.38 Special Wadcutter Experiment

[@scottgates8629]

Timing couldn’t be better. I have been reloading for 30 years. Didn’t load a DEWC until 2 hours ago. I was back and forth between seating depths. All of what you covered in your video, I couldn’t help thinking the same things while making my loads. So, thank you sir. You saved me the trouble of doing that experiment myself

[@artfulalias3984]

38 spl. target loads have a lot of unused case volume, from the black powder origins of the cartridge. So the effect is noticeable but not critical. With full power 357 or a space efficient modern cartridge, a small change in bullet depth from case mouth to bullet base will have a much greater effect. Deep seating can cause critical pressure spikes.

[@314299]

A really fine example of what you are talking about is the common 9x19mm round which operates at pressures similar to the .357 Mag. Bullets seated too deeply have caused lots of "kabooms" in 9mm pistols.

[@garyK.45ACP]

Your results mirror what I found years ago when experimenting with the cast 148 gr. "button nose" wadcutter I use. Deeper seating results in higher velocity and better consistency. I use 2.8 gr. of Hercules Bullseye and lightly crimp the bullet on the forward edge. Only the "button nose" protrudes past the case. I use straight wheel weight metal for casting these.

[@314299]

It's pretty hard to beat the old tried and true Bullseye for .38 special target loads. Wheel weight makes good target velocity bullets but I often cut WW alloy 50% with range scrap metal when I have it.

[@thereindeertherabbitthebat592]

Great video! I've always wanted to try this over a chrono. Thanks a bunch 👍 Very cool results!

[@314299]

No problem.

[@zeke10]

I was shooting 38 specials from a 4" Gp100 with hornady soft lead 148 wadcutters, with a bunny fart charge of 2.5g hp-38. Loaded them flush crimped 588fps. I then seated them 1/8" above flush n force crimped them. I woulda thought the fps woulda increased... velocity went down! 411fps. The wife wants to get shooting again, so I figured I would build a light charge 38 so she doesn't get flinchy. I'm glad someone else experimented with seating depth. Great video!! 👍

[@314299]

Wow, 411 fps. That's getting down to the point where one might start to worry about the occasional one not getting out of the barrel. Sounds to me like your flush crimped 588 fps load would be the way to go, should be no particular recoil with that one.

[@zeke10]

The (411 avg)low velocity loads were printing paper at 30yds, and running out of energy. Originally some of the flush mounted wadcutters were sliding down inside the case during reloading process. So I figured I would leave them exposed a bit and crimp them like that. I sure thought the pressure/velocity would go up. The opposite happened. A learning experience for me! I am going to bump the charge to 3.0 hp-38 and ensure a decent velocity.

[@hardball107]

Thanks for the video. I like my wadcutters too, I load 148gr. BBWC and crimp them in the standard crimping groove. I do both 38 Spl. and 357 and have noticed fine accuracy with the light to medium loadings but when loaded hotter the ES and DV drop (to a point) and the accuracy hardly drops off using Unique or CFE Pistol, Auto Comp works well too, at least that I can notice with my skills. I have driven them well over 1000fps. in the 357 and they're great for smacking anything on range day or downloaded for the occasional beer can in the back yard.

[@314299]

Interesting. There is a "magnum" style of wad cutter designed to better deal with higher speeds.

[@hardball107]

@@314299 I've seen them but I cast my own solids from scrap lead and powder coat them. That's the secret, you can cast dead soft lead and once powder coated for lube they don't lead the barrel. I've shot them over large charges of 2400 and H110 to over 1700fps in my 20" Rossi lever action and clean up is a few passes with a brass brush and a swab out with a little Hoppe's. No more leading, none.

[@SCSlimBoiseID]

Nice experiment. Optimum bullet seating depth in handguns seems to hover right around the point at which the base of the bullet almost or barely comes into contact (but does not compress) the powder charge. It may be that uniform ignition and/or burn time of the charge is optimized by that arrangement, and so the bullet gets the optimum push from the expanding gases. In theory, it seems that the best results should be realized by a powder charge that reaches or very nearly reaches 100% combustion (and the peak of its pressure curve) at about the same time as the base of the bullet clears the cylinder gap, although there would certainly still be some (diminishing) force exerted on the bullet past that point as the gases continue to expand, until the bullet leaves the muzzle. My experience in loading handgun ammunition has been essentially the same as that shown in your demonstration. Stay safe out there. Cheers.

[@314299]

When you think of how low the load density is in standard, non wad cutter, 38 ammo it's a wonder that the stuff shoots as well as it does.

[@stenmoeller]

You are right. The main advantage is uniformity. The rest is depending on powder and charge.

[@regsparkes6507]

That was interesting too,..and with my favorite revolver too!

[@314299]

An old 686 is hard to beat.

