507: Dubuque, Demons, & Defying Patriarchy (Part Deux) with Beth Allison Barr

[@brucee8332]

I’m rather ancient, and when these books came out I was the mother of teenaged acolytes in the very liberal Episcopal Church. Our adversary the devil did even then prowl around like a roaring lion, but we felt most of our battles over evil could be won by loving our neighbors, especially those who were either poor, or those we didn’t agree with and thought of as enemies. Spiritual warfare with demons and angels takes us away from real world battles with those who hurt others, and powers that tend towards injustice.

[@phoebebeiler4303]

Very interesting conversation! I was a die hard Peretti fan in my teens, and was convinced the Darkness series represented reality. I mostly forgot about them till today, listening to your podcast, and realized how much they shaped my world view back then and how much I have changed.

[@whitesentinix]

"Avoiding culpability/personal responsibility" This is another one that really hits hard for me. My parents, when they were younger, definitely fell into the hardcore evangelical, to the point where they made extremely bad decisions for the family, based on their own interpretation of their faith. Now, they are being blatantly confronted by the consequences of those decisions but refuse to take responsibility. As a result, my family had deteriorated and continues to do so, yet due to their inability to take any kind of responsibility, can't understand why things are so bad for them. It's something that I am having a very difficult time reconciling to the point of detriment. Personal responsibility is extremely hard for everyone, but why is it so much harder for people of faith? Usually the answer I get is something along the lines of "we're all imperfect, we're gonna fail, but Jesus died for our sins so that absolves us of personal responsibility"... thus turning grace into a manipulation tactic. That's a hard one to get past.

[@kamalastromwall9275]

I was just thinking about that today. My church taught a lot about forgiveness but nothing about confession or making amends. You never have to have the difficult conversations about harm that you have caused or harm done to you just forgive and poof it's gone.

[@whitesentinix]

@@kamalastromwall9275 that's another thing. Weaponozing forgiveness and turning that into a manipulation tactic. Forgiveness may be Devine, but there's not a call for a marked change in behavior, so were you actually sorry? My dad has asked for forgiveness more times than I can count, but he never made any real intrinsic attempt to change his abusive behavior. Sure he would "play nice" for a few days, then maybe ask a follow up "did you notice" style of question to make sure we did... then afterwards, he'd go right back to the same behaviors. Eventually there comes a time when you have to cut them totally lose which is very much frowned upon in most evangelical churches... but I genuinely believe it is necessary

[@vineandbranches9272]

Another awesome insight by Skye for which you Adam have added a real-world example. I too have lived in a family where personal responsibility is ignored and instead there's a hyper-Charismatic pseudospirituality that distorts God and the Bible and provides an excuse for carnal ungodly behavior.

[@whitesentinix]

@@vineandbranches9272 how do you reconcile that? How do you move past it? It feels like everything I grew up believing was either lies or manipulation tactics. I dont know how to come back from that... and seeing what is happening in the world around me, makes it even harder. Some days, I desperately want to "opt out" as they say on the Walking Dead. It's getting to be too much... and I'm glad pastors like Skye are starting to recognize all thus, but we might be too far gone. Too many people are still hurting and even dying as a direct result of this kind of spiritual religious abuse. I honestly don't know how much more of this I can take

[@Tupelo927]

@@whitesentinix I'm truly sorry you're struggling. I don't have any answers to the questions you've posed but I do have a suggestion: talk to others with similar experiences &/or with a mental health professional. Your emotions are *valid* & your health matters, Adam. Guilt, shame, despair, anger, resentment, loneliness -- not a one is lessened by isolation or silence. Recovering From Religion (RFR) is a great resource-- for believers & nonbelievers alike-- because they specialize in counseling folks that have suffered maltreatment, abuse, ostracization, family conflict, & existential crises related to religious beliefs/practices. Their chat hotline is free & confidential. Please, don't give up. You matter. ❤️

[@ArtistLynneGenevieve]

I didn't read any "this present darkness" books, but my mom did when I was about 12. She read some of it to us and I was so distressed by it! I also remember her commenting on the parts in the book that were misogynistic and blaming the victim of rape (for causing it or having a demon or asking for it in some way.) -- I was too young to work through what was problematic. I just remember feeling afraid and not liking the book! Love the interview with Beth Barr! Really appreciated her book ❤

[@elbryant1226]

I was in College when the Peretti books came out and I found it rather interesting that some of my college friends would read these books, but never read anything by C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien.

