Are Gender Roles & Marriage Bad? Convo w/ Taftaj

[@SS-xr7jf]

“A lot of men are good at being emotionally stable” lol no they’re trained not to show as much emotion. They still have them. Just because they don’t show them as openly doesn’t mean their foundations are any more stable.

[@rache8323]

I laughed histarically at that one.

[@kellyfeger]

Thank you! Some of the craziest most unbalanced people I know are men.

[@Olivetree80]

Right, it's the opposite.

[@ArkyThePig]

@@kellyfeger I'm not unbalanced, but I was raised by a strong single mother in a household where showing emotions wasn't something we did. It was not discouraged, but it again it was not encouraged either. We just didn't do it so I'm 21 years old now and still don't know how to do it.

[@NomastiAfricanWarlord]

Gonna have to disagree. Yeah lots of men have underlying emotional issues, but there is a merit in being able to compartmentalize your emotions. Which overall men are good at.

[@NoJusticeMTG]

They have their utility as long as they are personal choices and not societal prescriptions.

[@se7399]

I love ur channel

[@SaraphDarklaw]

Perfectly stated.

[@pastadude01]

Gender roles are literally ONLY societal prescriptions. That’s what gender itself is.

[@Religions.of.fandom]

@@pastadude01 I mean you're basically right but I think they just meant that some roles which a partner in a relationship takes on are coerced/forced while others are roles that are agreed upon by the couple.

[@cultivationape6946]

@@pastadude01 lol no. If that's true then why do transgender people exist. There is no logical explanation for gender dysphoria if gender is completely made up. The fact that there are people who will endure years of ostracisation, violence and threats to their life just to be able to identify with their desired gender simply cannot be explained as social pressure.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

gender roles ought to be like underwear: you can pick and choose ones you like for your comfort/enjoyment and/or because your partner enjoys them with you consensually, but you shouldn't go around demanding strangers wear the kind you like

[@gaybatgosqueak]

Or you go commando and use none

[@carnivorous_vegan]

The problem isn't demanding others to wear the kind you like, literally nobody does that. The problem is enforcing that someone refers to you in a certain way that deviates from a basic societal utility

[@user-kl6lo7hx4w]

The utility in the alienation of marginalized groups of people in our society, of course. People who seek to harm and erase these groups find great utility in these norms

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

@@carnivorous_vegan gender reveal parties kinda disprove that

[@dbclass2969]

Why do they have to be roles to begin with. Why can’t people just act how they want without any label attached to them?

[@JD3Gamer]

And before electronic computers, “computer” was a job that was mostly filled by women because that was the most prestigious job you could get in math and science. People would sit in a room, take the data from experiments, calculate the results, and then present the results to the scientist who takes all the credit.

[@synchronium24]

Yes. But this leads to a conclusion that runs in opposition to leftist orthodoxy. As women have gained more freedom and social equality, their choices have become more *different* than men's.

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

@@synchronium24 If their choices have become more different than men's and they have gained more freedom, how is that in any way contradictory to leftist ideology?

[@xGregglesx]

@@themajesticspider-man6116 And to just piggy-back off of that thought, do we think these workers all had a similar breast size? Or do we feel this was an array, like A-DD? I feel this is critical to the matter at hand.

[@Religions.of.fandom]

@@synchronium24 I mean I guess you could say thier choices became different, per se, but they were always fighting for rights...it's just that they eventually figured out men weren't just going to allow them to live the lives they wanted by being obedient so they took radical(in a good way) action.

[@DrippyWaffler]

@@xGregglesx poor troll attempt lol

[@wissammer5014]

As an aromantic asexual I noticed a particular line of thinking that Taftaj engaged in here that I think is very common. Essentially people, including progressives and left wingers, will say that true happiness comes from committed long term romantic relationships and that casual sex and hook up culture are just distractions from what we really 'desire'. Then when someone points out (as Vaush did here) exceptions to the rule, aromantic or asexual people, people who are content with friendships/queerplatonic relationships, people who are content with casual sex and short term relationships, then the argument changes to oh yeah I guess that's fine too if that's what you want, but you might change your mind in the future and realize you wasted your time on 'unserious' relationships and now it's too late. There's a word describing the societal expectation that the end state of humans is a monogamous marriage that I can't remember for the life of me that explains this perfectly. My biggest problem with this argument is that it applies equally in the other direction. If you spend your entire life seeking a romantic relationship you might end up realizing that's not what you actually want and now it's too late to go back to casual dating/sex or to rebuild your neglected friendships or form new ones. Hell you could even still think you want a romantic relationship but realize that you've been with the wrong person for so long because you rushed into it because you were expected to and 'time's running out' and then over the years you didn't leave because time was still running out and you didn't know whether you could find someone else at this point in your life so you stuck with your current relationship, sunk cost and all that. Turns out that every decision you make will have an opportunity cost attached. Focus on friendships, your romantic life suffers. focus on casual sex, you might be missing out on emotional connection. Jump right into looking for serious long-term committed relationships, and you might miss out on the fun of experimenting in your early years. Every action has a tradeoff, and it seems stupid to pretend that the only tradeoffs worth taking are the ones that maximize romantic potential in the long run. TL;DR People put too much focus on long term committed romantic relationships and pretend as if all other relationship decisions are just distractions from the real goal that will bring you true happiness. Different people want different things, so don't judge and let people choose what type of relationships they want.

[@kaniini008]

Is the word you're looking for "Amatonormativity"?

[@Dirdle]

Well put. The basic argument "you might change your mind and wish you hadn't" is well-refuted by the mere symmetry of "I might change my mind and wish I had," as you say. However, I'm not sure it actually is entirely symmetric in reality. People change as they age and the tendency is towards becoming in some ways more "conservative" in attitude. Not necessarily in the political sense - rather I mean that the slowing of the body and mind makes people prioritise stability, long-termism, commitment. A steelman of Taftaj's argument is then: young people ought to be more mentally ready than they are to eventually turn into people more like their parents than they'd like, because that's much more likely to happen than the inverse. Of course, every generation since time began has been trying to explain this to The Yoofs, so, y'know, not really an argument worth making, especially as what it impacts is closers to aesthetics than ethics.

