A Mythicist Theory you have NOT heard yet

Mike Lawrence:
www.amazon.com...
/ gnosticinformant
Please Consider joining my Patreon to help finding scholars to bring on. Any amount helps me. Thank you existing Patrons.
2nd Channel:
/ @latenitegnosis
Follow me on Twitter:
/ nealsendlak1
Discord:
/ discord
#gnosticinformant #mythicism #christianity

[@CheddarBayBaby]

This is actually a great conversation. This guy is willing to concede points when he’s challenged

[@archiesinclair6252]

Respect to this gentleman for his HONEST efforts.

[@chainedmindsasylum]

Being an educated academic biblical scholar doesn't make you an exemplary thinker. This man deserves to be listened to 💪

[@ashcross]

I agree with this, but unfortunately non-academics talking about translation issues or the etymology of apparently pivotal words, does require a grounding in linguistics or history or an allied domain. Hanging so much on the word 'ancient' really requires much more academic understanding.

[@chainedmindsasylum]

@@ashcross Much respect to scholars who provide us with valuable information 🙏👍

[@WhirledPublishing]

Scholars and PhD's are a pack of lying lunatics - if you think that's harsh, look up the IQ's of geologists, volcanologists, glaciologists, etc. Look up the IQ's of university professors ... You'll find that - with very few exceptions - the IQ"s of Earth Scientists are 85 to 115 which is the intellectual equivalent of school children - if that sounds harsh - remind yourself that most geologists and glaciologists don't graduate from highly-selective universities - most of them graduate from low level institutions with minimal entrance requirements - which includes thousands and thousands of shockingly low level institutions across the usa and canada, across europe, asia, latin america, australia, etc. Read the graduation requirements in their catalogs so you can begin to understand that science degrees are handed out, along with job titles an paychecks, to those that graduate with a C average in Chemistry, Biology, Calculus, etc. If a C average is acceptable to you, if scientific theories from those with the mind of a child are acceptable to you, then you're not very bright. Since Calculus is the lowest adult level math, and since most Earth Scientists can't do Calculus, since most Earth Scientists can't even compose a paragraph - which is why "Science Journalists" are hired - now would be a good time to realize the "science" that is spoon-fed to the public is preposterous nonsense and intentional disinfo - it's an epic psy-op and next to no one notices - not even the "scientists", the PhD's and the Scholars. The fake Biblical Scholars are so detached from reality as to be insane - just like the fake scientists - few conspicuous holes in their claims include their claims that God created Earth nearly 6,000 years ago. Christians and Jews are programmed and indoctrinated to believe that God created Earth nearly 6,000 years ago ... Where do they get that lie? From Bible Scholars? The Bible never says God created Earth nearly 6,000 years ago - the Bible says nothing about 6,000 years - if you think the Bible says that - show me where the Bible says Jesus lived thousands of years ago. They believe Jesus lived thousands of years ago so they add 2,000 years to the timeline - as they shove backward the "ancient world" backward to thousands of years ago - because everyone believes the ancient world existed thousands of years ago - because carbon dating says so. If that is what you believe, you're apparently unaware that numerous reports from archaeologists and other researchers expose carbon dating as a fraud - why use a fraud to prove the timeline for humankind? Are you unfamiliar with the thousands of independent sources - documented in dozens of languages from all across our Earth - that tell us that Alexander the Great and General Ptolemy lived in the 1400's and 1500's? Are you unaware that numerous independent sources tell us that Vesuvius decimated Pompeii in 1631? Are you unaware that Pliny the Elder reportedly died in that horror - and that he reportedly lived contemporaneously with Nero? Are you unaware that old maps going back to the 1300's tell us that many "ancient cities" did not exist until the 1400's, which includes the ancient city of Alexandria in Egypt? How can Cleopatra live thousands of years ago when her city did not exist thousands of years ago? Look at the old maps from the 1300's - you won't see Alexandria on any of those old maps - you also won't find Mecca or Calcutta... on and on and on. Are you unaware that in the 1800's, published documents and books reported that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the apostle Paul were prisoners in the dungeon of Queen Elizabeth? Since disciples and the apostle wrote their "testaments" that were compiled together, translated numerous times and then published for the public in 1611 as the King James Version, why deny the obvious? Since our world is controlled by billionaires that have siphoned 99% of the world wealth into their control while billions of babies and children, and billions of teens and adults are relegate to horrifying poverty - without a decent bed to sleep in, without a decent bathroom, without adequate nutrition, without clean drinking water, without transportation, without healthcare and without dental care, we know the billionaires don't care about us, and yet billions of people grovel at the feet of the "Scholars" and PhD's and "Scientists" that are programmed and indoctrinated by the textbooks printed by the multi-billion dollar publishing houses that are controlled by the billionaires. Why live your life like you're brain dead? Why allow yourself to be dumbed down to the point of having the mind of a gullible child? Why allow yourself to be poisoned by their food and their beverages and their medicines? If you choose to bow down to your evil overlords, that's your business - but don't tell yourself you're intelligent - don't tell yourself you understand the history of our Earth - don't tell yourself you understand the history of humankind - don't tell yourself you understand geology or chemistry or calculus - don't tell yourself you have freedom or equality or democracy - because almost everything you believe to be true is lies and lunacy that's spoon-fed to you by your evil overlords that control your mind and body and emotions.

