Addressing the Anti-Feminism Criticisms From Reddit

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#vaush

[@testoftempest]

thumbnail inspiration kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6K7mmuNoraSja8

[@KrowwJaeger]

Still an absolute banger

[@xoxonaotchan_7902]

Dude i barly know anything about you but i love that you remember that. I try to show people john sometimes. The one old tuber worth remembering

[@birdhat8298]

I instantly recognized the reference and it totally made my day. Thanks Tempest.

[@eccentriastes6273]

Oh god I forgot all about this classic.

[@CPSPD]

@Hockeygod98 genitaliah

[@Croc]

It feels Vaush sticks with the "woman bad" joke while also simultaneously saying that "men bad" jokes are bad. I understand the importance for advocating for Men's rights to attempt to pull in more men, but I wish I could be more included and not have to listen to jokes that punch down at me for my identity. also I hate men bad jokes just to clarify

[@CanteLizzie]

Yeah a bit silly to call out Kurtis Connor for saying "men bad" as a joke if he says "women bad" as a joke. I mean there is a different but still kind of weird.

[@ff-qf1th]

men bad jokes usually aren't jokes in the same way though

[@IO9802]

@@CanteLizzie Did you watch the video? Vaush makes women bad jokes in regard to incels. Connor makes men bad jokes in regard to _men._ He also straight up says "men bad" without irony.

[@CanteLizzie]

@@IO9802 Ok well I wouldn't say Kurtis is serious in his "men bad" jokes. I don't think you could seriously argue that he dislikes men. I just think it's a touch hypocritical for condemning someone else for saying "men bad" jokes while saying "women bad." I think both kinds of jokes are dumb. The whole point is that it's isolating to hear these jokes. That's why Vaush condemns Kurtis, but his "women bad" jokes result in the same issue.

[@luxborealis]

Conclusion: Women good, men good, Professor Flowers bad, Destiny... Destiny.

[@glumdrop4672]

The problem is irony is dead and slipping back and forth between sincerity and irony is often a weaselly tactic bigots use to get their point across, so yeah makes sense it wouldn't sit well with some. Context does make a ton of difference though.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Well thought-out take.

[@earthlingphilosophy3531]

A lot of people can’t tell if it’s ironic and a lot of the time it just comes off as objectifying

[@rishabhanand4973]

his defense is that he makes it pretty obvious when he's being ironic and when he is, he isn't actually giving real argument for misogynists to latch onto. If someone becomes a misogynist just from hearing "femoids bad", likee not even "women" or "females" but "femoids", then they probably already were misogynists.

[@industrialalliance9905]

As an avid Vaush fan whose a woman I have felt slightly put off sometimes but his more edgy woman jokes. But I stay because I relate to his mindset about politics alot. He gets it. Edit: Turns out I'm nonbinary

[@chiveshorses9459]

Avid woman 😂

[@thatdarnskag5043]

LOL I can't help but think that "avid" is in weird spot in that sentence.

[@Swarmie]

@@thatdarnskag5043 im glad i wasnt the only one who noticed xd

[@industrialalliance9905]

@@thatdarnskag5043 i meant Avid V aush fan

[@SA-mo3hq]

I'm a dude but I'm fairly noncommital about it. Take it or leave it really.

[@Liz-xq2wi]

My issue isn’t with Vaush making these jokes, it’s more his chat parroting them and making them ‘ironically’. Takes me back to 2016. I once donated to say that I appreciate him making spaces safer for women and men by talking about women’s issues and the response was a bunch of ew femoid jokes. Just felt really weird, I guess. I find myself watching more Hasan these days.

[@georgecoconut8164]

@Cornelia he will never stop and that's fine

[@otto_jk]

A lot of those people were probably literally children

[@revenge3265]

@Cornelia Why though? Calling someone a "pussy" or a "dick/dickhead" does absolutely no harm.

[@Robiness]

Yeah i relate to that. The femoid jokes can be funny in context and i think Vaush usually does it right but if his entire chat consistently turns into a "ew femoid" every time someone makes themselves known as a woman it's... little uncomfy.

[@SoSoMikaela]

@@kjk607 Seriously? 2016 as in peak gamergate/anti-SJW/incel Internet shenanigans. The OP isn't saying she donated to Vaush in 2016, just that the behavior is reminiscent of the sort of online atmosphere at the time.

[@DragonArtstudioINC]

I’m not tryin to be a squeaky wheel, because I do love Vaush and his content. I think it’s great that he talks about feminism from the perspective of how it affects men, it’s a perspective that doesn’t get talked about, is ignored, or completely discarded as a valid point by other bad feminists. But, the problem I see here is a combination of factors that makes the community less appealing to women, the ironic misogyny being one of them. Combine that with the lack of discussion of feminist issues from a woman’s perspective, and the edgy dude-gamer atmosphere and I can see why a lot of other women might look at the community and not see it as something for them. As a woman myself I’ve found myself both laughing and cringing at the ironic femoid jokes, because it’s obvious they’re jokes. At the end of the day I guess it just depends on the kind of community he wants to cultivate.

[@Maehedrose]

Boo hoo, then let them go to one of the female streamers and actually support them until they become as popular and influential.

[@emmavetter4176]

@@Maehedrose very helpful reply /s

[@kstar1489]

@@Maehedrose as if one can’t do both. You assume “these women” don’t already do that

[@Maehedrose]

@@kstar1489 I never underestimate a woman's ability to whine even when she's getting what she wants by going into the next room.

[@AD-qc5zd]

Aaand open misogyny holy shit is this actually a thing?

[@gmansplit]

As a dude, I can confidently say that I am more of a feminist now than I was before I started watching Vaush, for whatever that's worth, though I do think some more segments on feminism as it relates to women specifically would be good.

[@Cookberg]

I have to say I pretty much fully agree

[@judas4544]

a feminism 101 segment would be tight. just like a light overview of the different waves and the positives/negatives of each.

[@wanderingcommenter4638]

For me i don't support feminist whatsoever, not because is about supporting woman but because of my view from the past, since the first time i Saw feminist is the radical one, attacking men's for no reason and blaming men's for everything plus saying that woman suffers the most in this world and that's make me angry as those are not true, there's more suicide by men's than women's in this world (and i was one of them but luckily i get a hold of myself) and man's are always the one that's gonna be in the "front-line" since the possibly of a war is pretty high between US and China and men's are the one that is gonna get drafted while woman don't, so we will die guaranteed

[@soupalot]

This is reassuring to hear. I do worry about the woman bad jokes that are common on his streams. I know he is joking but just worry knowing KZbin’s average demographic. We don’t exactly have a lot of representation on KZbin lol

[@soupalot]

@@wanderingcommenter4638 yeah ^^^ this is the sort of attitudes Vaush needs to realise it can propagate. Just gross

[@Marcela-tx7gh]

The "femoids bad" jokes don't bother *me* because they're usually too silly to take seriously, and I've seen Vaush go to bat for women before (PP stream, several segments, etc.), but I can see why they would bother other people. My concern with jokes like this is that they run the risk of being perceived as endorsement by the people who say things like that but mean it. I'd love to see a video that talks about women's liberation in the context of socialism, because I don't remember having ever seen any video that discusses both subjects in tandem. I know Vaush has read all theory, so he could accomplish that handily, but I'd be interested in watching a video like that from any content creator, really.

[@unprofessionallyamateur6354]

Yeah I could see some people taking it as endorsement but I’d also say anything open sexism/alt-right behaviour within the community would be quickly stamped out

[@ngotemna8875]

Very good segment idea. Would like to see it, too

[@moksha8473]

Jesus, what a sad, sad precedent your logic sets: we should organise our speech around the perpetual fear that others could use it for more nefarious ends? Way to admit defeat before even fighting.

[@nymade4130]

@@moksha8473 Leftism is when no funny

[@Marcela-tx7gh]

@@unprofessionallyamateur6354 I do think Vaush and his community at large are pretty good at making it clear this sort of thing is not okay. I think it's mostly a problem with those right-wing types that tune in occasionally and might think he's using humor to mask his true feeling, as they tend to do.

[@SoSoMikaela]

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way about Vaush's ironic femoid jokes is that women are the only marginalized group that he does this kind of thing to. Not that it'd be any better if he made jokes about any other group as well but like...that fact alone does make me feel a tiny bit targeted and I get plenty of that elsewhere. That's just not what I'd prefer to experience while watching a leftist streamer, even when I know he's very much a feminist and it is not _meant_ to do harm.

[@hobosorcerer]

Try doing it towards any other marginalized group, and it sounds pretty bad in comparison.

[@jidk6565]

I Kinda disagree Black separatists, Terfs, some LGBT individuals who have VDS along with other groups have actively used jokes he's made against their marginalized groups as ways to describe him as the definition of evil

[@soupalot]

Yeah this is very true. He wouldn’t make ironic transphobic jokes. This segment wasn’t great.

[@otto_jk]

@@soupalot the difference tho is that trans rights are currently in social discourse. A lot more people are transfobic than misogynist and trans issues are not as well known as women's right issues. Most people even though they wouldn't use the label are quite feminist. Basically only the Christian right and fascists are against values of feminism. That's why you can make ironic sexist jokes without the fear that it'll cause something negative. Trans rights on the other hand are a hotbutton issue and people don't have as good understanding of them. That's why irony is harder to catch and a lot of people would think the transphobic joke is sincere. People would then hold on to those transphobic ideas causing negative effects to trans people.

[@Miguel-dy3us]

If you want to really learn about left stuff (or anything) youtube channels like Vaush are not the best place. If you want to study complex things you have to read, and read a lot. It's just the way it is. I dont know, if i'm watching some streamer or youtube video, it must be somewhat entertaining. If Vaush (sorry to break to you, but Vaush is just a normal person who knows hardly nothing or nothing about everything that he talks about) would only talk about politcs objectively like a robot it would be really not interesting . I watch Vaush because of his personality, if a really only want learn something from him I wouldn't be learning from him in the first place because he is not the person and youtube is not the best place for that. So, if you took away from him what make him watchable... I dont know...

[@skylark6167]

I kind of agree with the criticism. I don't think the ironic misogyny is super bad in itself, but it's a little uninviting. It seems to overpower any positive discussion on women, and it does seem quite disproportionate compared to edgy humour regarding any other group.

[@CanteLizzie]

I agree. I don't think the jokes are sexist or harmful at all but it just makes it feel like a dudes only space.

