What Are Your Thoughts On Hell And Annihilation?

[@samnewton3358]

I think annihilation is still eternal punishment because although the experience is not eternal, the consequence is, but it could go either way. Whatever it is, it's just

[@Kramer-tt32]

Burning alive for eternity is just? Who let you out of the lunny bin.

[@chadgaming8071]

@@Kramer-tt32 there is different levels of punishment so the fire could be e metaphor but people are punished based on what they have done. after their punishemtn based on their life they cease to exist.

[@Kramer-tt32]

@chadgaming8071 I'm amazed you know more than some pastors I know is the south. I was told as a child that hell is eternal fire. They then read us Bible verses that support that claim.

[@andrewd2114]

All though I dont totally agree with his points I do love how he said "no matter what the state of the afterlife is God is just" I think that's the most important take away I've gotten from studying this topic is that regardless of what hell is God is just!

[@TheCruiseDog]

The beauty of his statement is that justice will prevail regardless of our beliefs. We might have conflicting ideas towards our eschatology, but in the final result we all agree that whatever we thought, God got it right.

[@JasonJohnSwartz]

The punishment of sin is death. The dead will be raised and judged. Some to eternal life and others to eternal death in the lake of fire which is the second death. The term eternal punishment means God will not change his mind forever on that judgement. If it was an ongoing conscious punishment it would be eternal punishing. Edward Fudge has some really good scripture based evidence for innihalation view

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@JasonJohnSwartz If the punishment for sin is death and Jesus died for the sins of the world, wouldn't by your logic suggest that Christ should still be dead? There is NO such thing as eternal punishment. It is a gross translation error.

[@storba3860]

@@therealgospelofchrist6823 If the punishment for sin is Eternal Conscious Torment then shouldn't Jesus still be in Eternal Conscious Torment?

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@storba3860 Yes if we insist on using unscriptural words like eternal.

[@McPhan86]

It's punishment forever, as in lasting forever - final. Not necessarily active punishment.

[@vaniswatchingyoutube]

hey there! I'm curious to know what the difference between lasting and active punishment?

[@bob-zz2pd]

@@vaniswatchingyoutube I think an active punishment is eternal torture. But a lasting punishment is something that will not be changed. Those who don't believe in God will receive a final death I guess is what he's saying. Our death (those who believe in Christ) isn't permanent because we will be in Heaven.

[@Matthew567Gospel]

@@bob-zz2pd after many years of being taught and believing that hell is an eternal suffering by flame, I now see that it's not biblical. Jesus said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" but why? Because they will see Abraham, Issac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but won't be allowed to enter and will be thrown out. So the weeping and gnashing of teeth is because they can't enter, not because they're being burned alive. Also, how can unbelievers be tormented for eternity if they can't be immortal apart from God? Eternal life is God's gift, a person can't suffer forever if he's dead. Dangerous doctrine that makes out God to be unimaginably cruel and turns many away from faith

[@stewbeefdamastamind5719]

Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too

[@InitialPC]

@@stewbeefdamastamind5719 thats ot, hes since showed compassion by taking our sins on the cross, how we respond to that compassion is on us and not him

[@dynamicloveministries334]

Having no consciousness forever can be a punishment that last forever.

[@user-ch4ex3yy4l]

True but it lasts for less than a nano-second bc you don't know you're being punished bc you're not concsious of it.

[@Theresia66]

But you'll never have a conciousness again

[@dynamicloveministries334]

@@Theresia66 Exactly, that is eternal punishment.

[@Theresia66]

@@dynamicloveministries334 i meant to reply to the person above me, but i see somehow the tag didn't work. Sorry for bothering you 😅

[@dynamicloveministries334]

@@Theresia66 no problem lol

[@robertobinkyman]

The wages of sin is what? Death or eternal torment? For God so love the world that... whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life but not what? Perish or suffer eternal torment? Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul.

[@aarondescott5797]

I totally agree with this. You can even look at this from a philosophy standpoint, seeing that God did not create all things to exist perpetually. If you split it into a dichotomy based off of reason, and a said Cartesian system of dualism, then they must cease to exist, for those who believe will be made to live to the fullest, and the direct opposite of such is not existing. I believe I fall in line with this school of thought.

[@arcguardian]

I figured eternal punishment is a part of the second death.

[@aarondescott5797]

Jack Of All Trades well we do know that it exists. That is one thing that we can see. We believe in the full nature of God and man, the Cartesian Dualistic nature, of all things contained therein would suggest that Heaven and Hell do exist to both the gift, and the detriment of our immortal souls. We can see all of these things through the knowledge imparted upon us by the Holy Spirit. However, you are correct in your presumption that not knowing is all which we can know. The word ‘αίτιος’ is existent with the scriptural narrative. Such a word is mistranslated as eternal, yet it means “unknowable.” Therefore, we as believers must come to the conclusion through reason and logic, by using the ψύχε instilled within us, to test what is good and what is perfect. What is reasonable and what is true. That is how I came to such a conclusion, sir. And if you have not the faith to believe on anything relegated to the scriptural codices, I suggest you to move along sir, and just leave this naïveté to we foolish and bitterly stubborn peoples.

[@aarondescott5797]

Jack Of All Trades I am only smart because the Lord-by acts of severe mercy, and slow and steady procession- made me this way. I can credit nothing to my own intellectual prowess, but instead, can perceive the truth behind everything. Coming from Judeo-Christian background, and now a Neo-Jewish beliefset, I can now see that the reason for blood sacrifice is ultimately for the seriousness of the livelihood of a wretched mankind. We were in sin, yet Yeshua redeemed us through his blood, upon the cross so that we may be washed clean, justified before all the world. Hebrews 10 says that animal sacrifices would never be enough, therefore, the sacrifice that mankind needed was human, made possible by the only one who can live a perfect life, Yeshua HaMashiach, prophesied as Immanuel by the prophet Isaiah many a year ago-God in totality. However, this man-slaughter which had to occur could not be achieved by any mere mortals, but had to be achieved by the spotless sacrifice-Yeshua upon the cross. Yet, this is all but for vanity, for certainly you have heard this, or an iteration of it afore, but being stiff-necked as the Israelites were in their Golden-days, you cannot see to see, for your eyes are blurred by the pride and inconsistency which comes from man, not from the father. I pray with all fastidiousness and assuredness, that you believe some day. It need not be today necessarily, but I pray that your eyes be opened brother, for I care about you enough to go through the grammatical throes so that you may someday see to see.

[@aarondescott5797]

Jack Of All Trades, there is nothing average or orthodox or fundamentalist about my mindset, or the faith that I have, friend. Not a thing has been brought to me that I cannot know, or should not know. There is not a thing which you can say which will turn or deter me from what I know is the truth. Do not compare yourself to me, for you know me not, just as I know you not, and cannot fully understand your situation, neither can you mine. If I were to say, “I know your thoughts, because you are just like me,” I would be a liar, for every human being is different, each human being has a differing psychological output. So I am nothing like you, if you have disbelief, you quite obviously can see, yet you cannot see to see. There is an impasse in your thought, wherefore again I shall say that all is vanity, for you are set in your ways, and I in mine. Albeit, this conversation should just end. Yet, in order that His name may be glorified and edified through my online conduct-and patience with an unbeliever-may more be said, and may all be understood by myself.

[@ModernMozart1104]

God bless Frank for being open minded, honest, and for speaking with love.

[@daman7387]

I heard it that "eternal punishment" could mean the punishment lasts for eternity, like of you die, there's no coming back from that. You're dead forever

[@greenergrass4060]

Thats how i understood it too. You get thrown in the fire lake, get destroyed, and then BOOM, you no longer exist. Theres no coming back, youre dead forever and ever Still sad though

[@IMTHE0LD]

That is true and this principle is applied in our legal system aswell, where the death penalty is the highest form of punishment not because of the amount of time that the person is conciously tormented but because of the years of life that person lost, so that is the punishment!

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

I guess that means death isn't swallowed up in victory.

[@careyjohnson4008]

​@@therealgospelofchrist6823what does your comment mean ? Just asking because it's confusing.. is it sarcasm ?

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@careyjohnson4008 Scripture affirms that death is swallowed up in victory but that would seem to contradict the idea of being dead forever which the OP had suggested. There can never be victory over death if billions of people are locked in that state for all eternity. That would seem to make death the victor.

[@benjaminchuawenbin]

Hello guys. I am not sure if I have replied to some of you in the comment section here in this video, if I have, here is my apology. I know I have replied to many of your comments ridiculing ,even being rude to you guys and even talked condescendingly towards your views on hell. And also forcing my views on what hell is and whether eternal or not. I wanna apologise to all those whom I have replied and I am sorry for those whom I have offended, whether knowingly or unknowingly, and hope you guys can forgive me. Ben

[@DK-zl8rw]

God bless you for your humility. Not many people apologize, even christians

[@ModernMozart1104]

You're a lot more self-effacing than most people on youtube. It's good that you are passionate about the Word. Keep reading but do so with an open mind my friend.

[@PracticalFaith]

If the wicked are burned up and cease to exist, never to be remembered again, isn't that an eternal punishment?

[@LogosTheos]

Cole Perkins You can't punish someone who doesn't exist.

