#48 Overlooked High Horology Bargains

Often collectors pursue a limited number of watch brands associated with high horology but overlook others that are both equally interesting horologically and yet command far lower prices. This video explores some of these brands and what to look for to optimize a collection while minimizing expenses. WatchArtSci covers the general topics of high horology watches, watch movements, purchasing watches, judging the value of a watch and its movements and understanding the history of different watches and watch brands that collectors cherish.

[@chr1s60]

Really nice video, Bill. You really gave some good examples of worthwhile watches. It's always good for people to hear about some overlooked brands that are doing some good things. I think it's unfortunate how much coverage brands like Rolex or Patek get when there are tons of good watches out there that deserve to be recognized, but never seem to make it anywhere even close to mainstream. Anyone can do a quick internet search and find the top collectors watches and brands, but it takes a truly dedicated collector to dig deeper and find the hidden gems.

[@watchartsci]

Well put chr1s60! What fun is collection without digging for gold! I like both Rolex and Patek, but there's far more to see than just what's on the surface of high horology. Kindest regards, Bill

[@paulbrady8107]

Another great video and beautiful content and at the same price as a Tag,jaw dropping thanks sir,keep her lit.

[@watchartsci]

Paul Brady Hey 👋 Paul! Thanks man! It's really amazing what is available once you look 👀. Kindest regards Bill

[@nmcduff4891]

I loved the Ulysse Nardine company 'marking their own homework' and giving themselves a certificate of excellence. Dove Soap did it in the early 1900's. There is no perfect soap, or perfect watch, so a random man in a lab coat declared Dove to be 99.44% pure. Some scores are hard to beat. Best wishes Mac

[@watchartsci]

UN did that? They must think they're Patek NMCDuff! Take care, Bill

[@tc11228]

Bill, I enjoyed your video. Kaz from FB group is an avid Montblanc collector. Keep up the great work.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Tom, thanks man. Kaz has a very nice Nicolas Rieussec and I think that his watch was once a "Watch of the Week." Kindest regards, Bill

[@cedarcanoe]

I appreciate you showing a selection of luxury bargains with excellent specifications and from reputed watch brands. It is refreshing and eye-opening to see that there are many excellent watches that didn’t make in the popularity index and therefor haven’t received the love from most watch enthousiasts. If I may, I think there is a good reason for that; they missed the bell on at least one point. Either design, size, optics, too cluttered, not appealing to most of us. Whatever. Very nice, overlooked but with a reason in my opinion.

[@watchartsci]

Erik, what they missed was the common herd's taste. At least, in the U.S., it may be appropriate to note "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." H.L.Mencken. Take care, Bill

[@davidofglenbrook4487]

Bill, you totally nailed it on the Blancpain (ditto on UN and it’s past over-reliance on E.T.A.). Blancpains makes great movements in terms of horological engineering but their dress watches (particularly the Villeret) have always been a little too dainty (in terms of design and size) for me. Every time I compare them to a competitive Lange, JLC or G.O., I always went with the latter brands (I own or have owned all 3).

[@watchartsci]

Hi David, I don't own any Blancpains, but the Villeret reminded me of my Patek Philippe Calatrava...very formal dress watch, but you're right...a tad too dainty in size. I do like the design though. Kindest regards, Bill

[@ratnamaravind]

Love your videos- so unpretentious!

[@watchartsci]

Have no fear Aravind... I'm trying to be more pretentious! Don't quite have the knack yet. Take care, Bill

[@richarda9961]

Bill your videos are wonderful

[@watchartsci]

Hey Richard, thanks man! Cheers, Bill

[@j.r.regenold9094]

Really enjoyed this show. I like looking for different watches ... you never get a "deal" on a used Rolex or Patek, but great watches are out there for great prices. Still a big fan of GO .. and some of the high=end Seiko offerings. Some Credor watches are out there at big discounts.

