A Lost WAR of the Indo-European Gods? The Mythology of Conflict

[@kaushalsuvarna5156]

Can you focus more on the Devas vs Asuras in another video, especially concerning that the Asuras are revered in Iranian peoples vs Devas in the Indians, and that these cultures shared boundaries and even some gods like Mithra and Varuna

[@toddmcdaniels1567]

This is why I didn't find the differences between the Vedic and Nordic themes as being a difference in kind.

[@mlucasGrindstone]

Consider they were at one time family groups that fought like the Hatfields and McCoys Andover Generations the enmity became codified

[@backonrun626]

​@@toddmcdaniels1567 Early Iranian Gods were related to Vedic gods but later when they followed the prophecy of Zoroastria everything become shuffled.

[@backonrun626]

A Deo can become Asur by doing wrong in the eye of other Gods.

[@kaushalsuvarna5156]

@@backonrun626 that seems to be much later story modification, told by either side I'm more interested in the times when they were friendly

[@Crowhag]

As Heraclitus would have said, "War is the father of all and the king of all; it proves some people gods, and some people men." Strife as a condition of existence is sacralized in our timeless memorial to remind us of its fundamental function rather than our past. Excellent delivery, Jon!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you for your beautiful words and kind thoughts Radiana

[@casparbrock7441]

"Only when a mosquito lands on a man's balls does he truly realize that not everything can be solved with violence." -Sun Tzu

[@veerswami7175]

@@casparbrock7441 you made my day

[@StalinLovsMsmZioglowfagz]

@@Crecganford It’s always seemed to me that these Anunnaki “gods” changed their names, threw our shared tongue into a babbling confusion of mutually incomprehensible languages, and started wars of competing cults and empires all as a grand strategy of divide and conquer. A psychopathic crowd control on a global scale, as a kind of cultural terrorism far more terrifying than anything even Orwell could have dreamt up, and quite along the lines of our own modern megalomaniacal globalists dystopian transhumanist lunatic fringe plans for our future enslavement. Fortunately our own narcissistic elitist lunatics are egotistically incapable of even beginning to comprehend that they’re pathetically incapable of ever matching said gods, on every, and any conceivable level. Except, perhaps psychopathy.

[@StalinLovsMsmZioglowfagz]

@@Crecganford The two camps are just Enlilites and Enkiites, the way I understood it, right?

[@the_unfiltered_truth7181]

Devas (Suras) - The one in Tune (represents Order) The Asuras - The ones who are away from tune (represents Chaos). The idea is that Vishnu a.k.a. Shiva understands that both Order and Chaos are important for balance in the universe.

[@-rate6326]

Bro don't make weird assumptions. First you westerners destroyed karma then mantra. Vishnu is not Shiva. Adityas are good Asuras. Anahit is sura.

[@thethreespikes9737]

​@@-rate6326maturity is when you realise that vishnu is shiva shiva is vishnu. They are just to tattvas or principals of same reality. The guy has no weird assumption, he is telling you the truth.

[@-rate6326]

@@thethreespikes9737 thats from the follower's point of view.

[@Mukawakadoodoo]

@@-rate6326 absolutely not. Vishnu and shiva are both just merely aspects of a greater entity. He is saying the truth.

[@southstar9931]

@@thethreespikes9737 Not exactly. Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, and Shiva is the destroyer. They may be part of one God but they are not the same when using the names shiva and vishnu. You can MAKE THE ASSUMPTION that they part of the same reality but to say Vishnu is the same as Shiva is incorrect.

[@PerksJ]

Bres is the son of Eiru, and husband of Brigid, but there are many similarities between Eiru and Brigid as sovereignty goddesses and Bres and Balor, who is named as Bres’ father in some stories. Funnily enough, Balor is the grandfather of Lugh, Bres’ greatest enemy. It is so cool to see the recycling of archetypes in all these stories.

[@mlucasGrindstone]

Consider these family groups always infighting, the loser being cast out to invade elsewhere

[@ammitthedevourerofsouls]

​@@mlucasGrindstone So they were cast out and invade? Are they a parasite? Any respectable god or king wouldn't invade. That's how you get cast out. Cheating lying stealing invading crossing over without permission killing sacrificing they always get pummeled into submission until they submit to our True Prime Creator God that created the gods and kings and reminds them they're tiny little g compared to Big G. It's mainly just egos clashing everywhere it's absolutely horrifying.

[@gula9993]

One of Durga's 108 names is Aindre, also called Caindre. So here we are in the conflict of light vs. dark duality when the snake charmer constellation became the heavenly physician. Thank you ever so much for your work on cultural evolution. it's ever a delight to find a new video.

[@yoeyyoey8937]

Ophiucus and Asclepius?

[@cavemancaveman5190]

Screams Indian influence

[@Pinicle_of_evolution]

​@@cavemancaveman5190 *Vedic/hindu influence

[@mathiasjonsson8222]

I'm so happy I found this channel. The amount of nonsense, Ancient Aliens, Alternative researchers and what not on KZbin is disheartening. This channel is quite the opposite. You earned yourself a sub 👍😊

[@Crecganford]

Thank you for your kind words.

[@shivnegi6614]

As per RIG VEDA after battle of 10 kings (DAS RAJAN YUDDH) in BHARAT(ancient india) 9 Kings expelled who establish new regions persua(today persia), hellas(today Greece) etc follow some similar Hindu gods with different names.

[@Dice_roller]

You are preaching pseudo-historic nonsense, boy. Ancient Greece, Persia, and more - are not of Indic descent, nor did they worshipped any Hindu or Vedic deities.

