A closer look at Syril Karn & The Banality of Evil (Andor)

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[@justlivin2499]

He’s the most relatable and realistic character, he can’t do a proper motivational speech,he gets fired for doing his job, has to live with his mom while finding a new job while also having to deal with poor cell reception in his moms house

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

the poor cell reception at his Mom’s house 😂😂😂

[@theempiredidnothingwrong3227]

Gets rejected when telling hot blonde chick true feelings.

[@AlecFortescue]

@@theempiredidnothingwrong3227 So nothing gonna happen between them? :/

[@kaziglubey4455]

Brilliant synopsis. That DOES make him pretty relatable.

[@jed52]

Bruh, I've been feeling the exact same way about this guy through the whole show 🤣🤣

[@oliverhaake7552]

I love that you picked up this topic. As a German born way after WW2, the question "How could my grandparents generation do this?" drove me to read a lot of books about it and finally talk to some elder people who were young adults in the Third Reich. Most of my grandparents died before I was even born with one exception and the only grandmother I knew personally was already pretty old and died before I was old enough to ask her. But what I found out during my civil service in Germany, looking for elder people at 80 to 90 years. Some of them were soldiers in WW2, even one former officer. The didn't seem like evil persons to me. They were born into this and though they did the right thing. And the farther the war progressed, the more pure survival became their priority. Some said they never heard of the crimes of the Nazi regime, others said they believed they were just rumors or enemy propaganda. I believe that they all knew something and maybe were actively involved, but I guess they were thinking: It's for the greater good and its just bad times for everyone. Like: "Where wood is chopped, splinters must fall." I think that even the most dedicated Nazis thought, they would do the world a favour. That's how these systems work and how these people can watch their image in a mirror without throwing up.

[@ArodrethEruhin]

It's not only just N@zi Germany. It also applies to the U.S and other Nato regimes. Many people born in Nato countries are conditioned to think that Nato is doing the right thing. Many of them never heard of the crimes of the Nato, or they just see them as rumors or as "Chinese/Russian propaganda". People who are actively involved in Nato are thinking: "It's for the greater good and it's just bad times for everyone". Nato has the same method of indoctrination as N@zi Germany does, which is reasonable why many people outside of the West consider Nato to be the Fourth Reich.

[@DustinWillis18]

Syril is just another example of a wonderfully written character. Someone you can understand the reasoning for their actions while also not wanting to root for them.

[@QuestionMan]

So far, Syril hasn't been asked to do anything "evil" or even unjust. He' sees no reason to apply his investigative talents to uncovering the Empire and so gives it the benefit of the doubt. What will define him will be what he decides to do once he sees first hand what the Empire's intentions, motives, and methods really are and their capacity for evil in how they execute them. Will he care? will he even notice? Dedra doesn't. She relishes it.

[@d15p4tch6]

Totally agree. It's really up in the air too: he craves a life of meaning, of having a purpose, of mattering and feeling good about himself and his accomplishments. He's basically the most highly motivated incel you've ever met. And that, it seems, is extremely dangerous. We'll have to see if his desire for justice is greater than his need for everything else.

[@ProdCritic]

What makes Syril such a beautifully tragic character is the fact that under almost any other circumstance, he could make an *EXCELLENT* asset to the rebels & be happy instead, (in the words of Andor's director Toby Haynes in an interview with The Ringer) he turns into the most dangerous type of fascist, a zealot. His character is even mirrored by Vel (Just like Vel loves Cinta because she is a mirror reflecting what she wants to see in herself, Deedra is that for Syril). Vel and Cassian both had doubts & things to lose but found faith in themselves & a cause through the support of others while Syril is stuck with his mom only to be indoctrinated into the empire. His family is trying to win at a game but in their desperation they are blinded to the fact that the game is rigged from the start & they will simply be used & thrown away. The level of artistic intent & execution on display in Andor is 2nd to *NONE*

[@Kevin_Street]

Well said!

[@bondagebritney3124]

You seem like someone who will enjoy my Syril theories: Saying he can recognize Luthen's voice is very likely to come back into play, along with the way Luthen noted and repeated Dedra's name to Lonny. Somehow Luthen may be key to pushing Syril and Dedra together. Nevermind some of that though, and add in some Manifesto theory too, which clearly has a Manifesto Destiny also. Here's a scenario for finale! 1) Syril might arrest Luthen and/or Andor first on Ferrix. 1a) Luthen might meet Andor first and send him away to help Anto after unexpectedly spending little or no time on Ferrix, promising he can keep the Fondor he's trying to get rid of along with Andor and make it look like Anto is Axis and the Fondor owner, kill 3 birds with one stone, but Saw also helps Anto and they succeed mostly and most escape. 1b) Otherwise more likely Andor will be on Ferrix a lot 2) Syril takes the Manifesto Andor gave to Luthen or from Andor or makes a DATA PAD COPY of the Manifesto! 3) Andor and/or Luthen get away from Syril just before Imperials pick him up and Dedra is mad he's messing around again. 4) Maybe they saw Andor/Luthen get away added to HAVING THE MANIFESTO now Syril looks like a Rebel helping them! 5) Being tortured by Dedra with the screams is a setup way Syril's character can change on a dime, changing his view of what his "fate" to work for "justice and beauty in the galaxy" means for him! -- At this point now we have motive for the "Syril becomes a Rebel" theory, though it's early... BUT i thought of this amazing TWIST: 6) it can also fit into the expected finale format so that Syril then is rescued from the hotel and torture by Ferrix Rebels which will probably include at least one of Luthen's gang, Andor, Vel, Sinta... 7) So at end of finale it looks like Syril might join them and maybe even starts talking about how evil the Empire is now that he saw Bix and was tortured and they didnt believe him about why he had the Manifesto / data etc, 8) BUT in Season 2 we find out he actually doesnt hate the Empire / Dedra they were just doing their job and was understandable since he had the Manifesto or looked suspicious etc. AND HE MAKES HIMSELF A SELF-APPOINTED DOUBLE AGENT FOR DEDRA/EMPIRE !!!! Syril has gigantic setup and would become the first mega pre-set up villain if he eventually advances in Imperial ranks, other than Anakin sort of after the prequels existed hehe. So even if he goes in a predictable becoming bad guy route, he will be one of the most built up ones, especially seeing how he got there without a prequel made later first! To be the obsessed Captain Ahab going crazy Les Miserables type of hunter guy, but not officially being on EITHER SIDE and involved with BOTH as a self appointed double agent maybe even the Rebels are only USING him to be a double-double-agent without knowing sort of etc.... wow he might commit suicide if even after doing this both sides abandon / use / betray him! Being involved with BOTH sides sort of while not officially being on EITHER would make a twist that isnt just okay im a Rebel now I guess, give me a gun, or the obvious but higher than normal quality story of normal Imperial Bad Guy!

