38 Special 158 gr. LHP +P: Is It Any Good?

[@LUVDOGS1954]

Old School round for Old School guys (you and me...😋).

[@garyK.45ACP]

These (or something similar) were our issued ammunition when I became a police officer in 1973. We were allowed to carry .357 Magnum revolvers, but the department issued the ammunition and it was .38 Special, 158 gr. SWC-HP. It was not marked "+P" at that time. Later it was. The ammunition was issued to us in plain white cartons of 50 rounds but had a "W-W", "R-P" or "FC" headstamps. As I understand, when the department replenished ammo, they would buy for any of those that met the standard and had the best price. We were also issued 148 gr. HBWC loads for practice. I was on the Chicago PD and we called it the "FBI load", which the FBI had adopted in 1972. Other people called it the "Chicago load", but the FBI were the first agency to use it. They were _supposed to be_ delivering 900 FPS from a 4" barrel. 🤷‍♂We didn't have chronographs and ballistic gel to test it in, but the results of 12,000+ officers using it were good enough to keep it standard issue until autoloaders were approved in 1986, and beyond for those who chose to carry revolvers. In my .38 Special and .357 Magnum carry revolvers (which I still frequently carry) I use the Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P 158 gr. lead SWC-HP. I do have a chronograph now and they produce 986 fps from a S&W Model 642 1-7/8" barrel and 1025 fps from a 2.5" barrel Model 19. In my 4" Colt Trooper MK III and S&W Model 28, they produce a bit over 1060 fps. They are distinctly more "energetic" that the loads we carried in the 1970s-80s. I am interested to see how this ammo does. Buffalo is not cheap and about the only way I can get it is mail order...so add shipping costs to high prices.

[@DanTheWolfman]

The standard BB or UW is what the old +P was basically...but only them and the Remington have the soft lead you want for snubs at least.

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@DanTheWolfman I'll look into these. I just replenished my BB loads and they were expensive! And I couldn't find them locally, so add shipping to the price. I'll buy some and shoot them over my chronograph. I carry them in snub nosed revolvers, though. 1-7/8", 2" and 2-1/2", so I will do some expansion testing also.

[@DanTheWolfman]

@garyK.45ACP they are known to be good to go soft lead even shortest at standard velocity. I do Hydrashok Deep myself. Where in the heavier 2 1/2" may want the plus P in that as more controllable. There plus p in jframe is likely a bit too much idk

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@DanTheWolfman The J frame I carry is a +P rated. I have 2 older J frames that are not +P rated, but I don't use those as carry guns anymore. I did carry the department loads in them when I was using them as off duty guns, but I rarely fired them with that ammo. The 2" is a Colt Detective Special and the 2-1/2" is a S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum, so +P is not problem. I just carry the BB in all of them for simplicity.

[@DanTheWolfman]

@garyK.45ACP cheers, I just wasn't sure if you restocked +P or standard. Either one works they just pricey and some realized standard may be more controllable on most jframes while +P of there's which is super hot better in like 640s or steel guns that was my point. Either way rock on.

[@sgtmajtrapp3391]

Also known as FBI LOAD. I have always liked this as with fixed sights it hits point of aim and has always given good service. I favor them for my 2" S&W and Colt revolvers and some 3" guns I've had too.

[@Gumby56]

Like others, this was the round we were issued in 1979. The S&W model 15 was our issued sidearm with the OCSD, Orange County California.

[@Desperado3248]

The 158 lhp 38 was a great load with a proven real world track record in 2 inch revolvers. I carry only two loads in 38 revolvers . A 158 lhp and a gold dot , which doesn’t plug much and still expands with a small amount of clothing in the bullet mouth. There is a fair amount of deviation in 158lhp plus p ammunition. Some loads hitting under 800 fps, some 825 to 850 fps from 2 inch barrels. The best performers are the Buffalo Bore 158 lhp gas checked bullets. From a two inch barrel the standard pressure loading hits 825-850 fps, as fast or faster than all other plus p versions. The plus p version has no rival. It hits 1025-1050 fps out of S&W and Colt 2 inch revolvers. Out of a 4 inch revolver, it will hit o er 1100 FPS. Gives you low end 357, in fact out of a 2 inch - 2 1/2 357 the only 357 load near the same weight that is faster than the Buffalo Bore is the Winchester 147 grain silver tip. Would be interesting to compare live fire Chrony and penetration of the plus p loads with the Buffalo Bore standard and plus p versions. Good topic. Old guys paid less for good guns, and saw the great bands live😅

[@iaidagger8278]

@@Desperado3248 Nice comments!!..

[@coldandaloof7166]

I carried this load on duty at my agency until I switched ro the the Remington Golden saber 125gr. in 2006 in my 4" Smith 66. Then in 2008 was forced to go to the M&P .40. Still have my 66 and carry it occasionally. Still like this load. The Federal and the Winchester are made of harder lead and do NOT perform the same. It really takes a 4" or longer barrel to get these to work the way they are intended to. This is a great load

[@patreilly4293]

Semper Fi brother! Great video. Did 26 years in the Corps myself. Retired law enforcement as well. I collect police revolvers and love .38 Special.

[@hrfunk]

Semper Fi! Thanks for watching.

[@golferpro1241]

Got an M&P .38 4” produced in 1956. Was my Dad’s service gun. I have a model 10 4” produced in 1984, a model 36 5 shot 1984 and a model 65 3”. Both myself and Dad were NYPD. Great guns but the Glocks are so much easier to carry. Thanks!

