Adding New Fish? How To Drip Acclimate New Fish To Your Tank

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dmichaels fish den

dmichaels fish den

Күн бұрын

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@vanessadoucette-buch1658
@vanessadoucette-buch1658 7 жыл бұрын
You have great videos! I just found your videos and they have been really helpful! Thank you! I am new to the planted tank hobby. I am trying to learn as much as I can. There is so much more to a planted tank than I imagined. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge about fish keeping!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
Vanessa - Thank your for the kind words! So glad you are enjoying them, and so glad you got into the hobby! Welcome 😀 There really is a lot to learn, and.....the more you learn, the more there is to learn..lol. While planted tanks can sometimes be more challenging, personally, I find them more rewarding. Let me know if I can help with questions along the way! I'm definitely not an expert, but have about 5 years experience now I can share 👍
@sedghammer
@sedghammer 4 жыл бұрын
Quick note - you can start the siphon without sucking on it. First submerge a good length of the side to be in the aquarium underwater so that the length fills with water. Then raise the tube up above your head and get the siphon going. As soon as it does put your finger over the end to go back into the aquarium then place in aquarium and release.
@shirtdirt1874
@shirtdirt1874 3 жыл бұрын
I can't believe no one makes an mini siphon pump for airline tubing. Looked all over the internet. They only make them for bigger tubes. This is crazy, almost every fish owner needs one.
@aris.lingad
@aris.lingad 8 ай бұрын
thanks for this but I prefer drinking aquarium water... nah I'm just kidding. thank you.
@AussieAquatic
@AussieAquatic 7 жыл бұрын
As an ex-tropical fish import manager, I can explain that bagged fish on long travel times, need to be quickly added to new clean water, because the bag water has become severely toxic. And bagged fish travelling a short time are best slowly drip acclimated. Excellent video, and great advice..
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Colin! Really glad you commented on that, as I could have done a better job explaining this is my method for short trip acclimation 👍 Mail order, long travel times, absolutely, add them quick - the ol' "plop and drop." As always, thanks for watching and for the kind words!
@AussieAquatic
@AussieAquatic 7 жыл бұрын
dmichaels fish den I wanted to clarify. Rachel O'Leary (Who is an excellent fish person) did a video where she had experienced better results for "plop and drop", which I think added to confusion out there. Long trip vs short trip determines the approach and the outcome. Explanation is everything.
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
colinbarsby agreed!! Keep spreading the good word on this - I get the sense beginners in the hobby may not always know that different acclimation techniques may be required depending on long vs short transit. also agreed, Rachel is great and really knows her stuff. I follow her channel as well. Thinking about ordering her book 👍🐠🐟I
@waisaaa
@waisaaa 5 жыл бұрын
Sorry to bother but I have a quick question. I’m upgrading from a 3g to a 10g for my betta. Should I drip acclimate him?
@pittsburghaquaria6011
@pittsburghaquaria6011 5 жыл бұрын
Jaycee wouldn’t hurt to drip acclimate your betta. Just make sure you give your new tank set up time to cycle before adding your betta. I’d recommend waiting 3 weeks after you set up your 10 gallon
@filiplaskovski9993
@filiplaskovski9993 5 жыл бұрын
Just add some seachem prime or any ammonia detoxifier to neutralise the ammonia spike when the bag is opened and then begin drip acclimating
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
GREAT advice! Especially if you are getting an online shipping of fish that have been in the bag for 24 hours or more 👍
@lemonlizard1
@lemonlizard1 Жыл бұрын
this would work well, but keep in mind that oxygen is limited when fish are in a bag for long periods of time and detoxifiers actually lower the oxygen levels. It could end up being worse in the end
@suprematica
@suprematica 8 ай бұрын
using an air line regulator is such a good idea, im collecting some shrimp tomorrow and will be using this method, thanks!