[@andedom]

Idk, Cyril has never experienced unconditional love from his mother, so I don’t think he knows how to love himself. So he wouldn’t be happy working for the rebels. However, do to his OCPD, his obsessive nature and black and white thinking, he could be a big asset to the rebels

[@bondagebritney3124]

@@ProdCritic Darn I wrote a thanks and 2 fun/funny other Star Wars things but it got lost i think. Maybe later I'll copy and paste it from somewhere else... ugh but Andor 12 on soon!

[@Relugus]

You also see the contrast between Maarva and Syril's mother. Maarva loves Cassian for who he is, she accepts. Syril's mother demands he be what she wants.

[@SiriuslyBlack7]

Syril Karn is almost identical to the character Javert from Les Miserables,an officer of the law of sorts that loses himself in a relentless pursuit of a single man, who to him,is more than just a common criminal,but everything he stands against.Part of that reasoning is because he feels a personal responsibility for allowing him to escape. So capturing Cassian Andor means EVERYTHING to him,his pursuit of him has become an obsession,almost maniacal.

[@andrewj1754]

Thats a great comparison!

[@01_N01]

Yes, great comparison. 👍

[@ellicel]

The humanization of the enemy in Andor gives us a lot to think about IRL. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to further your own career or take care of your family, but what if to do so we have to work for corporations that do immoral things, particularly overseas (such as using child labor or worse). While not on par with the empire, the question arises, to what extent are we complicit when we give our time and talents to organizations who oppress others. I’m not advocating one way or the other, but I appreciate that this series shows a lot of people on the side of the empire are just trying to live their lives…they are not themselves evil or even “bad,” yet their enrichment or comfort comes at a very high cost to the rest of the galaxy. I’m glad this show raises these issues but trusts the audience to ponder it on their own without preaching. In presenting this side of the empire, we can see ourselves on both sides and have to wonder, what would we do in similar circumstances? What DO we do in real life, right now? I think Lucas intended for his films to not only entertain but also make people think. In that way, Andor certainly feels like Star Wars proper

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

I don’t know how much Lucas wanted his audience to *think*

[@stevebreedlove9760]

Awesome contribution to the discussion.

[@elpinguinovolador4114]

He is just a simple person making his way into the universe

[@TKinfinity01]

He even makes it as far as Corrisant.

[@mathiasbartl903]

Nah, he's the Main Character

[@benquadrinaros8692]

The thing I like most about Cyril is that if this were a different story, were he on a different side, he could easily be the protagonist. Even though he’s on the wrong side, and a tad odd, I’m gonna feel quite sad if anything happens to him

[@Kevin_Street]

Excellent video, Thor! I think you're right on the money with Syril Karn. "He's doing what he's doing as a means by which to give himself a sense of self worth or purpose." Exactly! There's a number of voices on continuous play inside Syril's head, telling him that he's worthless. His mother is the most prominent one, but now there's also that scene where Cassian had a gun to his head and was deciding whether or not to kill him. (With Luthen's unknown voice gruffy shouting "Kill him!" in the background.) Syril felt completely helpless and scared in that moment, and his anger at being made to feel that way is making him almost suicidally fixated now. If he can bring Cassian to justice (or maybe just bring him down), Syril thinks that will prove his worth and shut off the voices. I think even his attraction to Dedra is mainly because she has the confidence and control that he wants so much.

[@MedalionDS9]

I am convinced Syril is not a good or a bad person, he is very banal as you say... the murder was the catalyst but not really his primary purpose that drives him... it was an excuse to secure his standing and that obsession makes him very awkward in everything because of his stunted and overbearing upbringing. Syril is actually very immature and selfish and not pursuing Andor to "get justice"... not for those murdered... he means justice for himself... in ways not relating to those who died.

[@martinfiedler4317]

And was Andor looking for his sister out of "selfless" reasons? Or was he rather doing it just to feel better about the loss he experienced as child? What was Andor's justification for "killing" (aka murdering) two people? Sure, they were unlikable. But does that justify ending their lives? But the one who is trying to solve the murder case - in line with the law, btw - is the bad guy, because his superior was telling him to let it drop? Syril is risking his career by ignoring the order of his boss. Even if he would have succeeded, he must have been aware that his chief would not have been likely to work with a deputy, that ignores his orders. Also, Syril - an office guy - is putting himself in the same danger as the soldiers he sends out... Frankly, from my perspective Syril shows more qualities of a hero than Andor...