[@PracticalFaith]

@@LogosTheos Right, but the effects of the punishment are eternal. When someone gets the death penalty we don't complain that they only go through the process of dying for 5 or 10 minutes. Their punishment is being removed from this life.

[@LogosTheos]

Cole Perkins An effect cannot be eternal. Only temporal. Annhilationists make up some crazy definitions to support their doctrine which is one of the biggest reasons I don't buy it all.

[@PracticalFaith]

@@LogosTheos An effect cannot be eternal? It seems like that undermines the traditional view as well. The wicked are sentenced and thrown into the lake of fire, and there they suffer the effects of that sentencing forever. Whether conscious or not, the effect is eternal. Honestly, I haven't completely turned loose of the traditional view of hell, but I don't see any logical biblical problem with the wicked ceasing to exist at some point.

[@FirefighterAliveJC]

Let me ask you this. What would be the point in being a Christian if the alternative is to just simply stop existing and no longer have any consciousness whatsoever? If that’s the case, living a life of sin and all it’s indulgences would have practically no consequence. Doesn’t make sense!

[@1206chaos]

Knowing that God will always do what’s right. God will always do what’s best. Even when faced with a decision that there will loss of life. People don’t give him enough credit or care about how hurt he is. I try to think about God being hurt or crying over people hurting each other or some tragedy. It makes me sad that not many think about God and how he feels and if he’s doing ok. Love for a Father and many don’t treat him like a Father but a vending machine or the wish god. I make it a habit to not to be always asking God for things in prayers. I’ll save them and put them in one prayer. I don’t want my prayers to always contain asking of him. It’s annoying. I don’t want to treat my Lord like that. Peace be with you all. 🕊️

[@danielcartwright8868]

I'm surprised he picked that scripture when the conditionalist answer is readily available (the effect, not the experience, is eternal.) He's probably heard the response before, but then it would be nice if he steal-manned the opposition and responded to their interpretation, rather than simply asserting his own.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

But then death is not swallowed up in victory if there are still people locked in that condition.

[@nathanhaines1721]

Matthew 25 doesn't mention death forever, but does say " but the righteous on to eternal life." A life of eternal punishment is still eternal life. Loss of ego forever would be an eternal punishment.

[@Hetkanookanders]

lets pray for wisdom an truth!

[@tamitha20]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. when you have Jesus, you have everything. he's the reason why you breathe

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Amen

[@Christ60]

@@tamitha20YES, IM NOTHING WITHOUT JESUS

[@oreocarlton3343]

there are plenty of Bible verses supporting annihilationist view he didnt touched upon... however, eternal torture or annihilation, Gods judgement is right because judgement is wrong compared to what - and compared to what is Gods judgement wrong? Compared to ones emotions to the tought of eternal torture? God is always just.

[@prokletyrozhlas1270]

God has given us a sense of justice. We know what is evil. And hell is evil.

[@SG-jv5zi]

Eternal life is the gift of God.... where in the Bible is it promised to the wicked or unbelievers... I'll wait

[@RestlessMonarch]

Exactly

[@arcguardian]

@@RestlessMonarch Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. He can only offer it to the wicked because not one is good... no need to "wait", serve The Lord this day.

[@Charles-93]

Romans 4:5

[@arcguardian]

@@Charles-93 amen.

[@hondotheology]

You're changing the definition of "eternal life." Eternal life is not "eternal existence." Stop lying

[@stewbeefdamastamind5719]

Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too

[@marcusmuse4787]

1 peter 4:6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Sounds like a 2nd chance)

[@croakyjake]

Jesus wouldn't go into details about the worm not dying or fire not quenching if it was simply annihilation

[@Christ60]

Also the parable that he tells about the poor man Lazarus and the rich man who just ignored him everyday as he begged and begged, Lazarus went to paradise and the rich man was in hell being tortured asking Abraham just to give him a drip of water because he was so thirsty and tortured, but Abraham said, The chasm has been fixed, there is no way from hell to heaven once your there, Jesus makes it very a big point not to play games in this life, that this is real life and we must care for our lives and the ones around us

[@alldayfacts-178]

But He said nothing about how long that state of existence would last. The Lake of Fire is the Second Death and both death and the grave will be thrown into it. God can kill BOTH body and soul in hell.

[@ABC123jd]

Jesus uses the same language that Isaiah uses to describe dead corpses. Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

[@robfox4418]

There are stronger arguments for Annihilationism. Those used for "hell as unending torment" have unfortunate characteristics of weakness, non-context, and misinterpretation. I find it interesting that once Annihilationism is seriously considered, two seemingly unrelated verses ("scriptural texts") become connected: Luke 17:28-30 "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot-they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all- so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." Revelation 14:9-11 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Do you see the connection?

[@LogosTheos]

Rob Fox No. Luke is referring to people who are alive. Revelation is referring to after death.

[@yobabybubba]

*Someone please help me with this* - I watched several videos today on conditional immortality and my view has changed. I love it. Thank you God. When I shared it with my wife (Not just to be a skeptic, but honestly searching like myself) she brought up Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" And also Matthew 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast in hell fire." And there are other verses like this. How do you answer these questions when it comes to conditional immortality and these versus? Thank you..

[@storba3860]

​@@LogosTheos And the Beast has yet to be identified so you can't definitively say it's the fate of all who don't believe.

[@marcusmuse4787]

rev.21:11-15 the final judgement or the 2nd death is speaking of annihilation of death and hell otherwise God can't be considered merciful or loving. And I know he's merciful and loving.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@storba3860 The beast is humanity.

[@TomorrowisYesterday]

Eternal punishMENT not punishING

[@chris-nj3vg]

Some philosophical arguments against eternal torment and for annihilation: Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ. Judicially, the doctrine of eternal torment is inconsistent with the Biblical vision of justice, which requires the penalty inflicted to be commensurate with the evil done. The notion of unlimited retaliation is unknown to the Bible. Justice could never demand a penalty of eternal pain for sins committed during a mere human lifetime, especially since such punishment accomplishes no reformatory purpose. Cosmologically, the doctrine of eternal torment perpetuates a cosmic dualism that contradicts the prophetic vision of the new world, from which sin and sinners have forever passed away. If agonizing sinners were to remain an eternal reality in God’s new universe, then it hardly could be said that there shall be no more “mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away” (Rev 21:4)

[@Matthew567Gospel]

Well said, I like all the points you made. Even our earthly, often corrupt government bans cruel and unusual punishment and Christians want to advocate that the perfect and holy God that created the universe condemns people to the worst possible fate that not even the most brutal and malicious dictators in history could cause unto others. Not only is eternal torture unnecessary, it's just evil. Arguments by Christians that hold this view such as "those people brought it upon themselves" and "it's justice for sinning again an infinite God" are completely unconvincing and contradict everything the bible teaches about life after death and eternity.

[@chris-nj3vg]

@@bernabei1997 I agree! I should have given the source though: "Immortality or Resurrection" by Samuele Bacchiocchi PDF freely available online.

[@nashwalker7]

And also where the majority of scripture speaks to death not torment. This idea of eternal torment has more to do with Greek mythology than it does scripture.

[@rightsidecrossrev]

Best rebuttal I’ve heard yet! Thank you.

[@Yariel-Abril.30.98]

Wow! Excellent my dear brother! Thank you so much for standing for truth with such sound AND biblical arguments. Thank you thank you thank you.

[@ABC123jd]

"If you're dead and you have no consciousness, you're not really being punished." I cannot fathom how he thinks this is a sensical statement. Does he think that lethal injection isn't an actual punishment, since all it does is kill someone? Of course being dead is a punishment. It's the most common form of punishment in all of human history for the most heinous crimes.

[@Loislikes]

People don't understand also, that we were not created to be separated from God NOR were we to be eternally destroyed. This idea that we need endless torture to have a punishment seems a bit much. Humans and our spirits were MEANT to live and WANT to live. We try every day to avoid death and pain that would lead to death. So I think the punishment of eternal death would be a severe punishment considering it was not meant to be in the first place. It is literally UNNATURAL for us to be exterminated, but it could be a consequence for denying God.

[@jackshadow325]

Amazing that so many bible experts are unaware that the word "eternal" in the Greek actually means "age long" and is referring to the coming age: the life of the age vs. the punishment of the age.

[@ProfessorBCH]

The speaker equates "eternal punishment" with "eternal punishing." The conditionals argument is very simple: Eternal punishment is has exactly the same eternal consequences as "eternal redemption" in Hebrews 9:12. Eternal redemption does not mean that we are being redeemed repeatedly for eternity but that we have been redeemed and that condition will last for eternity. The same concept is evident in Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 5:9 which both refer to "eternal salvation."

[@edwardking1312]

An eye fir an eye was OC justice - eternal torture far exceeds that and Hebrews 8:13 says the OC is obsolete. So eternal punishing is a Pharisee teaching - leaven indeed and its leavened a lot !

[@waxbruh5965]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name

[@alexreid2393]

Robert Elder Indeed, it will be a terrible time for them while on the Earth. No rest day or night: “In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.” Revelation 9:6

[@wetti2004]

It is important to use bible translations, which are near to the original texts, as for example Rotherhams emphasized bible, or even interlinear bibles, which translate and explain word by word. If we do so, we will explore, that Jesus didn't say (in Matthew 25.46) that some will go to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but to AGE-DURING CORRECTION.