[@boostimalaka1]

I carried the 158 grain .38 Special +P LSWCHP ammunition that was in the Green and Yellow Box from Remington. It was chosen for officers who carried a J frame off duty back up. The Department found that the Remington lead did expand from the snub nosed revolvers. The FBI load and Chicago Load was the 158 grain LSWCHP +P from Winchester. We used that in our 4” service revolvers before going to the 9mm Glock 19. The NYPD issued the Federal NYCLAD 158 grain +P for officers who carried a revolver. When the NYPD went to the 9mm. Speer developed an 135 grain Gold Dot +P load. It was actually a very effective load in OIS over the years.

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

@@boostimalaka1 Yes, the NYPD 🚔 selected Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P was ✅️ ... 1 problem I noticed with SWC lead HPs was in carry, speed strips the soft lead tip could bend or deform 🤔 . Pro tip: I learned this in 2010s. A small Altoids mint tin can hold 2 loaded Bianchi or Tuff Products speed strips. 🕶

[@RichardScheff-w8x]

Back in the late 70's - early 80's we were issued 158 grain LSWCHP. I don't remember if they were +P. Then we switched to 125 grain SJHP. After that it was all semi-auto 9mm; and .45 ACP. I carried 6 rounds in the revolver and 12 more on the belt, plus a 12 gauge pump. Of course, a slapper, stick, and sap gloves. Oh, the times were so different.

[@boostimalaka1]

@@RichardScheff-w8x The Norco Bank Robbery was another example of Law Enforcement being armed with revolvers and pump shotguns using #4 Buck. The Oxnard Police Department was ahead of its time with tactics and firearms in California. Times have changed, body camera, Taser and High Capacity 9mm Pistols with optics.

[@RichardScheff-w8x]

@@boostimalaka1 by the time I retired we had switched to 9mm, .45ACP. Patrol rifles were still in the future. LEO's today are much better equipped and trained than we were back "in the day". My god, when I first went on the job the police radio stayed in the car. There were still call boxes to call into the desk. Occasionally a dinosaur would get loose, and we would have to wrangle it back into the cave. Times have changed. The only thing that was better then was that we had the support of the public and the political infrastructure.

[@darrelldunlap7249]

You are going to get all of us old Cops commenting as the guns and ammo were probably close to what we were issued or permitted back in the late '70s until the semis showed up. For me the 158 LHP 158gr +P and if I remember +P+ was what was available to us back then. Of course, there was still a bunch of 158 LRN also. I carried those loads in the S&W 15, 19, 28, 60 and Colt Python and Lawman MKIII. BTW: Favorite duty holster was the Nelson Breakfront or the Hoyt Breakfront. As I mentioned to you a while back, we often carried the first two chambers loaded with the .38 +Ps and the rest with the issued Speer 125gr. .357s. That gave us two quick relatively lower recoil shots to solve the problem and, if not, here comes the pain with the .357s! BWT: Those Speer Lawman were real blasters and little fun to shoot. In short, the 158gr LHP +P are still viable rounds that I would count on still today! Never cared much for the Nyclad. Again, if I remember, the bullet was blue? You should also!!!🤣 Great content! Really nice 686!!!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you! Testing these "legacy loads" is a lot of fun. It's also cool to see them still holding their own.

[@frankhinkle5772]

@@darrelldunlap7249 I carried my Model 19 in a highrise Hoyt holster. That was a great purchase. The local CHP office had a timer and officers would compete for fastest draw, and the Hoyt break-fronts were winners.

[@darrelldunlap7249]

Hoyt's are amazing! I had Nelsons (issued). They are essentially the same except they had an additional support strap around the trigger guard. I liked the high rise also and a modest cant muzzle forward.

[@frankhinkle5772]

@@darrelldunlap7249 My mentor was tall and lanky. He wore a Hoyt holster with a drop, similar to a Border Patrol holster, but with a reverse cant. That put the grip right at his hand. That was a fast draw! I was built different with not much "drop," so I stuck with a high-rise.

[@d7dun1010]

I found that to be a fast draw, also! Being short waisted, the high ride was better for me. Unfortunately, Hoyt is no longer. However, A.E. Nelson still is,

[@frankhinkle5772]

Thanks for that test, a subject near and dear to my heart. In 1977 my department issued the S&W Model 66 revolver for extra strength, but issued Remington .38+P 158 grain LRN cartridges, which was pretty antiquated for the time. A conspiracy was formed to purchase and issue SJHP .38 cartridges, guessing that the boss didn't know what "SJHP" stood for, and we got modern CCI/Speer hollow points. God bless our range master and his co-conspirators for doing that for us. We carried that until the last of our deputies transitioned to semiautomatics about 1998. That's another chapter. I carry the .38 +P Gold Dot in my S&W Model 642 still today. I'd like to see it tested from a 2" revolver. Thanks for all your hard work.

[@hrfunk]

You're welcome Frank. Looks like I'm going to have to start collecting more jugs!

[@frankhinkle5772]

@@hrfunk Carry duct tape for the ones with minor cracks, and turn them 90 degrees? Too bad there isn't a testing protocol that uses empty bottles of adult beverages. Maybe Mr. Fairbairn has something.

[@garyK.45ACP]

Your tests demonstrate WHY I still carry a version of this ammunition in my EDC revolvers. FWIW, when we were issued this ammunition in the early 70s, it was being used in a LOT of "non-plus P" rated .38 Special revolvers. By far, the most common .38 Special revolvers being carried at the time were S&W Model 10, 15 and Colt Official Police, Trooper and even military surplus .38 revolvers like "Victory Models". Off duty officers and detectives/plainclothes officers carried Colt Detective Specials or S&W J frame revolvers. I was using a Colt Trooper MKIII in .357 Magnum, but I do not recall any problems with officers using this ammo in older .38 revolvers. I even fired some (not many) in my D frame Colt Detective Special and my J frame S&W Model 40. The department provided .38 Special wadcutters for practice and that was probably 90% of the ammo that actually got fired in our revolvers. I would hesitate to use a _regular diet_ of this in something like a Colt Police Positive Special, S&W J frame or Colt Detective Special, though.