[@watchartsci]

Hey JR! Thinking of you and Rhea--the more you know, the more likely you are to find some real gems in your searches! And you two are real gem searchers! You can only find the rarest if you know what to look for. Kindest regards, Bill

[@ikke12345]

Love your videos. Just got via chrono24 a parmigiani Fleurier pfc128-1200600-ha3141 kalpagraphe in white gold from 2017 in unworn condition and service in march 2019 at parmigiani for about 40% of the original list price. A magnificent watch

[@watchartsci]

Wow Vincent, you did get a good watch-in fact a great one and in white gold! It will be a watch you can enjoy forever! I never appreciated white gold until I got a white gold H. Moser, and now I'm looking at another one in white gold! Kindest regards

[@samehh.b.alexandria9350]

very informative as usual! thank you Bill. what about IWC in this level of comparison? Another brand that started recently to develop their own movements, frederique constant! i think they have very challenging prices, especially the pre-owned. thanks again for the great video. my best regards, Sameh.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Sameh, I've always liked IWC, but they always disappointed at some level. Take their iconic Portuguese Chrono-Rattrapante; its base is an ETA 7750. Their entire Portofino line is either ETA or Sellita based movements. True, they do have their own movements, but it's cheaper for them to crank out ETA/Sellita-based watches and charge high-horology prices for them. Take a look at watchbase.com/iwc -- full of IWC watches, but only a few have true IWC in-house movements. As for 'Freddys' they do have some in-house movements, but when you look closely they have as many ETA/Selitta movements as Raymond Weils! To top that off, they use plating on their gold. Some of their watches, like Frederique Constant Manufacture Worldtimer in steel is excellent and it is well priced. So, if you're looking for an IWC or Frederique Constant, you have to be very careful not to get tripped up on the ones with cheap movements or (as the case is with Frederique Constant) gold plating. Kindest regards, Bill

[@salvadorgarcia168]

Bill if you like quirky cool watches you should check out "The MIH Watch". This watch is an Annual Calendar, Chronograph designed by Paul Gerber, as a fundraising project, for the the Musee International D'Horologerie. The watch retails for $5,600. The watch is unfortunately almost never available on the used market. Additionally, The IWC davinci family represents some of the best value In the complicated vintage segment IMO. Ref 3750 (Perpetual Calendar, Chronograph,) trades at around $8,500 Ref 3752 (Perpetual Calendar, Chronograph, Tourbillon), trades at around $29,000 Ref 3770 (Perpetual Calendar Chronograph minute repeater), trades at around $50,000 Good video keep up the great work!

[@watchartsci]

Hi Salvador! Thanks for that info! The MIH reminds me of the early Habring2s before they had their own in-house movement and were using ETAs that were actually worked over to the point where they ceased to be ETAs. MIH has done the same with the ETA 7750, producing what could easily be mistaken for a Nomos--in a good way! As for the IWC Da Vinci, it's that same old Devil and Angel character of IWC. The Da Vinci 36 ticks on a Sellita SW 300-1, and the Da Vinci Perpetual Edition Kurt Klaus runs on an ETA 7750 and sells for €20,000! Their Grande Complication 3770 Platinum sells for €189,000 (!!!) and also has the ETA 7750 base. I wish IWC would take all of their non-manufactured movements and put them on a big ship and sail away. Then take all of the (wonderful) in-house movement watches and sell them everywhere. (...then sink the ship...) Cheers, Bill

[@salvadorgarcia168]

Haha love the eta rant. IWC's retail prices are very optimistic. lol However, If you have the time you should check out a watch they produced called "II Destriero Scafusia" which translates to "the warhorse of Schaffhausen" It was produced in 1993 using a 7750 and at the time of production was the most complicated wristwatch ever produced. It might change your perception of ETA's. BTW I believe that piece retailed at the time for about 350k lol. Interestingly enough Habring helped kurt klaus produce "the warhorse of Schaffhausen"

[@watchartsci]

Hey Salvador, thanks for that additional information. I know that ETA has produced some very good movements; however, their production is geared to mass, inexpensive movements and ébauches. The fact that IWC puts them in their watches and provides no significant discount (among other 'high horology' watch makers) gives me pause. I know that Richard Habring worked for IWC for a while; so I would not be surprised if he helped them make their war horse. Kindest regards, Bill

[@briandebe7187]

Excellent content as always Bill. I enjoy when you bring up brands that are often overlooked. I agree with you that there are some great watches that can be had for a fraction of the price in the preowned market. Please continue to explore new brands it keeps the hobby interesting. Thanks again for doing a great job. Very educational.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Brian, thanks, man. Here is something that's bound to shake up the mechanical industry that up until now has been overlooked -- quillandpad.com/2017/02/20/exclusive-the-agengraphe-by-agenhor-the-most-significant-chronograph-since-since-the-invention-of-the-chronograph/ . Agenhor is, in my option, the greatest contemporary movement-maker bar none. The AgenGraphe movement will shake things up as any watch company that wants to soar to new horological heights will include it in their line. I have no idea how it will all play out, but I'd bet in some upcoming Grand Prix d'Horlogerie de Genève, you are going to find the AgenGraphe in some watches--check the entries in the Ladies Hi-Mech in 2017 or 2018. Agenhor has been around 20 years and their founder, Jean-Marc Wiederrecht, won the Best Watchmaker prize at the Grand Prix d'Horlogerie de Genève 10 years ago. However, most collectors, have never heard of either Wiederrecht nor Agenhor. Overlooked indeed! Kindest regards, Bill

