and the council love getting crappy companies to modernise their lifts. They got Stannah to modernise a Otis 2000 from 2001. I've seen a 1.6 - 1.8m/s lift for a building with 32 floors + ground level in London.

​@@mushroomcraft Oof, that is really painful. Tbh I'm also under the impression that most building owners go rather cheap on residential lifts here - but that is not comparable of course. 1.6m/s is the norm for 15-20 floors residential, above that it's usually 2m/s. In a posh new residential tower, 30 floors, we even got 3.5m/s Gen2 streams with the ACD4 controller (that is for the Asian market, not the usual GECB-EN) and compass - these things are pretty epic. It's kinda funny how Otis really covers the full range from the very best to the very worst tings. Another thing worth mentioning is probably the Dynatron 2 drive system by Schindler, which offers perfect levelling. It goes up to 1.75m/s with a conventional AC geared machine and it was a lot cheaper than a DC gearless drive, so almost all tall buildings from the 70s and 80s got this. Don't get me wrong, the system is a genius feat of engineering and was the first one ever to do direct levelling, but the lower cost and super fast single floor trips lead to it being installed in buildings where a faster DC system would have been more suitable. So now many tall buildings that would have needed 2.5m/s are now stuck with 1.75m/s lifts, the speed has not been changed after modernisation.

Mannheim wäre am Weg, wenn ich wieder weiter nördlich nach Deutschland fahre. Extra nur nach Mannheim fahre ich sicher nicht. Vielleicht ergibt sich mal was, wenn ich auf Durchreise bin, aber das kann ich nicht garantieren. Die Anlagen voll zu dokumentieren ist nämlich immer ein riesen Aufwand.

Indeed, these machines here are outrunners, where the rotor is built around the stator. Not very common but I really like that design.

Indeed, these are huge. Great for filming but not really up to modern work safety standards. ^^

Yes.

This is actually more common than you might think. Nowadays, it is very common in big office buildings. On larger groups of lifts with many floors, this system can dispatch the lifts much more efficiently than a conventional up/down call system. It also has benefits if not all lifts of the group serve all floors. If you want to go to the basement for example, but only one lift of the group goes there, it will send you this very lift. With a conventional system you would just have to hope to get the right one.

Besten Dank!

Jap, die Anlagen hier sind wirklich schnell unterwegs. Findet man in der Schweiz leider nicht zu oft.

@@TheLiftDragon Ja die schnellsten sind glaube ich die im CityWest Hotel in Chur. Bis jetzt hab ich noch keine schnellere gesehen.

@@Swissvator Wir haben in der Schweiz viele schnellere Anlagen, man muss nur wissen wo. 2.5m/s habe ich jetzt schon zig mal gesehen,d as ist für mich auch nicht mehr so besonders. Wir haben einige Installationen mit 3.5m/s in der Schweiz. Der Prime Tower müsste ausm Hinterkopf iwie 4 oder 5 m/s haben, Die Anlagen aufm Jungfraujoch haben 6.3 und in den Roche Türmen gibt es 7. Aber letzter kann man natürlich nicht filmen. Das schnellste, was ich bisher dokumentieren konnte, ist 6.3m/s, aber nicht in der Schweiz. Hierzulande hab ich bisher 3.5m/s gefilmt, zwei komplett verschiedene Anlagen sogar. Im Gegensatz zu Deutschland haben wir halt viel später angefangen, hohe Bürogebäude zu bauen, deswegen ist es bei uns auch schwieriger mit hohen, schnellen Anlagen. Wohngebäude haben generell halt langsamere Sachen drin. Schindler 5500 mit 2.5m/s z.B. gibts aber echt überall, sogar einige mit 3m/s. Aber das ist halt alles dasselbe. Es ist zwar schnell, aber irgendwie doch langweilig.

Indeed, I like that too. Though one must also take into account that the traction sheaves here have circular grooves instead of trapezoidal ones like on most geared machines. Circular groves produce less traction than trapezoidal ones.

You're welcome!

Dankesehr!

Me too, an original set of high-speed lifts from 1960 would be an insane relic of the time. I know of some such installs from Otis that still exist in the US, but all the European companies like Kone, Schindler and TKE (back then Rheinstahl, as mentioned in the video) also had their own high-speed drive systems. But due to the rarity of older tall buildings in Europe in general, these installs are now super rare and mostly modernised. What can be said is that the lifts here must have originally been DC gearless. That's the only way to reach the speed they have, assuming they were this fast (or at least >=2.5m/s) from the beginning. It is very likely that the MG sets for the DC voltage were placed on the low floor below the the motors, where the governors are. Controllers must have been relay, cause to my knowledge, Schindler and Schlieren were the only ones installing advanced transistor technology at that time. A group of 4 lifts is probably the most likely scenario here, but that I can't tell. Could also have been 2 groups of 2 but that's just a guess. 2006 is almost 20 years ago now and trying to figure out what was before then is really hard. In hindsight I should have had a closer look into all the documentation on site, maybe there would have been some more information. But especially in Germany this is always a gamble. Sometimes there's a huge amount of paperwork containing everything one could wish for, including drawings of the shaft and motor room. And on other occasions there is, well, nothing but a few schematics.

I fully understand, thanks a lot for your time trying to address my question In my country (Macedonia, part of former Yugoslavia) there were mid to high-rise lifts made under license from Schindler and Rheinshtall with various types of drives, but they have been all modernised since many have been beyond repair, mostly due to poor maintenance. I'm refering to lifts made up until the early 1990s. Some simpler 2 speed drives still live on in apartment buildings to this day. I can't wrap my head around the fact that 2006 is almost 20 years ago😅 Time flies so fast

@@igorangelkovski3760 You're welcome! That's interesting to here. I know of Daka-Schindler, so lifts built by Daka under license of Schindler. But it's the same story there with only very few remaining that have the faster, more advanced thyristor drives. Also yes, time is just flying by like crazy. And then I'm trying to somehow capture the old relics of lift engineering that are still around before they're gone, which is getting more and more difficult over time.

I greatly appreciate your efforts to create and upload these videos. Keep up the great work!