[@hondacbrification]

@@ashcrossWhat does ancient as word means to a common person is more relevant then a person that has be thought how to read and understand a religious text for which it did get a diploma.

[@ashcross]

@@hondacbrification Why?

[@99skyroxx]

I believe 40 is representing the 40 days in Venus cycle that she disappears to the underworld, in her retrograde. Great talk, ty.

[@tamaragorman7421]

Your guest is thoughtful conversationalist. His approach is encouraging and hopefully many will be inspired to do their own research and critical thinking.

[@magickmagazine7675]

Well done to both of you - congratulations Martin Lawrence - your expressing several points I have discussed in the past - I aplaude your reasoning out side the box !

[@jflaplaylistchannelunoffic3951]

31:30 I think "Nazareth" was included in Mark because John the Baptist was called Nazarene or Nasorean, and that was misunderstood as "being from Nazareth" instead of "somebody who does not shave the hair and eats wild honey".

[@kilianklaiber6367]

Doesn't Nazarene mean helper?

[@MrC-55]

@@kilianklaiber6367 it was a Vow

[@CaseTrick]

Isho the healer (Aramaic), Iesous (Koine Greek), Pati (Sanskrit) is not identified from any clan or tribe in Sepphoris the home of his grandparents (Ioachim and Anna) and their daughter Maria both Inorex or Priest Cast responsible for bringing in the Khristos or Osho. Sepphoris is an ancienne Hellene city known for its vast temples gardens and history pre religious governance.

[@JohnHoulgate]

I've wondered from time to time if the Jesus story predated 30 CE. This Mike Lawrence makes that idea more plausuble.

[@jimbob3030]

The jesus story begins around the day after the old testament tells people a savior is coming and their imaginations start to run wild, somewhere around 600-400BC.

[@Slagnogler667]

Sheds light on the "conflict" between Peter and Paul. Great video.

[@willempasterkamp862]

'' conlict '' between ; Ananias and Zacherias Albinus and Festus Imran and Harun Cephas and Zebedee Judas and Natanael Simon and Andrew Jair and Klopas Seneca and Germanicus Pilate and Cornelius Lucius and Agabus

[@theprinceofdarkness4679]

There was a Yeshu ha Notsri who apparently lived somewhere between 200 and 100 BCE he was a sorcerer who was executed by the Hasmonaeans by first stoning him and then hanging his body on a stake the word in Greek translated as cross in the new testament could also be translated as stake transliterated the Greek word is stauros incidentally his 5 students (disciples, learners) were also executed at the same time This Yeshu who is being called the Notsri might have given the basis for claiming that there was a Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the Nazarene this story is found in the Talmud

[@kdaviswbai]

Great interview. Open mindedness of the back and forth helps foster our own questioning. Plus you have one of the most intelligent comment sections on KZbin. I always learn a bit more from reading them.

[@spankflaps1365]

I went to a Protestant Primary School, and a Catholic Comprehensive School, in England in the 80s. I was always skeptical and wary of the religious woo, especially “high church” crap. I got into trouble for chaining my bike to a (life size black marble) statue of Virgin Mary in the school entrance hall. It was a genuine accident. The hall was badly lit, and I had never looked at their religious installations because Indiana Jones once said “Don’t look at it, keep your eyes shut”. The Nuns went mental, and it became an urban legend at the school.

[@jamesdewane1642]

The only thing better than a nun going mental is a bunch of nuns going mental!

[@jodown5584]

I love that I live at a time when I can go about my every day work while listening to conversations like this. What a time to be alive! Thanks Neal and Mike!

[@JohnDee0]

The statement Richard Carrier made about Mike Lawence being an amateur is an answer to a question I posted myself on his blog about Mike Lawrence's theory (which i found interesting and plausible) related to the birth of Jesus being "settled" 70 years prior to the destruction of the second Jewish temple (in the same vein of Daniel's prophecy and one of the Jewish fetish number i.e. 70)....His answer: He brushed it off, claiming that Mr.Lawrence was just an amateur.... Hummmmm.....no comments....but obviously I don t agree with that kind of attitude...

[@sto59]

Jason Reza Jorjani says Jesus is based on Apollonius of Tyana.

[@PhoenixAurelius-138]

I've not heard Jorjani say that, but I would agree with him. I think IF there was a real Jesus figure, Apollonius is the most obvious choice IMO.

