13 Reasons Why: A Beautiful Trainwreck | Big Joel

I talk! About 13 Reasons Why! It is a fun time?
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[@BigJoel]

Hey there. My video, like the show itself, has some talk of sexual assault and suicide. That said, I show none of the scenes where those things take place. Also! Thank you for 50k subs!!

[@TheAsyouwysh]

Big Joel you might want to pin this so people see iy

[@BigJoel]

Whoops I thought i had! Sorry abt that haha

[@JohnSmith-pi3ls]

More like, let's say this is a beautiful trainwreck when it's just a trainwreck period.

[@tt5614]

13 reasons why is shit.

[@887frodo]

In 20:32, I think you were referring to plot contrivances, albeit weird ones due to the backward chronological framing of the story.

[@bbymatchalatte]

I probably wouldn't hate this show as much as I do if hadn't been advertised as a ground breaking portrayal of mental illness and suicide, when it just, isn't.

[@resplndnt]

I think there are much better vehicles for portrayal of suicide and trauma in media. Like ordinary people or girl, interrupted

[@c_12123]

god thank you you summed it up perfectly

[@HeroDark98]

While I appreciate this alternate perspective, it feels like trying to rectify or excuse the show's overall poisonous nature. One of my best friends committed suicide, I've been morbidly depressed for over 3 years. I have never detested anything as much as 13 Reasons Why. The writers treat suicide and depression as a tagline and a shock factor [changing Hannah's suicide from pill swallowing to gory slicing proves this even more]. The way they portray suicide is insulting. Just as an example, the whole idea of Hannah appearing to the main character is insulting. We all wish we could see our loved ones one more time, but the reality is that we can't... they're gone, forever. Meanwhile, Hannah leaves behind all these tapes, appears in the second season again and again, her presence is constantly felt like she's a fucking ghost. It's almost like her suicide wasn't even that serious... like she isn't even dead. She's there all the time, she has as much screen time as all the alive characters for fuck's sake.

[@icantthinkofaname1009]

I would honestly be more lenient on how poorly the show depicted suicide if the showrunners basically just admitted they were using it as a plot device. But it’s the way that they advertise it like it’s a PSA that gets to me. They take every opportunity to pat themselves on the back for making a show that’s “brave” and “important”, but that simply isn’t true. If you just wanna use a graphic suicide to spice up your contrived high school drama then I’m not gonna into that idea, but at least just be honest about it. Making it out to be something more important than it is because that angle will attract more viewers is just exceptionally scummy to me and it intentionally leaves viewers thinking they’ve learned something while being horribly misinformed.

[@miz_zuri5327]

Hannah only appears to clay and it wasnt a her suicide wasnt serious it was thata her suicide took a tole to clay and he had to learn to accepte her death and how he struggles doing that like makeing a ghost hannah to help him cope with her suicide

[@KookiesNolly]

Marc Shanahan also, I heard in a video by the ATZ show that Netflix had asked a psychologist to evaluate the show before its release, he said many things were wrong about it and that they should make a lot of changes in their portrayal of mental illness but they refused. In their « behind the reasons » special they even had an expert on mass shootings telling them that the way Jay (I think that’s his name) tried to deal with it is absolutely wrong, people shouldn’t try to confront the shooter. Yet he’s portrayed in a heroic way that might influence some teenagers to emulate him. The problem that I have with this is how woke it’s trying to be. It was clearly created with the intent to « start a conversation » and be honest about « mental illness » yet the people who made it aren’t curious at all about those subjects. They are just woke, vapid and self-absorb. They could have made this an interesting show while at the same time not sending erroneous messages to their young impressionable audience. Funnily enough, all of its defenders claim the shown is not to blame for the problems it causes. A show that is centered around a character that makes everyone else responsible of her problems refuses to be responsible of anything. Wokism at its finest.

[@HeroDark98]

Eli N.S Yeah, I saw that video too. 13 Reasons Why is a can of worms, but Netflix is the one that opened and served it.

[@blondbraid7986]

I haven't seen the show, but I've gotten the impression that 13 reasons why is basically a spiritual successor to The Sorrows of Young Werther... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther

[@placeholder9462]

Hannah: Perfect song right? Clay: * chuckles * yeah Big Joel: SO RELATABLE THATS TOTALLY ME AS A TEENAGER *THAT.* *IS.* *ME.*

[@asteroidalassassin6949]

Lmao

[@jseden]

This show was two seasons of r/im14andthisisdeep

[@Julianna.Domina]

The only necessary commentary on 13RW

[@Bringon-dw8dx]

That’s kinda the point... it’s based on a young adult novel 😂

[@CanelaAguila]

And that's okay, because everyone has to be 14 once to get to maturity

[@procopias7571]

I couldn't help to compare 13ry to the anime/manga "Orange". It also talks of teen depression and suicide and how our actions can affect the people around us, but not in the "I killed myself and you people are to blame" way. Instead, the main character receives a series of letters from her adult self telling her about a new boy that she and her friends will befriend and instructions of how to "prevent" his suicide in the months to come. Instead of IT'S YOUR FAULT BECAUSE YOU WERE AWFUL TO HIM, it follows the way of "how you can make it better for him", "be more present in that moment", "pay attention to the details we didn't", stuff like that. They don't cure his depression, but their actions, and how they call him out on certain things, help him to make other choices. For me, it was a much more sensitive aproach to the themes than the gaudy way they handled it in 13ry.

[@Robstafarian]

Thanks, I will check it out.

[@Isabel-zt7mw]

this is from ages ago but I LOVE ORANGE SO MUCH and I never see it talked about, so it's cool to see it mentioned here!

[@klop4228]

Never seen this show, but it sounds really nice. Also, your explanation gives me Vincent and the Doctor vibes (that one episode of Doctor Who with Vincent van Gogh). It's an episode that mostly went over my head when I was 10 and watching it for the first time, but hits really hard nowadays, even though I'm lucky enough not to be suicidal.