[@dimthecat9418]

I agree

[@apricotcat1542]

I think its because that's the ~only~ way he addresses women's issues pretty much. Not that he isn't a feminist be he just refuses to add to the conversation because "other creators do it enough". Like dude, you have a platform, use it

[@dimthecat9418]

@@apricotcat1542 exactly

[@rishabhanand4973]

@@apricotcat1542 he would probably say that he _is_ using his platform by adding a perspective you may not get from other lefty youtubers

[@navyblue9355]

it's like Vaush forgets about the concept of punching down when it comes to women but not any other groups so the 'ironic' jokes don't come off as all that ironic. "You get more leeway when you're left leaning" no Vaush, you get more leeway when you're a woman. If it makes women, the people who you're only joking about 'ironically', uncomfortable that is real harm. Real harm isn't defined as a misogynistic community, making shitty jokes ironically that still hurt women is also real harm.

[@bvishal2kn]

this punch up & down dichotomy you have is inaccurate. Women are not all oppressed & men are not all oppressors. it intersects with race, wealth, gender & sexuality. Expecting half of the human population to always be kept above any form of satire & parody is a ridiculous expectation.

[@it-s-a-mystery]

How many women need to take legitimate offense for "women to be upset put off" by these jokes?

[@roberthuman8091]

If “femoid bad” comes off as anything but ironic to you that’s kind of a you problem.

[@et5600]

@@bvishal2kn It wouldn't take all men to be oppressors and all men to be oppressed for this to be an issue. Intersectionality, you see.

[@luxborealis]

Is it really harmful though? I am not sure mildly annoying women who already are on the left anyway really counts as real harm. Though I suppose you could argue it could turn off somebody only just exploring breadtube for the first time, or hurt the confidence of certain neurodivergent women.

[@revenge3265]

The whole "Only x is qualified to talk about x issues" thing is REALLY stupid to me. As a black person, I feel far more comfortable with Vaush talking about Black issues than someone like Candace Owens. As someone in the LGBTQ+ community, I feel like idk Xanderhal would be much better with issues than Blaire White or Dave Rubin. Hell to bring it back full circle, some of the worst takes I've heard on mens issues have been made by men and some of the best have been made by women.

[@lsmmoore1]

The disabled (especially neurodiversity) community has a saying that I think captures the intended idea better than "if you're not x you're not qualified to speak about x". That saying is "Nothing About Us Without Us", and it means - when speaking about issues faced by a marginalized group, take their perspective into account and don't just go off the narrative in your head. Unfortunately, this is a big problem for autistic people, there are a lot of narratives about things like how "real" autistic people want their autism to go away even though like 90% of autistic people don't want that no matter how disabled they are (because nobody wants to cure a disability by effectively trading away their souls and letting an entirely different soul move into their body permanently like something out of a horror/dystopia film).

[@balanardodia1132]

Idpol is a thing so ingrained in the left, that even vaush community that voice out that idpol is dumb sometimes goes to use very idpol heavy ideas like this. I really wish we could discuss issues for their merit without a blanket "You have to listen to X group" as a catch all term to try and make arguments sound bad.

[@revenge3265]

@@lsmmoore1 Now that's something I can get behind. Much better than "you have to be x to talk about x".

[@lsmmoore1]

@@revenge3265 And it captures what I believe to be the intended nuances o that message much better. Because it's about perspective, and not excluding the POV of the marginalized folks you are talking about. Which in practice means listening to their voices as well as voices who are not part of that group talking about it, since members of those groups tend to have voices they are willing to use.

[@lordhegel600]

It's not only stupid to you, it's a classic logical fallacy (argumentum ad hominem).

[@noctash]

Long time fan siding with the comments that there is no harm in toning down edgy humor as it relates to sexism. One small nitpick in his arguments in this video is saying being a leftist gives you more room to make sexist jokes and comparing it to reclaimed slurs. Being a leftist is not an identity based in immutable characteristics, reclaiming slurs/jokes is done on the basis of identity, not beliefs. Also I feel like the bigger problem is chatters (largely young men) that mimic Vaush's humor and repeat it without the same nuance. Even if he has said he hasn't seen *unironic* sexism, it definitely is perpetuated on the ironic level. I remember the same thing happening with antisemitism in this community, chatters echo posting anything conspiratorial without realizing it was antisemitic. Overall I don't think the content loses anything by ditching the femoid jokes.

[@bvishal2kn]

Expecting half of the human population to always be kept above any form of satire & parody is a ridiculous expectation.

[@navyblue9355]

@@bvishal2kn yes, which is why that isn't what this comment is saying at all

[@bvishal2kn]

@@navyblue9355 Ok then, guess you don't have a problem with vaush's jokes then.

[@et5600]

@@bvishal2kn Your argument just proves why it shouldn't be done. If half of the population is affected by bigoted cultural tendencies, like humor as one example, it doesn't work well with a common leftist goal (maximizing happiness) to perpetuate those tendencies. You can joke in many ways about a person, you don't need to essentialize it with gender, race, sexual orientation. You really wouldn't consider this argument if it was about a racial joke.

[@ff-qf1th]

@@et5600 "half the population is affected by bigoted cultural tendencies" do you think men aren't harmed by the patriarchy??

[@kenpatchiramasama1076]

this man will read all these criticisms and yet not even confirm his role as wario in The Mario Movie 2 (2022) or the date of a battletech stream. truly radlib materiel smh

[@Kevo6492]

Is that by the studio behind all those Pixar knockoffs?

[@a_commenter]

5:33 that feels really bad faith, they're not saying "invite more women on", they're saying "invite more experts on their issues on", which is not tokenizing any group.

[@DunklerZebralord]

Something people don’t seem to understand is that if you experience a lot of a certain type of discrimination you really don’t enjoy more of it in spaces that are supposed to advocate for you. Or not just supposed to but actually do like Wöüsh. Like I’m a dude, for me it’s racism. I’m absolutely capable of differentiating between someone being a completely overblown satirical caricature and someone actually making implicitly or even explicitly racist jokes. But I get so many of the latter specifically addressed at me - why would I want more of that “ironically”? By the way, this includes other POC making these sorts of jokes, be it as a coping mechanism or for other reasons. Vaush sometimes has this edgy dismissive mindset that reminds you of a rightwinger, consistently arguing against anyone who dares be offended and always strawmanning that people are offended to begin with when he makes these wahmen bad jokes. No, it’s just tiresome and not funny anymore for some. I won’t cancel you, I’ll just not have it in me anymore to watch your content. Now Vaush can say he doesn’t give a shit about some random individual viewer but it adds up and his goal has repeatedly been stated as reaching as many people as possible. So it’s up to him to decide whether the jokes or the chance of making more people stay around, in this case women specifically, which of the two is more important to him.

[@lindensalter6713]

Thank you for putting it into words! As a woman who grew up being explicitly taught my “role” in society, sexist jokes always run me the wrong way. I get he doesn’t mean them but they hit my feelings around this topic regardless. Like the sandwich making joke I can only roll my eyes and be annoyed regardless of context bc it still brings up blatant misogyny.

[@notthis9586]

That is a completely understandable take. The jokes don't bother me becuase I have not had to deal with the same things as you, and I was going to defend at least the concept of them as something that helps former fence sitters like me make the transition to leftism, it's still edgy internet humor, but used to help me swallow the stuff that made me a better more thoughtful person... but yeah they must be really off putting if you encounter the unironic versions of them in your life.

[@bvishal2kn]

Expecting half of the human population to always be kept above any form of satire & parody is a ridiculous expectation. People try to turn every lefty space into a hyper fragile, insufferably sensitive, always live on eggshell cesspools. Please go somewhere else, most lefty spaces have caved anyway, you don't have to ruin everything.

[@bvishal2kn]

@Cornelia this isn't mild criticism, people on the left have become hypersensitive to mild & harmless jokes. Vaush doesn't even do that many jokes anymore because of this. Yet people in the comments are Lying about how he "CONSTANTLY makes these jokes".

[@nmclick]

@@bvishal2kn ive laughed at every femoid/racism joke vaush has ever said and i still can understand why people are turned off by his edgy humor. you're unironically proving the criticisms are justified by being a 'lil reactionary bitch.

[@attentivechair3248]

I'm a woman and i love Vaush but the ironic misogyny puts me off. I think the damage here is that we hear a lot guys being misogynist and then when we get to our safe political space with Vaush we hear the same shit and it chips away at you. It doesn't always help that you say its a joke because a lot of guys say that, that it's a joke and they can't possibly be misogynistic. I think if you wanna keep hiding under that joke argument it would behoove you to be ironically racist and homophobic and all sorts of other things too. But i bet you wouldn't do that because there would be worse backlash. Anyway, love you, man. Hope you figure it out.

[@politicrack]

If you want a safe space go play minecraft on a shitlib server tbh

[@LimeyLassen]

I wish he'd do a segment on microagressions.

[@attentivechair3248]

@@LimeyLassen Oh yeah. I dont remember him doing such a segment.

[@lindensalter6713]

Yeah I agree with how his ironic misogyny makes me feel but I don’t think being ironically racist will help at all. The ironic misogyny will still be the same but now he’s doing the same POC. How would that make it better?

[@lindensalter6713]

@@LimeyLassen THIS RIGHT HERE! So many people understand blatant bigotry is wrong but still get really dismissive and argumentative when you bring up micro aggressions you experience

[@Morgan.Farkind]

The wedge issue for me is that Vaush calls women bitches when he can get away with it. It isn't just women he doesn't like (which is smart cause if enough people liked them he'd get called out), it's women that most of if not all progressives don't like (Sinema, Tulsi, Owens, Fox pundits, etc). It's fucking weird. Vaush has all kinds of tbh witty and funny condemnations for male and/or other minority ghouls on the right but if they're a woman he almost always hits them with the very specific gendered insult of bitch. I don't like it and gives really negative context for all the seemingly harmless jokes he makes, because now I honestly can't tell what he actually thinks of women. Just because they're evil and happen to be a woman, it doesn't mean he gets to denegrate their womanhood.

[@laurelalloro]

Like it's wrong to call reprehensible trans or gay people slurs, but it's okay if they're cis women? I've been a fan for a long time but I'm noticing this pattern combined with never really addressing the criticism. It feels painfully non self aware at best

[@thesmatorexperience]

I don't think you can call bitch a slur really. It's widely accepted as just a normal if not profane word.

[@leilameow9582]

@@laurelalloroI’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, misogyny is the most acceptable and normalized form of prejudice

[@leilameow9582]

@@thesmatorexperienceapart from that, he does seem somewhat hostile and hold women to some degree of contempt. I heard he was even kicked off from his debate with destiny because he was sexually harassing a female streamer on there.

[@rockmycd1319]

@@leilameow9582Ableism is both more normalized and impossible to avoid.