[@fleap817]

What if andor is becoming a hero? And Syril becoming a bad guy? just because you do have done bad things in the past doesn't doom you to being a bad person. Andor did things maybe for selfish reasons but in the end his experiences in life lead him to become a hero and sacrifice his life so other might have a chance to live theirs.

[@MedalionDS9]

@@fleap817 um well that's pretty much a guarantee... we know Andor's final destination, but we know nothing about Syril's fate... but obviously we don't see him playing a part during the events of Rogue One on screen.

[@balenci172]

I like this take a lot I couldn’t really figure Syril out and what pushes him to act but looking at it this way makes complete sense.

[@kierstinschmidt2514]

@Balenci He’s a guy with low self-worth and no purpose but the murder gave him a purpose. And it becomes his obsession. There are no virtues being exhibited here. Finding and prosecuting Andor is simply filling the hole in his empty life.

[@Scorkey333]

As imperfect as the D&D alignment chart is, "Lawful Neutral" is an excellent description for Syril Karn so far. "Lawful Neutral" major characters are rare, but not unheard of.

[@stevebreedlove9760]

I am seeing more and more discussions of real life questions raised by Andor and it is honestly one of those hidden reasons the show is resonating with fans. From tactical aspects of preparation and security culture to the deeper moral questions we have to struggle with as fallible members of a collective struggle, this show is a blueprint for resisting tyranny.

[@originaldarkwater]

I think Syril is an object lesson in the dangers of being "lawful", to put it in D&D terms, without considering what kind of impact those laws are having on actual people. He doesn't stop to consider how his fellow officers got killed by Andor in the first place, like his superior does, and I don't think he even knows them, they are just a means to showing his dedication to the rules. Instead of rules and laws being a means to help people live together, rules and laws have become an end unto themselves for Syril, and the effect they have on people doesn't concern him at all. It is this unthinking allegiance to rules and laws for their own sake that makes him a villain. This also explains why he's alone, you get the feeling that he'd turn his best friend in to the authorities if they stepped even a bit out of line. You can't get close to someone who you couldn't trust even a little.

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

True

[@DarkLordArmanus]

What you said at the start of the video about Andor shooting the informant so he wouldn't get captured and talk...this would certainly be put into a new context if we see that Andor learns what happened to Bix.

[@laurelhill3505]

Star Wars is not necessarily about Good vs Evil, but the Selfless vs the Selfish. And this transcends the Jedi and the Sith, and we see it in characters like Syril. I love Andor so much!

[@drumlessons833]

Obi-Cyril: _"The Rebellion is evil!"_ Anador: _"In my eyes the Empire is evil!"_

[@stevebreedlove9760]

Both sides are evil.

[@andrewlim9345]

Thanks for using Hannah Arendt’s Banality of Evil as a framework for analysing Syril Karn. Karn certainly had psychological problems. His overbearing Mum reminds me of Principal Skinner’s mother from the Simpson’s.

[@johnsluder7628]

Now that is a great title for your video

[@MCsCreations]

Syril is a really interesting character indeed. He's actually not really dissimilar to some people I knew during my life. It's weird... But sometimes, when I meet someone, I have a feeling that it's better to stay away from that person. Not because the person is bad or anything... But because the person is going to put you in trouble somehow. And, unfortunately, every time I had that feeling it ended up happening. And I have the exact same feeling from Syril. I don't know how to describe. It's just a feeling, really.

[@michaelempey9402]

Every time I had a “warning” sense about someone and I ignored it, I ended up getting hurt in one way or another. I totally get your view. I hope this makes sense to you.

[@MCsCreations]

@@michaelempey9402 It absolutely does. Because that's exactly it... The worst part is that, sometimes you just can't avoid it. Because it's someone you're going to work with, or something like that. 😕

[@christiansky942]

Just like in the book All The Pretty Horses...they should have stayed away from Jimmy Blevins just like their intuition told them

[@rigelspikes9676]

A great analogy would be to use J. Robert Oppenheimer as a subject. I do believe that was what the creators of "Rogue One" was going for... DEATH STAR = ATOM BOMB

[@robderich8533]

Actually in an interview, Mads Mikkelsen noted that his role character Galen Erso bore real-life similarities to J. Robert Oppenheimer and also Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr.

[@nickseavello3017]

Much props to connecting to Arendt.

[@QuestionMan]

The banality of evil then allows for knowing something you are tasked with doing is harmful to others (or evil if done to you) but just not caring because doing so furthers your own ambitions or agendas at no cost to you personally.

[@drumlessons833]

It encourages a dulling of perceptions around the bad act. It distances people from their own empathy and reflection. We see this all throughout the world today. For example, during most of USA history, if you asked anyone how many countries we were at war with, they could name it. We live in times where most people cannot answer that question anymore. We have been embraced by the banality of evil. I'm not unconvinced that Tony Gilroy is trying to communicate this with his many references to the real world.

[@inlonging]

“Ours is not the reason why/ Ours is but to do or die” came to mind.

[@samgriffith9878]

Incredibly thoughtful video. Testament to the show, and testament to you Thor.

[@JoRoq1]

Syril is an antagonist, but not a villain. I see him as a character similar to Inspector Javert from "Les Miserables" (if you aren't familiar with it, the musical movie version with Hugh Jackman is a passable presentation). He is a man who pursues Order, not Peace or Justice. Breaking the law is never excusable, and criminals must receive their due punishment without mercy. Andor has become his avatar for everything wrong in the galaxy, the violation of Order, making Andor his obsessive equivalent to Jean Val Jean (though without the same moral conversion). This is also reflected in Syril's attraction to Dedra. He sees her as a kindred soul, and as one who is in a position to do more than he is able. She recognized and (at the surface) validated his obsession with Andor, thus becoming the shining beacon in the darkness of his life. (Another parallel with the Les Mis musical, where Javert sings about the perfection and order of the stars in the night sky.) He has not seen that she is compromised (from his perspective), willing to break and sacrifice the rules to achieve other ends. If/when he does, he will turn on her and regard her as second only to Andor as a blight on the Order of the Galaxy, a personal betrayal.