[@LauraCrone]

So I'll be honest, I would have liked to hear at least a passing mention of the controversy over this show's allegedly irresponsible portrayals of mental illness and suicide (I say "allegedly" not to discredit those criticisms but because, as a person who has psychological triggers associated with portrayals of suicide, I've read those criticisms and determined that this is a show I need to skip for my own mental health, and so I can't speak firsthand to their accuracy). Those criticisms have been so front and center to this show's place in the cultural consciousness that not giving them at least a moment of acknowledgement is hard to do without it feeling pointed. But more than that, I think your argument here actually has something to say to this show's attitude about suicide. The whole premise is that there are thirteen reasons why she killed herself, and that she can calmly, rationally explain what they are, and that after her death, the reason for her suicide is a mystery that can be solved. And there's an extent to which that makes her an *inherently* unreliable narrator, and makes sure that everyone reading the "text" of her life in the context of her death is reading in a self-serving way. Everyone mourning the suicide of a person they knew is like Hannah's mother, weeping into a poem, saying that now it's so clear, they should have seen, if they had just understood this one thing, they could have saved their child. In the wake of a suicide, we're all desperate for a clean story written by a reliable narrator, but we're never going to get it. Your analysis would suggest that the show is *this close* to making that point about itself.

[@BigJoel]

Yeah haha I agree, there is st a tad uncomf in not talking at all abt the suicide. The problem is that I’d be forced to come to the conclusion that the show’s arguably unethical depiction of suicide is “brilliant” and “interesting.” Idk it just felt like I’d be guilty of the same thing ppl accuse the show of: using suicide as a prop. That said, I think your read there is v close to what mine would have been. What if we position suicide within this show as a text? In the first season, it constantly impresses on us it’s rationality and determined nature. It is an act performed by Hannah and she’s reasonable when performs it. In the second season, the relationship between Hannah, the rational thinking person, and her own suicide comes under fire. I think it’s some really cool junk, maybe I’ll plop it in the sequel to this I’ll prob never make

[@LauraCrone]

Oh yeah, even if you take the very tenuous position that that's an intentional piece of theming, it's still a massively irresponsible way to get that message across. Maybe we're in for a season 3 that makes this read explicit and is all about how when you write a mystery about figuring out why a person killed herself, it cannot possibly have a satisfying conclusion and you were silly for watching this show in the first place! Hooh boy, I can't wait!

[@BigJoel]

Ok, I just had a few more thoughts on my not talking about the suicide haha. I don't think I'm quite as convinced as the average person that the show did something wrong in portraying suicide in the way it did? Like, I was talking to my therapist and she was like, "I have a lot of teenage clients, and that show has opened up a lot of really valuable dialogues with them and it clearly resonated with them." And after having that conversation, I started thinking that maybe there's something really cool abt the way suicide works in this show. Maybe it isn't a realistic depiction of what suicide is or how it works,, but maybe it manages to capture the FEELING of what it's like to be a chronically depressed teen. In my experience at least, sadness always feels like it comes from a rational place, like it has some origin in the outside world even when I know on some level that that's not true. And the show, it kinda captures that? And considering all that, I felt like I couldn't make an informed opinion about suicide in this show. I'm not a mental health professional and I really don't know about any of this stuff! Idk, I think that's the real reason why I didn't talk about suicide, tho maybe that's a bit of a copout lol.

[@sinachiniforoosh]

I think a major reason why the show sparked a conversation is that many people were outraged by its portrayal of suicide, so it's a weird roundabout kind of "success".

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

jesus laura art is subjective and open to interpretation, thats storytelling 101. if you think the stuff about suicide and mental health is more important then more power to you but dont go taking it out on others accusing them of being irresponsible.

[@SamyTheBookWorm]

I wish we could talk about the fact that depression is not the only reason people kill themselves. 13 Reasons Why is bad at portraying depression because it is not and never was about depression or mental health problems of any kind. Nowhere in the show does Hannah ever display any of the symptoms of depression, nor does she ever imply in any way that she feels depressed, and in her extensive explanation of why she killed herself she never once talks about or describes feeling depressed, but she does go into explicit detail to describe the incessant bullying and assault she endured by classmates that all at one point decided to put her down, or harm her physically or emotionally for their own gain or to save their own reputations. The reading that this show is about suicide and depression is and has always been a misreading. Everything about the text sugguests that this is a story about bullying, not about internal mental struggles. People with depression don't need to be bullied in order to be suicidal. I know a lot of suicidal people who are surrounded by friends and family who actively love them. Depression has very little to do with how other people see you, and everything to do with how someone sees themselves. Hannah's whole problem started because of the way other people insisted in seeing her and treating her as a result. This show is about Bullying, NOT MENTAL HEALTH.

[@mnschoen]

You don't think suicide has something to do with mental health? Yes, perfectly mentally healthy people kill themselves all time! There's a chapter in your fifth-grade biology text titled "Sometimes People Kill Themselves And No One Knows Why!" You don't think depression might have something to do with bullying? Bullying is just a thing that happens, depression doesn't ensue, and then the bullied person just...kills themselves?

[@megankelley1105]

@@mnschoen I think what NotSoGoth is trying to convey is that the suicide in question is a result of bullying and abuse and isolation, and people that are otherwise not mentally ill can commit suicide because of trauma and abuse. Their depression and anxiety that lead to their suicide is based on external factors, not internal. Also, perfectly mentally healthy people have killed themselves. For example, during World War II, there were Jewish women that, instead of letting the Nazis take them and their children off to a concentration camp where they would face horrific, inhumane treatment and cruel and unusual death, they instead poisoned themselves and their children to escape the Holocaust.That's a rather extreme example, but you get my point. If you're curious, here's a link debunking some common myths about suicide and suicidal ideation: www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/September-2020/5-Common-Myths-About-Suicide-Debunked

[@danopticon]

@SamyTheBookWorm - Hear hear!!

[@mothcub]

I feel like this show could've done something really interesting with showing us that Hannah's representation of things was false in various ways, but then I also think one of its strengths is in how it slowly reveals her stories, so I think it plays with that kinda effectively in that way. I especially like when we see Clay imagining different fantasy scenarios and then it shows us the real ones. I'm a sucker for simultaneous alternate scenarios.

[@geckgeck8616]

Exactly, about 90% of suicide is linked to mental illness or substance abuse. Not only would it have been safer and more accurate to focus on her own mental instability that led to the act, it would've been much more interesting!

