A Protestant Rediscovery of Symbolism | with Alastair Roberts

[@ewene2656]

Jonathan thank you so much for this video and introducing me to Alastair Roberts. As a Protestant I have gotten so much from your content and videos. I have loved learning more from an Eastern Orthodox perspective. Knowing that Alastair is doing similar things from a Protestant perspective excites me so much!

[@hisdisciple923]

Where can I find ur denomination or any of the thousands of denominations in scripture ?

[@liesexposed8220]

@iOS SANOS or any denomination...exactly...

[@hisdisciple923]

@iOS SANOS they are "ear ticklers" most simpleminded Christians love this type of stuff...just read the comments on "christian" channels...mind blowing how easily tricked and deceived...here's my take on the modern day apostate denominational churchianity aka christianity led by HIRELINGS aka pastors especially tax exempt 501c3 corporations aka churches corporations ...

[@RogerTheil]

I've learned more about Christianity listening to Orthodox sources than I did my whole life in Protestant churches. And apparently I'm not alone.

[@hisdisciple923]

@@RogerTheil both are false religions and teachers and have nothing to do with what scripture teaches

[@dirtpoorrobins]

I really enjoyed this conversation. When disagreements appeared, they didn’t digress into arguments but to clarifications of the two view points. Brilliant done.

[@karlasears9985]

Fantastic talk yes this is what the protestant church needs. It became too dry and shallow this is why a lot of us either left or started to seek out other places. thank you!!!

[@rickw2415]

Two of my favorite people on the Internet! Happy 2020!!! 😱😱😱 I cannot wait to listen to this!

[@TheBibleisArt]

Alistair, I love your explanation of your method as arriving at symbolism through a very precise, disciplined literary/grammatical method. I often that I could show people how many interpretations I throw out.

[@frozennostril]

You two should pow-wow more, more, more!! why can't I get enough of this stuff..? Happy new year errbody!

[@ericzarahn9343]

More discussions with your brother please, Jonathan.

[@charliecopeland9066]

This 1 hour practically kept me at the party i am right now Thank you jonathan!

[@MadFrenzy582]

This was a wonderful conversation btw.

[@ryanalderson7133]

Grew up fundamentalist and by grace passed through the flood waters of deconstruction. So so so thankful for this kind of work

[@thenowchurch6419]

As long as you realize that flood of postmodernism/deconstruction was necessary and had a purpose in heightening our sense of critical thinking.

[@ryanalderson7133]

thenowchurch yes I think for me it was an experience akin to drowning... cf Mt 7:24-27 or Mt 14:30. It opened me up to an appreciation for Christian traditions other than my own. Also Charles Taylor talks about the cross-pressures and fragilization...can relate to that

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@ryanalderson7133 Hey, whatever comes against you but does not kill you, made you stronger.

[@drummerboy737]

Lol saved by deconstruction are we?

[@jarlnicholl1478]

Or have you passed... were you truly washed and reborn if your prior worldview remained... How can you know that you even openly engaged in the first place

[@yeaown8139]

Symbols can only be explained up to a certain point. To fully understand a symbolic structure you have to participate in it and be transformed by it.

[@mythosandlogos]

Wow. Jonathan’s sentiment starting at the 12:40 mark actually explains exactly why I made my podcast. I’m a Christian, but my journey to Christ was actually shaped very strongly by stories from other traditions. It’s believing that the Word, Logos, the Truth behind all the lasting, meaningful stories is made flesh in Christ, is fulfilled in Him, that solidified my faith. So Jonathan is absolutely right that we should have nothing to fear in other stories! That’s why I make my show officially pluralistic (respecting and valuing all traditions.) Because a strong foundation in Truth can only grow stronger with exposure to it in different ways. My hope is that, whether one is a Christian, atheist, Pagan, Muslim, or anything else, listening to stories with echoes of Truth in them can only bring one closer to the Truth.

[@mythosandlogos]

PS Thank you for the introduction to Alastair. I’m subscribing to his podcast now! It’s great to see this community growing.

