Abusive Apologetics: Unmasking Manipulative Tactics And Strategies

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Happy Saturday!

[@carlasmith9093]

Happy Saturday to you too!

[@thevulture5750]

Is this info accurate? kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYu7oHiwgMSflbc

[@Uryvichk]

I like how he said God cursed them "for some time." You mean, uh, forever? Or at least for Adam's entire life and the entire lives of his many descendants through at least Jesus? I suppose that is TECHNICALLY "some" span of time, but he makes it sound like Adam had to do 100 hours of community service or something.

[@merbst]

Happy Saturday! I'm glad you are speaking out about the abusive manipulations of Christianity. The patterns of behavior it encourages are absolutely destructive to the development of a well adjusted person, in many distinct ways for different personalities convolved with the unique mix of people who they regularly interact with. By this, I mean some children are always made to feel inferior because of something about them that they can not camouflage adequately to be able to confirm to the expectations their adult caretakers have for how a good Christian child should comport themselves. After ~15 years of noticing signs of displeasure & micro-aggressions from all authorities they have ever known, & mockery, ostracism, & teasing (or even outright shunning = homelessness) from their peers who are subconsciously following the examples set by the adults in their family, their neighbors, their schools & at church, the feelings of inferiority become very deeply internalized into their self-concept & self esteem. I can personally attest that I found self-advocacy (such as is needed at the highly competitive weeklong job interviews that stood in the way of resuming my career as a software engineer) to be impossible due to my own internalized self-doubt & anxiety over getting evicted when the savings account ran dry. I learned one thing from the experience: being broke & homeless is freaking expensive. Contrast the child above with the messages internalized by overly-praised child who had found themselves to be a perfect fit for the ecological niche within their attentional ecosystem I hereby label "the apple polisher". You know the type, the suck-up, the boot-licker, the back-stabber, the tattle-tale, the one who would throw anyone under a bus just to hear 3 words of praise. Well I think I have lost my point (dang tiny cellphone scteen box), but I was planning to say I really admire how Kristi Burke (KZbinr who has about 10K subs) often talks about the abusive manipulations of her former brand of Christianity (Southern Baptist I believe). Also for a bit more context about the first child character I described above, please search KZbin for "Autistic Masking" videos, and also for "Pathological Demand Avoidance" (aka PDA) and then imagine how Autistic children fare in crowds of their peers who believe that they are possessed by demons. Ok, as usual keep up the grat work Brandon! Go do something fun with your wife & kids! Happy Weekend!

[@merbst]

One more thing, my favorite Autism Advocacy KZbinrs are this guy: youtube.com/@autismfromtheInside & this lady: youtube.com/@imautisticnowwhat Also a woman by the handle of YoSamdySam created good content a couple of years ago. & "How to ADHD" is an extremely inspirational woman, who also talks on other neurodivergencies including Autism. FYI, the label "Asperger's Disorder" to describe the childhood form of mild Autism, has been dropped as of 2015, because its namesake, Hans Asperger was a NAZI collaborator during the Third Reich.

[@inwyrdn3691]

If Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is so amazing and powerful and perfect but his entire creation can be thrown into chaos by two naked vegans and a talking nope-rope, maybe he's not as impressive as his fan clubs think.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol what a comment

[@CharlesPayet]

“…talking nope-rope...” Love it! Kind of like some language’s translation of “goose” is “murder chicken.”

[@johntiggleman4686]

I only recently heard the term nope-rope...pretty damn funny.

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

​@@CharlesPayet: Maybe geese are the verification of the veracity of the Biblical accounts of creation...since they clearly are the spawn of Satan.^^

[@_Omega_Weapon]

No omniscient being would have to "test" anything.

[@alfonsomedilo6511]

Bingo! 👍👍👍

[@MrMattSax]

I feel that if you really wrap yourself around the concept of hell (infinite, unending torture, pain, sadness, etc) for any number of finite crimes, it reveals itself as the most immoral concept ever invented by man. And Christians are commanded to call it good.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Precisely! Video on hell coming tuesday btw. Its insanity isnt it?

[@MrMattSax]

@@MindShift-Brandon keep up the good work, great content

[@destroyraiden]

And to be loved by the bible's abusive god is to always be under constant thread of death cuz if you mess up anywhere he'll send you to hell even though they have other chapters that say god can see your intentions & heart so which one is it? Will he see your good & keep you alive or not? Cuz the bible seems to allude in not.

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people by creating a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

@@MindShift-Brandon I wouldn't be so quick to agree in the whole. Christianity isn't the only world religion that holds a doctrine about hell, take Naraka for instance, it's the Buddhist doctrine of hell, only NO ONE has a way out, everyone goes there.

[@jerryhayes9497]

It's the battered spouse syndrome. She stays with him because she thinks she deserves the beatings . Christians think we deserve the beatings god gives us

[@dragowolfraven3806]

Lousy God - Homer Simpson

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100%! Its an abusive relationship through and through

[@jerryhayes9497]

@@dragowolfraven3806 😂

[@Shuji_the_great]

That's like promising one piece of candy by being a total perfect and obedient fellow and by that time you were given the candy it's long expired and you moved on to a different pallete which to be honest is how i would sum christianity but with the candy not being real.

[@FakingANerve]

​@@Shuji_the_greatdon't forget to remind them that they have to believe the candy is the only candy there is, and they have to bow down to it and praise it or you'll torture them for doubting

[@therhapsodist976]

Fundamentalism thrives on a misanthropic curriculum; it's self-depreciative conditioning.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats a good term for it

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people by creating a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@blueStarKitt7924]

😔😞😔

[@JasonPrzybycien]

I remember that. Finally left a church after the umpteenth time I was told I didn't deserve to be saved and my good deeds were just "filthy rags"

[@lilafeldman8630]

Yes, that's a good way to put it.

[@lisaspikes4291]

I really like how you go deep into these subjects. Most people aren’t deep thinkers. Some people call it overthinking, but I don’t believe you can overthink some things. Christianity has all these rules, but when you look at them and break them down, they are garbage. Keep up the good work! You’ve become one of my favorite KZbin channels!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats so awesome to hear. Thank you very much!

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

what are "all these rules" that Christianity has? Can you explain?

[@betzib8021]

I so agree with you. It's almost impossible to think through to any real understanding regarding concepts that people you loved indoctrinated into yiu when you were a child. If you don't desire to think deeply you will never ever break through. This channel helps my anxiety about all these thoughts so much. I can't get enough.

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

@@jacliveshere That's so deeeep

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

@@jacliveshere No apologies necessary, I thought it was deeeep

[@billcoady4333]

This is the first video of yours I have seen. Total props and kudos, your analysis and delivery is spot on. Fantastic. One thing I would mention about this as well, which I have considered before, but is so clear here. So, if we humans are "lowly dirt" compared to god, how can we possibly hurt or offend him? It would be like a human being taking a gnat personally. "Oh terrible gnat, you flew near my face after I warned you not to, I curse you and your offspring for a thousand generations!" And this is god we should love and worship?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you so much for the kindness and welcome to the family! Glad to have you here. And yes i love your added point. This god should be sufficient in and of himself.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

@@MindShift-Brandon The christian god is just a character in a very flawed anthology of a book. It is a book with stories from the minds of clever, but unsophisticated people who needed some explaination for what they were experiencing as their brains were developing the ability to reason and abstract.