[@mikematusek4233]

Many older (pre 75) non marked +P .38 Specials were built when today's +P were standard loads.

[@NoGoBu]

I learned 3 things from your tests, thank you 😊 1. You drink an awful lot of milk 2. You wont need to water your lawn in the testing area. 3. I'll keep packing my Glock 30 .45 acp for defense Thanks again for the interesting video

[@golferpro1241]

Great gun. Be safe

[@anangryranger]

Well done sir! We old wheelgun cops of old thank you 👍 I remember that round when I hit the bricks around 1976 as THE 38spl ammo for peace officers. It was a good load then as it still is today. As I've said before, I haven't bought a factory round in decades. I cast and load my own. Of particular interest is the old Ray Thompson 156gr SWCHPGC. Being a gas check cast round it's great in 357mag, but at 38spl velocities the GC can be eliminated if you like. I cast them in a softer mix around 20:1 lead/tin. Expansion is good on feral hogs and coyotes in my woods. At 15:1 with the GC in a 357mag, it's VERY effective on said critters. Hits like a mini-howitzer!😅

[@hrfunk]

I'll bet. Thanks for the comment!

[@oldcop18]

This was our duty round when I had to use it in the early ‘80s & it dropped the suspect, saving a hostage. Our issued weapon was the S&W Model 15 and I believe it was called the FBI round back then. Thx for another informative presentation HR.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Cheers Old Cop. Any idea if the hostage was able to do good things or go on to have children?

[@oldcop18]

@@DanTheWolfman No idea but I sure hope so.

[@PassivePortfolios]

It was explained to me back when I started in 1987, that the 158 grain 38/357 bullet was matched to the S&W revolvers' rifling twist to give the best accuracy between 3-50 yards, which were the ranges of the annual qualifications and training. The last part of the qualification was 6 shots from 50 yards using a supported position and single action fire. You had to get 44 hits out of 48 shots on a human silhouette to qualify. The 50 yard line was where some people failed but the range instructors demonstrated that the S&W revolvers were plenty accurate to easily group on that target. Different weight bullets were tested for accuracy but the 158 grain bullets were found to be the most accurate from those revolvers. Ancient history now, but that's how my agency selected that so called "FBI load".

[@keithgraham9547]

I'm unconvinced "bullet technology" has really increased or improved, we just have a larger variety. I've never found anyone who explained how 9mm suddenly has "magic bullet technology." I've heard one person claim he knows what this big technical change is for 9mm, but didn't explain it. He also said this voodoo couldn't be applied to any other caliber. Not to 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 380acp, 357 SIG, or anything else. So I think the 9mm One Round To Rule Them All isn't anything except price and marketing. Nothing I've seen makes me think anything is any better than the 158 grain hp or soft point I shot in my 357 back in the 1970's.

[@Dan.50]

Agreed!

[@kenfrutiger2471]

Yes, I had a fellow tell me, years ago, that the 9mm was more powerful than the. 357 mag. So we went out shooting! He now carries a .357!

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Thanks for doing this video, Chief! I've always preferred 158s. I know the more modern bullet designs & bullet weights get alot of the talk these days, but the 158s still endure and for good reasons. 👍👍

[@iaidagger8278]

@@TheGunfighter45acp +1!!!!

[@skipboyer1889]

My 38spl loads are a handload out of the Speer #8 manual. There is an old powder made by IMR called SR4756. The 158gr load out of the barrel is supposed to generate 1250fps from a 6" barrel at maximum loading. Years ago on the S&W Forum, in the reloading section we discussed and tested these loads ad-nauseam. According to the discussions, at some point, someone ran those loads through a testing facility and they came back in the 38spl +P pressure range. Some folks thought they would immediately turn their revolver into molten metal, they were so hot. Not so. I’ve ran many of them through many 38spl revolvers to great success and fun. My M60 -13 with a 3" barrel showed over 1000fps from its 3" barrel. The maximum load from my M586 6" showed 1300fps. Amazing for the old 38spl. They should only be run in modern, steel/stainless steel revolvers though. IMHO

[@fjb4932]

skipboyer, Thanks for the memories. I have a can and about a half of that IMR SR4756 powder. Trying to nurse it for as long as i can. May have to make up a batch of Memorial rounds for my time between too old to handload and too old to shoot. A decade ago, the Editor of Handloader Magazine ( if i recall correctly ) said there were only a couple of fellows still using the IMR SR powders, so only two or three of us would be crying. He said he wouldn't publish any handloads using the SR powders, "...too easy to get them confused...". Guess he's never heard of Hodgdon Clays, Universal, and Universal Clays ! Guess i'm one of the last... PS: Sadly down to one can of IMR SR4759 as well..... Keep yor powder dry, Pilgrim. ☆

[@skipboyer1889]

@@fjb4932 Amen, Bro! I tried SR7625 and couldn’t find a place to use it over my other powders for the loads I run. SR4756 though? I bought 8lbs a long while ago and still have a pound or two! That powder is my go to for heavy 38spl loads though. Always will be! Those 158gr loads are a handful in a snubbie but man are they fun! Hahaha

[@Desperado3248]

As an aside, several departments issued 357 revolvers but caved to pressure from the suits, and issued only 38 special ammunition. That wasn’t good enough for some cities.NYPD preferred bull barrel revolver for better recoil control, and wanted to issue the Colt Lawman Mark3 357. Suits said no, so Colt made a Mark 3 called the Metropolitan Mark 3, basically a Lawman with the Official Police Mark 3 38 spl cylinder. The Mark 3 revolvers are basically S&W L frame size, not K frame, so they handle plus p load recoil well regardless of barrel diameter

[@kenfrutiger2471]

Do you mean̈ barrel length?