[@shravyaamin8346]

True

[@juliahenriques210]

Gotta love how you constructed the video without nothing but subtle hints at the position you'd lay out in the end. That's for sure a way of keeping people with opposing views interested until they're smacked in the head with a huge flat "No, they weren't." Pure rethorical gold. :) That said, it would be interesting to look at conflicts in other mythologies to try and identify which human conflicts seemed important to them at that seminal point. The Chinese and the Mesoamericans come to mind as a rich source of potential future videos. ;)

[@titanomachy2217]

I find it noteworthy how the frost giants fighting the gods in Nordic mythology is a parallel to the Olympian gods fighting the Gigantes. Maybe for those two mythologies the Proto-Indo-European version of the conflict got split into two distinct stories, with the Vanir and Titans filling the role with a more positive connotation (that may sound strange regarding Titans but the Greco-Roman mythological Golden Age was supposed to have occurred while Kronos/Cronus was king of the gods, whereas Zeus/Jupiter presides over the less ideal following ages, plus the Titan Prometheus gave mankind the knowledge of fire while Zeus/Jupiter didn't want us to have it) and the Jotun and giants filling a more ambivalent or negative role, sort of akin to the Fomorrians and other giants in Celtic mythology. I also noticed the motif of outdoorsman versus sedentary lifestyle reoccurs in the myth of Esau and Jacob, complete with an ensuing conflict betweem the progeny of each, the Edomites and Israelites, which the biblical text gives the connotation of good (Israelites) versus evil (Edomites) and divine blessings are conferred upon the former. Oddly enough, while asuras are considered the demonic ones in Hindu mythology and devas are the good ones, in Persian mythology it is the opposite, in fact in Zoroastrianism the good God is Ahura Mazda while daevas are considered demons, with Ahriman or Angra Manyu filling the role of a devil.

[@leekestner1554]

There is also a tie in from the early Greek stories of Dionysus. Rhea, the daughter of Gaia from Anatolia, puts out a call through the eastern Mediterranean for the men of the Greeks to come and fight the men of India because they have told "A Lie". They were heretics. So Dionysus comes from Crete to fight against the men of India. The archeological record shows the tribes in Persia splitting into and the southern group migrating to Northern India. No archeological evidence has been identified as conflict during this but it is not ruled out either.

[@faar2faar]

What's also interesting is these two "teams" so to speak, were also recorded in the myths of every continent. Major differences do occur though, Australian aboriginals for example, do not have a war with these other people, the other people simply move to the harder to live places before becoming one with the clouds or some other local natural phenomena. So I think it is interesting that the "war" took place specifically in the indo European complex, but other groups knew of these differences further afield but did not end up in a violent conflict with each other. It's interesting to think that this story played out all over the globe at almost the same time but only the indo Europeans sought war as the solution.

[@paulh2468]

Really enjoying your lectures. By chance I was watching "Chimp Empire" earlier today, about the intergroup warfare/conflict in the Ngogo forest of Uganda. Chimps have been documented for decades engaging in what closely resembles human tribal warfare, for political and resource control purposes. I'd suggest that mythological stories of war and conflict are attempts to understand and explain this inherent (genetic) propensity of all human societies to go to war. It's a behaviour not limited to PIE culture and myth. Unfortunately, it's going on right now in the same geographic area that the PIE culture originated: Southern Russia/Ukraine. The genetic difference between Chimps and Homo Sapiens is only 2%.

[@yogibear496]

There are trillions of genes in that 2 percent, it’s much more than you think, consider you share dna with a banana, most of the code revolves around you even existing

[@morgan97475]

I think I'd really enjoy a video with you & Randall Carlson discussing these myths. Truly fascinating channel.

[@alexlarsen6413]

I find this video brilliant! The arguments are rigorous and empirically concrete, while being laid out in such a clear fashion. In all honesty, they personally shook me out of some of my own preconceived notions. The parts I found most convincing were those at the very beginning and the very end...like; conflict being symbolically focused on the tension and its resolution more than on the battle itself. Likewise, the ending argument of these myths being way more nuanced than popularly thought, with no large overarching wars, is very convincing to me. Thanks a bunch for this!

[@josephpercy1558]

That's part of the problem with modern interpretation. "Empirically concrete" is an expression of empiricism, a small branch of epistemological knowledge, which is only a tiny fraction of the cosmic Tree of Knowledge afforded to humanity. Don't hang your stockings on "rigorous" or "concrete." Go further!

[@kaarlimakela3413]

Which reminds me of our gorilla cousins. There was much beating of the chest!

[@c.sc.9353]

I just love your delving into the mysteries of ancient myths and tales! Fascinating!

[@richarddegener]

Really good insights, my dear Sir. Thanks you for this disquisition. Very much appreciated. (Big fan of your channel here)

[@RickyDog1989]

Title and thumbnail lured me in and prepared me for a pseudo-historical, highly dramatized video full of unproven conjectures. But I am very glad to see the video is much more nuanced and well researched. I loved the conclusions. Good job!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@ladyflimflam]

23:24 and brought bang up to date in the 20th century with a musical number in that great american myth Oklahoma! That is, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.😊

[@timothygervais9036]

Another great video Jon! Most educational as always. Looking forward to your next class, keep up the great work. Have a great weekend!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@3ekaust]

Perfect timing i was browsing what to watch before work! 🎉

[@DanDarden]

The conflict between the Farmer and the Cowman is as old as time. I pointed out the plot of Oklahoma! to my wife,(and had to pause to go watch the video for "The Farmer and the Cowman should be friends") and she pointed out the movie McClintock. Same same.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Great vid - so much packed into 26 minutes!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@_S0me__0ne]

Wow! Cain and Abel! That didn't even dawn on me until you connected it here.

[@DeepDarkSamurai]

Tell us about the horse! Tell us about the dawn! I'm excited to hear about the goddess you mentioned, especially since horses have such prominent symbology

[@Crecganford]

I will with time, there will be some horse videos soon with stories of sacrifice and solar gods.

[@phillipmargrave]

Ok bronie

[@Neenerella333]

@@phillipmargrave 😄 That's hilarious and lovely at the same time. 🐴

[@Brandon-a-writer]

Do you work with specific persons for subtitles? If so, I would not be averse to providing subs for you in Hebrew and Russian, if it would help at all! Translating from a script would be much easier than from the videos, so if there is a way you could point me to a transcript or a general script I would love to contribute as much as I am able. Love these videos, the deep past and primal religious tendencies of humanity are two of the most interesting subjects in academia. If I can help promote the reach of these videos by providing more translations, just leave a comment and tell me how that is done! great vids as always, Jon. These are such gems, your channel deserves all (and much more) of the praise it gets. Cheers mate.