[@katelynlamatry1025]

TL;DR Vaush good, but some of his community just doesn't know how to talk to women outside of in-community sexist humor So, I think the issue generally comes down to the portion of Vaush's community that emulates him without fully appreciating the irony in his jokes. I don't think that "is my community sexist" is necessarily the right question to ask here. They generally aren't, but because a lot of Vaush's content is so effective at pulling over aggrieved men from incel spaces, I do sometimes think that the way his community uses his jokes is essentially as a replacement way to talk to women rather than making fun of the people who unironically hate them. The anti-Semitic jokes felt really similar. Vaush knows when to pepepost and drop the echoes for a funny, but then Abigail Shapiro shows up on-screen and her existence as a Jewish woman seems to serve as implicit permission for a not-insignificant portion of his chat to make JQ jokes, which...really doesn't come across as anything other than genuine anti-Semitism. The question he addressed there wasn't, "Is my community anti-Semitic", it was, "Is my community using this style of humor off-brand in a way that might appear indistinguishable from genuine bigoted behavior, and how does that A) make actual Jewish people in my community feel and B) look to people outside of my community optically?" And I know there are different thresholds for humor here, as Vaush pointed out in this video, but I think it's a serviceable example of how his community sometimes doesn't understand where his jokes are coming from; they just hear the jokes and think, "OK, so it's fine to make fun of women, got it." Since none of them have an entire KZbin history covering their political values in excruciating detail, you suddenly have that same brand of misogynistic humor with all the incel terminology but without any of the trust built between them and the women they use it with that Vaush has with his audience. The women in his community who find it funny (and I generally do tbh, he has good comedic timing) know exactly who Vaush is, and we can trust him to come up to bat for women's issues as he VERY OFTEN does. When people in his community make the same jokes, though, they're often being made in an ideological vacuum from people who are just sometimes really bad at talking to women, which yeah, that can feel super fucking weird. (Also, I know there isn't much he can do about this, but I think it would have been a good point for him to touch on.)

[@FunctionallyLiteratePerson]

The comments on this video (both the reddit ones in this video, as well as those in response to this) are refreshing. I'm not a woman, I'm nonbinary, but I hesitate to share his content with women I know because I know his jokes would make them uncomfortable. Seeing how he was in this video kinda reinforced that, and I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that. Thank y'all for being open about it, I thought I was alone since I don't really lurk reddit anymore. Edit: geez, so many people in the comments dismissing women's experiences etc, imo another reason why stepping back from the jokes and informing more on feminist issues would be helpful.

[@ScriptZac]

The excuse that "women aren't as oppressed, so I can punch down" feels weird to me. Like, it'd be less weird if he *did* make jokes about other demographics because then it'd feel less targeted. As it is it's basically "I make jokes you'd hear on 4 chan because women have had it too good for too long, but they're not bad because I don't back it up with an argument, which totally isn't how every misogynist makes jokes." Again, not saying he's a misogynist, but it does feel like watching a channel you like but every video they sign off all "and remember to kick dogs, chat!" Like, even if you very clearly love dogs it's still just weird and off putting. I doubt he'll actually change tho. Casual ironic misogyny is just the vibe he's going for, I guess... Just feels weird he saw the Mayocide jokes as a slippery slope, but not this.

[@roberthuman8091]

Dude, we do this shit all the time. Have you ever heard of r/niceguys? We make fun of them by repeating things like “femoids” and make the “I held the door for her and she didn’t even have s*x with me” jokes all the time. They’re jokes because they’re ridiculous and we all know none of us think like that. It’s a pathetic mindset, which is what makes it funny to joke about.

[@roberthuman8091]

Joking about misogyny is not misogyny.

[@maevem316]

@@roberthuman8091 it is when your fanbase starts to get so irony poisoned that they're literally indistinguishable from the people doing it genuinely

[@roberthuman8091]

@@maevem316 That is word salad and literally didn’t mean anything. How is that a response to ANYTHING I said?

[@roberthuman8091]

@@maevem316 Oh wait are you saying jokes that are making fun of sexists become sexist if you’re too clueless to know that the people making the jokes are being ironic?

[@et5600]

So I'm sure nobody remembers this but back over a year ago when the anti-abortion stuff started coming out, Vaush covered it by saying ''but we don't care about that because women bad''. That was all his commentary on the issue at that time. His community later said that he was just joking. Even if he was just joking, it was a badly made joke about a topic that otherwise would have called for other than jokes commentary. He has said that his channel is overall a lesson about optics. The ironic misogyny seems to stick out like a sore thumb as a glaring oversight paired with how much he talks about men's issues. You would think he would recognize how important it is to not come across as an ''ironic misogynistic'' dude with what reputation communities that advocate for men's rights have and have had in the past. It would work in favor of advocating men's rights to not do the ''women bad'' jokes. Additionally, he hasn't been able to give a good argument for why he does it and this video didn't provide it either. A fair potion of his community are women and yes, admit it, he is playing a part in normalizing ''femoid this, femoid that'' attitudes. Jokes do that. He has acknowledged in the past that edgy humor does that. And yet...

[@verenaronja1153]

I saw this segment on stream and was a little disappointed by Vaush's response. I know his values and I'm fine with all that. When I started watching him I was put off by his edgy misogynistic jokes, but I got over it because I know which ideals he holds. But when talking about the negative effects his jokes could have on his community it didn't even cross his mind that there could be women in his audience, who don't like those jokes. He only talked about what effect it could have on the men in his audience. I don't claim to be deeply offended by his jokes, but when talking about the effects those jokes have and that it could put people off not to even acknowledging women could be in his audience.... that was disappointing ngl

[@GynxShinx]

Their demand is not "bring a woman on." The demand is "bring an expert on women's issues on." This is not tokenization. It is true that Vaush is already fairly informed on these issues through his sociology degree though.

[@navyblue9355]

yeah it's disappointing that he says both "I am not qualified to talk about women's issues" but also uses his knowledge of women's issues to justify the femoid jokes when women call them out as hurtful. He's both not qualified enough to help our cause, but qualified enough to make jokes at our expense.

[@bibubbletea]

As a woman who really respects Vaush, I wouldn’t mind toning down the jokes. They’re funny a little bit but I won’t deny toning them down might make you appeal to more women. Idk I think I just really respect Vaush Because he’s willing to admit when he’s wrong and I’d like to see him maybe take the criticisms a little bit more seriously.

[@et5600]

Same here. The issue is that while he has spoken against seeing things in an ''oppression olympics'' kind of way, he seems to do some of that in his justifying this stuff.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Yes please

[@joeyjose727]

I understand where Vaush is coming from (like the “not qualified to speak on women’s issues that he would agree 100% with the women on), but I do think the hostility to the post (I know that was kinda a joke response too) was kinda uncalled for I think it’s probably similar to hearing “that’s so gay.” It annoyed me to no end (it still does depending on who’s saying it), and some women probably feel the same way, even if they like Vaush and know he’s a feminist. Sometimes lazy humor is annoying, maybe Vaush can just agree to disagree instead of feeling like it was a personal attack (which I also understand, considering lots of the stuff said about Vaush are personal attacks)

[@politicrack]

Women bad What you said is gay Vaush based

[@existenceispain4333]

Yeah like he speaks on black issues all the time despite not being black. I don’t see why he can’t do so with women’s issues. Or at least educate himself on them a little more.

[@joeyjose727]

@@existenceispain4333 i think it comes from people often telling him that he shouldn’t speak on this stuff even though they basically agree, which is probably a result of his bad reputation. I’m sure people assume he believes differently from them because of that He does have a point about most of the left covering feminism from a female centered perspective rather than a male one, so I think he’s fine and should continue with what he’s doing. But maybe the women jokes are a bit tired by now... I’m not outraged by them but they’re not very funny, and we all know his site chat has idiots who Pepe post when Jews are on screen / are weird about women. Like is it a meme? Most of the time, but how do you think it makes women and Jews feel... like it seems like such a basic criticism that I hope Vaush comes back to this later when he doesn’t feel so despised and defensive (understandably so)

[@wohdinhel]

the only valid criticism i could imagine being levied against vaush re: women is the “anything done excessively in irony becomes unironic” one, but i think people are OUTLANDISHLY overstating the degree that vaush does this anyway, and also the idea that vaush only does it with women is hilariously false. as a real life homosexual, I ironically say “that’s gay” *because it’s fucking funny* to describe entirely non-sexual (and in many cases, inanimate) things in that way. i don’t do it all the time, because it’s easy for it to get out of hand, and it’s similarly ridiculous to assume that out of context twitter clip collages are representative of the overall tone of this channel.

[@navyblue9355]

@@wohdinhel see "that's gay" is funny when we, The Gays™ say it, but not so much from straight people. Vaush isn't a woman so he isn't entitled to make sexist jokes ironically.

[@sunnijo]

When I first started watching Vaush, I was thrown off by an ironic woman joke because I couldn’t tell whether he was being ironic or not (it was more vague than “femoid bad”). I was considering closing the video, but I heard enough that I realized it was ironic. I’m not so sensitive that the jokes bother me when I know it’s not sincere. TBH, I’m bored with common feminist talking points. I’m informed on all the issues, and I’ve lived as a woman my entire life. I’m not interested in watching someone repeat things I already know and agree with. I appreciate when Vaush talks about feminism as it relates to men because I trust that he’s not a secret MRA trying to pretend male privilege doesn’t exist or whatever. People who were on Reddit like 5 years ago know what I’m talking about. Anyway, I appreciate the more advanced-level feminism Vaush talks about. There’s a trillion Feminism 101 videos out there for people who aren’t already educated on the basic issues

[@kstar1489]

Vaush’s feminism is no more advanced than what feminists already talk about, is actually less so to appeal to the audience. The idea that other feminists are just 101 feminists is weird to me. Also, characterizing women not liking constant sexist jokes as just being “too sensitive” is peak cringe.

[@julius7539]

Maybe Vaush should say "Femoid good." Then he will not be sexist anymore.

[@kjk607]

@@kstar1489 starting to notice a pattern here with some of your comments. I know you don't like being waved aside as just another "sensitive lefty" but you're kinda making that hard to consider when you keep whining about some of the simplest jokes. Honestly, the kind of jokes Vaush makes are some of the most tame stuff I've ever heard. They're not even all that edgy. I think a lot of you guys really just weren't built strong enough for the internet world.

[@snowbieofawsomeness]

@@kjk607 wonder if you’d say the same thing over ironic racists jokes

[@bvishal2kn]

@@kstar1489 Most feminism on lefty Twitter is just second-wave man hating.