[@Stallionfragrancereviews]

very informative, thanks :)

[@watchartsci]

Hey Matt! Thanks man! Let me know if there's anything else you'd like seen covered. Kindest regards, Bill

[@galja6889]

Bill I agree with you there are absolutely fantastic bargains on the secondary market. If you have some extra cash it is very easy to get carried away. For example I purchased an Ulysses Nardin Astralabium Galieo ,fabulous watch bought it right but almost never wear blancpain perpetual calendar gold bracelet same amount of use. Concord which h often uses Zenith movements woman's platinum perpetual calender ,same amount of use. So make sure no matter how great a bargain make sure you like it enough to wear. There is a Dewitt sequential chronograph for not much money that with great reluctance I am Not going to buy it.

[@watchartsci]

Galja that is a great point you make!!! Any watch you buy, whether it's an AD or a little office on 47th Street-buy only watches you will wear. I like my watches so much that I'm wearing one now (FP Journe Chronomètre Souverain), and have two on my desktop, Parmigiani Fleurier Kalpa Grande XL and my Bovet 1822 19Thirty Fleurier, that I can look at all day! Kindest regards, Bill

[@jaysikes4256]

17:32 UN bought the calibre 137 from Ebel, The UN 150 was based on the Ebel 137 which was developed exclusively for Ebel by Lemania. Ebel called the 137 in-house when they had it, and I suppose the accuracy of that claim depends upon ones definition of "in-House". I understand it is some gray area, but UN didn't exactly build the movement from the ground up. Nonetheless it is a great movement.

[@watchartsci]

Whoaaa, Jay, that is great information with the full family tree! Thank you, man! Lemania, while part of the Swatch family, and probably under ETA, does have an interesting history. The Ebel chronograph using the same movement as the UN can be fetched at great prices. Check this out: www.chrono24.com/ebel/1911-btr-mens-automatic-watch--id4928611.htm Kindest regards, Bill

[@richarda9961]

Thanks bill

[@watchartsci]

My pleasure Richard! Sorry it took so long to get back to you! Cheers, Bill

[@marky9223]

Bill, what do think of the Vacheron Constantin Royal Eagle? I had never seen one until I was looking at Crown & Caliber the other day and thought it looked really cool and then I saw the price is only $7,800. I started reading more about them and found out that they were released for a "younger" buyer, which I'm guessing means someone with less financial resources. The movement is an in-house VC but the caseback is solid so I'm thinking this one probably doesn't have the type of finishing and decoration normally associated with VC? I added it to the "maybe" category for the 40th bday watch.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Speedy, I like it. It's got a big golden rotor on the movement and is a great example of a 'gentleman's sports watch' that could easily be worn in executive board rooms. The movement is based on a Frédéric Piguet 1185 (VC cal. 1137)-my gold VC 1972 has a Frédéric Piguet-based movement too-very reliable; so it's got a nice heritage in the calibre. Here's a decent deal I found: www.chrono24.com/vacheronconstantin/royal-eagle-chronograph-big-date-silver-dial-black-arabic--id10384035.htm ... if you're interested, you can offer $5,900 to see what happens. Good hunting! Bill

[@marky9223]

@@watchartsci Thanks so much for taking the time to provide this information. I was really glad to hear that it has a reliable movement with heritage, as I think it's a really interesting watch and I'd say it's number one on my list at the moment. I still have a little over a year before I turn 40, and since I bought the Air King in April of this year, i think if I bought another watch right now, I'd also have to factor in the cost of my divorce! haha. If I could pick one up for around $6k that'd be great.

[@nikigulin6611]

Dear sir, have you ever considered a Breguet? What do. you think about their Classic Line or the Marine Line? I think they offer a hell lot of quality for the Price. How is about their inhouse movements, from the horological view? Best regards from Frankfurt, Germany.......