[@regsparkes6507]

@@314299 And I, in a moment of stupidity or weakness, traded my 686 in on a beautiful ( to me ) Browning T Bolt. I do now have, however a really sweet shooting .22 magnum rifle. I still miss that S&W 686. Oh well!

[@orangetlr]

Always loaded wad cutters almost flush in 38 special. Win 231 and Federal primers always seemed to be the ticket.

[@314299]

Federal primers were always the choice of those who had the mainspring lightened up for a better trigger pull. 231 was one of the classic "38" powders, I've used a fair bit of it myself over the years.

[@1st1shot]

I shoot mine with Bullseye and CCI primers and am pretty happy.

[@wbriggs111]

I used bedding cushion material in my 38 sp and loaded 158gr. with 4.5 Bullseye. I got 60 fps more velocity using a semi loose pack between the bullet and powder out of a 2" barreled snub nose. Note : over compressed loads are very dangerous out of revolver ammo.

[@314299]

I'm not a fan of using fillers in ammo as they occasionally cause problems like barrel ringing. No one ever has a problem with filler in loads until they do.

[@greentoptrekker]

Very cool experiment, how much do you think the amount of crimp would affect velocity and consistency? Coincidentally, probably the worst handloads I've ever produced were .38 Special cartridges trying to make use of 90 or 95 grain .355 projectiles intended for a .380 Auto... a lot of empty case capacity in that instance, though I didn't expect much to begin with. I've had lots of happy days loading 158gr. SWCs in the meantime.

[@314299]

It would make for an interesting experiment to try perhaps no crimp, mild, medium and heavy crimps to see the effect on consistency. The downside to heavy crimps is that they are hard on case life.

[@stenmoeller]

@@314299 38 Special doesn't need a crimp at all, unless you really load it hard. I have never crimped my 38 Sp cartridges more than just straightening them out, and that's not only me, if you study the internet.

[@Mike_S_Swift]

Just starting to load 38/357 although I have been reloading rifle since 72’. Quickload software shows you how pressure and velocity changes with bullet seating depth.

[@314299]

Regrettably I dont have access to that software, but I do have a range to shoot at and a chronograph.

[@davidwagner4671]

Great video as always

[@willcravens2893]

Great information and thank you for sharing!

[@314299]

Thanks for the feedback.

[@reloader7sixtwo]

How did the three different load lengths shoot, any sufficient accuracy differences or were the groups all about the same? Several years ago I bought a NOE clone of the Lyman 358156 gas check, double crimp groove HP/ FN mold originally designed by Ray Thompson that allows you to crimp the bullet long in 38 special cases to keep bullet jump to a minimum. It was one of Skeeter Skeltons favorite bullets for light to heavy 357 loads. I like to run light to med. 357 mag. loads in 38 special cases as Skeeter and some others did in the past using that bullet with Unique an 2400.

[@314299]

If I recall correctly the long ones shot worse and there was not a lot of difference in accuracy of the two shorter loads, keeping in mind that winter was not an ideal time to test groups.

[@mckwilly]

Great info, I've recently been casting with the Lyman/ideal 35891 and it seems to a favored one

[@314299]

That's a good bullet design, I have a copy of that mold.

[@chevy6299]

A fun and interesting experiment. That is except for the cold and snow.

[@314299]

I do prefer the warmer weather, but on the plus side there were no bugs to contend with when this was filmed.

[@chevy6299]

Hahahaha true.

[@1LRLRG]

Snow in Sept, you have it rough in Ontario. I'm in shorts and tshirt in BC

[@314299]

Luckily now snow in September, the video is from February. Also I'm further east than Ontario.

[@1LRLRG]

Please say you're not an East Coaster, Oh my god. Good video, I haven't tried the different seating depths yet will need to check them in my ruger Blackhawk and 686. I usually have been shooting 158 SWC with just occasional 148s. What powder do you favour?

[@314299]

@@1LRLRG I'm from one of the Maritime provinces. As to powder preference I prefer good old Bullseye for loading lead bullet .38 Spl loads. A very time tested powder suitable for almost all target handguns loads.

[@1LRLRG]

@@314299 I spent a lot of time out in Halifax during the winter, made me miss the rain. I tend to use 231 which was recommended by some PPC shooters I know.

[@ocean374]

Great testing I need to get a mold of those double end wad cutters also it’s snowing in Canada all ready

[@314299]

Not snowing yet, fortunately. Video is from last winter.

[@ocean374]

Oh ok cool 😁

[@314299]

@@ocean374 There is still green grass and leaves on the trees at the moment.