[@Leokaiser]

Vaush: I stopped doing the 'mayocide' jokes when I realised some people (albeit a small number) weren't saying it unironically. Also Vaush: I know incels exist, have admitted that in the past my misogynistic humour actually did lead to developing misogynistic views, but Femoid jokes just make me happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@pushkina7911]

It's possible to like Vaush's content, understand that the jokes are in fact ironic/jokes, and still not like it. I fully believe Vaush is not, in fact, a misogynistic piece of human garbage, and I don't take the constant 'haha women bad' jokes seriously, but that doesn't mean that it isn't irritating over the long term, particularly when no other group seems to get the same amount of ironic jokes sent their way. I also think it's important to analyze why some folks in the comments are saying these jokes are okay because they create an environment for leftist men to be comfortable. Men's spaces need to exist, yes, but if your argument is that femoid jokes are what makes leftist men comfortable in a space, it strongly suggests that those leftist men require a certain amount of superiority and misogyny in order to be at home in a space, and that is Not a Good Thing. The ends do not always justify the means, especially when the means in question can, over the long term, reinforce harmful ideas and positions.

[@Angelica-hw6kz]

Couldn’t have said it better myself

[@navyblue9355]

THIS! if your platform prioritizes men making jokes that women find uncomfortable, you don't have a feminist platform. I don't think Vaush is a misogynist, I just think he needs to actually work on his bias towards men without assuming he doesn't have any.

[@purplebirdie9970]

Yeah, I agree, it isn't about Vaush making these jokes specifically. It's about how it encourages other men to do it too. This is my biggest gripe with it.

[@pushkina7911]

​@@purplebirdie9970 Yes, exactly - Vaush isn't the problem here. Know your audience. If Vaush's audience was predominantly women and/or explicitly feminist folks, the jokes' negative impacts would be limited to the irritation some of us might feel hearing them. But that's not the case - Vaush's audience is predominantly male, and I would venture to guess not predominantly feminist. The harm in this case is normalizing jokes about women in a community that may already have predisposed biases and negative opinions about women.

[@bvishal2kn]

Expecting half of the human population to always be kept above any form of satire & parody is a ridiculous expectation. People try to turn every lefty space into a hyper fragile, insufferably sensitive, always live on eggshell cesspools. Please go somewhere else, most lefty spaces have caved anyway, you don't have to ruin everything.

[@SonicFlutterWonder]

I'm not going to lie, as a woman who's been a huge fan of Vaush's content for years now, I'm a little disappointed he doesn't even seem willing to consider the criticism. You can't really compare queer people making jokes about their own community to men making jokes about women. I've never felt personally offended by the femoid jokes, because they're too silly to really take seriously, but I can understand why others would be put off by it. The defensiveness of this video is more off-putting to me than the jokes, tbh. Almost makes me wonder if there's some degree of seriousness behind the jokes.

[@bvishal2kn]

Almost all left-wing communities are dedicated to shitting on men non-stop. but Vaush said "Femoid" in 2019 & now we have gone too far!!! Get over it, not everything has to be about your feelings.

[@bvishal2kn]

@HoneyJunkie Expecting half of the human population to always be kept above any form of satire & parody is a ridiculous expectation. People try to turn every lefty space into a hyper fragile, insufferably sensitive, always live on eggshell cesspools. Vaush mocks men waaaay more than women, he makes jokes about white people all the time & ya he has made jokes about the LGBT community as well. think the problem people have is he dared to make ANY jokes about women at all. The reason Vaush got popular so fast was specifically because he wasn't like most leftists, He was a refreshing change from the Hyper fragile, apologizing for existing, lefty male everyone is tired of.

[@dafr9344]

@HoneyJunkie He has several videos on feministism lol.

[@wilgriaus]

I got two phones 🗣️🗣️💯

[@Cream147player]

Given the abundance of people seemingly coming out and saying Vaush and his community are both not great places for women, I do think he should listen. I do feel like Vaush has been really struggling with constructive or good-faith criticism lately, not everyone is out there looking to get him.

[@bvishal2kn]

abundance of people seemingly coming out & attack Vaush no matter what he says on Twitter too, doesn't make him wrong. This is just the Giga-woke people trying to turn every left space into a hyper fragile & insufferable cesspool.

[@lindensalter6713]

@@bvishal2kn you are either calling the majority of women that like Vaush “giga woke” or don’t understand the issue. Most of the women here aren’t anti women jokes 100% or they wouldn’t be fans after hearing them. They are saying the way they are done is what makes them uncomfortable especially about the part where a good chunk of the community can’t tell when to do irony.

[@bvishal2kn]

@@lindensalter6713 there will always be some amount of people hypersensitive to everything. majority of women aren't complaining, extremists are always a super loud minority. I don't think Vaush constantly makes these jokes, the problem isn't vaush it's the sensitive people. Nope, most people can absolutely tell the irony.

[@lindensalter6713]

@@bvishal2kn then why are all the top comments going against these jokes when it isn’t a video that got swarmed by haters? (Look at the like to dislike ratio). None of them are attacking Vaush or trying to make him look bad. Almost all of these come from genuinely liking Vaush but having critican of his jokes. Just because YOU don’t see a problem doesn’t mean everyone who does is hyper sensitive especially if you aren’t the target for these jokes. A more extreme example is how most white people aren’t hurt when hearing the n word but black people usually are. Black people aren’t being over sensitive. The word just impacts them differently for obvious reasons. This community does have a problem when taking edgy ironic humor and applying it wrong. Look at the echo posting shit. The joke is supposed to be making fun of antisemitic conspiracies but too much of chat echo posts at the sight of Ben Shapiro and does actual bigotry. A good chunk of Vaush’s fanbase are former alt right people who learned sexism is ok unironically and then the streamer that helped them makes the same sexist jokes and they can’t tell the difference. Vaush doesn’t do a good enough job indicating it is irony for these people and it invites actual misogyny.

[@lindensalter6713]

@@bvishal2kn plus most women hear these jokes as unironic sexism all the time so hearing the same jokes at best aren’t funny anymore even if you understand it is irony. You know the person isn’t actually sexist it’s just annoying to hear the same ones over and over

[@Rexolf101]

It's pretty disheartening that lots of people clearly are uncomfortable with his misogynistic jokes, gave clear examples of how it makes them uncomfortable and how they can't show Vaush content to their girl friends, and Vaush still says he needs proof in order for him to change his behavior. Why can't he just try to stop if it makes so many people in his community uncomfortable? It's not the same as the other things he says make people uncomfortable because it's bigotry and because there's not really a good reason to be making these jokes. I still really like Vaush but this is disappointing

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Hes just got his defenses WAYYYY too high over this mild criticism. He unironically did the stupid voice when reading these comments.

[@leilameow9582]

Because misogyny is the most acceptable form of discrimination in society, until it becomes as unacceptable as racism or homophobia then people won't stop or see anything wrong with it.

[@eliasfakename7158]

I appreciate Vaush explaining his line between jokes and bad arguments disguise as jokes, I will admit sometimes it is hard to tell.

[@GoPieman]

there's 2 aspects to this: -women feeling welcome -how much of his audience is being introduced to these ideas (obviously an informed feminist isn't going to become less feminist hearing an ironic joke) and how these new people perceive these jokes.

[@ashley333c]

yeah, this is the worst response to criticism I have seen from vaush. there are women saying they wish he would acknowledge the impact of his ironic jokes and his response is basically like “well I’m a feminist so I can speak on this in the way I want and it’s your problem if you have an issue with it.” this is just not it.

[@takke9830]

Yeah it‘s just weird to me. He‘s clearly biased towards his own gender and it wouldn‘t be a bad thing if it wasn‘t so weirdly dismissive and harsh. Like with men he draws the line quickly and the incel jokes giving lengthy talks about mental health and stuff wich isn‘t bad mind you but when it comes to women it‘s either just a smaller tangent, some rant, these dumb jokes or blatant dismissal like he doesn‘t care enough. And the fact that this is only an issue with women on his channel and no ther group also kinda feels strange. Like there‘s perhaps some less cheritable feelings towards women buried between all those jokes.

[@dafr9344]

His jokes about men are 100x worse then the jokes about women...

[@Diinytro]

-"X makes people uncomfortable." -"So my W, Y and Z also makes people uncomfortable..." If I have a hangnail on my toe, that doesn't mean I have to cut off my entire leg to address it. Also, it feels like he is tries to deal with the left's supposed over abundances of deference to women with edgy misogynistic jokes. I don't think he is actually a misogynist, but I can understand if someone thinks he is.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

I think the point there was that you're always going to make people uncomfortable and thus people's discomfort alone isn't necessarily enough of a reason to view a certain type of behaviour as being harmful.

[@JE-ng4ty]

I think it would be really cool to have Kristen Leo on your stream. She is a great anticapitalist that talks a lot about how capitalism affects women specifically. You guys could have an amazing convo!

[@JE-ng4ty]

And this is coming from a cis girl that loves vaush

[@SalinaBabba8343]

The only two he ever invited on is shoe, whom I despise, and contrapoints, someone I adore. He really could use more. Unless I missed a name or two?

[@KrowwJaeger]

True, it would actually be informative and not just a random woman token to show how supportive of women he actually is like some people on reddit appeared to suggest

[@JE-ng4ty]

@@SalinaBabba8343 he had on Intelexual Media and Merrick Deville theyre both great!

[@JE-ng4ty]

@@KrowwJaeger yeah she has talks about a lot of valuable information in her videos

[@soph1111e]

Overall the most salient point from Reddit was that the misogynistic jokes make women uncomfortable and they make women less likely to view his stream. If that’s not something Vaush cares about changing then there you go. The jokes will lead to less women in his community and the few who stay might feel uncomfortable. As a woman who’s been watching vaush for a couple years now I have grown tired of the shtick but I’ve been gravitating away from his content in general for awhile now so maybe me leaving is inevitable at this point. I do think the hasanabi community is a good example of a lefty community that feels welcoming to women without feeling the need to constantly shit on men. Just saying maybe making his online space more attractive to women would benefit him but obviously vaush has to be the one to make that call.

[@XioriannaEBDjinn]

Kinda my feelings as well. Like his earlier content where he's over the top rude to Hyena pissed me off, even knowing it's supposed to be ironic + his jokes since then. I stick around because I appreciate his rhetorical skill and his commentary, but that crap is grating. Yeah, a lot of people misappropriate feminism and present misandry with cute labels instead, but the rest of the *world* is misogynistic as a whole. The response shouldn't be constantly crack wise at us ironically, it should be just quit sexist humor period? Like roast people for bad fashion choices or arguments or something, I'm just tired of girl jokes. Even ironically, it's annoying.