[@jpmisterioman]

You earned 1 more subscriber, sir. Mashing together Bible symbolism and myths? Count me in.

[@mythosandlogos]

Sociólogo da USP I’m honored! Some (King Arthur) are overtly Christian in theme while others (Orpheus) are diverse in tradition with themes (creating something more beautiful out of death, in that case) harmonious with Christianity. My goal is to help anyone on their journey, whatever it may be, with stories that helped me along mine :)

[@drummerboy737]

Jesus wasn't really a pluralist in his ministry. Respecting others is a commandment but valuing other religious traditions seems less than fruitful. We are commanded to preach the Gospel not take shape and form from every culture and add them to the Gospel

[@mythosandlogos]

​@@drummerboy737 I respect that. There is certainly a careful balance to be made. Early theologians and missionaries had great results Christianizing other traditions (Ireland particularly comes to mind) but Christians do need to be careful not to see Jesus as merely a prophet or teacher, as many other faiths do do. Perhaps it's my personal individualistic views (that everyone has their own personal journey/relationship) combined with some time as a teacher that makes me feel that my job is to provide resources, and allow the viewer/listener to reach their own conclusions. Compared to Jonathan, he more directly links the folk tales he studies to the Logos, where I leave that last step up to the individual, which should hopefully engage with a wider audience. Admittedly this project is more on the side of bringing secular people into a spiritual/metaphysical worldview, rather than going directly to Christ. Thank you, truly, for your comment! I will definitely keep your words in mind when I (myself, not the channel) am talking to friends about Christ as He relates to other traditions, to stress Him as not just harmonious with, but as the fulfillment of what they seek.

[@michaelparsons3007]

My hour long commute is looking bright.

[@DerekJFiedler]

Yes! This conversation is a dream come true. "What if alastair Roberts and Jonathan pageau had a conversation?" Here we go :)

[@drewcoope]

One of the best conversations you've had yet. I was wondering, in fact, if you knew of the book Through New Eyes, Jonathan.

[@jasonaus3551]

He says he has read most of it right in the intro

[@drewcoope]

@@jasonaus3551 I meant that I had been wondering that before I saw the video. The way I phrased my comment is ambiguous, my bad.

[@MoiLiberty]

@@drewcoope I read your comment as you intended. This is an example of interpretation. @Jason Aus interpreted your comment as a question because of the second sentence. Yet, there was no question mark in your comment. Also, "I was wondering" is referring to a past wondering and not a current wonder. Further, interpreting your comment as a question ignores the first sentence where you claim to have watched the video. Not trying to be rude. Just making a point that interpretation of the Bible is something that really does work best if it is turned into symbolic thinking. We might be able to understand where we might be interpreting something that places that interpretation outside the symbolic map of meaning that has been identified based on the overarching meaning. A clue much like hearing a note that does not flow with the melody. We can go back to that part of the melody and examine the musical note.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

woo hoo!

[@afifahhamilton8843]

Thank you! That was extremely valuable.

[@priestxman]

Thank you Johnathan for doing this interview. I came to your channel through following James Jordan and reading through New Eyes. I am happy to see this kind of Convergence going on which hopefully will lead to a Rebirth of Images among protestants to bring them into a fuller understanding of the catholic faith and Our Lady. Every blessing.

[@alisaruddell3484]

Wonderful conversation! Especially loved the part about Mary at the end, and the combination of intuition and rigor when interpreting the Scriptures.

[@psychogat3]

I'm like 1/3 through your brothers book and this stuff makes a lot more sense now. I'm kinda thinking that the ultimate symbol is like a hill or a pyramid type shape. Almost everything starts low then goes up and comes back down again.

[@PresterMike]

Matt definitely the pyramid. The ancients came to that conclusion centuries ago. Funny enough im starting to come to that grounded realization myself lol

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

Didn't creation start high and go low?

[@psychogat3]

@@AllOtherNamesUsed I don't know, I think creation is the hill, it doesn't start high or low it is both at the same time.