@sharronrwood4204
@sharronrwood4204 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this info. I've had a 20 gallon aquarium and just moved up to 36 gallons. I now understand why some of my new fish in the past did not last very long. And I'd like to add some otos, so thank you for helping me understand those as well
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
My pleasure, Sharron! Some fish can be more sensitive than others. Btw - with Otos...over the years I've found they really love and need greens. I feed mine spinach and zucchini a few times a week, and they live a long time. Years ago, I used to feed them wafers when I could or thought they were getting enough algae and they did ok....but when I started feeding the greens on a consistent basis, that is where I noticed a big difference in longevity. I do want to also mention that if you are ordering fish in and they have been in the bag for a long time (3 to 4 days), we don't want to acclimate in that case. In that case ammonia has built up in the bag and when you open it, when oxygen hits the bag you get a huge ph swing. So if fish are in bags for a long period of time, it's better to float the bag for temperature acclimation, then open the bag and quickly pour the water through a net so the fish are in the net, then put them into the tank. Otherwise, if you are buying fish locally or the fish have been in the bag for several hours, drip acclimation will work great - Even when buying from my local fish store 30 minutes away, I always drip acclimate to be safe, and it's been really helpful. I haven't lost any fish to acclimation in many years.. Thanks for watching!
@fredbearfazbear3328
@fredbearfazbear3328 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for now on I will be drip acclimate them to my tank.
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
My pleasure, fredbear!
@dcime1
@dcime1 2 жыл бұрын
Perfectly said and demonstrated within 7 minutes or so. Thank you!
@MaicoMoon
@MaicoMoon Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this amazing video. I've seen people use the tie a kink in the hose method, and it seemed so imprecise. I didn't know you could use those airline regulator valves to drip acclimate.
@ProffesionalZombie12
@ProffesionalZombie12 Жыл бұрын
Planning on getting Neon Tetras and Cherry Shrimp in the not-too-distant future but was super intimidated by the idea of having to "drip acclimate" them because historically I'm basically the Grim Reaper of aquatics (not on purpose, I just suck AND have bad luck). This video was really helpful in alleviating those fears, it looks a lot easier than how I pictured it in my head 😓
@pittsburghaquaria6011
@pittsburghaquaria6011 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks man! Just so happens that I had extra airline tubing and a drip regulator. Currently drip acclimating my Otto cats as I type this. First time owning these fish didn’t want to kill them lol
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Glad you had the tubing and the regulator lying around! It should really help. I've never lost an Oto to acclimation when I've drip acclimated them - one other thing that has helped me with Otos....since they are almost all wild caught and get pretty stressed in transit to the fish stores, I try to buy them right when they come in, before they endure the extra stress of being in the stores, being switched around in tanks, etc...If the little guys stay strong for the first two weeks, they usually make it for the long term. Enjoy!
@JasonFolk07
@JasonFolk07 Жыл бұрын
Great video I basically have all this stuff on hand already except the T reg i can probly get one at petsmart or homedepot... nice tank setup looking clean
@StopWhatYerDoing
@StopWhatYerDoing 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the very helpful video! I never knew drip acclimating could be so easy!
@marlaraeofsunshine
@marlaraeofsunshine 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much! This was so simple and informative. I had no idea how cheap and easy drip acclimation was! I'll use it from now on. Great video!!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
My pleasure, Marla! Glad it was helpful! Yep, easy and cheap 😀
@KushyCouch
@KushyCouch 3 жыл бұрын
This helped a lot. A friend gave me their 55 gallon tank and their huge rainbow shark (4-5 inches) and I accidentally killed it when I didn’t acclimate it right. I did it right with the pea puffers I moved into it instead
@jessicam2913
@jessicam2913 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! Informative and helpful thanks. I am planning on using this method when I add fish next and your detailed instructions and example make me feel like I can be successful.