[@Thorsaxe777]

Great video, That 148 re DEWC is a mold that is offered by Magma and is engineered for their automated machine, you can get that mold through them for hand casting, however, there are better mold designs available. My favorite is a MP mold that casts four at a time and has different pins with it so you can change the weight of the bullet to suit your shooting needs, At short range all you need in the 132 gr as it aids in rapid fire for less recoil, for longer ranges you can cast ether a 140 gr HB or a strait flat base 148, those are for the 50 yard slow fire stages of the NRA Bullseye outdoor pistol match. You have an awesome S&W 686 there, I have one that is a -2 that is a four inch. I acquired a Bill Davis that is built off of a Mod-20 HD old 5 screw, it is as slick as wet ice on ice and is built around the use of wadcutters. It is a Joy to shoot. anyway, great work, -Dave

[@NotAffiliated]

I'm wondering what would happen if you put wad cutters in .357 brass instead of .38 special to not only decrease velocity but also make for less cleaning chores at the end of the day.

[@314299]

It is possible that chambers would be a bit cleaner if .357 brass were used. One thing to consider is that the 357 brass often has thicker case walls than .38 special. Because of this one might run into bulged cases with 357 brass that might not chamber if bullets are seated deeply (especially with cast wad cutters of larger than standard diameter).

[@NotAffiliated]

@@314299 I'll work out the details later, I just want to know if it's possible, as it's one more motivating factor to getting started reloading. As somebody new to shooting, my hope was to start making my own loads right away and to make really mello loads and slowly crank them up to magnum strength as I get good at handling it but to use the same cases the whole time, as to minimize the number of changes I make over time.

[@terryfowler6090]

I did this with mouth crimped just above the lubricant. Worked extremely well with +p loads.

[@314299]

What powder charge did you use?

[@arthurholmes2210]

What model Smith is that ? It look like a 686 , i had a blued twin of this called a model 14-5 heavy lug barrel .

[@314299]

It is a 686. The same gun blued finish would be a 586. It is an "L" frame gun, your 14-5 would be a "K" frame. The "L" frame is a somewhat larger gun and is rated for constant use with .357 Magnum.

[@mkshffr4936]

My guess is that if you adjust the powder charge to get the same peak pressure the longer OAL should allow for a little extra velocity. Almost certainly would be the case with black powder. :D

[@314299]

Possibly, but my goal when loading .38 wad cutters is to keep the velocity as low as possible.

[@jakeoutdoors9600]

My brother has a Ruger Blackhawk in 357nmag. The gun likes 357 mags loaded fairly hot. The gun does not shoot 38 Special "plinking" rounds nearly as well. I wonder if playing with the OAL would make the gun more accurate with the 38 spl. A longer round would have less of a jump to the rifling, or a shorter round with the slightly greater velocity may help. Its worth a shot. Very informative video! By the way, keep that snow up there. Don't need any right now in Pennsylvania. LOL

[@314299]

I have heard of some guys who load .38 loads in .357 brass in an effort to get good accuracy from their magnum revolver. Might be worth a try if other methods fail.

[@russf6572]

I've been wondering about this myself. Thanks!

[@314299]

No problem, thanks for the comment.

[@glenk2254]

Did I miss what the powder and charge was used? The fully seated bullet is the only way my S&W 52 will feed. Good to know that accuracy if probably optimized at that depth!

[@314299]

Hi, I did not mention the powder or charge weight as the purpose of the video was not to provide load data but rather to show what happens when seating depths are changed. If I recall correctly the charge was a common target level one with Bullseye powder.

[@bidkid2020]

Very good video good information also thank you very much I'm getting ready to load these for the first time

[@314299]

Are you loading bullets you cast yourself or commercially purchased ones?

[@bidkid2020]

I’m kind of in the same boat as you I had a friend of mine give these to me all I know is they are 148 gr WC they look just like yours

[@shaundoodles]

I know you live in Canada, but it’s still summer up there?

[@314299]

Yes, it's still summer. Video was from last winter.

[@GunFunZS]

I'm pretty sure fortune cookie did a very similar series a while back. If I remember his results correctly, reducing case capacity really paid off.

[@314299]

No doubt I'm not the first to post a video on this topic. I don't watch much of FortuneCookie45 stuff, I should head over to his channel to see what he did on the subject.

[@GunFunZS]

@@314299 he took most of his catalog off of KZbin unfortunately. Iirc he ended up developing reduced capacity brass for 44cal after proving better consistency for light loads

[@brentchambers511]

Love the stocks on your Smith.

[@314299]

They are the original ones and I find them quite comfortable, and I think they look good as well.

[@brentchambers511]

@@314299 I'm sure you've seen what they go for on eBay these days...

[@glennsammon4465]

cold weather affects velocity. so if the weather was warmer they might have been higher. 148 gr at 800 fps would wallup someone good . without alot of recoil.

