A Surprisingly Passionate Defense of Twilight | Big Joel

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This video is about TWILIGHT. EDWARD. BELLA. ALL THAT STUFF
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[@BigJoel]

Hey hope you liked the video!! Maybe one day I'll take a close look at the books and see how they work into these ideas, cause I had so much fun with the movies.. Anyhow thanks for watching, and if you enjoyed it, consider giving me a few bucks on patreon. I'd appreciate it! www.patreon.com/bigjoel

[@SergeantAradir]

Honestly? I read the books and that stuff is a big part of it. For example there is a part where Jacob is so conflicted between his love for Bella and its very clearly not working that he drives into a town to find a girl on which he will imprint :D

[@bionicpotato]

Big Joel Have you seen Park Chan-wook’s “Thirst” (2009)? I feel like a lot of the themes which you highlight here are also expressed in this film.

[@charlieguy6872]

the books aren't terrible tbf

[@nicanornunez9787]

I don't get why ppl like that movie

[@theinternet1424]

I love you Big Joel because you are the living embodiment of the old Unpopular Opinion Puffin meme.

[@aashnachowdhury8618]

One element that didn’t translate from the books is Bella's dysfunctional family, and how she was the one taking care of them instead of them taking care of her. The loss of control she faces since coming to Forks is a change from always being the adult one even though she was actually a child. Edward, in a way, made her feel like a kid for the first time in life.

[@AM-kr1pc]

Omg that’s so true! Hahaha he was always acting like he knew best too 💀

[@amby8719]

it’s also kind of sad.

[@ImKr15t3n]

That is a damn good observation. Because let's face it, a lot of women are tired of always having to be the one who is responsible in their relationship. I know most my friends feel that way frequently.

[@BabyGirlTiny]

What loss of control? She went there willingly. That was in her control and everything after.

[@natalie9796]

I've just started the new book that is basically POV Edward and I find amusing the fact that it was actually her choice to move to Forks (and she even doesn't like this town, she did it because wanted her mom to be with her new husband). Therefore, she definitely wasn't as passive and bland as people describe her. At least in the books (honestly I watched movies years ago so I don't remember how this was resolved there)

[@liv97497]

You forgot the best part of the movie, though. The soundtrack is fucking great, it still holds up like a decade later. Every single song is a banger. So good.

[@laurenstone5504]

I know right! They had everything from Bon Iver, Muse, to Radiohead.

[@Moonstreamfeline]

the soundtrack was AMAZING especially the opening to breaking dawn part 2 with great visuals. very culty/mood

[@AstraeaFae]

That’s what I always say! Every soundtrack is a1 haha

[@crm1301]

RIGHT? On the first movie ALONE, we got Flightless Bird, American Mouth, Decode, Supermassive Black Hole, Spotlight, and Eyes on Fire. a BANGER

[@rae1467]

i was HOPING i'd find this comment here

[@anaisgomez9681]

Looking back, especially at the books, I think the whole point and the reason why teen girls liked it (including me) was that Bella was a plain, boring girl, but she still didn't quite like being the damsel in distress. She didn't like to be the center of attention, she didn't quite like being rescued. She was indeed annoyed by most of Edward's attempts at "taking care of her" against her own will. But, being a human, she was actually a fragile being, so Edward and the Cullens were... right... ugh. And when she meets the family it gets worse, everyone is always on top of her, "protecting her", telling her that she should decide this, she should do that. She doesn't want to be a vampire just because, she wants to be a vampire so she can be treated as an equal. When she gets to be one, she rejoices in the ability to be able to do whatever the hell she wants, no parental supervision. Becoming a vampire is sort of like becoming an adult, but with added layers for being a woman. Imagine not having to have your boyfriend or family at your side at all times so you're not an easy target for every evil in the world, imagine being able to walk alone on the streets, travel alone, even defend your boyfriend/male loved ones from such evils rather then having them defend you every time. I could relate to that a lot. Being a vampire sounded pretty cool.

[@cookiesnbubbles]

That is a really insightful take

[@Narnianchick]

Great observation!

[@hinasakukimi]

i feel like this is veering on "not like other girls" territory tbh. a lot of authors throw in their female characters being 'badass' and 'not needing to be saved' or even getting *annoyed* at being saved when it... really doesn't fit. like... if you're a human in a world of vampires, it makes total sense to feel vulnerable and want help. it is not 'unfeminist' to want to be helped or looked after sometimes. i think her becoming a vampire should've been a much more difficult decision tbh. the fact that she was able to write off her father and loved ones so easily just so she could become a vampire is.... weird. it would make more sense if her father was more overtly controlling, or she came from a broken home, was bullied etc. instead it comes off as oddly sociopathic. i do agree that seeing bella being equally as powerful as edward (if not more) was pretty cool though. it undercuts a lot of the conservatism in meyer's books, whether she intended it to or not.

[@Phoenix-zy1cx]

I really appreciate how you put this into words. My feelings exactly. :)

[@testosteronic]

@@hinasakukimi you can both know you're vulnerable and be frustrated by people trying to look after you. I don't think your points are entirely relevant to what OP is saying, OP is pointing out the parallels between Bella's feelings in the book and real life feelings of a lot of teenage girls, she's not saying they are the same or that what happened to Bella or the way she acted was totally realistic or likely. A lot of girls are well aware that they are vulnerable in society, and are frustrated with that too. The idea that you could become something that other people are scared of, instead of being scared of other people, is going to be very appealing to a group of people who are constantly told they are too vulnerable to do xyz and shouldn't be going out anywhere alone. So seeing Bella become a scary vampire, and equal to the people around her, is vicariously enjoyable, and the story in general can be an outlet for all those feelings

[@NekoSushi1]

You missed the part where the werewolves are created because it’s genetically triggered by vampires being around; something they never had a choice in.

[@Crochetems]

NekoSushi1 YES FINALLY THANK YOU

[@hypnosjune]

This is true. But also there is a story of how Jacob’s tribe came to possess this gene of changing into a wolf. I can’t remember exactly what the story is but the wolf is a totem to them. It’s a part of their cultural heritage and something this specific tribe is proud of. So yes, even thought each individual didn’t choose to change into a wolf, one of jacob’s ancestors chose it and the tribe respects that. But yes... technically, the wolves don’t have much autonomy.

[@flyaway3374]

But by the time the wolves can phase, the threat was gone. (Cullens in New Moon). It was a slow process. So it was definitely useless.

[@carla-mariahovenielsen2291]

In the book Edward finds out that they are not werewolfs but shapeshifters.. I gues they forgot to mention that in the movies. 🤔

[@StarryEyed0590]

@@flyaway3374 I think the thing was that the Cullens had done such a good job staying away from the Quileutes that it was triggering very few of the wolves. But when there is an uptick in other vampire activity in Book One and Two, *that* starts triggering a lot more wolves, to the point where they become a subculture noticeable to non-wolf tribe members.

[@lilshifty4758]

Bella, one of your unfertilized eggs speaks to me. - Jacob

[@deidrafriesen8531]

STAHHPPPP

[@jlrinc1420]

and When you give birth can I have it?

[@jaschabull2365]

@@jlrinc1420 Bella: You picked the wrong egg, buddy, but I guess you can have it now. *hands Jake a full tampon* Edward: *tries to hold back drool*

[@morbidmusing]

Jascha Bull underrated comment

[@mlj3347]

Right? What are the chances the right egg is the one that is ovulated? Amazing.

[@teadragon73]

Incredibly here for this newfound and widespread defense of Twilight

[@MrNiallisme]

Many people are saying this

[@ValiantDustOfficial]

Me too! I was a big fan of it in middle school. I'm an adult woman now and I understand why so many people have critiqued it, I have many of the same critiques now. But I still have this nostalgic fondness for the series and it's a comfort to see that there are other people that see some value in it

[@queengoblin]

@@ValiantDustOfficial same. It's not well written, but it brought a lot of young women and girls together in a way I had never seen or experienced at the time.

[@mattiethemongoose3rd]

Me too. I loved the Twilight films and books and totally did the mother and daughter Twilight thing. When the last film came out we went to see the special full set showing in the cinema and I never felt bad or silly about it once. I well remember some of my friends getting all upset by the sexist messaging etc, (and defending some of it, I always felt Bella's level of agency and power was underestimated), but still watching it anyway, but I never was so bothered by it I couldn't enjoy it for what it was. It's nice to see it begin rehabilitated to an extent.

[@WereScrib]

As someone who wasn't really the target demographic. (I was a couple years too old, which was enough) I always wondered what the hate was. No 'pop culture' vampire was a 'traditional vampire'. Sure it had some weird stuff in it, but it was kinda exciting. Heck, my greatest criticism is how absolutely hilarious it was to hear a desert dwelling lady describe my homeland. And the only thing I truly hated about it was how lame Forks became when it was Twilight Tourist Trap Land. The films have some odd direction. Some dubious color correction at times. (Come on I know WA's grey and gloomy but we're not THAT gloomy. Most of the year.) And the book wasn't well written, but that's not a crime. Young adult aimed movies tend to be dubious at best and YA fiction is rarely stunning in quality. But it was never terrible. Maybe it was my love of exploitation movies speaking. And truly bad or exploitative books. When you've read Ass Goblins of Auschwitz, you don't exactly think Twilight is stunningly bad. At least Twilight wasn't claiming to be 'art.'

[@mukullataroy2195]

"twilight has certain problematic elements that promote unhealthy or toxic ideas" and "twilight is so hated because it's predominantly teenage girls who read/watch it" are opinions that can and should co-exist

[@TheFourthWinchester]

Like almost every franchise ever to be aimed at teen guys with even worse messaging?

[@shadenox8164]

@@TheFourthWinchester Did any of them use an existing Native American tribe as a set piece?

[@lentlemenproductions770]

@@shadenox8164 probably.

[@maeybee4354]

People definitely don't police series/movies made for teenage boys watch as much

[@fairleylloyd5164]

This!

[@uwu-nr9mh]

“still a better love story than twilight” the most lazy joke of the 2010’s

[@shkoober]

Adriana Ortega Ikr, Im guilty of making the joke back in the day, and I love twilight 😂

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Was it joke? Thats a question you should probably ask yourself.

[@Uhohlisa]

@@fightingmedialounge519 Yes. It was. And it was lazy.

[@cocolime6496]

i mean tbf that was before 50 shades came out which basically said "hold my beer"

[@wolfferoni]

Every now and then I still hear that line and really can't help but roll my eyes. It's been over 10 years. Come on.

[@Primalintent]

"But I don't think that Italian man is being entirely fair."

[@Primalintent]

On the actual subject, I definitely agree that there is a sense of powerlessness as a theme and that one can be happy even when free of agency, but I don't think it is at odds with the anti-feminist, anti-sex, Mormon propaganda aspects, I think it's informed by them. I can safely say now that the extent of backlash for Twilight was due to their popularity more so than their content, and that people tend to be much harder on what girls/women enjoy over what men do (look at how awful people are about 50 Shades where they frame it as "mommy porn" as if that is inherently a negative). However, I do also think that Twilight might be something close to a kind of "accept your master" narrative that makes it all the more frightening. Even applying a death of the author approach, it makes me feel that the themes of finding happiness without freedom comes from a place of genuinely being trapped, whether as an angsty teenager or a Mormon mother, and just trying to make the best of it instead of railing against it to find something better. It definitely feels more like fantasy than it does like a manifesto, the idea of "I am not happy with having no freedom but in the right context I could be and part of me wishes I was there", much like how people treat flagrant violence in a video game. You don't actually want that to be your life, but its fun to explore. That being said, just as you have said already, it is a genuine criticism to point out that these themes could be harmful, I just think people did so with such venom and hatred in them at how much it reflected on themselves that it became ridiculous. I know I did with that mindset back then. Great video, Joel.