@ltlbear05
@ltlbear05 5 жыл бұрын
This is incredibly helpful thank you! I’m new to fishkeeping and am trying to learn all I can!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
My pleasure! Glad it was helpful!! Thanks for checking out the video 😀
@nathanielkswas
@nathanielkswas 5 жыл бұрын
Brilliantly presented, thank you! You earned a sub!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Nathaniel - thank you for the very kind words! Proud to have you aboard!
@TheWinger1008
@TheWinger1008 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this tip. I'll use this method from now on. It just makes sense. Good job!
@alexline4131
@alexline4131 4 жыл бұрын
Gravel-vac clip? That's a thing? I've been using the loopy-bits on a binder-clip!
@pingktbd
@pingktbd 3 жыл бұрын
This is nice and easy to follow!! Thanks for sharing this video💙
@shirtdirt1874
@shirtdirt1874 3 жыл бұрын
I can't believe no one makes an mini siphon pump for airline tubing. Looked all over the internet. They only make them for bigger tubes.
@cdropbox
@cdropbox 2 жыл бұрын
this is fantastic. please make more content
@johhnypieters7598
@johhnypieters7598 6 жыл бұрын
great video, will try this for the next few fish I get ad thanks
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
Johnny - thanks for the kind words! A lot of people tell me this is overkill, but I've never lost a fish due to acclimation. Here is the one exception - if you are ordering fish online and they are in the bag for several days, they will have an ammonia build up. In that case, you want to just dump the bag out in a net and put them in. If the fish haven't been in the bag for a few days, I would drip acclimate 👍
@johhnypieters7598
@johhnypieters7598 6 жыл бұрын
lost $100.00 of fish , it was good that they were not in my main tank
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
Johnny - I'm really sorry to hear that. All of us, if we keep with this hobby, lose fish. I just had two fish jump out of my tank two nights ago and two Amano shrimp climb out and walk across my entire apartment to the kitchen, dying in the process. All we can do is learn how to best take care of our pets, and if we are doing are best, nothing to fault there. We just have to do the best we can. They are animals and they will do what they do. I'm not sure that helps much, but I'm here for you if you need to vent a bit.....
@anoobis_
@anoobis_ 3 жыл бұрын
Acclimated my new tetras manually with my mouth today lmao. I mean if it works, it aint stupid. (got some of the water in my mouth. The tannins tasted kinda bitter.)
@MiltonDelaney
@MiltonDelaney 7 жыл бұрын
Great video, my friend! I will incorporate this technique when I add fish. I'm a new subscriber!!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
Appreciate the kind words, Milton, and proud to have you on board! I'm glad the video was helpful. (As I knock on wood), I've never lost a fish due to acclimation when I've drip acclimated. As a best practice I always follow this method...just in case :)
@MiltonDelaney
@MiltonDelaney 7 жыл бұрын
dmichaels fish den Hey! I journeyed out to my LFS in search of a new fish or two to add to my mini aqua world to drip acclimate but didn’t see anything I liked. I had added two Otocinclus to my 75gal community tank the day before I saw your video and wanted to pick up a few more but they were sold out due to a sale. I’m patient! In the meantime I’ll check out some of your other videos.
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
Patience is key in this hobby! Definitely be picky - it's worth it! When the time is right, the time is right my friend. Wait until the LFS has something nice and healthy you really want 👍
@DebsInManchesterUK
@DebsInManchesterUK 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks I going to buy some shrimp today for my 10 gallon this video is useful for me I never owned shrimp before I putting them in my tank that has neon tetras in wish me luck Hope the neons do not think I bought them a big dinner lol
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Lol - go get 'em Debbie! Nah, the neons won't even notice...they might even run away from the shrimp 😉But good luck and have a lot of fun! I remember when I bought my first shrimp years ago...very cool experience.
@ArticulatedDoom
@ArticulatedDoom Жыл бұрын
Not sure how I ended up on your videos, but I keep expecting to hear, "Hi, I'm Troy McClure! You might know me from other KZbin fish videos such as,..."