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

Geez, that gnat thing is sort of a weird comparison given that we usually just kill the gnat when it pesters us. It's almost like you're arguing for God.

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people by creating a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@juanausensi499]

Yes, if God is perfect, then whatever we make shouldn't bother him, because there is no way to harm, even psychologically, a perfect being. Another problem with the perfect being idea, is that, compared to him, eveything is equally worthless. The same way one and a thousand are equally far from infinity, there is no reason why God should prefer humans to, say insects, or even rocks.

[@peterbalholm2138]

The questioner's offense was not in forgetting "who God is, and who we are" as Sproul said. It was to read a Bible verse describing God, and taking it seriously.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes exactly. How dare we expect god to do and be who he says

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people by creating a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@nunayatfact9672]

Which scripture should be taken more seriously?

[@JEREMIAH53031-]

Wow, that's deep

[@zacharylehocki]

Brilliantly and effectively done Brandon. I love the way you are able to break down an apologists rhetoric like this so calmly and precisely one piece at a time.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh thanks man. Appreciate that. Glad to hear its coming through well.

[@scrider5493]

Brando, I recognized the applause from the congregants as core to religion: you are dirt, you are worthless, you are trash and they love it. As if congregants say, "Yes! Tell me more! I am worthless, I sin, I define the Almighty! I deserve hell! Not just a time out, not for a weekend, not for 1000 years, but forever." But luckily, I know Jesus and I am saved. At least, I think I am.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly. Its fuel to their fire of why they live their life this way. Why they need jesus. Uggg

[@onedaya_martian1238]

@@ExcuseMeBut_ This is sooo true. Them thar christians have their Silly Wanker Golden Ticket to the Heavenly Cholate Factory....and the heathens who haven't bought into this are the ones who are dirty and don't know they are evil. They need to be beLIEvers, like us religious folks.

[@joevollbach4099]

Yeah, it really does just try to make you think as low of yourself as possible and tell you that when you die, gods just gonna look at you and go "you're trash" and throw you into the incinerator while also making you technically fireproof. But if you know his son, he would be all "you're not trash cuz my son says you're cool, get in here and start kissing my feet forever, pal."

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I love how he just tosses the word Thanatos out there for effect. Like when I tell the waitress at the restaurant, "Here's your emolument." 🤣🤣🤣

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha and also why use greek when referencing OT anyways

[@FakingANerve]

​@@MindShift-BrandonLOL! Good question!

[@emmanuella2960]

😂😂

[@egg_bun_]

☠️

[@michaelhenry1763]

Wonderful video. I have not listened to or heard about RC Sproul in 20 or 25 years. He was a god in my Presbyterian circles. I remember a seminary student carrying his Geneva Study Bible and quoting RC Sproul. He sounds so angry and aggrieved.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you! And yes i bet decades of spouting this kind of hate take their toll on the individual

[@sidstovell2177]

He looks unwell there.

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

​@@sidstovell2177: Oddly, he contracted emphysema from being a chain smoker. Seeks like an odd vice for a fundamentalist Calvinist preacher to have...

[@elainejohnson6955]

Maybe this god should know not to put a couple of forbidden trees in the middle of a garden with people who don't know right from wrong yet, and a talking serpent that they will actually listen to instead of running away from it scared sh*tless since serpents can't talk. It is like a parent putting a baby in a crib with a loaded gun, telling the baby not to use the gun, and then putting their sibling in the room to show them how to use it. Whose fault is that when they get shot?!?!?

[@Uryvichk]

God had an angel with a flaming sword or something he could dispatch to guard the Garden. Maybe tell that guy to stand by the tree? I dunno, what else was that guy doing to draw a paycheck at the time?

[@skepticusmaximus184]

@@Uryvichk What's wrong with an electric fence or even an invisible forcefield. 🤔 How is an omnipotent god so bound to bronze age technology?

[@a.b.2405]

You make a very good point now that you put it that way.

[@elainejohnson6955]

Brandon, Your blunt comparison of one person saying we are just lowly beings made of dirt vs. another person saying we are made in the image of God brilliantly illustrates how people take what they want out of the Bible and make it into whatever they want.. Made me laugh cause I realized how I used to hold both of these opposing ideas in my head at the same time. Thanks!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

The funny thing is Voddie was on this same panel nodding his head as RC ranted. The dissonance is overwhelming!

[@FinHammer]

Somehow they can harmonize these two 😂 We need an olympic series for apologetics.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Can you imagine, ha!

[@johnloftin2461]

You never disappoint. Great presentation. I can't stand RC Sproul. He and really every preacher I can think of in my life use cheap easy answers with broad blessings and a wimpy Christ with broad judgements. I used to like the Apologist crowd, but I'd rather hang out with fleas than indulge their foolishness.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you very much, man!

[@gojub3173]

Well said, my man - Sproul used to be a hero of mine before I de-converted, now I see how small minded and abusive these beliefs are...fun fact - my family believes this way, so I am the "damned" awaiting the wrath and eternal judgement of their "loving god". I sure am enjoying my life, though! Thanks for your content - I've binged your videos since I found you over the last 4 days, also subbed - keep up the work - there are more and more people like myself who are tuning into helpful content like this - peace.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So kind. R3eally appreciate you being here!

[@elicaraballo8990]

I love the way you break it down… so glad I have found your channel!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Eli! Appreciate you being here.

[@Betttty]

I learn more from you than i have from my pastors 🎉

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that and you being here!

[@BookishChas]

Excellent breakdown of this topic Brandon!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much, sir!

[@josephbelisle5792]

Well done stating the use of narcissistic abusive techniques in religion. And i found the end most well done in it by stating you are done. This behavior is intolerable in a society that respects the human condition. Everyone should be aware of it and be done with it the moment of its conception. Such sickness is not an attribute of a successful species. It in fact leads to its destruction.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

To destruction indeed! Thanks for the kind words. Just need to help as many people as possible

[@YY4Me133]

The funny thing is, nowhere in the story does it say that A&E were immortal, or that the serpent was anything other than a serpent. Those were added to the story to make it fit the christian narrative.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

That stupid anthology, marketed as "the word of god(tm)" has soo many plot holes, no wonder it is called "hole". For example, if A&E were immortal, why is it mentioned that it was good they did not eat from the tree of everlasting life ? Thing is, there is profit to be made with all the explanations that can be made of of the hard of thinking who beLIEve in this crap.

[@blumoon131]

Exactly! The only reason the Old Testament is kept around in Christianity is because so much of it has had Jesus and the Devil retroactively forced into places they never belonged in.

[@thegreatgazoo7579]

@@blumoon131 The reason the OT was kept was that Romans thought that only things that were very old were true and important. Christianity needed something very old to claim it was from, in order to appeal to the Roman world.

