494: Falwell Fallout & How Not to Read the Bible with Dan Kimball

[@kamalastromwall9275]

I would like way more of this conversation about the disbeliever, the disillusioned and the disciple and disentangling our beliefs. Also the convo on the last ep when Kaitlyn was talking about there being absolute truth but our inability to discern it as "small creatures". These were very helpful conversations.

[@ericpeters9476]

In reference to David French and popularism, for 45 year I have been using the phrase, “God can do great things in spite of me and my failings, not because of me and my intellect.”

[@billhinshillwood2670]

I'm halfway between the disillusioned and disciple from Skye's analogy. I was a member of a Southern Baptist church for 10 years but since the pandemic hit i haven't attended that church or found another church to be a part of. That southern baptist church was always conservative but before 2020 the focus was always on the gospel and being a light in the world, workplace, and your community. But in 2020 there was a big change in the sermons and small group discussions with a great focus on the culture wars and those evil Democrats. My hope now is to find a church that isn't hyper focused on Christian nationalism, but it's becoming hard to find. Plus I have a special needs son who could not participate in Sunday school because of behavioral and developmental difficulties. And the American church is way way behind on helping special needs kids and their families. My old church said they were a family, but our needs and cries for help were ignored. Hurt me a lot. If they were a family they would care about me and my son. And finally everyone in the church wanted to send their kids to liberty university, which wasn't something I was ever gonna do.

[@Johannesburg777]

It's amazing to see how people's viewpoints shifted from being gospel-focused to politically focused. I had one friend I still keep in contact with via Facebook from the church I used to attend in Southern California. While he and I didn't always agree on everything, we always stood solid on the gospel of Christ , sanctity of marriage and the belief that there is no superior race in Christ (I'm black, he's white). During 2020, as the pandemic wore on along with racial issues surrounding George Floyd's death and President Trump's election fiasco, this friend would post things that shocked me to the core, -- like sharing a post saying that "black privilege is committing a crime and getting away with it," or that "democrats created the pandemic," stuff like that. I don't want to say this friend is racist or paint the person in a negative light, as I understood there were some valid points he was trying to make in regards to corrupt politics and shirking responsibility when it comes to crime, but I felt that those posts were uncalled for, racist, and insensitive. The church my friend and I used to attend is well known and solid in biblical doctrine, and the pastor is someone I listen to because he sticks firmly to Scripture, but in 2020 I even saw conservative politics creep into the pulpit and I was disillusioned. I honestly don't think I would ever be accepted by that church (even though I follow Jesus, stand for sanctity of marriage, according to Scripture) simply because I didn't support Trump and I got the Covid vaccine. I'm convinced they'll think I took the Mark and that I left the faith because I stand against racism. Yes, it's my own perception, but believe me, what you put out on social media has a lot of influence.

[@hapennysparrow]

When all of these things began to happen, Jesus spoke to me and said, Keep your eyes on me."

[@hapennysparrow]

Dear one, I also had to flee a friendly church when they made a sharp right turn, and defended the indefensible in followingTrump and The far right wing white evangelical worldviews. I was labeled a Marxist because I am politically progressive, and criticized the mean spiritness of the whole movement. Just before all of this hit the fan, Jesus spoke to me and said " Keep your eyes on me". I have not attended church anywhere except twice and found to my dismay that they followed the same playbook. I hope this helps. You are not alone. Keep your eyes on Jesus. He will lead you to your tribe. In the meanwhile, know his love surrounds you and your beautiful child.

[@heyshay07]

It’s really hard to find a church that isn’t like that. I don’t even know how to find one or what to look for or if they even exist here in Wyoming.

[@norenemanning4686]

Three 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 Great dialogue! Such great information and Pastor Kimball’s testimony is awesome. Ordering his book! Thank you Holypost! 💯👏🏽✅

[@danieljarchow3980]

Love the podcast. Skye, thank you for your three categories of people leaving evangelicalism. You're exactly right! Our church is full of disciples and the disillusioned. We're on the journey of rejecting right wing politics to follow Jesus. Unfortunately, many of our friends and family then think we're leaving Christianity.