[@georgecoconut8164]

Hasanabi literally body shames men all the time lmao

[@sambutton8494]

Cry about it

[@navyblue9355]

Also it's a bit misleading to call yourself a feminist but not actually care whether or not your community is welcoming to women. if the femoid jokes are making women uncomfortable in his community - and from all I've seen they do bother most us at least a little bit - and he doesn't care, he can't really say he has a feminist platform. You can't ignore and exclude us while also claiming to be fighting for our equality. That being said, I don't think he's a misogynist or anything I just want him to stop making femoid jokes.

[@soph1111e]

@@georgecoconut8164 I think he just likes making fun of people for their appearance, I’ve never noticed it as a gender specific thing. he’s never like, “men are pigs, men suck, dump him!” Maybe I just have a bias when it comes to anti-male sexism but I don’t think that counts as what vaush is referring to.

[@galedribble9535]

It’s the same as edgy racial humor. A person might not be racist when making that joke…but what about the person receiving the joke? I’ve definitely been part of a minority who cringed at racial humor and was told “it’s just a joke lighten up” I know Vaush isn’t a misogynist…just like I know he isn’t a racist…but it definitely took me a second to realize he was cool and I’m sure there are a bunch of women who are on the fence because those jokes are kinda unnecessary

[@houseboat1101]

Yeah I've been feeling a little put off by Vaush's woman centered jokes for a while and I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who feels this way. It's really just making me less interested in watching tbh.

[@navyblue9355]

I think the problem with "femoid bad" jokes is that a lot of the oppression women face is from social norms not legal policy necessarily. We still get unironic comments a lot that basically translate to "you don't belong here because you aren't a man" and the effect of the 'ironic' femoid jokes is basically the same regardless of the intent. It still feels like "women are not as welcome here as men" which is a sentiment we find in a lot of the rest of the world so it hurts coming from someone who is supposedly a feminist.

[@jameskilgour387]

That would make sense if he didn't make disparaging jokes at the expense of men 5 times as much. I think it's pretty obvious that the butt of the joke is misogynists and not women to anyone not terminally online

[@navyblue9355]

@@jameskilgour387 making 5 white people jokes doesn't make it ok to tell a racist joke. Also, Vaush might be attempting to poke fun at incels but if it's contributing to misogyny in that women don't feel welcome, he's failing. It doesn't matter what the intent is, if the jokes are making women uncomfortable it's still harmful.

[@relaxnerd5713]

@@jameskilgour387 I am not chronically online. I work and have never been a huge part of the leftist community, and I don't really ever use twitter. but I watch pretty much all of vaush's content and the jokes /are/ off putting. Not just to me but to many women here. It would be nice to be heard. edit: Leftist community ONLINE.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

If you dont feel welcomed enough, just leave.

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

@@jameskilgour387 he doesn't though? He's literally gone on rants about how making "men bad" jokes is bad and sexist

[@FurikoMaru]

The fact that I - an army brat who grew up on anime - seem to be the only chick who didn't even notice the sarcastic misogyny should let you know you might wanna dial it back. Generally speaking, if everyone but me thinks there's a problem with how you talk about women, there's probably a problem.

[@zamis769]

Even though you're being ironic, even pretending to "punch down" gets very tiring and just isn't funny. It's like if your white friends use vanilla racist jokes about you being Black - it's felt in camaraderie only for a while before it gets very boring and still stings, because you hear the exact same things non-ironically. I appreciate Vaush making the effort to make feminism more accessible to men (since it literally is about including men in equality) but being faux sexist has become pretty stale. Some of the Reddit posts are right, and some are misguided. I think overall this is a fair criticism that should be weighed a little more. Also good to remember that feminist issues outside of the west are serious issues that need attention too. Globally it is far more a problem than America/west centrism realizes. It wouldn't be tokenization to bring n expert woman on to speak on some of these topics btw- Contra was always good for that and nobody blamed Vaush for tokenizing women via her to avoid being called sexist (at least on the left). I think Mexie would be a fabulous guest sometime. She's extremely intelligent, leftist, and just all around wonderful person.

[@sharktopus4670]

"I talk about womens issues quite often, like, all the time. [...] I talk about how feminism helps men and how men are badly treated by society" over and over. This coupled with the sentiment expressed at 24:04 might lend people down the road thinking you're actually not that feminist, ya know? I can remember how you once thrown the idea out how the left could use mysoginy... excuse me, "ironic" mysogyny to build bridges with.. I dunno, normies? It do be kinda sexist wether you like it or not. "Being on the left and exclaiming you're a feminist" does by no means mean you are one or not being sexist. It is in fact a lame excuse for sexism in leftist spaces all the time. The sort of sexism, that thinks the women's liberation movement is actually done and there is nothing left to amend or do except abortion while cracking jokes about women bad amirite lel. I dunno, man. You're so sensitive when it comes to mayocide and "men bad" jokes, but with women it's all good and fun. Coincidentally, when your identity is the one being the bud of the joke/harmed. Makes ya think. You either think them all bad or all a-okay. In this particular instance, it is just either or. Disclaimer: I personally do not think you're 'a mysogynist' or 'a sexist'. Been here since 2k subs so miss with that "bad faith" hammer. Yet I do find it quite disheartening seeing you unwilling to reflect on these criticims and resorting to defense mechanisms due to your constant harrassment online. Mysogyny is not that overt but that does not mean it is gone. Quite the opposite. It is now "cannon" and, unfortunately, treacherously invisible for those who aren't affected by it. And, no. Not every leftist talks about womens issues or their discrimination. Not even the majority. Nice tip, btw, about watching female feminist content. Thank god there is such a vast pool of these creators out there and easy to find because they're plattformed all the time. Oh wait...

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Just leave.

[@sharktopus4670]

@@DieNibelungenliad Nah. You leave.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

@@sharktopus4670 why would I?

[@sharktopus4670]

@@DieNibelungenliad same, dude. Y Tell me to leave? Rude af, if you ask me.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

@@sharktopus4670 because you sound like you dislike Vaush. So, stop watching Vaush

[@it-s-a-mystery]

I think the only problem is that the jokes he makes about women and british people are just kinda bad, and forced. They are too frequent and bottom of the barrel.

[@scarlet8078]

Are they even "jokes"? I blocked Vaush's main channel after I had seen 2 vids in a close timeframe where he was responding to women creators & calling them c---t, b----t, fat, etc. He doesn't use slurs & mock physical attributes of other creators. Tbh I don't even recall what the topics were. It's so off-putting, it shouldn't be on YT. It's also just terrible behavior to model for his young male fans, bc talking like that will get you kicked out of a public place & even fired from your job in the US

[@shadowbunny7892]

This is the take. If the jokes were better placed, ie making femoid jokes when discussing incels, there would be no problem. But when you kind of just bring it up out of nowhere all the time it feels a little uncomfortable.

[@kevinb.2595]

The reddit post did feel pretty good faith to me. The ironic "femoids bad" jokes should be toned down. As others have pointed out, though, "feminism" and "women's issues" are not synonyms. Talking about incels or trans rights or giving boys advice on how to talk to girls or be confident are all feminism. I think he doesn't get too into women's issues because 1) he comments primarily on daily trends and the news which may or may not have anything to do with women's issues and 2) he's a dude and can only ever comment on women's issues with some degree of separation. There are ciswomen and transwomen on KZbin I can watch for better takes on women's issues. That said, there probably are some small things Vaush can do to make his community more enticing for women. The community is overwhelmingly male and it's worth asking why.

[@kylehorvath9295]

"The community is overwhelmingly male and it's worth asking why." Twitch users are roughly 35% female, so I think the easiest answer is Twitch is overwhelmingly male in general. If every person on Twitch watched Vaush, his audience would still be overwhelmingly male. This idea that every community/industry needs to line up demographicly perfect to be equal is an insane standard. Plus trying to confine people's creativity and personality to some sterilized standard is what leads to this stagnant media scene we have nowadays. It's like my grandparents watch Twitch now it's the "I like what he says but does he have to cuss so much" mentality.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

The femoid jokes should be increased in number and intensity

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

@@DieNibelungenliad this is one of the problems imo. Kids like this one want to emulate daddy Vaush and end up being unironically sexist because they're not smart and nuanced enough to understand what's edgy and what's annoying and creepy

[@shadowbunny7892]

@@j.c.jeggis1818 That exact thing happened with echoposting on Ben Shapiro's sister. Chat just started being straight up antisemetic because they're children and they don't know how to fall on the right side of the irony line

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

@@shadowbunny7892 Yes! Echoposting and pepeposting is a really perfect analogy here. It's baffling that Vaus has a full understanding of that but can't seem to connect it to the, idk, femoidposting?

[@bulletproofblouse]

Been saying for ages that there's very little optical difference between """"ironic"""" humour and being sincere. Sometimes seems like Vaush tries too hard to maintain the incel section of his audience without doing anything to move them away from that mindset. I certainly don't expect Vaush to force himself to cover any topics that he wouldn't ordinarily have much to say about, but just knock it off with the "femoid" "jokes" because, really, they're not funny unless you're a 13 year old boy who goes to an all-boys school.

[@politicrack]

Just go outside please Jesus christ just go outside please

[@kapital-6978]

@@politicrack disagreeing with my favorite streamer man means you are terminally online actually. Not a cult.

[@LimeyLassen]

I hate Vaush's strange attachment to incel culture. He needs to upgrade.

[@abandonmentissues1887]

I wouldn’t say he does nothing to move them he’s made several videos on not being creepy and men dating which are helpful, probably

[@politicrack]

@@kapital-6978 I think you should just go outside, not even related to vaush You might spend too much time on Twitter and Tumblr

[@CORV3TT33]

The problem is, sometimes he throws them into segments that i would otherwise show to other people and a random out of context sexist joke ruins that.

[@callistourseides]

I've been watching your stream since you had 30k on your first channel and I love your content but this doesn't excuse anything because you're not handling this situation rationally at all. You go around making women bad jokes all day everyday but then you have the nerve to bitch and moan about men are bad or mayocide jokes? It's so hypocritical it's downright hilarious. If you have an issue with either men are bad or women are bad jokes when it's said about your gender but don't care when it's said about the other, it means you're somewhat unironically sexist against the other gender whether you want to admit it or not. You only get to be okay with both or neither, period. I personally think they both suck, not because they're offensive mind you (I don't give a shit about that) but because they're violently unfunny. Then you go around and say you're not qualified to speak about women's issues. I personally think anyone can talk about whatever they want and I've quite literally seen you echo that sentiment several times on stream but alright. Except that means you should never talk about foreign politics, religion, black issues, trans issues, monosexual gay issues and I'm sure I'm missing some other things too. Thing is, you talk about those thing all the goddamned time. Don't want to talk about women's issues? That's okay. You're perfectly allowed to but just say it instead of making shit up. You can have varying levels of interest for different topics, you don't have to lie my dude. It just makes anyone who takes five second to check your moral consistency trust you less. So yeah, this segment was all over the place.