[@tiryaclearsong421]

In a lot of ways the book did better at that. Clay was much more suspect in the book than the show.

[@Hellooo134]

I mean if it was going for realism she probably wouldve been more inaccurate. Most depressed people I know tend to misinterpret or change in their minds peoples actions, not because of a moral failing because thats kinda what depression does. It takes the mundane or minorly problematic and makes it worse.

[@beccak8166]

I actually though one of the strengths of the show was revealing that Hannah was a reliable narrator all along as the show progressed, despite being doubted, but then it didn't go anywhere with that sort of anti-twist. I thought it was gonna be a comment on believing victims, and women, and how we often pathologize, disrespect and question their narratives. I was confused when it never culminated into a real point. It feels like it was just a sitcomy injection of drama that really makes no sense in the broader story, which is a shame because it could have been so easily made into a larger part of the story. That by doubting Hannah's experience, we are all complicit in her spiral downward. But it's just sort of a... nothing.

[@leslienope]

When he said "You don't find the clubhouse" I half expected the next line to be "The clubhouse finds you."

[@srfrancium9728]

I don't know how I can watch Big Joel relay positive things about reality TV and be like "Yeah, alright" but then hear him talk about 13 reasons why and feel all of my bones in my body break at once.

[@blane2472]

Just today there was an article discussing how teen suicides in my country had doubled since 13 reasons why became available here. It wasn't blaming just the show, but it said ignoring it would also be foolish. Doubled. In a country that is always ranked as 'one of the happiest.' As others have pointed out, this show is basically a how-not-to when it comes to using suicide in your stories. And much as I'm like 'you can like what you like', I just can't forgive that really. Hearing how my best friend's little sister and her friend group romanticise suicide (and how many have gone through with it!), is terrifying. So I can't justify any show that either through incompetence or indifference decides to ignore all the guidelines about how to prevent more suicides.

[@chupakabra337]

Where are you from?

[@funstuff81girl]

Zane Totally agree, ummm, what country are you in?

[@yonatanbeer3475]

It doesn't glorify suicide. What makes you say that?

[@gasaiyuno6021]

A mother fucking TV SHOW isn't going to legitimately affect people's mental health and make them want to kill themselves. No one blamed Naruto when an 8 year old buried his head underneath a sandbox to attempt to be like Gaara, yet you all want to fucking harpoon 13 Reasons why. A DIRECT CAUSE AND AFFECT between the show and a child's death, yet no one bats an eye. Something so complex as suicide and the reasons for doing so that couldn't possibly be linked to one specific reason, especially not a show, and everyone blames the show. Morons.

[@Redheart709]

@@gasaiyuno6021 Hi im morons and im here to tell you that i completely and utterly disagree with you. Naruto doesn't ever try to present itself as realistic. It's an animated cartoon, for god's sake. Do you really think the showrunners could've possibly thought about that specific incident as they were animating it? No. Of course not. However, in comes 13 Reasons Why, which very well could've predicted any incidents involving the show. Because that is literally what the show is based around. They consulted psychiatrists around this. There's fucking guidelines for how to portray suicide in shows, and 13RW ignored them. "It's not going to legitimately affect people's mental health and make them want to kill themselves." Actually yeah it could. For someone with depression, the way suicide is treated on the show is a means of revenge. It tells you that everyone will care about you when you commit suicide. That you'll be important. Which *isn't a good message btw and should've never been included*. It could've very well inspired copycat incidents of people slitting their wrists because they wanted to die and 13RW gave them a way to do so. Something which is absolutely preventable, because they had multiple people telling them that they shouldn't fucking do that, and that there are better ways to show suicide that aren't glorifying it. People blame the show because it deserves to be blamed. There's no good reason for it being the way it was, other than that the writers wanted to tell a dramatic suicide story without caring about how to safely handle that kind of story.

[@JacobGeller]

This channel has no business being this smart while talking about these topics. Good work, begrudgingly.

[@cameronarato5117]

Holy shit I found a comment from one of my favorite youtubers before he was big on one of my other favorite youtubers videos

[@wob6169]

funny reading this now

[@abartel6]

big jacob

[@sunbleachedangel]

oh hi Jacob

[@Alejandro-te2nt]

i kinda want to believe there was this whole authorship subtext but I just thought it was a dumb netflix show about attractive young people being melodramatic and hypersexual teenagers because that will get lots of streams

[@ussishkingang7194]

Gigi but as he said in the video She is a “reliable narrator” in the show That’s the problem

[@DemiBirdDoes]

Joel expects the best of us and we fail him.

[@ManiacalViolet]

@@timotheatae all of the culture in the English speaking world that I have lived 35 years of my life inside hypersexualizes teenagers to the point of pedophilia. Grown women are seen as used up and not valued because only teenagers are seen as sexy. I have lost multiple partners to addictions to teen porn. It breaks my heart, for everyone involved.

[@literallygaston2489]

Vashti Malkuth While this is a serious issue, you’re confusing sexual with sexualised. Majority of teens are sexual and there’s nothing wrong with depicting it. Sexualisation and objectification is the problem, because it creates an idea that teens are and should be desired, when in reality teens are awkward and inexperienced and no mature adult would find it sexy unless they’re into creepy noncon power dynamics(like Onision).

[@weasel7491]

@shel i wondered that. The first season may have inadvertently showcased themes the book explored but then completely missed the point

[@Punkmuffin333]

First of all, "Sponsor me, I guess" should be on a T-Shirt. Second of all, this captures my feelings about 13 Reasons Why perfectly. The second season tried to recreate the frame that the tapes created for the show, but it often doen't work or just doesn't make sense. One last thing, you're videos are so calming to me. Thanks.

[@ThatPazuzu]

I'd love for Big Joel's return to 13 Reasons Why. You know, after the rapist apology season and the fight club season

[@babylonisfalling8145]

I think my biggest problem is the fact it continued after series one. Yes, I understand there were unanswered questions, stories that still need to be shown and just the fact that it was too successful not to renew. However the thing about Stories that involve mystery - or more specifically that which revolve around a dead girl etc (as per the trope) - the reason why shows like Twin Peaks, Forbrydelsen/it's English counterparts work is because they leave a sense of enigma, and I think the unreliable narrator aspect of 13rw is what added to that enigma. The more we see of her, the less of a mystery she is and the sense of 'loss' is dampened. Whatever I guess.