[@RMMethven]

Something just dawned on me while watching the part where you guys are discussing Frank Peretti's books. No wonder so many Evangelical parents I knew growing up (along with my own) were Anti-Harry Potter because they thought their kids would go off and play with witchcraft, they themselves were taking on what they read in fiction and applying it to everyday life.

[@nayners100]

I had forgotten about the Frank Peretti books. I read one as a preteen after my parents read it. Don’t remember much about the book but I do remember there were some news articles written in some chapters and my mother told me that meant the events of the book actually happened. Probably taught me that my parents critical thinking skills weren’t great than anything else.

[@chuckthompson5724]

The good and evil quote comes from Alexander Solzhenitsyn “The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart.”

[@hapennysparrow]

Big questions about the restrictive curriculum of this school, and rebelled. The workbooks were read the page and fill in the blank type of ibstruction.No critical thinking, or engaging kids to write their own ideas on ant topic. So I threw out the workbooks and had fun teaching kids about science, history, writing creatively, different cultures. I was called a bad influence and dismissed. I then found a job in the scary public school system. The teachers I worked with were lovely people who dedicated their lives to impart knowledge in creative ways, and realized the paranoia I had been fed was just propaganda. My kids flourished in the public school system.

[@tesserarius5899]

I read the books in middle school (circa 2007). Looking back, the main thing I think about is the person who gave them to me, and how our relationship has changed as we've found ourselves on opposite sides of the evangelical divide. The person still considered the Peretti books to be like a manual for reading the times, while I have rejected all of that (though still maintaining my faith). It's sad that we are so divided

[@iamchristyfreeman]

I read the Peretti books in high school in the 90’s. This was also combined with a non-denominational/charismatic church that focused a lot on satanism and spiritual warfare. I was terrified of being attacked by a demon in my sleep or as I was walking to the kitchen in the middle of the night to get a drink of water. It was something I really had to eat against with scripture. I still loved the books all the way up until a few years ago when I started to see how unhelpful they really were.

[@rickyjewett6082]

Good conversation. About Margi Taylor Greene : We have become a nation of angry hate filled people. Being that we have become a nation of angry hate filled people, we will elect angry hate filled politicians. Therefore Margi Taylor Greene is a reflection of what we, as a nation, has become.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

I read them in my early 20’s It was recommended to me by a coworker. I loved them and It helped me visualize spiritual warfare. Just like Christian. I remember talking to a bookstore owner who accused Frank Parretti as a sell out to the faith when he came out against the misinterpretation of his book.

[@birchtreefarm1]

I never read the Peretti books. I would have been in college when the first one came out, and I'm sure that it was talked about in our IVCF chapter, but I would have avoided it like the plague because it would have been too close to end times fiction in my mind. My exposure to that genre was the film, "A Thief in the Night" back in the 70s when I was a kid. It traumatized me to such an extent that I avoided any sort of "scary" Christian fiction ever after, including the Peretti books and the Left Behind series.

[@nikkio.9990]

Bingo Skye! "How is this helpful" is such an important question to ask... Whenever I'm around Christians who speak in spiritual warfare language I always wonder what I'm supposed to do with that information? They always present the problem, they always point out the boogeyman of the week but NEVER offer a solution....in fact being in a perpetual state of paranoia is the goal, there quite literally is no end game with them. None.

[@Solmead]

I read the books in high school in 1990, the circle my parents were in including my mom took the books almost as how to manuals

[@PatA95]

Let me put in a plug for Perretti's Mr Henry audios for kids. I had read his books years before, found them with my kids. He does Bible stories, funny voices, songs, quite good and no spiritual warfare just Bible.

[@nathanspencer9696]

I read the Peretti books about 5 years ago because several mentors talked about loving it. I honestly cringed my way through the entire series.

[@mizallan1]

“Reading Evangelicals” by Daniel Silliman is a VERY enlightening read. It includes the Frank Peretti novels as well as Left Behind and the Shack.

[@nikkio.9990]

Thanks for the recommendation

[@Cyrribrae]

The railway car up a hill is a funicular! I learned this last year from Psychonauts 2 lol

[@JG-mc9hl]

I learned that from an episode of Marta Speaks!