[@hugespinner4890]

most YT vids have a transcript to"read along with" think it's word for word of the subtitles not 100% sure. is that what you meant? i only communicate in English with a very limited understanding of Auslan that I'm trying to improve but think there would be a great value in having other languages available

[@Crecganford]

I do transcribe the video myself in English to ensure my captions are correct, and then use Google's auto-translate feature. It's not perfect, and I am working on ways to make it better, or maybe even including audio of other languages.

[@hugespinner4890]

@@Crecganford Google's auto translate can be awful especially with accents

[@Brandon-a-writer]

@@Crecganford I would have no problem with taking some of those and making copies in Russian and Hebrew if you would like man. Some of those auto-translate sites are pretty rough, especially with accent, slang, and turns of phrase. I love these videos, and if you can reach more people who don't speak english, I would not mind taking the time to make sure at least those languages in which I am fluent are properly transcribed. English is not my native language, so I can understand what missing out on great content due to the language barrier is like. If there is a way to access those scripts to translate your videos, I don't mind doing it when time permits. And I hope it goes without saying I'm not trying to get anything in return! I don't comment on every video, but I watch each and every one you upload!

[@chingchingbling2145]

Glad I found this chanel!

[@Christopher_Pug]

Love this channel. This is an excellent, intriguing entry. Thank you!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you so much.

[@priestessholleywood]

Interesting! (22:27) Could apply to Jacob and Esau as well, one being from tents and one being a hunter.

[@msct6080]

Just amazing to see how well versed and knowledgeable you are to even start recreating myths and linking them to corresponding events, waves through civilizations and time to even understanding concepts and view points of peoples long ago. I always overestimated the importance of STEM but have since reconsidered the importance that languages could give us for historical back tracking and understanding societies. You are one of the real rare gems compared to the industrial and/or fake diamonds you can find anywhere these days.

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@cybersid]

In Indian mythology there's depiction of war between the suras (gods) and asuras (demons). Now, in Mesopotamian history there are references of Asuras. Are both the Asuras same ? It may create a historical bridge between the middle East and Indian subcontinent. Perhaps you can make a video on this topic.

[@Szymek25]

you will find a bridge but it leads back to eastern Europe... Devas - dziewczyna - girl dziw - miracle, oddness, dziewanna - a goddess, Drzewo - a tree Góra/Gura - up, above, mountain, higher Szczyt - mountain top, the highest Brama - gate, passage, entrance Drewno - wood Drzwi - the door Trawa - grass Koło, Letter Ą - sound Aum If you consider origin of word Deva in Dreva/Drevo or could explain how concept of Deva gods comes from forest people whose main cult were trees and holy forest beings. We don't have Asura beings but it has that first letter A which means negation so Non Sura, if Sura is just another name of Deva than it makes sense as Adevas We also lost some words as many totemic names were sacred like Boar/Bear so we used a replacement word explaining the function of God like Perun from Per meaning to thrust, heat, beat for Thunder God And med ved - honey know - animal knowing where the honey is to call bear There was also a might ancestor of bull and cow called Tur - which word wasn't used as root for other words as it was sacred except maybe duży meaning big, massive there was also important root OR meaning strong, fertile, fast growing in words like Orzeł - eagle or Orzech - but tree which was second most sacred after Oak which we call Dąb plus maybe related with word Dobro - good, goodness, wealth, moral good Indoeuropean culture didn't have fight between gods it had a separated realms of Heavenly God of order and Underground God of death, rebirth with own realm they didn't need to fight that's the principle of ying and Yang in everything in balanced amount harmony of elements even opposite ones if Gods fought it ment people fighting between themselves and one group represented invaders trying to change our ways and this basic principle

[@Egilhelmson]

Both asuras are the same, the spiritual patrons of the Iranians, who tried to invade through the passes into Afghanistan then into West Pakistan. Both devas were the same as well, the patrons of the Indus people, and thus the enemies of the Iranians (and source of the word “devil”).

[@backonrun626]

Asurgan in indian mythology isn't used for bad everytime, a DEVA can become Asura if does bad for anything that's considered Asuriya.

[@grilledleeks6514]

@user-pd3kr6mh6q provide evidence or pipe down, nerd

[@nnnn3808]

Great video as usual. So, the actual motiff here is CONFLICT itself, rather than who took part in it or what was at stake in it. Basically, an affirmation of conflict as inevitable part of life, even constitutive to it.

[@Im-Kaspa]

To me it seems as if it was two cultures that came into contact violently and it just went back and forth 'raiding'......no real final battle and never would be....it would make sense for a smart ruler living near the borders try to live with them and eventually merging into one over time....we know very well the changes in borders in todays day and age between countries (in most cases not even close to city states back then more large villages at most) so it makes sense to me this is a throwback to a real event. As they say no smoke without fire (as we learnt with troy, this being the first and best example i could think of) so fascinating jon!! Keep it up brother 💪🏻💪🏻✊🏻✊🏻 honestly youve taught me things which has broadened my understanding of migrations of language and cultures. THANK YOU SO MUCH!! Not only learnt new things but built on my knowledge in ways i never thought about. Fantastic channel

[@johncollier7419]

...or a beer, and welcome to Crecganford!"

[@Crecganford]

This is acceptable.

[@johncollier7419]

Then cheers! Jon, do you reckon some of these stories about the origins and activities of ancient deities are inspired by or related to astronomical events?

[@shawnasmith5332]

"Missed it by that much " Don Adams...great video , hasty conclusion on the great war .

[@adambayer7639]

I feel like you and ESTORICA would provide a wonderful co-analysis of the most ancient origins of the biblical creation story.

[@peggyryan2851]

Interesting. Thank you for the subtitles.

[@95DOIDO]

Awesome video as always, there is also the conflict between two slavic/baltic deities, Perun or Perkunas, and Veles or Velinas, it's like a Thor and Loki relationship, Perun is thunder god or sky father, he is always trying to catch Veles who is a kind of nature/animal-related god, Iread that people used to say that every time a lightning strikes a tree, it's because Veles is bellow it and Perun wanted to hit him, the motivation behind their beef is unknown to me, I've read some stuff, but is kinda hard since english isn't my first language and I know nothing about russian/polish/lithuanian/bulgarian and all other slavic and baltic languages, but it has something to do with Veles kidnapping one of Perun's sons, or something like that. I also always considered the "war in haven" to be a kind of war between gods, even with the bible being a monotheistic text, angels and heavenly creatures are divine beings, with power and knowledge far beyond humans, they are gods by definition, so...