[@tomm6167]

That's exactly right. A lot is riding on this: In the dozen or so verses where hell, the lake of fire or destruction is said to be "eternal," "everlasting" or "forever," it's based on the Greek word _aionios._ If you google "aionios" you'll find many opinions about its meaning. There are excellent reasons to believe it should be translated "of an age." The adjective _aionios_ is derived from the noun _aion,_ which means "eon" or "age." Eons and ages are long but *finite* periods of time. The very literal Rotherham's Emphasized Bible version translates _aionios_ as "age-abiding." Young's Literal Translation says "age-during," which means during an age. And here's what Koine Greek expert and popular Bible commentator William Barclay said about "punishment": "The Greek word for punishment here [Matt. 25:46] is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but _remedial_ punishment." --William Barclay, _A Spiritual Autobiography,_ Eerdmans, 1977, pgs. 65-67.

[@wetti2004]

@@tomm6167 Thanks for your comment. Another point is, that there are several afterlife places as sheol, hades, gehenna, tartarus or the like of fire mentioned in the bible, but none of them corresponds with the pagan, non-scriptural, blasphemous concept of a so called "hell", as a place where a vindictive God pointless tortures unbelievers for all eternity.

[@greenergrass4060]

Conscioiusly burning in hell forever is still technically being alive.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

Correct, so those in hell have eternal life just like the righteous supposedly.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

One point of eternal torment in a literal HELL is, it is a great deterrent. But here are some scriptures speaking of Hell; Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.

[@bossmass1668]

😢 Jesus said; "If u love Me keep My Commandments", so read this; We have to obey God's Ten Commandments, and keep the Sabbath Day Holy, not Sunday (day) but Sabbath Day on Saturday it's on the Seventh Day of the week amen amen and amen ❤. The Sabbath Day for the people of God, so if you not belong to God then you don't need to keep the Sabbath Day Holy). Wait judgment Day and u will see what happen next. 😢 . . . . . . . . . .

[@joukeelsinga2513]

To be consciousness means to be alive, to be alive means not to be death. This fact alone already suffices to debunk traditionalism.

[@Loislikes]

This is true. Unless God is so cryptic in what he calls life and death, most civilizations would say consciousness is life. If you are AWARE, than you ARE and have life.

[@DManCAWMaster]

Well Frank I would consider annihilation eternally punishing. While you wouldn't be aware of it your still forever punished by having your consciousness ripped from you and being not just forbidden from seeing God but from even having an experience. Personally I don't believe in a afterlife so I think regardless I'll be annihilated. If I had to pick right interpretation and one I like more I'd choose Universalism

[@PrinceJes]

DManCAWMaster Well that won't happen

[@tamitha20]

you don't believe because you are Satan's child

[@martybreeden6116]

I pray that the Lord place's you in a position to see the truth. There was a time when you were NOT, but there will never be a time that you will not be again....You are an eternal soul!😉😉😉

[@Strongisland435]

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess....

[@jakestevanja1304]

I agree with your first paragraph. Not being able to have our consciousness which created and given by God is The eternal punishment. It the separation from God.

[@cbtam4333]

The confusion exhibited by otherwise intelligent proponents of the traditional view on what constitutes punishment is mind-boggling. For them, punishment only counts as long as the person is consciously experiencing the punishment. So the death penalty, assuming it is not accompanied by a lot of torture, can never be a serious punishment. Death by lethal injection, for example, involves only a few seconds of mild pain consciously experienced, so it’s no big deal. The fact that the person has to forfeit his life does not count because he cannot consciously experience the needle once he’s dead. This view of capital punishment as insignificant because of the inability to consciously experience the punishment once dead flies in the face of not only God’s system of morality, but that of every human system of government, godly or ungodly, that has ever existed. Capital punishment has always been considered the most serious of punishments because it deprives a person of that which is most valued by humans-one’s own life and existence-regardless of the fact that one can no longer consciously experience the dying process after death. Downplaying the seriousness of capital punishment in this way is nonsensical and highlights the fatal flaws of this view. The view of the duration of capital punishment being only temporary and not permanent because the person once dead can no longer consciously experience the method of death he was subjected to is likewise irrational. If death, the cessation of life, the prevention of being able to live on Planet Earth IS the punishment, it is permanent so long as the person stays dead. From our vantage point as physical beings subject the the laws of the material universe, that’s as good as permanent. Of course, from God’s vantage point in eternity, physical death is only temporary so long as the person can be resurrected back to life. That’s why the Bible sometimes refers to death as sleep; we can’t wake up a dead body, but God can do so rather easily. Unlike capital punishment in the physical realm, the penalty of death as God’s judgment on unsaved sinners at the end of the age is not a death from which a person can ever be resurrected. It is a permanent penalty of death which lasts forever. That’s what makes this punishment an eternal punishment. The Bible nowhere requires conscious experience of punishment to be eternal in order for the punishment to be eternal. It does, however equate eternal punishment with death. Death, which necessarily requires the deprivation of conscious experience or existence, is precisely the point of the punishment. As the ultimate punishment for sin, the second death is the wholesale extinguishment of any possibility of life in any form forever. This is why the Bible always contrasts the eternal punishment of death for sin with the reward of eternal life for those who are saved. “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23.

[@dericksoans7138]

What about the rich man and lazarus ? The rich man was in torment and wouldn't annihilate.

[@ws775]

It's a parable of the religious losing out on the promise of Abraham and the gentiles receiving it.

[@HerveyShmervy]

That is actually sheol, pre hell which is also called "Abraham's bossom" where everyone went after death before Christ gave the only way to heaven

[@roderickcruz5234]

They were in hades, the place of the dead, holding place of rest for those in Christ, and a place of torment for those unbelievers while waiting for the time to face the white throne judgment. No one has gone to heaven except the One who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

[@InitialPC]

the lake of fire annihilates, the rich man was not in the lake of fire, the wicked are only thrown into the lake of fire at the end of days i missed the part where armageddon already occurred

[@danielbrowniel]

I dont see any part of the passage that suggest annihilation is impossible.

[@nicolaslafitte6371]

Eternal punishment? A punishment that lasts forever? The death penalty is a punishment. whose effects last forever. Could this be a way to interpret Matthew 25:46? However, apparently punishment could be translated 'torment'. But the death penalty is a sort of torment (though a temporary one) whose effects are forever.

[@ABC123jd]

No, punishment cannot be translated as torment.

[@alwaysadawg6488]

If the price of sin is eternal torment and Jesus paid the price for our sins, then why is he not being eternally tormented in Hell? If you combine that logical issue with the fact that the original Greek NT text describes afterlife punishment as temporary and corrective, the man-made doctrine of eternal punishment is soundly refuted.

[@dmak07_11]

What about the second death, you can't be alive and dead at the same time. I thought hell was like jail And the second death was your execution by lake of fire? Can someone explain that topic for me? Thanks

[@ParadiseLordRyu]

I guess it means the fires of Hell burn away at your soul until it’s swallowed whole and you are no more.

[@dmak07_11]

@@ParadiseLordRyu I can understand that point. I just don't understand why people have to feel literal fire burning them for eternity.. or their eternal punishment. I agree with the stand point we are both at but its still an issue among many Christians... Only God is eternal, He is an all-consuming fire.. it's all centered around God. He is the Alpha and Omega from beginning to end..

[@vaniswatchingyoutube]

Yes, I think it depends on you understand life. one way to understand you question could be: in the bible, it says that All life on earth comes from God. (Genesis 2:7, "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.") (Job 33:4b, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.) However in hell/hades, individuals there have chosen to reject God, to reject God as the source of life. It is also a place of God's wrath, not life. That is why Hell seem super scary, even to be as a Christian. I can't understand what it must be like, where there is no grace to be found, no life in that place.

[@vaniswatchingyoutube]

But the Bible also says that we are Body, Soul and Spirit. Even when the body dies, our Spirit remains. Hence we still have our own consciousness in the after life. So this consciousness could be the "life" that you are talking about. Hope this helps u!

[@chris-nj3vg]

Mainstream Christianity teaches it because they are confused. Satan wants to misrepresent the character of God. God would be a moral monster if eternal torment was true.

[@ABC123jd]

"Even the death penalty is a punishment, but it's not an eternal punishment." So does he think that the punishment is the process of being killed or the pain that one experiences while dying? If a person is executed and then wakes up, do they just let him go? The punishment is being dead, stricken from the land of the living.

[@Loislikes]

I won't say God unjust. But I think we should come to understand a God of Love and mercy. How can we as humans, think it unjust and inhumane to eternally torture someone day and night for all eternity. How can God less Merciful and Loving than the beings he created. Even if his ways are not ours, when it comes to torment and such, I cannot see why that would Justice to torture someone without ceasing. There has to be some end to it. It is hard to understand honestly and makes you question if Hell really is endless torture or if it has an end.