[@renatapawelec8154]

Being well read and highly conversant on the topic of Mythicism, I have heard and seen this man’s perspective expressed numerous times before.

[@DavidCicia]

This helped me to see these matters in a new light, and also mythicism in a new perspective. Finally it reminded me of Tom Harper's mythicist thesis that the Jesus story is a guide to the universal mystical experience of inner transformation.

[@alexlarsen6413]

Oh I totally get his position regarding the UK being theocratic! I'm from Denmark, another country with no separation of church and state, but UK is way worse than even us. Now, regarding his position on this Jesus worshipping group, I have a problem with it straight from the get go. This is why: the fact that the group in Rome is writing about sending envoys to Korinth, who's lives among them had been beyond reproach from youth to old age, does not automatically imply they had been christians or the followers of Christ that entire time. Neither the group nor the people they're sending as envoys. Why would it mean that?? Could they not have simply known these people as having been virtuous their entire lives? In their local community which needn't have been christian for the entire period of these people's lives. They might've been pagans, belonging to some mystery cult, and then converted to Christianity at some later point. I see what he's saying but the conclusion he draws from it does not necessarily follow. This is precisely why it actually is important to be able to read the primary sources in their original language.

[@151prospect151]

I enjoyed this interview style much more than the last one with James Valiant. You challenged his view but it was more of a calm conversation and very enjoyable to listen to. 😊

[@joseliano325]

The fact that early critics of Christians seem to never question the historicity of Jesus should not be surprising. Once the gospel of Mark is written and disseminated, (describing Jesus as if he was a real historical person), every person who then learns about the Christians would have no clue that the story was originally fictional/allegorical. Therefore, critics living hundreds of miles away from Judea, several decades after the claimed events would have no reason to question the reality of the story.

[@Steve-yn3cs]

Damn.... I never. I never thought of it this way. Jesus.

[@roberthesser6402]

I’m a year late but that was the impression I got from the guest, that that’s what he was trying to say. The critics of Christianity don’t really care either way if Jesus was a real person, and they would have no way to determine whether or not he was. I think people who make this counter argument against mythicists are inadvertently projecting a little bit of modern convenience and points of argumentation on to the knowledge of the historians of the time. Historians back then 1) didn’t have ways to very easily independently verify historical facts from hundreds of miles away decades after the fact. Most historians were limited to their local histories, and only occasionally (relative to modern historians) traveled very far beyond their countries. And most importantly, 2) it didn’t matter to them whether or not Jesus was a real human being. Jesus being real or not is a question that only really started to get asked a couple hundred years ago. Most historians, 2000 years ago, wouldn’t really have cared either way whether or not the guy was real. Their concern was over what they believed Christianity to be as a superstition. If you ask them, they would probably say something to the effect of “yeah, it doesn’t matter to me if Jesus was a real guy, what matters to me is that people think that he was the savior of mankind, and are breaking all of our laws because of it.” Historicism or mythicism is a recent debate. It’s not one even critics back then would’ve concerned themselves with.

[@cpnlsn88]

Btw this is a very good interview. The guy has some interesting takes. I may disagree with some aspects but his views are no less reasonable than Carrier's and I find him, ironically, a lot more persuasive. PS He comes across as a likeable guy and ultimately that's far more important.

[@scienceexplains302]

*Naked **-Boy-** Young Man is Homer’s Elpenor repurposed* @1:22:24 Mark 14:51-52 is a part of Mark’s Homerian plot. is an indication that Mark knew he was writing a fictional passage. Sungchan Moon, a Dennis R MacDonald advisee, wrote _“Just as Elpenor appears twice in Homer's Odyssey, once in this world and once in Hades (Od. 10, 11), Mark's young man also appears twice (Mark 14:51-52; 16:1-8), but both times in this world. The difference between the two stories is the implication that, for Homer, death is a definite ending whereby one must reside in the underworld without exception, while for Mark, Jesus's resurrection offers a round-trip ticket. His resurrection transforms the anti-heroic figure of the young man into a resurrected identity. He who used to be the same as Elpenor becomes a different character, like the "glorified dead," through Mark's literary intention.11 Although Mark takes the worst character in Homer's Odyssey, Elpenor, as his literary model, Mark makes the story better. Now we see Mark's literary intention to describe Jesus's supremacy by using the Homeric model Elpenor.”_ P4, last paragraph scholarship.claremont.edu/cgu_etd/112/

[@tedfrancis3961]

Whoa 🤯

[@Bryan-gh6if]

Check out Dr. Ammon Hillman. He has some interesting theories on this passage. He is an expert on the ancient Greek language.

[@scienceexplains302]

@@Bryan-gh6if If he is then he knows he’s saying false things

[@Bryan-gh6if]

@scienceexplains302 the book of Mark was written in Kloine Greek

[@scienceexplains302]

@@Bryan-gh6if Close. Koine Greek.