[@roykiefer7713]

Well. Howard, THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video! I have some experiences with the five rounds you tested. I do not want to imply - in the least - that I have gone through the effort or the analysis you devoted to this report, but I have fired hundreds of rounds of each of these ammunitions. And, fwiw, my “uniformed observations” essentially agree with your much more scientific results. A “sea story” regarding the Nyclad follows; decades ago this nylon sheathed projectile (thus, “Nyclad”) was originally marketed by S&W and was proclaimed to be superb. It wasn’t - as your tests document - and Smith sold (or maybe licensed?) the rights to Federal. Probably 30+ years ago (?), I bought a bunch of Federal’s .38/+P Nyclads at an incredibly low price and, just as you found, expansion was decent, but penetration was substandard. Thus, these .38 Special +P Nyclads became “range fodder” for quite a few years . . . and they were perfectly suited for that role. Returning to the Saint Louis (LSWCHP .38/+P) load-family, I continue to believe that they are a very viable defensive round. My favorite commercial offering in this load-family is Buffalo Bore’s catalog numbers 20A (normal barrel length) and 20B (short barrel length). These BB offerings have worked well for me for many years, they have a gas check to prevent barrel leading, and (imho) they are fundamentally “.357 magnum lites.” For the 20A round, Buffalo Bore - and their published velocities seem to be less hyped than some others - advertises the following muzzle velocities: > 1040 FPS - 2 inch barrel - Model 60 > 1059 FPS - 2.5 inch barrel - Model 66 > 1143 FPS - 3 inch barrel - Model SP-101 > 1162 FPS - 4 inch barrel - S&W Mountain Gun FWIW, I often carry a five inch barrel Smith 627 in the Colorado Rockies, loaded with Buffalo Bore LSWCHP .38 Special +Ps. Yes it’s only six rounds, and yes it’s not a magnum or a 10mm, BUT cougars and bears often attack from dense cover, at short distances, and therefore the speed of follow-up shots just might be important. Finally, Dick Fairburn is, in my opinion, a legitimate, very knowledgeable and experienced expert, AND absolutely straightforward. I respect him greatly. HR, I cannot adequately express how much I apprciate your efforts and this video.

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure Roy. Thanks for providing the inspiration.

[@roykiefer7713]

My friend, I’m hardly inspirational.

[@hrfunk]

@roykiefer7713 I disagree.

[@bobbyw9046]

Chief, great video & testing idea! I have a few comments. #1) move your Chronograph a bit farther away so it doesn't get drowned. #2) I would love to see an actual test to compare the ballistic gel to the water test for accuracy. #3) I'd also like to see this test from 2" Chief's Special since that is a more realistic carry gun. #4) test the Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P 38 special LSWCHP-GC and their standard velocity load too. Most likely, that would do even better than the 357 magnum out of a 2" revolver.

[@hrfunk]

Stay tuned. If this video does well, I'll see about doing some more testing of this sort.

[@220swift7]

Fantastic video, Chief. You did an absolutely great job explaining the process. Please consider doing more of these.

[@craigbenz4835]

I'm glad to see this Remington load back on the shelves locally.

[@whomagoose6897]

Got started with revolvers when I bought a S&W-586. Added a S&W-10. Learning the revolver itself, hip holsters, shoulder holsters, upgrades, trigger jobs, all about the where's and what fer's of hammer and trigger springs. It has been a wonderful journey with old fashioned wheel guns. One is the pelethera of ammunition types. When I started with the 1911 it was 230-grain military ball ammo only. Ball ammo in the military is called FMJ everywhere else. This video is making my revolver adventure even better.

[@danbyers8462]

Really enjoyed that video HR!! Sorry about the demonitizing

[@bobperrine6193]

My wife and I have both .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers and it would simplify the ammunition types if we switched to the 38 Special 158 grain LHP +P .

[@kbm-zw5jd]

The NYPD used Federal Nyclad 158 grain +P LSWC hollow point starting in about 1997. We used the same bullet in non hollow point before then. The round performed well. When we went to 9MM duty weapons; those who kept their revolvers kept that same ammo, including the off duty guns. The off duty ammo became 135 grain Speer Gold Dot, I believe. Better for short barrels.

[@dane5896]

My Dad worked in a special violent crimes unit (1970's). The city refused to let the department carry hollow point ammo. One of the officers loaded +P 200gr. .38 lead hard nose rounds and the unit started carrying them, after poor results from the standard department .38 ammo. They called them elephant loads. 🐘

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

@@dane5896 The late James Jim Cireillo of the NYPD, later a Customs FLETC gun range trainer did a lot of R&D with handgun calibers. His elite Stake Out detail had several lethal force events. I think he, himself toted a Browning Hi Power 9mm and a snub J frame.