[@TheKingsguardProject]

Annahiliationism is an interesting concept. Whether or not its true or not its not something to divide over as a church. One reason to support it however would be the fact that hades or the place of the dead is a separate location to the lake of fire. (In Revelation Hades is thrown into the lake of fire). This means the place where unbelievers go when they die is not the final location. From their perspective it is eternal as there is no passage of time as well being separated from all goodness. That is hades. But at the judgement they will be brought out of that place to be sent into the lake of fire. It makes no sense to keep them in one tormenting prison, judge them and then send them to an even worse one. But to send them into an eternal prison (i.e a prison outside time) to be held until judgement and then receive the ultimate punishment, death by holy fire which doesn't just burn flesh but soul and spirit (agony of that would be unimaginable) would make much more sense. But like Frank said God will have the most just punishment ready

[@youngnixx88788]

Manuel Ngochinya The rich man burning in Hell in Luke 16 was far from annihilation

[@ThruTheUnknown]

J RAN 85 How do you know he didn't end up completely burning up? What was Abraham doing in hell?

[@youngnixx88788]

ThruTheUnknown 1. How do you know he wasn't sent to the moon? Don't sin by violating Prov 30:5-6 KJV 2. Abraham wasn't in Hell, he was in the heart of the earth (Matt 12:40 KJV). There was a great gulf fixed that separated Hell from where Abraham was.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

J RAN 85 1. Exactly so to speculate any further is to read into it what's is not there, which you are guilty of. 2. Correct they were both there!!!

[@youngnixx88788]

ThruTheUnknown 1. Wrong. Here's what the Bible declares: the rich man was burning in Hell, and Hell is an eternal place; hence, burning eternally. You are sinning by ADDING him "burning up", which appears no where in scripture. 2. Wrong again. Abraham was in paradise which was also located in the heart of the earth (Luke 23:43/Eph 4:9 KJV) Go read the Bible.

[@PracticalFaith]

I've wondered, if Hell is eternal conscious torment, why was that fact left out of the OT?

[@InterFinumRerum]

It wasn't: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2 KJV There are other examples but this was the first that came to mind.

[@PracticalFaith]

@@InterFinumRerum That's the only one I can think of too. Would contempt refer to other's view of them? Which could be forever even if they are destroyed? In any case, shame and contempt is much different than burning in eternal fire.

[@InterFinumRerum]

@@PracticalFaith How could someone have a view of everlasting contempt for someone who has been annihilated? How can one possess everlasting contempt and shame if they do not exist. I believe in light of the new testament we can see that this is referring to what Jesus spoke of at the ending of mark 9:43-48. Another old testament example just thought of is Isaiah 66:24

[@InterFinumRerum]

@@PracticalFaith "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" Isaiah 14:12‭-‬16 KJV People in hell here, it seems they are describing seeing Lucifer.

[@PracticalFaith]

@@InterFinumRerum Can we have contempt for Hitler? Even though he's dead? Isaiah 66 speaks specifically of literal dead corpses, right? It doesn't mean those corpses were tormented. I actually don't know where I stand on this debate. But I think the conditionalist case makes some sense

[@1206chaos]

The punishment is consciousness torment. Earthly minds will not understand supernatural heavenly ways. It’s going to be a whole new life. Jesus offered his love and those that reject out of pride or hate shouldn’t get benefits of someone who weeps over his name.

[@Loislikes]

So you admit that the 2nd death is actually Eternal Life in torment? Consciousness cannot be Death, if you are aware. What makes a person alive, is in fact consciousness and being aware. I don't' know why that is hard to understand.

[@roderickcruz5234]

For God to allow unbeliever to be punished in the outer darkness/hades for a time, then face the white throne judgment and sentenced with the second penalty in the lake of fire, to be totally destroyed, is just and righteous of Him to do so.

[@Birdbussa]

But the death penalty is an eternal punishment in the sense their is no coming back from it and it lasts forever

[@wisedyes]

So those who do not feed the poor and hungry and fail to minister to the sick will be punished with eternal punishment?? Salvation by works???

[@gricketson]

conscious after death=immortal soul doctrine which is pagan and not biblical. curious if frank has looked into this further, :)

[@ws775]

Does not sound like understands the correct concept of a soul.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Sorry this is so long, but...Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The word eternal in the above verse is the Greek word aiōnion, it means eternal. In Revelation 14:11 it says, "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” In Revelation 20 we find this, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER... Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. In Daniel 12:2, “…and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth (the dead) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The words everlasting in this verse come from the Greek word ō-w-lām. It means eternal. Some say only God is eternal, yes with no beginning, BUT God Himself promises eternal life to all who will trust in Jesus. AND as the scriptures above prove, He promises eternal suffering to all who refuse Christ. The soul that sin shall surely die; this is a reference to the second death, which the Bible clearly says is the Lake of Fire. AND again, as stated above involves eternal "torment." You are right when you say ONLY those who trust in Christ will receive eternal life, but those who reject Christ will receive their reward, eternal suffering in the Lake of fire. Would a God of Love send the unrepentant sinner to hell? In Hebrews 10:26-36 it says, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God...For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Some say that their smoke rises forever and NOT their torment, but you know that is not true, it says, "the smoke OF THEIR TORMENT rises forever." Some say death in the bible means a state of unconsciousness. Not according to Jesus. He talks of Lazarus and the rich man dying and both lift up their eyes and find themselves in a state of FULL consciousness. Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, BUT the rich man, by his own words in torment in flames. Some say the person who dies isn't aware of anything, the rich man in flames said, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus over to me that he might dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue for I am in torment in these flames." Look, I wish there was no eternal Hell, it breaks my heart to think of people going there for eternity (i have family and friends who have not come to Christ) but the Bible as I have demonstrated above has a lot to say about ETERNAL punishment in the Lake of Fire. Think of the story of Uzzah. God had told the Israelites to move the Ark of the Covenant. They were instructed to put it on an oxcart and move it to a particular location. God earlier had stated that "No one but the Levites were allowed to EVER touch the Ark." Well in this particular Bible account, the ox stumbled, and the cart tipped and the Ark was about to fall, BUT Uzzah WHO was NOT a Levite, reached out his hand and saved the Ark from possible damage. Did God commend Uzzah for saving the Ark? NO! the Bible says, "The anger of God flared up and killed Uzzah on the spot." The moral of the story; God wants us to obey HIS WORD, and not do or believe what we think is right. Re-read the above verses and ask yourself, do these really say God will not let the person who rejects Christ suffer in hell, but will simply put them out of existence?

[@DrTodd13]

I can't believe that anyone, let alone someone I generally respect like Frank Turek, would believe that we can look at a single verse and determine dogma from it. That is just picking and choosing verses because there are other verses that very clearly talk about a second death. We should only determine dogma based on a holistic understanding of the Bible and as evidenced by the fact that 2000 years later we're still having this eternal conscious torment versus annihilationism debate, the one thing I think we can definitely conclude is that the Bible isn't clear on this point. First off, there is the question as to whether languages are even capable of making all or any pronouncement with infinite precision but I think we can all imagine that the Bible could be clearer on the matter which then leads to, if you believe in the stronger forms of divine inspiration, that God made the Bible intentionally vague on this point even for Christians.

[@tylerryan4572]

Read Malachi 4:1-3 and Ezekiel 28. Both say that the unjust will be turned to stubble/ashes. Sounds like death to me

[@exclusive_148]

they will have no rest day or night. Thats the verse that i struggle with

[@Mrm1985100]

That's describing the following chapters of Revelation. Try reading Revelation chapters 14, 15, and 16 in sequence. It's not about eternity but about the judgments that occur after Rev 14:9-11.

[@chanon.arthur]

​@@Mrm1985100Rev 20 still speaks about eternal torment in the lake of fire

[@gordo191]

Ask yourself. Do you believe in GOD because you are scared you are going to hell and burn in fire for eternity or do you believe there is a GOD because he loves you and has given you eternal life , ???

[@ws775]

Exactly. We need the gift of eternal life to escape death.

[@liliazavaleta7999]

Great point @gordo

[@reymarzongalletesbautista6941]

The punishment for the body I think is different from the punishment of the spirit... If our spirit was not in God then our spirit is not Holy but it is evil... The spirit and body is relative and no one can separate them. Your Body is you material existence while your Spirit is your immaterial existence... You are both your body and spirit... God sent us His Holy Spirit to make us holy again in His sight... His spirit and your spirit must become one so that it may gives you a body that will not perish and a soul that is pure... The Body is the product of the Soul and the Spirit, the soul is the creature... Body = Soul·Spirit; Body = Creature·Spirit;

[@ws775]

Disembodied existence is not even a biblical concept.

[@Loislikes]

It doesn't matter. If you are conscious as a spirit and are aware, you are alive. Whether you are in a physical shell or not, doesn't matter. You still exist, and are still alive. Anything or anyone that is conscious IS IN FACT alive.

[@yobabybubba]

*Someone please help me with this* - I watched several videos today on conditional immortality and my view has changed. I love it. Thank you God. When I shared it with my wife (Not just to be a skeptic, but honestly searching like myself) she brought up Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" And also Matthew 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast in hell fire." And there are other verses like this. How do you answer these questions when it comes to conditional immortality and these versus? Thank you..

[@paiger6058]

Why do you love it? Is it because you are putting your faith in a “not so good vacation spot” hell destination just in case you mess up or don’t end up accepting Jesus? Do you believe in works based salvation? Face reality. Hell is a terrible place and you Don’t want it. If hell ain’t that bad, heaven must not be that good.