[@wissammer5014]

@@kaniini008 yes you got it

[@wissammer5014]

@@Dirdle while I agree that that is the steel man of her arguments I still generally disagree. People tend to seem more conservative as they get older but I would argue that's only true relative to the society, and since societies have always trended towards progressivism over time then it actually is just a perception thing instead of a rightward shift. 200 years ago, it was normal for two 17 year olds to have an arranged marriage and only meet a couple times before the wedding. 50 years ago, it would've been abnormal for a married woman to work a full time jobs earn more money than her husband, or be more assertive in the home. Conservative today is way more progressive than conservative in the past. With all that said my disagreement still hasn't been answered. What about the people who don't want that? You could say they're a minority, I'll give you that. But they're significant enough to the point you can't really handwaive them away with a simple 'you'll understand when you're older' or the 'maybe you'll change your mind'.

[@scoutbane1651]

You described my problems with her argument to a T. Thank you.

[@ami_87]

Fulfilled my gender role by clicking on cute girl thumbnail.

[@allibababoo]

She totally is too

[@hi__im_zack4890]

I dont really like her position on gender rolls. I didn't ask to be a cis guy (although that is who i am) and i especially didnt ask to be a rock emotionally. In fact i would say that (the rock part) has hurt me more than helped, and for a completely arbitrary reason; because im a guy.

[@alucardvekkia3966]

as a cis guy, I feel you... I've had particularly bad luck because I'm latino, so all the women I've dated sorta expected me to be traditionally masculine. being single is relaxing to me nowadays

[@wardragon670]

Yo Zack the duality of life is pain, love yourself or find someone who will love yoself

[@LizStaples]

Yes the idea that Men are not allowed to experience the full range of emotions is soooo Toxic. Men feel all the things and we need to give them resources

[@alexantone5532]

I kinda enjoy embracing that stoicism, but at the same time I’m sure I’m emotionally vulnerable at times and am just in a comfortable enough environment to not be chastised for it

[@BustDaNinja]

Try being a cis man and also an emotional mess. Im basically the tailor from Kung Fu Hustle

[@ArkyThePig]

I'm a cis male leftist that prefers monogamy, but I would also prefer to be the parent that stays at home, housekeep, and takes care of the kids.

[@Anonymous-bi5pv]

More guys should be willing to be house-husbands imo, I hope you get a nice, rich sugar mommy/daddy spouse to take care of you, good luck 👍

[@jamesmunn576]

These type of men are simply not attractive to the majority of females. But anyone the best.

[@supremecalamitas342]

@@jamesmunn576 yeah same with strong women

[@willbellamy590]

@@jamesmunn576 lol I love how a certain section of leftists have this delusional view that they know better then thousands of years of evolution that has perfectly suited our current society.

[@jamesmunn576]

@@willbellamy590 Correct, there is definitely delusion on both sides. Evolution and society develop together. You will always have fringe cases of coarse. All the best.

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

I have never worked a job in my life where almost every employee would not be more than willing to not have the top down structure organized obliterated. I’ve seen people who have already asked for time off to take their daughter to a city 5 hours away for a concert that was arranged five months in advance, then a month before a specific day that is particularly busy make a decision nobody is allowed to have that day off and retroactively removed the approved off day from them. I’ve found scheduling and productivity apps that have geofencing capabilities which is beyond creepy, so literally when you would go on lunch break they could see the location you went, everyone has seen the person who gets told someone called in and they have to work a double when their shift is over in 15 minutes. I’ve never met someone who isn’t just a total brown noser that holds the opinion that they can’t sufficiently do the job they do daily without hyper direction and control.

[@hostilepancakes]

socially unacceptable Oh, you aren’t American - that explains things. The thing is, the workplaces that treat people like that are a dime a dozen, so depending on the industry or the locality, one might not have a choice but to work for a place that treated Mockingbird that way. Yes, it really is that bad here. No amount of warning is enough to “protect” a given day from your employer scheduling you on that day. It sucks, and it’s why you see so many younger workers making more demands (finally). The pushback from the wealthy, and from insular boomers who don’t have the same workplace experiences that even Gen X has had, is going to be massive, even compared to the pushback we’re getting now.

[@pawmo3162]

@socially unacceptable I'm Canadian, have been working since '98 when I turned 15, and been at several jobs myself that were like that or close, and have heard countless stories from friends and family confirming the same. This is not an uncommon thing to happen, and your personal anecdotes do not change that reality

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Why are we totalizing something that should be left to personal choice between partners? I feel like there are a bunch of people desperately wanting some new authority figure to tell them about the new optimally/progressive way to life their romantic lives which seems counter-productive to any kind of progressive social project let alone an anarchist one.

[@coolguygames6451]

I mean you're completely right... but to be fair, do you not see a lot of lefties demonize monogamy as some sort of like, pathetic insecure archaic trait of like cis straight couples to abuse and claim ownership of each other? I feel like this kinda happens with a lot of lefty movements though... Like non monogamy and fluidity of gender roles becoming normalized is super good for the world, but it feels like theres almost always some kind of an inherent demonization attached for those who do not embrace it in their own life. Hell I'm p sure that Vaush did a whole stream about monogamy being like solely born of insecurity himself didnt he? I think people are just looking to be told that they're not wrong/not against social progress for just like... personally wanting a wife, or a husband, or a house with a picket fence one and a half kids and a dog or whatever it is lol

[@wardragon670]

Well said

[@PikaYoshi21]

@@coolguygames6451 that’s absurd. Monogamy is the most socially acceptable thing ever. Even lefties demonize non monogamy. People that demonize monogamy are extremely extremely rare. I’ve never seen it before, but I’ve seen a lot of hate for non monogamy among leftists

[@neverbackdown1918]

@@coolguygames6451 yeah, to me it seems rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, and not actually contributing anything meaningful. There is nothing wrong with monogamy, just like there is nothing wrong with polygamy. There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom, just like there is nothing wrong with being childless and working. Just because there were aspects of it that were bad at one time, doesn’t mean it’s bad now. Modern Christmas has some pagan aspects, but that doesn’t mean it’s a pagan holiday, nor does it mean that someone who celebrates those things nowadays are pagans.