[@klop4228]

*cough* Steins;Gate *cough*

[@augiespendley3389]

You're trying to see ten feet deep into a six inch puddle dude.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

death of the author applies, shallow intent dosent matter if what you take away from it is deep

[@robynhoodie]

That's basically this channel in a nut shell. Its what makes it interesting.

[@100billionsubscriberswithn4]

Welcome to Big Joel, how long will you be staying?

[@LonkinPork]

I mean, did you even watch Joel's video on The Lorax?

[@Kim-Pat]

Looking ten feet deep into a six inch puddle seems to be exactly what the show was about

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

I gotta give you credit, man. I could never talk about a show this bad for this long. You almost make it sound interesting.

[@ZGGuesswho]

You should do a video about how the continued existence of the sophisticated nerd dude video essay format forces creators to slowly turn into a warm take factory for release consistency, slowly overmining things till the reputation of the format and the faith of the author come into question.

[@BigJoel]

Oh shit, shots fired haha

[@ZGGuesswho]

sorry, i truly do like you mr joel

[@wrathisme4693]

I very much disagree with your reading of this show. I am pleased to see someone try and ring something positive from a show like this, but I think you've failed to touch on a greater truth here. I definitely do not think it was intended, but following death of the author I also think the text of the show does not support the deeper meaning you have read into it here. Ultimately I feel like this show was entirely concept based, where they had an idea and just ran with it without the skill to delve into or otherwise explore any kind of mature theme or concept beyond the initial concept. I see the whole show as a few people throwing ideas around a writers room and then made it into a netflix property. It seems like a lot of netflix has the same problem. I also disagree with what I'm sure was an intentional choice to not address the problematic ways the show depicts suicide. I do not feel like it's appropriate to disregard this issue as both a textual analysis of the show and as a discussion of the way media portrays suicide

[@ccash.90]

13 Reasons Why implies that there are 13 reasons why I should care that she killed herself. Why should I care about the main character when she's already dead? Her story is over. Get over it. lol Maybe a movie based on something like this concept could work, like Wrist Cutters was a good movie. But a fucking TV show? with multiple episodes? Seasons? Fuck that. lol

[@anonymouswombat241]

It feels like you may have misunderstood the purpose of this video. The argument here isn't that the writers were attempting to make some grand statement about art and our relationship to it, but that the show does say something about it, regardless of whether or not it was intentional. And this wasn't a review of the show as a whole, just a presentation of one interpretation. The show's depiction of suicide just isn't relevant to the discussion.

[@Shnurbinator]

I completely agree with your second point, but I understand why Joel didn't say anything about it. The depiction of suicide in the show is the reason many have talked about it, and has been discussed in great lengths. By not talking about it, Joel shows a different side of the show. As a critique in a vacuum, it's a bit inappropriate to not bring up the topic in the essay. As a critique in a wider mosaic, I think it's fine for him not to bring it up.

[@KeithBallardA]

Talking about the depictions of suicide would make the video rather incoherent. This isn't a comprehensive review or a critique, but a video essay making a very specific point about how a show handles authorship. It's like complaining that a video about cinematography doesn't mention how the movie fails the Bechdel Test. Discussing anything besides authorship would only be a sidebar, a distraction that detracts from the thesis. Then you also have the additional potential problem, where the video maker may not be experienced with or have an informed opinion on such topics as suicide and depression, and ends up saying something problematic, spreading misinformation, or at best simply having nothing meaningful to contribute. I enjoyed Get Out and felt that it must have been touching on some genuine truths, but as a white man I'm not going to go great lengths to spread my flimsy take on it when there are so many reviews and podcasts from black people out there that have had much more meaningful discussions on the subject due to their closeness to it. It's just kind of pointless to stretch yourself into forcing an opinion on something that doesn't share the same meaning as you. The outcome is at best a non-contribution that repeats the echo chamber so that listeners can check off a box of "yes he talked about that thing he has to talk about." At worst it's a wildly offensive misstep by someone who doesn't have sufficient perspective to draw from on a subject that has a very real impact on other people.

[@wrathisme4693]

Cheyenne lol just don't engage with someone who things rape isn't a systemic problem, you are not going to change their mind

[@vishishify]

I agree with you that on a technical level the show is mostly well made. But, the writing feels like it was written by 40 year olds pretending to be teenagers. My main problem with the show is the superficial broadstroke manner that the show deals with depression and suicide.

[@gaphic]

Interesting analysis, but I think it’s over-lenient and even irresponsible to talk about 13rw as if it’s not what it explicitly is: a glorified PSA about the dangers of bullying. Everything else is tertiary at most. It’s actively dangerous to the audience it declares itself to be protecting, and it’s not even well written in the process. I know it’s kind of your thing to synecdoche minor or background elements and analyze them as if they make up the whole, but when the actual whole is as exploitative and horrific as 13rw I can’t really look at that in good faith.

[@taekwondodude8]

Chase Tona very well put.

[@yagirl3612]

I’m pretty sure he was trying to do this objectively as to not cause controversy or backlash on his video.

[@80ki68]

Today I learned the word 'synecdoche'. *N I C E*

[@kropotkinnie]

I'm sure this is a great video, and I love your work, but I can't bring myself to watch it. As a depressed person with suicide attempts, this show feels like a spit in my face, and it feels like exploitation of depressed people that doesn't even get right what it's like to be depressed. I know this video would trigger me badly, as hearing praise for this show stresses me deeply due to how it fuels creators to make more content like this. But I wanted to comment this because, while it likely doesn't matter to anyone reading it, I really love your content and I'm positively sure that while I may disagree with it this video is fantastically made. Just can't watch this one, so I'll watch two others to make up for it, lol. Kudos.

[@linksey]

I want to make a comment here, especially where you say "it feels like exploitation of depressed people that doesn't even get right what it's like to be depressed". I think it did in some ways. I've been struggling with depression for 11 years now, and even though it didn't happen b/c of what happened to Hannah, Hannah's reasons are very plausible to lead up to depression. She was exploited by a crush, betrayed by friends, sexually harassed, and raped. Being a psychology graduate, I can assure you that events like these will leave someone emotionally dead. I've been bullied and betrayed and physically harassed, and after all that, I tried to kill myself. To this day I still think of ending my life. Hannah felt empty and hopeless, like no one cared and no one was reaching out to help.....that's usually how depression goes, or at least that's how my diagnosed depression feels. I'm empty. Like nothing matters. But yeah, it wasn't a perfect portrayal, but it wasn't completely wrong like you say.