[@DanTheWolfman]

​@@DavidLLambertmobileno Jim had to carry 4" model 10 & carried a 2" Colt at those times

[@boostimalaka1]

@@DavidLLambertmobile Jim Cirillo liked the M1 .30 Carbine 110 grain Softpoint and 00 Buck used in the Ithaca 12 gauge Shotgun for close range use. He carried two .38 Special revolvers. He had a hand load that was a 148 grain Wadcutter that he used the hollow base for a hollowpoint. He was often at an ME autopsy to see the results of the gunshots. The Stakeout Squad was very effective. The liberals had the unit disbanded.

[@MichaelSisley-fw3xr]

Back when Hong Kong was in Brit hands, their PD carried a 200gr lead load. It was highly effective.

[@boostimalaka1]

@@MichaelSisley-fw3xr The Webley and Enfield .38 S&W 38/200 lead load was originally designed for military use but was changed to a FMJ 172 grain bullet to comply with the Hague treaty. The British Empire went to a smaller caliber for training troops. The .455 MkII was a 262 grain bullet that was effective at close range. The British wanted to duplicate the performance and used the 200 grain bullet.

[@timothyedge6100]

Like the down to earth test. I put a Federal 38G equivalent to this load through a SW M10 4 inch into 2x milk (water) jugs with a light plywood backer. Lost the round and had a larger than .357cal hole through the plywood…. Round has much more momentum than I thought. Finally caught one with a larger 5 gallon water container that it also punched through but was recoverable from the back stop. Expansion was lop-sided based on my angle but very impressive.

[@emilcampeanu8533]

Excellent work, as usual. If I may offer an idea.. same test / same loads but this time with a 2” revolver properly rated for the loads. I think that most prevalent revolvers nowadays are the concealable 2” . Thank you

[@jeffreyandreas7514]

Very interesting and informative test HR! I was actually surprised at the performance of the old LSWHP bullet, it certainly seems to be among the best performers. I enjoy this type of video and would love to see more of these tests.

[@timothyedge6100]

Can’t wait to see this! Heard about the whole Win/Fed/Rem lead hardness scale and seen GunSam’s videos on them. Can’t wait for your’s

[@JJ_SDWR]

Glad to see the 135gr +P Gold Dot perform well. I have that in a speedloader for my 3in Model 60, but I don't carry that gun very often.

[@jc-vc7xq]

Great video as usual. Very informative. I’m about your age and started in law enforcement in the late 80’s. In the department I worked for we used that Remington load in our 4in ruger gp 100’s. In the few shootings we had in the time I was there that load performed pretty darn well.

[@RangeRoninChronicles]

Very good overall comparison. The .38 Special 158-grain LSWCHP was a very good load back in the day and still remains one of my primary carry loads from Remington today. It does well in my 2 1/2-inch SP101, the GP100, and my 4-inch 686. For .357 magnum, I carry the Sig Sauer 125-grain Elite V-Crown cartridge (rated 1450 fps) as it also does well out of all three revolvers. In the end, and as you say, shot placement still reigns supreme.

[@toddgillison7210]

Nicely done!! I really enjoyed this Chief. Have a great weekend everyone. Thanks for your hard work Chief!!

[@JoeDixon-h9c]

That is the loading I carried here in Florida working armed security...But we heard it called the Treasury Load. Later we went to a 125 Grain JHP +P+ loaded by Corbon, the agency I worked for tested the load, and it performed around what it was advertised to do. 1250 fps from a four inch barrel. Basically a low end 357.

[@CeltKnight]

If I remember correctly, the 125gr Nyclad was originally called the "Chief Special Load" and was intended for snubbies. I would assume the 4" barrel gave it enough boost in velocity to severely limit penetration. We issued the 158 gr Nyclad LSWCHP back in the day. We had a few boxes of the 125 gr loads for the brass who then carried snubbies. Anyway, great test and that was a lot of work! I also remember that article on using water in lieu of gelatin and figuring the difference. At least I think it was the same article. I didn't realize it was Dick Fairbain who wrote it. I only discovered his channel a couple months ago. Anyway, great test and that was a lot of work! Much appreciated, sir!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you!

[@easyfiveOsink]

This episode was very interesting. As a non-LEO person who carries, over-penetration is a major concern. I normally either carry either a .380 ACP, or standard velocity .38 SPL. God forbid I ever had to defend myself, but I'm not going to be able to dictate terms and conditions of that self defense. I'd want to stop the treat without endangering innocents that could be on the other side of a sheet rock wall behind the wrong doer. If out in the woods I'll go up to 9mm or .357 where over-penetration and noise mitigation (wait Mr. Bear while I get my ear protection on) are not as great a concern. I get a LEO wanting more punch and penetration than I would carry, but their daily risks and subsequent training far outweighs what I would ever likely need.

[@larryeddings3185]

Looking forward to your video. I carried that round for many years in my duty backup revolver.

[@bigshug3127]

My 4yr decided 630 was a great time to get up this morning, i keep just missing your streams. They are some sweet pieces of steel. I've been fascinated by the interiorworkings of these things and my German ancestors are getting off to it "looks more like a clock then a glock" 😂❤

[@richardwright8223]

I have always known it as the Chicago PD or FBI load but whatever the proper name I have carried it for years in my five shot S&W's. Fortunately, I have never had to use them for defense. I agree with you 100% that bullet placement is primary. Good work.

[@MrRufusjax]

You are doing a public service. If your part of Ohio is anything like where I am in Ohio, the grass can use all the water it can get. Even if it's from gallon jugs hit by bullets. Love the .38 video!

[@boilerhand1]

Good job testing. Thanks. You testers save people a lot of money and time with under performing factory loads.