[@zoobee]

the Indian epics of the Mahabarata indeed the whole Hindu cosmology is full of battles and wars and conflicts between Gods. Could this stem from these original roots you discuss?

[@435anubhav]

Not at all Mahabharata is about war between cousins for the kingdom! Yes a god was involved in it but he only gave advice

[@sudarshangopinathan5904]

​@@435anubhavhave you even read the Mahabharata? Arjuna literally goes to Dev Loka to fight alongside the Gods

[@justadummy8076]

Mahabharata takes place in real life locations found in India, it doesn’t map well onto the Yamnaya mountain regions

[@LordLaavineshNithianandan]

One thing it is not the samudra mandhan but the Mahabharata where it’s Pandavar vs Dhurvodhanar , excellent video ❤

[@ianwild66]

A very enlightening video. I was interested in hearing about what, if any connection there was between the myths of early European cultures in relation to a great battle. Your evidence is very good for there not being a connection. Thank you for clarifying the issue.

[@BoostavaTheGreat]

I'm new to your channel and I wasn't sure about watching you at first, because there are so many crap mythology videos on this site that I don't trust any without watching a few vids, but this is like the second or third of yours that I've watched and that conclusion leads me to believe you are a person truly pursuing history of these fascinating mythologies without an overtly corrupt agenda. Subscriber earned, good sir.

[@Crecganford]

Thank you. Yes, this is exactly what I want to achieve, honest academic teaching of mythology and religious history at a high level.

[@hindurashtra63]

Im a Hindu. I tried to trace the Ancestor of my People. It seems the earliest I can go back is Akkadians. The Native Language I speak today sounds very similar to Akkadian Language. Westerners dont realize how much India and Iran are similar. Ancient Persian and Indian Lanaguage share 95% similar Grammar !!! Ancient India and Ancient Persia were the same Civilization !!! Several Persian words like Shah are originally derived from Ancient Indian Word - "Ksha-Treya", Meaning Warriro King. Much of our Ancinet Hindu Epics mention Locatioons that exist not in Modern day India but in Eastern Iran !!! Persian King names like Kurush (Cyrus), Xerxes (Shah-harsha), Cambyssus (Kambusa), Darius (Dhair-yasha) infact are all made up of Sanskrit words we Indians use even today.

[@Dice_roller]

Ancient India and Persia were not the same civilization. Not to mention, Ancient India was not one singular civilization.

[@shravyaamin8346]

Interesting

[@shamanic_nostalgia]

I do think this is representative of some kind of transition on this planet that was wild beyond our imagination, and the facts of this time period have been concealed and supressed on a deep level to completely throw people off what really happened in the past. In other words, I'm not sure this was simply "lost to time" as the time was intentionally lost and buried under a false narrative.

[@charliebuder1980]

This man should be hired to narrate he has great voice and way of telling stories and giving information

[@Crecganford]

Thank you so much.

[@whateverrandomnumber]

Please please make a series about where elves, orcs, dwarves, fairies, trolls, goblins, leprechauns etc came from!! Pleeeeeaaase!

[@Crecganford]

Yes, I am pondering how best to do this, but it is something I want to do at some point.

[@alexfrost5220]

Excellent video, learnt a lot. Thanks!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@karamlevi]

I agree. You can research how to be a voice actor or book reader. Then make a reel and ONLY do works that make sense to your goals both spiritual and finacial. If your happy or in your power place of awareness… any reading will be excellent. Cheers mate. And excellent 🏆suggestion to 🙏comment or above 👆🏼

[@argentandroid5732]

Lately I've begun to wonder if the stories about "giants" may be remnants of oral history about contact with Neanderthals. There are some parallels that could be drawn with the physical appearance of Neanderthals which would certainly generate a perception of otherness, and with the known aspects of their religion which seems to involve worship of the natural world. However I'm afraid there's not much more to go off of other than a hunch.

[@Crecganford]

I have spoken about this in a previous video on Giants about 6 months ago. I can see why some may consider this, but giants are more likely representations of hunter gatherer populations who were physically bigger than the Early European Farmers.

[@fernandogarcia3957]

One of your best videos, very nuanced, and finally we reach to the point where the consideration of repeating motives can be of anthropological nature, and not by influence of other cultures. Growth of plants, for instance is a thing that can be observed by anyone at the time, so mythical explanations arise with a common theme (mytheme). But that's not to say that there were no influences of cultures through time and space, so we have to thread carefully, as I think you're doing now. I'm more skeptical of other considerations like the relation of the Deer Hunter myth and Orion, if I remember correctly. For 30.000 years seems a very long time for even oral transmission. I'm aware that in an environment that doesn't change, socially and naturally, core myths can be transmitted for a long time, but the estimations in other videos seem too long for me. Another thing is the substitution of population in Europe (Corded Ware etc) that the dna data show. Maybe war is not the word, but conflict and killing of the male population of Old Europe ( not all and also the more to the west, the less) in general terms. Thank you for your work, is of huge interest to me.

[@jasonyoung7705]

I have a theory that in the Titanmachy, the Titans were the good guys, the Olympians were the villains. It comes down to the Greek cycle, Earth > Sky > Earth > Sky > Earth. in this, its Gaea > Uranus > Titans > Olympians > Dionysus. The Titans are basically the inheritors of Gaea, and the Olympians are the inheritors of Uranus. Earth gods versus Sky gods. (note that although Dionysus is the child of Zeus, he was born from an infusion of the power of the Titans, so is Olympian, Titan, and Mortal). Anyway, the Titans acted in defense of Gaea, who was being abused and assaulted by Uranus. This battle is continued when Uranus essensially 'becomes' the Olympians. The times of the Titans was the golden age, when the gods lived in peace with humanity, when the Olympians took over, things only ever got worse for people, silver-bronze-iron age. You can also look at what powers the various Titans represented. Hyperion (sun) was east, Krios (ram) South, Iapetos (mortality) west, and Koeus (moon) north. Kronos, Titan of time, was at the center (these correspondences are well known to witches), and so they represent a natural cycle. Now look at the younger Titans, these are mainly war gods, Pallas (springtime campaign) east, Persus (the destroyer/sun) south, Menoetius (defiance) West, Atlas (strength and moon) north, with Astraeus (the stary sky) as the cycle. So we have the older Titans that defend Gaea from Uranus, and then the new younger generation of Titans that join to fight against the Olympians. What if the titans win, it seams obvious to me, that Astraeus is raised up as the new (and better) Uranus, and humanity returns to the golden age. And yes, I missed out 4 of the Titans. Helios, Oceanus, Promethius, and Epimethius. They sided with Olympus against their brothers and mother. Screw those guys, lol.

