A ramble on RWS, Numerology, Cartomancy, and sundry other things

[@Boi-st5px]

Ben/Tom, I love how your videos feel like you're actually having a conversation with your audience. At times, I had to catch myself from talking back at you (the screen) when I wanted to agree or interject my opinion during your discourse. lol As for the answer to the argument or discussion of whether the original drawing or creation of the tarot was just for the purpose of a game or if it had a deeper, esoteric or occult meaning attached to it, I think the truth is in the middle? I thought about you, who's a writer, artist, playwright and how I'm sure you create works that may seem fictional or solely for entertainment, but, to someone else, it has a deeper purpose or meaning, beyond it's original intent. As such, I'm not sure if George Orwell's intention for writing the novel 1984, was just entertainment or if his intention was some kind of prophesy, but, a lot of people see the relevance and connection to their current world and see his book as something much more profound than a work of fiction. My point is that art and creation, comes from a higher realm, that we tap into, without knowing what we are tapping into. It is in-spiration channeled. The original artist or creator of the tarot, may or may not have known the depths, details and esoteric symbology of the images, may have intended it to be a game, but it doesn't mean that the images do not have a deeper spiritual or occult significance. I'm not trying to argue a point for or against whether it does or not, but from my personal experience, before I read any esoteric books or knew of any other interpretation or alternative use of tarot, I had mystical experiences, revelations and insights about the cards, outside of traditional use and meaning. The revelations and insights to my surprise, I found were in agreement and alignment with the writings and interpretation of the French occultist. So, in my opinion, it MAY have started as a game, but it's possible that it was inspired from a higher realm for the awakening of initiates of the occult at that time in history. Just my humble opinion and insights. P.S.- I agree that learning to read pips and the Marseille has freed me from the restricted images in other decks.

[@thefoolsjournal]

Awe, this is great! Thanks for the thoughtful response. I love that you start conversing with the screen. That's fantastic. I think you're right, the truth probably is in the middle. I do have a weird over-reaction to the overly esoteric writers, because I feel like they've done a lot of damage "inventing" things that didn't need to be there--but, on the other hand--they also gave us the tarot we know and love today, so it's not all bad. And of course people are always looking and symbols and interpreting them--from tarot cards to road signs, so it makes total sense.

[@bwhitedpencilbox889]

I would love to see you go through the numbers in a quick way, I like how consistently you make the systems you use. I think that is something special you bring to tarot as lots of tarot readers tend to be less analytical in the way the assess cards and its a refreshing perspective

[@thefoolsjournal]

I could do that. Actually, I made the video intending to do that, and things went their own way and I followed. It turned into a weirder video than I meant it to! 🤣

[@JamesHimmCoach33]

I see you got the book! Cool! :-) I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on your process. Listening to you, I realized that I started my own journey with Tarot with a pip deck, and what I did was create meanings by combining the suit and the number of the card. Then I moved to RWS, creating meaning through connecting to the visual imagery. This year, as a result of getting back into playing cards, I've found myself going back to reading the cards how I started many moons ago. Almost seems full circle. As visual as I am, I really resonate with your thought on not being "trapped" by the imagery on a card. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to reflect on that.

[@thefoolsjournal]

I did! Thanks for the recommendation!!

[@ConnieIsMijnNaam]

Hi Tom. I am currently reading your book and it makes me very happy. Have a good year!

[@thefoolsjournal]

Awe, yay!! That makes me super happy!! And happy new year to you!!

[@consciousnessrazor]

I know I'm late to the party, but this video 100% resonated with me! This is very much where I seem to be in my tarot journey-- moving toward pips and getting into Marseilles because I love reading by number and element, and RWS often doesn't work well with that way of reading. I appreciated your explanation on cartomantic meanings, as it made RWS make more sense and filled in some holes for me. And thank you for the note about the astrological associations being labored. They make very little sense to me, and when I was being taught to make the associations, it made me feel like such an inadequate reader because I just didn't see it. I SO appreciate this video! Now I'm heading to Amazon to add your book to my cart... ❤

[@thefoolsjournal]

I'm so glad this resonated with you! That means a lot.

