#98 Watch Rankings: Where Does Your Watch Rank?

[@manuel_winde]

Surprised to see Czapek the same level as Tudor and Tag

[@watchartsci]

Some Czapeks do not have their own movements, but they're moving up. Keep in mind, Fat-Sam, that these have to be viewed stretched over more than a single tier. Take care, and be safe, Bill😷

[@ericpye7449]

Greetings Bill from the UK. You're a brave man to put up this argument starter! The problem with it must be that a chart like this can't really have any relevance as a company can produce different models falling into different categories, and the company itself may well yo yo. The only way to do it is to disregard the company and categorise each model, (current and past). We'll do it together, if we start now we should be done by 2040. Really enjoy your unique style - keep up the good work. Regards - Eric

[@watchartsci]

Hey Eric, I've got nothing more interesting between now and 2040 to do...so I'm in! You're right about a range within a brand. That's one reason I mentioned JeanRichard in the Standard Horology category. They have one in-house movement but the great majority are ETA and Sellita movements. TAG Heuer has the whole range topping off at their Aiguille d'Or winning watch at $150,000. So what I (and apparently others) have attempted is to take a snapshot of the most popular and produced models and use them as centering point. I can envision a scatterplot and an algorithm to generate it and yet another chance for me to play with Lambda calculus within an Internet language like PHP and data mining with R. Tons of fun, but it would leave me with little time to un-screwup my videos and play with my watches. Kindest regards, Bill

[@eriklavina2828]

I don't think richard mille has exceptional finishing, i feel like they mostly rely on the novelty of their case materials and their marketing.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Eg Lavina...most likely that ranking was from Watch-Rankings.com ... and I've heard arguments on both sides. In part, it's due to the fact that a lot of people just don't like the looks of Mille watches, but the horology probably tipped the scales. Kindest regards, Bill

[@closer71]

Thank you.

[@LM15xxx]

"Exceptional horology" would love to sell more like Patek (high horology) but cannot penetrate such market so sell on producing less, High entry $$$ & exclusivity. IMO I don't see much difference other than price.... because let's be honest; there's only so much that can be done to a timepiece after high horology. Biggest difference would be between strong & high horology. Standard horology are case makers & dial designers mostly. Great share Bill. 😎👍

[@watchartsci]

Hey Purple Haze, the whole ranking process is a quagmire of exceptions and reputations, and the borders between ranks are gradients rather than lines. Further, watch companies like TAG Heuer have watches that run the gamut from Standard to Exceptional Horology - the $150,000 TAG Heuer that won the Aiguille d'Or is certainly exceptional. If I compare my Vacheron Constantin Historiques American 1921 with my FP Journe Chronomètre Souverain (High and Exceptional) I look at two watches I love! The small details such as the fit of the movement to the case, the 18k gold plates in the FPJ and details in the FPJ give it an edge. Both have to-die-for-dials and collectors love them both. However, any knowledgable collector will choose the FPJ: why? Kindest regards, Bill

[@algorithm007ify]

I never understood the allure of Patek. Sure they are finished well. However, from my understanding, they didn't even have their own chronograph movement until fairly recently. Surely a "holy trinity" watch maker should have had their own in-house chrono a long long time ago: www.europastar.com/magazine/highlights/1000989305-patek-philippe-s-first-chronograph-movement.html Moreover, I am not impressed with the complications (for the money) nor the rate of innovation.

[@hendritjahjono2112]

Purplehaze5995 j

[@Litmanovich]

what's Hublot doing in High Horology? why isn't Zenith in High Horology? thank you.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Andrei, Hublot was problematic, but other rankings have them in HH and since I don't know that much about the brand I left them there. Zenith is aimed more at the Sports Market and makes excellent movements; but their watches don't seem to be targeted at High Horology. Kindest regards, Bill

[@Litmanovich]

thank you

[@algorithm007ify]

Bill, I already posted a link above concerning the Zenith Academy Christophe Colomb. You are right, Zenith are not well known for their haute horology, however, they darn well should be. IMO, the quality and attention to detail found in this watch surpasses offerings of a similar price from the Holy trinity and JLC. A Fusee gyroscopic tourbillion with amazing art work in the back. I never get sick of this watch.

[@watchartsci]

Algorithim, you are absolutely right, a fuseé gyroscopic is very high horology. Among the watches in Strong Horology, you can find individual models that rise into the next tier, and Zenith is one such watch. Kindest regards, Bill

[@northpole6060]

I am wearing Casio f- 91w , and enjoying every bit of your videos

[@watchartsci]

North Pole, that's the highest praise I could possibly receive, plus the fact that the Casio f-91w keeps better time that the high priced mechanical watches that I collect! Glad you enjoy the videos. Kindest regards, Bill

[@kidsfriends8269]

The F-91W is an important watch in the big scheme of things.

[@dcthomson12345]

What wonderful conversation starter ! I suspect the many may make an argument for Grand Seiko in the "High Horology" group. Plenty of specialist, hand-crafted components and finishing there. They often get "bumped" because they are not European. What are your thoughts ?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Darren, I happen to be a big fan of Grand Seko Hi-Beat in terms of technology. If they use the kind of finishing expected of high horology watches, I'd certainly include them. Kindest regards, Bill

[@dcthomson12345]

WatchArtSci Yes, I’m agree, I think it’s “borderline” today. If I think about something like their “Snowflake” model, the dial alone could be considered “high horological”. The movement is hand finished with Nice Geneva striping and beveled edges but it’s not quite as elaborate as, say, a Patek.

[@maddenhuxley2390]

i know Im kind of randomly asking but does anyone know a good site to stream newly released movies online ?

[@josevasquez1781]

Great video Bill, I love to look at the various charts on many of your Chanel and on this Watch Ranks you have Grand Seiko listed Strong Horology which I agree accept on my new SLGH003 with the 9SA5 movement. That movement has put GS on the map of High Horology as well fully in-house to boot.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Jose, the rankings are for us, the collectors; not the manufacturers! So we can call the shots! Take care, Bill

[@josevasquez1781]

@@watchartsci gotcha, I also have my list and praise Ball Watch Co for releasing their first in-house RMM7309 Chronometer movement but it will still be a while before upgrading them to say high Horology.

[@feardabeard7635]

I put on a Seiko Divers and have for the last 20 years and I cant break this beast it I wanted.. Never looses time.. 007 baby.. Love your channel Sir

[@watchartsci]

Hey Steven, thanks man. Seikos are not afraid to do interesting things with watch movements. Double-oh Seven indeed! Cheers, bill

[@JO11190]

Would love an updated list :)

[@watchartsci]

Good idea 💡 Az... I will see what I can do. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@vincentjack735]

Wow. As a somewhat novice newbie. I didn't realize there were so many great brands of high caliber.. Informative vid

[@watchartsci]

Hey Vincent, thanks man. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@thegosudriver]

Good to see Girard Perregaux placed accurately. Their movements are phenomenal and have powered some Haute Horology brands. I do wonder why they're still slept on.

[@watchartsci]

Glad you like its placement Driver. Take care, Bill

[@wenqiweiabcd]

I keep trying to find standard (not so grand) Seiko. Would you say it’s a grade below standard horology?

[@watchartsci]

Actually, Seiko would fall under "Strong Horology" Mr. Wen ... they make their own movements, and very good ones. Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@Rkhoi]

Ulysse nardin is ETA too, I don't agree with perrelet being in standard horology, strong yes. Better quality than many of the companies on the strong horology list you have . they own soprod movements I believe, website you mentioned has them in "strong horology" as well

[@watchartsci]

Hi R. Khoi. Ulysse Nardin is a mix ... some their own mfg; some ETA. Perrelet was put in Standard Horology by the 'Watch Ratings' site. Why would it be strong horology? Take care, Bill

[@jaysikes4256]

I realise due to company secrets it is impossible, but it would be interesting to see a chart that shows where Swiss watch companies lay on the spectrum of SWISS MADE from 60% to 100%.