[@MochaLatta]

I agree. Although people go through depression in different ways. This is at end of the day, a story. Its not even based on real events. They want to shed light on the impact of suicide. You don't have to be a pyschologist to know that this will/might be emotionally impactful on people (hell, they even have a warning before you start watching it). If a show is going to talk about serious issues such as suicide, they need to treat it as such. That's all I'm going to say.

[@Gr3ypsTFT]

Well Joel read it and I'm sure it mattered to him. You make a good point. I'll try to avoid 13rw content from now on. Hope some other people realise this too.

[@iqtidarrahman2148]

Not really a criticism but I think that the show misses the mental illness part of depression. I mean of course many cases suicide is linked to bullying and traumatic experiences but an underlying depression is always present. I feel that the show did not Actually scrap it

[@iqtidarrahman2148]

Sure, I understand what you mean. I get you for the most part, except you said that underlying depression is not always present. In your example depression was present but undiagnosed. Even if undiagnosed it still is depression. My criticism was pretty stupid I agree. I don't really have a problem with how 13 reasons portrayed Hannah's subtle, inconspicuous depression.

[@theebronks]

To be honest I am fairly certain your analysis is thought out than the show. Not to say your points aren't valid but I don't believe the intention was there on their part.

[@thirteenfury]

The second season sounds to me like it's trying to be "Life Is Strange" and "Skins" all at once. That is, a collection of tapes, photos, and flashbacks about a tragic event from an unreliable narrator yet at the same time portraying a story arc for everyone in the core group of friends. Even the atmosphere of the show resembles a mashup of the abovementioned series.

[@noname-rj7dx]

Nice video. Unfortunately I can't like it because that would make me complicit in getting the word about this show further out there on social media, a show that has harmed the very audience it is (allegedly ) trying to protect by romanticing suicide in order to make money. I just don't want to be responsible for any harm this show causes to the mental health of young people.

[@anonymouswombat241]

You were complicit in getting the word out there just by adding a view to this video

[@HardStickman]

You guys are crazy. The show is not intended to adress teenagers who are sucidal, it's meant as a message towards people who contribute to their sucidal feeling. It's not adressing suicide itself and how to deal with it when you're depressed, it's about what can lead someone to commit suicide, that's why it's called 13 reasons why. It's a show that aims to make you understand why someone would want to kill himself. Of course you're not gonna show it to someone suicidal. But the goal is for people around them to see the show so that it can create a discussion about how to deal with this. Understanding factors at play is an important part of the process. You can't just prevent people from understanding because it would "romanticize" suicide.

[@noname-rj7dx]

Anonymous Wombat I know. I thought twice about clicking it. I did click because there was a possibility that Big Joel was going to point out where this show is problematic. If it was critical would happily support the video.

[@literallygaston2489]

noname You know that Big Joel literally never says “thing bad/good” in his video essays, it’s not his thing. And so many people already covered 13 reasons why from the angle of it’s harmfulness that there’s really no reason to do more.

[@finnh.krannich2431]

Big Joel!!! You always manage to make me so interested in things I’ve already decided to dislike or dismiss. Thanks for finding meaning and interest in almost everything. Your videos are such a pleasure to watch.

[@Pajamacat20]

In my opinion; you're giving the show way too much credit. I'm sure the book had more suttle and clever ideas that sortta bleed through to the show. If the show wanted us to think about the role of a reader, I think they would have made a lot more referances to this theme. This is not really a smart show, it is not suttle in its messages. Which is also why the second season feels so different, cause it wasn't written by the same person. But otherwise, interesting perspective.

[@jeonghansupremacist4354]

i know im 3 years late but the book is really not that deep also. its basically just a "be nice to those around you" psa with a gimmick

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

"on the whole I had a very positive experience with the show" BOOOOOOOO I'M HERE FOR YOU TO SHIT ON THE SHOW

[@yames3991]

Even though the episode with Zach and Hannah relationship is arguably the best episode of season 2 but did it bother anyone else about this relationship they had *not* being brought up in her season 1 tapes. How are you gonna say on the tapes the time he just threw out your not _but not_ the summer relationship that you had with him. (Don't get me started with the cheap way they wrote it off with "Well some things shouldn't be said" or whatever she said)

[@hambone.fakenamington]

Did you even watch the video? Or did you just check out for the part where he talks about that?

[@yames3991]

I watched the video I'm just saying it still just rubs me the wrong way

[@camillastimemachine]

Yeah I also kind of felt like the fact that he didn’t want to claim her as his gf high key trumps the compliment bag thing. The story fit in with the show, but the fact that she didn’t mention it showed some sloppy writing.

[@elesnobmoreliano2943]

She didn't mention it because that would have ruined more her reputation.

[@inalovelydream1438]

I hated the episode with Zach and Hannah. It’s the only one in season 2 that didn’t make any sense to me. It contradicted Hannah’s tape about Zach, and it made no sense she would choose that one instance of him throwing away the letter to put on his tape, rather than the fact that he never fought for her or stood up for her and let her walk away after their love affair. Also it completely took away the weight of Hannah and Clay’s budding relationship. I found the episode where they took molly to be more believable because Clay was deeply insecure and afraid of losing her friendship if she didn’t reciprocate so he didn’t make a move.

[@lisah8438]

If you were paying attention to season one it was clearly stated and obvious that Zach had a crush on Hannah. Are people forgetting that part?

[@keeKeeConnolly]

"A Beautiful Trainwreck" is a fantastic romance book title.

[@danielwebb5605]

I am 100 percent convinced that the friendship story of hanna and Bryce was a total lie made up by Bryce for the court case

[@stephanieb366]

This is the only show I can think of that I've ever hate watched. I literally would get angry the whole time, but I still watched all of it. I think your analysis really gets at why that is. There is something really fascinating about the attempts (and failures) at trying to tackle such serious issues. And it's not a complete cinematic failure, they did really well with a lot of the technical aspects. They just bit off more than they could chew, I think, and have been completely unapologetic about that. It's quite offensive, but really very interesting.