[@classicgunstoday1972]

I actually did my own test video with this .38 LHP+P FBI Load, (aka Chicago Load, Dallas Load or as you refer St Louis Load) alongside the 125 gr Remington SJHP .357 Magnum and 115 ge Federal 9BPLE JHP 9mm+P+. My chrono was working that day and my 4 inch was getting slightly more velocity than factory label and it’s penetration performance with my target (using water in a pumpkin jack o lantern, water jug and wet towel) impressed me greatly. In terms of penetration it even outperformed the much lighter and faster famous 9BPLE and expanded a little better. I too have carried the St Louis load (or FBI load) in my .38 Spl revolvers for 20 years. Great video and demonstration!

[@hrfunk]

Thank you, and thanks for the comment.

[@alanwilliamson2259]

Thankyou so much... great video. My S&W 14 and my Ruger Security 6 both operate on 38 special.

[@JackMurphy-d3w]

Funny you mentioned shot placement. I am a Retired NYC police sergeant,next month I will be 87, a friend of mine going home from work was attacked by three peeps.with machetes and he shot each of them with his 38 cal. and it did not stop them. At the firing range the answer was ,whatever caliber you gave one must place their shots. Now on U Tube one can hear what Wyatt Earp wrote about winning a gun fight,in that last blink of an eye, one must place that shot. Wow

[@tmutant]

In the 80s I heard it called the Treasury load, or the FBI load. Leave it to the Feds to take credit for a local PD development.

[@sombra6153]

The “Treasury Load” was actually a 110 grain +p+ .38 Special semi jacket hollow point. The ones I remember were loaded by Federal. IRS special agents carried them when they issued revolvers. Immigration and Naturalization Service enforcement (Border Patrol and 1811s) used this round in revolvers until switching to a 110 grain .357 Magnum. It was accurate enough out of a four inch 686 for a good shooter to qualify expert out to 50 yards on the old Border Patrol/INS handgun course. The 158 load HR featured was, as he said originally loaded for the St. Louis, MO police department. It became the “FBI” load after the FBI adopted it and everyone copied the FBI…

[@ronrobertson59]

When I was on the job we were carrying S&W model 19s. We had to carry 158 gr LHP the PD issued to us. In 1987 we switched to the Sig P-220 45acp 230gr ball ammo.

[@hrfunk]

Which did you prefer?

[@jesseduncan9612]

Very interesting video. I was first sworn in 1988. My department issued the Federal Nyclad ammunition for our S&W 64 for patrol officers and Model 10s and Chief Specials for supervisors and detectives. The .38 Special Nyclad was available in 125 hollow point and 125 hollow point +P. If I remember correctly, the muzzle velocity for the 125 grain +P was 980 feet per second, and the muzzle velocity for the non +P was 880 0r 850 feet per second out of a four inch barrel. The standard velocity Nyclad was a lot cheaper than the +P ammo, and we used it for qualification and for the shorter barreled revolvers. I remember being issued a box of fifty of the +P Nyclad for my 4 inch model 64, and another box of 50 standard velocity Nyclad for my off duty model 36. My department also issued the nyclad in 9mm, a 124 grain hollow point standard velocity with a reported muzzle velocity of 1040 fps out of a 4 inch barrel. We liked this round, and if I remember correctly we had two OIS with this round and it worked as advertised. We ended up going with the 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollow point +P as it was what the FBI and Chicago PD were using and it was cheaper than the Federal Nyclad. The thing I always remember about the nyclad ammo was that many people thought it was a teflon coating and the ammunition could penetrate body armor. Back then 8 to 10 inches of penetration in ballistic gel was considered adequate, and we would laugh about officers and admin types thinking the Nyclad rounds would over penetrate or some how cause explosions.

[@sisleymichael]

Lead comes in varrying hardness. I prefer Hornady's 158gr LSW HP. It has about a 12 on the hardness scale, which is in the cowboy action shooting realm, pretty soft. I do not really like hard cast bullets much. Keep your velocities below 1000fps and you will not have a leading problem. I have a load for my sp 101 with Tight Group powder that moves it along nicely. No worries about good expansion.

[@YellowHammer26]

👍👍appreciate the video.I carry that Speer gold dot 135 gr short barrel load in my ruger sp 101 with a 3” barrel and it performs really well. And that old school 158 gr round seems to still be a solid round for a 4” barrel.

[@yukon4545]

Dick has an informative YT channel as well.

[@hrfunk]

Yes, I tried to give him full credit in this video, as well as trying to direct some viewers his way.

[@buckshot4428]

These loads typically do not expand from snubbies. They were made for the 4" guns. We had agents that carried and shot +P+ from their airweights.

[@charlesgroves3096]

Very interesting video. For a period of time we carried 38 special 158 gr. lead round nose. They did over penetrate as everyone said and we went to 125 gr. +P 38 special.

[@Pavia1525]

RIP Paul Harrell ❤

[@johndemeen5575]

I made some wadcutters, just cut the point off and filed the bullet flat. Just proud of the brass. Good enough for me. Million thanks, keeping us entertained. St.Paul,Minnesota.

[@davidhilliard1350]

With 38 and 357, I always look for semi-jacketed hollowpoints. I may be mistaken, but I figure they expand easier at slower speeds. That would be a great second test. Semi vs full jacketed projectiles.

[@OhioGunRunner]

Great video. I use this same testing technique. 9mm and 38 spl are sooo close.

[@everettsnyder1763]

Though a 4” the 158 Plus P LSWCp is very effective. Out of a snubby not so much more times than not. And either is the lighter 125’s what has been proven for decades in 2” or loess is the old full wadcutter. Cuts clean holes in a sternum and doesn’t need plus p blast to get to the goods. I started out with Wheelguns in LE and several Officers dropped BG’s with wadcutters in snubbies!