[@coolguygames6451]

@@PikaYoshi21 I’m not saying monogamy isn’t the most generally socially accepted relationship format in today’s society, just that in certain progressive communities (this one included) it is viewed as something archaic or born of insecurity, or just generally less evolved... I’m not sure it’s so absurd to point it out, simply because I’ve seen so much of it... but idk interesting that your experience with this isn’t similar! Will take that into consideration, but it’s pretty wild to scream “absurdity” any time someone voices a different experience in progressive/lefty/socialist communities than your own.

[@r.h.f.6073]

i want to push back on her assertions on Singapore. i have lived there, and when i speak with Singaporeans, particularly the youth; i hear a lot of people say that they wish they lived under a government that was less restrictive and overbearing. people certainly give credit for the fantastic outcomes their government has provided for them, but it's a mischaracterization to say that the proletariat there is necessarily amicable to being ruled over in an authoritarian way. there's a lot of migrant (legal and illegal) labor exploitation that goes on in Singapore, and there is no minimum wage there so bosses can get away with a lot of it.

[@verager2493]

Marriages lasted longer because they literally were not allowed to divorce without fault, and women were property you beat sometimes. High divorce rates are fine.

[@Canadish]

Not *fine* , there is still an underlying issue there if people aren't able to maintain a happy long term relationship, to the stage they need to legally seperate (which is suggesting a major breakdown in things in most cases). We know this has negative effects on people financially and more importantly it f's up kids even when it's amicable, that is very well documented in studies. It's good that we're past people being *locked* in together, but we should be far into the next question: getting people to *want* to stay together without cohesion or risks to physical or financial wellbeing.

[@UOweMe]

Why does she constantly keep bringing up casual relationships and hookups when Vaush is talking about expanding families beyond the small nuclear family and being more connected to your community? Those are not opposite things

[@SS-xr7jf]

Yeah she keeps strawmanning. Nuclear families are specifically adult kids move out, get married, have kids who then move out as adults. Lather rinse repeat. Hookup culture is pretty irrelevant.

[@inurokuwarz]

@@SS-xr7jf Exactly! You could come from a nuclear family, start a nuclear family, and have a ton of hook ups in between those to points! If anything, the chad nuclear family that engaged in tons of hook ups is going to be rock solid cus they like banging so much.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

All “hookup culture” is is people mad they didn’t get a second date. Too many people see sex as emblematic of a relationship instead of trying to see if you want a relationship.

[@e.j.d.rorchea6467]

maybe she doesn't know it but that idea of vaush is extremely silly, he's basically talking about tribalism, that would never work in a modern society or it would never work in the society we have now. I say this because there are societies that function as vaush says, and none live in a modern way.

[@lzmunch]

@@e.j.d.rorchea6467 yes, definitely not a thing that exists in other developed countries that arent america

[@jmdoe5822]

42:27 Taftaj smiling her head off because she got Vaush to say Democracy wouldn't solve the problem. She's not big on Democracy or worker co-ops, so getting Vaush to admit that apathy (whether through lack of education or just personal disinterest) is enough to undermine the whole concept, is a win for her. "You'd need some kind of.... A technocracy without decision making power"

[@jmdoe5822]

@@Bellitchi 😄 Nah, she just doesn't think it works very well. Not sure what alternative she'd prefer, but I guess she just wants more people to be aware of the failings.

[@inurokuwarz]

@@jmdoe5822 Yeah dude, Palpetine just had concerns about Valorans unwillingless to defend Naboo.

[@burnttoast111]

Except it doesn't really undermine the whole concept of democracy. It shows there are weaknesses to democracy (which anyone alive today should be able to acknowledge), and highlights the importance of education and engaging people.

[@burnttoast111]

Also, Vaush has said on stream before something along the lines of 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for everything else'. It isn't some new admission by Vaush that democracy isn't perfect.

[@jmdoe5822]

@@burnttoast111 From her perspective engagement and education are an insurmountable obstacle. She is quietly cynical, or cynically quiet

[@PikaYoshi21]

Their ideas of 50s dating is based on stereotypes and not reality

[@rickyemiguel]

Divorce rates have largely been on the decline with newer generations, partly because serial divorcees have driven up the stats in previous generations and also because most young people who get married tend to only take that step when they're absolutely ready as it is now a greater commitment more than ever. Also, the nuclear family is a marketing myth, it came about artificially in the 50's in conjunction with consumerism and suburbia America.

[@RasmusVJS]

My take on something the commenters here are spewing: Gender roles can be good, once they stop being gender roles, and instead become behaviors that one actively chooses to adopt.

[@gamerbull2183]

@@chucku00 Because if it's forced, it makes people unhappy.

[@gamerbull2183]

@@chucku00 Thay why I said if someone "forcing" gender roles onto people then it's bad.

[@gamerbull2183]

@@chucku00 Okay then what was your original point? The OP said that it was good not bad.