[@prodewan]

Ye i dont want to watch season 3 but i feel as if i have to

[@Hanfgurkenhasser]

Had to stop like 5 episodes in. So much teenie melodrama with no real substance, illogical decisions (teenagers amirite?), stupid unlikeable characters...there was nothing to like. I could not take Hannah's suicide seriously whatsoever and the characters all feel like archetypes instead of human beings. Just pissed me off and made me wonder why people loved it so much.

[@Carelessnoot]

I absolutely agree with this. If there's one thing that I hate as a TV viewer, it's seeing on the content of a later season that the writers' room was baffled by the mere idea of another season. While here it makes sense because the first season was based on a book, if there was more forethought to it, maybe things would have been better, added up better, made more sense, and were less for the sake of shock value as it were with the second season. Season one ended with several mysteries that were completely untouched on season two, which makes you see how disconnect the writing was for season two from the first. Really shameful, because the subject matter has a lot of room to grow. Shame it was done that way.

[@justfrankjustdank2538]

this video in how you described this show inspired me to write a script for a short film thank you

[@ToyKnives]

I’m so confused that you think that bad writing is somehow an intellectual exercise in objectivity. It’s like analyzing random numbers for a pattern.

[@sploogecarp814]

It's nice to see someone who doesn't the same copy and paste review. Even if I don't like the show at least I could hear why some people would.

[@cubecaptain5777]

This was a really refreshing look at Thirteen Reasons Why; especially in comparison to all of the other reviews/analysis's, which essentially ramble on about how obviously terrible Thirteen Reasons Why is. And keep in mind I completely agree with the other reviews, but this analysis was kinda brilliant in uncovering the accidental genius of Thirteen Reasons Why. Like what other people have said, I think the show would've massively benefitted with Hannah being an intentional unreliable narrator, as it would generally create a more interesting show, and moreover would highlight the distorted conscious of someone about to kill themselves (instead of glorifying suicide). A really great video, not a lot of videos make me think as much as yours!

[@natelandherr5202]

This is my favorite unintentionally funny series

[@shaedbear]

As a mentally ill teenager who was forced to read the book and watch this show in school and by friends respectively, brushing over the disgusting way the show portrays and honestly glorifies suicide to an audience of teenagers to make up some perspective that isn't even really supported by the show itself is irresponsible at best and actively disrespectful at worst.

[@Bringon-dw8dx]

I didn’t think the book glorified suicide- I just felt it represented how a lot of teenagers see the world. From an adult perspective yes it does glorify suicide because who on earth acts like Hannah- but at the time I read the book that’s exactly how a lot of people did act. Everything was hightened, everything was either amazing or felt like death with no inbetween.

[@watcherwlc53]

I never saw the show, but I read the book about 10 years ago or so and appreciated it. I think the reason there were cassette tapes in the story, was that the author started writing the story many years before publishing it and for some reasons the publisher wanted to place it in contemporary times so they had to come up with a convoluted reasons why she used older technology.

[@CrossKnights]

I really enjoy your Channel. I've watched the number of video essays about the show despite not having seen it and a lot of them were quite similar in their approach. You focused on completely different aspects then everyone else which I appreciate.

[@Andrematt]

dude, you are the best thing on my youtube right now. this one blew my mind. i was going to sugest a theme, but please, just keep doing you.

[@Val-oo9pk]

Never seen this show and have no interest in seeing the show, but I'm always listening with eyes glued to the screen when you have these videos. Thank you! Love your delivery, it makes material easily understood and not 100 miles per hour.

[@kilibubblecata6266]

The beautifully correct employment of the word 'literally' is so refreshing and perfect that I would have liked the video purely on that merit alone.

[@theoh2282]

**Coughs** *Welcome to your tape*

[@DreamerHeadquarters]

YOOO I was obsessed w this book when it first came out! I was eleven and I met the author jay Asher. He told me he was inspired to write it after his niece attempted suicide. Years later, I realized that the book was extremely harmful to me and actually encouraged death as the only alternative in my mentally ill mind. I’m happy that I have learned how to see the story through Hannahs perspective instead of jay ashers :)

[@moriahmars1462]

i found season one ok but season two had really inconsistent camera work and dialogue. though season one wasnt that good in its execution(character-wise) of an already bland story, when season two falls short with all plot, characters and even cinematography, it gets real bad. the best parts of season two arent even really good.

[@ejm51395]

As someone who was bullied and has suffered from anxiety and depression... I found the first season of the show very cathartic. Now obviously this is just my personal experience and everyone is allowed to take from it what they want and have their own opinion. Like this video said the criticisms are valid and while I did enjoy all four seasons the last three didn't have the same impact. I saw a lot of myself in Hannah, not just physically but her sense of isolation and loneliness. The biggest difference was I was a lot younger than Hannah (my bullying occurred in elementary in middle school) and I have gotten help in part because of this show. It was a small part of what was a long processes to accepting I needed help but it did help open my eyes to my understanding that I'm not okay and it's okay to need help (something I still struggle with). Now while I enjoy the last three seasons the show did definitely go off the rails and really should have ended after the first or second season at the most. I admire the show for taking on topics like sexual assault, bullying, depression and alcoholism among other things so brutally... but as I said the criticisms are valid and there were things they could have done better or handled better... like not turning it into a strange soap opera instead of what could have been a powerful story about bullying and how easy a person can be destroyed.

[@skunkjo3195]

Wow, baby Joel ❤️ I love the comment thanking us for 50k subs. He wasn't big Joel yet

[@glorificusbarryhex]

I see this video essay working really well within a high school unit discussing the book. We have countless videos dedicated to its depiction of sexual assault, trauma, and suicide. This is the first one I've come across that that looks into how the show functions as a show without ignoring the controversy that surrounds it.