[@anabaird3835]

You speak for SO many people, Daniel...including "lots of family & friends think we're leaving Christianity". I know this doesn't help, but you're FAR from alone. As a political independent, Idkh anyone can pledge to ANY political party/side.

[@hapennysparrow]

How I wish I was in a fellowship like yours. I fled the one I attended when they all made a sharp right turn. I have tried several others in my community and just found more of the same. I live in North County San Diego and feel as if I am living on a deserted island. Keeping my eyes on Jesus.

[@promomail1768]

@@hapennysparrow check out The Rock Church in San Diego (liberty station), San Marcos and other locations. Pastor Miles McPherson.

[@DocAdaka]

@@hapennysparrow I've read Miles Mcphersons' book - "The Third Option". If I lived in San Diego, I'd go to his church..

[@patrickc3419]

A person can’t “leave Christianity”. 1 John 2:19. You’re either a Christian, or you are not. I have no idea what “right wing politics” which you speak of that you think a Christian should reject.

[@gwnfan]

If the songs from this are not available to be heard.... then I will be very very heart broken.

[@rhondaleeaping9463]

Morning Everyone!! God bless all of you!!!

[@rketek]

My husband and I are deconstructing our faith in our theologically conservative denomination. We have been deeply hurt by seeing that those who we stood arm in arm with, we've realized there is a deep chasm that sends unbridgeable. We are 2 of the Disillusioned looking for a place to be Disciples. Where do we go?

[@patrickc3419]

A church that preaches the doctrines of grace: Faith alone, Grace alone, Christ alone, the Holy Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. In the world but not of the world.

[@toddwiese7023]

Fun listening to the back and forth between Skye and Phil. It’s a little bit of silly and then into the serious. But time and again through the years Christian brings it back to following, obeying, walking, with Jesus. Can never hear that too often.

[@fortheSavior]

So glad these are up on KZbin! Jason, what's your camera set up?

[@JaseRuggy]

I've got a Sony A7sII set up as my webcam with a SLR Magic 50mm lens and an Elgato Capture device!

[@SandyKH]

Good stuff. Real questions for real people!

[@ConnorMarc]

And to Christian, *"Evangelical"* isn't hard to *define,* it's just hard for those of you who are/were truly genuine about their faith to *accept.* Accept the fact that the term has *changed* from whatever it was before to being "white Republican-leaning and/or supporting voters who are *culturally* Christian, most of whom don't attend church regularly, or at all, and don't read or know the Bible." That's what "evangelical" means *today,* sadly.

[@greglogan7706]

Marc, yup!

[@mdl8210]

Absolutely negligence on the board and entire university top heads. They covered up everything. It’s disgusting. The pool boy is the least of the worries. Blaming rape victims and selling their babies for money is abhorrent. Please listen to the podcast.

[@billyfrank3020]

Skye, I think your 3-D model needs to also include those who, during their re-evaluation ‘crisis,’ discovered even deeper issues with scripture and Christianity which left them now conscientiously unable to continue to trust the scriptures as before. The last couple of years have compelled us all to look at a great many things we (especially white evangelical Christians) may previously not have known, or knew but did not take seriously, or things we were routinely discouraged from knowing, etc.

[@heyshay07]

This podcast is so helpful! I agree that there are 3 types of people leaving the church which I never understood until watching Phil’s explication about Evangelicalism. I thought Christianity was always just white, republican Christianity and to not align with that meant leaving church. I am so happy that’s not the case. Thank you for helping me understand that.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

White, Republican Christianity is more often than not just worship of tradition, or as it’s sometimes called, the ways of the world.

[@patrickc3419]

Why on earth would you believe that “Christianity is white”?? Specifically…

[@mdl8210]

Please do not in any way feel sad for Jerry Falwell. Listen to the podcast. He covered up repeated rapes on campus, including staff, blamed the victims on them being raped, and on and on. Stop taking up for this man or giving him a pass. It’s gross.

[@amandakay6330]

Ok regarding the three buckets, what do you call people who are feeling the need to leave their religious tradition due to the prevalence of Christian nationalism, but cannot find an alternative within their local area that is still theologically conservative but not beholding to the religious right? Help!

[@kathyw7369]

Phil, I think you meant General Flynn, not General Kelly, as being one of those who went to the border wall. General John Kelly is ethical.