[@bondagebritney3124]

🎎 You seem like someone who will enjoy my Syril-finale theory: Saying he can recognize Luthen's voice is very likely to come back into play, along with the way Luthen noted and repeated Dedra's name to Lonny. Somehow Luthen may be key to pushing Syril and Dedra together. Nevermind some of that though, and add in some Manifesto theory too, which clearly has a Manifesto Destiny also. Here's a scenario for finale! 1) Syril might arrest Luthen and/or Andor first on Ferrix. 1a) Luthen might meet Andor first and send him away to help Anto after unexpectedly spending little or no time on Ferrix, promising he can keep the Fondor he's trying to get rid of along with Andor and make it look like Anto is Axis and the Fondor owner, kill 3 birds with one stone, but Saw also helps Anto and they succeed mostly and most escape. 1b) Otherwise more likely Andor will be on Ferrix a lot 2) Syril takes the Manifesto Andor gave to Luthen or from Andor or makes a DATA PAD COPY of the Manifesto! 3) Andor and/or Luthen get away from Syril just before Imperials pick him up and Dedra is mad he's messing around again. 4) Maybe they saw Andor/Luthen get away added to HAVING THE MANIFESTO now Syril looks like a Rebel helping them! 5) Being tortured by Dedra with the screams is a setup way Syril's character can change on a dime, changing his view of what his "fate" to work for "justice and beauty in the galaxy" means for him! -- At this point now we have motive for the "Syril becomes a Rebel" theory, though it's early... BUT i thought of this amazing TWIST: 6) it can also fit into the expected finale format so that Syril then is rescued from the hotel and torture by Ferrix Rebels which will probably include at least one of Luthen's gang, Andor, Vel, Sinta... 7) So at end of finale it looks like Syril might join them and maybe even starts talking about how evil the Empire is now that he saw Bix and was tortured and they didnt believe him about why he had the Manifesto / data etc, 8) BUT in Season 2 we find out he actually doesnt hate the Empire / Dedra they were just doing their job and was understandable since he had the Manifesto or looked suspicious etc. AND HE MAKES HIMSELF A SELF-APPOINTED DOUBLE AGENT FOR DEDRA/EMPIRE !!!! Syril has gigantic setup and would become the first mega pre-set up villain if he eventually advances in Imperial ranks, other than Anakin sort of after the prequels existed hehe. So even if he goes in a predictable becoming bad guy route, he will be one of the most built up ones, especially seeing how he got there without a prequel made later first! To be the obsessed Captain Ahab going crazy Les Miserables type of hunter guy, but not officially being on EITHER SIDE and involved with BOTH as a self appointed double agent maybe even the Rebels are only USING him to be a double-double-agent without knowing sort of etc.... wow he might commit suicide if even after doing this both sides abandon / use / betray him! Being involved with BOTH sides sort of while not officially being on EITHER would make a twist that isnt just okay im a Rebel now I guess, give me a gun, or the obvious but higher than normal quality story of normal Imperial Bad Guy!

[@JoRoq1]

@@bondagebritney3124 I don’t see Syril becoming a rebel, even as a double agent. He’s too dedicated, to the point of being a fault, to the idea of preserving order, and does not have the life experience yet that would allow him to play that kind of subterfuge. I also don’t see him as being successful if he joins the Empire, because of what he would see as the untenable compromises he would be forced to give in to. So far in the show he has an idealized view of the Empire and the ISB maintaining order, somewhat smudged from being chastised by the Imperial for his failure to capture Andor previously. But that stain he blames first on his supervisor and ultimately on Andor. I’m not sure where he will go in this season finale, but ultimately I see three likely ends for him by the end of the series. 1. He jumps into the middle of a situation he should be staying out of and gets killed. 2. He ends up feeling betrayed by Dedra and attacks her, forcing her to take him down. 3. The one I like to continue the parallel with Javert, but is probably the least likely, is he finally faces Andor again, somehow the situation develops where Andor saves his life and then gets away. Syril can’t reconcile that in his mind, and finally commits suicide because nothing in the universe makes sense to him anymore.

[@bondagebritney3124]

@@JoRoq1 I didn't say he would be good at anything or even that he would become a Rebel, an obvious possibility and commonly considered thing. I was connecting how several "Checkov's guns" might fire off surrounding Syril leading to becoming NEITHER of the obvious things, (self appointed double agent). I really like your idea that Dedra is caught in an alley or something for some reason instead of being in the HQ or wherever it is, without many guards, to take her out or something, and because Syril is there snooping can try to be a hero to her and thats what brings them together more... Or wait, you described the reverse scenario which I also like and might happen! Im not familiar with Les Miserables, it sounds there's a parallel in it for that too so it's decent chance you're right!

[@AlecFortescue]

You bringing this up makes me want to see a Star Wars musical even more.

[@drp1bb856]

You can look to very recent history and we witness absolutely jaw dropping behavior by close to 100 cops actually arresting parents and doing nothing while a massacre was happening. The answer given was “we were following orders”. The same with arresting people who were in public when their superiors told them they must be arrested even though there is no law, just a non law. The fact that we saw next to no LE publicly oppose this insanity(pick an example) is terrifying. They are more worried about themselves for whatever motivations is a tremendous cause for alarm.