[@mediocrates3416]

In the book of Esdras, "Jesus" helps rebuild the temple. It's apocryphal so, we don't usually hear that bit.

[@nicksklavos]

I have a translated, my good friend thesis to the Greek mythicists page, and it made a great impact.

[@jacobwilbers9852]

They can't just be trying to make the movement seem older than it is just to gain credibility?

[@aliceputt3133]

The King of England is the Head of the Anglican Church and rules by Divine Right of Kings. That’s what the American Revolution was against and why “We The People…. “ established our government and included Separation of Church and State. Currently the King is restrained by Parliament.

[@irakliskazantzidis1147]

the 'Septuagint' are the [Jewish translators of the Old Testament] The Translation of the Septuagint is the most important of the first translations of the Old Testament and the first, in fact, written translation from Hebrew into the Hellenistic common language. It is symbolized in the Greek bibliography as O' (the number seventy in the alphabetical numbering system, i.e. "by the seventies") and in the English bibliography as LXX (the number seventy in the Latin numbering system, or Septuaginta). According to tradition, 72 Jewish scholars of Alexandria, Egypt began the work of this translation around 280 BC. Later and for the sake of brevity, the number 70 was established, and thus the name 'Translation of the Septuagint' arose. Apparently, this translation was completed in the 3rd century BC. during the reign of Ptolemy II of Philadelphia. The language of the Septuagint was the common Greek spoken in Alexandria, Egypt during the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC.

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

The Nazarene was mistakenly thought to mean from Nazareth. Mark got it wrong. And the place was thought to have existed even though it never did until Helena, mother on Constantine, went looking for it, circa 300CE, and built a church on a random place and declared it Nazareth. Mark makes a couple of Geographical errors.

[@joshua6244]

The leading archeologist in this field has shown that it did exist at the relevant time.

[@onlimi616]

I find his theory to be very plausible. I always thought that Christianity pre-dated 30 CE, but may not have been called Christianity at that time. For example: 1. Paul writing in the 50's mentions the first time they are called "Christians" in Antioch. So what was it called prior to that? 2. How could there be so much Christian infrastructure by Paul's time? All these churches in such diverse places as far away as Rome in just 20 years.Could this have all been achieved by just a few illiterate fishermen?

[@gnosticgnative8931]

@Samantha Jennings. The 'young boy' in mark is allegory / the part of the story that symbolizes the born again 'new man'. Hes wearing swaddling clothing like baby Jesus...because baby Jesus is representing the 'new man' after being born again, too. In Bible stories the old man always represents the first nature. Adam. Esau. Ishmael. The young man always represents the new born again nature. Scripture talks about the end being the beginning.. It's talking about killing the old man (end) so the new creature / new man / born again self can live ( the beginning). So also, when someone dies you wrap them with linen. You know...a mummy. But then when baby Jesus is born, he's got swaddling wraps... It's the same linens you wrap the dead person in at death. Know what I mean? At one point it's a dead person (dead old nature) wrapped in grave clothes. In the next moment it's a born again new baby person ( your new nature) with swaddling wraps. Paul makes sure to point out you're a totally new creature. Same idea as born again.

[@StephenHill-bt5we]

What a brilliant man, a thorough researcher with a great analytical mind!

[@JohnDee0]

I think Mark had Jesus coming from Nazareth from his own wrong interpretation of the Nazorites in the old testament....(which refer to a sect and not some people dwelling in Nazareth)

[@jupitermoongauge4055]

The UK has one of the highest percentages of atheists in the world. I actually believe this may have something to do with the laws that were mentioned. I remember being in primary school in the 70s age 5 to 10, and the church of England vicar who visited every wednesday was considered almost universally by the children as some sort of clown. No one took religion seriously. Let's face is , the church of England doesn't take most aspects of religion seriously either. There was non of the fear mongering of Roman Catholicism or Islam. I have been an atheist all my life and I'm sure one of the foundations for my lack of belief was the the presentation to me of the most benign version of a religion that seemed fairly ludicrous on so many levels.

[@kytoaltoky]

Once you remove the limitations of traditional chronology from the equation, a bevy of interesting possibilities emerge

[@Thewerwolf]

It is not about just reading, Richard is applying a very solid biasian technique to assess the plausibility which solid.

[@jacqueslucas8616]

And please get richard on for his rebuttal!

[@katharinelong5472]

IIRC Dennis MacDonald explains the naked child in Mark as a Homeric allusion.

[@MikePhilbin1966]

40/70 is the exact observation Ralph Ellis was talking about with his Josephus claim... he also claims was was NAZARENE, not from Nazareth. :)

[@irakliskazantzidis1147]

the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 (AD)....The Great Sanhedrin (Great Council), was the highest Jewish legislative and religious council that functioned as a court which was based in Jerusalem, and was the greatest religious authority of Judaism in the entire region of the Land of Israel, especially during the Hellenistic times. This conference was composed of the president who bore the princely title "Nasi" or "Nasi", the great High Priest, the two vice-presidents Ab-Beit-Din and Hammam and 67 other members.