[@tyron302]

I remember Frank's novels! I was in middle school in the mid nineties, but I did not learn nuance at that point so I was unaware of the issues in how the bok represented current events of the time. I found them exhilarating at the time in how they brought to life spiritual realities from the author's pour of view

[@adamrshields]

I recommend the recent book Reading Evangelicals: How Christian Fiction Shaped a Culture and a Faith by Daniel Stillman It looks closely at five Christian novels and tells the story of evangelicalism and especially Christian publishing through the exploration of those novels. This Present Darkness is one of those novels (Left Behind is another)

[@veggiet2009]

I did not read the "Darkness" series of books, but I always wanted to. I don't know I liked "scary stuff" as a kid, but I didn't know if I wanted to go that creepy. When I was a teenager the Frank Peretti / Ted Dekker book "House" came out, and I read it and really loved it. But I still haven't taken the time to go back and read the "classics" in the Christian Spiritual Horror genre.

[@willnotez6976]

This Present Darkness and Piercing The Darkness was 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥.....I think it plays into alot of DCW, though perhaps unintentionally

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

Fighting others is easier than facing our own shortcomings

[@Fallacyfinder]

Ironic, The Holy Post doesn't do that

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

@@Fallacyfinder is that an unbiased opinion? Or perhaps my response isn't a critique of them specifically or just an opinion of one of the topics discussed. I may not agree with every one of their view but they are a pretty good group of people.

[@bethrossiter1857]

so true Exactly why Jesus had pointed out to the religious folks many many many times

[@Fallacyfinder]

@@JohnThomas-ut3go Punching fellow Christians in an unbiblical way on a weekly basis isn't being like Jesus

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

@@Fallacyfinder Who is punching fellow Christians? What is punching fellow Christians? I am truly at a loss as to your meaning and intent. My experience with this use of punching often comes from the idea of 'punching down'. Which is a term used to describe a power dynamic in regards to unfair attacks, critiques, dehumanizing & vilifying language. Your use in the structure of the sentence appears to me as meant that somehow, for some reason Christians should be immune from the critique of other Christians. If this is your message you are wrong. Other Christians are exactly who need be "punching" the loudest. To not do so is a complicit agreement with harmful ideology. Neither should Christians be protected from secular, community, social, or outside religious criticism. If you read the New Testament you will notice that much of Jesus' teachings were a critique of the religious leaders, laws, practices, & interpretations of his day and his religion. By his example how can one follow him and not stand in critique of the church when it deviates from his teachings and into harming the community around the church?

[@sheleavitt06]

Haven’t read the evangelical fiction that you’ve mentioned but I’ve read a few end of days fiction from a different Christian tradition and it was very engaging and great fiction that I stayed up all night reading because I had to know how it ended. There was this thought in the back of my head as I was reading “well this is one way I suppose it could happen but it still just fiction and not scripture.” Even though there were scripture verses at the end of every chapter so you could see where the author got the ideas from it was still fiction and I feel sorry for people who didn’t grasp that fact.

[@n_r49]

I remember my mom reading Peretti books to me and sisters on a long road trip. I was probably 12 or so. My vivid imagination saw demons everywhere after that. Life didn’t just happen, demons were behind it all. Not the best way of thinking of things.

[@n_r49]

44:36 - talking about how Christians blame demons and the devil for stuff that may just be due to circumstances or stupidity- my pastor just had a great sermon on that. kzbin.info/www/bejne/laSTe6CLerlsgZY Sometimes “life be lifin’” - it’s just hard. S*** happens.

[@banjoleleguy]

I led a VBS at a church whose pastor was a die-hard Peretti fan and was inspired to be an exorcist because of them. He spent all week telling me about the times he cleansed people's houses, including one that the owner was sure their house was haunted because things were moving and disappearing all the time. When he got there, he realized she had a pack rat infestation and they were stealing things and storing them in their den. He sent me home with his extra books...I didn't read them....I'm afraid of rats...

[@emilytaylor2623]

I literally just said to my mom a few weeks ago that Peretti was fiction and we can't get our theology of spiritual warfare from him. It was like I'd denied the Virgin Birth or something.