[@samuelglenn123]

Thank you both this was very insightful. In particular I found the emphasis on scripture as 'script' in relationship to liturgy particularly helpful.

[@TheBibleisArt]

Alistair, traversing all particulars...Gage nostalgia:)

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

I was just wishing for a dialogue between these two minds!

[@rembeadgc]

We're born with this. It's reflected in everything, every perception and every event. We possess it naturally. It is the spirit of deception, in it's many forms, that distances us from or distorts the ability. Scripture says that man can see the Divine character of God through nature. That scripture wouldn't be true if we didn't have that interpretive ability by design. Prayer, communion, fellowship and scripture... anything that puts us in frequent intimate contact with spiritual truth (washing) rekindles this ability and helps us redirect its application..

[@juicerino]

this was awesome. i'd love to see ya'll tackle a scripture passage together.

[@riairena6469]

:)👼, nice to see the church exchange ideas because they love Christ! I do myself miss the beauty of some symbolic aspects of the church, even as a Protestant we used to have beautiful choirs in white gowns that sang like angels from the balcony, had palms on palm sunday etc., bell tones, but liberalism set in, so I feel much more at home in bible believing evangelical church. But I guess those are things that the evangelical church could enjoy also, especially palms on palm Sunday I really miss that👼

[@gregb3443]

Interesting discussion and analysis on the biblical scriptures. Thank you.

[@BaldurWulf]

Why is there an ad for masterclass.com with Neil deGrasse Tyson and hes going to reteach the scientific method? Isn't it almost 2020? Am I missing something?

[@phillipcoveney2863]

BastardXSword I got the same ad.

[@manfredarcane9130]

Based BLACK SCIENCE MAN, son!

[@PsychoBible]

Same here. Skipping that ad! Sorry, Jonathan!

[@rickw2415]

😂😂😂 I know I was like, “Gimmie a break!”

[@0oDanngaro0]

Got one from Tai Lopez. What the hell, he's still around.

[@dronehomeless]

Jonathan, are you familiar with the work of Michael Heiser? If so, have you discussed it in any of your videos?

[@stephenpaccone8120]

Legend

[@rachelparradelong]

I would love to see a conversation happen between you and Dr Michael Heiser , his famous book is Unseen Realm

[@vaportrails7943]

When it comes to symbolic interpretation, I think the key distinction of intent is between inventing things yourself and adding to the scripture, vs discovering and understanding the full depth of what's already in it. The Word itself holds meaning which even the most learned are only partially able to understand. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear". But it is complete in itself, and seeking to add to it is not legitimate. It could be seen as a fine line, or a hard thing to distinguish, but intent is key. A humble, prayerful search for deeper understanding is something we should all be engaged in.

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

Another thing is the scriptures interpret the scriptures to make the matter known to those who search them out. Rev 13 for instance is using language from the OT that shows the false prophet posing as Elijah will renew the old Sinai covenant, number the regathered tribes in Israel in a census, and restart the temple ministry and sacrifices in defiance of the new covenant marriage ratified in Yeshua's blood. Everyone's looking for a sub-dermal chip not knowing the scriptures.

[@Yallquietendown]

Instead of spending all my time thoughtfully responding to someone’s comment then the person just deleting the whole thread, I could have spent that time eating a slice of toasted pound cake o’erspread with a liberal amount of butter. Thanks for the video Jonathan.

[@NathanicusSmith]

This guy gets it

[@logoimotions]

Alistair has a great review of Mattheiu's book.

[@matthewsheek8306]

As an artist in an evangelical church I find myself frustrated and bemused by the bullet point Christianity of the church I belong to. The mental gymnastics that one has to come up with to sweep the symbolic clean of mystery is exhausting.