[@paiger6058]

Listen to your wife 🙏

[@yobabybubba]

@@paiger6058 And no I don't believe in a works based salvation.

[@yobabybubba]

@@paiger6058 It's too bad.. I shared a whole detailed response with you and then I added a link and my whole comment was removed. I will just say that since I left my comment above with some questions they have all been answered and I am 100% convinced... I wish I can get you this article to you so you could read it and there's so many wonderful videos on KZbin as well

[@yobabybubba]

@@paiger6058 I shed the article on the video on your page

[@jardine2392]

Why are we arguing about if death is an eternal punishment when there are 100 verses that say you will die for your sins?

[@jamesmccluskey391]

If God loses the majority of mankind than either, 1. He is not all powerful. 2. He is not all loving. 3. Savior to all losser of none. God will lose NONE to an adversary He created... Luke 3:6 and ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God. 2 Peter 3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counseling any to be lost but ALL to pass on to reformation. 1 Timothy 4:10 for this we both labor and are reproached because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of ALL men -- *especially of those believing. *(Those believing are raptured) Romans 5:18 So, then, as through one offense to ALL men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to ALL men to justification of life. John 12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto myself. 1 Corinthians 15:22 for even as in Adam ALL die, so also in the Christ, ALL shall be made alive. Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to ALL men. Revelation 20:14 and the DEATH and the HADES (grave) were cast into the lake of the fire -- this is the second death. (No more death, no more graves) Ephesians 1:10 in regard to the dispensation of the fullness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth -- in him. Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the WHOLE to unbelief, that to the WHOLE He might do kindness. John 12:47 and if any one may hear my sayings, and not believe, I -- do NOT judge him, for I came not that I might judge the world, but that I might SAVE the world. 1 John 4:8 he who is not loving did not know God because God is love. (if God is love, how could God unjustly torture most of His creation for all eternity?) 1 Timothy 2:4 who doth will ALL men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. (does God get what He wills or is He tricked by sinners?) Isaiah 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile ALL things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. Philippians 2:10 that in the name of Jesus EVERY knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth. 1 Corinthians 15:28 and when ALL things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him ALL things, that God may be the ALL in ALL. Romans 14:11 for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall EVERY knee, and EVERY tongue shall confess to God. John 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the WORLD. Isaiah 25:8 He hath swallowed up death in VICTORY And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off ALL faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken. 1 John 4:14 And we -- we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son -- Savior of the WORLD. 1 John 2:2 and He -- He is a propitiation for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the WHOLE WORLD. 1 Peter 4:6 for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit. Is God love? (1 John 4:8) A loving God would never torture billions of people for eternity nor does He ever say He will in our Bible. This is man's misinterpretation of scripture and man's church tradition which must scare people into attending services and paying tithes which is also unbiblical. Once we learn how to identify mistranslated text in the popular KJV Bible (over 20,000) and how to divide Scripture properly, attributing what was meant for the nation of Israel and what was given to the apostle Paul for today's believer, the truth becomes crystal clear. But... if we mix doctrine and apply to Christians what was meant for the Jews, we see nothing but contradictions in our Bible. Salvation is now a free gift from God and there is nothing we can do or should do to receive it. Jesus did it all on the cross and all we need do is believe. If we attempt to gain our own salvation through works, we're simply saying that what Jesus did wasn't good enough and we need to add something to His sacrifice. When we believe in this manner, we make void the power of the cross. We need to stop judaising our Gospel given to the apostle Paul and start following the doctrine of our dispensation described in Romans - Philemon. If we reject Christ and His free gift of salvation, we are separated from God for the age by our choice along with 'everything' antichrist and NOT eternally tortured. That would be contrary to what a loving God had planned for all mankind. Can you really imagine our God torturing one of your family members for all eternity? No! - this would be vindictive and not just. Remember... the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. Once we learn how and why the KJV Bible wrongly translates and applies the words aionion, Sheol, and Gehenna we realize why we can abandon our belief that Gpossibly loses the overwhelming majority of His creation to an Adversary that eternally tortures them which is not only unbiblical - it is ridiculous.

[@InitialPC]

"If God doesn't do something I agree with, He is not all-loving" That is not how that works.

[@Havik99]

Eternal nothingness could be considered a punishment to some

[@alexreid2393]

2:04 “So while we may not understand how it could be just...” Why can’t more people admit that they don’t understand how it could be just? This is a more respectable answer than “Christians” acting like they know why it is just to subject one to torture for eternity. It’s kind of scary that they think that kind of punishment is just with no 2nd thoughts about it & then reasoning with everything they can to convince themselves it’s just.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Yes. Always good to remind ourselves. The reality is that we address ourselves to God Who Is Truth and Love and we trust Him. The reality also is that we are limited. We can have every good reason to trust that these points of confusion will be ironed out, especially as there are no specific passages that are undoubtedly unjust. Whatever the nature of punishment it's always stressed as a consequence of conscious choices. As a hopeful person, I always look at Ninevah. God gave a prophesy in order that it should be a warning and never occur. For all us pinhead apple-munchers know, any of the warnings and prophesies about the end times could be themselves a tool to bring about unfathomable justice and love.

[@alexreid2393]

Colm Whateveryoulike “Whatever the nature of punishment it’s always stressed as a consequence of conscious choices.” What about when God says about Pharaoh: “I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.” Exodus 4:21? It says GOD will harden his heart. So while Pharaoh may have thought that he was making a conscience choice, the Scriptures shows that GOD HIMSELF was behind it. Ssoooo I’m not too convinced that it’s a just thing that the unsaved right now end up in eternal torture when they die. If I am to believe that God is truly good, then I’d have to surely conclude that it is YOU who is in error here & that His ways are NOT how you think they are or making them seem. And that’s more so what I’m leaning towards because I think you’d agree that you are not the spokesman for God.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@alexreid2393 I can respect that. But I personally don't assign much weight to the argument you make. That verse along with another one I can't recall right now gave me the same cause for concern but I think, precisely because it is true I am not God, I must assume that God's perspective is a bit different to ours. One thing the Bible makes very clear based on the entire narrative of relevant verses is that God is good, true, assigns us free will, and lets us choose to love and accept Truth/Love/God as a free gift. It says He calls us all. It says He provided a way. It also says some will not choose the way. I hope they do but I know God does not choose any of the evil. Because only a couple of verses appear to possibly contradict this, and there are other ways to interpret them, I am of the opinion that they are probably not a contradiction. To try and communicate to you why I am open to this possibility I'd ask you to imagine that telling a liar the truth about which they could then choose to lie about could easily be described as actively playing a causitive role in bringing about the lie. God's perspective as the supreme arbitor alligns well enough with stating that He will reveal the truth to somebody God already knows will freely choose to resist further.

[@alexreid2393]

Colm Whateveryoulike I think every paragraph is worth responding to but I’ll be respectful of your time & reply only to some. “...but I think, precisely because it is true I am not God, I must assume that God’s perspective is a bit different to ours.” Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like you’re saying God’s perspective is out of reach (“different to ours”) & that’s all there is to it because we are limited (as you wrote in your previous reply). That’s the overall theme I gather from you in the way you’ve replied in both your comments so far. Maybe that’s satisfactory to you but I think God’s ways were MEANT to be understood. Or else, why would He include them in scripture? As it says: “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG TO US” Deuteronomy 29:29. Either way, I give you credit for admitting that “only a couple of verses appear to contradict this [the previous topic we were talking about].” I think more than just a couple appear to contradict YOUR point of view which may not be God’s point of view at all. I do not want to make the same mistake of many who discard the whole Bible just because someone’s interpretation of it is ASSUMED to be what the Bible actually says. I respectfully don’t think the Bible portrays what you’re portraying. I appreciate that you took the time to reply to me though.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@alexreid2393 I agree that God does make His ways clear but I am cautious about pretending that I or anyone else has full appreciation and no more to learn. I'm a bit confused and I wonder if you could specify what you think my point of view is and what verses contradict it besides the two I acknowledge - the one you quote and one in the new testament I can dig out if you need - which in fact do not need to be interpreted as contradicting God's goodness unless you really want to.

[@jrjm8582]

The consequence of the punishment is eternal.

[@davidarmintannbaum6800]

Conditional immortality is the only way if we accept the Bible as it is written. God cannot look upon anything unholy, therefore he has to destroy it (not only the sin, but also the sinner).

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Where does it say God cannot look at anything unholy? When I was a child I always wondered how I would feel happy in Heaven if I could see evil people suffering so that's why I'm interested to know if there's a Biblical basis for this being of the Holy Spirit.

[@InitialPC]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 its why jesus said why have you forsaken me when he was on the cross, it was the moment the sin of the world entered into him, it was not that god has forsaken jesus his own son, but forsook the sin in the sacrificial lamb

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@InitialPC Well I'm not sure if I understand how you say that relates to conditional immortality/annihalationism, but the long and widely accepted reason He said this was because Jews always referenced psalms by their first line as they hadn't numbered them, and he was referencing the messianic prophecy of Psalm 22 as He fulfilled it. That doesn't rule out multiple significances or theological meanings of course, but it removes the issue of God actually forsaking God.