[@Cyrribrae]

Certainly seems better than Flynn, at least. I think we could have a discussion about ethics and his choices (I could go either way, but I probably lean towards he is a principled man who was trying to do his best to avert disaster). But either way, at least he wasn't investigated by the country for potentially selling us out to the Russians. You'd think that'd be something QAnon people would care about. But eh. haha.

[@rketek]

If Falwell wanted to say, "I'm not the elite, I'm the common man," Vanity Fair is not the best venue.

[@cassandraking2132]

I LOVE BioLogos! That will be wonderful. So great to hear the Dan Kimball interview.

[@2serve4Christ]

12:22 "...I'm not someone who cares about #Morality" (not sure if this is a Falwell quote or a Vischer interpretation) I shouldn't have laughed at this, but OMGoodness the dissonance is delightfully ridiculous. 😭😭😭💔

[@Justanotherconsumer]

It doesn’t really affect their cred, though, because the followers are loyal to the conservativism, not the Christianity. This is something that baffles Christians on the left (I grew up in the UCC, so… out there on the left) - that Falwell was just using religion as a convenient prop as part of his social brand seemed obvious. Were people actually surprised at Falwell’s statement? I mean, other than surprise that he actually admitted it. Also, shameless plug again to discuss the Theological Declaration of Barmen at some point.

[@deeh9]

4th category of leavers. Those who decided (because of observing evangelicals since 2016) that it was past time to critically study where the Bible came from, its historical accuracy and why we still think it's the actual voice of God. I now simply can't believe. Period.

[@anthonybarber3872]

Why not?

[@deeh9]

@@anthonybarber3872 ?? 1. Read it. 2. Read it. Etc.

[@anthonybarber3872]

@@deeh9 We must read with understanding.

[@deeh9]

@@anthonybarber3872 just a heads up, when trying to convince someone try not to insult their intelligence. And when you have a minute ask yourself if reading with understanding will take care of things why are there more than 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide?🤔

[@23Hiya]

The three tiered thing works pretty well, but I have a family member who's pursuing intentional community rather than church and a friend who's working with refugees rather than doing church. These folks might present a difficulty in the sense that they seem to think that the sincere pursuit of Christ can lead you out of institutional church settings altogether. Does a person only qualify as a disciple if they have found a new church home?

[@23Hiya]

@Scott Johnson Ya. They've linked up with a couple other couples to do some church of Acts style sharing of resources and hospitality.

[@23Hiya]

@Scott Johnson I was just offering what seemed to me to be difficult edge cases for Skye's classification system. If you want to call three married couples a church that's fine, but I got the sense that Skye's dividing line between disillusioned and disciple had a larger institutional component. As in, disciples find faithful ways to reintegrate into existing structures. I could be wrong tho. Take good care. Tnx for engaging.

[@gwnfan]

33:40, I have tried to give examples and illustrations to friends about how their perception of being persecuted is very off, and I then give examples of what is going on with India, and they just do not get it.

[@simplycass1]

Oh wow Skye was just 45 minutes from where I live. I'm from the Central/San Joaquin Valley and I'm happy living here. By the way, Visalia is pronounced with a long "I" like in "ice". 😁

[@simplycass1]

Also, if you are ever in the Central Valley again I suggest visiting Sequoia National Park or Kings Canyon national park. Both are less than 2 hours from Visalia. And I like going to the Tulare Outlets. (20 minutes away from Visalia.) The Galaxy Theater there is nice.

[@Tablestories]

Great content and episode! I'm one of those young christian men who have gone on the anglican way.

[@BryanLeeDavidson]

So for those of walking away from this these wrong traditions, where do we go? Where can an ex missionary go?

[@bethrossiter1857]

maybe starting a new church? especially if you know of others of like mind. and I believe there are many 🙏

[@ignigma]

Fine! I'll buy this one and the study stuff! I'm starting to do studies at my church and this will go on the list! lol.

[@Theinternalrewrite]

As a British evangelical Christian (note the small e) I wouldn't suggest we are more progressive, I know plenty of politically conservative people in the church, but we have grown used to more social laws and systems than are conventionally found across the US or are federally created. In this way many British right wingers still support initiatives that would have American right wingers claiming Brits are all on the left.