[@watchartsci]

Hi Niki, sorry for such a late reply (been at work)--it's about 10pm in Frankfurt. Breguet is a tough one. Let me say at the outset, I really want to like Breguet. It has a wonderful history and I like the looks of it. My problem with the Breguet movements (at least in the XX and XXI) is the incorporation of Lemania movement or part of a movement. The Breguet caliber 582 is based on a Lemania caliber 1350. The newer Breguet XXI has a Manufacture Breguet/Nouvelle Lemania 584Q. Why the combination? Is the movement part Lemania and part Brequet or what? Also, I'm more interested in a non-sport watch Breguet, and I'd go for a Rolex or Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean with a co-axial escapement before I'd go for the XX or XXI--just because I trust their movement more. See if you can find anything else about their movements and what role the Lemania plays. Kindest regards, Bill

[@russellalfonso2962]

quick question: I have a vintage Ullysse Nardin chonometer dress watch: is it likey that the movement is in house, or ETA?

[@watchartsci]

I'm not much into vintage watches Russell. Depending on how vintage it is, it could be either. Take care, Bill

[@Daveyboyz1978]

I have to agree that the value for money lays in watches that dropped like a stone when originally bought that can then be picked up reasonably... but there are drawbacks to this approach to. The unheard of brands (amongst the public) like the Armin Stron are much more difficult to move on than the blue chip names, and when you cannot sell something easily its hard to achieve a good price. As such they are unlikely to accrue value in the same way those in demand watches do. Anything is a good investment though if you can buy it cheap enough, and you stand a chance with some of these obscure names.Still if taken on their own merits, with no plans to resell or trade in later you made a good case... I can certainly see the attraction of some of those you picked and its nice to own something that nobody else is wearing ^^ good video as always.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Daveyboyz, it helps if you don't have any sense of selling what you have. (Like me!) Even with Rolexes and Pateks, if you do a lot of trading with merchants (not fellow collectors), you're going to lose about 25% per transaction, and that can add up pretty quickly. So I'd rather be "stuck" with a watch I cannot move than have several 'moves' losing money on each transaction. I've only traded in one watch, and while I lost about 30%, all of the others I have lost nothing because I don't trade them. On my FP Journes, I'd make money (possibly a substantial amount!), but I'd never even consider trading or selling either. I love my watches and only buy the ones I want to keep. Cheers, Bill

[@Daveyboyz1978]

Yeah, quick flips are rarely sensible but longer term moves (a few years minimum) can recoup value on some of the more saleable watches. I have bought and sold/traded approx 20+ watches, made small losses on 2 or 3 but mainly broke even or proffited. I feel lucky because without such horse trading I never could have afforded to wear all the watches I have tried... I understand this is not everyones approach though. It is rarely my intention these days but if an upgrade comes along its possible to buy it and sell something lesser (normally privately) and cover most of the cost.

[@watchartsci]

Daveyboyz That makes sense 😎

[@richarda9961]

Frédéric Piguet movements video would be much appreciated

[@watchartsci]

Hi Richard, throughout the videos there's a lot about Frédéric Piguet. As you know, they became folded into Blancpain (and in fact Piguet owned Blancpain at one time). Take a look at this video on Blancpain: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mH_QfKSsibykjKs There are a couple of other Blancpain videos I did that have material on Frédéric Piguet you can find with a quick search of WatchArtSci videos. However, you did give me an idea. How about a video on that looks at the roots of the major ETA movements-Unitas, Valjoux, etc.? Kindest regards, Bill

[@nemo9936]

Adriatica ?

[@watchartsci]

Are Adriatica overlooked bargains? I really don't know that much about them. All of their pricing is in Russian rubles, and there's some kind of trade restrictions between the West and Russia. I have one Russian watch and it's pretty rough, but like I said, I just don't know Adriatica. If you'd like to elaborate, I'd be interested. Kindest regards, Bill

[@nemo9936]

seems to be a swiss brand that caters to eastern block countries.Dad has a few of the old ones but new ones on their site are beautiful. thought you might know more . oh well .ill check for more info. thanks

[@watchartsci]

Thanks Nemo! Cheers, Bill

[@idid1866]

Every time you send your watch in for service, you lose money as well...many people forget about that!

[@watchartsci]

Indeed, iDid. FP Journe reminded me in a big way last year ... twice!! Cheers, Bill

[@JayandSarah]

cost of ownership, like having a car. which by the way is like a watch, not an investment

[@GSXRTino1]

Ulysse Nardin gold case with steel screws. I don't like that. Use gold screws, don't be cheep.

[@watchartsci]

Martin, I know of no company that uses gold screws. Gold chatons, to honor bygone days when they were used as cushions for jeweled pivots, but really unnecessary today. Check out this article on very expensive screws; www.ablogtowatch.com/why-movement-screws-german-lang-heyne-cost-100-euros-each/ 100€ each! Cheers, Bill