[@nailahhuq1238]

@@Primalintent +

[@Black_pearl_adrift]

Idk why but I want a future where twilight becomes classic literature just to turn us all in our graves

[@madeleinesherer7615]

bowser after the umpteenth time Mario kicks his ass

[@TheMorganVEVO]

Maso Trumoi Great commentary! And I agree 100%. I like how people are having a much greater understanding of all this in retrospect.

[@scorpiocusp]

I've told a lot of people who wouldn't believe me that the first Twilight movie is genuinely amazing while still being boring as hell. There was something about that moodiness and grimness of that movie that really, really captured how it felt to be a teenage girl living in a small town who couldn't relate to her peers. It gets it, man.

[@no_peace]

Yeah i had a hard time sitting through it

[@funkyfranx]

I never liked the films, but one time I got drunk with a friend while watching them and the alcohol + nostalgia made for an enjoyable viewing

[@apet6752]

yeah as a teen i really resonated with the "lack of personality" (as people say) Bella has. I never really felt like i'm anything special, and i got kinda upset when people would complain about her being so plain and boring.. I felt plain and seeing that represented in a movie series as a teen made me feel a little better about myself. I also really like the way they portrayed depression in New Moon i really felt that!

[@yli386]

The scenery in the movies was something I really like

[@allybelly]

Yeah exactly!

[@Eilowyn]

It's 2019 and we can unironically like Twilight.

[@vin8754]

I can't tell if this is the best or worst timeline

[@mermaidreviews4693]

lol I always liked it but I’m a girl and nerd lol

[@firetarrasque4667]

Still can't unironically like Fifty Shades though. That one is just romanticized abuse.

[@JuFated]

@@firetarrasque4667 For all of Meyer's shenanigans at least she doesnt threaten fanfic writers and harangue the studio when the director is trying to make her movie better, like EL James 8I.

[@enyafeckenham5730]

Are y'all missing the racism in twilight???

[@jaimeerindy4573]

I never once, for even a SECOND believed Bella would ever go with Jacob over Edward. Her loyalty never wavered and so many people overlook that

[@abiade9614]

....I feel the need to point out she asked Jacob to kiss her. And he did.

[@jaimeerindy4573]

@@abiade9614 Only because Edward wasn't there. It was a contrived plot point when the even bigger plot point was that she was OBSESSED with Edward to the point of being willing to die several times over for him after knowing him for like, 2 months max. The core of Twilight is really "Edward and Bella would go to the ends of the earth for each other", and anything else was just faux tension.

[@TheChillimouse]

if you read the whole books carefully she never was romantically interested in Jacob at all. She saw him as her best friend nothing more. When Edward left in new moon eventually she decided you know if I can't be happy at least my best friend gets to be happy. But even then when Jacob got close she did not accept that. the only reason Bella kissed Jacob is that she did not want her friend to die. it was a shit move from Jacob.

[@RandomPerson-gt1jt]

Same here. I always thought the Jacob vs. Edward dichotomy people present is so silly, since in the books it’s clear from day 1 she likes Edward. There is a brief stint when Edward leaves where it seems like Jacob might be her rebound but it’s very short and almost written in a detached way. The whole series she goes on about Edward’s chiseled face and shows basically no interest in Jacob, Jacob basically just exists as an annoying obstacle. I’m not sure why everyone goes with the whole Edward versus Jacob narrative, maybe Bella’s clear preference wasn’t shown well enough in the movies, or maybe seeing Jacob’s glistening abs and Edward’s weirdly ghoulish face made the fans more passionate in arguing for Jacob as a valid candidate.

[@hinasakukimi]

@@RandomPerson-gt1jt i think also bella and jacob's scenes together were genuinely sweet even if they were just friends -- bella feeling happiness for the first time after hanging out with him just made people feel a certain type of way. that combined with the childhood friends trope, i can see why people grew more attached to their relationship. there was more of a solid basis. that being said, it is pretty clear meyer never intended them to get together, but i think she wrote them a little too convincingly without intending to and had to reel it back.

[@UshioKiss]

The color palette of the movies is always something I think is pretty cool.

[@no_peace]

It was filmed on my beat so i was obligated to see it and go I KNOW WHERE THAT IS but i have always enjoyed horny vampire media anyway so

[@werosification]

omg yes! and how it changes with every movie to fit the story

[@evecates2232]

Fight club has the same color palette and it's also a better cooler movie. You're welcome.

[@werosification]

@@evecates2232 does anyone watch movies because they like a certain colour pallette? also, everyone knows fight club

[@evecates2232]

@@werosification yeez didn't mean to offend your love for twilight

[@crimson1194]

People defending things tenage girls, like i was once, were being shamed for? Im so here for it

[@no_peace]

I wish this would ever happen, like, contemporaneously

[@reaganb6173]

yea fr not to explicitly say these things are just cause of misogyny but i am implying it

[@purplepolarbear5052]

same

[@corbinbarron8772]

@@reaganb6173 Girl what the fuck? Does every fucking thing have to be some patriarchal disaster to you? Have you never heard people laugh at dumb shows meant for boys like power rangers or teenage mutant ninja turtles? Maybe people make fun of this weird show about a girl thirsting for monsters, not because it’s for women, but because it’s about thirsting for monsters

[@_kirb_]

@@corbinbarron8772 Right, so, you're whining on a video about Twilight being about liking monsters even though the video vindicates this concept? You talk about "making fun" but this is a straw man; people have ceaselessly brought up the searing *hatred* for Twilight and the war on the people that liked it. You didn't give a fork bc, well, to you you just laughed it off and didn't care about the hate. It doesn't *have* to do with hating girls, but how much mobilization there was of it compared to other things which goes back to the appeal. I dare you to go find an equal hatred for TMT or the kids that liked it...you aren't gonna find it.

[@Muggins1046]

I think one of the things people overlook about twilight in favour of branding it anti feminist is the fact that Bella is keenly aware of how creepy and controlling and unequal her relationship with Edward is. She hates it, and she wants to change that it becoming a vampire to level the playing field. The best part of the series is when Bella becomes a vampire and all that patronising overprotective bullshit in their relationship is tossed aside. She’s more interesting and together as a vampire than she ever was as a human

[@ieatgremlins]

I haven’t read all the books, only New Moon which didn’t connect with me, but still ... doesn’t she get to choose to become a vampire, to have a child and ultimately to fiercely protect her family? Her journey towards self determination seems pretty feminist to me.

[@pinknfluffypillows]

Really tho! 100% agree

[@amby8719]

Carla MSM yesss i totally agree.

[@BabyGirlTiny]

Lmfao, the fact that the only way bella could be even with them is if she became a vampire is anti feminist. So she couldn't do it as a human? Doesnt that say more about how bella perceived strength? It's the same as people thinking that a strong female character can only fight and nothing more

[@amby8719]

AJ uh no. she chose to be a vampire and have a child and she fiercely protected her family without fighting. that isn’t anti feminist when she chose all her decisions.

[@ptheorist4670]

I had a love/hate relationship with Twilight in my teens, read books 1, 2 and 4 and saw films 1, 3, 4 and 5 and tragically, one of the things I've noticed now, with the Twilight Rennaisance as fans call it, is that something very prominent in the story is female wish fulfilment. Like, Meyer had this fantasy and wrote it, but because it was a woman writing a female protagonist and it became so famous, people came at her and nitpicked every negative aspect of her and the story (and I'm not denying there's a lot of those). The tragic thing is that male wish fulfilment is so prominent in Western media, that we don't criticize it so much. There are stories about male wish fulfilment that no-one gives a damn about analyzing all the negative and toxic messages they may give, yet so many people dedicated hours of their lives analyzing Twilight's negative messages. Sexism plays a big role, internalized misogyny is a thing, no you can't change my mind.

[@mr.icecream7880]

lillpon this is a great comment

[@no_peace]

Feminists do But no one cares so did it ever happen

[@katiebayliss9887]

It’s like Jennifer’s body was seen as a teenage boy fantasy because Megan Fox is it it, when it was really a movie about female empowerment and female bodily autonomy and what happens when guys Think they’re entitled to it

[@Pr0fessorScience]

John Wick and Die Hard are unironically considered great movies. 'Nuff said.

[@ImKr15t3n]

@@Pr0fessorScience hell yes, thank you very much could not agree more.

[@onearmedbandit84]

I'm going to go right ahead and say it, Big Joel is the most huggable KZbinr on the platform.

[@tuuudes3449]

I think there's some stiff competition from Matt of Thought Slime for that title

[@onearmedbandit84]

@@tuuudes3449 Matt doesn't have Henry's bush baby eyes.

[@chaosvii]

The true horror is that you could not help but declare this 🎃

[@Nickman826]

Big Joel is a human sweater

[@FrecklesHasAQuestionMark]

he looks like a human beanie baby

[@teraphIl1000]

Team Edward? Over. Team Jacob? Cancelled. There's only Team Joel from now on.

[@sweetpeabee4983]

We should make tshirts and signs and camp outside some midnight premieres.

[@katekursive1370]

Team Bella should have dated Alice

[@ghostratsarah]

hey Joel make merch "Team Joel"

[@transmatized]

Philippe Parle Peu jacob forced himself on bella despite her telling him multiple times she didn’t see him that way and he fell in love with a literal fetus so... yeah, team edward

[@ghostratsarah]

@@transmatized Have you ever had a teenage boy fall for you? Jacob is an angle compared to what I went through in highschool. And he's dog, dogs do that, he isn't a pedophile. He didn't try to fuck the baby, or even have sexual fantasies about her. Not that I really care, I'm team Alice.

[@kaykay8100]

"But I don't think that Italian man is being entirely fair" @ the volturi

[@user-rf7ml5kj2j]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ underated comment ☝️

[@no_peace]

Haha

[@natalie9796]

@@user-rf7ml5kj2j could you explain, please?

[@user-rf7ml5kj2j]

nat alie I cant even remember tbh...

[@lulucanpy3513]

It's interesting to think about how Stephanie Meyer's Mormonism impacts the themes Joel identified.

[@leonamay8776]

I haven't watched the video yet. But I I mean, twilight is basically Mormon fanfiction. Families are forever, Edward and Bella getting "sealed" for their eternal life, eternal life due to sacrifice (risking death via pregnancy) and purity... And Bella's housewife-y behaviour and abstinence from alcohol, coffee etc. There's probably some stuff I missed. 😅

[@leonamay8776]

And Edward is also super mormoney. The whole "agency" over his urges etc...

[@joelman1989]

I think that is interesting actually. Hadn’t even considered that and I’m Mormon lol. But (not that I get that vibe from you) also want to throw the point out that not everything Mormons do is because they are Mormon. It happens to me a lot like I’ll be at a work party and I’m like “yeah I’m headed home” and coworker who see me as “that Mormon kid” will be like “aaaah because alcohol” and I’ll be like “noooo because introvert” lol. When you know a major part about someone’s life I think it’s easy to contextualize everything they do using that information and tends to lead to reductionistic thinking I think but I fully acknowledge this is coming from personal current frustration and not your comment at all which is actually interesting and totally valid considering these themes.