[@grumpylibrarian]

Okay, let's say we thread the needle, and find that sweet spot for 1 Clement to be written between the deaths of Paul / Peter and the Jewish-Roman war to about 65 CE, as you have in this video. You take the "youth" to "old age" a bit more literally than I would, but grant that, too. But your range of 5-45 is not "generous." Put it 15-45, and that's a 30 year gap. 65CE - 30 years = 35 CE. Seems sufficiently in range. You could go older for either end, and get a gap of over 30 years. But we don't have to be aimed at 30CE / 33CE. Those estimates are based off of the twist that John places on the day of crucifixion, assumption of an alternate available start date for passover by some sects, and finding a calendar year during Pontius Pilate that fits these criteria. But outside the gospels, we have no reason to expect that Jesus was crucified at passover. It seems to be a theological point, with no attempt whatsoever to acknowledge the actual event's timing. If Paul's description of the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 11 really is set right before Jesus's betrayal (which I contend is anachronistic translation), then his word for "bread" was for the type that has yeast, which would not have been eaten anytime during passover week. (And Mark et al use the same word, further clue that Mark was writing in riddles, as he acknowledges the feast of unleavened bread.) If we retain Pontius Pilate (and maybe we could toss him too, but I'm being generous) but throw out the passover timing, we have a range of 26-37CE. 65CE - 26CE = 39 years. That's definitely a range where one could go from youth to old age, depending on how self-deprecating one is. (Is 60 old? I sure thought so at 21. At 51, I'm less willing to say that...) I think your timing model is another nail in the coffin for any part of the gospels to be considered historical, but it doesn't put these churches earlier than a real Jesus to whom Paul referred. Just the legendary Jesus to whom Mark et al referred.

[@jessiahstalbirds.j.794]

The anointing of King Charles III is the same as the anointing of any Priest/Bishop of the Church of England. King Charles is, by law, the head of the Church of England.

[@joshua6244]

There is such a thing as the "historic present". This was often used by writers in the ancient world. Eg Julius Caesar used the historic present extensively in his historical accounts. (People use this in modern English: "He says to me..... and I say to him" when talking of the past.) I don't know much about this document, but Mr Lawrence seems to hang the dating of this document on the use of the present tense in one place.

[@JH-ws6lr]

#gnosticinformation isn't doing what a good host should do. He's letting his personal beliefs and theories become facts in his mind, causing his emotion and ego to overcome the neutral and open-mindedness that was intended from the beginning. This man was invited/asked to appear and present his thesis to the world. The host should prepare beforehand, let the guest present his findings, and at the end, then he should ask any questions he or any viewr may have. This turned into another religious debate and both of their doors of opertunity and growth were shut.....keep growing until you're one with the light!

[@JH-ws6lr]

P.s. Not complaining just a little constructive criticism the content did what it was intended to do. Thanks for the knowledge and growth obtained from this whole experience.

[@danielhooke6115]

Interesting. I'd love to hear what counter arguments there might be.

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

Heard it, I have his books.

[@IHS12]

Would you plz direct me to the source of this great wisdom/history you have disclosed?

[@gandolfthorstefn1780]

In Australia 🇦🇺🦘we used to sing God save our gracious Queen before a football or Test Cricket match.🗣️

[@michaeldavis146]

That's not the gracious queen though . Who's name means gazelle or graciousness . Tabitha .

[@michaeldavis146]

I'm assuming you like Charles and the whole British royalty hoopla . The argued about Jacob's pillow stone , the stone of scone , supposedly this stone when a proper king sits on the throne it supposed to convey knowledge light up. , levitate . Yet it didn't really do that . Yet there is tradition by these actual people that it did used to do that . Then it stopped doing that and was stolen ? Sounds to me like it was hidden because pillow stone stopped doing it , oh its missing , the Scots got it . And returned it . The stone isn't levitating , so therefore that's not the king. How is that the king Windsor was changed from happsburg 800 years ago .

[@theemptycross1234]

the "also" in the paragraph after Testimonium Flavianum: if somebody inserted the whole Testimonium, he would want to insert the word "also" to the next passage, to make it flow better.

[@roberthesser6402]

Yeah, that counterpoint was really weird to me. The people who interpolated Josephus weren’t stupid, they were obviously literate individuals who can read the surrounding sentences and work around them. It’d be like arguing a sewed on patch in an old pair of jeans is actually part of the original material because it’s stitched to the material. Like yea no shit, that’s how patching is done. But that doesn’t make it part of the original material.

[@theemptycross1234]

Carrier encouraged Mike Lawrence to get his theories to pass peer-review. I am a scholar (in a different field) and I don't read anything in my field that has not passed peer review. Peer review is a filter to discriminate works that contain proper references, that are well written, that are logical, and that make sense to other people in the same field. It doesn't mean that the theory is true or that the work is very good... but at least the work passed through a quality filter.