[@InitialPC]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 It's not about conditional immortality I'm just responding to his statement about how God cannot look upon anything unholy.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@InitialPC Oh sorry I beg your pardon it's just been a while since I commented. Thanks, that's given me food for thought.

[@marcusmuse4787]

In Revelation 20:14 (ESV) we read: "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (This has to point to annihilation because why else would hell be thrown into hell that wouldn't make sense.)

[@omen4s976]

Whenever the Bible refers to hades or the realm of the dead its usually talking about the hebrew word sheol which means grave.

[@chris-nj3vg]

We all know the definition of death. Death is the absence of life. Death is "like a sleep", there is no consciousness in death.

[@vaniswatchingyoutube]

Hello there! if you are talking about Death in our bodies, yes, the body will no longer be able to function and eventually decay. However, consciousness is different! We have our Body, Soul (Personality) and Spirit. Even when the body dies, the Spirit is remains. Hence, there isn't absence of consciousness after bodily death. We were created for to have a intimate relationship with God for eternity! That's why the Bible says that God has set eternity in our hearts. (Ecclesiastes 3:11, He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.) That's why many believe in an after life. We are eternal beings, with a body that will pass away. But not so for our spirit. Jesus has paid the price for our sins, and gave us a way to reconcile with the Father, and to have a personal relationship. Through Jesus’ resurrection, he promised us that for those who believe that he is the son of God, that the dead will first rise, and the rest will be taken up into heaven. And ultimately God will create a new heaven and new earth for us all.

[@ws775]

No the soul is a living, breathing creature. If no more breath then no life or consciousness.

[@Loislikes]

@@vaniswatchingyoutube No that isn't true. God tells us clearly that we are mere vessels. Our entire beings are not physical and never was. You are acting as if God created us physical first. No we are spirit. Our very nature is actually spirit technically. Even unbelievers have a spirit and exist after death. So our very person is sprit and you can't say God will will destroy that spirit if you are still alive and conscious. Consciousness is what matters, not flesh and blood. Flesh and blood is just a vessel, it isn't what makes up life in the grand scheme. Not sure how you can say you are "dead" if you are still conscious. Who freaking cares if you have a physical body or not. If you are still AWARE of pain and torment, you are very much alive.

[@truthtvproductions9947]

Very useful I learned about the truth of hell thank you from India

[@sonnymustarseed7034]

Recommend checking out 'Hope Beyond Hell' by Gerry Beauchemin, helped me make sense of the old Calvinism-Arminian debate... may decide for yourselves.

[@justicejudah1247]

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[@justaguywithaturban6773]

Look at the context, jesus is describing the rotting bodies of gehennom (a really dirty valley in Jerusalem where people would throw their filth and dead bodies)

[@1bbbbbaaaaa]

eternal = irreversible for all of eternity. to perish means to perish, which is an eternal state.

[@shirvanray2140]

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. It's eternal punishment not eternal punishing. Just as Sodom and Gamorrha isn't still burning today. One has to get the context of the bible right because the bible doesn't contradict it'self.

[@jamesatwell7270]

If God is omnipresent how can there be a place where he is not present ie. in the traditional view of Hell?

[@nori_tutor]

As a Christian myself, I am sure that those who dies without putting their faith in Christ will face a punishment. If it'll be eternal or temporary, I'm actually not totally sure. Also, I don't say "For me, eternal punishment is totally just." As a Christian, I learn from my bible that sin is pretty serious. If God himself had to physically die to pay for our sins, so how much would we have to do to pay for them? So, even if it was temporary, it'd be much more than a 80 years life, for example. As a Christian, I understand that I can't fully understand how serious sin is. And as a human, I also sometimes think things like "Man, eternal suffering is horrible" I'm human, I can't understand some things. But at the same time I simply trust Jesus, why should we focus on this? Like, are we supposed to debate with atheists or other Christians, or preach the gospel? So, I think this matter is worthy studying ONLY if it somehow affects how you perceive God, then it'd be nice for you to study this while asking God for help. But if we do this for any other reason, I think we should leave it for God and period. Edit: Well, I'm now an Atheist.

[@paiger6058]

Amen.

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

How does one put "their" faith in Christ if faith is a gift from God? This is a common misconception within Christianity that a person much choose Christ and put their faith in Christ. Many are called but few are CHOSEN! Many are called but many go the broad way that leads to destruction which is age-lasting not eternal. Even the righteous suffer age-lasting destruction/death until the resurrection. There is NO word in the Hebrew or Greek that means eternal or everlasting. These are modern words that were added to the bible spuriously and from bad biblical scholarship. Sin is pretty serious but not to the point that it would demand eternal punishment. The bible is clear that the wages of sin is death not eternal life being punished without end. God Himself physically died to pay for our sins because we can't pay for our sins. Did we do anything to become sinners? The bible says in Romans 8:20 that the creation (humanity) was made subject to vanity (worthlessness). This was done not according to the will of man but because of God who also subjected the same (creation) in hope. But hope for what? In the next verse, we read that the creation itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (death) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. God doesn't expect humanity to pay for their sins but humanity will be judged by their words. This judgement will be temporary and I doubt it will be more than 80 years of life. However long it is for each individual, it will take as long as necessary for them to learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9). If there's discussion or debate, how would we ever be able to challenge the ideas of others? What is the gospel and if we don't know what it is, how can we preach it? This is the core issue with Christianity and an issue that no one is talking about. People put their trust in Christianity as a substitute for Christ.

[@nori_tutor]

@@therealgospelofchrist6823 Now I'm an Agnostic who doesn't believe in Christianity anymore, so...

[@therealgospelofchrist6823]

@@nori_tutor I don't believe in Christianity either so we have that in common.

[@nori_tutor]

@@therealgospelofchrist6823 Lmao, I thought you were a Christian. Or you do believe in the bible but from a different view?

[@dynamicloveministries334]

Why should a person be aware of punishment to make it punishment?

[@TheMirabillis]

Is Non Existence a Punishment for a Non Existent Person ? Yes or No ?

[@davidford15]

@@TheMirabillis "Is Non Existence a Punishment for a Non Existent Person ?" No. Putting out of existence can be a punishment for an existing person.

[@vaniswatchingyoutube]

:( God never intended for us to be under His wrath. But to be in a intimate fellowship with Him.

[@dynamicloveministries334]

​@@TheMirabillis The question assumes something that is not said. Is death a punishment. The person exists but is dead.

[@dynamicloveministries334]

@@davidford15 There is a difference between not existing and being dead. I would argue that the unbeliever enters eternal death. A dead person exists but is dead.

[@LennyChildOfJesus]

Eternal punishment can be eternal death because death is punishment. Jesus didn’t say eternal punishing he said eternal punishment. Eternal death is biblical.

[@jodyterrell26]

it seems to me that if you have to be conscious to be punished then you are also alive, which would be the same as saying you will have eternal life. the wages of sin is death, not eternal life being tortured. just my thoughts.

[@Loislikes]

Exactly. I struggle with this on a logical level. All you are doing is changing places. Instead of being Eternally in Paradise with God, you are just eternally alive or conscious in torment forever and ever. How are you than "dead", you aren't. You are very much alive and the "2nd death" has no meaning or a completely different meaning. And if that is the case, I dont' know why God didn't just continue to say the wages of sin is eternal torment. Would make it much simpler.

[@roderickcruz5234]

Consider the outer darkness as punishment prior to WTJ

[@FirefighterAliveJC]

How do you explain the rich man and Lazarus? And don’t say it was a parable because it wasn’t!

[@Yaawd.Ad47]

Explain why it wasn't a parable please? Do you actually think that Heaven and hell were separated by a gulf, and yet the persons in each could converse with each other? There is few who would think that the saved and lost can conversate like this? The rich man was in hell and had eyes, tongue etc... how did his physical body straight into hell and not the grave? No one teaches this. Also, Isaac Newton, Martin Luther and William Tindale did not believe in the immortal soul. Please look into it some more and search the Hebrew/Greek words as that will help aid your research. God Bless my friend.

[@ws775]

It was a parable.

[@TheCruiseDog]

I agree with the other comments here. You will have to explain why it is not a parable. If you do think this is historical you are left with more questions than answers, one being that the dead in Hades converse with the those in Heaven. Still, I would like to hear your certainty on this being historical.

[@highlanderthegreat]

it is a parable, just because you say it isnt does not mean it is not....

[@highlanderthegreat]

i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish".. in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up " john3:16 the word "perish"is used.. romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life. if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life???? luke13:3 you will perish john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!! how can someone be not there and there at the same time???? matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL.. the punishment is eternal but not the punishing.. matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR.. matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION.. ALL THIS FROM THE NT. the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY???? b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT. NOW FROM THE OT...ALM :9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH. for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish. MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING.. HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE???? MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet... THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS would this not be ANNIHILATION????? psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy. psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them... OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were... psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT... psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT.. EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee... NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here 2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today??? ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION " please show me where i am WRONG????? how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...

[@illyrian9976]

I don't see why death is not an eternal punishment. Eternal means that it won't be changed and is final, and that seems to fit perfectly to death. Also, if we are eternaly sperated from God, how do we live? Isn't God the sustainer of our life? Seperation from him would mean death.