[@tobymartin2137]

The ultimate fallback for apologists when it comes to questioning the actions of their god is relying on God's holiness, his power, his divinity, his eternity - it's nakedly a might-makes-right mentality, and it is irritating in the extreme for none of them to just admit that outright. I really like Number0neson's analysis of Genesis 3, how God was willing to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life by banishment and then guarding it with angels and an all-seeing flaming sword, but the Tree of Knowledge (which, according to Christian theology would introduce suffering, death, and damnation) was completely unguarded, right in the middle of the garden. It showcases the priorities of such a being in the extreme - and indeed, that was his primary motivation for banishing the pair from the garden, according to verses 22-23, that he didn't want the two of them attaining eternal life the easy way. Of course, an implication here was that mortality was humanity's default state, rather than a consequence of the Fall, making the whole story more Promethean and much less Christian. And honestly, the more you read of Genesis, the less sense it makes within a Christian framework - if Jesus' death and resurrection was meant to deliver us from sin, death, and damnation, why did it take so long for him to arrive? Why not have him be Eve's firstborn? Why, when he's reached the end of his tether with humanity's sinfulness in Genesis 6 did he not put his plan into action then, instead deciding to (almost) entirely wipe the slate clean? Why, if all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all our good works are like filthy rags, how come God distinguishes righteous people (Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot) and either rewards them or spares them from destruction? I increasingly feel that the main narrative Christians derive from the Bible is ultimately not one the text supports, at least for the most part.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Love this. Thanks for sharing yes its just not biblical!

[@roberthawes3093]

It's interesting to me that he couldn't answer the question without starting to sermonize. Then he scolds the audience, which applauds him for it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

its an utter mess and pathetic!

[@damianwhite504]

Yes, Sproul is true to his Calvinist roots

[@Nickelini]

Another excellent video. Keep up the great work at calling out these fools and frauds

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Much appreciated

[@britaom3299]

One more thing to add: since I came from Calvinism and a church where this man - R.C. Sproul - was idolized, I can also comment on the sheer sadistic hatred that lurks in the hearts of people like this. It is almost unfathomable to me now to ever think that I could seriously believe that humans, from the moment they are born, deserve....DESERVE!!!....to be tortured and brutalized in the most sadistic manner possible and that FOREVER....simply for being born and all because of some mythical story that never even happened in the first place. And that only a select few - "the Elect" - will escape this gruesome fate, while everyone else will suffer it, again, all for being human! (But of course .... OF COURSE! .... R.C. Sproul and all his "fans" just happen to be in "the Elect" so they won't suffer like everyone else!! And this is the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL!!) What utter sadistic, hate-filled, narcissistic garbage! And how can these views not blacken their hearts with callousness, cruelty, and hatred?? Pardon my rant, but this video struck a nerve and it is all part of the ongoing Christian detox program I am going through!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

No apologies needed. I understand the trigger and frustration from the former live. Appreciate you sharing here!

[@Charlotte_Martel]

One of the strangest discussions I had was with someone who hardcore believed in the Original Sin = deserving hell concept. The most logical and loving thing a parent could ever do for her child then is to abort or at least never conceive him/her since every child who comes into this world has his/her soul placed in jeopardy, whereas abortion returns the soul to heaven w/o the risk of damnation. Needless to say, this person did not appreciate this line of reasoning.

[@britaom3299]

@@Charlotte_Martel Indeed, any line of reasoning that doesn't end up justifying their hatred, bigotry, exclusivism, and their totalitarian lust to control other people, won't be appreciated! Speaking of the abort!on issue, another thing that was funny going to a Reformed Protestant church, where "God's Word is TRUE!!" and everything in it is inerrant and to be taken literally, was hearing them preach against the practice and insisting that "God is PRO LIFE!!" Remember, these are people who INSISTED that EVERYTHING they do is justified by "God's inerrant Word!" Um, OK...where is abortion condemned in the Bible? It's not. But the damning thing (for them) is that, not only does the Bible NOT condemn abort!on, it actually CONDONES the practice in the book of Numbers, chapter 5. In verses 12-31, there is a recipe for an abortifacient that is to be given to a pregnant wife suspected of cheating on her husband. If she WAS cheating on her husband, her belly then swells and her womb falls away and she is cursed forever and will never bear children again! Is that, or is that not, an abort!on? Guess God is not "pro life" after all? (Well, of course, one could just read the rest of the Bible to disabuse one of THAT notion!)

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people to create a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@anita10674]

@@Charlotte_Martel Its the reason I chose to never have children. Your comment reminded me of something. Idk, if you ever heard of or saw the movie Beloved (its a movie about slavery, one of the harder ones to watch). Anyway, Oprah's character kills her young children and baby because she didn't want them to suffer her fate, the life of a black female slave in the south, terrorized, raped and beaten daily. It's unthinkable, I know but I get it why she did it. Every single day of my life, I have lived under the terror that a literal god is going douse me with literal gasoline and throw down a literal match and set me on literal fire, a fire that will never die out.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

11:00 yes, that's exactly what he means. You hit the nail right on the head earlier in this video when you pointed out how unhappy god is with people who ask questions.

[@Jake-zc3fk]

Awesome job again Brandon!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, man!

[@isaacdrewes6926]

You know, growing up as a devout fundamentalist Christian, I’ve slowly come to realize how crazy and batshit the system of religion is. I’ve had all these doubts of my old beliefs and those same thoughts for a while now, but you have helped to really crystallize them for me. Some good shit, man, keep up the videos!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right?! And thank you, will do!

[@theboombody]

Being crazy doesn't mean untrue. Special relativity is built on stuff so crazy I never would have imagined it. That doesn't mean religion is true, but it does mean that nature is crazier than we'll ever realize. And we're finding that out more and more the deeper we go. It's scary.

[@isaacdrewes6926]

@@theboombody Religion is about total dominance and control, nature is everything except that

[@duanethompson8770]

The “scholar” does give a great demonstration of gaslighting in order to defend god and put down Christians.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

All the clapping from the audience as he abuses them in the name of god is everything thats wrong with religion.

[@danielmortimer532]

Fundamentalist Christianity (especially Calvinism), is a classic scam: You create the sickness by saying everybody is destined for eternal torture in Hell just for being born which they have no control over and can't escape; so then you can sell the cure which is everybody repenting and believing in whatever you say so they can escape the horrific fate you made up to scare them (which is actually God somehow choosing them according to their own incoherent dogma). Nobody knows what happens after we die and we have all done bad things, and we also know we have very little control over what happens in this world and to us; and it scares us. And fundamentalism preys on these fears by inventing a fictional wrathful god that creates people with the purpose of making them eternally suffer, where only special people can escape. By elevating the power and wrath of their god and reducing the worth, value, and agency of individual human beings in their theology, the fundies can assume more power and control over people to create a dependence. It's about control, not about some fictional salvation. People are more willing to submit to abuse, authoritarian control, and believe obvious lies if they're made to feel personally insignificant and powerless in understanding what's true without an outside unquestionable authority; and herein lies the brilliant scam of fundamentalism which is front and center in R.C. Sproul's beloved Calvinism. It's the exact textbook medical definition of psychological torture and emotional manipulation abusers use to control victims to keep them scared and from leaving the abuser, and it's been used in fundamentalist religion by people like R.C. Sproul from day one.

[@blumoon131]

This is an especially eye-opening video for me as I've a family member who has *really* gotten into Sproul and looks to him as a strong spiritual leader. I have no idea if he has seen this side of Sproul before, and I'm not sure I want to see him try and defend the man's misanthropy.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Sproul is just like the rest of them. Nothing special. Just bad excuses. Corrupt methods and wrong.