@coldtex9324
@coldtex9324 Жыл бұрын
Very helpful. Thank you.
@teaforthree1
@teaforthree1 4 жыл бұрын
Another great video
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the kind words Henry and thanks for watching!
@ShomariMason
@ShomariMason 3 жыл бұрын
Perfect guide! Thanks!
@carl1964carl
@carl1964carl 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the demo
@sukaira6465
@sukaira6465 4 жыл бұрын
Super helpful .thanks
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
My pleasure, Skyrocket! Glad it was helpful1
@carleenbartunek1733
@carleenbartunek1733 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you. Very helpful video.
@WestTacomaSoundArchive
@WestTacomaSoundArchive 7 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 7 жыл бұрын
CapnMow5 my pleasure!
@mikaelafox6106
@mikaelafox6106 6 жыл бұрын
New subscriber. Glad I found this video. Would you say to drip acclimate fish that you’re moving from one tank to another? I have two bettas, an make and a female. Female is in a 3.7 tank with a cory catfish, male is alone in a 5 gallon. I was going to switch them because the cory looks miserable in the small tank. He’s going to go back into my cousin’s 10 gallon once she can get him some roommates. Until then he’s rooming with her. She’s the sweetest betta! Doesn’t seem to care at all about other fish. Cory had been with the male but Blue kept attacking and chasing the cory.
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
Hi Mikaela - Proud to have you on board! Great idea moving the Cory - they do need a little more room. And all Bettas have different personalities, as you've probably seen. 😀I have one Betta now who doesn't mind any tankmates, but the one I had before had a vendetta against snails and would always attack them 🙄With drip acclimation, you really only need to do that when you have a big difference between water parameters. But, you can certainly always do it - it's the safest way to introduce a fish into a new environment. I drip acclimate every fish, unless they are going from one of my tanks to another. If you test your cousin's water and the pH is about the same as yours, no real need to drip acclimate. You just want to acclimate to temperature in that case. However, if your cousin's pH is very different, yes, I would drip acclimate to be safe. If you live close to eachother, though, the water parameters should be the same, and you really only need to drip acclimate for 15 minutes in a bag for temperature. Hope that helps and glad the video was helpful!
@mikaelafox6106
@mikaelafox6106 6 жыл бұрын
dmichaels fish den That is a huge help! I love the personality differences with the bettas. I’ve always been curious about them and my cousin introduced me to fish caretaking. My male betta will hunt for anything, except for the nerite snails I have in there with him, though I’ve never seen him hurt or kill anything. I also have a couple of small amano shrimp in with him and I’ve seen him pointedly looking for them. At any rate, thanks for the fast reply! It’s a huge help indeed. I’m looking to get maybe two more corys to see if that will help the lone cory and cal him. Right now he swims up and down a lot along the side of the 3.7 tank. Hopefully I can do that safely until I can get a bigger tank!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
Welcome to the hobby! It's a fantastic one and you'll love it. Bettas are amazing, they do learn to recognize you over time, and all of them have different personalities. The Amano shrimp should be fine - they are pretty good at holding their own :) Glad everything was helpful! Let me know if I can help further!
@mikaelafox6106
@mikaelafox6106 6 жыл бұрын
dmichaels fish den Thanks for the advice! I moved them around today and they seem to like it. This way the cory will be able to get one or two buddies now that he’s in the 5 gallon tank. Yes, my female ( a red/copper betta that Petco called an assorted female) is super sweet! Blue, my male, is feisty! I’d love to get him into a bigger tank. In your experience, do bettas seem to prefer smaller or larger tanks? Or maybe it depends on the betta? I could only get up to a 10 gallon tank tops, but I want to make sure my fish, even inherited ones, are as happy as they can be.