[@exothermal.sprocket]

A 2-inch barrel is no problem for most carry situations. I'd say a 3-inch barrel is also feasible in most cases, while offering a nice step up in velocity and sight radius, without any appreciable weight.

[@gerardmcquade9102]

it was very interesting that you could do a conversion like that and get reliable results

[@jay-vd6rt]

I like this kind of video ! Very interesting and I like to see revolvers. I have some of that Remington htp in 357 ,I’ve never tested it out though seems like it’s good stuff.

[@hrfunk]

I have used it for years in my older Model 19 and 66 revolvers. I think it's a pretty good load.

[@jay-vd6rt]

@@hrfunk thanks for the feedback , Have a great weekend and by the way I checked out your web page looks good.

[@TheZotman5]

More test like this would be cool. I think it would be great to add the low tech modern ammo, such as Winchester White box JHP, and the Remington and Fiocchi equivalents into the comparisons.

[@jackbeighle4866]

Interesting comparison to the different loads. I liked how you conducted the video and was impressed with the expansion and resulting weights of the different 38 loads. Thanks and I am looking forward to more vids like this comparing the different loads of various hand gun calibers.

[@tgill1963]

That was really good information! Thank you for doing the work!

[@davidbladen5667]

I was happy to see the Remington version of the 158+p lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint being tested. I have seen this load tested in both the Winchester and Federal offerings and both way over penetrated calculated gel out to about 19-20 inches. The alloy of their bulets is way too hard. They also failed to expand.

[@roderick2315]

Excellent, fun, and very informative and good testing here.

[@DonaldGow-x6y]

Outstanding video a comprehensive comparison that is quite informative, I enjoyed the water jug testing protocol its something I will try using

[@billboyden9489]

Great video, i too retired after 40 years in LE. Starting as patrol officer and retired as a chief of police. First issue was this round in an S&W model 64 with 4 inch bull barrel. Our agency trained our officers to always double tap.

[@doranmaxwell1755]

The Garmin chrono.. expensive but a game changer.

[@Robnord1]

Looking forward to it ! I carry Hornady Critical Defense 38spc +P, but am always interested in seeing how other offerings perform.

[@sombra6153]

The employer where I worked for 24 years still had some 158 grain LSWCHP +P and Federal Hydra Shok 147 grain +p+, which the FBI chose to replace the old SWC when they were also issuing the Hydra Shok 147 in 9mm. The Hydra Shok 9 and .38 Special supposed to be 950 fps. What in noted from my “internal recoil meter” was that there was no difference in felt recoil between the old LWC and the 147 +p+ when fired from a five shot J-frame snub. I’ve been casually looking for some fresh 158 LSWCHP, but it’s been as rare in my neck of the woods as Speer 135. I prefer the 158 in my two and three inch Js because loads general tend to shoot point of aim a opposed to the 110s. I still have about a half a box of 125 grain Nyclads and a half a box of Winchester Silvertip .38 Special. Used to carry those rounds in off duty/BUGs. They shot okay as I recall, but neither had a great reputation after gun writers and occasionally law enforcement agencies started keeping score. Great video and I learned a thing or two.

[@Sirgromulus]

Interesting results Howard. Not many people doing water jug ballistics testing these days. I'm sure you know that Dick Fairburn has his own YT channel ("Lock and Load") and has been fairly active as of late. Cheers !

[@hrfunk]

I do, and thanks!

[@Sirgromulus]

@hrfunk He has been making very "thought provoking" videos lately.😁

[@curtishoffmeister9399]

Thanks for a good video! My father was a St. Louis Metro PD officer back in the sixties, seventies and eighties. When I inherited his S&W revolvers and ammunition, he had the Remington 158 gr. +P hollow points you tested, plus some Winchester Silvertips 125 gr. +P ammo in his personal inventory. No Federal ammunition.

[@hrfunk]

Interesting that he didn’t have any of the Winchester ammo specifically designed for that agency. Thanks for the comment.

[@hessdefense]

The ammo and magic bullet marketing industry doesn't want us to remember wadcutters and semi-wadcutters. Some of us never forgot. 😉

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

1000s of cops, PIs, troopers, security officers etc packed .38spl +P SWC-HP 158gr. Author & cadre Massad Ayoob spoke highly of this .38spl round, 110gr +P JHP Treasury load. I used Buffalo Bore 158gr HPs 2000s. In 2020s, I loaded newer Golden Saber 125gr +P .38spl in my M&P J frame.

[@hessdefense]

@@DavidLLambertmobile Exactly! There's a lot of data out there and much of it collected by students of the craft as you've mentioned. My point was that companies are constantly trying to sell the latest and greatest based on real, calculated or supposed performance increases. I carry 148 wadcutters in my J frame. Accuracy, penetration and cross sectional "disruption" are key.

[@roderick2315]

I plan to join in tomorrow morning. Looks like some interesting info and using a handgun I am familiar with too :)

[@clintwestwood1895]

Excellent testing buddy, thanks for putting in the work

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching!

[@unclejohnbulleit2671]

A couple years ago I got interested in revolvers. Started monkeying around with S&W Model 10-7, tapered barrel. Now I've got a couple different types, and am fascinated by them. This is a very good video, THANKS! for making this one.

[@TheBdb869]

When I started in Law Enforcement in 1990, my agency carried the S&W model 64 .38 special. We used the +P 158g semi wad cutter HP as well. By 1995, we went to the Glock 22 and 23.