[@DannyS177]

Calling the gospel of Jesus "good news" is a bit ironic. "Hey kids! Did you know that God created your ancestors and immediately gave them a 1 question test and they failed! And because they failed, you were born evil and will be tortured for all of eternity unless you pledge loyalty to him because God loves you. He loves everyone so much he only wants most of them tortured for all of eternity, but not you. Unless you aren't one of the ones he hand picked." That's what Christians would say if they were honest.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ironic is apt but too nice lol

[@akiingvarsson554]

As someone who actually speaks Greek and Hebrew, I can say that the fact that he randomly added the word θάνατος after saying "death" in plain English, as if it was some special estoric term that clarified, or added any kind of new meaning, significance or weight to his argument, was super cringey and pathetic. Especially when we consider that the question was about Genesis which was written in Hebrew originally. Why didn't he add the word מוות instead? It would at least make a little bit more sense.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol! I knew it was bad but this helps know just how bad. Thanks!

[@MarkSheeres]

😂😂 love this comment so much. I remember some apologist, referring to being made in the image of God, and , wanting to sound smart, saying “imago dei”. I was like, dude-the Bible wasn’t written in Latin ! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@jonahjonah1]

It’s cause he knew he already had a “moot” point

[@akiingvarsson554]

@@jonahjonah1 That was brilliant.

[@cody9744]

Isn’t thanatos a Greek name? Like the “person” of death and not the act of dying. Really broke the immersion for me

[@bradharman3470]

Sproul's seminary professor and mentor in the faith was Dr. John Gerstner. Gerstner was the most recognized authority on Jonathan Edwards within the church. There is a youtube lecture by Gerstner called Hell part 1. At 17:13 he goes on about how God will be laughing and mocking the unsaved as they are literally burning in Hell. Just thought I'd mention it with Mindshift getting ready to post another video on Hell.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh wow. Thats so crazy. Ill have to check it out!

[@curiousnerdkitteh]

Notice how the church all applauded him for rebuking them because Christians see it as strength and preaching the gospel without compromise. It's the whole performance of looking confident and yelling like you're rebuking a demon. It's good to be yelled at. Christianity often feels like one big degradation kink.🙄 I'm being facetious but not entirely - what it is is not consensual. I remember how it was almost a relief to feel like and accept I was to blame, like that was something I could fix by just repenting. Now I know it was just abuse and I was being broken down and just wanted it to end. It's been a big process of learning that when someone yells at or abuses me for some inadequacy they perceive, THEY'RE the one with the problem, actually. Unlearning all that internalised acceptance of abuse has REALLY been a process but I've come so far, now I have far healthier relationships and I have been able to focus more on the healing itself.🙂

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Utterly gross! Appreciate your comment. Degradation link is hilarious and apt!

[@WingDiamond]

That's why "The Way of the Mister" calls it "Excuse-agetics".

[@bendfocuspro]

Great video. Makes my cringe over my past. I read all of R.C's books. Was one of my favorite theologians.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Luckily i never got to him when i still believed. I was stuck with the hovinds and tureks for a while and then macarthurs and cs lewiss of the workd.

[@EmissaryOfStuff]

The dude doesn't adress at all as to how punishing all of Humanity for Adam's Sin could be fair.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Its a pathetic defense based of emotion and shame. Yuck

[@utubepunk]

Because it's not.

[@karlu8553]

I met and briefly spoke with Sproul in the mid-late 90's when I was an evangelical Christian and thought he was an abrasive arrogant jerk even then. Now post deconversion, he definitely represents some of the worst of reformed evangelical theology and apologetics that I left behind

[@MindShift-Brandon]

He just seems monstrous. Can you imagine him being your parent

[@damianwhite504]

yes, he's a grumpy old Calvinist

[@BrianForTheWin]

Sproul is about the most misanthropic person you could possibly meet. He absolutely despises human beings, and seems to revere god principally because he’s going to take his vengeance on us. The dude is sick. Also, can we stop calling what Adam and Eve did a sin? “When the woman saw that the tree was beautiful to the eyes, was good for food, and was desirable to make one wise, she took of the fruit and she ate; and she gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate.” Since when is a simple act of opportunistic disobedience motivated by beauty, sustenance, and a desire for wisdom some egregious sin? There’s no malice here, no hatred, no cruelty whatsoever. Just a possible mistaken attempt at self-improvement. And for this we get ages of suffering, death, and bloodshed culminating in the majority of human beings getting sadistically tortured for all eternity? Assuming Adam and Eve were guilty of anything, the first principle of justice when sentencing any guilty party is that the punishment must fit the crime. Christianity is so perverse on this score it’s almost like the origin story is meant to be some kind of cosmic shit test to see how gullible and self-loathing people really are.

[@kalinora3901]

Another interesting deconversion question would be that if sin did not come into existence until they ate the fruit, then how could they know what disobedience meant or that eating the fruit was wrong? They wouldn't.@@BrianForTheWin

[@A-WallfromAL]

His son is just as bad if not worse.

[@celticbabs3105]

I'm so glad I was pointed to your channel by someone on the r/ExChristian subReddit. You ask the very same questions I have had recently. I'm deconverting from Christianity and will be binge watching your videos. I appreciate what you are doing here! Wish you much success in reaching so many traumatized people because of this horrific religion.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats so encouraging to hear. Thank you for being here and good luck on this journey. Reach out if you need anything

[@celticbabs3105]

@@MindShift-Brandon Wow, that is really kind of you to offer!

[@somersetcace1]

There's a much more glaring problem. If this entity is as described as being an eternal entity, who existed in a state of absolute isolation, who is all powerful and omniscient, then nothing it creates could be anything other than the way it willed it to be. The alternative is absurd. There's no `beginning and ending` to existence in the perception of such a being. It would be like a multidimensional still frame model from it's inception to its end. The very notion of such an entity being `angered` over something it willed to be, is nonsense. They try to resolve it with free will, but it doesn't matter. Every freewill choice any human has ever made or will make has already been made at the point this entity created existence. Therefore, it either created that thing wanting it to be rebellious or it's insane, and we'd be in trouble anyway, if it actually exited.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

10000%! Thanks for articulating this so well

[@Uryvichk]

In addition, many of them cling to Classical Theism when they find it convenient, yet one of the conclusions Classical Theism leads you to is that God is incapable of changing or being affected by anything. Getting angry is being affected by something. So not only should God not be angry about something he intentionally willed to happen, he shouldn't be CAPABLE of getting angry AT ALL. Not "patient and slow to anger," literally incapable of emotions (plus he has no body, so what's causing emotional responses in God's mind?). Now the defenders of Classical Theism will say, "Yes well, God's wrath is just an analogy," but setting aside whether that makes any sense, that won't save Sproul here, because Sproul is arguing that God should have been disgusted and offended that a creature of the dirt would DARE to defy him. That is not something a being incapable of emotion would do. God would not feel disgust at the defiance of a lesser being even if he somehow didn't know for sure that the being would defy him. He might punish him, perhaps, but not because he was upset that someone defied him.

[@Gamet150]

This was one of the many question I thought of as a believer that didn’t make any sense to me. And the answer I got from other believer made me question god. And once the pebble gets into your shoe it is very hard for it to not grind against you.