[@madamepasteure]

The points that you mention from the evil Bible website remind me of Chelsea Hart's (former Christian) tiktoks

[@luisbartolomey3988]

This show and anything like it is medicine for the disillusioned.

[@thespacedisland5746]

has been for me, and Im not even an Evangelical!

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

On the guest. So the best way to believe in and trust the Bible is to not read the Bible...compare this to the best way to not feel convicted by history is to erase it. I have always pushed myself and others to read, question, and challenge the Bible and their faith. God is big enough to handle questions

[@mdl8210]

Did y’all listen to the Gangster Capitalism podcast, season 3, on the liberty university cover up of rapes on campus?

[@anabaird3835]

Haven't heard of it, but I'll definitely try to find it. Thank you so much for the recommend.

[@josephgreer8819]

Political candidates and moral belief section: I'd disagree that they are both problematic...or at least equally problematic. It is a much bigger problem for a political candidate to change your moral beliefs than it is for you to change a candidate's beliefs. After all, in a representative democracy our political leaders are supposed to represent the majority of our beliefs. So the candidate should take on the values of the electorate. However, when evangelicals are shaped not by the Word of God, but instead by a politician, really scary things can happen as a result.

[@shamurphy6255]

Saying that you are “like everyone else” is a logical fallacy!

[@HCoons1975]

I disagree with Dawkins on many things. But I do agree with him on reading the Bible. It has influenced Western civilization. Reading the Bible is what made me an atheist. I became an atheist long before I heard of Dawkins. To say that God is good is to make excuses for what is bad behavior. If you can excise bad behavior in God, you can do it for anyone. I enjoy the show. Keep up the good work.

[@lark8356]

Grace and Peace to you. I would be delighted to discuss this on Telegram with you and anyone else who reads this comment. You can find the Telegram link in the About section of my KZbin page. I'd post the link here, but KZbin would remove my post. I can also send the link to you via email. My email address is also in the About section of my KZbin page. I look forward to speaking with you. God bless you.

[@mdl8210]

Did y’all watch the Gangster Capitalism podcast (season 3) on Jerry Falwell’s crime family and liberty university systemic cover up of so much like so many rapes and sexual assaults.

[@missrobin2088]

I listened to that. It's appalling what happened there. Did you listen to the most recent one from December? My company has a store in Lynchburg, and all I can think about his how corrupt their police dept is.

[@greglogan7706]

Second issue - Skye has his neat tri-partite categorization of disaffected christians. He is completely ignoring the fact that there is a huge category of ex-evangelicals who often were raised in an evangelical environment who simply don't buy the very weak claims of evangelicalism!! For Skye not to get this demonstrates a severe disconnect with a strong albeit small group of podcasters et cetera and a growing number of disaffected evangelicals who are deconstructing because they don't buy the flimsy or silly pieces of evangelicalism which are almost infinite.

[@Cyrribrae]

I'm not convinced that Christian is politically left quite yet haha XD. There's a lot of room between "left" and "not far right", and that's ok haha. We shouldn't feel pressured to abandon one bucket by jumping fully into another bucket. Similarly.. I'll echo everyone's praise for Skye's triple alliteration categories (or perhaps 'archetypes'). May I suggest that rather than thinking about these as three different people, perhaps we think about them as the same person at three stages of their faith/deconstruction journey? Sure, maybe disbelievers never believed in Jesus anyway. But... that's all of us, isn't it? Many of us also spent a lot of time at church not REALLY believing in God - until it finally happened for whatever reason in whatever way, right? And then, for someone whose faith is so tightly bound up with all of these other cultural and social things, detangling that bundle is going to be a traumatic experience that almost MUST cause a crisis of faith where people are going to question "do I believe any of this at all?" A disbelief stage. And then there's processing. The difference between a disbelieving person and a disillusioned person is just how successfully they are unbundling, right? How quickly can they get to "I don't like this stuff Christians are doing. But do I want to follow God? Yes I think I want to try, even though I'm not sure how anymore." May take 15 seconds, 15 years, or 15 lifetimes. But it can be the same person - and it probably helps to have someone else to help. And then maybe there's a rededication and renewal of purpose. When people grow deeper in faith because they've gone through that trauma and processing, realizing what things God is calling them to do next. And then we are disciples. After all, there's never been a disciple who didn't disbelieve at some point (and usually many times even after God calls them) nor one who never got discouraged and/or disillusioned. I think this is a space where Christian mentors and counseling is going to be so critical - and where voices like your own on this podcast and of so many people you guys have featured really can make a difference to we who are working through our faith. Thank you! (And sorry for the essay).