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

@@gamerbull2183 lmao they were so embarrassed they deleted all their replies. Roasted and toasted. -you weren't even mean to them-

[@gamerbull2183]

@@herec0mestheCh33f Yep 😂! He's gone

[@zengara11]

The right is for unions? Since when?Unless if the idea is to have people who claim they are right leaning, but 100% extreme left, but does not want to be called left wing or "wants to change the right". By the way, people have been saying very leftist stuff, acting like they are right wing since before Bush, don't think it has ever worked

[@PikaYoshi21]

Supporting unions goes against the fundamental core of what it means to be right wing

[@Gum_Cuzzler]

My experience is the people on the right who claim to support unions will immediately follow this statement with all the perceived negatives of unionization

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

They seem to be fine with unions so long as there are no steps taken to keep them from being corralled and ripped apart with tried and true busting tactics. So, basically, they're okay with unions as long as they can't actually do anything, as long as they're submissive to business interests

[@CrowsofAcheron]

If the union is politically conservative, male dominated, and patriarchal, conservatives will support it. Police union is filled with right-wingers. Generally they will support things like pay raises and benefits as long as it goes to those "deserving."

[@charlottecomeau1266]

i know a lot of conservatives that are pro labour unions (mostly for trades, police, etc. not so much for minimum wage workers, but some are fully pro union) but they vote conservative for the racism

[@broguy9707]

"the opportunity cost of your relationship goals changing might mean you've wasted thirty years without a married partner and now you have a limited dating pool" is a really bad argument because it's like 1. what's the opportunity cost of being married to one person for those thirty years instead of exploring romantic options for that same amount of time? It seems like you're going to be more flexible and able to make a decision to prevent this opportunity loss if you WEREN'T married. and 2. the limited dating pool is under the current assumption and system of monogamous nuclear relationships. If there were less of those, the dating pool would expand. Big brain concepts, you make your own scarcity and then scare people.

[@jaybee27D]

Exactly this

[@alleylee8510]

Also, the assumption that having a married partner is some sort of universal standard that everyone should aspire to is absolute dogshit and beyond harmful.

[@Tigercomplex]

Her take on married vs. non-married happiness was so cold imo. Life is built for married people, it is significantly more economically and socially difficult to be single. The idea that you are incomplete and lesser than your peers that get married or enter monogamous, long-term relationships is so much more pervasive than anyone realizes and it messes everybody up. I don't think Vaush's response to this was strong enough either - his comment on feeling sad about people who are old and have never had a relationship/loved doesn't address the system behind why we view marriage like this, it only acknowledges that marriage is overrated. It would have been a better response to have asserted from the start that someone doesn't need those kinds of relationships and can find community and fulfillment from many other sources in life. He gets close in talking about how people don't know what they want from relationships because of these expectations, and how hookups aren't bad, but I feel like he should have gone farther. She's also completely flawed in that she's like "oh you need to commit long term to someone eventually" but like.... a) friends are a long term commitment usually, and most people have friends anyways and b) you really, really don't need to do all that. People like her really just make me mad because she is trying to force her idea of "true happiness" on others. They both kind of verbally acknowledge lack of relationships as a possibility but don't really, truly seem to take it seriously as an option. Just as a freak exception to the rule, though they have very different ideas on what the rule is. It was also just cringeworthy on a personally level in that I don't plan on ever having a romantic relationship in that way, and when I express this I get responses ranging from dehumanization to anger to denial to pity. Some would say that me not wanting that life makes me unhappy, but I say it's the social conditions that makes me unhappy. I really think leftists should do research into amatanormativity and the aromantic community, they aren't hard concepts to get a basic grasp of unless you are dead set on these norms. On a deeper level its easy to connect amatanormativity to other systems like capitalism, or racism (like when vaush brings up how nuclear families aren't common in many other cultures), or feminism which I believe is where the concept was first described.

[@microwavebrain1035]

Your comment is refreshing to read, I’m a fellow aromantic

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

"friends are a long term commitment usually" Not to mention, those friends can provide each other with benefits, as well. There are all sorts of ways to find meaningful fulfillment in your interactions with other people. Even if a person is asexual but romantic, there can still be a FWB situation where the benefits consist of fulfilling and meaningful romantic engagement.

[@willbellamy590]

Lol your lonely and sad stop coping and touch grass

[@Tigercomplex]

@@willbellamy590 you're*

[@janeryan2709]

I might screenshot your comment and read it often for my own mental health.

[@Addi0_0Ruok]

It just feels like she was putting up “trad-wife” arguments. How you gonna be a trans tradwife, or at least how you gonna argue that’s the “best” way? There are no best ways that will work for all and the idea that we analyze this shit based on the narrow scope she was applying here feels like a disservice. She basically said we should respect all ways of existing but that not all ways should be viewed as equal. I just reject this appeal to tradition and control.

[@Ingu.z]

I'm a bit 50/50 on this one. I agree with Vaush's position on gender abolition, but I also think that for as long as these traditional gender roles are as prominent as they are I would feel kinda weird to argue against a trans woman's feeling of entitlement to also be able to become a tradwife. I don't apply these progressive expectations on cis women, and even less how they want to live their life, so it would feel like a double standard on my end if I argued that. I think "people are people" is my conclusion here.

[@blitzballrusher4993]

The way Taftaj smiles sooooooo sinisterly when Vaush says that Democracy can't necessarily solve the problems being discussed around 43:00 is such a horrendous self-report. There was always something about the "moderate conservative" or "enlightened" non-extreme right that always felt very insincere. Even though Vaush is objectively correct that Democracy is not a perfect system that can solve all of these types of special interest lobby groups because frankly....who possibly could know enough about all these things to have informed opinions on all of them, it seems like Taftaj FELT like she won right there and that she wants a technocracy where a small subset of rich elitists with highly technical skillsets and brains make all the decisions...almost like she doesn't want the average person to have a say because the average person is stupid type of idea. Even if the average person is stupid, Democracy is STILL the least bad alternative.

[@twot2224]

maybe she is just very invested in her anti-democracy take, and hearing someone concede a little to it made her happy? you make her sound like some moustache twirling villain hiding extremist beliefs behind a centrist label. lmao.

