217. Plague and the decline of the Roman Empire

[@chrisS19019]

SO EXCITED. The most fun history podcast to listen to. The banter is unparalleled!

[@sondraspeer5481]

My undergrad was Greco-Roman history. No mention ever of plague or the Mini-Ice Age either. Didn’t get that info until well into grad school and after. Tom, as a historian of religion myself, I love your rattling Dominic w/ connections to religion - especially Christianity in the context of Western civilization, and myth! I got my 25 yr old son, a grad student in history, to listen to your podcasts - he loves the juxtaposition of your “views” as well.

[@JMGerstman]

love Kyle's feature here, his work is incredibly interesting and he is a very well spoken guest with awesome takes so its quite refreshing to hear his voice again. Amazing pod guys:)

[@lakedistrict9450]

Fascinating. Thank you.

[@cthornton523]

Dan Carlin brought me here. You are both delightful, as is Kyle. Such fun! Totally subbed.

[@michaelk19thcfan10]

A major trade route that opened up during the Pax Romana was the Indian Ocean trade. Not a coincidence pandemics started to break out in the Empire.

[@andrewbuswell6010]

“As a result, much of what we think we know about ancient Rome’s statistical life expectancy comes from life expectancies in comparable societies. Those tell us that as many as one-third of infants died before the age of one, and half of children before age 10. After that age your chances got significantly better. If you made it to 60, you’d probably live to be 70. Taken altogether, life span in ancient Rome probably wasn’t much different from today. It may have been slightly less “because you don’t have this invasive medicine at end of life that prolongs life a little bit, but not dramatically different”, Scheidel says. “You can have extremely low average life expectancy, because of, say, pregnant women, and children who die, and still have people to live to 80 and 90 at the same time. They are just less numerous at the end of the day because all of this attrition kicks in.”There is a basic distinction between life expectancy and life span,” says Stanford University historian Walter Scheidel, a leading scholar of ancient Roman demography. “The life span of humans - opposed to life expectancy, which is a statistical construct - hasn’t really changed much at all, as far as I can tell.”

[@beback_]

Yes it's certainly not the case that people got "old" at 30

[@zenden6564]

Strongly agree, Kyle is misleading on this. The big deal is 50% of children dying before 10. The impression Kyle gives is of the average Roman dying in their mid-twenties is just wrong IMO.

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

No, this podcast is totally right and hippies fiercely want to believe that it's naturally ordained that people live a long time. It's absolute hooey. Life expectancy in even 1880 was around 40. There is huge statistical data on this. Without medicine people die of childbirth, murder, endless warfare, slavery, famine, accidents, sepsis, foul water, TB, malaria - the list is very long indeed. In the Roman Empire in 160 and 270 AD about 30% of the population were slaves, so had even less access to good food, rest, choices about warfare, childbirth; they had more risk in life, more disease, worse water, less sanitation.

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

@@beback_ most people didn't make it to 30.

[@nomadpurple6154]

A better statistical measure is life expectancy starting at 15years. ie removing the infant mortality mentioned.

[@briangarrow448]

Fascinating subject. Great guest. Well done gentlemen.

[@Psmith-ek5hq]

Tom is a star. And all thanks to Philomena Cunk.

[@edwardcarrington3531]

Yall deserve more views

[@edwardcarrington3531]

Fire pod boys

[@sylviaroyce8736]

I don’t think they discussed the theory that the Antonine plague was smallpox. Maybe I missed it? Or maybe that theory has been discarded?

[@cyclofeedubox8332]

I’m sure they were talking about this theory 20yrs ago but I’m glad to see it raised in profile to a wider audience. This and climate change, hugely underrated factors

[@simonwells2213]

The plague explains a lot. Couple that with years such as 536 AD and you've got chaos and occupation.

[@bedofromkokstad9034]

What about the Krakatoa eruption in 536? That would have impacted food supply and the spread of disease along with the starvation.

[@johngalt97]

Grain allows more humans to survive and procreate, but in poorer health. Look at the problem our overweight carbohydrate eating population had with COVID.

[@robertalpy]

25 for a slave outside the city working the fields or the mines, but for city dwellers that aren't destitute or on the bread ration who can afford their own home with clean water, or a slave belonging to such a person the lifespan could be double that.

[@TheKamiakin]

Yeah... COVID 19 did NOT come from a weapons lab in Wu Han. Preach that party line fellahs.

[@redsword1659]

It didnt. Thats old hat. Catch up.

[@jannarkiewicz633]

I learned.

[@bookaufman9643]

I had always heard that the Antonine plague was most likely smallpox. Galen most likely thought so. I guess there were varying descriptions and nothing that was scientifically a clincher.😊

[@showze21]

well yes the roman empire was a huge taxation apparatus that reduced the caloric intake of it subjects, and thus their health. it was certainly true in britain

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

Min 28 - a collapse was to the east, surely.

[@louisburke8927]

26:38 it was a famine full stop not a potato famine

[@JohnLandau-h5g]

woo

[@JohnLandau-h5g]

plague

[@jonathanlaver346]

Average age life was 50 plus he is rubbish

[@billythedog-309]

l can confirm these are all English words.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Sorry but the whole " average life expectancy was 28 " thing has been debunked countless times... If these clowns want to.he taken seriously they ought to be aware just how meaningless that statistic actually is !! Dumbing Down seems to be as contagious as the Plague . But hey..!....the banter is great....?!?!?

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

It hasn't been debunked. Even by 1880 in the Uk life expectancy was only 40.

[@NineteenEighty-Four]

Lots of porn bots live here lol

[@chrisS19019]

True. Report button only works in large numbers

[@TheMightyMurse1917]

@@chrisS19019 Something must have worked, I don't see any of them now!