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@faithfulandfoolish]

This was such a great discussion. And the questions asked by Jonathan were spot-on and appropriate. As a former Protestant myself; the one question I always want to ask Protestants like Alastair (or James K.A. Smith or ???) who are doing great work to get their traditions to think about and recover important things, is how are you able to ensure or guard against your work simply becoming a fad or "movement" when there is no broader ecclesial/denominational backing? How does Alastair's work, even when implemented broadly in an ideal manifestation over the course of years or decades, transcend the reality of just becoming yet another "preference" or pet project of a particular pastor (or group or "church network")? How does one prevent more splinter groups or fad movements (like "missional" or "emergent" church) when there is no ecclesial backing or mandate?

[@faithfulandfoolish]

@jakey fakie "Why concern yourself with more?" Hmmm. Clearly any practice worth "recovering" or "remembering" on just a family level would be worth "scaling" for lack of a better word, to a broader group. And you’re right; the protestant world has become largely disconnected and atomized, a "whatever works for you" type of faith. Clearly the gentlemen in this video feel these things are important to recover or maintain beyond just an individual preference. I reject the "simpleton" vs. "lofty" paradigm you're creating here.

[@ironmonkey1512]

Imagine a protestant version of Judaism where you strip away the Talmud, the traditions, food clothing etc. and replace it with the study of the Old Testament. It sounds ridiculous because it is.

[@mattlangley7605]

I wonder what Rachel Fulton Brown has to say about that last part about Mary.

[@johnr1485]

Jonathan Pageau Can you do a video to debunk Christ as a sun God, or Christ as being an avatar or borowed from Mytra myth, virgin mary from constellastion Virgo or Isis. It would be bice if you do a video to debunk all the astrotheological theories about the Bible

[@2b-coeur]

ok has Alistair Roberts read Olivier Clément's "Transfiguring Time"? because some of his comments on time are reminding me of Olivier's view {which is life-changing, and the whole book's woven with the liturgical language}

[@rachelparradelong]

As a Protestant all my concerns with Protestantism were touch on in this video and I felt that Your guest really explained the good things about the Protestant movement well. I think at the root their are more similarities than differences between the original roots of the three Christian sects. Thank you for showing this side of the Protestant view point. I think the important thing that the Protestants brought to Christianity was the importance of scripture for the foundation of core beliefs. That it acts as judge and authority over all in the faith. There was a darkness coming from the Catholic Church (a lawlessness) at a point in history when the Protestant movement was a necessary light. But I do think there is a splintering that came later in the Protestant movement that has not helped either.

[@jpmisterioman]

You should watch Jay Dyer video debunking protestantism. Sorry, but there's nothing biblical about protestantism. I actually never got why protestantism is a thing; the killing of symbolism, sacraments, and all the mysteries of religion. I get why papism would be criticized, but this doesn't mean protestantism isn't a heresy.

[@jarlnicholl1478]

Jay Dyer is a Duginist occultist tho..

[@jpmisterioman]

@@jarlnicholl1478 Irrelevant, since his points are spot on; at least when it comes to protestantism.

[@drummerboy737]

Was?

[@drummerboy737]

@@jpmisterioman 😂

[@David_A._Ream]

♥️✝️♥️

[@minorityvoice9253]

And Mary provides her flesh which is the temporal part of the symbolic reality you speak of that connects us to heaven and Christ.

[@jeanetteiglesias4124]

Happy new year 2020,🤗💯👌🥂

[@thenowchurch6419]

Understanding sacred symbolism and correspondences is intimately related to the Apocalypse and the 2nd Coming of Christ. Note John 1verse 51, where Christ describes His Return as a manifestation of Jacob's Ladder from Jacob's dream in Genesis; angels going up and down on Christ ,who is likened to the Ladder to Heaven. That corresponds to the Tree of Life as taught by Qabalists and explains that His return is principally a spiritual event.

[@drummerboy737]

If God is omnipotent isn't he spiritually everywhere anyway? I think it is primarily literal

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@drummerboy737 You are nearly there but miss the point. Because He is omnipotent and omnipresent and always has been, the critical issue is for us humans to be able to access His presence and commune with Him. That is the spiritual Rapture and the 2nd Coming, when most humans are living in Christ 24/7. What fundamental difference would it make, to each individual's soul, for a physical Jesus to show up in the sky and rule in Jerusalem ?