[@watchartsci]

That would be interesting indeed! But like a politician's tax returns, if they're hidden, they can be difficult to retrieve. Take care, Bill

[@krumovevgeni]

There is a lot to discuss about this list but overall I would tend to agree. 1. Wearing my new Baume et Mercier Baumatic Blue 5 Days Chronometer - a standard horology according to the chart however for me it is out there with the Omegas and etc. especially with its mechanism inside 2. weird watch company that I saw on the bottom of the chart Carl Suchy & Söhne - a brand that I kinda liked at one point until i saw the prices they are asking... 3. Universal Geneve unfortunately would have been upper in the ranking with its history and significance, or Enicar with its Sherpa and etc. but history that has been forgotten. 4. One manufacturer that I did not see and it should be up there in the ranks is Greubel Forsey

[@watchartsci]

Evgeni! How you doing? I'd like to see that Baumatic Blue 5 Days Chronometer! In some respects, Baume et Mercier is like Maurice Lacroix. Both make excellent watches, but are just getting started on making their own movements. Also, they both have watches with the Jaquet 736 movement (that I collect). I have the ML version, and the B&M version is in solid gold and difficult to find...but I'm always on the look-out for it. As for the rankings, they're more of an aid to collectors who are avoiding getting burned by an expensive watch with a cheap movement ... such as IWC and Brietling often (too often!) pull off. With the backing of Richemont, Baume et Mercier will keep making interesting watches with their own movement but not be crazy expensive. As for Greubel Forsey! Yes, great point and clearly part of the Exceptional Horology (that I cannot afford!). Take care and be safe, Bill😷.

[@dchekaldin]

Thank you for an excellent video. What category do you think Panerai falls under? Also, does Hublot really below in High Horology category. One of my family members bought a pretty expensive example by Hublot only to encounter constant repairs and flaws.

[@watchartsci]

Panerai and Hublot both seem to fall in a questionable category. Panerai never has seemed to be a real horological watchmaker, but one with great designs and cheap movements, and Hublot has been raked over the coals so many times that it's difficult to know why it has won so many GPHG awards... people tend to overlook that Dmitri. Take care, Bill

[@vincentchampion8986]

Are you familiar with D. Dornbluth and Sohn and if so where would they fall?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Vincent, they're pretty small, but they're very strong horology. Noted for their engraving and finishing. Take care, Bill

[@danny.norato]

Hi Bill, Why is Seiko not in these lists? they created the first automatic chronograph going out to the market -JDM-for sale in February 1969 which means that they had it ready in 1968 way before Zenith and Heuer-Breitling-Hamilton-Dupraz project 99 ; they have won GPHG awards, they have added lots to the horology through history, not to mention that they make their own movements and have different markets targets with Credor. Thanks again.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Danny they were all grouped in 'Strong Horology' and for the time-being that sounds good to me. To be honest with you, I have a lot more to learn about Seiko before I add them. Kindest regards, Bill

[@fkurcik]

I didn't realize that Bell and Ross don't make their own movements. They ask top dollar for their watches anyway.

[@watchartsci]

Frantisek that point has been my pet peeve with all brands of watches with cheap movement and high prices. As far as dials go, Bell & Ross is tops in my book; love those aircraft instrument panel looks. They're not as bad as some, and one I like, the BR 03-90 Power Reserve for €3,500 isn't as terrible as some running on an ETA 2897. That's another reason that a ranking system can be helpful. Kindest regards, Bill

[@artl52]

Interesting that you put Habring in the strong category rather than the high category.

[@watchartsci]

Art, Habring2 went back and forth between Strong and High. I settled on Strong because lack of finishing decorations. However, it's Exceptional Horology with the hand-made care in the watches; especially the movements in the Felix/Erwin models. In part their outstanding quality is measured by the fact that there are no used Felix watches on the market and their production is only a few every year by a world class watchmaker in Richard Habring. I suppose it belongs between Strong and Exceptional, but somehow the decorations in High Horology seem to put it awkwardly there. So I'll say Exceptional Horology with Strong Horology casing. Groan... Kindest regards, bill

[@artl52]

WatchArtSci you raise an interesting point , I. E. A watch itself could have multiple grades. As you described. Not sure how to deal with that 🙀

[@jcordic]

Fantastic, thank you!

[@watchartsci]

Hey John, thanks man! Take care, Bill

[@MehediHasan-wf6zp]

Bill sanders is the Bernie Sanders of watch collectors. He has the top 1/10th of the 1% of the most beautiful watches!!

[@watchartsci]

Not even close Mehedi, but thanks anyway! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@knobexploitmusicelectronic9218]

Maybe you should set the exposure to "fixed" to prevent exposure adjustment when you move your hand in front of the lens. Your image looks like a disco light. Cheers

[@watchartsci]

Hi Knobexploit, they changed the software OS in my iPhone and screwed everything up. I re-set the "lightening bolt" icon to off, and I'll see if that works. That and the video-audio synch got screwed up as well. Maybe I should break down and get a camera dedicated to video. Any suggestions? Kindest regards, Bill

[@clausstreh6801]

Interesting. Why is it, Eterna is always left out? It used to be an innovative brand. I have two Eterna’s which I enjoy very much. Where would you place that brand?

[@watchartsci]

Good question Claus. I'd place them in Strong Horology. What do you think? Take care, Bill

[@clausstreh6801]

@@watchartsci I had the same thought. I am not happy about what the brand has become in recent years. But, in my opinion, they used to make very nice watches. I have a Kontiki chronograph and a Madison 3-hand. Both around 10 years old.

[@tangchiprathomo819]

You, Sir, are an exceptional watch reviewer. But, I agree with previous comment on Grand Seiko should be high horology.

[@watchartsci]

Tangchi, I agree. Grand Seiko certainly has enough watches that fit the "fine watchmaking" criteria of the FIHH. They're not the only one left out! Kindest regards, Bill

[@josevasquez1781]

The 9SA5 in my new GS SLGH003 is high Horology indeed especially at 10K not that price is always a deciding factor but the full balance bridge and first ever dual pulse escapement has put other watch manufactory on notice. I mean over nine years of R&D is dedication we all appreciate.

[@willworkfordoge]

why would you classify hublot as high horology???? Hublot and Breguet/Patek should never be put in the same category. Other than that decent list.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Jdekayable! First of all, Hublot has won 5 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards, including one for Classic Fusion Cathedral Tourbillon Minute Repeater in 2014- the kind of watch you find in Exceptional Horology. Breguet (I know) is owned by Swatch, but it has won 6 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prizes and has been moving toward more sophisticated movements within Breguet having nothing to do with ETA and all that it implies. Of these three watches, the only one I own is a Patek Philippe (which has won 7 GPHG awards); so I'm not talking from a position of sticking up for watches I happen to own. If you turn away from the stupid stereotypes and prejudices that some watch collectors have woven into urban rumors that have no truth value, you'd be surprised what you'll find. I know (probably better than anyone) that the list has flaws, and I've been working to reduce those flaws, and listen to anyone (and everyone) who shows concretely why a watch should be in a different ranking. Kindest regards, Bill

[@881410]

Exactly what I was thinking Hublot = Patek ...I think not. And while pretty, most Franck Mullers have ETA movements, and can NOT be compared with Patek. At all. Really. The Aquanaut is the cheapest Patek - I have one - and is a work of high artistry. Yes, that movement is simple enough, but the finishing of EVERY component in the watch is AMAZING. And BTW, it lost 1/2 second in the last 72 hours.

[@biggiebeil5118]

Great to mention Jean richard, They have thier own yes but it based on Girard Perraguex !! (sorry for miss spelling), its dead brand but same time great quality, if they have abetter marketing plans ahead will be back strong and compete with strong brands, Alpina is quite the same!! They also have Alpina pilot / world timer, in house movement, based on Frederic constant! cheers

[@watchartsci]

Hi Biggie! My brother has an Alpina ... great watch. Take care, Bill

[@biggiebeil5118]

@@watchartsci Bill, would you mind update the list from your point of view ? Or I would like to know your thought basically about Carl F bucherer, they use some ETA based & In house. think standard where it set or you thing higher ? cheers

[@Rsolanzo]

Thanks for this video! I was wondering what are some affordable watches in the Exceptional Horology classification? Talking about

[@watchartsci]

You'll find them in H. Mosers, produced after 2000, Rainer. Just hunt around and there are some outstanding buys. Let's get our shots and go outside, Bill😎

[@johnwheat5199]

Bill, I have only recently discovered your channel, but have already felt compelled to pass comment a couple of times. I don't want to take issue, at least not too much, with much of your content, it's most compassionate. I have browsed most of your past videos, forgive me if I have missed something, but I haven't seen anything on Piaget. In particular, The Altiplano Ultimate concept, & Altiplano 1208P. I get everything you say on horological merit and standings, as previously stated, I don't always agree with you, but like I said before, that's partly what drives us on in the field. Personally, if I was to commission a completely unique piece for myself, I would choose between only two makers, Jaeger-Lecultre or Piaget to complete the task. Why? Because both possess a level of unrivalled ingenuity and technical sophistication that despite the buzzers and bells, not many can really rival. In addition it's worth noting, two makers we both admire considerably, Dufour & Journe, both cut their teeth at JLC & Piaget respectively. Come on Bill, do the decent thing, credit where it's do, Piaget vid!