[@alleylee8510]

@@twot2224 It's almost like there was an entire community of "skeptics" who called themselves centrists but are now almost all fash or something.

[@twot2224]

@@alleylee8510 You really saying this Taftaj person is at all like the skeptics? Seriously?

[@alleylee8510]

@@twot2224 I am. Obsessing over the "objective" and "moral" superiority of regressive values is exactly the kind of garbage that those types spew.

[@twot2224]

@@alleylee8510 So arguing for conservative values = skeptic = later fascist? Or are you saying that the language used is what unnerves you? In which case, can you point out where she does this because to me it really just seems like you're just trying to characterise her as this moustache twirling soon to be nazi just because she's arguing that there are some positives to social conservatism.

[@ignemuton5500]

Her points were pretty much just lukewarm versions of "gay couples arent good parents" "hookup cultures is destroying society" and "i think its okay that hard gender roles exist"

[@kingoftheworld7061]

You’re projecting your actual views

[@ignemuton5500]

@@kingoftheworld7061 i dont think you need to be a genius to see that this is what she was going for, this isnt even subtext, she pretty explicitly stated that hookeups are bad and used the classic conservative arguments, she pretty obviously claimed that a house without a "mother" and a "father" will not "produce functioning kids". I think you just didnt watch the full video.

[@kingoftheworld7061]

@@ignemuton5500 i did and you’re wrong, and projecting way too much.

[@ignemuton5500]

@@kingoftheworld7061 if you're just going to ignore every point i make and claim that i project then i see no reason to keep talking. maybe you should check yourself if you're projecting your own ideas unto her and maybe you're thinking she is saying things that she isn't.

[@kingoftheworld7061]

@@ignemuton5500 no buddy that’s you. You’re doing that

[@andersonuwp]

This conversation was ASMR, the voices were so calming

[@Enkiaswad]

I am listening to this in the morning to get into work, it's very pleasant *relaxed capybara face*

[@drmobius2343]

I'm sure these dudes had a nice conversation

[@mikeandnike123]

@@Enkiaswad same it made getting out of bed and not falling back asleep very hard

[@marciamakesmusic]

@@drmobius2343 cringe

[@drmobius2343]

@@marciamakesmusic agree. Men in female caricature are cringe.

[@MaleckinJinx]

As a lefty who works as a machinist in a blue collar facility, it would basically be a death sentence to bring up my politics here

[@heyy1829]

You mean the gender stuff or advocating for more workplace democraty? I think the latter would ring well with a blue collar crowd

[@MaleckinJinx]

@@heyy1829 you don’t know how reality works in a machine shop

[@heyy1829]

@@MaleckinJinx yeah i admit i really dont. its just most factory workers i spoke to hated their working condotions/bosses, so you would think they would be open to that... but i guess im wrong, surely there are also other factors at play there

[@MaleckinJinx]

@@heyy1829 i work in a meritocracy. I spoke up about a safety problem cause I got shit in my eye even with safety glasses. The guy I work with refused to put a safety shield on the air gun cause it dripped, even after I asked. Management didn’t care cause the guy produces a lot of pieces. That’s just for an example.

[@sorinruga3434]

I think this was a very good way to have a productive conversation with someone who has the slightest conservative tendencies (marriage, gender roles). I can totally imagine some other intenret left going very mad at her for holding such beliefs

[@rache8323]

No, this is literally something Vaush has spoke on, regarding the difference between platforming and debating. You don't have to be agro to push back. You just have to be clear. That didn't happen. He also has stated, so many times, that he doesn't want to change the mind of the person with whom he talks, but to change the mind of the audience. I'm cool with him being attracted to her, but he failed at calling out her bad viewpoints. Just don't post your first dates as "convos or debates" on your channel. Otherwise, have whatever Convo you want and then bine whoever you want. Just be consistent. This was not. I have many yrs of reference.

[@ziontea7045]

@@rache8323 ? So this convo was a date....?

[@rache8323]

@Lemon Tea I can't say what was a date, TBH, but Vaush nor any Vaush fan could ever fault me for a little contentious wording. I can only tell you that Vaush was very soft on pushing back on subjects he has a vast history of being a belligerent asshole on. He has admitted, in the past, that he has been too soft when he misjudges people. I think he misjudged her, and I think that is obvious. I might be wrong about her, and I hope I am, but there are also more important things going on right now, and I don't think this is worth hating him over, nor worth the time arguing. Yet, here we are...... However, I will still defend my stance of him not pushing back enough on bad ideas. I may have been performatively contentious in my criticism, but I still think the main point is valid. Whether or not it was a date is not important. If he posted it here, it reflects his views and he makes money. That's what matters, and he can take some criticism. If you can accept(all) his contentious wording to make a point, you shouldn't object to mine. It gets my point across just fine. He was soft, when he could have been clear, even if he wasn't aggressive. Let's not get distracted and pedantic.

[@alecneuschaefer4172]

I think it's a little silly when she addressed us as "lefterly" people. I know what's she's trying to get across and it isn't rude. I just think it's funny 🤣

[@jcboyle82]

I think tafttaj’s approach is very smart, it’s very disarming and makes her bad centrist takes easier to digest (if she even understands what she’s talking about). But let’s be real, her takes are bad. For example, when did anyone on the left say we should take away minimum wage? Or how she thinks we can do public option healthcare on a state by state level because some states have European level economies.

[@xGregglesx]

Is it just me, or is Vaush being submissive/non-combative?

[@user-gc1wj8tt2p]

california literally was about to do a public option healthcare and the dems slammed it with a super majority. Get out of your bubble lefty.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@xGregglesx chat loses their marbles if he is even mildly antagonistic to anyone that isn't a cishet white nazi.

