549: MLK, Black Voices & A New Book on Lent w/Esau McCaulley

[@mateoreed]

Love this quote.... at 18:18 "I am tired of being distracted and trying to convince people who have no desire to love us well that the people that I admire are worth listening to, or that it even matters what they say. In other words, I don’t have to convince determined cynics, for me to be convinced about God´s value of the disinherited peoples of the world. "

[@kamalastromwall9275]

I loved Esau's quote about: If Jesus doesn't disagree with you, you are either perfectly sanctified or you have created an idol.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Sad reality - far too many people when confronted will assume they’re perfectly sanctified.

[@anabaird3835]

Yeah...that is something Im really going to think about very seriously & honestly after Im done watching this video& get real honest with myself about it in every area of my life & every inch of my messed up mind & wretched lil heart!

[@ericanthony8641]

I am a Baptist, but as a musician, I have accompanied choirs and other musicians in a variety of church denominations. While recently on vacation I took Rev. McCaulley's book, Lent, as one of my books to read. I found it thoroughly enjoyable and informative. Having participated in Lent, somewhat, but not having a liturgical background, I could easily understand elements and explanations without any problems. My father, a now-deceased Christian educator and minister, would say, "It's based in scripture and not tradition." And that's why I like it. Thank you, Rev. McCaulley.

[@claudekansaku]

I do like and appreciate the spit format. But, I do very much enjoy and value the team's post-interview discussion and processing like last week with Timothy Gombis and in the past with Gregory Thompson in HP#467. Thanks for the ongoing, thoughtful Christian commentary! 39:10 - "I don't want to shade anybody else...But when we sing sometimes in the Black Church, you can tell that they've been through something. We're not reciting lyrics, we're recounting an experience." -Esau McCaulley

[@kaycocco9867]

I love that message about Josiah. Prayers and Blessings for both of you. Thanks

[@lisad1623]

Yes! I found that very encouraging.

[@harvinater3]

esau, thank you for what you do. God Bless you and your work.

[@peggyhalvorsen2427]

Thank you for introducing me to such excellent guests! I have looked for more lectures by Esau McCaulley and I've really appreciated his viewpoint and insight.

[@StumblingThroughItAll]

Esau, I have continued to appreciate your voice of reason through the past few years. I don't agree with everything you say, and you may verry well put me into the category of Christians you have written off, but your desire to call people to hope and joy and away from bitterness is a gift. I have had experiences with some brothers in Christ that focus so heavily on the racial wrongs of our context, that it feels as though they have been blinded in seeing me as their brother in Christ. When I ask questions to clarify, or work out a biblical understanding of how we handle race in our current context, I am met with contempt and ridicule. As a specific personal example, I have posed sincere questions to a brother who sits on the board of our local seminary and is deeply knowledgeable about race in America (you very likely know him), but have been over and over again treated quite poorly by him in response. Kindness seems to go out the window, and my questions simply go unanswered. I do have an honest question when you talk about "mainline" beliefs for black Americans. Do you see times when "mainline" beliefs in a group are actually wrong and unhelpful and should be spoken out about in truth and love? For example, I have heard at nauseum the statistic that 80% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. You and Phil have made it quite clear that you believe that was a wrong action by the 80% majority, and you speak out about it. In fact, to put my cards on the table I was one of those 80% in 2020. Similar to your experience, I had many friends, believers and non-believers who sent me videos of Phil's non-mainline takes because they found them to be a correct assessment and good ammunition to tell me I was wrong. As a converse example, per Pew Research, over 60% of members of the "Historically Black Protestant Tradition" (65% of AME) believe abortion should be legal in all cases. I personally see this to be a wrong belief held by the majority of a specific group, and one that should be spoken up against and may even show some warning signs of a deterioration of orthodox Christian belief to an extent. With those examples in mind, could it be that at times "non-mainline" voices could actually be stating something very true and worthy of serious engagement by the mainline? Or, to put it another way, shouldn't we be very careful to claim something is right because it is a mainline belief?

[@adamrshields]

I think his point isn’t that mainline black beliefs are always right but that you should actually seek to understand what those beliefs are not just find someone that already agrees with you for the purpose of argument. Abortion is a controversial topic and one of the reasons why so many in the Black church are not hardliners on abortion is because of the racism of the prolife movement. That doesn’t mean that the black church is not concerned about prolife issues, but that they tend to think more broadly about prolife issues, not just about birth. For instance Black women have very high rates of maternal death and some of the prolife bills have no exceptions for the life of the mother.