[@watchartsci]

Hi John, welcome to the channel. Did you see this? kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2ecdYieqb2BqNU Take care, Bill

[@leightodd7335]

Thanks again Bill. Thank you you for quantifying the watch world with facts and research. Is there a online tool to check information about the movements?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Leigh! There are a couple of general places, the best being watchbase.com . Also, thewatchenthusiast.com is a watch ranking site that is a joke as far as their ranking is concerned but a good place to find a caliber or base caliber. On newer watches I rely on reviews from Hodinkee, A Blog to Watch and some other review sources. Generally, if I cannot find a caliber I'll Google "review name-of-watch". Kindest regards, Bill

[@burkholdst.rudderberg3574]

Check out Dr. Ranfft's site.

[@riaz236]

Where does Certina rank?

[@watchartsci]

Certina running on a Powermatic 80 ... and most likely the other movements they use represent Standard Horology. Any Certina-manufactured movements would indicate Strong Horology. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@Colombianista2412]

what about frederique constant

[@watchartsci]

Hi Dan Ver .... Freddies are a brand I'm probably going to pass on for now. I don't know of anything especially innovative that they do, and they use gold plating. Some of their movement is in-house; some not. It's sort of a mixed bag right now, and I'll be interested to see who their new owner, Citizen, does with them. Kindest regards, Bill

[@Colombianista2412]

thank you for your answer... ill keep watching!

[@qwe9906]

My watch brand is Swiss military hanowa and Certina. I don't know why there are no my watch brands

[@watchartsci]

Qwe, Hanowa/Swiss Military watches use primarily quartz movements and create no movements of their own, and Certina is owned by Swatch and uses off the shelf movements created by others. So both would be in the Standard Horology category. Cheers, Bill

[@stewartjmurray]

I was in to this and then I saw that Hublot were in High Horology and Grand Seiko were in Strong???! WTF?

[@watchartsci]

Hey Stewart, I was surprised too, but in looking at data, I was even more surprised. Hublot has won five (5) Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prizes and while Seiko has won three (3) only one was won by Grand Seiko and that was for the Petite Aiguille ('small hand'- award for watches under 8,000 Swiss francs.) Tell me what you don't like about Hublot. (There's plenty to like about Grand Seiko.) Kindest regards, Bill

[@closer71]

@@watchartsci Hublot is fashion watch trash. I don’t care what award they were handed.

[@watchartsci]

@@closer71 So you think you know more than the experts who award the GPHG prizes ... you must be a whiz! ...You never did mention the watches in your collection. Take care, Bill

[@closer71]

@@watchartsci NONE are Hublot, I can assure you of that.

[@shipmate3577]

I agree with over 95% of your list. A very good start to an interesting discussion. I think both Doxa, Sinn, and Universal Geneve are on the cusp of moving up to Strong Horology. Sinn's range though is all over the place, with their EZM10 and all its impressive technology (submarine steel, humidity-absorbing pills, liquid-filled for pressure, etc)... however, they also make entry-level watches such as their 556 and 104 with basic SW-200 movements and no tech. Being a Rolex hater... it's hard for me to admit it, but I think Rolex is attempting to move up to high horology and have Tudor take it's place in the strong horology range. I also think Hermes is high horology. Would like to see where you would put Hanhart.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Shipmate, Hanhart would probably be in the Standard Horology category as their movements are modified ETA ones. Doxa is one of my favorite companies with their orange divers, but they seem satisfied to make their designs around ETA & Sellita movements with their own modules rather than invest in a movement of their own design. Sinn and UG...I don't know. Their creative resources are in modules and improving mechanical functionality around available movements by Swiss movement companies. Things change, and we've seen that with several companies such as Christopher Ward and Oris. Cheers, Bill

[@jim60]

I really think Carl F Bucherer should listed under High Horology.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Jim, they're heading in that direction, but if you look at the brand as a whole, they've still a bit to go. Kindest regards, Bill

[@nickhueser9193]

Hi I saw a diagram showing watches from each brand like Swatch owning Multiple watches by same company. I thought I saw it on your site.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Nick, my Web site got trashed (mainly by me...) and I haven't taken the time to update it. Send me an email at [e-mail] and I'll send you the information you're looking for in a PDF file. Cheers, Bill

[@RPMATX]

I would move Hublot down a couple of notches and Nomos up.

[@watchartsci]

Hi GP! Nomos has a couple of watches that are High Horology, but the bulk of their models are Strong Horology. Hublot is all over the map, and placing them anywhere is problematic. They probably straddle High Horology and Standard Horology! Cheers, Bill

[@coffeeboyclips1973]

Longines should be higher up.

[@watchartsci]

You're right Coffee Boy ... they're excellent Standard Horology watches. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@JY-ev5ms]

Longines?

[@watchartsci]

Standard Horology, but they're in the process of change, AS. Cheers, Bill

[@mattyreardon3593]

Is there a brand called rotex? I have an antimagnetic watch and can't read the dial well due to crystal frosting or scratches. I can't work out if it says Rolex or rotex. It's from the 60s. Wind up.

[@watchartsci]

Google "rotex" and see what happens, Matty. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷

[@altonriggs2352]

Maybe "watch assembler" would be a better description for some.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, Alton, you're absolutely right! Cheers, Bill

[@rezasoheil]

another great video Bill, which group you put the Habring 2 in ?. Also Hublot is from Zenith but is in the high Horology.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Reza-I've been re-thinking the whole concept of 'High Horology'. Take away the gold and platinum and engraving...what's left is a nice watch. That's where Habring2 is located with the added bonus that it was done with the hands of a watchmaker who designed and made the movement. Hublot and Zenith are both owned by LVMH; however, while it would make sense for Hublot to get all of its movements from Zenith ... I'm not sure whether that's what happens. I probably should add Hublot to my list of videos. Kindest regards, Bill

[@140675jcs]

Hi I would like to know what´s your favorite Watch brand?

[@watchartsci]

F.P. Journe seems to have the watches I like best, but Lang & Heyne has my current grail watch-the Georg. Kindest regards, Bill

[@antoineskaff8095]

Where is Frederic constant?

[@watchartsci]

Antoine, I wish you hadn't brought up Freddy. It's a good question without a simple answer or even a good answer. On the one hand, Frederique Constant is a Swiss mfg. located in Plan-les-Ouates, Switzerland; so they're respectable by association. They're owned by Citizen watches which have some major bucks they can use to support and promote Freddies. They were founded not too long ago by a Dutch couple who may or may not still be major elements. They use gold plating, which I see as a membership card in Standard Horology. They do have an in-house movement, but it's not much celebrated. So, I leave it to you to situation them in a rank. Best of luck, Bill

[@artl52]

Bill, in thinking about this topic all day while at work (when I should be thinking about other things) I thought that maybe Zenith also may straddle the strong and high horology categories. e.g, the El Primero movement I would consider as high horology because of the in house nature, quality, and some finishing. Thoughts?

[@watchartsci]

Art, you are absolutely right. Check out the response to Max Nz's comment below. Great minds all of that...Cheers, Bill

[@derekr5965]

How would you rank Christopher Ward? Standard for all the 3rd party movements, but maybe better for the in house twin drum 5 day reserve models (SH21)? Thanks.

[@watchartsci]

Derek, yes, that's about right: Standard Horology for those with the ETA/Sellita movements and Strong Horology for those with the SH21 movement. Cheers, Bill

[@jmbarish]

Bill: In looking at this date at the top two tiers, are there any brands that you would move up or down?

[@watchartsci]

There are quite a few Joel. This was from about 3 years ago and the plan has been to get collector-feedback and refine it. Any input you have would be helpful. Take care, Bill

[@eugenejohnson7755]

Hi Bill, are H. Moser watches really that good? I don't know the answer and I would really like to know. If they are, what is so special about it? Thank you.

[@watchartsci]

Yes they are, Eugene. One of the key elements of all H. Moser watches is their regulation system with the Straumann Hairspring. The Moser-owned 'Precision Engineering' make the Straumann hairspring used by top watchmakers including Voutilainen and MB&F. If you can find one, they're worth it. Take care, Bill

[@eugenejohnson7755]

@@watchartsci Thank you so much, Bill. They are in your exceptional Horology category. If they are so good, their advertised prices are very reasonable.

[@watchartsci]

@@eugenejohnson7755 There are a lot of more expensive watches with less quality too.

