938. What Are The Strongest Arguments Against Conditionalism?

[@AMessengerofTruth]

Ezekiel 28, famous passage about the devil's fall, and this is the last verse(after the torture with fire): “All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever. ” Ezekiel 28:19 The "drinking from the cup of the wrath of God" during the final judgement lasts a long time: “For just as you drank on My holy mountain, All the nations will drink continually. They will drink to the last drop, And become as if they had never existed." Obadiah 1:16 The tormenting "day and night with no rest" is the punishment, but clearly, God's Justice will be satisfied and evil will cease to exist.

[@NorthernNessa]

Is there a group around I can get connected to to talk about this with? I have been in my own kind of torment about ECT, and I don’t understand how people who think it’s the case aren’t running around like there is a fire and screaming at everyone! And the decision to have children was extremely anxiety filled. How could we create more people who may be in never ending pain. I can’t reconcile it with the mercy of God, what ended up happening is I couldn’t really believe God was merciful I just was afraid, and just whatever he says goes. Which is more just fear without love. The conditionalism provides an answer, I can fear and love God. I’m so relieved that this is what the Bible really teaches. I have so much more peace in the conditionalist view. Do you think people are unwilling to admit it because they don’t want to appear “weak”? Because it is associated with a slippery slope to universalism? I just don’t see how that could ever happen with people who truly look to Gods word.

[@kai_553]

I totally unds how you feel. Back when I thought ECT was the truth, I couldn’t sleep for most of the nights. I’m current leaning more towards conditionalism than ECT because I believe and hope that it is the truth. Although ECT and conditionalism both have strong scriptures to support their stand, conditionalism makes more sense because I can reconcile with God being both loving and just. If ECT is the truth, I can’t help to think that he is just but absolutely not loving. Whichever one is the truth, we will only know after we die. But as long as I’m still alive, conditionalism provides peace in my heart which I believe that it’s the truth. As for universalism, I can’t find scriptures to back it up so I don’t think it’s biblical but hope that there’s a chance for it to happen! I not sure if there’s a F2F community for conditionalism because I can’t seem to find one in my country. But I’m happy to see more people believing in conditionalism by just searching for articles and videos of it ✌🏻 Regardless of which view is the truth, I think we all agree that hell is definitely not a place we want to be at.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@kai_553 Universalism is very much biblical but it's difficult for most to see when looking through the lens of so much Christian tradition and indoctrination that has existed from well over 1,000 years. Conditionalism while less evil than ECT it still falls short of God's desire and what He ultimately wants for humanity. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES all (people) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Isaiah 46:10 At the beginning I declare the outcome; from of old, things not yet done. I say that my plan shall stand, I accomplish my every DESIRE (including His "desire" for all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth). Isaiah 55:11 So will My word (1 Timothy 2:3-4) be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I DESIRE, And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it. These scriptures are undeniable and while I understand that there are other difficult scriptures (in light of Christianity's dogmas) that have to be re-exegeted properly, scripture does NOT contradict scripture. Scripture must always agree and if there is disagreement, the disagreement exists in our own interpretations. Universalism is the only belief system where God gets all the glory and will be the undisputed winner in the end. If conditionalism is true, then death is never swallowed up in victory which would contradict what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:54.

[@AT78146]

I absolutely agree, that's been the hardest for me recently. But the way I've been seeing it is I've been looking at the different forms of belief in Jesus's day. And how wrong they were about Messiah and also how some got some things right. (Pharisees believed in a Resurrection at the end of the age) But ultimately, they were divided until Jesus arrived with proper teaching to clear things up. So when it comes to beliefs that aren't commonly held and so on, I try to compare it to how things were with Jesus. Because when He comes back, we'll all know who was wrong about what. And I don't think that it was a coincidence that we got to see something similar play out in Jesus's first coming. Cheers brother, God bless everyone who reads this and those around them, in Jesus name 🤍✝️🕊

[@infinityApologeticsClips]

Amen brother Chris

[@tomvondra2632]

the eternal punishment of Mt 25:46 was a problem for me until l discovered that the term used is "kolasin", meaning to cut off, not basanos, meaning to torment

[@bluesclues3169]

Eternal punishment proves annhilation. Read Romans 6:23. The Death is eternal.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@bluesclues3169 If death is eternal, how can it be swallowed up in victory?