[@weston.weston]

Like a young child, Christian says every 2-3 minutes, "what does this mean?" she doesn't seem to know or understand much although she's been a Christian her entire life. Oh my goodness, it is embarrassing, it makes her look dumb.

[@ponypublications]

California is cool because we have basically every geographical experience within driving distance of each other. (Not saying this is unique to Cali, just that I personally think it’s fun.) We’ve got the ocean, we’ve got the big city, we’ve got the mountains, we’ve got the historic red wood forests, we’ve got the agricultural towns, we’ve got the flat, arid high desert where the military tests out their mysterious experimental air crafts. I live in the latter. Not much to do and lots of sonic booms.

[@anabaird3835]

IMO: We should all just be an INDEPENDENT. (POLITICALLY...not in terms of Jesus, of course).// I LOVE Dan's testimony!! Thank you! (He's like "you had me at ovaltine"😍).

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Neutrality sided with the oppressor, unfortunately, so picking a side is sometimes the only moral choice. No one should place their loyalty to a tribe above all, though.

[@MichaelJohnson-vi6eh]

i must imagine that churches would be pretty scared of bringing up controversial verses and concepts.

[@andre0baskin]

I think Syke's characterization of religion in the public square applies primarily to Christians who may classify themselves as Evangelical. Look at Joe Biden who is a devout Catholic as well as being on the political left.

[@greglogan7706]

I just listened to the 1st video of sky's interview and I can tell you it is pure deception pure deceit totally dishonest and simply griff for him to sell books - it's unreal it's disgusting

[@bobgordon5005]

I think you got your generals confused. It was general Flynn who made those outrageous comments at that conference in Texas not general Kelly.

[@patrickc3419]

I literally do not know a soul who is a genuine, born again follower of Jesus Christ who takes Falwell seriously nor thinks he is a Christian. A mystery why the two people that these individuals are absolutely fascinated with are Jerry Falwell, and Donald Trump.

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

I get the temptation to "both sides" everything because that is the framework of our media. But a big part of the faith is personal accountability to God's order and you can't both sides that. Plus, the conduct and damage is not comparable between the 2 sides.

[@anabaird3835]

It disappoints me, too, when those who claim to be Christian behave & treat others worse than most HEATHENS. But then I remember that the devil presents himself as an angel of light. But at the same time, it REALLY grieves me when Christians say justify bad behavior with "He's just a man..." or "Jesus turned over tables..." James 1:20 says that human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires". So obviously, God is God and we are NOT.

[@bethchambers6646]

As a Christian I do not want to be associated with what is currently evangelical Christianity. I see it opposed to the commandment to love our neighbors.

[@patrickc3419]

You love your neighbor by telling them the truth; what they need to hear not what they want to hear. To do otherwise is nothing more than making their steady journey to Hell just a bit more comfortable.

[@cecilwinthorp4038]

Exodus 21:16 clear speaks on how slavery was practiced in America. You will never hear it preached on but the law is clear.

[@cblazgoogle3844]

RE: Falwell passing out “his” church & university to his kids.. thank God Jesus didn’t have any kids or he would’ve passed “his” church on to them.. and I bet God The Father & The Holy Spirit would want to be on the Board of Directors🤯🤣

[@greglogan7706]

OK, first issue - Skye primarily and repeatedly uses the phrase "orthodox theology". I would like to know exactly WHO in God's name decides what" orthodox theology" is...🤔🤔 And why does that individual/ organization get to take that mantle upon them?

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The ways of the world. That’s the most cynical interpretation of “orthodoxy” - it’s the inherited traditions kept for reasons of inertia alone.