[@eugenejohnson7755]

@@watchartsci I agree with you. Gronefeld is very good but they charge way too much to the point that they are very greedy.

[@watchartsci]

@@eugenejohnson7755 They're not greedy. In order to make the kind of watches they do takes a great deal of time, and in order to have a viable business and make the few watches to the exacting craftsmanship ... they have to charge a good deal. Cheaper watches take less time. Take care, Bill

[@graemeanderson2044]

You mentioned that Rolex makes over a million watches a year, as a novice it’s hard to think that a mass produced product would have the quality. I do aspire to own one eventually but I would have thought a company that produces a lot less would have better quality. What’s your thoughts.Cheers Mate

[@watchartsci]

You know Graeme, intelligent questions like that can be very hard to answer... Rolex has a stellar reputation because they make good, solid watches and movements. Rolex has a number of things going for it. Number 1 is reputation, and Number 2 is quality and reliability of their movement. Their audience is a no-nonsense group who want a recognized watch that will serve them well. That's exactly what they get. Now Rolex-haters will give you a number of horror stories about Rolexes (on every level), but to be frank, Rolex makes a damn fine watch and deserves the reputation it gets. I know that their designs are ho-hum and you'll never see a watch like Bovet's 19Thirty with the Bow & Crown strap connectors; but there're plenty of followers who love the Pepsi bezels and Daytona Panda-faces. Yes, they makes a million, but they are backed up by excellent service and post-sale units. They almost define Strong Horology along with Zenith except that Zenith lack's Rolex's reputation. Kindest regards, Bill

[@algorithm007ify]

Bill can I add a caveat to your "Zenith lacking reputation comment"? I agree, however, this is for the general public. Enthusiasts like yourself know that in watch circles, Zenith has a high reputation. It just has not consistently surpassed Rolex. Since the mid 2000s, I have seen Zenith have moments above Rolex (in terms of finish quality and movement specs/quality) equalling JLC at times (and even surpassing them with high end complications) and other times when they are on par with Rolex. When the divisive DEFY range came out around 2007-2011, the CEO (Thierry NATAF) aimed Zenith to be above Hublot and a rival of JLC. Amazing complications and models came out like the gyroscopic tourbillion (worlds first) and the El Primero minute repeaters, traveller multicity alarm (with alarm, alarm power reserve, chrono, big date, world-timer, open heart, high beat), and the Defy classic open heart. These models were there to make a statement on a wrist (not the timid traditional Zenith designs). Some models were a touch 'loud', but others were amazing in presence, quality and class. Then Dufour (now the CEO of Rolex) came and he tried to make Zenith a rival of the Rolex level watches. Even though nice watches such as the striking tenth came about in this period, ultimately, this was actually a bad thing for Zenith's prestige, in my opinion. The following CEOs have re-iterated Dufour's approach, while Bivier placed the Gaudy Hublot 'above' Zenith. However, I still believe Zenith have stronger offerings than Hublot with regards to high horology and complications, despite the product ranking placement imposed by LVMH.

[@ramkumarbarathan]

whereis Tissot?

[@watchartsci]

Standard Horology, Ram. Even though, they have one of the coolest watches with the ETA 6498, their horological value is Standard-not a bad thing, and they are well-priced. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@u.u.upatreonrequests8679]

Can you explain Chanel...? Shouldn't they be with Rado?

[@watchartsci]

Yes, 3xYou...Chanel, unlike fashion watches, has quite a history. Here it is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJamnoSZqsRnbK8 . After you watch that let me know what you think. Kindest regards, Bill

[@webbezzy]

Hublot should be more like Strong one rather than exceptional

[@watchartsci]

I agree Webbezzy, but I was surprised by the large number of Grand Prix Hublot had won. Take care, Bill

[@jeffreytaylor8871]

Mr. Sanders, has Tutima jumped into the strong horology category due to the Patria?

[@watchartsci]

Jeffrey, there's one watch that Rolf Lang made for Tutima that throws part of Tutima into the 'Exceptional Horology' category...( www.europastar.com/magazine/features/1004084253-tutima-s-hommage-as-a-symbol-of-its-new-ambitions.html ) but I think that Tutima is best understood as "ranged horology," with a range of tiers in their watches. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@michalpolaczyk3116]

Hi Bill, I’m new to the channel. I’m a big fan of Grand Seiko. I see that you rank them under Strong Horology. Would you consider any of their models High Horology? I think that some of their mechanical pieces (I particularly like SBGY003 and SBGY007) are really not too far off from Patek, Lange etc. Thank you for great content!

[@watchartsci]

Michal, Grand Seiko makes excellent watches, but their range is so wide that they dip into some of the lower ranges, while other are clearly high horology. Take care, Bill

[@mattyreardon3593]

I can't believe a tag beats a bell and Ross. Bell and Ross have same moments as Breitling I thought?

[@watchartsci]

TAG Heuer has won a number of Grand Prix awards, but I don't think Bell & Ross have won any, Matty. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷

[@thechameleon77]

Great video! What are your thoughts Sinn?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Chameleon...Sinn watches are well made, but they rely largely on ETA/Sellita movements. One model by Sinn used a UWD 33.1 movement designed by Marco Lang-that's a beauty, but way too expensive. I'd like to see them create a Sinn-manufactured movement. Take care, Bill

[@mattyreardon3593]

Hublot use eta movements in some pieces don't they?

[@watchartsci]

Yes Matty, I believe so. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷

[@jeremydavis9417]

Some of these brands are just crazy to me as far as the categorization goes. I was curious why we do not speak of any "Gallet ( First Watch Company ever, back in the 13-14 hundreds, Christopher Ward, they are doing their own in-house movements, and filling the back side of the case to the brim pretty much with their movements now, and they are absolutely dominating the market place right now with their pricing for what you can get in a watch that other brands charge thousands and thousands of dollars more, their five days power reserve and finishing, colors, looks are incredible, I think they are going to be a top-notch company very fast, I'm pretty sure that they're pissing off all the other big name-brand companies with what they're doing to their watches and putting their watches for the price points that they are selling them at, you just can't beat it. Hamilton I think is one of the greats, all in house, great prices too. Tissot, love Tissot/Wegner, Certina, Zodiac needs to be in either high or exceptional, even for a cheap old used zodiac on eBay is horribly expensive still. I definitely don't think Fortis should be in standard horology, they should be in the next level or high horology, they've been around forever, they have a great background, excellent movements and I believe technically speaking it was the first official watch in space even though Omega Speedmaster professional was first watch on the moon. Another two great companies is Victorinox/Swiss Army also. I think Orient should be up there a lot further to cuz what you get bang for your buck and they're pretty beautiful watches but I understand this is all about massive amounts of money on watches categories, Award winners.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your comments. Most of the watches you mention are certainly functionally sound mechanical watches. None seem to approach high horology let alone exceptional horology based on the movements and quality of the details that are used to judge the highest tiers. That Gallet seems like a great tough little watch but it has a surprisingly small movement for the size of the case. The other ones you mention generally use standard ETA movements other than Orient, which have their own movements mass produced. Kindest regards, Bill

[@jeremydavis9417]

I appreciate you so much getting back to me so quick I've been watching your videos and a lot of names I'd have to say that I haven't heard of, mostly in the exceptional horology, ive seen only about half of them, so thank you for your help on that and your wisdom. I would advise to look into Christopher Ward a little bit more I've been looking into them quite a lot and they used to do ETA's only but now they're starting to do their own in-house movements only and they are quite amazing, and you can't beat it for the price that you get it for. When looking at the movement on the back of the Christopher Ward the rotor and Etc!!! is not highly decorated as it seems, to actually make that finally smooth satin brushed effect that they do on the rotor, they actually say it is very hard and labor intensive to do just that. Thought I'd throw that out there. Thank you again. I know they're lower price point but I wish I had the watches and the money to get the watches that you have. Thanks again. Eventually someday I'll get there. I just barely got my Seiko sarb033 black dial the other day which with it being discontinued was quite a challenge to get brand new at a good price, also got the Seiko Presage, automatic with the light blue, "cocktail time". I have a 125 watches and I'm still only up into Seiko. Been collecting since I was about 6 years old, now 38, I just got into the whole horology thing and being serious about it for about 4 or 5 months now, so hopefully I'll get there soon.