[@bluesclues3169]

@@therealgospelofchrist6823 are you talking about 1st or 2nd death? Both are different.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@bluesclues3169 I'm talking about death. It matters little about the order because both refer to death. The point is that there can't be death of any kind if death is swallowed up in victory. Romans 6:23 does not prove annihilation at all because we know that there is a resurrection of the just and unjust. It says, "for the wages of sin is death"; (but all have sinned - so all die). This is what Paul affirms in 1 Corinthians 15:22, "as in Adam, ALL DIE" - and we die because of Adam's sin (Romans 5) and the sin curse was passed on to all of humanity but the verse continues by saying that the same "ALL" will be made alive in Christ. Now I know there are proponents of 1 Corinthians 15:22 who believe that being made alive "in Christ" is exclusionary but that is proof texting. If the "in Christ" is exclusionary, then how and why is the "in Adam" inclusive of all humanity? How did everyone die in Adam? What did anyone have to do die in Adam? There was never a prerequisite for anyone to die in Adam. We was born that way and there isn't a single person in the history of humanity that had anything to do with their own birth. So just as there was nothing we needed to do to die in Adam, there is nothing that any of us can do, to avoid being "in Christ". Christians are the only people that add unnecessary requirements for God's salvation to limit who all can receive it but Paul continues his theme by declaring that Christ will put down all rule, power, and authority. Christ put all of His enemies under His feet. How many people really believe that? If everyone is in subjection to Christ's authority how can anyone not be in Christ? The very scriptures affirm that after all of of these events occur, God will be all in all. How can God be all in all if most of the world is eternally annihilated? Most of this bad understanding comes from people's misunderstanding and deception about the words eternal and everlasting. Both of these words come from the Greek word aionios and this word does not mean eternal or everlasting. There is no eternal punishment or eternal life. These are bad Christian misconceptions. The phrase "eternal punishment" in the Greek (aionios kolasis) actually refers to a period of time when people will be cut off from life. The people who aren't cut off from life receive age-abiding life (not eternal life) in the kingdom of God where they reign with Christ for 1,000 years. 1000 years is not an eternity even though it is a long time but this age ends. The reason why the rest of the world is cut off is because they are still dead in the grave awaiting the resurrection to judgment. When the age of judgment begins, believers will continue living because they were made immortal in the resurrection of life. The actual original languages of scripture never mentions eternal life or anything about a hell. These are dogmas and ideas created by religious people who were in no way connected to God. At some point in history, men in power took control of the "church" because religion was very effective in controlling people. The church today has virtually nothing to do with God.

[@bluesclues3169]

@@therealgospelofchrist6823 That doesn’t make sense. First or second. First is temporary and second is eternal. You have the wrong idea of Jesus defeating death. He defeated death for all those who put their faith into him, not those who put their faith into other gods. Roman’s 6:23 talks about the second death, because after a Christian’s dies into comparison of a non Christian they get eternal life. If it were talking about the eventual death, it would not say eternal life. That’s right. Adam sinned, he has No forgiveness according to the bible and is under Gods wrath. Roman’s 5 talks about how we shall die, nothing about being in hell for all eternity to be burned in fire after? What your trying to say, is that death is going to be destroyed, so there can’t be any death. But that’s your misconception. Death is for unbelievers, and they die before death as it is written in Revelation, and then death itself is destroyed so there is no coming back from it. God never said Adam would be eternally tortured. The early church, never said sinners would be eternally tortured. Think brother think, about God tutting your MOM or family forEVER in fire, and all they can do is scream. Does that sound like God to you?

[@yobabybubba]

*Someone please help me with this* - I watched several videos today on conditional immortality and my view has changed. I love it. Thank you God. When I shared it with my wife (Not just to be a skeptic, but honestly searching like myself) she brought up Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" And also Matthew 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast in hell fire." And there are other verses like this. How do you answer these questions when it comes to conditional immortality and these versus? Thank you..

[@texassmokingmonkey]

So glad that the Most High is opening more people's eyes to this important truth about who he really is, and is not. Now you are on a journey, my friend. The light has come on, for you, and it's such a blessing. But this is something you will have to dig into, to chip away centuries of concrete built around this grievous falsehood. You may know it's true, and see God in a wonderful new merciful light, but you will be resisted at every turn, rejected, ostracized, called a heretic. Are you strong enough to take this truth with you into that fierce opposition? You will have to diligently research this, to uncover what has been buried under mainstream human doctrine for over 1,500 years. When Jesus spoke of "hell" (not a true translation), mostly he spoke using the word "gehenna," and it was a warning to the Jews of his day, about the judgment coming in 70AD, when Jerusalem was sacked and the temple destroyed. Jesus was indeed a prophet. Gehenna, the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, was well-known to the Jews as a place where horrors had been perpetrated in their past, a place of destruction. He spoke of being "burned up" like sticks in the fire of Gehenna, in the coming judgment. It was not indicative of a place of eternal torment, but of being "destroyed." Over and done. He also spoke of "hades," the Greek word for the place where the dead lie, buried. No longer living, but really and truly dead. You might watch a youtube by Edward Fudge called "The Fire That Consumes," that would be a great start. There are many mistranslations of the original Greek and Hebrew terms like "eternal," and "hell," which you will learn about, so stay with it brother! The One True God is not an unjust monster, he is a just judge, and does not punish beyond what the sin merits.