[@shannond1511]

"Big old milkers" is like his favorite phrase to say abt women he clearly doesnt respect

[@SLYKM]

I want to comment on Vaush saying he focuses on men's issues deliberately. So yea, he seems to focus more on men in gender issues, which I think is important and he should continue to do that. But I think its a bit disingenuous to say no one talks about men's issues or to act like there needs to be a balance created to off-shoot all the man-hate. Yea there are man hate in left spaces, especially from liberalish feminists or bitter and jaded people who are making jokes. But on the other hand, the left are in very happy everytime men are uplifted in ways women get, and this effect is 100× enhanced when its a woman appreciating and fighting for men. Which is awesome. Also another angle which I didn't see expressed in the reddit thread, is that a lot of lefties are comfy being sexist to woman who are bad people, which doesn't happen with bad men unless he's being bad to women. Yea like that Shoe clip, so many lefty dudes get so comfy being sexist as soon as they think a woman is dumb or wrong. And its like the anti women "I dont hate women I hate bitches," I used to hear all the time 2016ish era. The left isnt a in a weird anti man wasteland, its just that lefty spaces are the only places that care for cis and trans women so it seems like there is a preference for hating men. I think most lefties are neutral at most.

[@CryFry]

I’ve been put off by the “”women bad jokes”” sorry but it’s not funny and really takes me out of it.

[@Vi-nd7db]

(This is not a critique of the vaush community specifically). As a femoid myself, I really don’t like the misogynistic jokes that need to be told from a male perspective to make sense. Like the “haha, girls are hard to understand”, “haha, girls don’t exist”. You are “ironically” being made fun of, while being not-ironically excluded from the joke. If I’m being made fun of, I would like to be able to join in. “Femoid bad” jokes are mostly fine imo, since they are making fun of incels more than anything. There’s no clear cut line between “fine” and “not fine” here, most often it’s a grey area, but generally the more I feel like men are the intended target audience for a misogynistic joke, the more I think it’s sexist.

[@kstar1489]

Constant “ironic” sexism jokes just become indistinguishable from the kind of “irony” Vaush has a problem with other kinds of bigotry, and he basically admitted sexist jokes aren’t as bad as racist jokes for whatever reason. At some point it just ends up reinforcing shitty behavior towards women and women are just supposed to be ok with it because it’s just a joke bro. I don’t get how Vaush seems to understand the negative impact “ironic” or “edgy” jokes can have towards marginalized people but for women it’s less so? Because he does not make racist jokes nearly as often. And no, it’s not “offset” by the good things you say. Him saying being a feminist means he gets to make these jokes just gives cover to male feminists and men in general who actually still have misogynistic beliefs to make excuses for there own behavior and for others. I don’t think Vaush is some raging misogynist, but his logic and justification is cringe. It’s not just about women being “uncomfortable” for some arbitrary reason, there’s a difference when it comes bigotry than other kinds of uncomfortable jokes. I think this may come from the fact that sexism is normalized it’s seen as not a big deal even though that actually makes it more pernicious. Call me a snowflake if you want but Vaush himself has talked about how jokes and edgy humor can be harmful. Which is why he said he doesn’t really make jew jokes. He said it’s different somehow. But women jokes make him happy so it’s ok or something

[@amerashi1111]

Honestly I just can't really see how it effects people. While I am not really in Vaush's community, in my friend groups we make these sorts of jokes, and I personally think it's funny because I, (as a trans gay woman) being senselessly bigoted towards my groups is hilarious. I personally don't really see much of a difference between me doing this and Vaush being a progressive socialist doing this. I also don't really see any harm being a public figure doing this because it's such a stark difference between who he is and what he is saying. I also think it's funny and because of that it is good.

[@ukreuploads7161]

its because women are considered an easier target to dunk on than other minority groups

[@amerashi1111]

@@ukreuploads7161 Than*

[@diegoseba12]

Vaush's sexist jokes are somehow just as bad as normal sexist jokes? what the fuck? How the fuck is saying "I hate women so they should have rights and enlist in the military haha" the same as "I hate women so they should go back to being sex slaves haha"? This has to be the holy spirit of false equivalencies holy shit.

[@kstar1489]

@@diegoseba12 I’d like to know where I said that

[@Dappis]

Actually gotta agree with the reddit OP on this one to an extent, could chill on the moid jokes. I do think Vaush covers feminism and intersectionality pretty often tho and him covering men's issues is a niche no one else really covers outside of psychotic MRA channels.

[@veronicahair7427]

I think my biggest criticism of vaush is that in his attempt to make fair statements, ie both women / men bad jokes or to treat the opinions of POC with the same amount of courtesy as you would a cis white man is that what gets lost on the community is that actually we do take more the brute force of society and it’s harder for us to speak up and take up space and be taken seriously. I understand where he comes from with trying to combat virtue signaling on the left, but in trying to compensate for that it can create a community of bros who do actually derive pleasure out of seeing people and arguments torn down, because they are so annoyed with terminally online attitudes that they ascribe it to a whole demographic. But I do feel like it’s been hard for me to be taken seriously and I think we sometimes push misogyny to the side because we all know it’s bad and everyone around us generally supports women and so we aren’t looking for the ways in which we still have to be wary of how we can perpetuate misogyny. I just see on the left a lot of men who basically act like frat bros when it comes to women but then are highly educated on women issues.

[@bvishal2kn]

Expecting half the human population to always be kept above any form of satire or parody is ridiculous. If these tame jokes are that offensive, the problem isn't Vaush. Nope, most leftist spaces have completely capitulated to the hyper woke scolds. reason vaush got popular is because he doesn't come off as just another fragile leftie.

[@veronicahair7427]

@@bvishal2kn ? My argument never once questioned the purpose of satire I pointed something out about an attitude that some men inable and sometimes I feel that vaush engages in similar patterns. This is a point about a broader thing I’ve noticed from not just vaush but actually a lot of men. I don’t think he’s sexist or not educated on women’s issues OR doesn’t have the right to make women jokes what I’m saying is that sometimes people get comfortable because they are part of a community where we all are educated on women’s issues and in an attempt to treat a diversity of identities fairly, interpret whatever issue that an aspect of misogyny or another issue without fully seeing the prevalence because of their own outlook and so not unpacking the whole thing. Not in a you must condemn everything way but in a let’s look at all the nuances way instead of throwing a blanket on it out of trying to be fair. I don’t expect anyone to care about trying to always question their judgements. I actually think vaush is generally good at this, but for the people watching they can then interpret things he’s said in like a favor that just then feeds their internal misogyny and so on. Also about the ironic jokes it’s not about the individual ones to me it’s actually the magnitude because then at a certain point it’s not ironic anymore. It might be ironic to you but to someone else, even to someone who actually supports women’s issues they could still really have these conceptions about women and THAT is the issue.

[@bvishal2kn]

​@@veronicahair7427 Vaush has explained his position on this many times. He wants this space to be a political movement & not a safe space. Most lefty spaces become all about staying as comfortable as possible with their social groups. This is impossible in the political debate space. Vasuh was attractive to a lot of non-lefty people specifically because he wasn't this typical hyper woke, extremely sensitive person that most people think of when they think of lefties. Also vaush rarely makes these jokes anymore, the only time he does is when he is pretending to be an Incel & uses their terminology. the most obvious jokes. If these are too much for some people, I'm sorry the problem isn't Vaush. His entire appeal, the reason he became famous is precisely because he is an Edgy leftist & These people are trying to turn him into just another generic woke scold.

[@terrystevens3998]

The whole if you want to hear about women's issues go listen to women is bull.. I know I can hear women talk about women's issue..I would like to hear some of the men in vaushes community learn more about these issues. As a white man other men will listen to vaush that won't go seek out feminist KZbinrs

[@CanteLizzie]

Yeah I thought that was an awful thing to say. People have concerns and he just goes "if you don't like it leave." That isn't welcoming at all. Especially since he defended not having to be a member of that group to talk about their problems but when people said "talk about women's issues more" he tells them to go watch women.

[@takke9830]

Exactly. Men who need to hear it the most also won‘t ever listen to women so this is essential. I seriously never understood that dismissive attitude either. Isn‘t the left about elevating all marginalized groups? Why suddenly stop going into detail because you‘re not part of the group? Seems kinda weirdly dismissive to me. Especially cause feminism is a huge part of the left. So it really isn‘t logical to dismiss that but not do the same to trans ppl for example. Like he doesn‘t mind going into detail there despite being a cis man does he? So why suddenly the change when it comes to women?

[@kjk607]

As a black man, I too tire of the constant ironic misogyny jokes and would greatly appreciate more ironic racial jokes. Specifically more black jokes.

[@laurachow8150]

Vaush is most definitely a feminist, and I'm sure it was all in good fun, but the way he talked to his partner on stream made me worry a few times. He'd yell at her to get out of the room or stop talking in ways I'd never tolerate from a partner, and I wouldn't speak that way to an animal let alone another person. Love ya Vaush but those comments did really put me off and question your feminist leanings for a while.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Oh god I forgot all about that And he'd say "no we just have the type of relationship where we do that for fun" And then he eventually stopped doing that/toned it down. And then they broke up. And it just never really felt like... a joke they both shared? Idk the only other relationship I have ever seen like that where they both said it was a joke, it actually was not a joke and one of them was being verbally abused kind of a lot.

[@user-sz5yd2in7t]

i unironically hate anti-women jokes it was funny like 10 years ago im sorry

[@roberthuman8091]

Why would anyone assume you’re being ironic?

[@ih8myfriends]

Women don’t like ironically sexist jokes because they get enough real sexism in the real world.

[@shadowbunny7892]

Exactly. If you got called a fat loser all the time, you wouldn't like it if your best friend called you a fat loser, even if you 100% knew they didn't mean it. It's literally the exact same if it's based on your identity. Not sure why people in this comment section are trying so hard to complicate the issue.

[@David-ii2op]

Vaush being unable to take criticism part 64, I like the guy but he has flaws, go figure he's a person with flaws.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

I don't fully understand why he gets really defensive when he gets pushback like this. I still think he's on the right side of the issues. But you're right, he's hot or cold on taking criticism sometimes. He did the voice in a mocking tone when reading most of the comments, and thats just kind of... annoying?