[@StumblingThroughItAll]

@Adam Shields Two thoughts: 1. Show me one state in the entire US that does not have a life of the mother provision in their abortion restrictions. 2. Considering the deeply racist history of the abortion industry in this country, I have a hard time taking seriously the idea that the “racism in the pro-life movement” trumps it. It just doesn’t make sense at all when you actually think it through.

[@adamrshields]

@@StumblingThroughItAll here is an article from a Catholic magazine about the problems of the wording around life of the mother provisions. Again just listen to Black voices about racism within the prolife movement. You can say it doesn’t make sense all you want but there are many examples of black voided talking about racism within the movement. I would recommend the Witness podcast Pass the Mic. I think they have at least two if not three episodes on their mixed feelings about the prolife movement largely because of racism within the approach. As a specific example you can regularly see prolife groups creating false dichotomies where there are billboards or speakers that frame abortion as the “real racism” as if issues of police brutality or criminal justice reform are something that should not be worked for because abortion exists. Other prolife groups have argued against whole life approaches as a distraction. Which again ends up saying racism within public policy is not important because abortion exists. So again they is an approach that does not draw black voices to the movement.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@StumblingThroughItAll there are very vocal sections of the pro-life movement that are in it for the virtue signaling and don’t care much about actual policy - they want the wedge issue. Those that want to support unpalatable ideas like racism will latch on to popular ideas and use them, like a hermit crab using something that’s not theirs as a shell, something to hide behind. The pro-life movement has been hollowed out to just being an anti-abortion movement - where are opposition to the death penalty, support for life-saving medical care, support for the poor so that they’re not forced into abortion by economic necessity, and so on. What has been put in the place of the body of being pro-life, other than that shell of opposition to abortion? That’s why the pro-life movement and racism are overlapping - the pro-life movement is just a facade for other conservative policies, and conservatism protects the existing social order or even tries to go back to an even more racist previous social order.

[@StumblingThroughItAll]

@@adamrshields It looks like you forgot to include the article link. Send it over and I'll have a read, although I likely have already read it. With regards to the Pass the Mic podcast, I am very familiar with it. It is a great example to me of political ideology blinding some to injustice in their pursuit of "justice". I have had direct communications with Dr. Tisby and find that he regularly overemphasizes political ideology over sound Christian doctrine and finds racism in anything that does not align with his own particular political lens. He has allowed his oppositional politics to blind him to significant injustice that his own political party is implementing in real time. For example, Dr. Tisby constantly references one of his hero's to be Fannie Lou Hamer, but I have noticed he has entirely skipped over her unflinching stance towards abortion as racial genocide. I have asked him directly about Colorado's (my home state) new abortion law which was signed in 2022 and uses the exact same logic and language as the Dred Scott ruling, which stripped an entire group of human beings of any and all claims to inalienable rights to be protected by the State. He had absolutely nothing to say about it...nothing. The very same approach that was used to deny black American citizens basic human rights is being photocopied and used at this very moment, yet those who are so sure they would be on the "right side of history" 100 years ago don't even see it. It is truly a wild turn of face to see in person, and one that has severely limited my trust in what he has to say. I am very skeptical of his perspective to say the least. I am happy to discuss this more if you would like to. As a separate reference point of podcasts that I believe walk in the tension of practicing orthodox Christianity, while also holding to some progressive views, I think Church Politics podcast with Justin Giboney and Southside Rabbi with KB do a far better job. They regularly address issue of racism alongside the evils of abortion. They don't leave their orthodoxy at the door to cheerlead for a certain political party, and for that, they have my deep respect.

[@jolenesnow1032]

My only feedback on the splitting I'd tbt show into 2 shows is that the theme song needs something more for the interview week. The show starts, I am singing along....Skye and Phil and the Holy Post...and then it stops as I sing along alone ...and sometimes...

[@ValerieAlford]

Great interview. Very interesting and informative.

[@hapennysparrow]

What a lovely conversation. I learned so much. And Phil, I adore you. Please do not stop engaging with the nonsense out there. For every antagonist there are so many more who cheer you on. God speed.

[@rogermartin8342]

It is perhaps revealing that people who dismiss Dr. King's views on the basis of "flawed" theology rarely do the same for Ben Shapiro, whose theology could hardly be considered orthodox Christianity.

[@yjk5737]

I think most American Christians, both "black" and "white," tend to be more conservative on race in the sense that they believe in conserving race and typically treat racial categories as natural. Especially those that haven't lived outside the U.S. for any length of time. They are generally united in that sense.

[@lisareed5738]

Great interview and loving the new format!