[@yobabybubba]

@@texassmokingmonkey Thank you Joe for that detailed response. I really appreciate it.. I actually just finished another video. It was called 'why I believe in Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torment in under 10 min.' it touched on many verses for this truth. the video nor what you said, I don't think really clarified and answered my question but I still believe it's true. Thanks again. I will definitely check out the video you mentioned.

[@texassmokingmonkey]

@@yobabybubba It's of paramount importance to understand that when a person ("soul") dies, they are dead. The human "soul" is not a separate entity living inside of us. It IS us. The belief in an immortal soul that lives on forever is not scriptural, it was imported from Greek philosophy. This belief is what eternal torment is built upon, because if every soul is immortal, then it must necessarily exist "somewhere" after death. But the scriptures are abundantly clear on the fact that only the redeemed will inherit, or be gifted, with immortality. Those not found written in the Book of Life will be subject to the "second death." Not granted immortality, to be tortured forever and ever. As i said, this is a journey. But just look at the simple messages we all have known for so many years, in John 3:16, and Romans 6:23. Shall not perish, BUT have everlasting life. The wages of sin is death, BUT the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life, or death (which is "forever"). The evidence has always been right in front of us, but human doctrine has blinded nearly all of us. Until the Most High removes the scales from our eyes, in his great mercy.

[@yobabybubba]

@@texassmokingmonkey Thank you once again Joe. since my last response to you I have been digging the whole time and I read a wonderful article from My pastor's son Who is in seminary. He sent it to me. Me and him discussed this last Sunday at church.. anyway my questions have been answered and it was written in this article. I'm hoping the KZbin let's the article stay here. I'll post it right after this comment so my whole comment isn't removed. Thanks again my friend.

[@yobabybubba]

@@texassmokingmonkey parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2019/05/eternal-fire-sun-and-solar-flares-why.html

[@LetsTalkChristMinistries]

He danced around the question, unfortunately.

[@infinityApologeticsClips]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 NKJV These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

[@Ben6Strings]

Conditional Immortality, in terms of the unsaved/wicked, is literally everlasting destruction. It lasts forever and it's destructive. So unless that was meant as evidence for the Conditionalist view, you got that one wrong.

[@FRN2013]

@@Ben6Strings yup, the destruction lasts forever.

[@yobabybubba]

Today I watched several videos and today is the day when my belief system has changed and I am definitely a conditionalist. So now when I read Bible verses that skeptics post I have a completely different set of glasses on and it supports conditionalism.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

Bad translation.

[@ladillalegos]

The why he is a Calvinist? It’s also not Biblical, mostly philosophical and completely logically incoherent

[@alexrobbins9067]

That’s exactly what I’m wondering 🤣

[@justanother240]

Calvinism is very Biblical. It accounts for both the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God. We have no good way to harmonize the two.

[@stevendrumm4957]

I believe that Chris is right about BOTH conditional immortality and his Calvinistic sotorieology.

[@colin_priest]

Yeah, it should definitely be concerning when you’re going against thousands of years of Christian orthodoxy. It’s sad to think that all these great men of God were wrong, but a couple guys in the 21 century - they’re the ones who got it right. Yeah, definitely unsettling for sure.

[@cbtam4333]

If it makes you feel any better, before Augustine, the conditionalist view was the dominant view, and the eternal conscious torment view was the minority view among Christians. Politics, history, culture-all had their impact on which view was dominant. If you want truth, you still have to go back to the Bible.

[@NorthernNessa]

I heard in passing that Luther was something of a conditionalist, anyone know?

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

Great men? You mean the men that slaughtered "pagans" for not converting to Christianity during the Crusades?

[@isaacbamfootoo5902]

Hello

[@hondobondo]

just wave your hand and all the scriptures go away. convenient that your show is only a minute

[@Ben6Strings]

Too bad you seem to think he is the leader and final say over Conditional Immortality.. Edward Fudge has lectures over an hour long on the topic. This belief has been around MANY years, even back to the early church. Hate to break it to you, but conditional immortality FAR outweighs eternal conscious torment in the Bible. In fact, not one single verse holds up to eternal conscious torment.

[@jeffallanday]

@@Ben6Strings I agree. Its a steep mountain to climb to turn the ship around on this issue. Sadly I hear the idea of ECT brought up by atheist all the time to say God is a horrible God.

[@texassmokingmonkey]

"Philosophy" meaning "common sense," that the Living God would keep flawed humans alive ("eternally living") for the purpose of unrelenting torture. Really? The God of true and fair justice? Fiery torment forever and ever with no prospect of an ending, as punishment for rejecting his grace and mercy?? No. This is not in the character of the Most High God.