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
Mikaela - Only speaking from experience here, but in my experience - I tend to think that Bettas like slightly larger tanks than smaller. Just because they can possibly be fine in a 2.5 gallon tank doesn't mean they really love it. If the price was the same, would we rather have a studio apartment or a 2 bedroom? :) I happen to think a 10 gallon tank is perfect for a Betta, and my Bettas have always done best in 10 gallon tanks (which is what Patriot is in now...also the one in the acclimation video). It's enough room for them to feel like they have a territory (they love staking out a territory) without it being overbearing, it's enough room for them to swim around, but not too much, etc...You can also give them a few "roommates" in a 10 gallon tank and there is still, well, room. My second favorite would be a 5 gallon tank, but you are limited to "roommates" in a 5 gallon - I tried a Betta in my 20 gallon once, and he was running around all the time getting exhausted trying to establish the whole thing as his territory. In order of favorites I'd say: 10, 5, 15. But that is just my experience :)
@DEXTER-TV-series
@DEXTER-TV-series 2 жыл бұрын
So what is the method applies to fish been in the bag for very long ?
@SandSnowMXGirl
@SandSnowMXGirl 5 жыл бұрын
Very helpful thank you!
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Very glad it was helpful!
@The_Trojan
@The_Trojan Жыл бұрын
Is the assumption here that the temperature difference that will occur between the bag and the aquarium doesn't really matter? Would it not still be an option to put the bag in the aquarium for 15 mins to align the water temps?
@BigDavos
@BigDavos 6 жыл бұрын
Hey what kind of tank is that you are using and how many gallons? Great video
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 6 жыл бұрын
freshlyunreal - thanks for the kind words! This is a 10 gallon Aqua H20 rimless tank. I wasn't familiar with the brand - picked it up at my local fish store. 😀But it's been doing really well for me for years 👍 Thanks for watching the video!
@ASlickNamedPimpback
@ASlickNamedPimpback 5 жыл бұрын
Knew a guy who poked a tiny hole near the top of the bag and then put it in the aquarium, both temperature and drip acclimating at the same time. By a miracle of god most fish lived, but is that an actually viable way to drip acclimate?
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Hafelord - I guess you could...thats interesting. I'm not sure how that would work though? -Once you poke a hole the bag would deflate...I'm not sure how you would control the water flow as a slow drip into the actual water that is in the bag when its a flattened bag...does the hole size control the flow? What if the bag collapses on top and the hole is closed? Lol....I'm just trying to think how this would work in my head. It wouldn't be the way I would prefer to drip acclimate, but I've never tried the method...maybe there is some way it works. At the end of the day, you just want tank water dripping into the bag about a drop per second for 15 - 20 minutes. However that gets done....
@Scouse.raver1
@Scouse.raver1 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video only good video I can find everything else was just pure waffle haha. I once killed a group of swordtails w plop and drop I only bought them 20 minutes away from my house but the next day they were all dead 😶👍 I think drip acclimation is better sometimes like for PH differences
@steve_the_springtails
@steve_the_springtails 4 жыл бұрын
Super helpful maybe my next batch of shrimp willnt die because im a dumbass
@KarAashika
@KarAashika 3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant!
@sheilaedmonds5306
@sheilaedmonds5306 Жыл бұрын
How does temperature remain consistent with a longer drip acclimation? I find that temperature is lost with this method. My angel fish are very sensitive and have had problems. Any suggestions?
@KathyLankford-u1h
@KathyLankford-u1h 10 ай бұрын
I wondered the same thing.
@NCHerpers
@NCHerpers 5 жыл бұрын
I want one angel fish I have a 35 gallon one albino bristle nose pleco tetras mollies and 2 dwarf gaourmais and a yolo loach the amount of teatras 4, I also have ph 7.1 to 7.5 I will do this will they
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Owen - that's a good mix of fish! Very nice! You should be fine putting in an angel with them. 👍Definitely give the drip acclimation a try...as long as it isn't a fish you are getting through the mail that has been in the bag for a few days....if that is the case, just temperature acclimate in the bag and put the angel in as fast as you can. Otherwise, if you are getting the angel from a local store and it has only been in the bag for a few hours, drip acclimation should work well 👍
@Satan-Is-a-Lawyer
@Satan-Is-a-Lawyer 2 жыл бұрын
Do we have to leave them in the bag or can we put them in bucket?