[@mynonsequitur7116]

I really like Mike Winger's series on Women in Ministry. He's one of Beth Allison Barr's critics, but his argument seems more thoughtful, researched, and gracious.

[@CatrionaCharles]

I agree.

[@SandyKH]

What you call an elevator... is called a funicular in most of the world, but in Iowa it's called a Fenelon cable car. They are popular in the Alps... there's even one in Kiev, Ukraine.

[@geoffhorswood6234]

I read the Peretti books as an early teen, and they certainly gripped my imagination for several years. However, since I was in my native UK at the time, I missed a lot of the US political/culture wars undercurrent. Not really knowing anything about the US political or faith situation I literally had nothing to judge that part by, so maybe it was easier to remember it was a work of fiction in some ways. I was totally into the idea of spiritual warfare and epic struggles of light and darkness, but my own situation was sufficiently removed from Peretti’s small-town America that it required some translation. TL;DR: I read them through the eyes of a foreign child and as I matured a lot of it seemed more fictional and narrative-driven, less viscerally validating of my childish desire to be a hero in an epic struggle of good and evil.

[@marcushayes6672]

What are the dings for?

[@AdamMaloneyknowtheway]

Ephesians 6:12 (NAS): For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. - this means the person in front of you is not the enemy. But it also means that the spiritual war is real. It does not mean we should be conspiracy seekers, but the truth is that the devil is real and the Bible says he is the god of this world. It’s always about balance. Thanks for always having a good conversation. I appreciate you guys. Sky’s best statement. “Sometimes bad things happen because you’re just stupid”. So true.

[@AndersHolmenScott]

Anyone else born after 97 who had no clue about these books before this episode???

[@dawningoftime]

Fun fact: Apparently Frank Peretti was Tim LaHaye's first choice to write the Left Behind books. Now I'm glad that he turned it down because there were spots in that book that were creepy enough.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Also the Anti Catholic story line was heavy in the chic comic book about father Alberto Rivera.

[@kelliestough3964]

I AM SO HAPPY TO HEAR TACO!

[@christinacampos3375]

Wonderful episode, all around. ❤️

[@rukh03]

I read the Peretti books when I was a preteen. I had forgotten about then til now. I remember liking them and wanting to make a similar style video game about angels fighting demons. I'm cringing pretty hard now hearing all the sketchy rhetoric I didn't pick up on back then.

[@scottylamm9673]

French fries in a wall are ok but years ago in VA a man found a beat up copy of Action Comics in a wall while reinsulating his home. It was in bad shape but still went for 300k! I bet the fries won’t sell for that 😀

[@scottylamm9673]

Read the Peretti books and they were fun but felt more like Christian comic books than anything else. I enjoyed them but I was also reading cs Lewis and others who shaped my imagination more. The larger point though about how fiction can shape thought is a good one. Christians have ceded that space to others at our detriment.

[@PatrickHiltz]

Oh man, I totally read the Frank Perretti books as a pre-teen in the 90's. And while that shaped my imagination of how spiritual warfare worked...I think the books that shaped my family more politically were books like Larry Burkett's "The Coming Economic Earthquake" and his fiction books "The Illuminati" and "Solar Flare" which in retrospect were pure anti-liberals propaganda. My dad to this day still refers to the Coming Economic Earthquake. I tried to say yes...I think it happened in 2008. But he just couldn't comprehend that the government could intervene in a way to fix major economic problems, so therefore there must be an even BIGGER economic collapse that will prove the thesis true.

[@scottylamm9673]

I was more influenced by the Hal Lindsey books in the 70s. It’s taken a long time to be able to look past that and see the Book of Revelations differently.

[@veggiet2009]

The link to the "Fantasy Novels and Satanic Conspiracies" article from religion news is now directing to a "Page not found" page

[@kamalastromwall9275]

I read both darkness books when I came to Christ at age 17 in '87 and I was a Rep voter from age 18-45, coincidence?? I have recently been listening to Brian Zahnd's teachings on the book of Revelation and I think I can finally read it without the voice of a si-fy fiction novelist in my head. 😉

[@Fallacyfinder]

So now your not a republican, why the Holy Post has helped accomplish its goals

[@hapennysparrow]

The church I attended in the early eighties pushed the idea of spiritual warfare and suggested the Frank Perriti books. I was told that the new agers had infiltred the public school system. I read the books, and read them to my children. I now cringe because I did not realize that I was being manipulated by fear into a specific world view. As a consequence, I pulled my kids out of public school, and placed them at the Christian School at that church. I taught the k-1 class and began big questions

[@Tupelo927]

If you feel so inclined, perhaps mention your current perspective to your adult children. As I'm sure you know, humility fosters both wisdom & reconciliation.