[@Durakken]

I mentioned in a previous video that I think that the Titanomachy could be or related to the story with Lot and Abram due to Zagrias is mentioned in both. I haven't looked into it much but it's one of those things that strike me as odd to have Zagrias be mentioned in two different pretty important stories and both relate to conflict.

[@ClayWar237]

Glad they lost! But Olympus shall also fall. Prometheus sends his Regards!

[@waynesworldofsci-tech]

Fascinating as always Jon. Thanks for sharing.

[@kevinnorwood8782]

Here's a question I'd love to see you take on one day. One of the main video games I play nowadays is Smite: Battleground Of The Gods. It's a MOBA akin to League Of Legends, but all the playable characters are various Gods/Goddesses/Heroes/Characters from various mythologies from around the world (heroes like Achilles and Hercules are classified as "gods". But as a better example, Arthurian mythology exists in Smite, and its current characters (King Arthur, Merlin, Morgan Le Fay, and Lancelot, as well as possible others in the future) are placed into the "Arthurian Pantheon", implying that they ascended to godhood as a reward for their actions in life). And the game actually has its own in-game lore and storylines, many of which include alliances between these pantheons (ie. All of the pantheons uniting against Cthulhu). But what I'd love to hear from you is, in your mind, if the various pantheons of gods and goddesses knew about each other's existence, what do you think their interactions with each other would be, if ever? Do you think some kind of inter-pantheon alliance could ever actually happen? Like here's an example you could start with: What do you think the likelihood would be of the Celtic, Arthurian, and Norse Pantheons forming an alliance with each other?

[@Crecganford]

There are two answers to this, and I hint at it in the Roman mythology here, that the gods were often considered the same being if they had the same powers. But if we took that away, and just considered how they would interact if they were kept independent of each other, then that would be interesting, and far to complex to answer in a comment… maybe one to ponder if I time in the future.

[@judeel7601]

Cain, a farmer, collected a portion of second-rate produce and offered it up to G‑d, and Abel, a shepherd, brought an offering of his own in the form of a sheep.Abel, too, did not offer his finest.Abel could have brought cattle as an offering, which is more valuable than a sheep

[@josephpercy1558]

1:30 - In my opinion, to translate the name Gullveig as representing "gold and greed" is a very dubious translation ( EDIT: Jon says "wealth" instead of the conventional "gold" translation; not sure why). Nowhere in the sources does it indicate that Gullveig was mistreated because she was greedy for gold. Gold is commonly used as a metaphor for divinity, with rarely any negative associations. I'm making a point of this because it's a faulty foundation for related dubious motifs. So, let's expand on this a bit. I follow Old Norse scholar and native Norwegian, Maria Kvilhaug, in her translation of Gullveig as "Gold Power Drink," and a figure symbolizing Indo-European shamanic initiation. From her book, _The Seed of Yggdrasill_ (ch. 2.13, pp.196-97): _"Gold is the main theme of the Skáldskaparmál, where Snorri lets the god Bragi explain numerous poetical metaphors for "gold." These metaphors subtly serve to indicate a deeper, more sublime meaning of "gold," which in itself is also a poetical metaphor for something deeply mysterious. Gold is what shines and provides light in the "Hall of Aegir" -- that is, in the Cosmic Ocean. One of countless metaphors for gold is in fact the "Light of the Daughters of Aegir" (the waves)._ _Gold is what shines from the hero Sigurðr, as he is finally ready to overcome hatred, greed and fear and wake up to the sleeping valkyrja within, receiving her sacred knowledge about the runes._ _...gold appears to be a metaphor for divine power, divine knowledge, magic, and perhaps spiritual enlightenment. It is much sought after, and sometimes this greed for gold is destructive and leads to unwise actions and death -- but only when it is sought with the wrong intentions._ _In the Edda myths, such negative qualities ("greedy for gold") are always represented by masculine characters such as Reginn, Atli (a malevolent version of Óðinn) and Níðuðr, who all seek the "gold" (the knowledge) in order to enhance their own worldly power and with a hope to attain immortality. They all fail miserably, whereas the worthy owners of "gold," such as Sigurðr, provide wisdom, healing and experience resurrection in death. The "gold" has ultimately to do with resurrection from death and is closely connected with a sacred marriage to the valkyrja._ _The Power Drink is identical to the "precious mead," or "mead of memory" which is served to the god/hero/initiate in all of the initiation poems... In one of the poems, this magical and benevolent drink is also called _*_veigr_*_ -- as in _*_dyrar veigar_*_ ("the precious power-drink"). There is also a chapter on the "Maiden with the Mead," a basic character of the Edda initiation stories who provides this drink to the worthy initiate while he still dwells in the underworld._ _The chronology of Gullveig's story arc is an exact replica of the typical career of any shaman or similar spiritual professional in pagan cultures. She goes through her mortally dangerous trials, survives, and begins to work within her profession, eventually teaching her knowledge. The fact that this leads to a war between the Aesir and the Vanir will be understood better if we realize that the war Óðinn started and then almost lost eventually led to Óðinn learning about seiðr from Freyia."_ [end of excerpt] Thus, I find it unpersuasive that this episode has anything to do with nomad or hunting societies coming into contact with agriculturalist societies. Ancient poems were written as parables, with secret meanings that pointed to the mysteries of the cosmos, of life and death. Not mere reflections of culture and convention.

[@josephpercy1558]

I also want to point out the tenuous notion that the gods can be defined as "gods of ____." A god is not a "god of" anything. Gods are known and defined by their unique personalities, just like humans. Likewise, I (Joseph) am not a "human of hunting" simply because I like to hunt a lot. This is just a ridiculous, worn out, redundant modern theory which bears no reflection on the perceptions of ancient man.