[@314299]

Temperature does effect the velocity somewhat, but it is not a big issue with fast burning powder used in rounds like the .38 Special. When you use slower burning powders like those used in .357 Mag the differences become much more noticeable.

[@billy56081]

Exactly as one would expect.

[@314299]

Pretty much.

[@lestergillis8171]

Seating depth can & DOES affect pressure & velocity, assuming everything else is equal.

[@314299]

Yes, that's what the video is illustrating.

[@lestergillis8171]

@@314299 Of course , not all laymen will understand this. That's why I made that comment. NEVER put 357 loads into 38 cases. But you can put 38 loads into 357 cases, the velocity will just be down somewhat.

[@ejsocci2630]

Thanks for sharing this information.

[@314299]

No problem thanks for the comment.

[@curtkimbell228]

What was your reloading specs. Or did I miss it, powder and grains? I have had these same bullets for 30 years, finally decided to reload. Thank you

[@314299]

Hi, I did not mention the powder or charge weight as the purpose of the video was not to provide load data but rather to show what happens when seating depths are changed. If I recall correctly the charge was 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder.

[@curtkimbell228]

@@314299 This is great information. I also use bullseye, this helps me with my data gathering. Thanks again

[@miketreen7403]

Great video!

[@314299]

I appreciate that.

[@StumpkillerCP]

What were the accuracy differences?

[@314299]

I tested these at fairly short range (30 feet) and up that close there was no notable difference in accuracy. However if one moves back to a distance such as 50 yards I've no doubt there would be a difference in the group sizes.

[@StumpkillerCP]

@@314299 Thanks for responding. I set my HBWC nearly flush and wondered if the reduced jump had any noticable effect. On a side note - after scrounging from old supplies on dusty shelves I am loading .38 Spl with Unique powder that cost $7.99/Lb and CCI 500 primers that cost $8.99/1000. Down to my last box of locally produced $2.99/100 wadcutters. Paint me a hoarder . . . but it's paying off now. Shooting them in a S&W much loved 6" M14-4.

[@pecosjane]

Very Interesting. Thank you.

[@314299]

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for the comment.

[@stenmoller5700]

It's consistent with what I read about powder combustion in relation to space. The more space, the larger the velocity deviation. Therefore it would be interesting with an experiment going the other way, i.e. seating the bullet deeper. My gunsmith says he gets the lowest velocity deviations when seating the bullet just on top of the powder, which reduces the variation of powder location and therefore increases the similarity of the combustion process of the powder of the cartridges. Of course your load would have to be reduced somewhat. Of course the cartridge looks funny with that deep seated bullet, but if it's results you are after, who cares :-) So that's at least what I'm going to try at my next reloading session. It would also have been interesting to see the difference in accuracy.

[@lestergillis8171]

Your gunsmith is, of course right. Full wadcutters are normally designed to be loaded near flush with the case mouth anyway. With reduced case volume, due to bullet seating depth, SHOT START PRESSURE will be somewhat higher. DO NOT load your first batch at maximum powder charge.

[@314299]

While seating the bullet deeper might result in more consistent ignition of the powder the action of seating the bullet deeper also increases the "jump" of the bullet to the barrel which might effect accuracy. The key is finding a good balance.

[@stenmoeller]

@@314299 It's obviously possible, but I don't know if I would agree, as the bullet is just moving forward in the tight brass until it "jumps". I'm going to try this winter. Couldn't do it thus far as I was working a batch of Magtech cases with a cannelure, which resulted in quite a bulge when pressing the bullet past. I did try one, though, and the speed was substantially higher at the same time that the recoil was noticeably milder. I'm looking forward to testing this properly.

[@sambadham1404]

So to quite literally get the 'most bang for your buck' you should seat the bullet in as far as you can. Makes sense.

[@314299]

One does not want to get too carried away with deep seating bullets in pistol rounds, for example seating a bullet too deeply in a high pressure round like the 9x19mm can lead to excess pressures. With a low pressure round like the 38 Special it's not as much of an issue.

[@bigtrev761]

🇦🇺😎👍I wish it was cold down here. Just another hot Christmas season. I think I was born in the wrong country

[@314299]

I'm not great in heat myself, probably as I'm just not used to it. I dont mind the cold here so much as the long periods of grey, cloudy weather. November and April seem to be the worst months here for lack of sunshine. A cold sunny day is just fine with me.

[@cory8791]

Great vid!!!!

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@understandingtruth10]

Now please revisit it in 357 magnum powder load.

[@314299]

That's an interesting idea.

[@griffithk]

Great stuff. Subbed.

[@314299]

Thanks.

[@RandyHTFFforever]

SNOW?

[@314299]

This was from back in February.

[@tberkoff]

That's either some very early snow or it took you a very long time to edit this video!

[@314299]

It's a mildly edited re-upload. There may be more of these "recycled" vids in the future.