[@ellicel]

To which event are you referring?

[@gildor8866]

I don't think that is the best example. The cops outside were honestly trying to save parents from harm who wanted to go in themselves. From their point of view it was probably like stopping them from jumping after their drowning child because the professional lifeguards were already taking care of it. The cops inside weren't exactly "following" orders, they were waiting for orders to go in. Certainly at some point somebody should have said "Screw this, I am going in" at which point the entire team probably the rest of the team would have gone in as well. So this was not a case of "just doing their job" but following rules that usually make sense. The problem was that nobody recognized the system had broken down and the guts to "grab the flag, shout Hurra and storm towards the enemy" as Tolstoi once put it.

[@drp1bb856]

@@gildor8866 You proved my point. From “their pov” or to be more on point. They were following orders. Meanwhile a woman they stopped and detained was able to get away from them and save her kids. The examples I used may be very raw, but they are perfect examples of just following orders, and people doing whatever they are told to preserve their lifestyle.

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

@@ellicel Uvalde

[@drp1bb856]

@@ellicel Uvalde, but you can include the shooting at Marjorie stoneman HS in Florida. You can also include the prosecution of Kyle Rittenhouse. All examples are situations that would never have happened if the law was followed, but politics superseded. My point is to bring up a very modern example based on the video, and the example of Adolf Eichmann that Thor used.

[@shanepeterson6475]

Banality of evil takes me back to my sociology classes.

[@christopherdaffron8115]

I know that Tony Gilroy wants the viewers to discover Syril's character over the course of the series, but I wonder what Tony and the writers think of the character of Syril themselves.

[@buskergirl]

This actor is so awkward in interviews, and admires the Deidre actress that I'm staring to think that he is a real life Syril, like Tom Holland is actually Peter Parker.

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

I haven’t seen him in interviews but that’s pretty funny

[@nathanmeyer6743]

I wonder if Syril's father was killed in the Clone Wars and, having lived through that as a child, gave him an obsession with oder at, perhaps, any price

[@TKinfinity01]

Syril is definitely my favourite Character. He has an ambition in life to make something of himself. Something we can all relate to. Just goes to show circumstances matter.

[@LumVaughan]

Syril is a survivor, a man willing to take chances, even long shots, and is surprisingly brave enough to confront powerful and potentially even dangerous people to get his point across. He believes in what he knows and when he makes up his mind, he settles it, which is why he is so single-minded in his pursuit of Cassian. He believes he is good and right in what he does and that might change when he sees just how ruthless the Empire can be. If he doesn't hook up with Dedra, I can see him eventually becoming a rebel. But first his Sith mother must die.

[@lightpoint4426]

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the finale's going to shake out for him. I can't exactly see him outright dying, but his days of relative normalcy are unquestionably over. No way the Empire is letting him back into the bureaucratic meat grinder after he bails to go to Ferrix. I can't see him siding with the Rebellion either, simply because Cassian is going to be in it. But we'll see...

[@GreenLightMe]

Well I know Tony loves tragedy but I think Disney tied his hands on a lot of things. A great closing arc would be for him to die by the hands of the Empire. In the end he's not fit for the Empire. He sees Extreme Order as a true gateway to peace and greatness. The Empire doesn't view order that way, they see it as a shortcut to a better life for a few. If many suffer, SOME can prosper would be their motto.

[@kenknowlton3085]

Syril Karn (ISB Agent Kallus)

[@jaya5920]

star wars is in good hands if it stays in the hands of Andor's creators!

[@jonsather5228]

I think it’s really tough to say which said he lands on, good or bad. It will really come down to his actions in the last episode, I think like all characters he has some good and some bad but what will determine his status will be his action in a critical moment or critical decision

[@mewtwo.150]

So basically.... Is Zuko seeking for his honor towards the Avatar (Andor)

[@adscomics]

In general, I'm a really big fan of how there aren't really any "good guys" in Andor (Except maybe Mon Mothma? But we'll see if that changes after she makes that decision regarding her daughter). Everyone's in a morally grey area, some leaning good, others leaning bad, but never clearly on one side.

[@kensalter]

Can Tony Gilroy and his team re-write 7 of the 9 movies, ObiWan, and Book of Boba? And release it in 3 episode packs weekly for the next 10 years?

[@GreenLightMe]

right lol

[@stevebreedlove9760]

They didnt want to commit past five years to do two seasons. Theres a ton of talent. Stop drawing talent from marvel and other hollywood blockbusters. star wars is awesome because it is a sand box for storytelling.

[@Pupcan]

Two bits which still baffle and fascinate me about Syril Karn are: 1. Around his mother, he verbally stands his ground rather than knuckles under to her. 2. When he is first brought in for questioning by the ISB, throughout the scene he has the body language and tone of voice of someone who's there for a job interview, not as someone who thinks he's in trouble. i.e. The director could have taken the easy way out and simply had Syril Karn portrayed as a glass workplace bully who is terrified of those above him and a terror to those below him.

[@RedcoatTrooper]

Great video, many people didn't get the "fired mall cop eating cereal" character but you nailed his meaning in the universe.

[@CantankerousDave]

The Terry Pratchett book Small Gods goes into detail about this topic.

[@ClassicMagicMan]

He's the trope of a Boy Scout, tries to do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, but is fairly mediocre at doing it. The fact that he's mediocre (and recently failed) makes others look down upon him, treat him almost like a burden, exacerbates the longing he has deep inside: to be validated. He's not a bad guy (argument for being a part of a bad guy organization, but that's beside the point) he's a Boy Scout that desperately wants someone to recognize that fact, but he's instead received with scorn. I will say though, that stalking Diedre was 100% over the line. Simpery is inexcusable over a certain age, he should have had better control over his hormones.