[@funnyjewguy]

In my opinion 13 Reasons why pitches suicide as a car accident: responsibility rests on both sides for taking actions that lead to a collision. Maybe one side is only culpable for making the decision to drive that day, and maybe both parties share equally in responsibility. In reality, however, suicide is like a road rage accident. If someone speeds by you on the freeway, cuts you off while flipping you the bird, and you decide to pursue that car leading to a wreck it was your fault alone for deciding to act based on your emotions. This show sets a dangerous precedent by placing a false inevitability on acting through one's pathos as opposed to one's logos. Each person has the power to choose how their feelings form into actions, and this show not only ignored backlash with a specious warning but continues to put young impressionable people at risk with its flippant morality.

[@SageGarlandSingerSongwriter]

To everyone saying they wished he focused more on the main controversial issues of the show: The fact that you already know is the reason he didn't.

[@AaronAfshar]

Soooooooooo glad to know that someone shares my opinions on this show. Loved the video. liked and subbed

[@tristanfoss7469]

A beautiful trainwreck described when something horrible happens yet you can't look away from it.

[@sophiazaynor2089]

I never really thought that a work's flaws could help reveal theme and meaning but that's a really interesting idea. Keep up the good work Big Joel

[@cottoncandy113]

I've seen like 10 video essays talking about this show. Even so, I can't say I'm excited enough to hear the bigjoels opinions.

[@adamnorton4756]

I thought you would mention after that line "you haven't finished the tapes, I finished them in one night" that the show was commenting on how we now consume media/read the text quickly so that we are all up to date. I thought throughout the writers were commenting on how we consume media and discredit it if it does not align with our view or credit it for speaking truth when it does align with our view. The one thing I would say about season 2 is that it contradicts the way we understood the story which makes the audience frustrated. Season 1 the text created by Hannah was a text within the story (it could have a reliable narrator or not). When we watch season 2 we dont have the framing device of the tapes or a clear indication of who the author is (other than the show itself) so people are more likely to focus on plot holes as the story we are being "shown" as true in the "real world" may also be false so people suggest inconsistencies and plot holes. I would have enjoyed if the court case was the device better used for unreliable narration as it would have said something on the truth vs what a court is allowed to determine/accept as truth... but then again I am a lawyer so I am biased as to what is interesting.

[@totlyepic]

This is the most generous reading of a disaster sequel I've ever encountered, but I'm here for it, bud.

[@MylingCyrus]

I watched season 1 once. And that was more than enough for me. They completely ignored what mental health professionals said is ok and not to put on tv. Like romanticising her suicide. It's just too far. Too much. Some scenes are too triggering for me I'll never watch it again

[@blakephillips8118]

You always say hey guys but nobody says hey back so... hey big joel

[@jaylaw2777]

Well done!!! They filmed a lot of this show in my hometown Vallejo Ca and i believe they started shooting season 3 because some of the actors has been spotted around town!

[@branuhlig8476]

Great work as usual BJ.

[@theclawless1225]

Idk if I watched a different show or if being in high school makes me more skeptical of media taking place in high school but I really feel like everyone in this show doesn’t act like a human. I like this video allot though. You’re videos are always insightful.

[@semeyeify]

Big Joel why are you so smart? You always have really interesting interpretations of media that are sick to watch. While every other video about this series is about shock value it was awesome to see the show through the lens of literature and truth. What a guy

[@captainmarvelwilson508]

Every video is talking about how it does a poor job at addressing a lot of the topics it is addressing.

[@samdragonborn5864]

There was a place in my high school with a gym mat, a game station (I don’t remember what type), and a tv. It was hidden above the auditorium by some sophomore who would ditch class, it was found by the administrators within like a month.

[@TheBonkleFox]

13 reasons why (specifically season 4) is great material to just sit back and laugh at with friends sometimes. like, how the fuck did we go from teen coping with the fact that his unrequited crush took her own life to a girl in a forest hallucinates her rapist and spiders come out of him.

[@victoriangm7774]

I love this analysis. As someone who read the book first, Series 1 is actually a very good adaption. It's only when they eventually run out of book to adapt and have to start writing their own continuation that the show starts going off the rails.

[@rds4629]

i wonder if season 3 will be 13 families suing netflix b/c their loved ones committed suicide...

[@gasaiyuno6021]

Love this.

[@simbatre4541]

just subbed great analysis

[@LogicGated]

The series' portrayal of suicide goes wanting and borders on insulting even.

[@chhavithakur9155]

Perfect ✨

[@VioletEmerald]

Thank you so much for saying positive things about a show where 99% of video essays related to it are negative. You noticed things that I never would've and made me think about life and consuming media in a new light and new philosophical way.

[@claracalathea]

i like this perspective

[@Lucydog18]

“A sex summer with Zach” Hahahaha I laughed out loud. So funny and such a great, unique & and in-depth analysis of this show. I read the novel and loved it, but was pretty disappointed with the first season and didn’t care to watch the second. I enjoy watching your review/take on all of it though! Great video!

[@skatelouis6033]

I liked the way you saw this show, remembers me how I read the book "The girl who couldn't read" volume one and two. But the book seems to have total awareness that everything is twisted after you read the second one. The show 13 reasons why (even if it has that awareness) doesn't seems to have it, it's not totally clear that this was the point. I know that the book and the show have different morals and stories, specially the thoughts you put on the show and the thoughts I put on the book, because they don't portrait the same topics. They do portrait the idea to question if everything was real in the first part (season/volume) by having the second part making a mess with the story. I totally believe in my "adaptation" of the book, but I could be wrong since it's subjective and not super clear if that's the catch (but if you thing a little bit you get the answers). I agreed with the first part of your argument, but I don't see the story it self around this idea too much, and that makes me believe that the story isn't about that. Maybe the moral is there, but wasn't planned at all. It came naturally to you because you was able to see it, but if the moral was that, it have to be more noticeable, but it's not. It's really inspiring see someone digging this far for the meaning of a show. I personally do it with books a lot (I LOVE symbolism)! And you did a good job in this video, but the show isn't that good, the points you pointed here doesn't change the fact that portraits a lot of stuff wrong and hurts the society instead of starting a conversation in the "right way". It starts a conversation, but doing a big misconcept of it. I'm being of topic... The video and the analysis is great! But this show doesn't deserve the credit of your thoughts and opinions. And also read the book I mentioned, it's pretty dang good!