[@samanthajennings516]

But yet, Carrier can’t get his peer review done by Oxford or his own ducking school Colombia, but instead needs to do it at some random sketchy place that nobody knows that details of.

[@anthonybutt2453]

@The Empty Cross Peer reviewed = group think. Any truly original research that challenges the current dominant paradigm simply gets dismissed Every new groundbreaking discovery has always been resisted by powerful entrenched interests, because all the historical 'experts' will be shown to have been wrong.

[@theemptycross1234]

@@samanthajennings516 Moving the goal post? 🤔 Oxford is not the only reputable academic publisher in the field. Where did Ehrman published his peer-reviewed book on the historicity of Jesus? Oh, wait! it was not peer reviewed😂

[@theemptycross1234]

@@anthonybutt2453 If that was the case, there wouldn't be 3 recent peer-reviewed books defending mythycism. It might be difficult, but it is the best way to show quality research.

[@simonlealbarria6550]

@@theemptycross1234 It was not peer reviewed, because Ehrman's goal was to popularize ideas in his field that were peer reviewed.

[@nicksklavos]

WE LOVE HIS WORK.

[@PhoenixAurelius-138]

If a Jesus existed, and if these assemblies from Corinth and Rome came well before we're told a physical Jesus died, what "Jesus" (whether a real name or a title) were they worshipping? So many other cults were worshipping resurrected saviors born of a virgin with birthdays near the winter solstice at this time... Are we led to believe that a Jewish version of these cults was created perhaps a little bit before 1st century AD? After all, the dead sea scrolls (which Lawrence did not reference), do mention the Teacher of Righteousness, crucified on a tree in 88 BCE. And I believe I saw another comment on here about the Talmud mentioning a similar character from the first century BCE. However, if the personification of Jesus was based on a real person, my money is on Apollonius of Tyanna, who supposedly died in 97 CE, but of course, his life and teachings could've been woven into the gospel narrative ex post facto. Regardless, it's clear that the time frame we have been given cannot be trusted. At the time of the writing of the gospels and the Epistles of Paul, or any of these other writings, the Anno Domini calendar did not exist, and was not created until the Justinian plague times, what we would now date to 522 AD. Ie. The whole calendar was created 500 years after the event it claimed to start on. So much the easier for the church to change times and dates to for their purposes. This conversation made sense of so much while also creating more questions (for me, at least). I would say I'm more in Mr Lawrence's camp, and I also totally get Neal's position on many points. I enjoyed this guest and this episode very much!

[@juiceytee]

Carrier is so arrogant right enough

[@intelliGENeration]

Did the fox really say the words “the grapes are sour anyway”…?

[@schoolshields9614]

I believe Spartacus is one of many archetypes. c80 bce. He is the prime inspiratiom for the enslaved. Sparta Cruz… Gen. Marcus Crassus crucified 6,000 after the slave uprising was supressed. No doubt the diaspora many fled to Greece and beyond. Sparta Cruz also means the Shining Cross, or the Shining Ones... Also his name is inspired by Spargapises c530 BCE… Son of the legendqry Queen Tomirus who defeated Cyrus the Great. She defeated him legend said with a spear or arrow to the heart. However her rage and anger was spurred from Spargapises and his father making the decision to attempt to make peace with Cyrus the Great and they were betrayed. So its no doubt the legends after 500 years somehow became that he sacrificed himself too.. In addition Sparga Pisces likely also means Spearing Fish and the Age of Pisces which the Chaldean Magi consulted to Gen. Titus Vespasian Flavius on Mt. Hermon when he patronized the Balbek platform to build the larges Roman Temple on the platform. The place where King Gilgamesh saw his visions. The Fallen 200 location from the book of Enoch. The Temple to Jupiter Heliopolus Zues. Jupiter Optimus Maximus... c69 BCE before he began his war campaign at Ar-Megido and down the Cannan and its ultimately finalities of the destruction of Jerusalem holy of holy and Masada. Masada is where the Dead Sea Scrolls where thence taken from and hidden until the 1800's... Balbeck and Jupiter Heliopolis Zues was and still is anciant Romes largest temple ever built. That was the temple rebuilt and the prophecy fullfiled but misunderstood from Revelations.. As Revelations is more a re-hash of the Book of Enoch.. . Its an entire almamegation of linguistics, languages, rituals in practice and song, faiths, belieffs, world events from all corners, legends from 360 degtress of histories and legends. Some more from others, In my opionon. Imagine an atom bursting, then in reverse.

[@whitemountainapache3297]

Nonsense.

[@archiesinclair6252]

Respect to you for the time and effort. Thanks. Not sure I subscribe to your propositions - in particular. But....I actually think there is MORE than a bit of truth in ideas like this IN GENERAL. At least as far as myths actually develop. Thanks again.