[@hapennysparrow]

To Rebecca, I am responding to your kind reply. My post was incomplete; for some reason, it was sent before I could finish my story. Immersed into that church and school opened my eyes. I became a thorn in their eyes by asking too many questions that challenged their narrative. I was called a negative influence on their school and was fired. Thankfully my children re-entered public school, and we all laugh about it now. All five of my now grown children are progressive politically, three follow Christ, two hopefully will soon. None of them are evangelical dominionists or involved in the Prosperity cult. In fact, none feel the need in our current alternate facts reality to attend church. I also dropped out after being called a baby killer and a Marxist. I've never read Karl Marx. I have read some of Deitrich Bonhoeffer's writings, and I read banned books. I am still in love with Jesus. When the evangelicals all went gaga after Trump, I could only shake my head in wonder. Being an outsider is nothing new to me. The Holy Post Podcast has been a wellspring of inspiration to me. Real, in depth discussion, intelligent analysis, and Biblical understanding has blessed me. This program is a breath of fresh air.

[@maryhamric]

Galena is one of my favorite places ever. Highly recommend!!

[@kimsteinke713]

You cannot teach that love is to hate if your foundation is to teach that loving someone is hating what they do hating who they are stigmatizing them to correct their ways that's not love. That's exchanging the truth for a lie denying your feelings of what is right in your soul Love does no wrong Love is Love should be written in your heart you shouldn't be fooled out of your own heart and what love is.

[@jtalle01]

I read those, and one of his others, Prophet, that I enjoyed. I'll say it did influence my vision of what spiritual warfare was like, but I'd say the series that hit me harder there was the Angelwalk series by Roger Elwood.

[@troysmith6860]

You should do a podcast on Dan Brown's book. The Da Vinci Code is basically "Frank Peretti Syndrome" for a new generation of believers.

[@her16825]

Praying for the conversion of all Protestant denominations back to the church. Love you guys 💞

[@themattyg]

I started reading one of Frank Peretti’s books, but I couldn’t finish it. I do know that much of my extended family’s “faith” seems to have been influenced by those books. Ugh.

[@Hogwa5hGaming]

Read Peretti books when I was in high school. I took them as an interesting set of stories, but it didn't make me think of society as evil as much as keeping tabs on my own behavior and what situations I let myself get into. I read a lot of fiction (Lewis' Space Trilogy, LOTR, etc...) as a teen though so the content really didn't hit me as trying to be factual. They almost had a dystopian feel to them that made it obvious to me that this was a fantasy book and not really an accurate depiction of our own world..

[@jgunn03]

I read the beginning of "This Present Darkness" because my ma had the whole series of books. SHe said it was good, so I started reading the first book intending to read the whole series. BUT . . . . . .the whole thing about the carnival being demonic and the angels and demons guiding the cars and stuff . . . . . . I couldn't 'buy' it. It all just sounded so silly, esp. considering I had been to numerous circus and carnivals up to that time and had never seen any demonic stuff or demoralizing stuff as portrayed in the book. I didn't believe in demons for a long time after that. In my mid-20's, I once again revisited the ideology of demons. But I never really made a decision one way or another. Now I'm an atheist and think it's all bunk.

[@childtracy]

Wait, there is a hill in Dubuque! You have disturb my WNC vision of the great plains. I need to see more of the Great Plains.

[@JG-mc9hl]

Dubuque is along the bluffs if the Mississippi.

[@beatallmighty58]

I did but I never took Franks books as gospel.

[@MichaelJohnson-vi6eh]

going to the art question. The 10 stained glass windows in my church installed between 1875 and 1945 are beautiful and are absolutely not biblical. They are based on romantic period poetry and paintings and sculpture from the time. Its a great place to start a study of a particular scripture but not the end. There are lots of stories that people believe about angels and devils and heaven and ghosts and whatever that people believe are in the bible that arent.