[@anabaird3835]

Appx 15:25-15:45 and appx16:35: These are EXTREMELY POPULAR defenses I hear from my friends who 100pct HUGELY support TRUMP & are very eager to vote for him a 2nd or 3rd time.

[@norenemanning4686]

Great dialogue as always. Learned something new.

[@veggiet2009]

I'm liking this new format, though I don't like waiting til Friday to get it

[@sbenefield76]

Same! Much easier to share amazing interviews like this one when they are standalone.

[@Epok17]

34:31 in this debate on racism, you could think of it as a sport. We get treated like the ball when we should referee. And at best we get hired as coaches lol.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Unfortunately people of color tend to get used as any and every position in the business except that of spectator - they’re expected to do all the work.

[@davidmorton5949]

I like the new format, but I miss Kaitlyn or Skye doing the interviews...

[@bkucenski]

When Ben Shabibo says "this isn't how we remember MLK" he's speaking on behalf of the Klan.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

If you consider King’s letter from jail, the KKK isn’t the enemy, it’s those who do not want to hear about the problems and would prefer an unjust peace. In other words, Mal Shapiro.

[@bkucenski]

​@@Justanotherconsumer Oh, my goodness. Read that one again. Every black Civil Rights leader says the same thing: the KKK is evil, but you know they're evil. It's the white moderates who are snakes pretending to be friends while working against you by "compromising" with racists at the expense of black people. Sheesh. Literacy is hard my friend.

[@thebishopoftherailway4719]

@Ben Kucenski Ah yes, those supremacist j**s Kanye has been talking bout. Seriously take a break from the internet. Mr Shapiro may be wrong on lots, but saying he’s the Klan makes you look like a child.

[@bkucenski]

@@thebishopoftherailway4719 calm down, klan

[@thetruest7497]

​@Ben Kucenski absolutely correct.

[@kentklostreich95]

Let's go in our minds to a small town cafe on the Great Plains. Here we will find older, white people. They will be discussing the weather, their grandchildren, and whether the coffee is fresh. Within a few minutes, we may very well notice features of the conversation that are less about concern for accuracy of content, and more about a folksy kind of internal knowledge. It is a bonding ritual. Does this resonate with you? It is just that this type of behavior happens with every subgroup. We need to take a long hard look at the internal knowledge of the African-American community. It is especially pernicious because it is aided and abetted by liberal white people, some of whom are kind-hearted, but some of whom are looking for precious little pets to fawn over. This mindset is actually understandable when we think about the mistreatment of black people in times past. It would make sense for black parents and grandparents to warn their children about the challenges that they may face. But times have changed and the warnings are starting to look less like advice and more like manipulation and a retreat into an alternate reality. Everything really can break if we do not stop the verifiable nonsense of this kind of thinking. So we have people like Michelle Obama saying that black people need to be afraid of going to the grocery store. Does this make sense? What is the data on interracial violence? You already know it. And you know that you know it. And you know that there are reasons why people are not correcting the nonsense narrative coming from the left on this topic. How many people have been brainwashed into thinking that they have to focus on the feelings and self-esteem needs of certain groups at the expense of everybody else? It is not for no reason that this movement is pushing the narrative that everything is white supremacy. Logic and objectivity are now suspect. My God, how did we let this happen? How do you permit a guest to say that he will not engage with certain ideas that are directly related to the topic at hand. Of course it is going to feel unfair to him when people ask him to lay down his privilege and deal squarely with countering viewpoints. It is going to take so much time and work to undo all of the damage caused by the desire to avoid conflict.

[@thebishopoftherailway4719]

I’m aware of MLK message. That’s why I don’t celebrate his messages, even if he achieved a good thing.

[@thebishopoftherailway4719]

May i ask where exactly McCaully proved that the consensus of black voices agrees with him, or that the majority consensus must be right? And yes, his ideas do come from the Frankfurt school. If we go to American slave era we wouldn’t have to ask a black person if slavery was an institution described in law. Of course it was, and anyone could tell you that. But saying that its an institution isn’t the same as saying racism MUST therefore be hidden in our institutions today. The only evidence given for it is differential outcomes between groups, but they never explain why it must be racism. African immigrants perform far better then black people who have lived in America for several generations. Black people in America were building up economic and generational wealth at a fast rate from the end of slavery onward, in spite of the challenges of being freed whilst lacking education, and living in a war shattered south, (many black people died within the first few years, of starvation disease and cold) and then later laws of segregation. Black people lost this wealth after the 1960s, and haven’t regained it since, so their lack of wealth isn’t because of slavery or Jim Crow, since they had wealth during this time, and lost it after. Basically, instead of ‘Listening to black voices,’ we should probably have debates and discussions with experts on both sides, not just consulting the masses to hear how they ‘feel’ about the world. Like, seriously have Voddie Baucham discuss this issue with McCaully, so you can stop straw-manning conservatives. You do it all the time.