[@craymonmaples7364]

You have the Regina Russell book! That was what I used for years. That is the book that taught me to blend cards, so that when I started using Lenormand and Kipper, it was second nature. You have a great taste in cards and books.

[@3ofcupseclectictarotdaniel796]

I know this is an old video It's a great Video to learn with I find myself straddling the fence with pip decks and broadening my rws reading it's unfortunate that I can't nail down numerology definitions as I get past 5 i flounder baby steps i can't know it all instantly in too old. Practice and study will get me there. With every deck in look at in learn more

[@liminal_lark]

Loving these videos of yours TomBen. It would take me all day to comment on all the thought-provoking comments you made. I will say though, I have never fully connected with the RWS 6 Cups. I much prefer the Mythic Tarot for a visual that pertains to nostalgia and reflection (to name just two). Thank goodness there is more than one option when it comes to tarot 'systems', I say. We have the freedom to choose the deck/method/tone that works best for us. We can oscillate between RWS and Marseille (as an example) and/or embrace them both simultaneously. That's what makes the tarot world go round. :) Happy New Year!! I look forward to your next video.

[@thefoolsjournal]

Happy New Year!! And yes. The more the merrier, I say!!

[@tamsaragrey9043]

Your explanations make a lot of sense! I'm not quite there yet with the RWS because I'm still relatively new, but I've been aquiring several Marseille decks (Eros, Pole Ka, La Corte dei Tarocchi, Oswald Wirth, Marshmallow Marseille is next), BUT I can see myself coming to that conclusion at some point. Your book is also on the list for when I'm actually ready to learn how to read these Marseille decks. Love your videos and how your brain works!

[@thefoolsjournal]

Thanks for that! That really means a lot to me. I hope the book is helpful when you take the plunge!

[@MsLaBajo]

I love your lectures! I learn so much from them. Thank you!

[@AdamNlifeform23]

Ended up watching this after I came over to watch your video about court cards (as per our brief chat on Kelly's live video a few weeks ago). We seem to have struggled with some of the same things in regards to the suits and how they are presented in the RWS tradition

[@thefoolsjournal]

YES! I really like the RWS...but when I look at it in terms of the view I've developed, it just quite fit.

[@ivydelarose6763]

Thank you for sharing this video! I love your touch on all Cartomancy matters. I just wonder if you're able to do a thorough review of the 'Card Reader's Handbook' please? It's always on my wish-list.. but the book is so pricey if being shipped overseas. I just don't know if it's really worth the money. I would greatly appreciate if you could help. Thank you Tom :)

[@thefoolsjournal]

Ahh! my pleasure, and thank you for watching! I'll do my best to review the book -- to be honest, I haven't finished reading it yet. When it comes to books, I'm easily distracted. 🤣 It was recommended to be highly by James Himm Mitchell, whose channel I really like--and who definitely knows what he's talking about--if that helps.

[@MyLifeAndTarot]

Yet another great and insightful peek into your way of taroting :) Listening to your thoughts is like sitting down with you and having a conversation where I find myself replying to you in my mind lol. Can't explain it better, sorry. I too have come from pips and playing cards into RWS and thus my way of seeing the RWS imagery is different from the so called standards.. I've created my own views and nothing is yet set in stone. Enjoyed the time spent with you here, as always. Take care Ben! And have a beautiful end of this year!

[@thefoolsjournal]

Thank you!! A beautiful end of the year to you, too!! And thanks for the comment--I know exactly what you mean. And I love that you can see the cards differently. I think when people manage to transcend or extrapolate on the image, it's really beautiful!! Happy New Year!

[@elena.5509]

Another of your wonderful and educational videos. I love listening to you. And now I‘m finally getting your book. 😉

[@thefoolsjournal]

Yay!!! I hope you love the book! And thanks for your kind words. That means a lot to me.

[@RoopaDudleyPaintings]

I wish you would have went on with Number 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 with your critique on RWS. The Tarot deck that I am in the process of creating is trying to address exactly those things that you have talked about here. For me FOUR of Coins for example is "Saving For The Rainy Day" not a miser. The Astrological association of it being "Jupiter in Capricorn" in other words the planet of Expansion in the sign of Ambition. A penny saved is a penny gained type thing. Instead of spending foolishly, conserving your resources to have that financial stability. You are absolutely right about the TWO of Wands - "Mars in Aries" with Number two association. The Lord is in its own sign is as powerful as the High Priestess. The image that pops in my mind is that of a Gladiator where the will meets the passion. Where High Priestess shows her Power through Sacred Knowledge, here the man should be showing his Power through Focus & Creativity (Like that scene in Gladiator where under the General's leadership, the better equipped team was defeated in the most brutal way) Not quite depicted that way in RWS.