[@JC-yy8iv]

The Bronx Boglehead that’s a great point. One could question where her personal moral value end and Mormonism begins. It’s hard not to see the whole “This teenage boy is a beast with a deep urge to consume this girl but he must control his dangerous urges until they can be married” as being affected by her Mormonism, but at the same time lots of people have those regressive views about sexuality who are not Mormon.

[@leonamay8776]

@@joelman1989 that is a really good point, yes. It's also possible that the author didn't consciously choose some of the things we consider to be "mormone-y". Certain things may seem obviously "LDS-ish" to me but might have simply been chosen as positive character traits by Meyer (because she thinks of them as positive without consciously relating them to Mormonism). We're all consciously and subconsciously influenced by our own believes and Meyers obviously isn't an exception... 🤷‍♀️

[@saraloe4702]

I've had this theory for a while that Bella isn't somewhat lacking in character to make her a blank canvas for readers/watchers to project themselves onto (or at least that's not what is appealing about her) but rather that she is comforting to inhabit for while. She knows so certainly what she wants and being a teenage girl is a very confusing and contradictory time, there are so many messages coming at you about who and what you should be, how you should act etc not to mention all the hormonal/emotional peaks and troughs. When I read the books I never put myself in Bella's place, I was Bella and being so so sure about things was pretty darn relaxing and reassuring.

[@tirone7520]

Ohhh! I dont remember how i felt when i read the books, it was very long ago, but i get what youre saying.

[@tabithabishop6535]

Yes!

[@geckgeck8616]

"rather she is comforting to inhibit" -> Did you mean inhabit? I really hope you didn't mean inhibit. Anyways, I don't quite get your point. The comfort you derived from taking on and wearing the confidence of Bella is the very point of a blank canvas character. Don't we project ourselves onto blank heroes to feel their confidence and learn some of their drive, their greatness? Besides inhabiting a blank character and projecting onto a blank character is an identical act. The only difference between the two acts, I suppose, is that projection carries a negative connotation. And perhaps by using the term "inhabit" you reconcile the positive effect Bella has had on you with the negative biases attached to projection. Am I missing some nuance here?

[@saraloe4702]

@@geckgeck8616 Yes, inhabit. Edited thanks. As for the rest, it was always my understanding that the appeal of a blank slate character was that the lack defining characteristics means that the consumer (for want of a better term) can more easily project their own personality onto them. So, in this case, I've heard it argued that people put themselves in Bella's position but as themselves, like for me; what would it be like to be me, Sarah, and have Edward Cullen be madly in love with me. But I never read/watched it that way. I don't actually believe in soul mates or everlasting love or even marriage really and I never have, not for me personally. I'm changeable and contradictory, and while ultimately I'm happy with that and wouldn't choose to have Bella's beliefs and wants, I enjoyed the escapism of living in the head of a rather 2 dimensional, determined, single-goal oriented character. It wasn't a case of really learning anything from her, just going with the flow of her simplicity and certainty was a nice break from being in my own messy head.

[@LeanneLukacs]

I don't think anyone can say for sure what Bella was intended to be except a pretty obvious self-insert for Meyer, but everything you said definitely makes sense to me. Bella might not be a likable character, and certainly not a role model, but on closer inspection, there really is something significant about seeing a teen girl be so confident about her choices and what she wants out of life. Probably her one halfway redeeming quality is that she knows what she wants and is determined to get it.

[@sweetpeabee4983]

I love this so much! When I was growing up, every time I got into a book series, my dad would snatch it up and read until he'd caught up to me so he could nerd out about it with me. We went through all the major YA franchises of the time together -- Harry Potter, Twilight, Hunger Games -- and an embarrassing amount of chick lit tbh. But looking back, it was a very special thing, honestly, that my dad was just as into the Twilight franchise as I was. More so, even -- when I got into the typical teenager phase of saying "hey wait...this is problematic, so since it would be weird to like it now, I guess I hate it actually" about Twilight, it was my dad who continued to loudly proclaim himself Team Edward, insist on buying the Blurays (they came with a free Twilight bedspread if you bought the special edition!), and force me to come down and watch them on movie nights. He freaking cried at Bella and Edward's wedding, I'm not even joking. Makes me doubt that teenage girls were the true target audience! :) Anyway, it makes me happier than I can express to see you talk about some of the redeeming qualities of this series. Thank u big joel, you are as ever the joeliest

[@oof-wi7hp]

i love this comment!!!!!!! your dad sounds lovely. for him to be so enthusiastic about your interests- genuinely cool.

[@satan9487]

your dad is LOVELY.

[@TheMaru666]

It is not weird , my stern and socially acquard father waa the one who silently cried in emotional moments in films . Who says that men cant get emotional or love romance movies ?

[@sweetdee8884]

I love your dad

[@katobytes]

what an interesting dad lol

[@femke6313]

Bella has always been selfless. She cared for her very "into the moment" mother who was acting like a careless teenage girl before she met her 2nd husband. And Bella is content in that situation. She looks upon herself as very mature for her age and likes to prove this in being very strong in her decision making. Her mom didn't want to leave bella behind and opted to stay but Bella made the choice to move to her dad, who she barely knows or even likes to allow her mom to enjoy every bit of happiness. Bella pre-forks gives the message that being selfless will have a positive affect later in life. Bella sees her dad living on take out in a cold house that is only used to sleep and watch tv. she changes that to make it into a home and sees all the pictures of her mom still hanging on the wall and the cabinets being painted in the same eggshell white her mother paints her kitchen in. she cooks for her father and changes him into a more caring and active social person. teaching him how to talk to people bit by bit. And it works. Charlie's new found strenght and self worth leads him into finding the woman of his dreams who shares the same interests as him. Bella knows what she wants and will do anything to get it. she accepts the way things go and tries to work with or around it. Twilight is far far far from perfect. But thats life. Teenagers becoming adults is messy, sexually loaded forced and free. And nobody can do a thing about it

[@rae8961]

👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@BrightElk]

"Teenagers becoming adults is a messy sexually loaded force and free. And nobody can do a thing about it." Quote of the year. Someone give that lady a medal!

[@abiade9614]

I love your comment. But I really think the film did a bad job representing all the points you made because I did not get any of those traits from “movie” Bella. I think I’ll read the book.

[@sammykent5752]

How selfless, she loves her parents. Like.... Most children do.

[@mariahyohannes]

The problem with her selflessness though was it wasn't being reciprocated. All that time she was devoting to make the people around her "better" should have been the time to learn and make herself better.

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

Something that always pissed me off about Twilight haters is their damn hypocrisy when it comes to vampires. The ones who refuse to accept the Twilight vampires as vampires are the same people who complain about vampire tropes always being the same. I've heard so many people ranting about how it sucks that vampires always look the same, pale, fangs, have a weakness against sunlight etc. and that there's nothing new about it, and then a Stephanie Meyer came along and made those vampires her own (and imo did a good job explaining it in the books) and they still keep complaining those fckn elitists.

[@anmolt3840051]

I want my vampires to be flamboyant, bisexual and misanthropic like Dio and Alucard (not the edgy boy from Castlevania)

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

Anmol Biswas Sounds about right!

[@katiebayliss9887]

Anmol Biswas which Alucard?

[@katiebayliss9887]

Like me personally I’d rather have vampires who fight with swords like Castlevania and think cgi running and flips are stupid, but it is pretty original

[@anmolt3840051]

@@katiebayliss9887 Alucard from Hellsing Ultimate.

[@rusted_ursa]

It makes sense that a story about no one having any choices is a hit with teens. That's what being a teen feels like.

[@abraham2172]

The irony is, Bella makes all decisions independently and is able to push through every single one of them, mostly against Edwards strict refusal.

[@mimimurlough]

I had almost forgotten how I reacted when I read the first book, when Bella announced that she wanted to become a vampire. Yes, the books are problematic, but I wonder how much of the fan base grew from Bella's character. Imagine, a teenage girl who knows what she wants and is proven right. In a world of House, Sherlock and their followers I'm not sure we really understand how rare that is.

[@vinceknox4425]

It’s notable the difference in reactions to male wish-fulfillment to female wish-fulfillment.

[@pheonixrises11]

in A Scandal in Bohemia Sherlock gets beat by a woman :3 it’s pretty cool except for Watson considering her to the The Woman in Sherlock’s mind, implying an attraction. But l’ve always seen Sherlock as asexual so :/ l heard the tv show botches the character, making her silly, which is really sad.

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

Bella is the biggest setback to feminism since the sandwich. She is a diabolical manipulative bitch who doesn't care about the innocent people killed because of her.

[@BabyGirlTiny]

Yeah. But bella only wanted that to be with Edward. She doesn't care about anything at all as long as she got to be with Edward. She never thought about her father or her mother, or any consequences or setbacks. She was so determined to be a vampire for edward and edward only. That's was the entire reason why she was so Adament in becoming a vampire and that's not positive

[@mimimurlough]

@@BabyGirlTiny Like I said, problematic. But actually knowing what she wants, admitting it and even demanding it is depressingly radical.

[@Ana-rt6dg]

Just an interesting addition to that scene... When Jacob is at the beach and says that "None of them belongs to themselves anymore, but their genes have convinced them that they're happy", those two people by the sea that Jacob was looking at were supposed to be Quil and Claire. Quil was Jacob's friend, a teenage boy too (around 15 or 16 years old, I think) and he literally imprinted on this 3 year old girl named Claire. So, from that moment onwards, his entire life was defined by her, meant to revolve around her life. In the books, Jacob mentions how much time Quil spends with her, that he goes to children's birthday parties, lets her put makeup on him, plays peek-a-boo for hours and somehow never gets bored, and always feels happy. Quil was also the first one to imprint on a child (even before Jacob) and it got the pack shocked (because until then they used to think that imprinting on children was just a myth). Some of them find it scandalous, but they know that Quil and Claire now have an unbreakable bond and that there's nothing anyone can do about it, so they just accept it.

[@elle.3792]

Exactly. Also, Bella expresses her disgust when she heard that Quil had imprinted on a literal 3 y/o. However, Jacob explained that it wasnt like that. The imprinting bond varies according to ages. Kinda like maturing. They only see the other person as their age group is supposed to be seen as. It is a strange concept, sure, pedophilic zones, but if you think about it in that way, it's clear to see what Jacbo meant that "Claire is going to be the happiest 3 y/o in existence" or something like that. The imprinting party just adjusts to their imprinted half needs.

[@darylesells19]

+Ana It’s a shame this wasn’t incorporated into the movies at all. It’d have answered a few questions for the audience about Jake’s feelings towards Nessie.

[@eveelima1]

Yeah, it basically means Quil will feel like he's Claire's parent, because a parent is the strongest kind of love a 3yo really need. He'll always be what she needs.

[@athenajaxon2397]

Yeah I feel like that was neccessary in the movies because it showcased not all imprinting is sexual in nature

[@emilyclarke8222]

@@eveelima1 I also see it similarly to a guardian angel in some ways?

[@stormcall7470]

"None of them belong to themselves anymore" "the worst part is their genes tell them they're happy about it" That's having kids for ya

[@dudetheman3]

Haha, too true!

[@frannyc7248]

this is how I feel when I listen or read a book where there's werewolf or vampire or any creature that has mates in it

[@emiliamarjakangas1785]

This made me laugh too hard lol

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

I’m so edgy, lol! Kids bad!