[@marcusmuse4787]

1 peter 4:6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[@Qui_Gon_Jinn_76]

We just can't wrap our minds around just how bad sin is and so we can't understand eternal punishment. Almighty God killed His own son, that's how serious sin is. It makes no difference what we think is fair or just, the being that makes that decision answers to no one, and does what He pleases. We either can do as He says or suffer the consequences. He is the ultimate judge, the final say, the absolute authority, He is the Almighty God and His will shall be done.

[@swish4773]

I still don't get how God killed is own son when Jesus Is God and is immortal???

[@Qui_Gon_Jinn_76]

@@swish4773 we are all eternal in the sense that our soul, our essence lives on in one of two places, Heaven, with God, or Hell, without God. God is one essence with 3 persons. No-one is able to fully understand what that means, however, we do understand that their is authority ranks so to speak in the Trinity. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and then The Holy Spirit. God the Father, having the highest authority, had His son, second in authority, become the sacrifice for man's sin on the cross. And now God the Father has given ALL authority to Jesus, His Son, because He served the Father diligently and perfectly. God the Father owned the company and gave absolute control of it now to His Son Jesus, who is now in complete authority with God the Father. Jesus as a man was killed, however He is still God therefore eternal. We as men can be killed but our soul's, our spirit's live on eternally.

[@storba3860]

"God killed Jesus" is only one atonement view and has very little scriptural backing. It's logically incoherent too since it's basically "sacrificing yourself unto yourself to appease yourself". Faustian Bargain Ransom Atonement Theory makes way more sense.

[@Qui_Gon_Jinn_76]

@@storba3860 🙄

[@tommartin5667]

I think you are wrong. Sodom and Gomorrah suffered "eternal fire" (Jude 7). Not because the fire lasted for eternity, but because the effects of the fire are eternal.

[@VardyMoss]

so its like them areas are still living the pain today

[@ws775]

Exactly. The fire is not still burning.

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

@@VardyMoss who knows, maybe there’s a small part that id

[@highlanderthegreat]

i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish".. in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up " john3:16 the word "perish"is used.. romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life. if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life???? luke13:3 you will perish john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!! how can someone be not there and there at the same time???? matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL.. the punishment is eternal but not the punishing.. matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR.. matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION.. ALL THIS FROM THE NT. the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY???? b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT. NOW FROM THE OT...ALM :9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH. for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish. MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING.. HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE???? MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet... THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS would this not be ANNIHILATION????? psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy. psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them... OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were... psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT... psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT.. EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee... NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here 2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today??? ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION " please show me where i am WRONG????? how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...

[@JasonJohnSwartz]

The punishment of sin is death. The dead will be raised and judged. Some to eternal life and others to eternal death in the lake of fire which is the second death. The term eternal punishment means God will not change his mind forever on that judgement. If it was an ongoing conscious punishment it would be eternal punishing.

[@jamesm_]

How come a Christian can take one verse and make a hard claim but when an "atheist" does, they are "taking the Bible out of context".

[@arcguardian]

It's like looking into a funhouse mirror.

[@hyreonk]

I've got a good guess as to where you got the analogy - but I don't see its relevance here. Are you trying to demonstrate that Hell is not intuitive, and that you have a massive disconnect between your mental faculties when trying to see things from his point of view? I tend to agree, and I don't think this view naturally falls from the Biblical data.

[@arcguardian]

@@hyreonk to answer ur question, no. I was just referring to their outward appearance sitting next to each other. Man u got deep real quick there. I like it, but I wasn't using an analogy, which might explain why u didn't see relevance.

[@davidreinker5600]

Matthew 25:46 says, '“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Jesus is offering eternal life or eternal punishment. Therefore, eternal punishment cannot mean living forever experiencing punishment, as Mr. Turek suggests. Death is punishment and it is eternal, barring an act of God. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. It is God that gives us life and breath, yet total separation from God means having living bodies that are eternal and impervious to everything but pain?

[@hondotheology]

The problem with annihilationalism is that it is exactly what the atheists believe, who have no knowledge of God or scripture, who despise God and defy him, and it is exactly what they want. God is not just if he allows the atheist to defy, mock, blaspheme his name and then say "You will not exist anymore." That will be a _reward_ for them, not a punishment.

[@gomez3357]

Nobody is saying hell doesn’t exist

[@greenergrass4060]

I agree

[@brettgibbs8250]

Actually I would say its more merciful than eternal torment, but not a reward. To have your existence taken away from you forever is unimaginable. People think that having eternal life would be boring, but wouldn't eternal life be better than ceasing to exist forever?

[@Loislikes]

So what? You are acting like God has to be like "Bend the knee, or suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire". God's Paradise should be enough for you to want to follow him. And also, your life must be pretty great, if you don't need a Paradise after death. You must really be without need of anything. I am sure if you were on the streets, with sores, starving and going through all kinds of discomfort, you would BEG for God to come take you to his Kingdom.

[@Loislikes]

@Sopq-m7j The unforgivable sin is something you don't know you are doing. It is TRULY believing that the Holy Spirit is of Satan. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is literally unbelief and saying Good is Evil. As I stated before, it is claiming Jesus was possessed by the Devil not by the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul actually was anti-Christian until later when he had his conversion. You have to go to your grave believing Jesus is evil.

[@fredtheunicorn4241]

What a horrific set of beliefs.

[@EaZiE01]

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during" Youngs Literal Translation. The problem is he doesn't realize the age is current. Jesus wasn't promising something for when we die, he was promising for when we are alive. Sin will eventually kill us spiritually and quite possibly physically - in this new age of Christ.

[@EaZiE01]

@Jack Of All Trades There will always be a story. That's the way the mind works. Although some people are ok living without a purpose, they don't do much good for the world, at least in my view. I would say that without the actual story of Jesus there would be a lot more atheism. Kind of like Santa Claus, he ain't real, but he is in another sense - like materialistically. However, the story of Jesus has truth in it that is foundational to life. There could not be a comparative story that has the same effects. It is not the belief that makes it true, but makes that truth effective.

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

@@EaZiE01 Wait, god is eternal. Why would he create us to not be eternal? What purpose would he have for creating us. He adopts people into his family. Also our spirits are cleansed from sin. He described some people as immortal...

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

I think you may be wrong. The Bible says that some will be everlasting and some will have everlasting punishments. Also, god SAYS we have a purpose. Living for 30 years and dying wouldn’t be purposeful. Let me know if you see this.

[@EaZiE01]

@@kelseelovesgod7678 Well, first, we can't be eternal if we came into existence at a certain point. We were all born as humans and so are not eternal. Even our spiritual life began. What purpose does God have in creating anything? It can't be just to exist "eternally". A relationship with God. There are specific purposes for each of us and the acts of God through us are in time. Destined for a specific place and time. Why would an endless life even matter?

[@EaZiE01]

@@kelseelovesgod7678 Have a study of the original meaning of the word everlasting. Also please look at conditional immortality. This is probably where there is misunderstanding. Eternal life is conditional - He who believes shall not PERISH, but have everlasting life. Yes, the idea of hell being an endless place of torment is an error.

[@yqafree]

Aion aionios and aiona don't mean eternal but age ages and age enduring, this is a semantics debate and the jury is out unless you come to know the true good news, that Yeshua saves all and restores all, He draws all humankind to Himself

[@gomez3357]

But it’s the same word that says heaven is eternal does that mean heaven isn’t eternal?

[@yqafree]

@@gomez3357 Can give me a scripture reference for that please? I think 2 Cor 5:1 is the only one I can think of that comes close, again age-enduring or another meaning can mean without ages, but no aion in any variation and conjunction always has something to do with time, duration or like I said timelessness the concept of eternity semantically developed over many centuries and originally in Latin the word aeternum even meant aspects of time or timelessness/duration So even then it didn't hold the connotation, the almost pataphysical and inconceivable kinds of notions that we have no real world reference for, such as the philosophically argued contexts we have today when considering eternity If you take a long scholarly look at the theologians throughout history you'll notice that circa 1700s eternity had semantically shifted to today's concept of it while circa 1500-1700s that shift began taking larger swings from the time contexts - Your Quality Apologist

[@gomez3357]

@@yqafree the same word you referring too is used in Greek in Matthew 25:41 “αἰώνιον” means eternal and it’s the exact same word used for Matthew 19:16 talking about obtaining eternal life, Matthew 19:29 about inheriting everlasting life, Matthew 25:46 both about eternal life and eternal punishment,

[@dynamicloveministries334]

Death is the only eternal punishment. A state where you are punished with never having life.

[@tiffany_views2983]

So can one of you annihilationalist explain Rev. 14 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Forever and ever, day and night! It doesn't get anymore clear than that! There is no seizing to exist. Unbelievers like believers have eternal souls that will never die and after this life will exist whether in paradise or torment! Leading people to believe that they wont be judged and punished for their sins against our holy and just God is blasphemy! You are leading people to live a care free life having no regard for sin because they think they will just die completely! Repent and believe the gospel and stop twisting scriptures!