[@damondanieli8964]

Hello! I'm just wondering where Kudoke would rank on this list? They have some lovely pieces :) Regards, Damon

[@watchartsci]

Hi Damon, right now, probably High Horology. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@damondanieli8964]

Thank you :D

[@strapped2time]

Wondering your thoughts on putting Tag Heuer in the strong homology category? I would imagine they fit better in the standard horology. They eta or sellita movements. The most disappointing for me is the use of a modular chronograph in the Steve McQueen Monaco reissue. 😭I don't think their heritage is enough to keep them in that position. Btw...just stumble upon your vlog. I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Sean and welcome! TAG Heuer is a tricky one. On the one hand they've won several Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards including one Aiguille d'Or, and then they have certain bad habits like the one your noted with the Monaco reissue. The heritage part isn't as important since most of the interesting watches have been done by companies who were new around the turn of the millennium -- FP Journe, Parmigiani Fleurier, Bovet, MB&F, H. Moser along with the re-emergence of the great German watchmakers like A. Lange & Söhne, Moritz Grossmann, Lang & Heyne, and Glasütte Original. At some point in time it would probably be a good idea to do a detailed checking of individual watches along the four categories in use now. Kindest regards, Bill

[@josevasquez1781]

@@watchartsci Bill, I own two Tag Heuer with the H02 movement branded Heuer only on the dial. The H02 is fully in-house column wheel wheel with vertical clutch plus a oscillating pinion mechanism created and patented by Heuer which reduces wear when running the chronograph. Also 80 hours of power reserve on a single barrel at 28.8k is very interesting.

[@artl52]

another great video, Bill. I agree that when you start talking about rankings, it sometimes (or usually) gets controversial. btw, what's going on with the lighting in your video? I've seen the same thing in some of your others as well.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Art, thanks man for being so generous. They upgraded the iOS in my iPhone; so I'm going to have to diddle with it a bit more to get it right. Any suggestions? Take care, Bill

[@artl52]

WatchArtSci what kind of lighting do you have? I use LED tubes in A fluorescent fixture with no issues and using my iPhone with the latest IOS.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Art, I use LED and natural light. What camera settings do you use? Thanks, Bill

[@artl52]

I just use the standard iPhone video app. I do adjust the exposure level a little because it usually starts as too bright. I think my situation is less complex than yours since I am never on camera.

[@watchartsci]

Using Camtasia, I can get perfect lighting. When the the iPhone camera sees my face, it starts freaking out! Cheers, Bill

[@TheGaztela]

La mía es Seiko, Orient, Casio

[@watchartsci]

¿Porque no, Gaztela? Con cuidado, Bill

[@justanotherfool1807]

Where would Tissot be in this rank??

[@watchartsci]

Hi ShisuiLP, Tissot, many of which I like very much, would go into the Standard Horology Tier. Doesn't mean it's a bad or even cheap watch, it just because it does not manufacture its own movements. Kindest regards, Bill

[@justanotherfool1807]

@@watchartsci thanks you bill, I'm learning a lot from your videos :)

[@Deusmecumest]

Great Video. I can see what you mean and i get getting the most bang for your buck. As well as tipping your hat to the great watch makers out there. But I respectfully disagree in a couple of points. You were a pilot or were in aviation so that would be like saying Cessna is not a plane maker because their engines are made by a division of Porsche. Or Boeing is not a Jet maker because Amongst others General electric makes their engines. I know what you mean but there is something to be said for design and reliability. The efficient use of time in watch repairs. For those who enjoy cars Mercedes Benz was not considered very luxurious in the beginning but they were extremely reliable and that was considered a great quality. Duesemberg used a coach maker for their finest cars they're still the gold standard decades after they disappeared. Also Some of us prefer other traits and design to an inhouse movement witch might be really fuzzy or delicate or only serviceable by the maker.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Calo! First of all, my Cessna had a Lycoming engine made in the US. ... not a Porsche. However, I do get your point, and at one time, most watches were made that way. For example, Jaeger-LeCoultre was a movement company that used to make the "engines" for Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin. After the quartz crisis, they needed a reason to re-invent mechanical watches powered by a main spring.This was accomplished by introducing "High Horology" and the luxury watch. The value shifted from keeping near-perfect time as the quartz did to mechanical innovation and old-time mechanical decorations (e.g., guillochè, engraving on the movement bridges and bases) and make them rare and expensive because they were created by artists and artisans and not mechanics. Companies like ETA could made cheap and good movements for around $100 a pop (actually less), and some watch companies decided that instead of pursuing the "art" of fine watch movements decided to just do the cases and dials and leave the expensive costs of designing movements up to someone else who could do far cheaper. However, they still wanted the big money from "Haute Horlogerie" without the production costs. No one cared if they took advantage of collectors by pawning off a $200 case and movement for $5,000 and more. So to elevate the whole business, in-house movement (and good ones) became one of the hallmarks of high horology. There were exceptions when companies like Vaucher and Agenhor started providing movements that were better than most of the in-house ones, but they were not cheap; only created to meet the high levels of quality reflected in haute horlogerie. Check out this article by Roger Smith, George Daniel's apprentice: www.hodinkee.com/articles/an-open-letter-from-roger-smith Kindest regards, Bill

[@Deusmecumest]

WatchArtSci I will thanks Bill.

[@Deusmecumest]

Very interesting. I'm subscribed to Hodinkee but I hadn't read this article before. I think it proves my point exactly. Especially everything from paragraph 20 on. A watch brand will not be saved by plutocrats, but by Honest advertisement and the masses learning to " recognize quality and buying them in quantity ". On point one. On the second point, which would you rather have? or the wonderful watch club here. That beautiful Patek Philippe GMT you posted. Or Paul Newman's Paul Newman Daytona. Or you're not a car guy. How about since you like Lycoming (Even though The Skylane's Porsche is better in my book). Charles Lindbergh's lone eagle, or one of Amelia Earhart's Longines. Or how about Chuck Yaeger's GMT? The story is so much more engaging than the machinery. Just like "Art. Value is where you find it".

[@jamessantana2071]

CALO, couldn't agree with you more ... Been collecting only a year and at the risk of upsetting the grand master Bill, I recently viewed a KZbin vid by Master Horologist Jean-Claude Biver where he said (I paraphrase), "In house movements are just a current fad, as when I started in the business most Swiss Timepieces had reliable ETA movements & no one ever asked or cared, so 'In house' is really no big deal" ... Was stationed in Germany in the 1960's when most Taxi cabs were Mercedes & the Mark had little value, but thanks to Mercedes Reliability (& rise in value of the Mark) today it has become a Luxury brand, go figure. My "Thanks" to You Both Calo & Bill for your keen comments & lesson in Horology. Major Jim, USMC

[@Deusmecumest]

Thank you for your service sir. Thank you for your comment.

[@almeladze]

WatchArtSci,Bill, Louis Moinet is exceptional horology? Are they a fairly recent reincarnation that churns out overpriced watches that drop in value the instance they leave the factory? I was recently asked by a friend who was gifted this watch and my research didnt lead me to believe they were so exceptional. Also, Hublot you have in the same league as ALS, PP, VC and Zenith is a tier below?

[@watchartsci]

Louis Moinet is problematic Alexander. Those initial rankings were from "Watch Rankings," and I believe in revisions, I removed them. The idea was to re-do all the rankings and over time that has happened. Check out Hublot. It's not my cup of tea, but they have done more than most realize, and so has Zenith. Again, this was a first blush at this a few years ago. It's probably time to re-evaluate, but you'd be surprised how many of the "herd" opinions about watches is fairly uninformed. I have a soft-spot for Zenith, and they done a lot in movement development with Defy Labs; not necessarily in a direction I'd prefer. Look at some of the later rankings that have been modified. There's a lot more to this than the initial starting point. Take care, Bill

[@almeladze]

@@watchartsci Bill, I second everything you say here. And Zenith is awesome. I have 3 of them!

[@rickiemckenzie4984]

Sir you are a straight shooter very helpful please buy new glasses you push them up 50 times a show

[@watchartsci]

Hi Rickie, it's probably a nervous habit as much as a necessity to keep them from sliding off the end of my nose. I've got a strap that I use when working on watchmaking to keep them from falling off, and I'll use it. Take care, Bill

[@140675jcs]

Olá Bill, belo seu ponto de vista.

[@watchartsci]

Obrigado homem, feliz por você gostar! Atenciosamente Bill

[@MrRea112]

Hi Bill. This great table requires an update for 2024.

[@watchartsci]

Reply, I agree Mr. Real. What changes would you suggest? Take care, Bill

[@MrRea112]

⁠@@watchartsci Thank you Bill. Some very random thoughts……Longines(up?), Heuer (up) while TAG stays if that works and Hublot (down). Many brands have made changes upgrading their quality and relying less on ETA and Selita. I’m sure you know far more than I do on industry details as well as other brands such as Zenith, Breitling to name a few more. Frederick Constant probably deserves a mention and ranking.