[@paulgrigor2482]

You should drop the adds there taking the mike out of you as you had Neil degrass tyson babbling

[@TheBibleisArt]

Worlds colliding

[@lc-mschristian5717]

I enjoy symbolism and thoroughly enjoyed this video. Thank you. God's peace be with you

[@anselman3156]

It would be very unwise to be overly attached to Gregory of Nyssa, as there are dubious things in his writings which stand to be corrected. No one Church Father should dominate our thinking, as they were capable of individual errors. Rather, we should go for the consensus of the Fathers, while recognizing their individual fallibility.

[@logoimotions]

Jonathan said about Matthieu:"in his first book ". That would get a man thinking about the second book

[@minorityvoice9253]

The FLESH is given to Christ by Mary which is no longer symbolic but unitive.

[@MediaevalGuitar]

James B. Jordan's work helped me go from Protestant to Orthodox. I once wrote and asked him about the practical benefit of his insights. As typical of Protestant, and more specifically Reformed thought, such work, as insightful as it was, seemed to remain on an intellectual level. In Orthodoxy the typology seems to be alive in practice, sacramentally.

[@suppression2142]

Have you read James B Jordans book The liturgy trap? If so what's your opinion on it?

[@MediaevalGuitar]

@@suppression2142 As a matter of fact, I read it even before it was a single volume, back when Jordan first issued it as a series of newsletters. When I read it as a Protestant, I found it persuasive. Of course, now I am Orthodox and disagree with it.

[@suppression2142]

@Mediaeval Guitar would you be willing to make a video or maybe a short summary here on your main points of disagreement? And at the time why were you convinced? And why are you no longer convinced? I'm currently a protestant but want to genuinely also understand orthodoxy. I am at the moment trying to see which makes most sense and why.

[@MediaevalGuitar]

@@suppression2142 Not sure if you saw my initial reply to this (it doesn't appear to be here somehow) but I would just reiterate that accepting Orthodoxy for me was a matter of getting the 'big picture' of a Church that both is equipped to pass along the faith intact from one generation to the next and that has binding authority over the individual believer, as in Acts 15 & 16.

[@anselman3156]

I think that that is an important point by Alastair about Mary standing as the head of the larger reality, the foreground and particular symbol of the Spirit's work. An acknowledgement of some of the implications of this might help in overcoming some Protestant objections to the Catholic identifying the human person of Mary with the work of God in the salvation of Christians, a work which involves the mediation of grace, and the necessary omniscience and omnipotence which belongs to God alone. Prayers to the Blessed Virgin, and indeed to other saints, requesting their intercession, are in fact made to God in the name of Mary or the saint, and it is the omnipresence and omniscience of God which communicates that to them, as He pleases, and involves them in the response. That is, it is objected that a human being, no matter how exalted in heavenly glory, could not hear simultaneously all the prayers made to them, but if the name Mary is given to the greater reality in God in which the human Mary participates, that may give some understanding as to how this works. Just speculating....

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

As with the temple, or the ark, or Mary, it's the Lord who sanctifies the vessel, not the vessel that sanctifies the Lord. We don't pray to the vessel/creation but to the Lord/Creator, in spirit and in truth.

[@anselman3156]

@@AllOtherNamesUsed We are bound by love to have fellowship with His saints, and to ask for their prayers and help, which they do, in His Name, and by His power. God does not call us to individual isolation to fellowship with Him alone. Adam when alone had fellowship with God, but God said it was not good for him to be alone, ie. without spiritual companionship with another human being.

[@anselman3156]

@@AllOtherNamesUsed p.s. The Apostles tell us to give honour to whom honour is due, and the Lord's Mother prophesied that all generations should call her Blessed. I am happy to call her Blessed in speaking to her.