[@thezenlu]

Where did you get this 1960's line where black wealth magically disappeared? Look through the history of this nation and you will see multiple situations where when black wealth and equity is even assumed to accumulate the white majority didn't stand for it. Either a mob came to kill them (Wilmington 1898, Slocum 1910, Elain 1919, Tulsa 1921, Rosewood 1923, Detroit 1943), laws came down to take it away or passed to bar access to those means (exclusionary zoning, black zoning, Jim Crow, red lining). And if you want to see how it is as far as the institutional issues that linger; look for stories of black families refinancing a home, getting lowballed and then having a white friend refinance the home for them and get a higher figure, look at the numbers on the "stop and frisk" policy in New York and how often those folks stopped were people of color compared to white people. Look at the demographic figures for welfare and see how even though there are far more white peopleon it, it's only stories of black use that come from the lips of those looking to denounce the program... This idea of institutional racism only gets to live on because the people of today didn't learn to reject the biases and jealousies of the people of back then, they just learned to live with the limits their anger can take... Learn from actual history not the made up one pundits feed you to keep you ginned up and mad. Actual ugly sad history that makes no heroes and shows that all men are created equally capable of sin, cruelty, and sadness.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

“Both sides” implies that there’s a simple division of yes or no, and there are a whole bunch of Black people with a variety of views. Baucham is an outlier within that community. It’d be like talking about space exploration and including a flat earth advocate just to have “both sides.”

[@thebishopoftherailway4719]

@@Justanotherconsumer You need to start somewhere. I don’t see how Voddie being an outlier means he can’t be considered an authority on the issues. He spent the first years of his life growing up in crime ridden LA without a father, and was into black nationalist ideas as a young adult. He isn’t comparable to a flat earth advocate. You need to prove that simply listening to minorities voices gives correct understanding to an issue, and that its what the majority of the minorities are saying, and then prove that majority equals truth.

[@reenchanted]

A few things there: if you look up the statistics, the majority of black Americans do agree with Esau. He doesn’t need to prove that in every interview to be true. Second, the fact you mentioned that black immigrants seem to fair better in America than slave descendants in America itself does strongly hint to the effects of generational wealth or the generational lack thereof. If an African man today has enough wealth built up in his family to come to America, he is likely wealthy and educated enough to not be struggling the same way that an inner-city child might be with very limited local job opportunities and an underfunded school. Third, it is a historical fact that legally enforced, systematic racism did not end with slavery. Look up Jim Crow, redlining, segregation, etc. These were not subtle implicit racist things. They were overt and some were protected by law until just before I was born. And I’m only in my 40s. If you want to look at when the real starting place for most black people in America finally got something close to even footing on purely legal terms in America, it might be the 1960s or 1970s, not the 1800s. And even then, they were starting a race massively behind while everyone else had been running at full strength for all those hundreds of years. Phil’s video on Race in America covers a lot of this. Now on top of all that, we can start to address things like racial biases that persist, things like unequal sentences for black people vs. white people who had committed similar crimes, of hiring practices that hurt black jobs, of people that continue treat black people unfairly while claiming they aren’t racist. We can argue and disagree about what extent that has hurt black people and black communities, and perhaps have a friendly debate in good faith on what degree the effects are. But to say that systemic, legal discrimination against black people was an idea started by a bunch of German guys… as Esau said, that’s just hilarious. No one living through Jim Crow needed to read some German philosophers to see that they aren’t able to do a lot of the same things white people were able to do.

[@thezenlu]

@@reenchanted well said!

[@PastorJ-qb2ts]

Yo, there is some major gaslighting here.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Helps to provide specifics if you want that allegation to stick. Lots of people using the word “gaslighting” as just a generic term for “I don’t agree with what they said.”

[@austin5640]

these dudes overemphasize race too much. kinda sad that so many people are lead down this rabbit trail

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Does any discussion of race make you uncomfortable? There’s a sociological term for that…

[@austin5640]

@@Justanotherconsumer nothing wrong w/discussing it but when it consumes your life then it's a problem. discerning people can understand the difference

[@cuthalionxvi]

@@austin5640 It was the topic for the interview. I don't think discussing race in an interview about it is overemphasizing race. Doesn't seem like it's consumed either of their lives, either. McCaulley even pointed out that you can't spend your whole life arguing about it, even within the context of talking on the subject.