[@michaelvout7813]

Another excellent video exposing the disgraceful behaviour of these people. And they have the audacity to claim that they have source of morals.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Great, great episode !! The best part is the recognition of what was on display: the straight forward manipulation by a preacher to give people a problem - terrible self worth, and then provide the "cure" - listening to the leacher talk about "god" as the cure. The only part missing in this presentation, was highlighting the overt purpose of the deceit by this "pastor" - keeping the money rolling in to hear more cult explanations, plus the prestige of being thought of as an inspired (and well paid) interpreter of "god's word (tm)". It must be a congenital form of narcissisms in people that causes them to belong to a religious or political group, thinking they have "the truth", no matter how perverse, which then lets them mentally bully others so their convictions are affirmed. Fortunately, logic, as you are presenting, is prevailing. And the innumerable horrible "holey" plot lines of this book are being recognized. Perhaps humanity is becoming adolescent in its thinking, and not deferring, childlike, to authoritarian authority "because real thinking is hard". Although, a lot of Americans still seem to be sucking their thumbs when it comes to selecting leaders.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you very much for that and for sharing your insight!

[@somethingkindawierd]

My KZbin account has just become a like-factory mindshift content. This video is so spot on. Well done, and keep up the good work.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Thanks so much

[@Lightman741]

"Love keeps no record of wrongdoings"-"and all those sins were written in the lambs book of life" lol

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Hadn’t considered that one before

[@Lightman741]

@@MindShift-Brandon I will add to that "god is love" "love keeps no record of wrong doings" "lambs book of life"

[@Charlotte_Martel]

@@Lightman741 Did anyone REALLY believe that "God is love" line though prior to the New Agey Jesus freaks (their words, not mine) of the late 60s-70s? There's no way one could read Job, the various genocides, plagues, etc orchestrated by God, let alone the creation of hell in the NT, and think that this deity represents love.

[@jenny-el3wh]

As a nonbeliever but a long time student of religions of the world I find it amusing that a fundamentalist can hold onto his hatred of Calvinism even after losing his faith in God. That's the thing about Christianity, it's so fragmented and they have so much animosity towards each other that they hold on to it even after they lose their faith.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I hold on to it even after losing my faith because it still affects real peoples lives in negative ways. Theres real harm. I care about it the same way i would still hate drugs if i was a recovering addict.

[@theboombody]

Happens whenever anything gets big enough to have a WHOLE lot of people. They start squabbling and cannibalizing each other. Even the secular community is pretty divided now on all the transgender sports stuff.

[@jenny-el3wh]

Well said theboombody, I totally agree!

[@ChixieMary]

Thank you again for another awesome video. ❣️ The continual blaming of the human for every fault in the god itself has always been problematic for me. I never understood why we were being punished for something that we didn't do. Why should I go to hell when I've not done anything to deserve hell? I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't steal. I've never murdered anyone or ever even seriously thought about murdering anyone. I'm definitely not perfect, whatever that is, but even as a young child, I found it grossly unfair that I should be PREdestined for hell for what someone else did. How is that merciful or just? By what metric is that measured? On a completely different note, as a child I noticed this was a bit....iffy.... How could death be introduced to the world? Was there no life cycle? Did the animals that this god had just made, not eat or excrete or reproduce? Were there no bacteria, viruses, cellular creatures of some sort? Did they not live and die on some level? How about eating? Who came up with that idea? Who instructed those animals or Adam and Eve on how to eat or what eating was? How about the complex digestive system that requires billions of bacteria to digest food? Yes, that wasn't the thing either... None of it makes any sense. Not to mention being extremely toxic and entirely misanthropic. Love ya, Brandon❤❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks for this love! and thanks for this wonderful comment of just a few of the issues with the genesis story. What a mess!

[@FakingANerve]

​@@MindShift-Brandon"but that was the _old_ covenant!" 😏

[@ChixieMary]

@@FakingANerve Yeah! The old covenant where there was no life cycle!. How exactly does that work?🫤

[@FakingANerve]

@@ChixieMary "Mysterious ways." 😄

[@adilabdurahman5846]

Choose Islam then

[@jeanhartely]

So we're just creatures from the dirt? Well, who made us that way? This god can't sneeze without frigging up, it seems.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol!

[@Uryvichk]

R.C. Sproul has a book defending the Trinity. I read it, and at no point does he actually explain what the Trinity actually is, declares it a mystery, and then chillingly says on the last few pages that the real point of the Trinity is to force other professed Christians to state what they believe on the Trinity to essentially weed out the "fake" ones. He's basically admitting no one understands the idea, but it's still useful to make people who don't understand the idea accidentally commit to heresy trying to make sense of it so they can be bullied. An absolute tool, that guy.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Wow. Thats horrendous. I try to read the other side as much as possible. But people like this make it hard to roll in the mud too long

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Bullying people because one proclaims to be an authority on a stupid anthology marketed as "the world of god (tm)" is how leachers make their money. "Buy my book ! Pay for my words !!" , they say. But no person is smarter, healthier or necessarily nicer as a result of "divine intervention".

[@Charlotte_Martel]

Seriously, considering that they view eternal torture as the price of blasphemy, trying to make fellow believers accidently commit it is beyond twisted.

[@shanederry2691]

What a dishonest and brainwashed person Sproul is. Firstly, Sproul didn't even answer the excellent question in the video. He just whines and demonizes the question as offensive. Thanks, for not giving an answer. Secondly, he supports a man made construct being the trinity which was fully developed in the fourth century. Yet, nobody in the Bible nor the writers speak of, believe, or write about a trinity.

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

Really? Surely you must be misinterpreting what the book says...

[@alanhyland5697]

I hate all kinds of BINGO, but this one most of all. You're right to call out the signs of abuse.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol! And thank you much

[@sidstovell2177]

😂

[@luizr.5599]

Great content. The dishonesty of apologetics. The mental gymnastics

[@booklover78910]

Thank you so much for debunking this myth of hell. I am an agnostic atheist now but was raised fundamentalist Christian in a small cult… and damn, I have had anxiety my whole life worrying about Hell. Yeah, changing beliefs helped a bit, but you doing these logical takedowns REALLY helps me to be confident that I won’t be going to Hell because it doesn’t really exist. Thank you so much for this; I truly mean it. Thank you. ❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad you found it useful! Thanks for watching

[@theboombody]

You SHOULD have anxiety about sin. There are consequences for it that happen ON THIS EARTH. When people say STAY AWAY FROM DRUGS, my gosh listen to them.

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

Of course you are supposed to have anxiety! A Godly anxiety that makes you quail to offend Him and thus warrant the dread punishment.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So biblical. Oh except the verse that says be anxious about nothing.

[@That_Tuning_Guy]

Many years ago I listened to R.C.Sproul quite a bit when I was a christian and I'm surprised by his answer. It was more of a cranky old man answer. Not thoughtful at all. It could be that he's getting tired of making excuses for god, so has taken the tactic of just attacking the person asking the question. As you say, theologians have to tie themselves in knots to try and answer some questions and he's probably just gotten tired of it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Id be tired too defending the indefensible everyday of my Life while believing myself to be worth nothing. Lol

[@sidstovell2177]

He looked and sounded like a sick old man to me. I know nothing about him.