[@katkat7828]

@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick ooh...that was not the point. What an inbecilic comment

[@MiloKuroshiro]

The best thing on the whole twilight series is without a doubt the soundtrack in all movies. It's legit AMAZING. Not well implemented, but amazing bands and songs all around. New Moon specially. Twilight has a lot of problems and problematic stuff, but overall it's a hot and cold classic romance with high stakes, and that's exciting and speaks a lot from young passions. The premise is strong and thrilling. The execution is lacking and it derails completely at the end, but as it is a really entry level and easy to digest novel, that's irrelevant. The first book specially is a really fun read

[@charlottesims9604]

MrBowser oh my... the whole Victoria chase scene with Thom Yorke’s Hearing Damage and Bella’s drowning scene where the lyrics say “even though you’re the only one I see” when she has a vision of Edward... ART Ngl I frequently revisit the new moon soundtrack, it’s just that good

[@princesseuphemia1007]

As much as people hate on the ending for being anti-climactic, I actually appreciated the fact that Meyer resolved the conflict with diplomacy instead of violence. I thought it was a bit boring but refreshing and new at the same time.

[@kieranstark7213]

No matter how sick I am of the Twilight Craze (or “praise”. Maybe one of the reasons why both words mean the same in this regard is because they rhyme, lol), I will give it credit (where credit is due, of course. Its soundtrack with Bruno Mars’ “It Will Rain”, if Icould give out at least one example of a song.

[@oof-wi7hp]

How can you listen to Supermassive Black Hole playing in the background as vampires play baseball and say the soundtrack isn't well implemented? You mad, brah? Sure, perhaps not consistently well-implemented, but the films have more than a handful of good music moments. Atleast give them that fully. My favourite use of song was when It's A Possibility played in the montage of Bella's life after Edward leaves her in New Moon. The sadness, the despair. 👌🏽

[@oof-wi7hp]

@@charlottesims9604 New Moon has the best soundtrack of all the twilight films, I listen to it all the time. "The Violet Hour" is a god given gift!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

What’s amazing to me about Big Joel is his ability to take any work of art, regardless of its surface details and our value judgments of them, and observe its qualia. Make its essence known. He takes a series like this and makes me genuinely consider its own ideas on its own terms. I love that. It’s such s refreshing way to look at film. Lindsay’s video did a lot to tell me that most critiques of this series are poisoned by unwarranted prejudice against teenage girls and their interests, but I still harbored genuine criticisms of it and thought it deserving. And I still do, in a sense. But what this video did was show me WHAT this series’ fans actually got from it and experienced, and why there’s genuine value in the work, and that revelation is invaluable. The concept of finding peace in helplessness is so profoundly sad and real that it blows my mind.

[@BvousBrainSystems]

This is another instance of Big Joel seeing deep into a movie where I stopped at the surface level. My favourite example is the Lion King, but he did this with literally every movie he's reviewed.

[@chuckbatman5]

I also like that nothing in his videos really negate anyone else's criticism of the subject material, they just open our eyes to new perspectives.

[@ToastyJunebugs]

The channel FilmJoy did a Deep Dive about Twilight you'd probably like. Its the group of them watching it and going over the parts they like of it (like the cinematography and the way the group of Bella's friends are all very supportive of each other). FilmJoy's a great channel.

[@johnsonjohnson3261]

Kinda reminds me of living in China

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Yeah, but both this and linseys video do side step a lot of the arguments as well as insert meaning into something that didn't intend to have much of it; basically things you should avoid when trying to be critical

[@KuR58]

Everytime, I am shocked at how green this movie was.

[@vogonp4287]

It has the same green tone that Fallout 3 does.

[@qualifiedarmchaircritic]

Also, Bella's "power" (being a shield) when she becomes a vampire deserves a closer look. She has spent the last year being tossed about and having to rely on vamps and wolves to protect her from things outside of her control, always fearing for her loved ones (Charlie) to be killed in revenge. Now, she has the power to protect not only herself (from other powers) but also pretty much everyone around her. Talk about a glow-up. At the same time, one could make the case that her being able to shield off powers is exactly what she has been doing this whole time: outside forces have been trying to make her change her mind for the duration of the entire series. She has remained unshakeable, headstrong (even if that might have been stupid in different ways). With her shield power, she nullifies all outside powers because she wills it so. Bella's gift as a vampire and as a human is her conviction that overcomes all outside obstacles.

[@GypsyEyes]

thank you! yes, so true. i love how the gifts vampires have is like a re-interpreted extension/exultion of their strong skill and nature they had as a human. e.g. edward was always someone who understood and could read people.

[@ayesaac]

I mean the entire point of her wanting to become a vampire is so she can be free, too. She's in danger because she's a human (with, apparently, particularly nice smelling blood lmao), and she's associating with vampires. She doesn't want to stop associating with vampires, so she's only being practical in her wanting to become a vampire herself. It actually read to me as pretty empowering. I mean, I read these books as a teenage boy, and actually really loved it. Bella came off at first glance as this needy, angsty teenage girl, but in reality she knew what she wanted, she knew how to get it, and she didn't let other people tell her that she didn't want what she wanted. That's cool, and honestly is a theme which isn't very prevalent in storytelling, particularly for girls, but even for guys. The trope that "the thing the protagonist wants isn't actually what they want", or that it'll somehow suck, or require massive sacrifice is virtually universal. It's just _nice_ to see a story which recognizes, for once, that people _can_ be right about what they want. People _can_ just make the right decision for themselves.

[@MarcusMedomRyding]

I think there's a different interpretation of the agency theme that fits really well with what you describe: that Bella *is* making her own choices, that her agency is centered through the contrast with those around her and rewarded by the narrative. Maybe others are helpless against this or that, but Bella, she knows what she wants, she takes choices towards it, and she gets it

[@MiloStIves]

I'm dressing up as a disaffected youth for Halloween

[@tvremote9394]

So, just like every other day?

[@MiloStIves]

@@tvremote9394 nah most days i larp as a functional adult although its not super convincing

[@breebell468]

Scary.

[@cosmojenkins3020]

Milo St. Ives A classic!

[@cosmojenkins3020]

Ian Taylor Not if he’s American. 😉

[@charlieni645]

Tis the Post-modernist era for Twilight.

[@dohabelko5990]

Heck yeah

[@harshadasamant6211]

Amen... I see quite a few posts now a days which are still dissing twilight but almost in affectionate way and grudgingly accepting that it was not 'all bad'. Maybe it's spurious but can it be correlated to Robert Pattinson getting good name in media due to his batman role?

[@SC-kb9kk]

@@harshadasamant6211 it also helps that Kristen Stewart has become WAY more likable over the years (to the general public)

[@TheFourthWinchester]

As a guy I have to say who tf cares about the messaging? Media aimed at guys like me is filled with toxicity. Twilight is not even a tenth as worse. Let girls and guys enjoy Twilight. Its a fine story with some good performances at the end of the day. In my country, Twilight was cool among guys before it became uncool to love it. Guys absolutely loved Bella.

[@theonlykoh4631]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Elamado97]

Why wont you love bella? She is literally obsessed with the guy

[@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801]

"Thats what Im saying. Who cares if Cuties is phedophilia is ok to like it"

[@user-qe6xo9oe7h]

Hello ! Just by curiosity what is your country ?

[@__Butters__]

Your last commentary on twilight on the repeating theme of lack of control interestingly enough makes me feel as though it might be a reason that it appeals so much to young women. (of course, its also because it's in a woman's perspective but) Around the age that the primary audience is, is at a fundamental part of their life where women are just coming to terms with how they are viewed in the world, and where they are placed in society. Often women start learning at that young age that they don't have much power or control. That they will often feel very powerless so I can't help but find it interesting that the main perspective that struck you was the lack of autonomy, the pure powerlessness and the celebration of it. It takes a feeling that so many women go through and presents it, maybe for one of the first times, positively. I wouldn't be shocked if that is part of the reason its main fans are young women.

[@katiebayliss9887]

I think that’s also why the witch was popular as well

[@EmmaDilemma039]

But why is that a good thing? Why is that something you'd want to spin into something positive?

[@__Butters__]

@@EmmaDilemma039 because while women don't have good experience with lack of autonomy irl they can suddenly through a work of fiction where there is no backlash or consequences they can make a fantasy were a lack of autonomy can be fun or romantic it often time has to do with women playing with they're boundaries and trauma and deciding what they are okay or not okay with in a fantasy setting of a movie where they can't get hurt some women like giving up some control and can learn that through fiction.

[@ADreamerWithAPen]

I think a lot of people (myself included) loved Twilight specifically because of the sense of effortless happiness involved in the lack of choice you described. I think, especially where love is involved, a lot of people worry about who they chose to be with, so the idea of having that choice be made for you by the universe and it ultimately being the best possible choice for you is rather appealing.

[@user-xb5bz4fu9o]

This! The popularity of the soulmate trope is bc the idea that you are unquestionably making the right choice when it comes to who you love is comforting in the face of so much insecurity

[@corbinbarron8772]

That’s some commie shit

[@raylast3873]

One thing is certain: the messaging cannot possibly be anywhere near as harmful as 50-Shades-of-Gray, which gets not nearly enough crap.

[@callies8907]

50 shades of gray as Twilight fanfiction is absolutely ridiculous. How on earth could anyone read Twilight's Edward "good Christian lad who would rather die than hurt his partner and avoids having sex specifically because he doesn't want to hurt her" Cullen and go "Ok, so he's an abusive kinkster who likes hurting young women."

[@ReplicatorFifth]

Callie S 50 shades started out as a Twilight fanfiction, the author realized there was money to be made and changed some things and 50 Shades became the successful porn book we know today

[@callies8907]

@@ReplicatorFifth Most of the fanfiction was already written when James secured the book deal. It appears in print much the same as it appeared online.

[@nooneimportant7648]

@@callies8907 thank you I think what everyone overlooks is that Edward only wants what's best for Bella and trys to protect her from everything

[@doublepinkstar]

@@callies8907 Yes!! It seriously confused me how someone could read Bella and Edward's relationship and have that kind of take-away of the type of relationship they were in... Yes he was protective but he also saw how strong and independent Bella was and viewed her as a person, not a sexual object to control

[@cartooningfanart]

What people do not understand is that Twilight is an emotion-driven story and not just an action-driven story. It is far from perfect, but perfectly illustrates all our anxiety, pain, confusion and love we experienced as teenagers and the emotions we continue to struggle with throughout life. Although I'm a grown man, I love the story of heartwarming figures.

[@amby8719]

what’s crazy to think is when bella first came to their biology class, edward was planning on how he was going to kill everyone in the classroom just so he can kill bella. but the only reason he didn’t was because he didn’t want to disappoint his family and especially his father.

[@natalie9796]

he had a role model and loving family who he didn't want to disappoint and make worry about him. on the other hand, he is a fierce predator who can barely cope with instincts. and the bond with his family really helps him. btw it would be very interesting to see more thoughts about predator-prey relationships and conflicts about it. is it love or predator just wants the blood of his perfect prey and the prey just can't resist the attraction of the predator.

[@amby8719]

nat alie i agree. and it doesn’t help how edward, alongside emmett, are the family’s protectors. have you read midnight sun yet? it’s very interesting and expands on the predator/prey concept.