[@algorithm007ify]

Bill, just a few more comments for discussion (I will play devils advocate, my apologise). Firstly, I am glad you placed JLC on the same level as the holy trinity. VC and AP have used many JLC movements. I am unsure if GP and Chopard should be there, Aren't brands like IWC and Zenith on par with them (for the "average" model)? For example, GP's sea hawk models surely do not supersede entry level models from Zenith at least. They used outdated small movements. Also, Chopard uses entry level ETA movements that are nothing to write home about (as does IWC). IWC and Zenith have amazing complications that are on par or above Chopard's high end. Also I dont think using GPHG awards is objective enough for a thorough analysis (unless the judging panel was much larger and didnt include "watch journalists" who do not always possess the necessary expertise, for example, Gaël Monfils). You also have Franck Muller (largely ETA based) as high horology....interesting. Perhaps they have great finishing? As always, you're thoughts are much appreciated (sorry for the quantity of points raised).

[@watchartsci]

Hey Algorithm! Let me start with Chopard. They just won the GPHG for the best watch in the world and they came out not long ago with their L.U.C. line. They deserve the bump. GP movements are used by HH brands, and they won the Aiguille d'Or as well not long ago. Agree with you about Zenith, but IWC is iffy with their ETA bases hidden from publication. GPHG has its drawbacks, but what better group of judges? Fanboys? Advertisers? GPHG, despite the fact that I disagree with them on a lot of things probably have it right more often than wrong. Cheers, Bill

[@algorithm007ify]

Hello Bill. That is a fair reply. We have slightly views on some points. If someone asked me who the best judge of watches were, I would say it would be primarily watch makers. It would be good if a poll of the top 100 or so watch makers was established (maybe 3 votes per company who cant vote for their own pieces, to make it "fair"). No votes from watch collectors, fanboys or "journalists". IWC make nice minute repeaters, tourbillions..and 8 day hand wound movements with more "German finishing" characteristics. I take your point on the ETA (it's really a shame), but again, Franck Muller is considered "high horology" and is primarily ETA based. Surely their ranking should change? I love Franck Muller btw.. On the GP topic, I used to have a GP WW.TC. I found the movement too small for the case, but reasonably decorate. In terms of finishing, it was below an IWC (8 day in-house movement) that my friend had. Onto Chopard (and the so-called best watch in the world). Again, like IWC and Frank Muller, they use Valjoux movements (but have the high end movements such as the LUC series as you mention, but then again, so do IWC). Anyway, it may sound like I am disagreeing with you more than agreeing, overall, I would be agreeing with your assessment. Sorry if I seem a little bit too indifferent with my response.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Algorithm, disagreeing is ok. One point you make which is a bit bothersome to me as well is about GP movement size in relationship to the size of the case and the fact that one of my favorite models, the Vintage 1945, has a round movement in a square / rectangle case. The GP 3300 movement is the utility infielder for a lot of their watches and it was developed at a time when cases were smaller, and were it not such a good movement, I would be more hesitant about GP in the HH category. They are at the bottom of the category, but their innovations in tourbillons and the fact that so many HH brands use GP movements requires they go into the HH category....the bottom, though. I should probably re-visit IWC, but until they come clean about the ETAs that they cram into their watches and detail what re-vamping they do, they can remain in the SH category; besides, most of their watches that are the most popular are sports (including aviation) type watches. However, if you think they should be moved I'll take another look. Cheers, Bill

[@algorithm007ify]

Yes I totally agree with your take on the GP 1945. It is a beautiful watch, other than the round movement in a square case issue that you have pointed out. I don't necessarily think you should put IWC in a higher category. You have successfully taken on the very hard task of categorising watch brands accurately into 'discrete bins' (for want of a better term). I guess I just wanted to point out that some watches may be in multiple categories simultaneously (as you have already rightfully pointed out). To be 100% accurate, perhaps we need to do this task by model, however, this will be an amazingly difficult and timely task!!. Onto a point I made earlier, I would like to share with you an example of a GP 3300 family movement in a modern sports case that I think is slightly too small for the case: timelessluxwatches.com/sites/default/files//reviews/Girard%20Perregaux%20Traveller%20(36).JPG I hope this link works. Back onto IWC, from my quick web-search, here are a several nice mid-to-high end IWC models with fully in-house calibers: 1) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portugieser/iw504602-portugieser-tourbillon-mystere-retrograde.html 2) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portofino/iw510107-portofino-hand-wound-eight-days.html 3) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portofino/iw515104-portofino-hand-wound-monopusher.html 4) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portofino/iw516501-portofino-hand-wound-tourbillon-retrograde.html 5) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portugieser/iw397204-portugieser-perpetual-calendar-digital-date-month.html 6) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/portugieser/iw544907-portugieser-minute-repeater.html 7) www.iwc.com/en/watch-collections/da-vinci/iw393101-da-vinci-tourbillon-retrograde-chronograph.html These are examples of "big dress watches" that IWC are famous for (besides the sports and pilot watches, which tend to have less complications). They are not everyone's taste but the are good quality. I would like to hear your thoughts on the sample (if you have the time). Thank you

[@watchartsci]

Algorithm, yes, they have some good in-house calibres; Now, take a look at IWC caliber 30110 and the large number of IWC watches based on that caliber. Then look at caliber 35111 and the watches that have that caliber. These are their lower-priced watches and best-selling ones. The 30110 is ETA based and the 35111 is Sellita based. In the links you sent me, see if you can find one mention of either base. That's what galls me about IWC. I can go to Steinhart and spend under $1k and get an equivalent watch in stainless steel that IWC charges $5k for. Kindest regards, Bill

[@enginu.3996]

where is Tissot Heritage Petite Seconde ?

[@watchartsci]

Erwin, in Standard Horology, but a very nice watch. Take care, Bill

[@enginu.3996]

@@watchartsci Thank you, could you make a video about Frank Muller? I looked at your videos but couldn't find it. I'm curious about your opinion on this brand's watches. thanks

[@watchartsci]

@@enginu.3996 Ok Erwin.

[@kristianyordanov1652]

Where is Cvstos?

[@watchartsci]

Where would you put it Juventino? And why? These rankings are for everyone! Take care and stay safe, Bill! 😷

[@kristianyordanov1652]

WatchArtSci Same lvl as Mullet because employers from it made the company and its really good

[@watchartsci]

Mullet? I don't know them Juventino.🤔

[@kristianyordanov1652]

WatchArtSci frank muller

[@Stafo85]

Looks like all my watches are standard horology...I should sell them all for 1 high horology piece!

[@watchartsci]

Hey Christopher that's the way we all start out in watch collection!! Mine was a Raymond Weil with an ETA movement. As I got smarter, I was able to buy smarter and better. Use Video #95 as the affordable express elevator to High Horology! Kindest regards, Bill

[@deancollins8229]

Nice to see Breitling and Tag in the strong category, I really enjoy your videos and wish that you had been one of my professors !

[@watchartsci]

Well, Dean, both Breitling and TAG Heuer were at one time my grail watches when I used to fly. I'd always see them advertised and displayed in the FBOs in the late eighties and early 90s. Cheers, Bill

[@josevasquez1781]

TH has the H02 chronograph that's fantastic with full integrated column wheel with vertical clutch design that's pretty amazing and only 168 components keeping service intervals at long stretches. It's a very solid movement.

[@BobbyShneaker]

Great list! Jacob & Co should be considered a high horology watch similar to Droz, Van Cleef, and Harry Winston. Many thanks for your knowledge and passion.

[@watchartsci]

From what I've seen of Jacob & Co, I think you're right. Thanks for the heads up! Cheers, Bill

[@chrisr4804]

Sorry but any list that has JLC, Patek and Vacheron not at the top is silly.

[@watchartsci]

Chris, those you mentioned are popular watches ( I own a Patek Philippe, JLC and two VCs), and they are good watches. However, while nice watches, experienced collectors might think you're silly for making such a naive claim. Learn about the watches that experts and experienced collectors seek. A good starting place would be the Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève (see gphg.org). Also check out www.watch-rankings.com/watch-rankings/ - Take care and be safe, Bill 😷

[@chrisr4804]

@@watchartsci I am sorry but I have to respectfully but strongly disagree with your characterization of these brands, but especially JLC and Patek. JLC created the worlds first watch capable of measuring the micron, the atmos clock and the Master Gyrotourbillon that includes an in house Tourbillon. Very few companies can even think of doing that. Patek and Vacheron have 4 of the top 5 most sophisticated and complicated movements ever created currently. One of the Vacheron pocket watches (i forget the exact reference number) has some outrageous number of complications in it, like over 50. They also INVENTED the complication. I am not saying any brands need to be removed from the highest tier list but not including these brands is comical. Experienced collectors would balk at anyone suggesting at least 2 of the 3 holy trinity watch brands not being included on such a list. Again, respectfully, we arent talking about Rolex and Omega here. We are talking about companies that basically started the swiss watch industry and carry on their ultra high end quality today.