[@jessemiller4953]

I honestly wouldn't mind vaush making ALL the "women bad" jokes if he supplemented it with a ton of pro women and feminist content. The reason I don't mind him make the occasional joke about trans people or black people or neurodivergent people is because his content is so clearly pro trans, pro black people, and pro neurodivergent. I just think that it would be better if he really made it crystal clear that he is pro women. (I honestly think that he is, i just think that he doesn't show it very well). I understand that he talks about men's issues because they're overlooked in general, but I also think it would be nice if he talked about women's issues because it's been somewhat overlooked on his channel.

[@abandonmentissues1887]

I honestly think vaush doing like a feminism 101 would be very useful

[@LuckyBeepo]

From a consequentialist point of view, you do more harm than good by using this kinda humor. Been a long time fine but I can definitely understand why the ironic femoid jokes have caused friction. You'd be better off without and it's not like it'd cost you any comedic impact

[@abbye6952]

Ehhh Vaush idk. I do not think he is a misogynist or anything, and some of his points in this video are solid. But as a women in this community, it's definitely a fair criticism to say Vaush doesn't do an amazing job at advocating for women or talking on women's issues. I think he does try, but as he said, it's often centered around men. I get he tries to take a sort of middle ground on some feminism stuff. or maybe he is just trying to speak to his majority audience by centering men, but I think toning down the ironic misogyny would help, this community has a lot of cis young men who just parrot him and don't understand the actual implications of what their saying. or how it can come off. I don't think he needs feminist speakers or anything, but he absolutely could do better at making his community safer for women:/

[@SadeN_0]

I don't think appealing to a minuscule number of actual misogynists is worth the lazy and unnecessary shitting on women. It's pretty cringe and I wish he'd stop it, but I don't presume to dictate how he should act on his channel and go whine on reddit. It is what it is.

[@carsondubs]

He makes "femoid bad" jokes mostly as mockery. I defiantly don't see actual misogynists watching a far-left pro-trans lefty and thinking "Now this man says it like it is" without seeing clear irony

[@douglaslangley9251]

I feel like its more for appealing to the edgy normie crowd of which that number is not miniscule. Its more to signal that hes an edgy boi and distinguish his channel from like thoughtslime or big joel. Not that there is anything wrong with those channels (barring slime being a massive crybully) but you have to admit there is a "softness" in the lefty youtube space

[@AnimeFan9833]

Did you even watch the video? He explicitly said that he's not trying to appeal to actual sexists.

[@sporer_]

The best critique covered is Vaush's unnecessary commitment to the painful edgelord jokes that he shits on when they come from chuds, but thinks he is "allowed" to make because... reasons, I guess. They're so fucking cringe every time (usually anti-gay or anti-woman) and definitely undercut his overall effectiveness at pushing against that shit.

[@uninstaller2860]

I used to say "LOL" ironically, then it became part of my everday language. I'm much better now and haven't said it either ironically or otherwise in long time. I outgrew it I guess, or perhaps it was when I replaced it with rofl, that I had no need for such strong language anymore. Jokes aside, my ears prick up everytime I hear Vaush making those jokes about women. I feel a bit uncomfortable with them. The same way I might feel around my edgy friends. I ignore the jokes and give more attention to things they say, that I like. But I enjoy being around edgy people, something about it feels like some sort of human rawness that you can't get from stiff and pperformative people who are overly polite, but shit-talk you behond your back. Edgy people give room to my own edginess, if you will. I can be more relaxed that way.

[@jaybee27D]

If anything, the one thing I take greatest issue with is calling women bitches. That shit just sticks out so much every time I hear Vaush say it, like I don't care how much you want me to accept that you're progressive so you aren't being sexist when you do it, every other time he does he means it as an actual insult, yet rarely ever uses it on men. The word itself isn't bad, but way too many people don't think twice about whether they would call someone a bitch when they're about to if they were a man.

[@TheVivaciousNerd]

"Okay, my community is sexist to one woman" are you kidding? Vaush you're smarter than that man, you can't possibly think that somehow /shoe/ specifically conjures sexism in your audience? If they're spewing sexist rhetoric at the one woman they collectively don't like, then that says something about the climate... I don't believe you intended for it to be that way of course, but it feels like there's something going on here that's worth taking seriously. I mean, I guess you aren't obliged to make your space more welcoming to women (and I definitely don't want anyone pandering insincerely), but I do think having more gender diversity in online political spaces is hugely beneficial to the discourse, and is worth pursuing I guess.

[@KnockOut1122]

I like Vaush a lot. He’s my favorite leftist KZbinr. I was already a leftist before watching him, but I feel like my views have become 100% more concise after watching Vaush. However, I understand where some of the people in this thread are coming from. I know that his ironic misogyny jokes are just jokes, but they get really irritating after awhile and I’ve avoided introducing his content to friends of mine because I know they’ll be turned off from it because of them. I could care less about having more women on his channel, that’s dumb idpol shit and that’s not part of the problem. Vaush obviously knows a lot about feminist theory, so him speaking on feminist issues is completely fine. I just wish he’d do it more often, it certainly help alleviate some of the problem. However, mainly only looking at men’s issues + constant ironic misogyny jokes start to make them seem, to new viewers and especially women, not so ironic.

[@ngotemna8875]

@@Ass_of_Amalek What? Where does he signal that it's okay to hate women? That's pure projection on your part. I would agree if he never supported feminist issues or called out actual sexists, but he does. And not rarely. And it's not comparable to alt-righters hiding behind "it's just a joke" because those alt-righters never call out actual racism or sexism, whereas Vaush does. And using some armchair psychology to imply that "those jokes make me happy" secretly means he's actually not joking is one hell of a leap. Absolutely ridiculous

[@georgecoconut8164]

@@Ass_of_Amalek lmao come on dude you think he is so misogynistic he would raise 100.000 dollars foe planned parenthood?

[@navyblue9355]

@@georgecoconut8164 raising money for planned parenthood justifies making ironic sexist jokes as much as it would making ironic transphobic jokes, but we don't do that because it's shitty.

[@georgecoconut8164]

@@navyblue9355 There is nothing wrong with jokes you know are told as jokes and not as truth

[@PM-xu2nq]

@@Ass_of_Amalek Stop projecting your weird prejudices onto others, not everybody has the same identity/anger issues as yourself tyvm

[@noahspencer720]

I feel like this is just something he won’t ever really fully understand

[@galedribble9535]

I think he’ll slow down with the femme jokes when he finds the results they get are more negative than the possible positives Just like he realized edgy racial humor is a net negative

[@dumbledoratheexplora1140]

It's not the biggest deal, but it feels like maybe a bit too much deflection of criticism to be honest. Idk for a channel that cares about optics, I don't really blame people for being at least annoyed.

[@CharliHarvey]

I am of course an evil femoid and I do think the ironic misogyny is rather off-putting, but not enough to make me stop watching. I'm less uncomfortable when women do it - just like I'm less uncomfortable when men do men-bad jokes.

[@toga4900]

As a woman I'm not offended by vaushs ironic misogyny jokes but I can understand the criticism. I think the jokes are quite funny but I must add that I grew up in a somewhat more conservative environment and heard demeaning comments and jokes about women regularly so hearing stuff like that come from someone who I know doesn't mean it makes it funny, at least for me.

[@billieeisenhower406]

vaush could really tone down the sexism for a bit, there's alot of unironic misogynists in some of the comment sections.

[@politicrack]

Good

[@weebwarrior9727]

Does he even make that many ironic women bad jokes anymore? I know he used to way back pretty often, and he still does here and there but most videos I’ve seen he doesn’t really do it, and so when he does it’s fine I guess.

[@kstar1489]

I notice he does it quite often may one of us is mis perceiving but I think he still does it quite often

[@weebwarrior9727]

@Cornelia it’s entirely possible he does. I only watch the videos, not the full streams/VODs, and I have a bad memory. It’s also possible I’ve gotten desensitized to them, and just don’t notice anymore.

[@lindensalter6713]

Don’t really see them in posted videos as much as a line during a stream. You might not pick up on them as much as other people do. Don’t know your gender but if you are a man it might not stick with you as much as it would a woman simply bc those are comments women get all the time and make us very uncomfortable.

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

I watch pretty much every stream and noticed he's been doing it way more lately, like in the past 2-3 months. He got a criticism about it and then debate bro'd himself into thinking that it's fine because sexism is over and now he doubled down and does it 3x as much.

[@zPencilPirate]

As a wimmen and a voosh fan, I feel very positive about wimmen and voosh

[@Sh3nan1gans]

As a femoid Jew, I have been treated worse for being female than being Jewish. Always. Consistently. Idk what it is like on the coast, but in middle America, this shit sucks. Bad take Vaush. Really bad.

[@lucas-xg7dc]

im a guy but the redditors are right

[@Pizzarugi]

Despite Paul's harsh words towards Shoe, he's correct. She's a grifter and would go back to making anti-SJW and anti-feminism videos the moment she feels like society's shifting in that direction. She's never taken down her old videos except for the most egregious ones (calling Leslie Jones a gorilla), apologized, nor even debunked her own content. Why should anyone take her on her word?

[@takke9830]

Exactly. For ppl who are marketed so often as redeemed they sure still act like toned down anti sjw‘s. And I wouldn‘t be surprised if they got right back into that as soon as vaush lost interest or has a falling out cause they never seemed quite genuine in wanting to be better.

[@entertain7us148]

i like vaush but seriously i think his biggest flaw is his extreme resistance to acceptance of good-faith criticism. that kurtis conner take was bizarre - 'my femoid jokes are fine because they're not an argument, and kurtis is bad because he like to dunk on toxic men'?? that argument was pretty incoherent,

[@Sh3nan1gans]

Vaush's "women are people" thing is really spot on, but when I can lose a job for having a uterus, maybe chill on the edgiest anti-femme jokes. I know you wouldn't make those jokes about me being Jewish. Definitely good on Vaush for pointing out double standards generally. Mild criticism, nothing spicy.

[@justin-md4xm]

What job are you losing?

[@Sh3nan1gans]

@@justin-md4xm lost a security job in Iowa. I moonlighted at protests like a good little lefty, kept my mask on at protests of course. I lack hope rn, friendo.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Would it really ruin the community and hurt Vaush's goals and the Left's goal if Vaush's community chilled it down just a little? Just a little? Please? Just the *tinyiest* partial concession?

[@AyaDaBerry]

Why is it so hard to just chill on the ironic misogyny is it a hill worth dying on? Why not talk more about women's issues sometimes? Ultimately while I don't think he is anti-feminist he could just make it a bit easier for women to like the community

[@jirojairo90]

He pretty much answers all of these questions in the video

[@lurkingposter]

I was waiting for the twist in your comment.