[@robertbemis9800]

Siril might not be a bad guy now, but I can see him becoming a serial killer with little pushing

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

yeah the stalking was way out of line

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

@@robertbemis9800 LOL maybe

[@JeffWiersma]

Excellent philosophical and sociological analysis.

[@theMindwalker]

I think what Cassian did in the beginning of Rogue One set the tone for the overall movie. This was needed to let the audience know it was going to take itself seriously. I appreciate you making videos like this, showing the analogies, metaphors and symbolism to better understand the deeper meanings in Star Wars. Excellent video as always Thor.

[@neilwilson5785]

Andor does what he must. He's a pragmatist who isn't an evil person.

[@SoCalDude1793]

I have a feeling he will become a rebel NCO and then take on a leadership role in the rebellion.

[@matthewminson490]

I really want Syril to be the one that ID's Luthen and finally becoming useful to Dedra. I also want him to get his job back or even brought under someone and mentor him making him a threat for something later on.

[@theempiredidnothingwrong3227]

That shut down his old office. I mean he could join the ISB.

[@allwalledup]

@@theempiredidnothingwrong3227 I have a feeling that syril is going to be andors arch nemesis. He starts off as this pathetic wimp but over the episodes slowly grows to prove himself as a major threat, until he’s eventually at tarkin / krennic levels

[@edmarsouza4811]

I can barely wait to see a dialogue between Syril and Andor, maybe after he talks to Andor he will go to the bright side and see things with other perspective

[@svendhooghe6725]

He's the lawful good who turns to the dark side to "help restore order" for the greater good. Huge mommy issues. In SW that's the classic Anakin story but from a guy without any power nor skills.

[@justinbloomfield1589]

I'm now left wondering if the Solo vs Greedo changes could be removed and it return to the original cut...I always thought that was done as a 'we can't have the good guy be a bad guy' as at the time I thought that noone thought too much of it until the changes were made and then made it stand out. Maybe it was a case of keeping the lines of good vs bad completely seperate. 'It was self defense as no good guy would shoot first'.. In reality its a look at the bigger picture and at the time I think they didnt want to blur the lines... the way Andor works is its 100% in the reality of war... those lines can totally be blurred for the bigger picture. Thats what makes this show so good... it makes you think and if your paying attention and loving the character development you can then think about how relatable these situations are in the context of us right here and now. Well I'm rambling a bit, but thats part of what I get from it. I'm old.. I was born in 76 and have loved Star Wars since seeing the original on vhs and being able to see all 3 at a local drive-in with my dad in 83 when Jedi came out... Andor is so good. I hope more people watch it and see how well done it is on every level. First time I've commented on any posts since finding the page a while ago. Thanks Thor. You provide a real straight up take and a convo starter to those that care to listen and have always done it with your opinion on the table but also are able and willing to have an indepth discussion with those playing without the whole 'you dont agree with me so you are wrong' that unfortunately is part of the intrawebbs/keywarrior world we live in. Thanks again. Look forward to your next breakdown of the finale tomoz.. good stuff mate.

[@jimtsikos7712]

Will you do heros and villans poll for the knights of ren ??

[@cab4]

Hah, we're in Prince Uldren territory: The line between light and dark is so very VERY thin, do you know on which side you stand?

[@diinouhothead9362]

No moral conflicts, Guardian. The Hive are evil, if they have the Light, it means light and dark do not matter. It's a matter of being Hive or not.

[@manishpatel2525]

After knowing what they did to Bix, he HAD to do it.

[@istari0]

Right now I think Syril is driven by a desire for justice for both the two security people Andor killed and for himself being mistreated in the aftermath of all that instead of being supported. He's very much a law and order type so he supports the Empire but whether he really understands what awful things the Empire does in the name of law and order is unknown. Assuming he survives, Syril (and the audience) will learn more about what sort of person he is in the finale.

[@scottgray4602]

Would like to see a comparison of Syril and Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf. They are not exactly the same, but I get similar vibes.

[@GreenLightMe]

He's definitely not EVIL himself. He works for EVIL. There's a difference. He's ambitious. If he was ambitious about Charity he might be the galaxy's best Philanthropist. His ambition is order. Definitely don't see him as evil or even bad. He's just very narrow minded.

[@drumlessons833]

Did you watch the new finale episode early and then post a video about it without spoiler warnings? I see one scene I don't recognize and I'm afraid to continue in the video. Nevermind! I forgot R1 existed

[@christopherdaffron8115]

The end justifies the means.

[@d15p4tch6]

He has a bit of culpability: his boss was basically 100% right about what happened, and Syril just didn't believe it. He assumed that the officers were murdered.

[@cmd31220]

I don't see Syril Karn as a bad guy at all. He's only an antagonist because of Andor's own actions. Like, as far as he knows, he's trying to bring a double-murderer to justice, and is stuck having to work around a corrupt system to do it. Objectively hes a better person that Luthen, a "good guy". We as an audience only recognize him as a bad guy because he works for the corporation and the empire, both of which are only illegitimate power structures because we know the wider story. The regular Joe in the star wars universe just considers then to be the norm. Like, imagine if your government was secretly taken over by an evil wizard nazi. You wouldn't know. You'd just think everything had gone on as normal. Hell, you'd probably have VOTED for them because the evil of the empire is rationalized to the public in a way that's so convincing that the only reason you WOULDNT like him is because his new laws were a slight inconvenience. Remember, 99% of Germans didn't know the true evils of the Nazi government until after the war when the truth was brought to light. This is also why I think in the finally, Karn will "switch sides" because he'll see the empire's corruption and misdeeds for what they are and realize the justice he's fighting for is actually on the side of the rebels.