[@lisaonthemargins]

29:54 :D

[@AllOtherNamesUsed]

Another thing is the scriptures interpret the scriptures to make the matter known to those who search them out. Rev 13 for instance, some if the most symbolic language used in the entire canon, is using language from the OT to show that the false prophet posing as Elijah will renew the old Sinai covenant marriage (the beast with the harlot), number the regathered tribes in Israel in a census, and restart the temple ministry and sacrifices in Jerusalem in defiance of the new covenant marriage (the Lamb with the Virgin bride) ratified in Yeshua's blood. Everyone's looking for a sub-dermal chip not knowing the scriptures.

[@RichardRohlin]

Fascinating discussion. Here's how to understand the Mary thing, and what I think Allistair is missing: Christianity is not a series of propositions, it's a pattern of relationships. You can't have a relationship with an idea.

[@paulgrigor2482]

Do topological things matter to symbolism, if so, why so much, could it be transcendental?

[@mark621000]

" come out of her my people." The intellect cannot save the soul. Yahushua the Mashiack is the only saviour of repentant sinful humanity. The Vatican Jesus is a counterfeit.

[@j.harris83]

I would love to see these two, Paul VanderKlay and Dr Jordan B. Cooper have a conversation over these same issues.

[@iddqd2]

1 minute upon upload and suddenly there's a down vote. Part of me would like to know why do this to Pageau?

[@Spacefarer12]

Bots

[@bradwentworth1842]

Bots and Prots 😁

[@JordonHill]

Thank you, amazing to see so much common ground on Mariology.

[@anselman3156]

With regard to the Mother of God, it is to be regretted that Eastern Orthodox (I think following Chrysostom) along with many Protestants and modernist Roman Catholics, misrepresent her as misunderstanding or doubting the Lord Jesus, and as being reproved by Him. They do this, for example, in their interpretation of the wedding at Cana scene, or His words about His mother and brothers when she was seeking out Jesus during his public preaching. There is misinterpretation resulting in her being viewed as having faults, whereas the western Catholic traditional understanding is that she had none, having been preserved from sin from the instant of her conception.

[@juicerino]

!!

[@seekeroftruth4251]

Interesting point made around 13-14 minutes in about how christ takes up all the stories and brings them to their complete resolution. Can you go the distance though? Can you see how the christ is also the nachash, the satan? Much the same as was when Yosef, the righteous one, tempted his brothers?

[@ttsnews8035]

So when Jesus was tempted by Satan, it was really Jesus tempting Jesus? 🤔

[@seekeroftruth4251]

@@ttsnews8035 Perplexing, huh? Another interesting fact, nacash and moshiach have the same gematria of 358

[@ttsnews8035]

I was thinking it more 'illogical' - and unscriptural. Oh yes i know all about that chance oddity with gematria, unfortunately numerical gematria is never used or endorsed in the scriptures and was only later picked up by the rabbis from Babylonian theology and is used extensively in Kabbalah texts and freemasonry (a Gentile front for zionism/judaism). Even using Hebrew letters for numbers was picked up from outside influences and was never biblical. Ironically, the text in Revelation where gematria is typically used to interpret 666 is also where Babylonian theology is warned against. Sadly, applying gematria has actually concealed rather than revealed the matter.

[@jarlnicholl1478]

It tells us that we cannot apply our binary categories to the absolute... whether one sees them as historically conditioned or as necessary for phenomenal experience, their limitation must be nevertheless acknowledged..

[@seekeroftruth4251]

@@ttsnews8035 Well, I guess you didn't actually listen to the inteview, where within it they speak of mary miriam and the jerusalem above and the church all being the same thing in the symbolic sense? When you can see that, maybe you will see the righteous one is also the tempter, testing our love of The One True God, Yeshua's Father in Heaven.

[@sealevelbear]

I don’t need the reformation. I have the Church.

[@PresterMike]

RookerRoo343P agreed

[@minorityvoice9253]

Marrying those 2 sides is difficult because of the question of authority. It always come to authority. God, Jesus, His Church then the individual within his life.