[@scimitarstyle]

To understand the Cain and Abel story it's worth looking at the earlier "Inanna Marries a Farmer" which it's based off of. Near Eastern myths regularly feature a "tree of life" goddess who the various male deities and culture heroes compete for. This story of the farmer marrying the girl and beating out the pastoralists is flipped, for example, in the story of the "Marriage of Martu" which sees an Amorite pastoralist beat out the city dwelling suitors to win the princess. Finally, there is a further layer in Cain and Abel which denotes a bronze age connotation in that "cain" comes from the Semitic word for "blacksmith". "Cain" is also the father of the "Kainites", the family of Jethro whose daughter Tziporah married Moses. Furthermore, some scholars also see a link between Cain and "Canaan" and interpret the latter to be read as "the land of the blacksmiths". This further complicates things as while there is almost certainly some cultural exchange going on between the near east and the eurasian steppe, there are layers and layers to these things with both sides influencing each other and further influence from local events and traditions that are wrapped up into these.

[@gustavoboscardin9351]

Sends husband to the underworld due to relationship issue... Thousands of years later, remains highly relatable 😂

[@Szymek25]

check American Indians beliefs one tribe has rule that woman owns everything and mam needs to take care about rituals and spiritual part it he fails he can be expelled lol so similar idea as here

[@Clifford_Banes]

Conflict is at the core of everyone's culture? Unexpected.

[@vivekgangwar9051]

As far as I know, there are stories which spread among all religion in different forms but are same. Example Noah's Arc story First i heard this story in hindu myth and then i heard Noah's Arc story. I don't know how but i also heard that jeses travelled to India too at some point.......

[@ipos1070]

You should poke around the legend of Shesha.

[@casparbrock7441]

Thankyou Mr. John White for addressing this very interesting subject. From a standpoint of comparative mythology it appears this thesis is most sound. For instance Goddess Venus/Aphrodite and the Lucifer of Lucania appear as Mesopotamian deities Ishtar/Inanna and the Egyptian goddess Hathor all which link with the Nordic Vanadis Freyja and Odhr/Svipdag/Yngvi (a Rydberg thesis). And Freyja is of the Vanir. Though I don't see any evidence of any great legendary war between the Indo-European "Aesir" and the Mesopotamian "Vanir", I do see evidence in Nordic mythology of a lumping together of Mesopotamian and Indo-European gods and culture in the Aesir and Vanir. The Eddic war between the two serves to define their cultural differences and ultimate syncretism as presented by the hostages from either side, as you mentioned. Again, a very fine video lecture, sir. I always look forward to the next and am subscribed to your channel. Good day.

[@algernoncalydon3430]

As with myth overall it's not a story in a particular time, but a story within endless cycles. The Iliad is the greatest example. Has all the elements, the conflict between goddesses, which then turns into a conflict amongst men, the great armies fight without a clear victory, the gods take their sides and fight each other, the great heroes die, the Kings are disgraced or die a miserable death, setting the sage for a new era. Appropriate to the time it was placed, the end of the bronze age civilizations, but applicable to the time prior and the time afterward.

[@kariannecrysler640]

I loved this. A good story is nice, but the insights to the people who told them is my favorite part.✌️💗🤘

[@bostonbilly7725]

I swear I read or saw a vid that said when Marduk went into exhile with sarpania, they went north he became Odin.. I had nvr heard that before heh ❤❤😊😊. Tyvm Jon

[@philjameson292]

Hi Jon, great video as always. I have seen videos about ancient genetics that suggests that Indo European males virtually replaced all of the Neolithic farming males almost all over Europe. The female line remained mainly Neolithic Farming line I can vouch for this from my own DNA analysis It's therefore understandable that the new hybrid society would want to sort of move on from conflict I also suspect that as it was probably the Neolithic Farmers that built the European megalithic structures, but as the male line had been effectively wiped out then the knowledge was lost, hence the later tales of giants etc building these structures

[@jasonbatty5168]

As always great video brother 💚🖤💪

[@Crecganford]

Cheers Jase

[@steveforde7475]

No tea I'm on wine, hope that's OK. Excellent presentation.

[@Crecganford]

That's a fine idea!

[@RexFuturi]

The independent parallel development of similar stories is almost as interesting as an overarching ancient story would have been.

[@shanegooding4839]

The slaying of Abel by Cain always suggested a form of sacrifice to me, with the sacrificer (Cain) having to bear a distinguishing mark and live apart from society. Abel as the shepherd also reminds me of Dumuzid the shepherd god having to die in Inanna's place and therefore also being a kind of sacrifice.

[@anon3336]

I am personally convinced that the mead of poetry story and the Veddic churning story were originally the same. The name Kvasir even means the crusher or the churner.

[@remivreugdenhil2042]

Bedankt

[@Crecganford]

Thank you so much for your support, it is appreciated

[@BrambleWood]

Have you looked at the Gnostic testaments, even they have a god replacement story, just wondered if you ever go beyond Nordic etc, i see so many possible connections between(what little we know) of british druids and Japanese Shinto, be interesting to hear your far more knowledgable views

[@kanyekubrick5391]

One of my favourite KZbinrs

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@fftydgh7769]

Awesome video brother! And here’s a fun fact : when Antiochus IV Epiphanes erected a statue of Zeus in Jerusalem, the Jews called Zeus "Baal Shamen" (lord of heaven) when Zeus was often called "father Zeus" or "the father" and Roman also did this as well with Jupiter. In Albania he was called zojz in other dyeus, and his likeness is very widespread. Also, Dionysus was a demigod that died and was rebirthed into a god. And in the ophiric tales he is especially connected to rebirth, mortality, and the connection between life and death (in connection with the ophiric tale of Zagreus) ….much like a certain someone. Makes you think doesn't it?

[@ammitthedevourerofsouls]

Dionysus was much like Ariadne nothing but debauchery having sex with everyone knowing them or not knowing them basically spreading disease and plagues which is why they end up eternally in the lake of fire for abusing their sacred vessel God loaned us. When you abuse it it's taken away. Zeus is nothing like Dionysus. Those are the lies and rumors Hades the rumor Hera the whore eve the deceiver spread. Eve wasn't first on earth, Lucy was. The bible has been altered by the fallen ones and deceivers. Anyone that altered the book is removed from the book of creation.