[@jacqueslucas8616]

This was a great video! Will be buying the book!

[@jamesdewane1642]

First 2 minutes sound like viewership suppression tactics, so of course I'm hooked.

[@CharFred-vr1ti]

This channel: Carrier makes one speculating claim and you try to destroy him. Jason Jorjani does speculation from top to bottom and he's a good ole boy.

[@cpnlsn88]

Did Christianity exist before it existed? Probably. Most evangelism is to speak to a group, validate their starting point and then deliver a further revelation that builds on the prior belief. Paul may have found a number of different congregations that he then built on. Some of these congregations may have a long prehistory.

[@WhirledPublishing]

@25:20 Paul wrote no stories of the early life of Jesus because Paul became a "Christian" after Jesus had been crucified - Paul tells us when and why he became an apostle while the disciples spent three years with Jesus and knew his relatives - so they had access to more of his life.

[@deathguppie]

The entire argument here is balanced on a single assertion, in a letter from Marcion that reference people who had been associated with the local population for their entire lives. and had always been trustworthy. Justin Martyr went through several belief systems before settling on Christianity. It seems that was common back in the early church. The idea that you could have people who you thought of as always havimg worthy and righteous within your newly formed church isn't an odd thought at all. I'm nit saying he's wrong, just that he needs to do more to show that the church is older that just that statement which I find ambiguous.

[@humblethinker8493]

Watch his mind blown at 59:55 haha! Paul, a century earlier!

[@creative.jon.2024]

OK, this guy has my head spinning in numbers.

[@baarbacoa]

Very interesting proposition. The Bible is riddled with contradictions and conflicting information. Who would have guessed that this would spawn a thriving industry profiting off the study and speculations of them.

[@jamiestewart4087]

I think you often dismiss Christianity as 'just a myth" without recognizing the power of the myth. What's the difference between myth and history? Why is the Christian mythos so successful? How do myth and reality intersect? I'd like to hear you discuss this sometime.

[@annascott3542]

It’s “success” has been largely the result of brutal enforcement, brutal suppression & forbidding alternatives. That was most of its existence, as for today, I wouldn’t characterize an institution in decline as successful.

[@julieellis2076]

I actually agree with this theory. I have read a hell of a lot of stuff too. Joseph's bit about Jesus is out of sync. He was a Jew - he has no interest in the Christian movement. The origional Jesus was mythic and the Catholics wanted it real. I do wonder what the Vatican is hiding.

[@Korva_Avia]

Hi, wow this theory is fascinating

[@terrycihat4136]

The new book Ceasar`s Messiah, says that Joesephus invented him for Flavius and Titus.

[@Nkosi766]

I like your channel but I don’t watch often. You always speaking over your guests, and it sounds horrible. Stop it and let the guests speak.

[@johncaccioppo1142]

It's a fine line that he occasionally crosses but he also tends to do so when making good points. I appreciate the fact that he is knowledgeable enough to debate his guests but I agree he needs to do so a bit more diplomatically.

[@alexxela8956]

This is astonishing. I still don't see why some Greeks would have a Jew as a deity. But who knows, it wouldn't surprise me because of the message

[@exoplanet11]

The hypothesis that a one-time human sacrifice took the place of the temple sacrifices after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE is entirely plausible. I'd love to see Lawrence get a few of his ideas published in peer-reviewed journals, perhaps teaming up with university academics if needed. Peer-reviewed publications will be needed if the wishes to accomplish his goal of secularizing the Brit. education system.

[@sharon_rose724]

What about the Torah saying that no one can die for the sins of another?

[@scienceexplains302]

*Jesus in the Talmud?* The Jerusalem Talmud didn’t exist until at least 200 CE. The Wikipedia article shows that references to Jesus were most likely legend or parodies of the Christian Bible. (See History section)

[@celsus7979]

Isn't Nazareth a mistake, a title taken to be a place? Jesus the Nazarene became Jesus of Nazareth

[@justblazenone]

It seems to be. It didn’t exist in the time of Jesus

[@alexxela8956]

Mark has thousands of people consistently seeking Jesus yet Josephus when describing the religious movements in the Levant area but never mentions Jesus.

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

Another one for the playlist.

[@julieellis2076]

Love the intro music

[@neilgrace9147]

33:28Well timed question mate

[@iwilldi]

31:00 why would Mark include Nazareth? because Cyrene supports the crossbar.

[@mrmaat]

He’s right about the general gist of the 40/70 year esoterica that screams myth making. Whether or not the Clement letter is a smoking gun is a question left to actual textual critics who know the manuscripts and language.

[@mediocrates3416]

There was an outbreak of Greek on Jew violence in around 113 CE; i think that was because the community in Jerusalem went for rebellion instead of the meditative experience. Judas was a zealot: i had a meditative experience that lasted one full week; it made me a bit zealous. Christ is the meditative experience; Barabbas was Ralph Ellis' historic Jesus.