[@jonathonpolk3592]

Nepotism in religious organizations and nonprofits often happens for the same reasons as they do in secular and for-profit companies: branding. Not all board members are just yes men who want to aggrandize the founder out of a sense of loyalty. Often they earnestly believe that keeping the legacy going is the best way to capitalize on the brand for the benefit of the organization or ministry. Just look at Franklin Grahams ministries or even Liberty U. Is there any doubt that these organizations benefitted from the name brand brought through the heirs of the founders? Would they have been as "successful" if they did otherwise? Probably not. I'm not saying this to defend them, but simply to note that it's a caricature to say that the boards were just unthinking yes men. They had very rational reasons for doing what they did, for better or (usually) worse.

[@DocAdaka]

Hmm... Good point Jonathan.

[@greglogan7706]

Other than that I'm still trying to figure out what the 4th member of this group is doing since he hardly ever talks or is hardly ever addressed did they simply need a 4th member to have a little CO equal set of faces in the picture....🤔🤔 And yes I feel sorry for him for just spending his time staring out into space

[@PattyEverAfter]

He's just the tech guy.

[@BudofSharon]

💜

[@zoner737]

I think that the beauty of the truth is that the bible tells the facts good or bad

[@greglogan7706]

So the fatal flaw of course in the interview is the interviewee already presupposes an agenda that somehow God-inspired all this such that it must accurately reflect historical reality That's a pretty huge fatal flaw Skye actually should push back at that point but that is one of thw big weaknesses with his podcast despite all of the strengths

[@salimapeacejoy]

Skye's room finally looks blue today.

[@andyvisuals]

Around 1hr 2min mark... To Skye's question... " but let me ask you this; how much do you think uh, the church itself is a factor here...?" I would say the church is mostly responsible... First, the anti-intellectualism that is most of the american church despises education and to this discussion, they despise good Bible education... so they get by on really shallow, folk-religion understandings of the Bible and so of course they can't answer anybody's deep questions... they don't know any more than "I don't know... or you'll get your answer in heaven someday..." They've willfully chosen to be lazy and dumb when it comes to understanding the Bible and its intricacies. And then too often on the other side, because of the nutty fundamentalists, a lot of people also ignore learning about the Bible deeply (in reaction to the folk-religionists and their simplistic b&w thinking), and so they can't help with people's questions either. But the root of the blame lies with lazy, fundamentalist american white christians who've been butchering and misusing and misinterpreting the Bible now for centuries.... (ironically but completely blindly asserting that they're the 'defenders' of the Bible! - those people, especially the loudest, most belligerent ones, have been doing the Bible and the Kingdom of God the most harm for far too long. May more and more people forsake them and their ways.)

[@mdl8210]

Wa wa wa let’s feel sorry for white privileged males who have billions of dollars. I’m going to shed a tear right now, after I go vomit from hearing Phil say that. Go cry for the women who were raped and victim blamed.

[@Fallacyfinder]

I hate to say this but... this show is so biased.. the only people that don't want to see it are the ones who are getting their itching ear scratched.. It's incredibly obvious it's become left leaning(while trying to appear "in the middle" to help subvert evangelicals to a more culturally acceptable place. I mean let's pretend truth was the goal, why isn't anyone who represents the horrible white conservative evangelical they are actually criticizing, allowed on. I mean someone that would actually challenge them? Not go along with their main thesis. It's all people flowing down a similar stream. It's a divisive, passive aggressive show, with a clear agenda unfortunately. Not good for the church, but you didn't come here to challenge yourself did ya? Let me challenge you. If God was on their side why so bias?

[@bradnitzsche2436]

I agree..I came across this site and thought I would check it out.. I saw on post after post a VERY biased view..saying anyone who is evangelical as "white nationalists", shills for Trump, etc... Seems that to this group, anyone right of center politically are evil conservatives...obviously by their posts, a left wing liberal progressive site,,,just admit it.

[@Fallacyfinder]

@@bradnitzsche2436 They won't, they want to maintain the "middle" view but I've watched them for years and they're liberal lol. They're just hoping the audience won't figure it out

[@greglogan7706]

Skye, how in God's name you pulled genocide out of context that's just insane...😖😢