[@zevle176]

from a certain point of view, cassian andor is a cop killer, and syril karn wants to bring him to justice. on a separate note, what was the academy that luke skywalker wanted to attend, but uncle owen wanted to delay him? i thought that was an imperial academy. but later in the movie, he tells ben kenobi that he hates the empire.

[@IsaacKuo]

It was the imperial academy. The Imperial Academy was the only show in town. In deleted scenes, his friend Biggs confides to Luke that he's not coming back after he returns to the Imperial Academy. He and some classmates have decided to steal a ship and join the Rebellion. I think that almost all of the Rebel pilots had Imperial Academy training, and that Biggs's plan was typical.

[@chasehedges6775]

Syril Karn is a character who i really sympathize with. He just wants to fulfill his purpose and be loyal to the Empire.

[@Striker163videos]

Never has a Star Wars show so thoroughly explored Totalitarianism in power, along with its peculiar ideology of total domination from within through the mass atomization of the whole people, brought about from isolation and erosion of the public trust, and the total elimination of spontaneity in people's lives. These are the preconditions for turning the actions of every person into reactions so one person cannot be defined separately from all the others. Under such conditions, resistance becomes near impossible as not 1o people can come together and form bonds of trust and any semblance of common humanity becomes harder and harder to identify as thinking is replaced by conditioned responses. Totalitarian power, in the views of its leaders, is basically created through the organization of isolated people who are atomized into individual units whose coming together, essentially, draw power, similarly to how friction or galvanic currents generate electricity. As a result, these movements tend to openly defy rationality by adhering to an endless and structureless momentum that must always remain in motion. The only way to enforce this kind of continuous mass momentum is through constant terror and constant purges. Violence, intolerance, and hatred are not based on any constitutionalized set of principles; it’s simply what allows an atomized group of people to remain organized and provides the momentum so necessary for Totalitarian organizations to carry out their murderous and dominating objectives for dominations sake alone. And never has a show more embodied that the best defense against such an ideology is spontaneity and love because the only thing that holds it together is hate and terror.

[@kierstinschmidt2514]

The imperial pay should be good. The Empire always seemed to have unlimited resources. Then again, you don’t build 1, million Star Destroyers by giving money away. And also they never seem to have any money for safety railings.

[@NotoriousTim]

Anakin's story IS simple though, nothing really complicated or confusing about it.

[@thorskywalker]

I'm saying there's depth to the story, not that it's hard to understand.

[@CarlMadsen]

Why did they switch hats? Sergeant Linus Mosk and Syril Karn?

[@CarlMadsen]

"Generation Tech Shorts" believes it's so they would recognize each other in a crowd.

[@ralphmilano8918]

i see alot of him in the real world.

[@Semolina97]

Syril is star wars version of Arnold J Rimmer from red dwarf! Change my mind.

[@MoYvStarkey]

Syril will take the place of Andor and will be killed slowly Andor to escape.

[@psiwire]

This is kind of an insane take. Typically the Syril character, essentially an ex-cop trying to clear his name by tracking down a thief/killer/terrorist, would be the hero of the story and he certainly holds the moral high ground in this story. Andor has no redeeming qualities except for the fact that he ostensibly loves his adopted mother/kidnapper.

[@bitchoflivingblah]

Not insane but on the money i'd say, you have just described as an example the movie Bladerunner and the role of the detective Deckhard, and the Cassian Andor equivalent in this movie would be the replicant Roy Batty (and his redeeming feature his love of life and his girlfriend Pris). It would be so amazing if Syril came out the other end because he shows true dedication to his role, he's not evil, just seeking true justice for the deaths of two Preox-Morlana security men.

[@bitchoflivingblah]

@@priyapepsi I wouldn't say his motives are better, I would classify them as being purer. If we think in this way then we can discriminate between moral (better) and amoral behaviour. And this then takes you back to the start where Chief Hyne specifically points out the disreputable behaviour of Kravas to Syril in an attempt to forestall any further inquiry into his death. I'd agree at this stage Syril's motives are 'better' and moral as well as being pure. I suppose the question then is to what degree is that morality eroded and does this impinge on Syril's (pure) motive. I think that was the point of showing Sergeant Mos in the final scene on Ferrix, his moral motives seems to have been shot to sh*t by witnessing the massacre. Any degradation or loss of moral certainty on Syril's behalf will almost certainly be counterbalanced by his love for Deedra. This show is soo damn good. I recall someone mentioning that the Andor writers worked on 'House of Cards' so it appears they were steeped in moral ambiguity.

[@dank.6942]

His mother is undeniably why he is the way he is....and I'm sure he thinks avenging the corporate cops who Cassian killed is the "right" and just thing to do. The saddest part is, his supervisor was right. They were in the wrong and got what was coming to them. The "right", AKA best, thing to do was to write it up to look like they died as heroes. Heaven forbid the whole truth come out. Cyril is the worst kind of zealot....made possible by the mother's behavior.

[@mep1990]

The social awkwardness and the obsessive tendencies make me think that maybe Syril is somewhere on the autism spectrum. And his unrelenting (and obsessive) pursuit of justice and his unflinching believe in upholding the law, I think would make him a decent or even good agent of the law in a less corrupt and authoritarian regime. Unfortunately, what would have been positive traits in a good environment make him easy to radicalise and, potentially, become a whole-hearted supporter of the empire. Although they are clearly very different people, I believe we are seeing in Syril's story an explanation of how Yulareen might have become a supporter of the empire. As Spartacus Olsen says, we'd like to think that we would never support or do the terrible things the nazis did in WW2, and yet, millions of germans and thousends of non-germans did support nazism, at least to some extent,. Who is to say, given a particular environment and social preassure if any of us wouldn't have been amongst them? But back to Syril, even with his character flaws, in the Republic, he could have been a good officer. But, whether it is somewhat autism or simply mommy issues, he would definately benefit from professional help.