[@Dedlyniteshade]

I really wish people would say England instead of Britain or United Kingdom when there only taking about England and things that dont apply to all of the uk

[@dalelerette206]

I suspect if the Library of Alexandria was not destroyed the history of our world would have been vastly different. The ancient library of Alexandria was destroyed on two different occasions. The original library branch was located at the royal palace at Alexandria, near the harbor. When Julius Caesar intervened in the civil war between Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII, Caesar set fire to the ships in the harbor. It is believed that this fire spread to the library and completely destroyed it. The second branch of the library was located inside a temple dedicated to the god Serapis. In 391 CE, Roman Emperor Theodosius declared Christianity the only legal religion of Rome, and ordered all pagan temples to be destroyed. The temple of Serapis at Alexandria was completely destroyed, and with it the second branch of the library.

[@firesabers]

The destruction of the Library is a bit mythicized itself..... The library fell into disuse and lack of funds. The fire, as legend holds it, didn't really destroy the library. It decayed. When the Muslims took over Alexandria and had a fire that lasted for months of non holy texts.,.. THAT destroyed so much history.

[@freddyray6805]

13:13 views and opinions should be based on evidence. They are not static. If more evidence and discoveries are made, then your views and opinions should change.

[@jflaplaylistchannelunoffic3951]

59:51 That is interesting. Paul wrote his letters much much earlier. Could well be.

[@willempasterkamp862]

Mark was not written because a jewish temple disappeared ; what did the romans care about that ? Mark was written because of the decay and demise of the julio-claudians ( nicolaitans ) . Mark wrote a play about the death of nerones princeps as the christ or chrestos .

[@WatchMaga]

The whole debate ends within 10 minutes of when it starts. The thesis is correct unless you can explain the data from Clement. Our interviewer completely ignores this issue. No alternative explanation for the dating implied by clement? Then this is the ascendant thesis. There’s nothing more to debate. You must deal with the Clement issue. It’s all red herrings until and unless you do.

[@juan_martinez524]

can't wait for angry articles by tim O'Neill and richard carrier.

[@magickmagazine7675]

Thanks

[@jacqueslucas8616]

Josephus’s father would have lived during Jesus’s time so he would have told Josephus all about him if he had existed as described in the gospels!

[@todradmaker4297]

Jesus may not have been well known during his lifetime, however, they certainly would have been aware of the movement and his followers after his death.

[@Trismegistus95]

Thanks for another amazing upload!

[@mediocrates3416]

There was once a consensus that heat was a fluid called phlogyston.

[@mediocrates3416]

You should call your show "Noustic Informant".

[@Ai-he1dp]

45:34 seventy solar years=seventy two lunar years???...13 lunar month's to a year mostly, 70 solar years x 13 = 910 solar years(months)...some say the ancients used months for years, is why some in the old testament are said to be 8 and 9 hundred years old...there are two other versions out there, who knows maybe more?

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

Einstein didn’t have a Phd, he worked in a patent office and yet was perhaps the greatest scientist that ever lived.

[@baarbacoa]

Einstein was awarded a PhD by the University of Zurich in 1905, per Wikipedia and other sources.

[@forgetful3360]

Einstein had a PhD and spent most of his working life at universities.

[@carenkurdjinian5413]

That’s a very interesting observation ….. 🌞

[@prkhstry]

Yahshua a contemporary of Jeremiah. A prophet that would make him a messiah (anointed man)not the Messiah as it was not the end of days. They thought it was as the destruction in 70 looks just like the end of days prophesies. After the destruction there was scrambling to build the story of the man that preached keeping the law of Moses for salvation and that not one stone would be left upon another. They believed that he must have been THE MESSIAH because of the time they were in. They used anything messianic in the OT as they were sure he was the one. The end would be any day or hour. They did not know there would be a third desolation.

[@BarbWiest]

This is interesting.

[@hzoonka4203]

Interesting to say the least!

[@erlinggaratun6726]

'Youth' is more likely 15 than 5 years old. That takes ten years off the age of the Roman church, which would put their start in 40 CE..

[@Val.Kyrie.]

I was thinking around 12/13 myself, so yes.

[@juan_martinez524]

70 children of el, 72 Sanhedrin, 70 writers of the Septuagint,

[@Theslavedrivers]

I'm trying my best with this, but, at the very first reference point (19:20) - Couldn't they have once been un-blamable in their pre-Christian lives ???

[@NOTORIUK]

It is not the un-blameable part that creates the time-span, it is the 'Lives here among us' that does.

[@Theslavedrivers]

@@NOTORIUK The slide shows 'walked among us' - not lived with us. There's a couple of old geezers who have 'walked among us' down my local high street ...

[@irakliskazantzidis1147]

the 42 National Jewish communities of Europe...European Jewish Congress