[@thefoolsjournal]

This is so interesting to me! I’ve only just begun dipping my toes in the vast oceans of astrology, so it’s totally fascinating to me to hear these associations. I mean, they’ve been available to me, but I haven’t ever engaged with them. As I’m learning, I’m finding some really interesting relationships. It’s amazing!!

[@LittleBlueDuchess]

Great video! You hit the nail on the head. I don't work with anything but the RWS system, but I've started to feel limited by some of the RWS images, particularly the heavy Christian symbolism (The Lovers... yuck) and the largely negative connotations in certain suits. I'd love to move past the RWS, but I'm so familiar with the symbolism and tradition that I don't know if I have the impetus to do so. The rebellious side of me wants to ignore certain imagery in the RWS decks, while still continuing to use the decks themselves. I guess what I'm saying is that you've put words to what has been emerging in my own mind, whilst giving me lots more to mull over. I appreciate it.

[@thefoolsjournal]

Ah, thanks for this. I'm glad I was able to articulate it for you. (I don't think I quite articulated myself all that well, so that's a good thing!! 🤣). I talk a bit in my book about how we don't have to leave one system behind to learn another, or explore another, so I think you definitely if you want to can explore new things without giving up entirely on RWS.

[@LittleBlueDuchess]

Thanks! I've been looking at your book on Amazon and I might have to buy a copy. Do you think it's okay to use with RWS decks, or is it generally just for Marseille?

[@DogsRGr8]

YES! You have mirrored my feelings about interpreting the minor arcana and how limiting the images are in the Waite-Smith clone decks. They are great as a starting point or a stepping stone to deeper interpretation. Each card has light and shadow, multiple layers of possibilities. Where are the cards demonstrating the value of communication, wisdom, and enlightenment? These need to be included in the swords/air/spades. Thanks, I thought I was a voice in the wilderness LOL. New subscriber here, I’ll definitely have to pick up your book.

[@thefoolsjournal]

Ah, thanks!! Yes, the light and shadow aspect--I didn't even get into that as much as I intended to, but that's very true. Every card has both, and that's another thing that's so important to me. If you do get the book, I hope you like it! :-)

[@tarotnola]

Haven't heard this conversation much amongst card readers but these topics drive me insane at times. I adore the RWS system and I've tried to use it over the past 30 years. But.... the numerology just doesn't add up! It drives me crazy whenever I try using the RWS cards! I always end up going back with the TdM. he RWS cards focus on just 1 possibility of the cards. For me, the TdM is actually much simpler, consistent, and much more intuitive with readings.

[@tarotnola]

I've found the only way I can really use the RWS deck is if I make sure to look at the number 1st, and only then allow myself to look at the picture.

[@pugninja7037]

Omg I can really relate, I'm more logical.. not so visual.. I've struggled with images and personally like the marseille better, pips are more freeing.

[@chriszavarella3670]

Where did you get your copy of the Card Reader's Handbook (by Regina Russell) ???

[@thefoolsjournal]

It’s been a minute, but I think it was Amazon.

[@lilpinkbear]

Interesting what you said about original card readers most likely being women before the occultists came along. I deliberately call the RWS tarot the Smith-Waite in order to reclaim Pixie's contribution to the deck. I really enjoyed your explanation of numerology and elements and how they do and do not gel in the Smith-Waite system. Thank you for such a thought provoking video.

[@thefoolsjournal]

Yes! It’s like doctors. Women did all the healing, then men came along and organized healthcare, and women started dying of puerperal fever in childbirth. Well. It’s not exactly the same, but...

[@lilpinkbear]

YES! I learned that in the herbalism course I recently took. Women's knowledge and healing authority taken away from them. Now we're reclaiming it.