[@jandobber316]

Opposing worlds Muspelheim(Muspel 'the world destroyer', he and Surt could be the same) and Niflheim created out of the will of Fimbeltyr in the gaping chasm Ginnungagap made contact in the beginning of times, the sparks flew away and became the stars, comets and planets.

[@niidhogg9090]

The exchange of Freyr/Njörd vs Hoenir/Mimir, makes me think of an exchange of technology: The EEF would have taught wheat agriculture and ?fishing?, while WSH would have given them the technology for war and priesthood.

[@darkmatter345]

Its kinda fascinating how real life events might have influenced how myths were created - kind of historical account before history in storyform.

[@Deepak_Dhakad]

War Between gods in vedic myth was Devas lead by Varuna and Asuras lead by Vritra. Indra was borned from joint earth and sky. Then Indra and his assistant Trita killed the serpent and Devas won.

[@arbitrary_mike7833]

Great work.

[@jakeaurod]

I wonder if the story of Esau and Jacob would reveal that dynamic as well as or better than Cain and Abel. Or could they be both be part of a similar story, but deconstructed into multiple conflicts of a similar type. I also wonder if Ishmael vs Isaac fits into this. Moreover, could the story of Enkidu and Gilgamesh better fit the agricultural conflict in the near east than Enki and Enlil? BTW, the audio sounded deeper, with more bass, on this video and it was more difficult to hear and understand. I had to keep going back to re-listen to sections.

[@kellydalstok8900]

Those stories feel like they have the same story at the base of them. There are more bible stories that are basically the same story with different names and settings. Watch Dragons in Genesis.

[@Szymek25]

we see in Homeric legends how much older stories and motives are alive and reused to tell new stories related to more actual events you used old cultural references as part of your language and way to explain things better while sharing new understandings facts and own important stories we usually forget that nothing is created in void and that middle east wasn't an isolated place

[@Neenerella333]

@@Szymek25 The stories are alive! Wonderful way to show how they flowed out and returned like the people who told them.

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@kellydalstok8900 They aren't the same story repeated, they're a single story that intentionally uses repetition to reinforce themes. The Pentateuch is an epic with a single eponymous protagonist who just happens to be born at the start of book 2. The first book sets up themes that are explored in the latter books. Clearest example is how Noah and Job are both offered escape from a cataclysmic punishment but it goes badly for them and they are sexually humiliated for their own children, while when Moses is given the same offer after the Golden Calf incident he breaks the cycle by refusing the offer. This is easy to understand if you've looked at Jewish teaching methods and sadly obscured by Protestant interpreters.

[@AC-dk4fp]

There's no agricultural conflict between Enkidu and Gilgamesh but there are lots of mesopotamian versions of the Cain and Abel myth. The point of the Cain and Abel myth is to set up the concept of Divine mercy with how Cain takes responsibility for his evil actions and is spared and given a protective charm intended to avoid a cycle of violence. The courtship of Inanna uses the same motif with Dumuzi competing against Enkimdu for the love of the princess but the actual messages being told are completely different.

[@petertyson4022]

That interesting. The 1st thing I thought off was in 1800 Americans with the conflict between sheep farmers and cowboys.. 👍👾

[@mayanksingh3006]

Where are you all my Life 🧬 Thank you for this content

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@aaaabbbb7823]

amazing . it was a,amazing .can you make a video covering ancient iranian gods and their rivalry with dark gods or de dives

[@annwhite6305]

Enki and Enlil sound similar, and may have influenced the Slavic deities Perun (storms, thunder, wind) and Veles (Earth, fertility, etc.)

[@swasg3129]

Nope Vedic is way older than enki and enlil

[@AaronBiswas]

This is basically finnish korean hyperwar.

[@guitartopro]

Did gods play the role of supreme head of state a sort of representation of the group that worshiped them

[@jo0ls_dee]

I love the "God. Bible." reference 😂

[@BitStClair]

The war gods or horse culture vs agriculture culture? The truce is the coming to terms on how to move forward?

[@thegamecrasherthemastergam8485]

You okay Crecganford? You seem sickly. Also, good work as per usual.

[@Crecganford]

I was very tired when I recorded this as I hadn’t been well, but all tip now thank you.

[@thegamecrasherthemastergam8485]

@@Crecganford Good. I'd rather not have my favorite source for Proto-Indo-European myth be down in the dumps physically and/or mentally

[@pressurechangerecord]

I suppose there were three main groups: hunter gatherers, animal farmers and plant farmers. But perhaps also mixtures of all of those… ??

[@Crecganford]

Yes, within the differing cultures we see various weightings of farming types, but their mythology can easily be categorized into those three groups.

[@algernoncalydon3430]

It would be easy for a person in the future to mistakenly ascribe the change in society to the Great Wars, WWI and WWII. They weren't what make the great changes, but one can see how it would be easy to say, these two world wars are responsible for all this, since that was the era in which everything seemed to change. As many historians take the easy route with such things because they are taught in school to look only at certain things only. We can see right now how society can change drastically without war, or revolution, or invasions.

[@darkmatter345]

Churning of the ocean, i see some similarities with kalevala and sampo

[@mver191]

You should look into archaeological DNA. At one point the Y haplogroups (passed from father to son) of native European males in northern and western Europe get almost completely replaced by the Yamnaya (pastoral) Y haplogroups that spread from the proto indo European homeland in the Ukrainian/Russian steps into Europe (they spread all over Asia as well actually), while the X (Mitochondrial, passed from mothers) stays native European female. Meaning that native European males at some point were outbred, likely because most were killed and their women taken. The Aesir gods likely came with the more warlike Indo-European Yamnaya people. Perhaps the captured women brought with them the native European Vanir gods and passed these to their children, ending up in a fusion of the different pantheons of their parents/ancestors. Note that also in Irish legend Ireland was inhabited by people that knew magic before the current day Irish came, just like the Vanir in the Germanic myths. So the native Europeans likely used, as far as the invading indo-Europeans saw, a lot of "magic" in their religions and beliefs. Since the Vanir came with the captured women, the women likely passed this on to their offspring and women became very important religious players in society. Since they were women that passed the Vanir religion, the gods that were most important to women like Freya became the most important ones in the Vanir family. They seemed to be a lot more spiritual than the men and fulfilled important religious (priestesses) among magical roles (seers, witches, vessels etc). This reflects the ancient European stories of women being taken, a huge war, marriage, and fusion. Sometimes between gods/pantheons. Also why in Europe women were much more associated with magic and knowledge/wisdom than in other parts of the world.