[@watchartsci]

@@chrisr4804 You're basing your characterizations on past glories; not current realities. Recently, Jaeger-LeCoultre got rid of their Geophysic line of watches ... among their most creative and innovative. (The True Second has a wonderful mechanism for jumping seconds ... one recent innovation by JLC but now discontinued.) You really need to spend more time with what's been happening with contemporary watchmaking. Like I said, I own all three of the JLC, Patek, Vacheron Constantin watch brands, and they're all excellent. But compared to F.P. Journe, H. Moser, Lang & Heyne ... they're just not the same level. If you dwell on the past, I think you'll be missing a lot; but if you choose to do so ... that's fine. There are all different kinds of collectors in this hobby and you should choose the kind you want to be. 😷

[@chrisr4804]

@@watchartsci can't argue Lange being one of the greatest watch companies ever. My point is, I am not removing anyone from that list, just adding the other 3. Their history absolutely counts in my eyes.

[@watchartsci]

@@chrisr4804 Not A. Lange ... Lang of Lang & Heyne ... the work of Marco Lang. Ever since A. Lange & Söhne was bought by Richemont ... they haven't been the same. If you want to stay ahead of the curve, check out www.marcolangwatches.com/en/main-page/ Don't put too much in history. You've probably never heard of Leroy watches, but Leroy was a contemporary of Breguet and long had one of the best watches in the world ... from 1900-19893 Leroy (or L. Leroy as it was known for years) had the most complicated watches in the world... supplanted by Patek Philippe in 1989 and Patek by Vacheron Constantin in 2013. But what remains of Leroy are watches with cheap movements or movements by another movement maker (e.g. Vaucher). L. Leroy's history is stellar, but now they're owned by Festina, no longer make watches in Besançon France ... site of the famous Besançon Observatory. You can really enjoy learning about watch brands and watchmakers, but you'll need to widen your horizons. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@juancarlosgarduno9671]

I’m 25 just bought a AP Royal Oak 36mm 14800st for 5k good move ?

[@juancarlosgarduno9671]

The military dial

[@watchartsci]

Sounds like you got a winner and at a good price, Juan. How does it feel wearing it? Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@UrSSuL]

What about Edox or Mido?

[@watchartsci]

Hi Poli, what movement do they use? Thanks, Bill

[@UrSSuL]

@@watchartsci I was refering in general. I was looking at an EDOX Grand Ocean Chrono 10023 (quartz) , one Les Vauberts Automatic 91001 36R ABR, and a MIDO COMMANDER II Datum. Don' t know the movements, yet. I am curious overal. Thanks

[@watchartsci]

Thanks for the additional information. The ranking system was set up using mechanical movements, and so watches with quartz movement are in a whole different class of wrist watches as are 'smart' watches. The Automatic Mido Caliber 80 (base ETA C07.651) in the datum is ETA base, which would make it a 'Standard Horology' watch. I like the fact that Mido tells the buyer what movement and base is in their watches. Kindest regards, Bill

[@UrSSuL]

@@watchartsci Hello, The Edox 91001 37R ABR Has a ETA 2824-2 DUBOIS DÉPRAZ 291. Thanks!

[@watchartsci]

Poli, you did mention an Edox quartz... So, the 91001 would be Standard Horology. How do you feel about their pricing? Take care, Bill

[@willieboon6150]

Hi Bill, How about Grand Seiko? Hope my question is not provocative, and i do feel its fanboys might want to have thee same question. Cheers.

[@willieboon6150]

Oh i see it there in SH sorry.

[@watchartsci]

No worries....

[@yashav2949]

Dear Bill, thank you for the very interesting and enriching content and for your lovely personality- it all adds up to a great watch blog. I love hearing your personal experience and can say that I relate to the majority of thing except for the favorable treatment of Nomos - which, in my opinion is to say the least soft and appealing to a very narrow market segment. My question however is by what principle did you put H.Moser under exceptional horology while Jaquet Droz is considered high horology ? Thank you. Jakov

[@watchartsci]

Hey Jakov! Thanks man! Both H. Moser & Cie and Jaquet Droz were ranked in equivalent tiers by Watch-Rankings dot com. However, I agree with both placements (www.watch-rankings.com/watch-rankings/) I purchased an H. Moser and I came to know the U.S. H. Moser rep, and both have convinced me that their watches are of the highest order. As for Jaquet Droz, I met their rep at the WatchTime Show in NYC last year. The watches they have are remarkable, and while they're owned by Swatch, it appears that Swatch has enough sense to let them develop with their own identity. They have strong history with automata and the Chinese market and style. Definitely High Horology. As for Nomos, the Bauhaus look is a take-it or leave-it proposition, but their their DUW set of calibers are class acts. Remember, when Philippe Dufour was asked what the best watch under $10,000 was, he replied, 'Nomos.' Great to heard from you! Kindest regards, Bill

[@michaelzhang9839]

Why do you not rank Grand Seiko as high horology? Specifically in regards to spring drive.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Michael, I agree with you. I used the Watch-Ranking categories and had to make a lot of changes, and some of the Grand Seikos were definitely in high horology. Thanks for pointing that out. Kindest regards, Bill

[@jamessantana2071]

EXCEPTIONAL "DARING" TOPIC & ANOTHER GREAT REVIEW AS USUAL ... Was going to pick up a "Greubel Forsey" but Thank God I saw your video Just In Time, as it did NOT make the list of Exceptional Horology so decided I will pass until it makes the GRADE ... maybe Next Year (or actually in my next Reincarnation). Keep Up The Fine Work (oops, PLAY), Major Jim, USMC

[@watchartsci]

James, so glad to hear that you passed up Greubel Forsey....until you heard that they won the GPHG Calendar Watch Prize for the QP a Équation...you may have run out and got the Tourbillon 24 Secondes Vision way back from 2015. Well, you're safe now and can get the QP a Équation prior to your next Reincarnation where let's hope you don't return as a Banana Slug with no wrists for the latest Greubel Forsey. Kindest regards, Bill

[@burkholdst.rudderberg3574]

Great list! Now I am mad I sold my Vulcain! It would have been interesting to see a watch rankings list from the 40s; some extant brands would go up (Alpina, Longines, Universal Geneve ) and some brands would go down ( Rolex ). Some brands with in house movements at that time ( Bulova, Buren, Gruen, Record ) could have been on the list. Did you ignore the smaller Swiss brands ( Atlantic, West End Watch, Zeno Watch Basel, etc.) for the " Standard Horology " category, or did you just run out of room?

[@watchartsci]

Thanks man! Wasn't ignoring the other Swiss brands; just ran out of room! Cheers, Bill

[@keekeefries6298]

So Hublot is ‘High’ horology with the holy trinity? Please! Zenith makes a movement that can tack down to 1/100th of a second but a fashion watch gets he nod over them? Please reconsider....

[@watchartsci]

Well Keekee, there is a range within each tier. Likewise, there's a range in Hublot, a watch brand that has won 5 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards (the same number as Jaeger-LeCoultre). The Holy Trinity is so named because it is at the very top of Haute Horlogerie, but that doesn't mean other watches cannot fit in the same tier. So since you asked nicely and said, 'Please' you can be the one who takes a closer look at Hublot's movements, innovations and developments and explain better why it belongs in another tier..or alternatively, why it should be considered Haute Horlogerie as the others in the tier. Do that, and I'd happily reconsider. (By the way, this was the tier that Watch-Rankings placed Hublot in as well.) Kindest regards, Bill

[@waqarghulam3548]

Seiko and Grand Seiko!

[@watchartsci]

Yes...lots of people like those Waqar. Cheers, Bill

[@closer71]

Ha! Ha! Ha! If he thinks Hublot is haute horology, his opinion is irrelevant; we certainly don’t define our standards the same way. Hublot is fashion watch garbage as far as I can tell.