[@InitialPC]

"Leading people to believe that they wont be judged and punished for their sins against our holy and just God is blasphemy!" That is not what annihilationism is. The wicked are being erased from existence BECAUSE they were judged, it IS punishment! Rewriting annihilationism does not make it false. And the issue you raise with Rev 14:11 is the same issue with other verses that imply an eternal punishment. Ceasing to exist is not temporary but in fact eternal. You say to stop twisting scripture, but one could argue from an annihilationist perspective that that is exactly what you are doing. Also.. "Unbelievers have eternal souls that will never die." Now who is twisting scripture? John 3:16 promises ETERNAL LIFE to the righteous. You claim ceasing to exist is an escape from justice, but you also claim the wicked will receive eternal life just like the righteous will.

[@tiffany_views2983]

@@InitialPC I’m not about to argue scriptures!! Clearly it says day and night forever and ever!

[@InitialPC]

@@tiffany_views2983 "I'm not about to argue scriptures!!" Isn't that what you literally did with your first comment? Kinda convenient that you don't want someone to challenge you on scripture the moment someone disagrees with you. Very Pharisee-like.

[@tiffany_views2983]

@@InitialPC it’s Pharisee of me to say I’m not going to argue scripture? It would be Pharisee of me to argue an opinion or boast about what I know or what I do. I only give Jesus Christ the glory and trust in his word in scripture! The truth is in plain writing in the Bible hell is real, people go there for eternity there is no annihilation of the soul.

[@InitialPC]

@@tiffany_views2983 Proverbs 21:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. You are giving "glory" to Jesus by your own standards. You shouldn't be going "The Bible says this because I say so and I'm not going to argue about it." As if your interpretation of scripture is without any fault.

[@appledough3843]

I disagree with him. IF the punishment is annihilation and you cease to exist forever (never to return to existence) then your punishment is eternal. So assuming the punishment IS annihilation then it can totally make logical sense

[@GreyHeir]

I've been researching and leaning towards anhilationism, but I do see the holes, and want to know the truth not just my own. So it could be wrong. One little tidbit for the debate I would like to throw in is definition wise you don't have to be alive to be conscious biblically wise. Since the bible often says we are dead until we are saved. I'm not daying it's a homerun it's just a piece of the puzzle I want to help with

[@gomez3357]

What are your holes maybe I can refute it

[@storba3860]

Dead in your sins is a different kind of death than what is described in Revelation. Especially if you believe in Original Sin which states that we're born dead in our sins. If a person never accepts Christ then they stay dead so you can't be killed twice unless you're annihilated.

[@informedrationalist2091]

frank is wrong on what punishment is from the point of God himself to be denied life forever is a eternal punishment,,,his perspective not mans is the only one that truly counts and he is the one who enforces it to the extent it is what he says it is......nor do we have a immortal soul for such a thing to be carried out iin the manner of pagan mythology.

[@Loislikes]

Ugh, even the gurus can't answer this question remotely. Uhm, a "punishment" CAN BE DEATH. Punishment and "torment forever" is NOT the same thing. A punishment could be mild or it could be complete death or annihilation. So saying the scripture says punishment, that doesn't mean or even equate to eternal torture. Also, I don't know why the bible continues to use "death" or "2nd death" as the punishment for sin. How come it doesn't say the wages or punishment for sin is eternal torture or torment forever. The only time torment and torture is described, is when the bible talks about Satan and his devils. When God talks about humans, however, he says "death" and not eternal life. So there is wiggle room here, when making a case for annihilation. Perhaps Satan, because he has a different story and different spirit, would get torment instead, because he had it all and he still rebelled.

[@sonnymustarseed7034]

Aionion kolasis in Matt 24:46 shall be looked closer at.

[@Innerunderstanding]

In what world is it just to eternally torture someone in the most horrific way you could possibly imagine simply because they do not want to live with you?!

[@chrisgagnon5768]

Inner understanding 5602 The bible never describes hell as torture. That’s a misconception. It’s torment.

[@Innerunderstanding]

Topher Torment or torture for all eternity is the same thing. The fact he would inflict any type of pain on his children for all eternity is pretty sick...

[@chris-nj3vg]

You are completely right. That's why the Bible teaches annihilationism. God is love and just. We are created in the image of God. We still have some conscience... we know that (eternal) torture is evil.

[@chrisgagnon5768]

Inner understanding 5602 It really isn’t though. Torment is the anguish of being separated from God. Something you’re choosing.

[@Innerunderstanding]

chris No the Bible specifically states that the fire will never go out and the worm will never die. I wonder what bible you were reading?

[@marka3313]

Eternal punishment not eternal punishing

[@sundayandee]

Eternal punishment - not eternal punishing. Death of the soul is eternal punishment.

[@Vinylfiend60]

Frank is great but he’s also completely wrong about this subject. No apologist has perfect infallible theology. We should be able to agree that Gods judgment will come and that it will last forever. The question is will the punishment be eternal life or death? The Bible says death. Traditionalists must interpret death to mean life in order for their view to be accepted. The problem is nowhere in the Bible does God give eternal life to the wicked.

[@Leah-fi5ee]

Annihilationism all the way for me.

[@postmortemvox]

The punishment is death, and it lasts for eternity, aka eternal punishment.

[@tylerryan4572]

Notice how Jesus says eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. 2 totally different things. I like u Frank but I gotta disagree with u on this one.

[@ortegajon88]

awesome vid. i struggled with this question. frank answerd perfect. unconsciousness after death is no justice for the wicked

[@emiliogomez5246]

Frank is right about many things but he is dead wrong on this subject. www.revisedenglishversion.com/Appendix/5/Annihilation-in-the-Lake-of-Fire

[@robfox4418]

That's an absurd position to take as it presupposes that no other punishment would provide justice. As Kyle Otero aptly wrote, eternal life is a gift of God for the righteous. If you don't have eternal life, then there is only death and non-existence.

[@davidford15]

"i struggled with this question" Do you accept the view that people in hell suffer agony for an infinite length of time?

[@InitialPC]

If God decides that it is justice then it is justice. Annihilationism is not false simply because you say so.

[@rightsidecrossrev]

Anyone who can rest easy with the idea that someone who committed temporary sins should suffer in agony forever should really look at how they view others. I’m not saying that it’s true or not. I’m just saying that Christians need to approach this subject with humility and grace.

[@rightsidecrossrev]

You ARE being punished for eternity. Those that are saved will exist for eternity. Unbelievers won’t. So, they will eternally be punished from the believers perspective because they will eternally cease to exist.

[@LB-uw8nq]

It would be eternal because it could never change. The punishment is eternal separation from God, not eternal poking with firesticks from imps.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

I am NOT saying whether there is or is not eternal punishment in Hell, but here is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS: Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement "no rest day or night" makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. Luke 16:22-24 “The time came when the beggar died, and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” Notice the rich man is NOT annihilated but rather in torment in flames. He can feel pain, he can see, he can have a rational conversation. How does this in any metaphorical sense point to annihilation?

[@LB-uw8nq]

@@MB777-qr2xv the beast, satan, and false prophet were tormented forever, not everyone else.

[@LB-uw8nq]

@@MB777-qr2xv also, "beware the one who destroys both body and soul in the fires of hell" "Their place is in the lake of fire and sulfer, which is the second death" "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

[@MB777-qr2xv]

@@LB-uw8nq NO offense, but your statement about the beast, Satan, and the false prophet are NOT true. Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If ANYONE worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. HE SHALL BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Then in Revelation 20:11 it says this, " Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." I just showed you in Revelation 14 that the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment and it says they have no rest day or night.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

By the way, in God's economy, death does NOT mean to cease existing. Revelation 20:11 says, "And I saw the DEAD, small and great, STANDING before God..."

[@ThruTheUnknown]

When it says punishment it doesn't say death? If a man murders someone what might his punishment be? Death 💀 by lethal injection 💉 perhaps? Ergo from Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 the punishment is death and utter destruction that's what perdition in the old Bible translations means - destruction. Luke 13:3: "I tell you, unless you repent, you shall all likewise *perish*." How are they destroyed? Mark 9:44 by fire that burns them up and the worm that eats at the remains till theres nothing left - this comes from Isaiah 66 where it's stated to be never ending yet it ended i.e. Isaiah was being poetic to illustrate the share number of people to be killed (it'd take a really long time for them to be eaten away at by the worms etc). What is the worm? Jewish understanding is the torment of their consciousness knowing the sins they committed which causes them IMO to be spiritually dead i.e. body, soul and spirit are all destroyed, they don't exist anymore or any longer, there is not a single trace of them left. Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy* both soul and body *in hell*." Is the experience going to be as peaceful as death by lethal injection? No, I don't believe it will be a pleasant experience and not something I'd like to go thru myself personally, for some that may be a slow painful death as well. Luke 12:48: "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." If hell was eternal torment for everyone then they'd all receive the same amount of pain and Jesus' statement would be untrue. All scripture must be taken into consideration. I'm glad you're open to considering different opinions.

[@waxbruh5965]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@waxbruh5965 For the beast yes.

[@waxbruh5965]

Mr Liver - Alive in Christ for those who worship the beast, and any who take the mark of its name

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@waxbruh5965 Anyone takes the mark of the beast NOT everything single person throughout entire human history who has died or will die in sin or unbelief. Quite a BIG difference there IMHO.