[@PensiveSojourner]

I heard that in Dubuque the west side of the city sells no liquor.

[@annajohnson4758]

Come to St. Joseph, MO!!

[@onegirlarmy4401]

Anna from Luke 2 is another woman from the Bible that is often ignored. In my head canon, she's barren, because a woman with children wouldn't have been able to spend all those years in the temple. The God who sees women saw her rush up to a baby in the courtyard and desire to be near him. Then, God blessed her with the ability to recognize her Savior as that baby.

[@mobabyhomeslice]

My goodness! Reading through the negative reviews of her book on Amazon is quite laughable. People *really* don't like their views of gender roles being questioned or threatened.

[@hamm5fam]

I would love for Skye to write a book about spiritual warfare!

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Don’t forget “He came to set the captives free by Rebecca Brown who has very popular book in the spiritual warfare genre.

[@virginiacrosby4160]

My Chiropractor has a McNugget Happy Meal on display occasionally. It's more than 10 years old and looks ready to eat

[@acarter4865]

Funicular, the cog railcar that goes up a steep hill

[@salimapeacejoy]

Marjorie Taylor Greene should be worrying about who is controlling her.

[@bdanielnikolich1]

I don’t know? I read Peretti’s books in the 80s while I was at a small Christian College in a small town. Wasn’t that one of the settings for the books? Small Christian College in a small town? I saw some weird stuff while there. I am sure it had to be some kind of demonic influence.LOL!

[@jjburton]

Read Peretti books in junior high. They certainly captured my imagination as did his other books. The closest connection I remember hearing was that of the angel talking to Daniel about being delayed by another angel/demon (Daniel 10:13-21).

[@patrickc3419]

So yes or no; no talking in riddles or trying to say something “witty”, Will Phil Vischer support if indeed Roe vs. Wade is overturned and abortion is outlawed and criminalized?

[@bethrossiter1857]

Oh my goodness I soaked them up but not until my 30s. I was more influenced as a kid by CS Lewis- because science fiction/ fantasy books were like bread to me and Peretti was like dessert! But I always understood it was fiction. It did influence my spiritual practice in prayer for a Time. But I realized Jesus prayer " on earth as it is in heaven " is enough. The only spiritual Realm we affect is our own- the Lord takes care of the rest. I grew in a small town Baptist Church, but also was exposed to the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church and the seventh day Adventists through family friends and neighbors. So I don't think I really understand the logic of the white Evangelical church today and all the crazy conspiracies they champion. I was too busy looking at my own sin, to worry about evil elsewhere when I was growing up. But honestly? I didn't really consider the spiritual battle for the soul of the church, until 2016. And I'm still reeling. How did that happen? How is it still happening ?! insinuating that we ourselves are not like "those folks" is a dead end to nowhere, and even I fall victim to it sometimes... But Jesus. But Grace. But God. this is where I Want, where I Need, where I Live. and it's the only place to be :) Thank you for your welcome topics! I laugh and weep and wonder with you every week xoxo

[@salimapeacejoy]

Psalms 24:1 The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. So first of all the Earth and including the borders around America is the Lord's and every person therein is his. How can it be evil to help those in need?

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

McDonald's food notoriously dies not rot. They stay perfectly preserved.

[@pressia07]

Can holy post do a review over nrb 2022

[@bkucenski]

Proverbs 31 is the foundation of any discussions about women. Imagine telling Child A to go tell Child B to come in for dinner and Child A saying to Child B, "welp, I seem to have dominion over you now." If Child B doesn't come in for dinner, why wouldn't you go first to Child A to see if they passed along the message like you told them to.