[@britaom3299]

Great video, and this coming from an ex-Christian and ex-Calvinist, who used to idolize R.C. Sproul. Ironically, what got me out of Christianity was reading the Bible in the very manner that Sproul and pretty much all Reformed Protestants say that the Bible is supposed to be read: by its plain, straightforward meaning. Didn't take too long before I couldn't help but notice the dozen-plus verses in the Old Testament that clearly state that one person cannot die for the sins of another, which is what Sproul, Reformed Protestants, and almost all of mainstream Christianity REJECT with their doctrine of Christ's vicarious atonement. It also didn't take too long (i.e., by the time I had finished the third book - Leviticus!) to clearly see that the Old Testament does not at all teach that a blood sacrifice is THE necessary condition for atonement, contrary to what Christianity teaches.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you very much. So glad to hear you made it out and thanks for sharing!

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

Methinks you have 100% incorrectly interpreted what Leviticus shows... As the Book of Hebrews much later declares, "Without bloodshed there is no remission of sins."

[@britaom3299]

@@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh Why should I care about the book of Hebrews? Besides, since there are multiple examples of remissions of sins WITHOUT one drop of blood being shed throughout the Old Testament (try reading it without Christians lenses next time), even one of those examples would be enough to refute the idea that the shedding of blood is a necessary condition for atonement. Not that it matters. Anyone who thinks that there is some anthropomorphic Sky Daddy god demanding blood sacrifices here in the 21st century needs to get a grip. Sorry, but that's Bronze Age BS.

[@beammeupscotty3074]

God breaks all his own Commandments all the time and nobody ever points this out

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Sure does. I did make a whole video on though

[@rolandwatts3218]

R.C. Sproul. People rave about him. TBH, I've only ever seen a few small portions of his talks. But they have made me wonder just how happy the fellow actually was. He seemed to have been tortured on the inside, for ever trying to make himself look smaller and smaller and God bigger and bigger, as if by doing so, flattering God might get him into heaven, thus avoiding eternal torture in hell. Pine Creek had an interesting video titled "Why I no longer go to Church Sermons like these: R.C. Sproul vs R.C. Sproul", and it seems to illustrate the point. Around the 23 minute mark you see a tortured R.C. Sproul struggling to understand hell and I wonder if R.C. Sproul is not, deep inside, sh*t scared that God might have chosen him for hell. And if so, that too would be an illustration of God's perfect justice and it would be all for the glory of God. ^^ So what hope does Sproul himself actually have? His salvation surely is, nothing more than a toss of a coin. Maybe R.C. Sproul is correct and that is reality. But what a fracking stupid reality. Sproul is an example of just how idiotic and harmful various Christian theologies can be.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Going to watch that clip right away. Thanks for letting me know.

[@thegreatgazoo7579]

Remember, Sproul believes that he deserves to go to hell, and God is just. He believes that nothing he does matters, he deserves hell. He believes that God just arbitrarily picks people to exempt from heaven and be "saved". Finally he believes that only a very few get saved, the vast majority go to hell. So he should be scared! Odds are he is going to hell!

[@rolandwatts3218]

@@thegreatgazoo7579 Thank you for that. I had not realized he thought exactly that way. Poor fellow.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Creature of the dirt versus ‘made in His image’ is a perfect dichotomy/conflict. Nailed it!!!!😂

[@bradharman3470]

Former Christian here that has been loving your videos. In less than 13 minutes, you clearly demonstrate how ridiculous and corrupt faith based religous systems really are. If you ever refer to this gentlemen in the future, his name is pronounced RC Sproll as in dinner roll. He was easily in the top handful of evangelical apologist during the past hundred years.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you so much for the kind words and the pronunciation! I have been going down a rabbit hole of his since filming this one and theres much more to come so appreciate that.

[@stevewebber707]

It strikes me as incredibly disingenuous of Sproul to brush off and diminish the severity of the fall. In particular, it undercuts the need for Jesus to rescue us from it. And that's before getting into Humanity being so horribly flawed despite God creating it in his image and saying it's good. If humanity was so bad as to require such extreme measures, that points directly back to the qualities of the creator of man. The icing on that very spoilt cake was Sproul chastising the entire church "We don't know who God is, and we don't know who we are.". How are people supposed to learn about these things without asking questions? Does Sproul not grasp that accusing the church of ignorance, flows back to the source of their knowledge? I.e. his bible and his teaching about it? I don't think it at all fair to expect Christians to know those things with confidence, considering the state of the bible and Christian teachings about it. If we were to test this by asking a broad swath of Christians what it means that humans were made in God's image, I am sure we would get a very diverse set of answers, with vastly different meanings and implications.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So well put, Steve! Thank you for spelling that concept out here so clearly!

[@hamobu]

Christians need to be saved from this dogma.

[@SmartAss4123]

There's very little we can do. People are WAY harder to convinve they've been lied to. Especially after they've invested so much into something that it's part of their life. Think of like a real life investment. A man has poured his hard earnee wages and life savings into a portfolio that he's convinced will set him up for life. To tell him he wasted his savings and money for years and years just wont compute. Denial and mental protective walls to contain their own rising panic and fear comes up and their mind will go through every denial no matter how illogical first before they could even conceive of the notion they are actually wrong. This is the power of mental slavery and indoctrination from generations of blind belief.

[@RomanJockMCO]

Wow! If this male, he's not a man, had a son who rejected him would he "punish" him as severely? Why make excuses for "god"?

[@julianwahly3372]

I went to church a fundamental baptist and felt the same way, but didnt say anything. People would cry and be thankful christ died for them, very emotional, I never felt that, I didnt understandy why and everything you said in the vid. I think if most christians are honest they will acknowledge it like I did. I think I became a worse person once I started going to church. I became less tolerant and understanding, judgemental, always feeling guilty over every single thing I did for no reason, questioning everything people did (going to movies, reading comics, etc) it was miserable. I think the only reason I went was to be around peole who held alot of the morals and values I did, but I developed these on my own without ever reading the bible or going to church, I quit going when it got to personal and was told I cant date a divered woman. The theology and hypocrisy was alos getting to me.

[@ejmproductions8198]

When I was still a Sproul fan , I remember watching this and being troubled by his answer. The sin the questioner committed was asking an uncomfortable question

[@lawtonbrewer4107]

To be fair, R. C. Sproul probably needed a smoke break, being a lifelong smoker. His nicotine levels were no doubt falling during this long conference, making him cranky. But I'm glad someone else sees what a repulsive man he was. In another message, Sproul cracks up when he remembers a colleague of his saying that we'll be able to laugh if we see our mothers burning in hell once we are "glorified in Christ."

[@Jon45678]

Good one Lawton. There you go, lifelong smoker. The verses about your body being a temple and god will destroy whoever destroys their temple doesn’t matter to a Calvinist like Sproul. He is one of the chosen ones so he can sin & insult everyone because you’re either elected or not & that’s not his problem. All the unelected dirt creatures and their mommas who end up in Hell won’t be so lucky, but in the meantime he hopes they buy his books.