[@rachel111jones]

Not gonna lie you the most philosophical person I ever seen

[@Nathan-wm8yb]

Ikr his critical thinking skills give me chills.

[@nonsensicallyric]

I really appreciate this analysis. This show is... weirdly good while also being unforgivably gross. It does have interesting themes, which you talk about, that would be great if explored in a show that didn’t so irresponsibly deal with something so sensitive. And so much of it (the acting, the production, the non-suicide/mass shooting(god wtf was that) themes) are... good. There’s I think enough out there condemning the show, quite deservedly. It’s nice to see an articulation of the artistic achievements of it, if for no other reason than knowing that I’m not the only one to have mixed feelings about it. On the whole I think the world would be better if this show didn’t exist, but it does have merits. And for the record, I’m a suicide attempt survivor and have been hospitalized for suicidal ideation multiple times, so, yeah, I’m well aware of everything wrong and irresponsible about this show.

[@LonkinPork]

Big Joel is quickly becoming my favorite film/TV analyst, solely because he dives so deep into shallow, vapid, cynically-produced nonsense and gives it the benefit of nearly infinite doubts. It's amazing how an open and truly optimistic mindset can make subpar media seem groundbreaking and original.

[@SteveJubs]

There’s something about your perspective on things that’s just extremely pretty, not sure how else to put it

[@seafoamspirit3484]

13rw cant market itself as a psa to show the symptoms of depression that can lead to suicide, and a way to help those who suffer, when it just glorifies revenge driven suicide. i know you often take very shallow movies and try to see something deeper, but this just isnt the series to say "its bad, but if you look like this then its good!" the lorax wont give people a dangerous view of mental illness, or encourage depressed teens to take revenge and make their abusers feel bad by ending their life. the reason were so hard on this show is because it sold itself as a sure and true fact and got very popular, but the facts got horribly messed up and it could end up hurting people

[@somanypetals]

man I fuckin love this show. I get that maybe it shouldn't have been made, but I think every detail in how that made it was actually done amazingly. to me, any of the controversial problems come from the source material, or the question of "why choose make this tv show at all?" than from anything the tv show did itself. that season one flashback to present transition at the party with the screen door? changed my life man, so good as for season two I kind of love how stuck it is within these rules of the tapes, and the way the plots have to defy instinct and logic and yet not be impossible. the details almost become like surrealism, "why does this door I know should lead me to a kitchen instead lead me to the bathroom, and more importantly why don't I feel a stronger need to question it?" well, because Dream Rules, that's why. and then in this season we have "why did hannah not ask about the letter" or "why did hannah and clay not kiss here" and so on, and the answer is just simply...Tape Rules. and it should be more frustrating, but we accept it, and it's so easy to accept because they're not impossible reactions, they're just improbable, and I think the reason it's so effective is that the feeling it conjures up is what it feels like both to be a teenager and to look back on being a teenager. taking the long route to avoid something, constantly choosing silence and willful ignorance, or sometimes just not even knowing why you did or felt something at all-isn't that just what being a teenager felt like?

[@mzm4344]

Big Joel: click:* rips apart for an hour 13 Reasons why: MASTERPIECE! SO RELATABLE AND DEEP! Also an interesting point, I'm a teenager and I don't find any characters in 13 reasons why relatable. Seems more like what adults think teenagers are like.

[@pokcow01]

You could sell liquid nails on toast to a man with dentures.

[@seanramsdell4117]

Imagine the world of 13RW as a beautiful carwreck... and a Hell on Earth

[@ashleycoonfield9051]

I would very much like a full timeline video of the events of 13RW across all seasons.

[@cuckoo-clockheart]

If my recollection of the book is right the school is liable for her death. She came to them for help. She told them she had suicidal ideation and was dismissed. As someone that has felt this way and has had to ask for help before. Had I been turned down the way she was. It could have costed my life as well. The counselor failed to do his job. He failed to believe her. Once the school found out they failed to deal with him

[@jordanmcentyre1995]

The episode about Zach was in the past tense. She wrote that letter to him the school year after their romance. Just wanted to clear that up.

[@eggynack]

Pretty sure you're mistaken. The Zach flashbacks depicted in the first season seem like they take place after the Zach flashbacks in the second season. In particular because it's strongly implied that Hannah and Zach barely know each other when they meet at the diner.

[@daniellehell9941]

And when they first start talking in the movie theater, he apologizes to her which wouldn’t make any sense if the second season flashbacks happened first

[@cherrychurch3655]

Netflix: Hannah is permanently dead, she will not be returning in season 2. Thanos: Hold my beer.

[@mollyprysunka7741]

IT chapter 2 did a more respectful depiction of suicide than 13 reasons why.

[@Hipno702]

I’ve come to the conclusion that 13RW is a show about the horrors of teenage life, but the target audience is people who have never experienced such horrors. And the imagery is ramped up to 11 on behalf of people that wouldn’t take it seriously otherwise. It’s traumatizing for people that deal with this shit firsthand and it’s really not for us and if they had addressed that in the beginning, it might not have been as negatively received

[@pseudoriginal3839]

Whooodawgit 13 reasons why 13 reasons why 13 reasons why etc.

[@Naturenerd1000]

What you said 13 Reasons Why is good but Say Incredibles 2 was bad?!

[@TheCrimsonDrummer]

Even the basic premise of this show is fucked up. It's not in any a nuanced view of mental illness, bullying, high school life, etc. It's a pandering, indulgent revenge fantasy for people with suicidal tendencies and that is not a good thing. It glamorizes suicide as this powerful tool to get back at the people who wronged you. It's a misguided, uninformed mess that does a disservice to people who suffer from suicidal thoughts, depression, bullying, etc.

[@skyhunterloveu]

I choked at 10:42 because that was my exact reaction when I heard there was a season 2

[@wesleyackerman8211]

I haven't seen this show but i have one MAJOR problem with it.... WHO RECORDS OR LISTENS TO CASSETTE TAPES ANYMORE? HOW!!??? I haven't seen a machine that records or plays cassettes for like 15 years or more.

[@LucyMusic1999]

Because it's inspired by a book that was written like in 2000 something. I read the book when I was a kid. However, in the book he's listened all the tapes during ONE night so it's without that cliches and unnecessary drama that are portrayed in 13 reasons why.