[@garytobar6385]

Es tipo es muy peligroso, es un fanático.

[@deepashtray5605]

It strikes me that Syril would be a fringe character in most any society and someone vulnerable to becoming an extremist on either side of the conflict. The series takes place at a time when the vast majority of galactic citizens see the Empire more as a necessary inconvenience and have as yet to see it as a serious threat to their way of life. What the Rogue One chapters are doing that has been starkly lacking in the rest of the Star Wars narrative is introducing ambiguity to the fight between good vs evil. More than anything Andor is not a space opera so much as futuristic dystopian science fiction, which I see as a maturing point for the epic.

[@simonyesh]

So, when is the Battle of the Heroes and Villains coming back?

[@thorskywalker]

It will return probably next week. Was just waiting for Andor to end.

[@JohnnyLodge2]

Not sure how Syril can be viewed as evil. He may have been early antagonist but for as far as he knows Cassian murdered 2 of his coworkers outside of a strip club. And then all he does is try to get justice for them.

[@luhedi6303]

Good soldiers follow orders.

[@ic0nic707]

ayo what’s happening to the comments?

[@station7thedoor]

I gotta mostly disagree with your assessment. Syril is an idealist who really believes in justice, in right and wrong. If he was in it to further his career, or for personal gain or recognition, he would not have taken the actions he has taken. If he was truly in it for the Empire, he wouldn't be breaking so many rules. Syril's character is actually way more similar to Nemik; a true believer looking for a just cause. The only reason he currently seems more aligned with the Empire, is because he (mistakenly) believes that the Empire represents a just cause. I think his trip is going to be a real wake up call as to the evil the Empire represents.

[@thorskywalker]

I'm not sure you watched the video if you think I'm implying Syril was in it for personal gain...

[@station7thedoor]

I found these bits confusing and contradictory: “He doesn’t seem to be all that interested in being a part of something where he can advance a career and make a name or a life for himself… though I do think that’s part of it, or his desire to join the Empire.” “…and thus his motivations are not truly altruistic as a Jedi’s would be, but rather much like Blevin and the others, who see the Empire as an opportunity for personal gain or wealth or status or whatever else it might be…” Now, you followed up that first statement with the idea that he is trying to prove his mother wrong. I think there’s something to that, but I don’t think you’ve quite nailed the details. I don’t think he has any desire to prove anything TO his mom, I don’t get the impression he particularly cares what she thinks. He IS trying to prove something to HIMSELF, though. It seems like his family is in someway involved in crime, especially in regards to Uncle Harlo. We get the statement from his mom about Uncle Harlo disapproving of Syril’s choice to do police work. Harlo pulls strings and gets him that job, which Syril takes, but he’s clearly not happy about it. To me, Syril is a guy trying to escape the legacy of his family. You followed up your second statement with: “Syril sees catching Andor as the potential for self-satisfaction or gratification.” I think you have fundamentally misdiagnosed his motivations. What is your basis for thinking his desire to bring a murderer to justice is any less altruistic than a Jedi’s? Or any different? He stands nothing to gain from his actions other than catching the killer, and pretty much risks losing everything to accomplish that goal. It seems to me that he is motivated by nothing more than a belief in and a yearning for justice, which is roughly analogous to Nemik’s motivations.

[@mecurian485]

I have to disagree somewhat. I can imagine Syril as a child standing in the classroom, and while the other children singer along to the national anthem of the Empire (or whatever its equivalent is) Syril took every word sung seriously and resolutely. He is a true believer. He honestly believes that the Empire is a force for good in the Galaxy and based upon his speech to Dedra he desperately wants to be part of that "good". Syril views himself as the hero on the underworld part of his hero's journey. This can be seen by the way he, unprompted, explains how he was hard done by for doing his job (which is true) to his new boss, and then by the way he continues to pursue Andor in the only way he can. Further his interactions with Dedra are almost romantic. He seems to view her as the heroine in his tale, as he believes that she has his best interests at heart by being instrumental in getting him his promotion. Syril believes, and that's what makes him so interesting. He is not part of the banality of evil. He is not "just doing his job", he is a tragic hero, who just happens to be on the wrong side.

[@thorskywalker]

Sigh... I sometimes wonder if people actually listen to what I say in the videos? Because I literally say how someone like Blevins is a part of The Banality of evil, who is just all about his career, and then there are other types like Syril who don't fall into it...

[@mecurian485]

@@thorskywalker I'll watch it again.

[@thorskywalker]

@Mecurian You by no means have to do that, and I apologize if I came off a bit harsh. I probably didn't make myself as clear in the video as I hoped I did about Syril and the banality of evil.

[@mecurian485]

@@thorskywalker Dude I respect you a great deal, and I was trying to give a slightly different take. If I got it wrong I apologize. I really like your work and appreciate your efforts and those of your wife's. Thank you. You're a good guy.

[@AlecFortescue]

He's literally me... Syril did nothing wrong. He deserves to be happy.

[@Force_Of_Habit]

He's an anti villain

[@Sam_T2000]

Syril’s arc was by far my biggest disappointment with the story of Season 1… after his first three-episode arc, I thought he’d end up going a little mad and do something rather shocking, and either end up killing someone unexpected, or getting himself killed… but all he did was rescue Dedra from a stampede, and didn’t even get a kiss 🤷🏻‍♂️