[@xGregglesx]

@@themightymcb7310 Eh I don't think he truly cares enough about chat for that.

[@jcboyle82]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p did it happen? I’ll wait while you look it up cause you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about.

[@nackskott12]

The thing about the casual sex discussion that I didn't hear said but thought it was really relevant to me - I think it's important if you're interested in sex and relationships (I.e. not aromantic or asexual) to have casual relationships and sex, as well as longer term relationships. I used to be opposed to hookups on a personal level and I thought I'd be happier without sex if love wasn't involved, and now I really regret not having more sex when I was younger. I think it's caused me a lot of frustration and alienation from sexual topics in some detrimental ways. I strongly believe now that both fulfilling sexual needs, AND developing an ability to make strong long term bonds are 2 important aspects of health and happiness. Obviously you can go overboard and not everyone is interested in sex, but I do genuinely think sex outside of explicit relationships is a part of countering loneliness because it can absolutely be a positive social experience. Think about it - for most people a portion of being able to feel a part of your community is if you're having fun sexual experiences with people in your community. A certain hot take I have is that I believe destigmatizing group sex and communal sex could be a very helpful thing for emotional, social connection - plus it's just good for having the right amount of dopamine in the brain that lowers your likelihood of doing riskier behaviour like drug or alcohol abuse. It's just a part though, I think my views on communal sex should be seen as an extension of broader social integration between individuals for higher levels of happiness, personally and interpersonally. It's not supposed to be a replacement for long term relationships and you have to compromise to find what works for individuals.

[@nackskott12]

@Rachel Forshee I completely agree. Its hard to find the right words for it but when you draw a line between less committed sexual relationships and “love” it can reinforce the notion that casual sex is something to selfishly engage in for your own benefit and not really for the other person, even if it's not that obvious or explicit. I mean we accept that there's a different kind of love between friends, why not between people who've hit it off and see each other for fun hangouts and sex? Really, I think learning to show a form of (non-romantic) love and have sex within less serious arrangements can help build empathy. Learning to understand your own and the other persons boundaries without the pressures of longer term dating can make you a more understanding person, and learning to pleasure each other as a way to relieve stress and show a form of affection is very good for self esteem and healthy emotions. Teaching people that it's okay to have sex with people you're friends with is a good way to make the casual sex that happens to be better for everyone involved. I think the risks of not having enough sex or casual, fun relationships can be just as bad and harmful as the risks of having too much sex - when you haven't had those experiences they weigh down on you. You worry if you'd be a good sexual partner, you become insecure that people will think there's something wrong with you for not having had sex earlier, you become frustrated and might veer towards pornography to fill the gap in your life, and frankly being touch starved is just bad for your mental and physical health in general. There's a lot of evidence for that too, I think if we just learned that there needs to be a balence and that healthy, safe, mutually respectful sexual encounters are a good thing that everyone (who is sexually inclined) should experience, I couldn't think of any circumstance in which that'd be a bad thing. In the same way that working out is good for your mental and physical health, so is sex. Not to mention that exploring your desires and turn-ons with another person you share personal respect with is a great predictor for future sexual happiness. People like sex and it's good for us, I really see no reason to deprive ourselves of it. In my case it came from a mixture of insecurity about love and sex and wanting to be morally superior to other people, but those aren't good reasons and I see a lot of insecurity in the way people talk about these issues still. Maybe I'm projecting there but I think we do have some baggage with how we handle sex and it's not good for anyone of any gender.

[@Washanuga]

@Rachel Forshee I'm inclined to say I absolutely don't agree with that. I've had my share of hookups and fwb situations. I'm moved past hookup type situations, but I've never had a problem with fwbs. Really depends how you're defining "love". Mutual respect and attraction have always been part of my casual situations. The goal of any such relationship should be to add positive value to one another's lives. Even if the "relationship" is wholly sexual in nature. I've had sexual relationships wherein I respected them as fellow humans, their desires, and I wanted us both to be satisfied in the bedroom. I certainly didn't love these people in some sort of deep romantic sense, but that doesn't mean I treated them like sex dolls to be used and discarded. There's nothing wrong with purely sexual relationships. "it's creating a dichotomy that leads people to disregard their partner or treat the act mechanically." - The way to combat that isn't by saying something as nebulous as "all sex should have an element of love". Teaching the right kind of sexual education, teaching people respect and empathy, teaching people communication skills, teaching people how to have mutually pleasant sexual experiences. That's how you combat that.

[@Washanuga]

@Rachel Forshee Literally none of that was relevant to your initial comment nor my follow-up and you pretty much slammed the door shut on any relevant discussion with the "love to me I love" statement. Have a great day though.

[@sameerdodger]

@@nackskott12 I agree and have been in a similar position to you. I'm 30 this year, I've been in two long-term relationships lasting around 5 years each - something not many my age have been able to do. However what I've not been able to do is engage in casual sex. A mixture of being committed for those ~10 years, being a timid/shy person and kinda feeling like casual sex wouldn't be for me. Like I feel like I need to have some sort of bond with the person, that isn't necessarily something i'd see as a love interest. Otherwise it's just to meat bags banging together, using each other for gratification only to never speak again out of awkwardness or regret. But now I do look back and wish I 'got involved' more. My previous partner slept with quite a few people (so she told me anyways, no reason to not believe her). Ofc I didn't have a problem with that at all, more at myself feeling like I've 'missed out'. And then she'd say it wasn't really anything special, not really regret but not really grateful they happened. And I'm just left with more questions than answers tbh. It did make me feel things like "oh damn, am I just another guy that you're gonna move on from eventually and say that about?" but again, maybe it's because I haven't really experience 'sleeping around' for myself. Idk but I got diagnosed with Autism last year that explained a lot. Maybe it's one of those things I won't ever fully understand, for better or for worse.