[@SadeN_0]

Agreed

[@menkaragamble8175]

What exactly are you asking for when it comes to women's issues?

[@funguslord8202]

Because every other place on earth already is addressing women’s issues. I really value Vaush and his positive advice for men, especially since it’s so rare otherwise.

[@existenceispain4333]

I’ve always felt like Vaush’s videos on feminism have always been his weakest. The one that was most off putting for me was one where he was talking about men’s issues. I think he said something like “men are harmed by the patriarchy as much as women are”. Like… comeon bro….Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate his discussion of feminism and how it can benefit men, because I do feel like that should be included more in feminist discourse, but at the same time, you really can’t equate our issues like that.

[@navyblue9355]

yeah I totally agree. he seems to think that feminism stops at legal rights and policy when the majority of sexism I've experienced is societal norms and spaces being hostile to women even when we have the same legal rights as men.

[@kylehorvath9295]

@@navyblue9355 Historically social norms are typically shifted by legal and political policies. The US attitude towards black people didn't really change until we made them a protected class and ended segregation, societies views on women didn't change until we acknowledged their right (legally) to work in a hospitable environment and be financially independent, and homophobia didn't start receding till we decriminalized it and acknowledged they had the right to marriage and a family just like everyone else. Until people feel there is a consequence to their actions (which we typically enforce via legalization here in the States) then don't expect societal norms to change. "Cancelling" could be seen as an alternative avenue, but has a lot of unsettling implications: thought policing, immense power to private entities instead of public entities to mold social norms, and is inherently undemocratic (a small vocal minority and faceless corporate executives can be the sole deciders to who gets "cancelled" and what is normative behavior). TL;DR Legal and political changes tend to be the core influence on social norms. So focusing in on policymaking is the best way to steer social norms towards your values. Focusing in on individual and smaller group behavior can work, but is ultimately teethless imo since there is minimal incentive/disincentive stuctures for individuals to change behavior outside of legal pressure.

[@navyblue9355]

@@kylehorvath9295 I agree with all that lol I just think this is a small issue he can fix. It's not difficult to just not make femoid jokes. If you can improve life for a group of other people and it would take like no effort, why wouldn't you just do it?

[@mckeewardiv6307]

Vaush: When I bring a woman on y’all defend her more than me. Me: *actively remembering the Mel convo

[@LimeyLassen]

truuu

[@cc-bk3tx]

Yup

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

that was such a cop out, he got way too emotional, performed abysmally and then blamed chat for noticing what a horrible job he did by saying they were being misandrist

[@yrlowendtheory]

Seems like a Vaush equates jokes made punching up at men and jokes made punching down at women. Those two do different levels of harm. One is a marginalized group and one isn’t. Besides, if “men are bad” jokes are wrong, why is it okay for you to make women are bad jokes? Why does it bring you joy to do that? I don’t care anymore. I watched you every day, and will go back to not doing that anymore. It’s really disappointing for you to double down on these jokes when you know it hurts the women in your audience. We get enough sexism in real life without our favorite content creators doing that, as well. I thought you wanted to reach as many people as possible with your views, but I guess that just means as many men as possible?

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Is it good to hurt men?

[@sharktopus4670]

@@DieNibelungenliad is it good to hurt women?! What a stupid question. OP voiced their fucking opinion and feelings on this matter, ones which are shared among many. There is nothing to argue here, least of all the shit you're reading into their statement, apparently.

[@aliichi]

He always makes me want to unsub when Vaush talks women.

[@leamJG]

I always chuckled at the "FeMOiDs bAd!!" jokes and the way he treats hyena on stream, so I didn't agree with their criticisms, but then again I don't present femme (yet), so I haven't been the butt of these jokes for most of my life. I've usually been on the other team in the boys' club as other boys jeer at the girls, all the while giggling at the jokes. Growing up, I never felt any strong differences between myself and girls beyond just which club/team I was assigned at birth, so those jokes were just like 2 rival sports fans bantering at each other, which was common in my house, as my parents got sports' scholarships and coached sports teams. It wasn't until puberty that I noticed the difference, but I was in an inclusive friend group, so the boy vs. girl stuff stopped. I do remember being in my psychiatrist's office, talking to him about a negative interaction I had with my mother, and he said "Women, amirite?" I think unironically. This was after I spoke to him about gender dysphoria, too. I felt a visceral disgust and hurt. Like, what does my mom being a woman have to do with? He also had used some outdated terminology, like retarded and transsexual, that hurt as a neurodivergent person experiencing gender dysphoria. So, if that's what women feel when Vaush/people make even ironic misogyny jokes, then I understand why they don't like it and feel alienated by Vaush's jokes. As a black person, I wouldn't like any ironic black jokes either, because usually they're just tasteless. It's like if he said the term "Negro" and "those Negroes sure are a lively people!" or some shit. I guess it's true what Contra said about non-trans people making trans jokes that just aren't funny and that Chapelle's jokes about the black community are funny partly because he is black. Understanding your own community provides a good basis for your comedy about that community, while also giving you a pass to make jokes that would otherwise be offensive, because everyone knows you don't harbor any actual prejudice against them. I always felt that Vaush's ironic misogyny was in good taste (because it was nebulous and basic "FeMOiDs bAd!!" stuff) and that he had the "pass", because he was such a strong advocate for women's rights and issues imo. But if women feel differently, then I'm glad they voiced their concerns and Vaush should listen to them. At the very least, couch the jokes in explicit condemnation of misogyny, like "That's a joke, respect women."

[@waterwraith1189]

That’s basically how I feel with the misogynistic jokes. I understand the appeal but personally, I’ve heard enough misogyny for a life time and it becomes sorta isolating. I don’t even ID as a woman, but misogyny affects me all the same. But I’m just one person so, if anyone else feels different, that’s fine. I’m a sensitive person anyway. 🤷‍♀️

[@melaniey.5596]

I personally think that Vaush is fine when joking about women and basically agree with all you said at the last part. I think of it that Vaush is fine as he is, but that as a community we should have this discussions were we acknowledge this.... “problematic aspects” (God I hate those words but it’s the most accurate ones that I can think of that define what I mean) and move one. Like seeing one very good but old movie and later go “hey this is sexist or racist, and that’s bad” but let’s take the good messages and not the unintentional bad (that are a product of its times) ones.

[@takke9830]

Yeah well as someone who‘s afab and presents very femme although I‘m an enby I can say confidentally that it can just get very dismissive and sometimes feel strangely dehumanizing tbh. Like mysogyny is a very serious social issue still even in 2021 ans the amount of sexism women or female presenting ppl face is bigger than some people think. Like you‘re always gonna be prosecuted for something. Especially your femininity and that prosecution starts at a very young age. It‘s like boys and men are seen as people just humans doing their thing but as a girl you‘ll always be seen in some ways as lesser and it sucks. Not to mention all the hate u get. Do u like some romance series like twilight? Your tastes are shit. Do you not like the feminine crap that ithers taught you makes you lesser cause womanhood bad? You‘re a not like other girls girl. Like women just can‘t win. And it really is just a weird tug of war that we can‘t escape. Sp really misogynistic jokes are a touchy subject cause most cis str8 men do treat women like subhuman blow up dolls and it‘s disgusting. Like women are just fed up with all the bs rbh. All the woman hate. All the „girls are bad and femininity is bad!“ bs boys often are pareoting from other sexists in their lives. And all the other shit too like rape culture being a serious issue, the fact that these crimes are rarely brought to justice even more so and also the amount of hatred and rejection women face. Many women became passive aggressive in relationships for example cause if they blatantly stated their feelings they were either dismissed based on their womanhood, attacked for daring to act up, or they were called a crazy bi*ch. and all of these serpious issues are so often overlooked by men. It‘s almost like they wanna pretend that sexism was solved. But that‘s like saying racism is over now. These systems all die slowly and it isn‘t ok to dismiss the many issues of one group over all the others just because of ignorance. That‘s the main issue. Like many of the hostility towards men from feminists specifically comes from women who‘ve realized rhey have been hurt by men over and over and over again and are just angry about how nobody seems to take it seriously. Like it‘s extreme frustration more than anything. It‘s like having to endure the mayocide sui*ide jokes about men that bother vaush so much but cranked up to a 1000 and also sometimes them being genuine and that being almost a given for women who date cis str8 men. It‘s just really underestimated how much women suffer and yes, that situation with your therapist would be one of these issues. But sadly I can confirm that this feeling of betrayal is something most women and fem presenting ppl will experience in their life. And we are so numb to it that many just tolerate it cause whenever men are critisized by women for anything regarding how they treat women, the hostility will just be so bad many times that we usually don‘t even bother just to stay safe. So yeah. It pretty much is a massive issue and it certainly isn‘t to be treated lightly. So I empathize a lot with those women who got offended by vaush‘s constant mysogyny jokes cause to someone who is constantly facing this bigotry yet is dismissed with being told that it isn‘t so bad all the time it just doesn‘t feel good to many women.

[@havokmusicinc]

incredible fucking thumbnail, holy shit classic internet content

[@willnovak4173]

"You're talking to me about stuff, why?"

[@ryanwallace8263]

Is it Jon LaJoie?

[@renaigh]

Irony, through the lense of the Internet is indistinguishable from Sincerity.

[@renaigh]

Criticism: If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[@brennuswhite1845]

I love how even this comment section is honestly pretty critical of vaush, lmao. which is not to say that I disagree necessarily, I think he could tone them down to a good degree, but I don't think this is what he was expecting haha.

[@Thesngian]

So many girls seem to love this "man bad" humor but then turn around and complain about "woman bad" humor. I think it's pretty normal that you make jokes/complain about the group of people you are sexually attracted to with your friends.

[@Kimbie]

@@ianwazowski5607 I don't think race makes a 1:1 comparison but hard agree. Oppression comes into play and ruins everything. There's nothing inherently wrong with it though, and there are ways to joke about it "right" but still, ironic misandry≠ironic misogyny

[@greyjackalope6938]

I think there's a simple answer to this: It's okay to punch even, and certainly good to punch up. Just don't punch down.

[@ofanichan]

I actually agree with the criticism. Would love to hear him talk about women issues, especially for those cis men in the community.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

his defense of edgy women jokes was cringe

[@bvishal2kn]

nope made perfect sense.

[@finngardiner5358]

I wouldn't say no to a bit of a decrease in the ironic misogyny, it is a little off putting sometimes, but other than that I think vaush is fine when it comes to discussing this kinda thing