[@iateyursandwiches]

Yeah it was interesting. What I don't understand is how his inherent blood lust translated to him wanting to love/protect only her, like why is everyone so in love with bella including a vampire who just met her? It just seems like too much mindless wish fulfillment. I get the concept of blank slate characters and everyman/woman characters but even that is too dense, especially with how vanilla the romance is. I feel like it they should have been more substance to why she ends up liking him and trusting him. Or if they want to go the route of making her fien with being potentially biten just make it her kink or interest in BDSM or something that she ends up exploring with him. That would certainly be more empowering from a feminist stand point, but alas the writer IS a Mormon...

[@matthewmcneany]

Big Joel: 'I don't understand why teenage girls like this' Also big Joel "shows topless Taylor Lautner in video" Also also big Joel gives detailed and comprehensive description of how twilight discusses themes of agency and identity which might be significant to teenagers (and in the case of agency particularly significant for girls/women).

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

It doesn't discuss agency. That's grasping at straws. The only real lack of agency is imprinting, which is painted as ultimately positive even though Jacob doesn't like it. Except for when she was taken to Arizona and up on the mountain, Bella got what she wanted without challenges. Wanted to go to bookstore? Fine. Want to go hang out with the boyfriend? Fine. There is no agency to discuss when there aren't challenges to it. I'm going to go right to abortion: There's no agency to discuss if you get pregnant and want to keep it. Want to talk agency? Try wanting an abortion and having to fight to get it. THAT is asserting agency. Maintaining the status quo isn't.

[@chrislawuk]

Turns out you can be an “Author” and not know what agency means... and I’m not talking about Meyer

[@Zack-bt3mk]

@@authoralysmarchand4737 girl you didn't even watch the video, huh? the point is that Bella knows what she wants, she knows what is right for her, and in the end she is proven RIGHT. that's powerful for adolescent readers. it was powerful for me.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Except she doesn't what's right for her. She only half the stupid stuff she gets herself into through no input on her own. That's not empowering; it's dangerous.

[@carsonfisher2463]

@@authoralysmarchand4737 That's the thing though she does have agency even if it is never challenged. It does not need to be a 2 sided polarized political debate to be discussed. Which is somewhat refreshing. Does this make a big abrupt statement? No, not really but it includes a couple interesting thought-provoking concepts and comforting for the reader. Especially for teen readers. * What if you had one option to obtain happiness but it would be a moral compromise? (Edward) #EthicalDilemmasYo * What if you got what you wanted and it makes you happy but it was never your choice? (Jacob) #StuckInTheMatrix * What if you made your decisions based on what you want and you were right even with all those things standing in your way like fear and desperation yet still you make the choice and end up happy? (Belle) #FollowYourHeartOrWhatever Discussion on what makes a choice is a very relatable thought to young readers where their life consists of almost 100% of figuring out how to make choices. Later on, they will be faced with more Thanos level decisions. But if you want a little opinionated and a lot of thought-provoking questions this video and the book discusses a couple quite thoroughly.

[@Khandrake]

Ooph that's sorta existentially horrifying. "None of them belong to themselves anymore"

[@adriox23]

They belong to god. Its god's plan. God is good because he's god, therefore everything he does and owns is good. Rebelling from god is whats bad. The writer is just a determinist mormon. Its not existential, its religious.

[@oof-wi7hp]

@@adriox23 _I_ am not a mormon tho, and can engage with the idea outside the religious context

[@skywise8]

I could never get past the imprinting on children

[@savanna8103]

@@skywise8 you're supposed to be whatever they need. like if a wolf imprints on a married woman then she can choose to just be best friends or like "family" to eachother. so when they imprint on children, it's like a big brother/protective bond, not a romantic one.

[@jacob_massengale]

#marriage

[@superliseida]

I remember being so guilty for enjoying the twilight books and movies when I was younger. I would literally hide the fact that I had read all the books and legitimately enjoyed the movies. I wish I could go back in time and give myself a hug lol

[@deborahminter6231]

Never listen to trolls. The haters just call themselves critics...in reality they just trolled a series of books that brought many people joy.

[@fkrkf]

No, this is the correct response to twilight. Its waking up to find yourself binge eating sour cream at 4am. Its not wrong necessarily but its not something to be proud of either. Like being a teenager in general.

[@davebob4973]

bfhh thats a btuh thing to say most recent reply guy im going to bed

[@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801]

Sometimes shame is a good thing. As a kid I like Adam Sandler movies, now I wish I was more ashamed about that fact because those movies are racist and sexist shit. Like Twilight.

[@elizabethzem3319]

I think what got under my skin about this and so many teen girl favorites being ridiculed and scrutinized, is that it always felt like a already made conclusion that they are bad and then people searched for evidence. As a teen girl it always felt like I was on the defense, made to feel ashamed for my "guilty pleasures" which everyone had. Some things we just like, and being told again and again that I shouldn't like that crap was exhausting. As for Twilight's problems, there are definitely some just like a lot of literature. But there is no more dismissed and universally judged book than romance novels, especially those geared towards young girls. What bothers me is that these "problematic" traits in Twilight are seen as so bad only because young girls are seen as so impressionable. There is an assumption the they are emotional and prone to making especially bad choices, and thus need to be told what to watch and read "for their own good". I understand that younger people are less mature, but in general they can think critically enough to know that some boy they meet won't be their "edward" and they shouldn't give everything for him, and if they don't I think that is a symptom of a much larger issue. Something can have value apart from its moral quality, and sometimes that's simply the entertainment it gives its reader.

[@Priya-cm3tr]

So true. I would always put the entertainment value of a media above it's "moral quality", I don't need media to tell me if something is right or wrong, I would like it to entertain me. I can be creeped out by a guy telling me that he had stalked me (which has happened btw, I was furious) but I can still find it unproblematic in Twilight. It's a fantasy story and I don't expect a vampire to adhere to the human moral rules, for the story to be enjoyable. Otherwise, movies like John Wick should come with the disclaimer that people should not go on a killing spree if their dog dies.

[@Rh-sl2kt]

You probably won't see this but i was one of those people who would post things like "everytime this gets reposted a twilight fan *something bad happens to them*" and i regret feeling superior to other teenage girls over my likings

[@sammykent5752]

But those things are still bad though. Especially if they're presented badly. Just because teenage girls are smart enough to know not to go chasing after "Edwards" in real life, that doesn't absolve the books of still having an "Edward" as the main love interest. Look I understand that the overwhelming hate that twilight, it's fans and the author got was over the top unnecessary and very much rooted in our society's misogyny, but the books are STILL legitimately bad and are STILL legitimately badly written and plotted with tons of distasteful subject matter (e.g. "Imprinting", which is just ALL manners of wrong, or Meyer's distasteful portrayal of Native American culture). The problems with Edward and his relationship with Bella are bad BY THEMSELVES, not just because it could "corrupt" young girls into thinking relationships like this are wishful (which it certainly COULD), but mostly simply because of how it's portrayed and depicted.

[@anyasp365]

I was the same. Felt bad for liking it but I never understood why people thought that on my 16 years of age couldn't separate the fiction romance from reality. I didn't wait for a fictional character to teach me what is an accepted behavior in a relationship.....that's also why I liked the movies. It had none of the typical teen romance struggle. I watched to escape reality not to learn from it

[@fairleylloyd5164]

The “teenage girls are impressionable and can’t think for themselves” mentally pisses me off so much because it’s so freaking misogynistic. People can think for themselves. Not everyone is that impressionable

[@Arexion5293]

So it all boils down to: "Cthulhu and You: How to be happy in a nihilistic, uncaring universe where you have no control over anything."

[@chaosvii]

It has obvious parallels to a high-control environment that derives its authority through mysticism and/or force, yet is still broad enough to accommodate the emptiness felt from having working parents that just don’t have the awareness needed to be there for their child’s angst over teen crap. Be it petty gossip all the way up to heavy bullying & abusive romances. And if most stories I’ve read before Twilight did a worse job of instilling hope and contentment despite the sheer power of outside forces than this series, I’d be inclined to offer a half-hearted kudos to Twilight for being better than the others. Oh well.

[@iiiiitsmagreta1240]

So... a Cthulhu Mythos romance exploring the themes of Twilight but with better execution? I'd watch that. Hell, I should write that.

[@lexort4204]

@@iiiiitsmagreta1240 Write it! Dew it! Lol

[@LeanneLukacs]

Well, this might not be exactly what you're looking for, but Lindsay Ellis co-wrote a Twilight parody called "Awoken" in which the love interest is literally Cthulhu. It's actually pretty good, both hilarious in parts and also eerily accurate at imitating Meyer's writing style in others. Check out her "Booze your own Adventure" series on youtube to see what went into the whole process of writing it.

[@Frivolitility]

Joel has the admirable ability to think more deeply about media than the creators did.

[@livthedream91]

Hari Narayan Khalsa Le morte d’auteur 😉

[@TheWipal]

pfftt lmaoo u right

[@Luksoropoulos]

That is generally the beauty of scholarship of cultural artefacts

[@tarvoc746]

@@livthedream91 "The author is dead, and Big Joel killed him." - Friedrich Nietzsche

[@sk8aintstr813]

True

[@hybrina790]

the weird thing about imprinting is that there is absolutely no guarantee that the other person will reciprocate feelings for them. imprinting is a one sided activity

[@eveelima1]

Jacob says that they have a choice but why wouldn't they choose the werewolf? Because the imprinted werewolf is genetically made to be the most perfect partner that person could ever have, no matter what kind of partner that person might want, the werewolf would be exactly what they need. I find this a bit troubling since we know Sam hurt Emily to the point of giving her permanent scars so, well, not that perfect of a choice, so... But well

[@eveelima1]

But I guess if the person decided not to reciprocate, the werewolf would automatically be happy to back off and respect their choice. The werewolf would only ever want that person to be happy, no matter what.

[@The1Dragonprincess]

Brenda Costa de Lima I heard that if the werewolf was rejected they’d endure some unbearable pain from it.

[@aniflowers1998]

@@The1Dragonprincess I think I remeber something along those lines as well. And it would be quiet logical. I can imagine going through the worst period of time of my live if the person my howl universe revolves around says they don't want me. Must be like a child seriously telling there parents they hate them and meaning every word of it. Stabing someone with a sword would probably be less painfull.

[@AlexBobalexRavenclaw]

Have you ever tried stalking? It worked for me! 😇👍🏼

[@kat7512]

I remember hearing this line from Overly Sarcastic Productions that a lot of post-apocalyptic stories aren't as scary to children and teens because the loss of autonomy isn't as large of a loss when they already exist in a world where they lack control. I feel that the same thing sort of happened with Twilight. As adults look at it they can feel this vibe of lacking autonomy and feel uncomfortable while younger audiences don't because there is almost difference between the worlds they live in. So in addition to Joel's point's, I would like to add that Twilight has two different effects on people. To people who normally lack autonomy Twilight is wish fulfilment, but to people who have it, its a dystopia where people gain a hollow happiness in return for losing their autonomy.

[@thisisthewaterandthisisthe3254]

“I don’t think that Italian man is being entirely fair.” Lol

[@micfoz1]

Loving this twilight renaissance

[@BigBadWolframio]

For me the male characters being “unable to control their desires” is horrifying... but because it’s the same way people usually talk about men in general and it’s often used to take away responsiability for sexual violence and the likes.