[@jamiemorris3526]

Oh, I think this might be my FAVORITE VIDEO OF YOURS! LOL ...

[@AngeloNasios]

The swords, wands and cups blend between each other cause these three elements can arise from one another. They overlap because of the elemental nature of water air and fire.

[@WinterWitchTarot]

Tom, I concur with you also that astrological associations are useless in the tarot.

[@GGeorgeSII]

great video. i feel like im the only that does see the elemental associating in the suit of wands. speaking in terms of the images and not the definition given in books

[@thefoolsjournal]

Thanks!! I think it's great that you can see them. I'm always interested in hearing what people see when they look at the cards--particular with such a fascinating deck as the RWS!

[@idaguerra2228]

BRILLIANT !!!!!!!! SIMPLY BRILLIANT !

[@thefoolsjournal]

❤️❤️ Thank you!!

[@LS-ng1sf]

Two of wands, making the connection, where does one settle next

[@tarotexplorer9865]

I have a bone to pick with you Mr Benjamin. I'm not liking that illustrated decks are imposing their meanings on me any longer. I'm becoming a pip freak - and it's ALL YOUR FAULT! :D For which I thank you from the bottom of my soles...

[@thefoolsjournal]

😂😂 I’m going to end up on a hit list! 🤣🤣

[@tarotexplorer9865]

:D a happy hit list I think

[@captainnolan5062]

Hi Tom. To me, ignoring the pictures in a tarot deck and reading them as if the pictures are not there is really missing the point. John Ballantrae talks about “art in tarot” and that the images are there to trigger your imagination. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp-xmqxnrrNlkJo. It sounds like your brilliant tarot reader friend does this magnificently. I believe that one thing that we have to guard against is learning “the meaning” of a card, and then merely reciting that meaning by rote when the card comes up, rather than engaging afresh with the image (and really looking at it with new eyes). Otherwise, you might as well use blank cards with words on them, rather than tarot card images. I am glad you found your way back to the pip decks, because they do allow you the freedom to have the cards become any kind of deck you want (you don’t have images that you are trying to “explain away” because they don’t show what you want them to show....though I would argue that there is value in struggling to discover the meaning of cards that don’t make sense to you at first glance). I love the RWS deck, and find that it does contain all aspects of life that are needed to cover the broad range of human experience. (Note: By leaving out the court cards in your discussion, the swords were made to appear to be more “unbalanced” than they actually are). The great thing for all of us is that we have access to both kinds of decks (as well as the Thoth style decks) so we can each use the type of deck that we need to use (and that speaks to us) at different moments in our lives.

[@thefoolsjournal]

It’s good that you’ve found a system that works for you.

[@captainnolan5062]

Thank you. Also, you have mentioned that you don’t use reversals with scenic decks (like the RWS). If you use reversals, and adopt an “opposite meaning,” then, for example the 9 of swords can mean “worry or anxiety” when upright, and “optimism or confident thoughts” when reversed. This approach might add the more positive aspects of thought into the suit of swords that you find missing in the RWS using only upright meanings.

[@captainnolan5062]

I just watched a Katey Flowers video that talks about the swords as air and the cups as water that you might find interesting (and how the swords are “heady” and the cups are “hearty).” m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIaue2OFl76Fgdk

[@thefoolsjournal]

Thanks! Like I said I’ve done a lot of work with the RWS over the years and really dug deep into exploring different methods of using it. It’s just not the path I’m on, right now. I’ve found that by stepping away from its symbolism, I’ve started doing readings that are closer to what I view as useful. Everyone’s got their path and their systems, and that’s why this community is to exciting! Like I always say, this is just my view and my path. Who knows? I’m a work in progress, like everyone else.

[@More13Feen]

I love your videos! I realy finde them very informative and nice to listen too, but i noticed that you say Ummm a lot! And since I have it is distracting me 😅 maby you can get aware of it?

[@thefoolsjournal]

Yeah, this is just one of those things for some people. Sometimes our minds move faster than our mouths. I appreciate your comments. It's just one of this human things that prevent us from being perfect.

[@More13Feen]

Tom Benjamin I love the imperfections 🤗 I wach all your videos, by now I am used to it and actualy like the way you talk so much! I hope you dident get me the wrong way 😉