[@Crecganford]

Thank you for watching and all of this feedback. I have spoken about much of this in some of my previous videos.

[@javikus]

Прекрасно оформленный ролик с хорошим информационным базисом. Рад, что у него на 1066 просмотров нет ни одного дизлайка. Показатель успеха!

[@kellydalstok8900]

Dislikes aren’t shown anymore on KZbin.

[@javikus]

@@kellydalstok8900 there is a plugin in the google extension that allows you to see the dislikes

[@blakewinter1657]

Talking about the rape of the Sabines, I notice that there is a similar story in the bible, in Judges, I think, where the tribe of Benjamin's men kidnap the daughters of other tribes. I wonder if this is just a parallel story or if there is something common behind them?

[@hugespinner4890]

I'm not sure that relates my understanding about the kidnap of wives for the men of Benjamin relates solely to the literal sexual assault of the "Levine concubine." they wanted to "gang rape" the Levite who handed over his concubine and they left her for dead at his doorway the next day. he then cut her up into 12 pieces and presented her to the 12 tribes saying look what you have done? this started the Bejamite war. the 11 tribes were so angered they said the Bejamites would not be allowed to take wives from within the 11 tribes. the battles against the Bejamites almost decimated the tribe eventually they took compassion and stopped the killing. the Levine's raided the city of Jabesh and took 400 wives for 600 of the remaining men thus allowed them to keep the promise made about not having wives from within the tribes and allowed the remaining men to take women from Shilo probably a bit more to it. i only found this when i was reading into Sodom and Gomorrah. not sure hiw u (edit: how I) even ended up there

[@hildeschaf8891]

Have you ever considered doing a video on the origin of religion? I see that it’s a little bit off your typical topics but in every video I feel like there is the last step missing: Where do those myths and archetypes root. I think of shamanism, altered states of mind, perhaps near death experiences and things like that. For me the most obvious entity is the snake (dragon?) that is alive until today in Amazonian jungle through shamanistic rituals, you mentioned it in context with sub Saharan myths, in Asian stories, Germanic myths, and I believe there are many more to mention. And of course I think there are also way more archetypes wich originate in cerebral function (or maybe sometimes dysfunction).

[@Crecganford]

I do touch on this in some videos, but I can make a dedicated video in this. Leave it with me.

[@DJWESG1]

The common theme is see is about structure and unstructured thinking and being. New farming practises being one of these new strctured ways of thinking and being, comming into direct conflict a more unstructured hunter gather somewhat piratic mentality. Modern interpretations might include structure and agency, or the coflict betwteen urban and rural, and many psychological descriptions of our own internal conflicts of interest and thinking.

[@Impericalevidence]

There's a documentary called "symbols of an alien sky" which describes a possible explanation of ubiquitousness of this theme of war and overthrow. Food for thought if you haven't seen it, now, I'm actually gonna listen to your presentation.

[@Impericalevidence]

Aesir, asura... It correlates...

[@VatoLoco91]

I cannot find the from Marduk to Zeus video. Has it been taken down?

[@Crecganford]

It shouldn't have been, I think it is called "How Near Eastern Mythology influenced the Indo-Europeans".

[@VatoLoco91]

@@Crecganford thank you very much for the response. I was confused, the thumbnail image is not the same and that was the source of my confusion. Thanks for all the work you put into these videos, this is one of my favorite channels on KZbin!

[@shravyaamin8346]

Jon common i expected more from you man....but like a typical westerner you also termed the asuras as devils. The hindu scriptures do not consider the asuras as devils but the devas n asuras were people who were fighting for the position of indra(king of heaven) so that they can rule heaven...it was only that the asuras were more inclined towards doing bad things generally and the devas were more inclined towards doing good things but exceptions were there like prahlad Maharaj and Mahabali...... The tridevs n tridevis are worshipped more as they go beyond this concept of devas-asuras...

[@000bullets]

Where did you get the thumbnail picture from? Can you post a link?

[@gillsejusbates6938]

looks like AI if you look at the left hand of the man on the left side

[@ealaban]

Oh friend, thank you for approaching this subject, and might i say you well related the battle of Magh Tuireadh (Moytura in English...otherwise pronounced Mah Too-ree/ tu-ruh, depending on where you're from)...I deeply appreciate your posts, they're profoundly enjoyable, and your scholarship is remarkable (you aught to be proud, you've obviously put much work and great dedication to these post). What I have to say I mean with no disrespect (it's not your "fault" nobody walked you through how to pronouce Gaelic )... uhm...uh...thank you for trying....but Tuatha de Dannan is pronounced more like Too-a-ha day Dah-nen (and even that's a less than golden guide). The "th" is silent and is only there to seperate the vocables....it's a pet peeve of mine when discussing with other Druidic Scholars (if you're going to study ancient poetry in it's form, at least learn to pronounce it so that you can also enjoy the flow of the verse)...I get that your focus is not on Druidism, and I thank you for even trying, and for giving that beautiful auld legend a chance at fresh life again. I mean no disrespect in correcting, but did feel compelled to point it out... Keep up the good work, you are amongst my favourite KZbin producers. Slàn leat gu Bhard, agus gum bu slàn sinn oirnn e, 's air ar Daoine. Failte a Charaid

[@ealaban]

I'm presently in the midst of setting a Gaelic (middle Irish) copy of the text of that very battle writen down in the 3rd Century (Leabhar Nuachongbalai - The yellow book of Lecan) to an English translation for a book I'm presently working on (ironic that a Druid should write a book, I know lol)

[@mattosborne2935]

Wow. Right off the bat, the emergence of inequality in the Neolithic transition. Only a minute into this and already drawing mental parallels to Ibn Khaldoun and Thomas Hobbes.