[@christopherknight3737]

This video was fantastic, you were really fired up on this one and I really appreciate your passion and analysis. The story of "the fall" has always been annoying to me for lots of the reasons you describe in the video. It reminds me of another self righteous Christian expression you sometimes hear when you ask someone how they are doing. The response, "better than I deserve" has always annoyed me because it is likewise predicated on the idea that humans are wretched sinful creatures only deserving of God's wrath - but fortunately God's loving kindness and grace comes to the rescue... Sigh, no wonder so many Christians are in a perpetual feedback loop of guilt, guilt, guilt. This is not a healthy way to live your life...

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks so much, man. Yes its just so sick. My wife’s friend was just bragging about how when her kids are messing up she jokes with them that they deserve death and hell! Damn this religion

[@gregcampwriter]

Sproul always struck me as someone who was highly impressed with his own scholarship and intelligence, and his arguments consistently came down something along the lines of what he said here. And if his religion were true, it would be the duty of all good people to oppose such a tyrant.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Well said!

[@yakzivz1104]

absolutely love your channel!!!

[@JimmyTuxTv]

I’ve been preaching this area of Gen is a psychological preparation for mental Enslavement. I suspect some apologists understand this too.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

How anyone can defend this at all is just baffling to me

[@onedaya_martian1238]

There are plenty of examples of how extreme ANY religion can be used as mental enslavement.

[@mjjoe76]

The guy in the thumbnail looks like Leonid Brezhnev.

[@Dieter1971]

Lol! You're right, he does.

[@nitawynn9538]

The creature from the dirt? I thought that creature was made in the image of God? How degrading!

[@fetusthegreat9797]

Some of the things these apologists say are so disrespectful and frankly disgusting toward non believers

[@theplanetruth]

I used to devour Sproul’s videos. He was a big influence in my theology 30 years ago.

[@maryoconnell4276]

Does RC kick puppies when they pee on the carpet? Someone should check his home.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I also thought how scary it would be to have this man as a father

[@DrewClark-ov5up]

I wouldn’t call my father a narcissist, but he worships a narcissistic god and Sproul is one of his favorite preachers. You can see all aspects of narcissism in this one short clip!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100%!

[@joevollbach4099]

But weren't they supposed to have clothes because now they realized that sex is a naughty thing and so nakedness is something to be ashamed of, while before they didn't see anything wrong with being naked? At least I think that's what the story was originally supposed to mean in that regard.

[@earthaforester3141]

Yeah they hide from God when they realize they are naked, because for some reason they feel ashamed of it. I really don't understand that. If being naked was something to be ashamed of, then why would God create them naked in the first place? He also blessed their sexuality by saying "be fruitful and multiply". So obviously there is nothing wrong with sex either (also, nakedness is not inherently sexual). If eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil made them aware of something "bad" about themselves, then it's because God created them with this "badness" in the first place. The fruit didn't make them bad - it just gave them awareness if it's existence. I don't even think they were knowingly disobedient; I don't think eating the fruit was even a sin. Eve believed the serpent because she didn't know any better. She had zero awareness of what deceit was, or of what it meant to disobey. And Adam ate it because he loved and trusted his partner. Even if God said "don't do this; I'll kill you" - if you trust your Creator Father to love and protect you always, and have no concept of what death or wrath even are, then what is there to heed in that warning? The warning wouldn't mean anything to Adam and Eve, because they had no way to understand why disobedience would be wrong or what would happen afterward. They were totally innocent! It's like the first time you tell your toddler "no", and they do something anyway, it's not because their nature is corrupt and they don't love or respect you - it's because they just have no concept of consequences yet. And no matter what they did - even if they hit you in the face with their fat little toddler fist and scream at you - you forgive them almost immediately, because you know they don't know any better yet. You don't kick your toddler out on the street and sic a bunch of wolves on them, and then judge them for not meeting your standards when they grow up. Nothing they are even CAPABLE of doing could warrant that severe of a reaction, because they're a child and YOU are the one responsible for them. God should understand that already. He should understand the power dynamic and the infinite difference in wisdom and knowledge that seperates him and his creation. And instead he chooses to punish everyone who will ever live - including all the plants and animals, who had nothing to do with any of this btw - for all time.... What a sick joke. Also, if the end goal is to go to heaven to be with God, and he wants us there with him, then why didn't he just forgive Adam and Eve right then and there? We WERE in heaven with God, and he ruined it. God burned down Adam and Eve's house because they accidentally ate his sandwich out of the fridge. And then he goes on about how he "wisH3s wE c0ulD all liVe t0GethEr b3cAuse hE lovEs us SOooOo mUch", and yet he CHOOSES to send the overwhelming majority of us to hell forever....???? Is this supposed to teach us something? Cuz it's clearly a pretty ineffective tool for making us loving and faithful. Generational trauma and abuse (which is what God set in motion and handed down to us) is a horrible way to motivate us to get back into his good graces. Suffering can teach us empathy and compassion, however it often fails to do so because suffering is often deeply damaging and negatively transformative. Remove suffering and you remove the need to acknowledge and heal that suffering. If God can give us perfect hearts and minds in heaven, then he could give us perfect hearts and minds on earth. We didn't need to be punished. We didn't need to ask for forgiveness for it to be granted. It could've been given freely. We didn't need to be saved, because we didn't need to be damned in the first place. Sorry this was so long. It's just an unbelievably stupid belief system that makes me sad for humanity.

[@bradypustridactylus488]

On 2001 A Space Odyssey, why did the A.I., "Hal," go berserk? He had conflicting directives that he couldn't reconcile. Christian theology has the same problem. There must be a tri-omni god, and there must be a quasi-Manichean conflict between the forces of good and evil. Why was Yahweh so angry? He was under the direction of the good and evil duality. Why were the heinous acts commanded by Yahweh permissible? Because morality is a whim of God. Is God under or above morality? It depends on whether God is subjected to or the author of morality? Reason, rules and laws change topsy-turvy to fit the particular narrative, and compartmentalization rules the day.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

What a comment! Love this line of thinking

[@DirtPoorWargamer]

For the people who think Adam & Eve lost their immortality when they ate the apple: why did Yahweh feel the need to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life? If its effects were permanent like the Tree of Knowledge, then they must not have already eaten from it, and so were not immortal to begin with. If, on the other hand, they had to keep eating from it to remain immortal, then it's Yahweh, and not the tree of Knowledge, that's responsible for their deaths by refusing to let them eat from it. So congratulations: in an attempt to rationalize a lie into a warning, you've turned it into the threat of "I'll f*ing kill you".

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha. Yup!

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

God did NOT lie when He warned the primordial couple of the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit. A better translation of the original Hebrew warning is, "On the day you eat of it, to die you shall be dying". Who can honestly deny that is what happened??

[@DirtPoorWargamer]

@@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh So I guess now it's against YT terms of service to point out when someone says something incomprehensible.

[@loriw2661]

And his brainwashed audience claps. So sad

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yrs that was the tragic part to me to

[@jonathanfarquhar]

Phenomenal question. Someone could likely talk for hours about the answer, but all he had was a word salad. The religious talk reminds me of Muslim apologists who often recite the quran in Arabic (even when no one else knows arabic). They want to show how scholarly and well-read they are and how we asking questions are simple-minded idiots.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes. Great comparison!