[@harrywompa]

One thing I've noticed with good faith defenses of gender roles is that while it is true that having stories to teach socially valuable archetypes, like the stoic emotional rock or the expressive empathetic person, there is no reason why that has to be gender or tied to sex. Any archetype would do, Vaush hit on this with Goth and Gamer examples; the defense is almost always about having stories to teach, not why it should be gender specifically. If you're pro-gender, you should be able to defend gender as the specifically best way to teach valuable social skills... which it isn't, which is probably why most gender defenders do this begging the question type defense. That seems to be the case with a lot of arguments for tradition, actually. Defend the specific version of something that is traditional, by defending the idea of having standards at all. It's not the same thing. Spirituality is good for mental health generally, but if you're going to defend the hegemony of something like Protestant Christianity, it isn't enough to justify the general need for spirituality. Why is this specific tradition useful, that's something I almost never see answered. The family/relationship part of the convo felt really gross, Taftaj was polite but she was absolutely just assuming the good of the nuclear family because it already exists. The dating pool stuff, the parenting dynamic, the ticking clock, it is so restrictive and the "it's not ALWAYS" necessary comeback feels exactly like Christians saying gay or black people aren't ALL bad... it's dismissive as hell and ultimately shows just how little they actually think of such minorities. All the stats are just a smokescreen for this knee-jerk disgust with people that aren't like you, or that you secretly wish you could be more like.

[@thenotoriousbfg4960]

Based. And dope handle.

[@kyun0q]

Very good write up

[@0Scoops]

If i understand correctly, her take on the gender thing is at worst "i want other people to be useful for me gender wise so we should keep imposing gender roles on people" my response is, everyone should be allowed to express their gender as much as they want, there just shouldn't be an obligation to because that's cringe No one is saying you can't be what she says, but she obviously wants to force it to some extent and that doesn't really help people.

[@winterh46334]

I dont think its as much as "force" its more about showing pros and cons honestly

[@0Scoops]

@@winterh46334 probably, but to keep it, it has to be forced to some extent

[@carnivorous_vegan]

No her take is that we should have a standard but allow deviation from that standard. The problem with far leftists/progressives is that they want to abolish the standard without replacing it with anything, essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater. She is right on this. You have to work within the system then expand the lines of that system from within, not disintegrate the lines entirely.

[@0Scoops]

@@carnivorous_vegan so what you described her position as is almost gender abolishonism and what you described is something no sane human believes. What do you mean replace? It's literally a slow process of removing the obligations related to gender roles. Replace the arbitrary obligations?

[@carnivorous_vegan]

@@0Scoops you're not equipped to have discussions on this level if you think shes a gender abolitionist. Shes advocating against gender abolition. Glad you agree that no sane human should believe that, now go and argue against literally all the far leftists who are gender abolitionists, which is virtually 90% of them.

[@caad5258]

24:12 Also material hardship discourages participation. You need the time and energy to keep track of elections to form an opinion of the candidates, as well as time and transportation to get to a polling booth. When an adult is working two part time jobs to barely make rent, what are the odds they can spare the time to do all that?

[@PropheticShadeZ]

but they always have the right, to me its like saying you cant reduce homelessness by building houses by pointing to mentally ill people who refusing housing, like sure they might not engage with the system, but giving them the option of support. sure bad situations will still occur, but with voting rights there is an incentive structure to prevent the worst abuses of the workplace

[@calmkat9032]

Not sure why the Dichotomy is between "hookups" and "marriage" when you could do neither and be happy/unhappy. Right now I'M stuck in the societal expectation to lose my virginity (so either one) so I'm not seen as a loser, even though idgaf myself.

[@flashfrozen7401]

When I was little, both my parents worked at Intel. That means my sisters and I were the first kids in daycare and the last ones to leave. My mom worked ridiculous hours, and eventually she just got tired of it. So, she decided to take a break. After I started at my elementary school, she planned to go back. But then, I got sick and she couldn't return to Intel. Instead, she had to take care of me full time. So, she's had to do both roles. I can't imagine doing what she did.

[@Ingu.z]

Interesting to hear someone with a "moderate" position on things from Vaush's channel. I think that's really nice in a way, it feels like touching grass to not get too absorbed into my own bubble of much more radical beliefs. Like "oh right people aren't always polar opposites".

[@twodimensional6887]

sammmeeee

[@GynxShinx]

Yeah, this interaction with a moderate hardened my leftist beliefs as far-left seeing how often centrism lets in right wing ideas.

[@marciamakesmusic]

@@GynxShinx this. Any moderate is a useful tool of the right wing because they pretend that listening to racists and fascists is pragmatic

[@caseypdx503]

@@marciamakesmusic "Any moderate is a useful tool of the right wing" some people having more trad values, doesn't equal "listening to racists and fascists is pragmatic" You can "listen" and still give pushback Are you under the delusional assumption that this person wouldn't push back on "racists and fascists" (whatever you think that means)?

[@caseypdx503]

@@GynxShinx Yeah, no sh*t: some people have more moderate views, it's okay

[@midge_gender_solek3314]

People being not interested in doing politics is not because people bad. There's a LOT of money poured into making sure no one feels that they can change anything. Speaking from an autocracy where the same happens, just in more blatant ways.

[@stormRed]

I don't advocate for forcefully obliterating gender (I doubt anyone does), but I look forward to a society where gender is as irrelevant as hair color or... Actually I can't come up with more examples because a huge deal _is_ made of every single aspect of human beings, even your hair... But I do think that gender abolition is ultimately the outcome of gender equality.

[@lordnatu]

I don't know how you'd go about forcefully obliterating gender tbh. I just think that the longer we subvert gender roles, the less gender starts to mean. If you start saying "well women don't have to be mothers they can be workers too" and then say "well they can be leaders too" and "well they can be artists too" you get closer to having women be anything, at which point it doesn't matter that you're a woman.