[@kimsteinke713]

slavery. The southern defense of slavery extinguished the reformist zeal, affected evangelical theology, and made the South a closed society. Meanwhile many new intellectual currents flowed through the North. After the Civil War, Darwinian evolution and other aspects of modernist thought, such as German biblical criticism and a new epistemology, divided northern evangelicals between liberals, who embraced modernist thought, and conservatives, who rejected it. At the same time industrialization and urbanization elicited different reactions from the two: the modernists sought structural reform to help labor in its conflict with capital while the traditionalists continued to believe that the conversion of individuals and prayer would heal the rift between the two. Evangelicals today debate these issues, but many of those Protestants who identify with modernist thought and social reform no longer call themselves evangelicals. Toward the end of the century conservative ministers associated with the great evangelist Dwight Moody formed Bible societies to defend the traditional religion against what they saw as the apostasy of the modernists. Taking from the Princeton seminary the idea that every word of the Bible was “inerrant,” or absolutely and literally true, and from John Nelson Darby, the English sectarian, the prophecy that civilization was in an inevitable decline and was heading toward the great battle of Armageddon in which Christ would return to restore His kingdom in Jerusalem, they fashioned an essentially new religious amalgam that eventually became known as fundamentalism. The fundamentalist-modernist conflict that erupted after World War I took place among the Baptists and Presbyterians but affected all Protestant

[@veggiet2009]

I like Phil's new backdrop, but I feel like it's competing with Skye's... too much dark blue on the bottom of the screen

[@julieguenter3283]

I know why the fries were in the wall. Here’s my theory: the mason putting in the tile was ticked off at the home owners and decided to stuff food in the wall to attract vermin…of course that doesn’t explain the towel unless he just wanted to ruin one of their towels. 😜

[@veggiet2009]

I can't argue with that logic

[@thezenlu]

Construction workers will leave food debris anywhere, and sometimes they will just shove the remains into the wall instead of cleaning up on site. We opened up a space in the wall and found soda cans and wrappers in that space. No McDonald's though.

[@kimsteinke713]

Good topic you're always speaking whan I'm thinking I was just telling my neighbor the other day how evangelicals are acting out the fiction books of Left behind and she was like oh that's my book so many people I believe take this stuff serious because it's the men that teach the Baptist and the southern Pentecostal churches they read these books and then they go to church and they mess it all in they haven't been to school they don't know eschatology or theology and they haven't lived long enough to have empathy and compassion and they invent stuff like XJ therapy y'all need to remember we also had the gay panic before that and that's where demonology really came in cuz I was a gay person coming out of the closet and when I did my family thought I was a demon where did they get that Jerry Falwell and let's go back to Pentecostal revivalism it got very strange but anyway yes Phil you're the wise one because we're wise because we were 60ish anyway Kim from Texas great show.

[@wilfredmancy]

The chips in a towel could be a superstition. A childs' shoe is one I've heard of.

[@greglogan7706]

The idea that Frank peretti was not reflecting the reality that he believed and was endemic in the evangelical ethos is insane it's super disappointing for Phil to let him off the hook he bears culpability as well as all the evangelical leaders that's where the spiritual darkness is in the evangelical pulpit... And Phil letting him off the hook is simply spiritual warfare that fills actually engaging in assisting darkness

[@Sonnyd8926]

Phil is a joke and making fun of other Christians like skillet is not a good look at all, do your homework before you make fun of people this whole podcast is a joke

[@Tupelo927]

What do you mean by "...is a joke?"

[@trojanbitbasher]

Panda Express sells American food.

[@kristinapresson5975]

❤️ all the Dubuque ❤️ 😆

[@Fallacyfinder]

On todays episode of White Evangelicals are bad-

[@lisareed5738]

Yes, real all the Left Behind series in my 30s

[@gracenotes5379]

I hardly think Ephesians 6:10ff. is written in veiled language. Not withstanding the often silly blaming of Satan for the consequences of our own foolish actions, it is still true that "...our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Understanding that, our posture should be one of defensive readiness, "Therefore put on the full armor of God..." and offensive participation, "With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people...." I get that it is a problem when we claim to know more about the invisible realm than we really do, and that we can make ourselves look extra foolish in the process. Nevertheless, I would not mock 2 Kings 6:17 as the work of an over-active imagination.

[@claudekansaku]

Panda Express is American food, not Chinese food.

[@stargate2395]

So y'all just gon' side step the elephant in the room? Really?

[@Fallacyfinder]

You know you don't have a good argument when you have to talk about feelings for the majority of the conversation on a book that's supposed to be a case supporting an argument. Its kind of a stereotype and the bible wasn't opened a crack. Beth never really engages in critique of her book in discussion or debate, she just goes on these shoes that kiss up to her. Looks like the Holy Post is endorsing another liberal concept once again.

[@ZZ-eg7to]

Phil, you are the liberals!…lol