[@emilyclarke8222]

And there is a fair amount of threat from sexual violence against Bella in the plot. In the first book/film there is a group of men who want to attack her. In book/movie 2 she gets on an older man's motorbike to put herself in danger. It's also something people are aware of in how strong edward and jacobs flashes of anger are. Particularly Jacob when he doesn't have his feelings reciprocated. In the following two installments she has grown as a character, but when she is still portrayed as finding herself in this vampire world, men being unable to control their desires is a prominent source of threat in the plot.

[@platypuspalace4987]

However while Edward cannot control how he feels about Bella, he exercises extraordinary control over his own behavior, regardless of his desires. No matter how overwhelming and uncontrollable his desires feel, he can and does stop himself from acting on them.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Especially since the book uses that as justification for practices such as a teenage boy grooming a three year old.

[@LoveYourself-my9nz]

​@@emilyclarke8222because it's more realistic and I personally liked it as a storyline... I think they showed more realistic teenage behaviour that how we sometimes make very stupid choices and if they go wrong the consequences can be very big. Jacob's personality was a hot headed person so frustration was very real. And twilight never justified that man can't control their desires! Rather it was more about vampires having problems with controlling their desires.

[@iateyursandwiches]

​@@platypuspalace4987one can argue, why he doesn't make more effort attempt to avoid her outside of class though. He basically continues to hang out with her. I wish they put in a implication that he was initally going to attack her/ manipulate her at first(hence the watching her in sleep) then felt bad about it. Idk, it would have addressed the narrative more intersting and given him more depth.

[@joeyjaze9154]

I always say that if twilight was taken seriously and put in the right hands, say an art house director/writer, and treated as Neo-noir thriller etc rather than a romance, I think it would be a respected great film, the story is too weird to be bad

[@thetotallynon-suspicioussh4126]

I've never thought of it that way but it would actually make more sense.

[@meaghan5065]

They should re make it like this!!!

[@TheFourthWinchester]

Catherine Hardiwicke did do the horror vibes with the first one. This is why it was so beloved when it was released.

[@iateyursandwiches]

Another option would be to go full on unhinged smut. Like bella is basically into BDSM but is a bit self conscious about it and biting his her kink so she eventually gets to experiement with Edward's. Also she had this constant looming desire throughout the series for him to just bike her already. Definitely feels more empowering for females and allowing many to indulge in their fantasies. Unfortunately, twilight series is written by a Mormon so...

[@LeanneLukacs]

As someone who got sucked into reading all the books as a teen while never truly becoming a fan and even actively hating them for a while, I have to agree with everything you said, although somehow I never really looked at the series from this exact perspective before. Everyone always talks about Bella's lack of agency, how she's constantly being manipulated/stalked/in perpetual need of rescue, etc. But the fact that hardly any of the characters have true agency and either flies over the author's head or is celebrated by her (depending on how you look at it) is never really commented on. In fact, you could argue that Bella has more agency than other characters, particularly Jacob and the other werewolves. She chooses to be with Edward and is in fact pretty active in pursuing both him and the truth about his vampirism, she chooses to give birth when she knows it'll probably kill her, and she's the only character we meet who actually chooses to become a supernatural being. Also, in the Eclipse film (but unfortunately not the book), she actively helps Edward in a fight by cutting her arm to distract another vampire, despite knowing that as a puny human there's nothing else she can do. What's interesting to me is that while all the other vampires and werewolves have their agency forcibly taken away (being turned into supernatural beings against their will, being forced to imprint) and most of the choices they make in-story revolve around Bella, Bella's own lack of agency instead largely manifests in a lack of consequences. She makes a lot of life-altering decisions, but the choice is always easy, and in the end she gets everything she wants with no lasting consequences or regrets. Sure, there are some token instances where characters try to convince her there are negatives to becoming a vampire, or that having a vamp baby will kill her, or of Jacob in particular trying to convince her that she's really in love with him and should pick him over Edward. But we're never shown Bella struggling over any of this AT ALL. She claims to also love Jacob, but has no regrets over marrying Edward, and all three of them end up happy in the end. She ignores any and all potential downsides to vampirism or giving birth, and then it turns out there are no downsides anyway, because she turns out to be a perfect vampire with a perfect baby that essentially raises itself. I think a big part of the reason why I was so sucked into the books despite not actually liking them was because there were actually a lot of interesting ideas with poor execution. I could get behind sparkly vampires who are so inhumanly beautiful that you can't help but be drawn to them to your doom, or vampires that for some strange reason seem to be made of stone, or the horrifying concept of imprinting, or even just a story of an ordinary girl who faces a genuinely hard choice of whether or not to become a vampire, or of a girl who becomes one against her will and then has to reconcile both the good and bad of being one. It's just that Meyer never truly explores these concepts in any depth, frequently contradicts her own ideas, and seems utterly clueless in regards to some of the more intriguing (or downright terrifying) implications of some of them.

[@oof-wi7hp]

very true, as an old fan all i do is think about lost potential when the topic of twilight comes up also leah clearwater deserved better, justice for leah

[@BabyGirlTiny]

You also have to understand that these characters revolve around bella and what she wants and what she chooses. It's not that they themselves dont have anything, it's that because bella is the main character, everyone has to bend to her will. It's also to note how much of a mary sue she is as a character.

[@shaniaditmar6764]

She did cut herself to distract the vampires tho in the book but good points

[@etylyne8143]

@@shaniaditmar6764 No she didn't, she thought about it and grabbed a stone but didn't actually cut herself haha

[@shaniaditmar6764]

@@etylyne8143 I just read the book yesterday yes she did

[@CheyenneLin]

i see twilight, and a lot of things aimed at teen girls, as just harmless wish fulfilment. every type of teenager has their favorite wish fulfiment, as not every teen is into paranormal romance. i think a younger me would be like "twilight is the death to us all", but in hindsight im just like "hm that was an interesting phase of mine". it's like wanting to blame mass shootings on violent video games, it just doesn't make much sense.

[@CheyenneLin]

This is also the reason I don’t fret too much about movies and books like After. I know it has its problematic and darker aspects, but at the end of the day it’s some healthy teen wish fulfillment. I don’t think people who read it are taking it literally. Teens are smarter than you think. But some people would have believe it’s like the worst thing ever. It’s weird sure, but it’s popular for a reason

[@TheMorganVEVO]

Thank you! I don’t know why, but people had this weird, obsessively hostile energy towards that kind of content. It’s really uncalled for. Out of all the other problematic media that we tolerate on a regular basis, Twilight was hardly the worst thing to ever happen. I will never understand the intense level of vitriol it attracted. It was clearly a particular kind of genre for a particular kind of demographic. Yet people acted like it didn’t deserve life because they couldn’t enjoy it. Why did everyone have such a hard time co-existing with it back then? 😂 You don’t really see teenage girls being that antagonist towards things that clearly aren’t made for them. They were just minding their own business and watching some vampire movies in peace. I guess as we all matured, we’ve learned to let people enjoy things.

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

@@CheyenneLin What bugs me about After is simply the bad plot😂

[@CheyenneLin]

@@totallyanonymousbish9599 sure!! i mean i dont feel the need to rewatch twilight ever again and ofc its not above criticism. i think the only part where it becomes problematic is when we start attacking the fans (and author) who like it who are literally kids enjoying their first fandom

[@totallyanonymousbish9599]

@@CheyenneLin True though, very true👏

[@rainbow_duck1481]

I’m a girl, and my mum made me read twilight. Little did she know, I only kept reading the series because I had a crush on Alice

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

My bisexual panic at watching Twilight and seeing Robert Pattinson and Ashley Greene on screen at the same time.

[@satan9487]

I enjoyed twilight. I don't think a movie always has to have ""good messages"" for its audience, sure they might still be problematic if the audience is impressionable. But I enjoy it as a fiction, I dont watch movies to learn any life lessons, sometimes its pure escapism. I watched it when I was in my teens and enjoyed it, now that i'm 21 I watched it back and didn't find it as engaging exactly how I didn't find harry potter engaging anymore but twilight will always be a good, comfy, movie series for me.

[@deborahminter6231]

👍

[@rashotcake6945]

Idk, this feels like the same train of logic people use to excuse racist jokes. For example, someone could say “i don’t enjoy comedy for the life lessons, it’s simply comforting escapism/entertainment, i don’t think comedy always needs to have ‘good messages’ so what’s the big deal if jokes are racist sometimes.” See how that kind of argument is somewhat similar to the one you’re making? I’m not calling you a racist or a sexist but it’s a bit more complicated than simply “problematic entertainment is okay as long as the audience isn’t impressionable”

[@Elamado97]

twilight is for girls what fight club is for men, a cult classic, shouldn't be looking upto the characters although i do like tyler durden a lot, no need to acknowledge their toxicity, just enjoy the ride.

[@satan9487]

@@rashotcake6945 i mean as a person of color, some racist jokes are fine others aren't. There's a nuance to everything. Racist/bad jokes are sometimes okay but there's a time and place for it.

[@cassif19]

Title: a surprisingly passionate defence of Twilight Content: "Edward brakes up with Bella. Because Bla Bla Bla.... Bloodlust. I don't know" 😅

[@chaosvii]

It’s surprising, b/c even that level of enthusiasm is more than one can expect to muster for something that is easily dunked on and has more dunkable things about it than Space Jam.

[@radhapatel217]

Bruh, I got a neurophysiology exam on Halloween. I'll be dressed as stress.

[@vannakinder352]

Yikes hope you did well. Did you harness the big brain power of Sam Harris.

[@radhapatel217]

Thanks! I've harnessed some sheer luck and repeatedly slammed mine own atrophied brain at the test paper. Somehow made away with a 91%

[@SupaSweetKay]

This lack of autonomy is ESPECIALLY present in Midnight Sun, with Edward’s perspective of events, because Alice talks about how she knows for certain that Bella will either be killed by him or be a vampire, and he is trying to outrun that reality, imagining a better brighter future for her as a human, but clearly eventually it happens anyway.

[@amanimohamed9623]

Loving how we're going through this twilight renaissance and everyone is fully behind it

[@indigohalf]

Idk if you knew this, but that horror of non-autonomy is basically exactly how conservative American christianity teaches young people to think about sex. Your body becomes a vessel for desire if you so much as think about it too much, you lose all control over your thoughts and emotions, choices made about sex have irreversible effects on your very identity. (And of course the only valid choice is to have a lifelong monogamous heterosexual relationship.) Twilight got popular with WASPy teens because it toed the line of being a little dangerous but not in any way challenging to what they learned in Sunday school. Also I'm being a bedsheet ghost this year.

[@oof-wi7hp]

i think meyer failed in her mission then, cos twilight was horny as fuck

[@thatyoutubechannel9953]

It's also how conservatives teach kids about drugs. You smoke weed once and then it's literally impossible to stop. To be fair, it's not far off in the case of a few drugs - like meth - for a portion of the population - like my brother. The problem is that they paint ALL illegal drugs like this.

[@indigohalf]

@@oof-wi7hp That's what I mean, it's horny in a conservative Christian way. A lot of romance novels do something similar, they just aren't aimed at teen readers.

[@oof-wi7hp]

@@indigohalf ohhh, gotcha

[@caimacd]

@@oof-wi7hp Lol was it? (I never actually watched it) Just seems odd... Literally teenagers and hundred year old monsters pretending to be teens... I ain't a prude.. But...