[@watchartsci]

James ... once you bother to look into Hublot (or anything else out of a fanboy mentality), you'll find they've won five (5) Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève awards. (That's 5 more than Rolex.) They have a complex history between what you think are 'fashion' and horology. What kind of watches do you collect? Take care, Bill

[@closer71]

@@watchartsci I only buy Parmigiani Fleurier, Vacheron and Rolex but I own a Cartier tank w/ a JLC manual movement. I only buy watches based on my taste, not on awards from a bunch of professional back slapping sycophants. And FYI there’s absolutely no way TAG is in the same league as Rolex. The previous Heuer, certainly. Not TAG-Heuer, whose entire reputation is derived from their roots.

[@watchartsci]

​@@closer71 Fanboys usually don't go for Parmigiani Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève may have a measure of what you call "professional back slapping sycophants," but you don't know that. I do know one of the few Americans who was a GPHG

[@ivansmith4242]

All these criteria for the various brands and where they sit is largely meaningless due to the time factor. The most expensive watch in the world sold at auction does not have an in house. Longines at one point was at the top of the world. Etc etc. Fifty years from now who knows

[@watchartsci]

Hi Ivan. Yes, that's why we must keep updating these rankings so that they do not become meaningless. What can you offer? Cheers, Bill

[@ivansmith4242]

Many times the more esoteric pieces come with a huge set of headaches. Don't get me started on spectacular looking movements that are objet d'art and piece unique that arrive non functional. And proprietary hex screws spaced at 0.98 mm that nobody in the world can touch. So all your prayers are offered to keep your watchmaker in good health as if he passes on then your 100 000$ watch is toast!

[@watchartsci]

You need to get out more Ivan. Have you checked the AWCI? (www.awci.com/for-watch-clock-owners/repair-directory/) Find a master watchmaker; it's not like if the watchmaker drops dead, you're out of luck. I've just got two F.P. Journes returned from overhaul and service at the US FP Journe Service Center in Miami, but if they closed they have one in Geneva. You may not have the right mind set or resources for High Horology. That's okay. There are plenty of watches with movements that you can get serviced anywhere. Cheers, Bill

[@ivansmith4242]

WatchArtSci people with resources don't shop for haute de gamme on jomashop dude. Just sayin...

[@watchartsci]

You must know a whole different set of people with resources than I do. They show up wherever there's a good buy. The one place I've avoided where you can possibly find a good watch purchase with money to burn is at auctions. Whatever the winning bid is will cost you a 25% surcharge on top. So, $1000 is really $1250. Otherwise, people with resources usually get the best prices. When you're rich, Ivan, you'll see. Take care, Bill

[@ignacyk4585]

moser over lange, dude, come on!

[@watchartsci]

Ignacy ... ever since Richemont bought AL&S ...they haven't been quite the same. On the other hand, H. Moser et Cie have been doing some incredible things, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the AL&S watches have hairsprings by Moser.Check out what's been new from H. Moser and AL&S since 2000 when Richemont took over AL&S ... especially in the last 5 or 6 years compared to what HMC has done.😉Take care, Bill

[@ignacyk4585]

"ever since Richemont bought AL&S ...they haven't been quite the same" - are you sure? Its arguably brand the gave us hardest heute horology in last decades. ALS finishing in unparallel and please being vertically integrated how Moser is supposed to be doesnt make their watch design coherent. On contrary you look at their Mayu design, you have Patek lugs, feminen leave hands and that all is presented on sunburst dial, quite a pizza, dont you think? I appreciate after looking at your collection you like roccoco watches but its not for everyone. I dont care where ALS takes hairspring from, does anybody? Said that Richard Lange hairsprings are done in house. Check facts, dont hate

[@watchartsci]

@@ignacyk4585 I do check facts. Because we may disagree, 1) does not mean I hate ALS ... quite the contrary (check out the video I did on ALS); 2) check your own facts. Largely my opinion has been molded by a watchmaker who is both German and a huge fan of ALS and a former judge on Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève. He was disappointed after certain policies of Richemont began to infect how AL&S were made and which ones could be made. What do you mean by "feminine leave" hands? Do you mean feuille (leaf) hands. Patek lugs? Check out George Daniels' "Watchmaking" and "The Art of Breguet." You sound like you take shortcuts in learning about watches, and while your opinion is as important as anyone Straumann Hairspring by H. Moser et Cie . (By the way, Patek uses silicon hairsprings and escapements ... which has put me off that storied brand as well.) Take care, Bill

[@ignacyk4585]

@@watchartsci yeah, we get it, ur self proclaimed watch master. You aren’t, h moser is run by a dentist 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@watchartsci]

@@ignacyk4585 It's just you. There's no "we" with you Ignacy. Remember, it's ok to be you. Take care, Bill

[@PB-cx7wf]

In my opinion this "Exceptional Horology" ranking is nonsense. At least I don't see the point why a Moser, a Lang &Heyne or a Grönefeld should be better as a A. Lange & Söhne or a Patek Philippe who are regarded as the best watchmakers in the world. Also the "Strong Horology" ranking makes me laugh: To rank Rolex among Breitling, Chronoswiss, Nomos and others who are much cheaper and still often use Eta movements just makes me laugh!

[@watchartsci]

PB, too many stereotypical assumptions are nonsense. Starting with 'Watch Rankings' (see watch-rankings.com) an entire category of watches was ranked above Patek Philippe & A. Lange. These, I adjusted (mostly downwards) to what appeared to be more realistic rankings. Don't get me wrong, Patek Philippe are wonderful watches-I own one. However, given the production numbers of Patek, they essentially produce top drawer mass produced watches-on the order of around 50,000 per year. (Rolex produces 1.4 million annually). Compared to F.P. Journe, which produces around 850± watches a year, Patek is really churning them out. As for Nomos, they've cleared their stock of ETA movements and most are DUW calibers and some Alpha calibers now. Rolex makes excellent tool watches, but what Patek and Rolex do better than anyone else is marketing. Rolex has never entered a watch in the Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève, and if they did, they'd most likely get clobbered in any of the higher and more complex categories, but they'd do well in the lower ones such as the “Petite Aiguille” or "Diver's"; Patek Philippe has entered and even won two Aiguille d'Or (Grand Prize) awards, as has Vacheron Constantin. Overall, Patek has won 7 Grand Prix awards, as has F.P. Journe, but FPJ has won three Aiguille d'Or awards-more than any other company. If you want to laugh about something, laugh at the gullible fools who believe that "You never really own a Patek Philippe; you just take care of it until the next generation..." and the slogans that have put Patek and Rolex on the top of sales and re-sale markets. One thing, I'd like to make clear; I'm on the side of the watch collector; not the marketing departments of the watch companies. On several occasions I've invited subscribers to help out with refining the categories for the benefit of the collectors, but not once has anyone really stepped up. They just moan that they don't like something. So it's put up or shut up, and usually they just shut up rather than going through all of the work involved in researching every model of every brand and start making real comparisons. Maybe you'll be the one to step up? Kindest regards, Bill

[@PB-cx7wf]

Bill, you have your opinion, I have mine. I did not mention that Rolex should rank in a high horology sector. And I know their watches are often overpriced in the secondary market. But you just can't list them in the same rank as a Chronoswiss or Nomos. The production quality and precision of a Rolex is just outstanding. And they only use inhouse movements. Regarding the high horology segment, maybe FPJ are doing better as Patek because they are a pure niche player. But to rank Lange & Söhne, Patek Philippe and also Vacheron amongst Blancpain, Chopard, Harry Winston, Hublot, and others who are certainly good watch makers but also produce a lot of mass products just does not fit. I am sure that you are researching a lot and that you know much more about watches than I do but your rankings seem to be a little biased to me, sorry.

[@watchartsci]

PB, where's the bias? It doesn't go along with the marketing campaigns of Rolex and Patek? What time have you actually spent looking beyond the obvious in Rolex and Patek? What do you know about these other brands? You're matching these other brands against hugely successful marketing campaigns-not the watches themselves. Within a tier, are there gradations? Within a brand do different models have different levels of craftsmanship? Again, I invite you to do some real research so that you're really reflecting your values of watches and not some slick advertising. On several occasions I've told collectors, 'Don't listen to me. Do your own research." If that kind of digging and understanding is not to your liking, then what does that tell you about yourself as a watch collector? If you don't like the rankings, help out in getting them right; not just by claiming you know about watches when most of your claims are written by copywriters in an advertising firm. Take care, Bill

[@worldofameiso5491]

What a bunch of sad men. I go with seconda’s old strap line ‘time is precious, it doesn’t have to be expensive’

[@watchartsci]

What's sad is that we have to have rankings because the watch companies aren't exactly forthcoming with what's in their watches. No, it doesn't have to be expensive, but you should know what you're paying for. Take care, Bill