@niko69692
@niko69692 5 жыл бұрын
What is your water tds?? The place where I live has extreme hard water... My tap water TDS is 620.. Is this safe for plants and fish(betta)??
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Taco - You've got me on this one...I've never actually tested my TDS, though I have a meter on order. I'm curious as to where I'm at - my water isn't extremely hard or soft - I'm very fortunate in that it is right in the middle....BUT I will let you know! I need to dig in more on TDS. Honestly have no idea if 620 is safe for plants and betta fish! BUT, like a lot of us, I'm still learning myself after 7 years!
@sandipcreation9499
@sandipcreation9499 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@eb4676
@eb4676 4 жыл бұрын
What the method for mail in saltwater fish ???
@hyperaggressive5690
@hyperaggressive5690 5 жыл бұрын
Do we have to keep the light off for 24 hours or is less fine?
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 5 жыл бұрын
Hyper Aggressive an excellent question. I know as a safety precaution, you’ll read a lot about keeping the lights off for 24 hours to help the fish acclimate better, and that isn’t wrong information. It certainly helps and in general is a good practice, so it’s good advice. It certainly helps acclimation more than it hurts it. All that being said, I can share my experience. I’ve done different things - have kept lights off for 24 hours, kept lights off for 10 hours, didn’t turn the lights off at all....the fish were fine each time. So if you don’t quite have the lights off for 24 hours, if you have them off for less time, I think you’ll be just fine 👍. It is good to dim lights or have them off for several hours after acclimation, but don’t feel like you need to go a full 24 if you can’t do that 😀. Hope that helps!
@hyperaggressive5690
@hyperaggressive5690 5 жыл бұрын
@@dmichaelsfishden thank you so much! I recently bought 10 pairs of cardinal and neon tetras , 3 swordtails and 4 siamese alage eaters and so far so good👍 I kept the lights off for 10 hrs only
@Giggz05
@Giggz05 4 жыл бұрын
How would you know if the fish is sensitive or not 🤔
@dmichaelsfishden
@dmichaelsfishden 4 жыл бұрын
Giggz - we can really only tell with experience. Fish that are wild caught (like otocinclus as an example) can be more sensitive at the start. They just aren't used to aquarium conditions. When fish are wild caught it is a much more stressful experience for them to be transported to wholesalers, then to the local fish stores. Other fish can be more sensitive than others, but when you read about that, it is usually people that have long years experience in the hobby and with certain fish. Over the years, as hobbyists have experimented with different fish, they have learned which fish are more sensitive to acclimation than others. For me, as a general rule, I treat wild caught fish as more sensitive than other aquarium fish hatched or born in tanks at a breeder. Hope that helps a little!
@smirbelbirbel
@smirbelbirbel 4 жыл бұрын
I would say it doesn't really matter either. Just choose a slow drip and take a few more hours, go safe. You will have your fish for years, so patience in the beginning will pay off. :)
@ColossalSwordFormAndTechnique
@ColossalSwordFormAndTechnique 4 жыл бұрын
Never let the fish suffocate in it's own toilet bag water. 1. Float the bag for 3 ro 5 mins 2. Cut open bag 3. Quickly but gently grab fish with hand into aquarium or pond. Never, ever let the fish sit in it's own waste water in bag for more than 10 seconds. Your fish will have fin burn and gill damage. 😎😤 Think of it like this, would you like it if someone made you swim in your toilet? Hmmm? 🙄😌😏
@benfoster3304
@benfoster3304 4 жыл бұрын
Drip acclamation is a bad idea
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