[@hannavignolo6454]

I'm dressed as a lesbian old woman for Halloween

[@jblue1622]

Grandma hmm Grandma we’re still a few days out from Halloween, pretty sure you need to just admit this is a life choice and not a momentary appropriational one 😜😘

[@happyhydralisk6885]

Grandma am I your favorite grandchild

[@durcheinander5554]

Grandma Please please, will you wear a bandana? Idk why, just thought it'd look cool.

[@loughlinmckay7359]

That’s how I dress everyday

[@ashestoashes78]

You should be yourself all the time Grandma

[@bladeeshotgf5500]

I’m so happy twilight is finally NOT being shit on. Honestly it was the best experience of my teenage years.

[@GypsyEyes]

i feel you. it got me immersed into another world. i come from an abusive, chaotic family. twilight was my fantasy. my escape. my home

[@sk8aintstr813]

so true. the most magical time of my childhood

[@cutiedopo17]

Same for early tween year

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

I have to say, as much as people complained about Bella being bland and passive, I absolutely respected the fact that when she made decisions she didn’t waver on them. Sure a lot of times things happened around her and to her that were out of her control, but anything that WAS within her control showed that she was unbreakable. Even if the Volturi didn’t get involved she would have just had Alice turn her. And when she becomes a vampire and can finally go toe-to-toe with the supernatural creatures in the story she dominates. That’s what the cover of Breaking Dawn is about. She graduates from a pawn, a weak human surrounded and protected by more powerful players, to a queen, the most powerful piece on the board. I respect Stephanie Meyer for that. And I unironically relate to Bella because of it.

[@wj2429]

Still think they're bad but, ultimately, bad and good are uninteresting designations to me now. Especially after how much sheer pleasure I've had with 'bad' works of art. Keep up the good work big boy.

[@aderyn7600]

I feel the same way about lifetime and hallmark PSA movies about hot media topics.

[@chuckbatman5]

I think being "interesting" is ultimately more important and complex than being good or bad when it comes to creative works. And while Twilight, yes, is bad, it's also undeniably interesting and not just a cookie-cutter bland YA story.

[@RoyalFusilier]

I prefer to express similar thoughts as "'Is it good?' and 'Do I like it?' are entirely different axies which need not have any overlap whatsoever'. All four positions on the grid can be fascinating and even insightful when explored.

[@ryanlacroix6425]

Determinism: the romance

[@AvgJane19]

+

[@annyaw6233]

“why do teenage girls like it so much?” I , a teenage girl , watched the twilight saga with my friends , also all teen girls. One answer. Sexy vampires and werewolf’s that like u a lot and watch to protect you

[@fatimagic1365]

see, my core problem with twilight, even when i was a kid in high school dunking on it like everyone else, isn't the classic "woman literally ends her life for a man" argument. twilight is a fantasy of not just the supernatural, but of the teenage first love experience, and most people will grow out of that. what bothers me most about twilight is the *internalized* misogyny at the heart of it--specifically how rosalie and leah--the two female characters with arguably the most depth who (not coincidentally) both fight back against bella's idea of the "perfect life"--are labeled as "harpies" and "bitches" within the text. we're not supposed to identify with rosalie's desire for revenge, and her feelings of being violated not just by her rapist fiance, but by carlisle, who "gifts" her with eternal life without her consent (speaking of agency). we're supposed to look at leah clearwater, another major character who deals with intimate partner abuse and who feels monstrous within her supernatural form, as "bitter" and "too hung up on sam" to have any kind of valid opinions. it's only characters like bella or alice, the happy or "quirky" female characters, who we're supposed to want to be. rosalie is wrong for telling bella not to give up on her mortal life. leah is wrong for calling out bella on how she treats pre-breaking dawn jacob as a placeholder for edward and breaks his heart. these characters are basically used to bring up legitimate issues with the story and then handwave them away because the characters saying these lines are the "bitches." but i always identified with them most *precisely because* the questioned the nature of the text. and i just feel that with the twilight renaissance that is happening, these characters deserve a lot more attention. it's ironic because they hate each other within the narrative, but they would actually probably be really good friends.

[@lordfreerealestate8302]

In addition, the prose of the books is awful. I can agree to disagree with anyone who likes Twilight, but its problems can not be overlooked. It has some very toxic ideas about relationships and consent. Furthermore, like half of the YA books out there today are based on Twilight (basically repackaging) and carry the same toxic ideas. I feel like the YA market has been damaged by Twilight's success because now everything is a repackaging looking to emulate Twilight and its lucrativeness. But again, anyone who grew from Twilight, and enjoys it, that's fine.

[@meaghan5065]

I love this comment. I think these characters definitely deserved better! I loved twilight when I was younger. I always felt like I identified with Alice, but now that I’m older I really appreciate Rosalie and leahs more assertive qualities and I wish they had been presented in a way that uplifted these qualities as opposed to labeling them as “bitchy”. It gives off such internalized misogyny vibes to present them this way

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Yeah twilight hate was overblown but it doesnt mean it doesnt suck. For me personally, when i attempted to read it, i expected it to entice me with the forbidden fruit of loving twilight (because i love monster boyfriend trope and the dangerous love stories) but it was just really boring. I struggled to finish the first book and i could barely stay awake during the movie. Bella is such a boring nothing character and I wish edward was MORE dangerous and villainous.

[@courtneythompson6179]

I think it’s good that people are now starting to view this characters in a different light. Some tumblr posts comes to mind

[@belleretiredaccount]

Thank you for this. I was also never able to put myself in Bella's shoes because the problems about her closest relationships except for her parents are so glaringly obvious, and then afterwards the lack of problems she had to face that every other vampire experienced when they were turned. Personal relatability aside, Bella is simply a flatly-written character. A few teenage quirks and some family issues do not make a character complex.

[@tri-angel]

I am dressing as a witch, thank you very much for your genuine interest

[@Huntracony]

Funny thing about, "I watch you sleep without your permission," "Okay, let's have sex," Buffy the Vampire Slayer did almost the exact same thing, and I don't think I've ever heard anything remotely negative about the series. There probably are people that don't think it's amazing, I just haven't met them.

[@morgansearle3912]

Joss Whedon is... not great. I'm scared to rewatch stuff like firefly now that I bother to analyse my media, to be honest.

[@Huntracony]

​@@morgansearle3912 I'm not much of a Whedon fan myself, not Firefly (though I should give that one another shot) nor Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. nor any of his movies nor Angel, but I am a massive fan of Buffy. Watched it for the first time a few years ago and am currently on my first full rewatch. Though you have made me curious, why aren't you a Whedon fan (anymore)?

[@Iyentra]

I love Firefly and I'll fight anyone who says it's bad. But yeah, it has quite a few problems. At times like these I remind myself what Mother Sarkeesian says - we can enjoy media and critique it at the same time, so that next time it'll be better :)

[@sweetpeabee4983]

Iirc Meyer was a fan of Buffy, particularly the Buffy/Angel ship, so it makes sense that she took some inspiration from those similar story beats. As to criticism of BtVS in general, it's absolutely there. I lurked a certain Whedon fan community when I was younger, and while there was certainly fawning -- a *lot* of fawning, gag -- I remember some of the ickier stuff definitely still found its detractors within that community. Some stuff that comes to mind are certain later season character decisions with Spike and Willow/Tara, Xander just...(shudder) generally, and fricking everything about season 4 of sister show Angel.

[@morgansearle3912]

@@Huntracony well I've never really seen Buffy either, though I've heard good things from non-Leftists. But he's apparently emotionally abusive? Also Whedon had plans for a future firefly ep to have Inara gang-raped by pirates 'as a lesson for Mal', which is... yeah, fuck that. I've heard stuff about the way he casts and talks about his actresses (esp non-white actresses) being troubling, too. He's not building his worlds with positive and intersectional ideas as a foundation, and that naturally bleeds into the media itself. @tauruk I know what the Dark Mother said, but it isn't that easy. I know intellectually that it's possible to appreciate the good bits without ignoring the damaging aspects, but once you start looking at messages and representation it's hard to turn that bit of your brain off! I'm scared any rewatch will utterly destroy my semi-positive memories of the series, back when privilege meant I could just watch pretty colours and cool comebacks without considering what the viewer is given to notice about River and so forth... Breadtube has RUINED me for mainstream entertainment :'(

[@SC-kb9kk]

Bella was always a self-insert wish fulfillment character, that is the fundamental reason the books became so popular. And we are still talking about it in 2019 because we want to understand WHY people got so immersed in this story and dealing with the answers to that question. It's wish fulfillment, yes, but is that really so bad, especially compared to other franchises out there? Honestly I think 50 Shades has contributed to us being so forgiving looking back at this franchise...

[@santanubanerjee6765]

Fifty itself is good too,it (the plot)has it's layers if u see it

[@sammykent5752]

@@santanubanerjee6765 Oh my God. I hope you're joking.

[@JeanBakula]

Fifty shades would have been better if the two actors had an ounce of chemistry. I have read the part was offered to Rob Pattinson, but believe he was sort of a romantic, turned it down, and I can't see him in that Christian Grey role.

[@TheFourthWinchester]

The problem was Twilight was the ONLY actual true-blue female led blockbuster in decades. It played in the big leagues of male dominated franchise blockbusters and not the minor leagues. That made everyone come at it with a pitchfork. How dare it not conform to the male show of strength to achieve that level of box office success? How dare it succeed on a notion as useless as a teen girl's fantasy which played out unlike a guys fantasy? I could see all this even as a teen guy in complete love with Kristen's Bella.

[@dez87]

​@@TheFourthWinchesterits a terrible movie

[@StassiPryce]

Moral of the story, there's this thing called love that makes ppl do things that others wouldn't. I don't think that's the craziest thing to happen in a movie. This Saga was Epic.

[@morgansearle3912]

the ads are probably the most sarcastic thing I've ever seen, thank you for handling the capitalist requirements of the platform and youtube lifestyle as a whole in probably the healthiest way possible

[@a.holland2262]

I read the second book in high school because I was curious (and too self-conscious to check which book I was holding when I went to the library). I was really surprised that I liked it. I was super engaged the whole time, more so than with books I'd confidently call "good". But like, more surprising to me, was that when I told my friends I liked it they didn't judge me? That was weird, but it also gave me the confidence to be more open about other things I liked and my reactions to those things. If my friends didn't judge me for liking Twilight they wouldn't judge me for crying while watching Grave of the Fireflies. They wouldn't judge me for the correct opinion that Double Dragon is the best movie of all time. Twilight brought me closer to my friends is what I'm saying.

[@guaya8681]

Who would judge you for crying while watching Grave of the Fireflies? That movie is depressing :(

[@owayasomething9295]

I read the twilight series because my brother got them for his birthday (this was before the movies came out) It was his series. He read them more than once. We were teenagers, and there is just something about Twilight that really appeals to that age group.

[@raichutoyou]

If you don't cry while watching Grave of the Fireflies, I would question your humanity.

[@oof-wi7hp]

this is the sweetest thing i have read in a while, i love you op

[@no_peace]

The supernatural romance section at Powell's was (is?) in front of a picture window on one of the busiest streets in the entire city which I always found hilarious

[@markin_mask5592]

Unpopular opinion : I love twilight and really inspired by the family bonding they have the father figure and siblings the way they stay together for centuries even though all of them have a totally different personality.