[@jamesdelong6401]

Good evening, HRFUNK and family. Happy Saturday to you all there. 🇺🇸. This was a very nice video. I enjoy the science behind bullets. Once I get more involved in my long-range shooting. I'd like to do my own loads. Looks fun and interesting to get into. And it'll be another skill I'll learn. If you never look at federal syntech defense, SJHP ammo. Look it up.

[@timnelson75]

Great video! Yes, do more testing!

[@RoadTraveler]

A few months ago decided on the Federal +p, LSWCHP for my primary 38 spl. loading.

[@ScandiacusPrime]

I've also conducted a water jug test with the Remington 158gr LSWCHP, and I got results practically identical to yours. It was fired from a S&W Model 19-9 with a 4.25" barrel. It's my defensive revolver round of choice. As an aside, I have heard (but not personally confirmed) that today the Winchester version of that load uses a lead alloy that is considerably harder than the Remington, and does not expand very well as a result.

[@hrfunk]

I have not heard that, and as expensive as the Winchester load is, I may never find out. Thanks for watching!

[@frankbrowning328]

Great test! The old 158 gr lead HP police load was and is a viable loading in 38 special. It's worth noting that it will also perform pretty well when fired in a 2'' barrel

[@chriss1911]

Great vid. I carry a 158 SJHP in my 28-2

[@ElainesDomain]

Chrisss. Is it a 4'' barrel"

[@chriss1911]

@@ElainesDomain naturally

[@ElainesDomain]

@@chriss1911 I think I have envy. Thanks

[@zogger5281]

Nice video, thanks! I'd like to see a few more of these. I use 38 Special +P Lead Hollow Point when I carry a .38 Special revolver. I might just try this test to see how it performs. Well now you can get a new chronometer. I suggest getting the Garmin. You don't have to "shoot thru" anything. You just place it next to you. I seen a number of these at the range and they look terrific!

[@Paladin1873]

Earlier this year I tried to locate some boxes of the St Louis load but had to settle on Winchester training defense rounds and the Remington HTP. I'm glad you made this video because now I don't have to test them.

[@DanTheWolfman]

@Paladin1873 carry the htp is better of the two softer lead. Check Paul Harrell and Gun Sam testing those.

[@Paladin1873]

@@DanTheWolfman Thanks, that was my intention.

[@AlanToon-fy4hg]

By the way, back in the day (1974) my county PD carried Model 66 Smiths with 110 grain Super Vel .357 Magnum loaded...

[@kenfrutiger2471]

I enjoyed it very much. I've always wanted to try that but never had a range where i could leave a puddle and get away with it!,

[@tomgoodwin9161]

Every time I see one of these tests about the 38 Special SWCHP 158 grains, I make th e same comment. During the "Great Miami shootout", where two FBI agents were killed and several were wounded, after law enforcement had used 9MM pistols and a 12 guage shotgun, the FBI ISSUE 38 Special, 158 grain semi wadcutter hollow point at about 1000 feet per second CLOSED THE SHOW.

[@robertseafield5810]

Great test! Back in the revolver days, the 158 gr LSWCHP +P had a stopping rate of 75% in a 4 inch barrel. I carried this load at work. A recent chrono test by me with the Federal version of this load showed 905 FPS from a 4 inch barrel and 880 FPS from a 3 inch barrel. The original Nyclad ammo was meant to reduce airborne lead on indoor ranges. It never caught on as defensive ammo except for the 9mm. I carried this load for a while as the one shot stops showed 80% rating, about the best of 9mm back then. I still have 2 boxes of the 9mm load and would use it today. Federal makes a coated bullet load for the 9mm today that looks good. Great work. Keep it up!

[@hrfunk]

Will do. Thanks for watching!

[@mikereinhardt4807]

Great video HR. I think more videos along these lines would be excellent. Thanks again...

[@frankhinkle5772]

If I remember correctly, the NYCLAD bullet was developed for the health of range officers who were exposed to lead and unburnt powders on indoor ranges. Good idea, but not a terribly effective round on the street.

[@danoneill2846]

Matts Bullets makes med hard bullets for hand loaders . The hardness has a lot to do with it . Many lead bullets are too hard to expand .

[@MarvinTurner-oc4ml]

HR, I really do enjoy this sort of testing and would very much like to see more of it. I'd love to see a comparison of 9MM JHP and .40 S&W JHP loads of similar weight / type. Maybe you should consider one of the Garmin Xero C1 chronographs - they are quite small and seem very accurate. Unfortunately, they are also quite expensive, but I still intend to purchase one.

[@hambonefxd3653]

Great video, very informative. Thank you Sir

[@hrfunk]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching.

[@msportster6791]

Thank you for this video! I’ll be carrying the Golden Saber .357 out of my older 2.5 inch model 19 or 66 for sure whenever I feel revolverish…😀

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

125gr .357magnum JHPs were used for 20-30yr by some. Very few failures, problems with duty use, lethal force.

[@thomastoups3451]

Your video proved the old observation that heavy bullets at slower velocities have much to recommend them. That's also true in other cartridges, such as the .44 Special.

[@adrianotero7963]

My house gun in a 4 inch double action model 64 and and use Remington 158 grain +p LHP The specific box designation is R38S12.....they are no longer in production seems like Remington changed the composition of the lead and made them less soft..thus effecting expansion......and changed the box number as well......they are not optimal for short barrel revolvers....but from my research work exceptional in anything over 3 inch....

[@PassivePortfolios]

This is unbeatable performance, which this loading is famous for. I would not hesitate to use this load for medium game hunting. The Nyclad was designed for 2" revolvers so it probably gained too much velocity from the 4" barrel and over expanded and under penetrated. Thanks for the test !