[@T-41]

Mythologies, every society has them. This society sure has some doozies. It doesn’t matter a great deal what crazy things people believe until they try to impose it on others. Then it damages family and friends on a personal level. At its worse the power of government gets used to control people.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Agreed!

[@chriswest8389]

Don’t drink the RC cola. Not my line.😂

[@TurkPowers]

I have seen this video of R.C. Sproul before, and it is extremely disturbing. The hatefulness of his answer tells all, as you so well pointed out. This exudes self-hate, hate of your fellow man and hatred towards questions. Don’t question God!! If you have a question, rebuke yourself and beg God for forgiveness. It was mentioned in a previous post, but this checks all the boxes of abusive relationships. How dare you question me? You are nothing without me! You deserve nothing! It is only because of me, that you’re not face down in the gutter choking own you own vomit. When God has to “Discipline” you… it like a man beating on his wife declaring, “Look at what you made me do!!!” This is abuse at its finest. But hey…. He might be abusive; however, He desires to have a relationship with us!!! That makes him good right?”

[@southernmanners1306]

Once again you analyzed everything that was wrong with this answer in such a clear and concise manner that I wonder how a “believer” could even respond? Oh yeah, I remember the rote answer to every question dared to be asked….because as the Bible states, his ways are higher than our ways lol Have a great Saturday!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha. Yup always a nonsensical excuse for everything. Thank you kindly!

[@TheRatzor]

it weird God is meant to be a loving parent! If I had kids I couldn't care how much they disobeyed me never would it ever cross my mind to demand death on them then eternal torment for failing to recognize my love for them

[@MindShift-Brandon]

As someone with two kids, it really shows how unrealistic this god is. No way anyone could hate their creation this much especially if their very nature is supposedly love

[@unknown-ot7xy]

​@@MindShift-Brandonexactly

[@jenna2431]

If you have to say "What's wrong with you people" as part of your explanation of a loving, compassionate god and a perfect plan, then...no.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Lol! So simple. Love this point

[@richardmooney383]

Yes, He spared Adam and Eve and waited a few thousand years before virtually exterminating mankind.

[@studiosandi]

Let me give an amen to mind shift❤

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You’re the best

[@steve-ok2090]

You should listen to President Russell Nelson’s most recent address in Mormonism (“think celestial”). It’s rife with all the same kind of psychological abuse and blame shifting.

[@ThePapser]

I like how Adam and Eve get blamed for ushering in sin. When exactly in the story was the world free from sin?

[@randomusername3873]

You can't even act like eve did something wrong, she was specifically made in a way that would make impossible for her to even know the concept of doing something wrong

[@_Omega_Weapon]

If god has an "image" then it's measurable.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right!

[@MarkRod9648]

Hmm, you have to understand that R.C. Sproul could have answered the question more directly, but he was addressing the "heart" issue behind it. It's like a 16-year-old grudgingly asking his parents, "If you love me so much, why do you make me do so many chores?" The question assumes a lot, such as the idea that the parents don't love the child and that making him do chores is a bad thing. Similarly, the question asked in this clip assumes that God is not long-suffering without clearly stating the basis for that judgment. Yes, the late R.C. was a brilliant theologian, and his rhetorical answer was meant to make the questioner reflect on why they think this way. R.C. has many videos where he goes in-depth on these issues; this is a short clip from a Q&A session, so expect a surface-level answer. Does everyone in a Q&A session give hour-long lectures to ensure the audience fully understands each issue? No. He thought it was more important to address the heart issue behind the question. The reason you disagree with R.C. is because you esteem man higher than what the Bible teaches. While Voddie mentioned that there is worth and magnificence in man, this is tempered by the fact that man derives it from being made in God's image. In relation to God, that "magnificence" is nothing. Two things can be true at the same time. I pray you turn away from your God-hating heart and believe in God's only Son, Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins.

[@MarkRod9648]

I recommend you look up "R.C. Sproul: What Is Evil & Where Did It Come From?" these are lofty topics and a short Q&A will not suffice if you are really looking for real answers.

[@jeremybristol4374]

Gross. You're still in the thick of it. No one is looking for answers. They're sharing because it's cathartic. And no one hates god. There is no god so there is nothing to hate. However, there definitely is negative emotions towards the emotionally manipulative techniques of the Christianity cult. If you want answers, watch the rest of his videos.

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

you're ---> your

[@utubepunk]

_We don't know who God is._ *CORRECT.*

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha!

[@geeceesteiner62]

This is a great video. Better than Mythic Vision's stuff. Really good straight talk.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh wow! that is quite the compliment. Thank you so much!

[@nezz0r]

A little correction about the nakedness part. You are right they were fine before eating that fruit with being naked. But after eating that fruit they became "aware" of being naked and even covered themselves up. Genesis 3:7 "7And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." --- Another interesting aspect is where did that: THE satan is the snake come from? I mean I know that many Christians do believe that but there is no indication that this is the case. The Information we have about the snake are: Genesis 3:1 "1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which Yahweh God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”" Genesis 3:14-15 "14And Yahweh God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than any of the cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”" So it was more crafty than the other beasts of the field and before being cursed it had some form of other limbs before.. But there is no mentioning of a third party taking possession over it or something of that nature. You may say that the snake is "A satan" though because satan means: Enemy/Adversary/Opposer. So if there is Christian reading this where do you get that Information that the snake is THE satan or possessed by it? --- I mean there are other scenarios in which interpretations are made which I believe don't match with the actual context. For example: Job 19:25 "25“As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will rise up over the dust of this world." I heard Christians use that as a foreshadowing of Jesus. But if you read the entire chapter you recognize that this may not be the case. In that chapter Job was actually against God's righteousness because of his torment through satan. Job 19:6-11 "6Know then that God has wronged me And has closed His net around me. 7¶“Behold, I cry, ‘Violence!’ but I get no answer; I shout for help, but there is no justice. 8“He has walled up my way so that I cannot pass, And He has put darkness on my paths. 9“He has stripped my honor from me And removed the crown from my head. 10“He breaks me down on every side, and I am gone; And He has uprooted my hope like a tree. 11“He has also kindled His anger against me And counted me as His adversary." Why would he call God which Christian say is Jesus in that situation as his redeemer? Let's go a bit further. Job 19:22-24 "22“Why do you persecute me as God does, And are not satisfied with my flesh? 23¶“Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book! 24“That with an iron stylus and lead They were engraved in the rock forever!" As you can see he was still complaining. And now we got this here: Job 19:25 "25“As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will rise up over the dust of this world." So who is that redeemer in the eyes of Job if we consider the texts from before? In my opinion it is someone who reads about his case and sees the same thing as he did and that is that he was righteous and didn't deserve this torment. That his torment is without reason. In short someone who understands him. Would Jesus do that if he reads about Jobs case?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Great context. Thanks

[@Nunya1387]

What doesn’t make sense about God’s reaction to sin is how were they supposed to even know they were sinning, or what that really even meant _before_ obtaining the knowledge of good and evil?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes major plot hole

[@6adget]

great episode.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank ya!

[@golfingnut1953]

I always believed in a loving God. That is not what we see today in his followers. I do not believe in any religion but do feel there is something out there…..

[@austinshaw6269]

It’s this attitude of being appalled someone would question the Everlasting Holy God that keeps people in line. I’ve been scared to challenge people like this my whole life.