[@spiralmewtrix]

As someone who was in an abusive and controlling relationship during the time when the books were super popular, reading them gave me the kind of escape that I needed and for that I can’t help but look back on the story fondly. Seeing your defense of Twilight really resonated with me based on that experience, especially in relation to living with a sense of powerlessness. Thanks for your take on this.

[@nerdydude1.882]

honestly, I genuinely want a spin-off with Alice & Connor vampiring about during the civil war or Edward being steampunk dexter

[@Crochetems]

nerdydude 1.8 Who is Connor? 😂

[@Ringowasprettygood]

The title reminds me of folding ideas “a lukewarm defense of 50 shades of grey the movie”

[@Lrripper]

OH YEAH THAT IS WHAT I WAS SEARCHING FOR

[@kieranstark7213]

Am I the only one who’s worried Lindsay Ellis is going to do “In Defense of Fifty Shades (feat. Ray William Johnson)”??

[@kharris3352]

I think that’s intentional

[@oof-wi7hp]

@@kieranstark7213 why'd she do that when she already trashed the franchise in her twilight video?

[@paiganism]

except that’s a much more well thought out video unfortunately 😬

[@itsmejejune128]

One thing I don't think translates well is Bella and Jacobs relationship. Jacob hates the idea of imprinting, Bella is addicted to Edward, he wants her to CHOOSE him because it it be one against fate. But they both constantly talk about having some pull towards each other. When Bella gives birth they admit that feeling is gone, and all along it wasn't a choice at all. It was fate for Bella to be with Edward so she could give birth to a baby that Jacob would imprint on. The situation is actually really fucked up and should be infuriating, but they all have to accept it because the Vulturi are coming.

[@jaynedavis3388]

The life threatening stuff is to see Edward but EDWARD WAS NEVER THERE. He has no real knowledge of anything she remembers him saying or doing (he only knows about the jump because Rosalie told him about Alice’s vision & Jacob’s intentionally manipulating Edward on the phone). Bella falls into a SEVERE depression after they split up, so her mind creates a vision of Edward (her protector) when she needed that support. This series also has a lot to say about mental heath, spirituality, the toxicity of adolescent relationships & sexual equality (it’s the girl pulling him into bed & the guy saying she has to put a ring on it 1st). At the end of the day, it was just like Bella said “this was never about choosing between you & Jacob. This was about becoming the person I wanted to be instead of the person I was born to be” (or some such, not enough of a TwiHard to know the exact quote)

[@janinakovacic6402]

I agree. Also something that I feel isn’t pointed out enough is that Bella is the only person in the story who chooses who she wants to be with. She chooses to be with Edward and she balances out her needs and desires with his in order to make their relationship better. While it is debatable whether she is initially drawn to Edward because of his looks and not his “soul”, she has options to choose from (eg. Jacob and Mike as well as any other guy at school), but Edward is the one she want to be with.

[@emilyclarke8222]

@@janinakovacic6402 This taps into teenage girls feelings of lacking agency in relationships in my opinion. Bella holds power in her relationship to be the pursuer as the human with human feelings and sensations. I think a lot of straight teenage relationships involve feelings of 'eagre to please' on the girls part. But bella really doesn't care to please edward in a sexual way. Her sense of insecurity is in her humanity, but it is her humanity which edwards wants to preserve as it is the source of her agency (in his opinion), hence why he refuses the turn her when she asks initially.

[@lennyjay8390]

I'm dressing up as _that Italian Man_ for Halloween 🍕👨🏻‍🍳

[@bendym7001]

aaaaayyyyy I'm criticizin' cinema heeeaah

[@leomorris7573]

honestly the thing with the werewolves imprinting could have made a really good tragedy/horror novel. thank you large joelle for giving me a story idea

[@RilianSharp]

bella wasn't trying to manipulate edward into dating her again when she jumped off the cliff etc. she wasn't expecting him to ever come back. after she stopped him from getting killed by the volturi, she tried to leave him alone again, and he was the one who changed his mind and decided to date her again.

[@graciesaunders7418]

I used to feel really embarrassed about my love for Twilight. They will always hold a special place in my heart because they got me through a hard time and even though I acknowledge that there are some problematic elements in it, I love the books. Loving Twilight does not make me any less smart than others who love Star Wars or Harry Potter, and I'm done apologizing and feeling ashamed about it

[@MatthewStevensOrMattDave]

I think the first film is legitimately the best one. There's... Something there. The Vampire Diaries as a TV show is probably the better version of that? And I think if there was a little more Buffy in there we'd probably see a lot less derision.

[@travdump209]

The films are bizarre to me - while the quality of the cinematography and the mechanical aspects of film goes way higher up, the quality of the writing absolutely craters. And I absolutely agree that the first is the best of the films.

[@eadlynjune]

It’s partly because the first movie was directed by this’s woman who’s name I can’t remember who made it more of an indie film. Every film after was directed by some guys when they saw the movies were gonna be big. It lost its individuality.

[@sweetpeabee4983]

@@eadlynjune Melissa Rosenberg! She's really talented; she went on to do the Netflix Jessica Jones series.

[@paigemurphy125]

sweet pea bee Catherine Hardwicke was the director, Melissa wrote the script!!

[@oof-wi7hp]

idk vampire diaries is a very different beast with entirely different.... not themes, but tone, i guess?

[@TransboyEddie]

I literally became a patron because of this video, thanks Big Joel, keep on being big n' Joel

[@rez4998]

Hello fellow transboy glad to know we Stan big joel in solidarity. Im too poor to be a patron tho lmao

[@radhapatel217]

But he is not particularly big, nor particularly Joel

[@ZimmervisionCZ]

And doesn't it say something that we love him anyway.

[@TransboyEddie]

Big and Joel are definitely ephemeral states of being, not quantitative qualities.

[@Sblljcb]

A surprisingly and impressively mature and balanced analysis of this series. You somehow found a way to see it from the perspective of its target audience as well as finding some truly good themes that were hidden under the low dimensional characters and bizarre romance that teenage girls enjoy.

[@kittykitty.bangbang]

Twilight is a good series if you look at it like a tragedy, hear me out: Bella is all the proof we need from this. She's a teenage girl and most of us know that times like that can feel so confusing and weird. Then take into account the fact that it seems like she doesn't really have anything she's passionate about before she meets Edward. It's almost like she's lost in the world. This expresses itself through her interactions with her friends, yea she makes an effort to relate and have fun with them but she feels like she can't connect with them and this makes her feel isolated and lonely. Then this man comes into her life and for once (at least to her) there is someone who takes full interest in her despite what she sees as flaws. She found someone who would be there for her always (again, at least in her mind) and that must be a huge thing for her seeing as she doesn't really have close friends, her mother, though not purposely malicious, doesn't really seem to understand or even recognize her daughter's feeling and she has a pretty strained relationship with her father. This man, the first person in her life to *want* her, then leaves. Now she's right back to that feeling of isolation and loneliness. Yeah she has a friend who tries to get her out of her stupor, but at this point she's become so emotionally attached Edward that she is now unable to make strong connections with other people. She is literally so desperate for his attention and validation that she practically hallucinates a version of him to protect her to subconsciously make up for the fact that now she doesn't have anyone in her life to validate her feelings, which she does by PUTTING HERSELF IN HARMS WAY. All in all, Bella is a depressed young girl that feels like she has no one in her life and when she finally has someone it's ripped away from her and she is alone again. In a weird way, Bella is a very relatable character.

[@kevinwells9751]

You know, I've seen the Twilight movies, and I think they are genuinely pretty bad movies, the acting is frequently bland and unengaging, the writing and editing lead to weird pacing issues and awkward lines, and the effects are frequently hokey and distracting, but I totally agree with you that there are indeed interesting themes and questions about agency and purpose buried within the less than great films. Keep up the good work Big Joel!

[@aturchomicz821]

Twilight atleast isnt Empress Theresa.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJXdhZpviqilatE

[@michalkatec.6841]

Kevin Wells i think the only film that had satisfactory effects was breaking dawn, part one of Breaking Dawn involved a lot of heavy CGI and prosthetics and they did amazing doing it, and the last one just did better at making things loo

[@hannahn3240]

Agreed, the good aspects of the movies were the themes and the story of the books. Film execution wasn’t great.. except for the soundtracks

[@livchamps9573]

i really love Italian Man's skepticism, he seems intelligent and attractive

[@literallygaston2489]

Liv Champs Well, but he’s not entirely fair

Did you nickname my daughter after ThE lOcK nEsS mOnStEr

[@monio.9444]

"Go at it boldly, and you'll find unexpected forces closing round you and coming to your aid." ~ Basil King. Bella is lead by her heart and she goes into everything with courage. Her intuition helps her a lot. I especially loved how brave she was when she immediately decided that she doesn't care what happens to her anymore as long as her baby will get to be born, not even worrying if it will be a monster because she knew she will love the baby unconditionally. She was always working on the premise that she is always ready to die for someone she loves. Edward, in antithesis, is very neurotic, he always worries, absolutely for everything. He is full of guilt. Like when he tells Carlisle in the last movie that he's worried and guilty that everyone will die in battle just because he fell in love with a human. And Carlisle told him that he found his mate and he deserves to be happy. He acts on fear more than on love, he's more cerebral, while Bella is more emotional. Edward is constantly afraid and avoidant.

[@ciaratalbot738]

Twilight is worth it just for Alice.

[@vaishalibhaumik4334]

Yeeeees! Although Leah is a close second for me :)

[@judithmurray8220]

Charlie!!

[@PS-dm1dq]

Carlisle :)

[@uni_meadows]

Twilight is worth it for creating budding lesbians/bisexuals

[@KuR58]

I will always love Rosalie in my heart

[@ViaDiva]

Dammit now I don't feel ashamed for all these moments when I feel like rereading Twilight. The worst (or best) part is that the "getting the best out of hopelessness" feeling is like a 100% right. This is genuinely how I deal with my life issues at the moments - things aren't as good as I'd like, but there's not much I can do about that, so nah I should just enjoy it I guess? I still like to complain a lot (and I mean A LOT), but this feeling of relating to Bella used to make me feel kinda awful. I get it now, lol. Whoa. Thanks a lot, and I am not being sarcastic at all.

[@zizijun9723]

i wanna add that the sparkly vampire thing that everyone HATED SO MUCH is actually a pretty interesting concept and not at all A Silly Thing. vampires have historically been depicted as sexually enticing and attractive -- hell, dracula, father of all vampire stories, had that as a central theme. dracula was WRITTEN as being tempting, someone that draws you in... coincidentally, what we would feel if we saw someone lit glow in the light. twilight's writing is dicey and i dont wanna give it too much credit, but the "this is the face(? i cant remember it well) of a monster" line is pretty interesting from a certain angle. again, the original dracula was all abt temptation, and had a didactic element in it, warning people (esp young girls) to not be lured in by superficial things like physical beauty. so edward telling bella shes looking at a monster seems like an echo of that thing-- that his beautiful appearance doesnt change the monster he perceives himself to be on the inside.

[@muticere]

I like twilight. It’s fine. The books slap I don’t care what anyone says. The movies are fun bad movies.

[@jessm2560]

" I don't think that Italian man is being entirely Fair" 😂😂😂 I don't know why but that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while.👏

[@guytorie]

As someone who has been mostly on the outside of the Twilight phenomenon, it has been very interesting to hear all the differing opinions over the years. This one is especially cool to watch.

[@itspricila]

my 13 year old was obsessed with twilight and still appreciate it