[@jimmyaskenstrom324]

I'm 20 minutes in and i haven't heard any specific example, everything is generalisation.

[@Xanaseb]

Better wait longer, then. They do come

[@paulgrigor2482]

You can talk to God in the mind or say it out loud if it's easier for you, sometimes we don't sound like you would imagine it's like talking with your tongue in your mouth. Plz mind your P's & Q's it's important you keep your rapporteur with the father, so say Heavenly Father I have somthing to say, then hello with whatever you have to say, remember to listen after speaking, you may find this hard but this may be were you Realize the father is always listening & trying to repair anything that may be slightly wrong with you so don't itch your tickles leave them alone then you'll feel God pinch it to fix it. It's what he's best at, all you need to do is keep still (best to lay down on your side, check with the father to know which side down) if your litterel with the father there's more to be had so you can help with the events coming. Plz help God Bless All.

[@Aquaticphilosophia]

The Protestant view of scripture and the church seems really incoherent. Being in a group started in protest to Catholics, and is named after that protest, seems to be an unavoidably bad symbolic foundation to study or understand symbolism from.

[@MadFrenzy582]

13:30 recently I've been wanting to read a specific christian scholarly text that argues that Christ might have been completely made up. What you've just said has just made me want to get my hands on it.

[@leetane312]

Really, how can a text be `Christian` text & yet a text that negates Christ`s existence?

[@mostlydead3261]

Interesting what passes for 'Christian' in liberal protestant circles.

[@MadFrenzy582]

@@leetane312 "The Historical Jesus: Five Views"

[@manfredarcane9130]

"Christian text"... contributors include Robert M. Price. OK boomerstant.

[@truantj]

"Trying to think symbolically" is not how I would describe the work of the Theopolis folks, but rather co-opting symbolism for diabolical purposes, albeit unwittingly (so there is still hope for them yet.)

[@GameFunHQ]

Diabolical purpose? Substantiate please

[@thenowchurch6419]

Jonathan you sounded quite superstitious and Roman Catholic on the Mary topic. I would go with Alastair on that one.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@Nestorian Calvin By a scriptural standard. No where are we shown that we are to pray to Mary from this world to the Heavenly.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@Nestorian Calvin You have not demonstrated that my scriptural standard is subjective. Scripture indicates that there is a place that saints go at death. It does not say that it is up in the sky. LOL! That is your subjective suggestion.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@Nestorian Calvin I am not Protestant and have nothing but pity for them and their chaotic state. That is a separate issue from whether Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy have gone too far in Mary veneration. I do not support Sola Scriptura but scripture is a good reference point. I thought we would have a spirited discussion. Be well.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@Nestorian Calvin I am a Christian RasTafari and agree with much of the Oriental Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox church doctrines. My perspective is nuanced. I do not object to Mary veneration per se. I am questioning praying to her. I have a ton of critique against Islam, so no, I am not Muslim.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@Nestorian Calvin I did not say that Oriental or Ethiopian Orthodox objected to asking intercession from Mary. I was hoping you had a defense of it, from scripture, to start with. I will continue to speak directly to The Lord of the Universe, Iyesus Kristos. Grace and Peace.

[@Toroidalzpe]

blehhh, protestantism is reliant on the idea that we can interpret the texts however we desire, for him to say that there is coherent symbolism is to say that which his faith believes as subjective is objective, refuting his own worldview...

[@Toroidalzpe]

@@asdf1991asdf Theres no real interesting answer to this, that is merely a tenant of protestantism, they don't have much of an argument for it either.

[@minorityvoice9253]

You ask if the protestants have done more work in understanding the TRUTHS of the meaning of the temple of Jesus Christ being both here on earth and in heaven, is like asking someone have you rediscovered or what work has been done to rediscover the scientific method. It's already known and true.

[@mostlydead3261]

Ridiculous.

[@minorityvoice9253]

dead probably not the best analogy, I admit.