[@lil_weasel219]

it never will be without forcing is my opinion, because while hair color has no biologically derived personality correlates in absolute, gender does* have sex _correlates_ and thus personality correlates *gender isnt sex, but it does and always will correlate to hormone levels to some degree, because while many gendered behaviours are purely societal constructs, not absolutely all of them are, and some derive from hormone levels when talking about averages)

[@willbellamy590]

Lol never gonna happen, same with race, everyone will always care

[@lordnatu]

@@willbellamy590 Says person in world where legally enforced racism ended around 20 years ago in some countries

[@willbellamy590]

@@lordnatu it’s never going to end because a lot of people want payback so the cycle will continue forever

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I have a theory that she's a robot deisgned too attract all weebs and that's why she can't drink and eat like a normal human being and instead chomps on mini chunks and gulps tiny droplets like an anime character, so cringe. Suprised she didn't do a wink and a peace sign too the camera at the end.

[@SilvesterBathroomStallone]

She did say she liked the "Bimbo aesthetic"

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@SilvesterBathroomStallone she doesn't really look like a bimbo though, if she looks like anything it's trying too hard.

[@tomitiustritus6672]

@@SilvesterBathroomStallone Jesus... i was really confused there for a moment. In German, that word is one of the harshest racial slurs racists use towards black people. It's n-word level suicidal to say it outside of Nazi peers.

[@ezachleewright2309]

@@tomitiustritus6672 in english it's kind of a playful word for a ho

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

@@ezachleewright2309 Pretty sure it means "attractive but unintelligent or frivolous young woman." Don't know where you got "ho" from lol.

[@ManneSegerlund]

The daiting pool does not shrink until you're way into your 40s. As you get older the range of ages that you can date offsets the amount of people that are in stable relationships. It actually increases up to like 35.

[@BustDaNinja]

freckles, glasses, pouty lips? 10/10 would let her turn me into a brainlet centrist

[@seepaw9191]

This is NOT the crossover I was expecting

[@Nessa-939]

Same i recognised the name from her post on r/transtimelines from a few years ago, never expected to see it on here

[@Kaanfight]

@@Nessa-939 oh shit I didn’t even realize she was trans, she looks great!

[@seepaw9191]

@@Nessa-939 same but r/traps

[@Nessa-939]

@@seepaw9191 lmao to each their own

[@alpachinko9154]

Why is it that all these "anti hook-up culture" people come across as obsessed with the sex lives of others? Like, if you want to have sex, just go and have sex hun. We're not gonna stop you. It also just came across as someone judging others by their standards. Just because people may engage in sex before marriage etc, doesn't instantly mean they're incapable of monogamous, long term relationships, if they so desire. Have they never heard of cohabitation before?

[@gigangreg7837]

What's even more interesting about this is that Taf is a sex worker lol

[@X60Gamers]

I hate when people say gender roles, cause they aren't. It's a performance, like a clock has tons of things inside of it that perform roles to make the clock function, with gender it's a simple perfomance in the sense of a play, and engaging in x "role" is not necessary for society to function, neither is x genitalia being requied to perform x "role" is required for society t sustain itself. And ultimately saying their are roles interms of american culture i belive is what leads to gender being problematic and toxic, and damaging to society as saying "role" implies the meaning of clockwork performance instead of on-stage performance, which is so incredibly damaging for people. Also the world was good and beautiful till the western collonialist attacked.

[@PikaYoshi21]

Hooking up occurred just as often 100 years ago as it does today. Probably more so in the past.

[@Perchumovic]

Not true.

[@DarkestKnightshade]

In high society yes a man was still seen as winner based on his body count. But, as far as I can tell, it wasn't pushed on the middle and lower classes that to be more respected in society you had to sleep around.

[@Gum_Cuzzler]

Yeah, people are having way less sex now than they did at pretty much any point post WW2. Boomers are all into wife swapping while their 38 year old progeny has sexless Harry Potter movie marathons and the zoomers forgo intimacy to game for 16 hours a day.

[@SoWhosGae]

@@Gum_Cuzzler Lol. You could also argue that sex and dating and relationship were the most fun people could have back then tho so they focused more on that and even the way you were raised pushed you to that. The past few decades people have become more self-contained and sometimes having sexless HP marathons and gaming is a choice too. Some people find that easier than socializing, sex and relationships because of a mixture of nurture and the modern possibility of existing as a human being in society without anyone bothering you about those. Nowadays living as a loner is way more comfy as long as you have the economic means so lots don't feel the need to push themselves into socializing.

[@Olivetree80]

how do you know that

[@vulpixelful]

I can see why some feminine trans women and masculine trans men would be invested in defined gender roles, but don't masculine trans women and feminine trans men get erased in that investment?

[@inquisitr1892]

She called Biden a progressive and you just let her get away with that. C'mon man, you were going soft that whole discussion.

[@jaybee27D]

I mean, he is the most socially progressive president we’ve ever had, but that’s not a high bar to clear

[@benh2339]

to be fair she's a cute girl with a soft pleasant voice; it's extremely disarming.

[@italucenaz]

Would've been better if he called her out worh no wiggle room for her ideas? This is not a debate, she's not bringing dangerous info he can't platform

[@doggydoggy578]

I think he tends to be more charitable and forgiving to attractive people no matter how terrible their takes are

[@za1231in]

@@doggydoggy578 literally everyone is more charitable to attractive people..

[@MarroniMusic]

This channel is what happens when people stop going outside.

[@steph1387]

Why does April love autocracy so much? And hate on democracy?

[@se7399]

April has said she is "moderate right wing"

[@marciamakesmusic]

@@se7399 so basically a naive person who is useful by legitimizing right wing bs

[@se7399]

@@marciamakesmusic massive qoutes on the moderate part for sure.

[@alleylee8510]

@@se7399 It seems like "moderate right wing" is just code for "totally not a fascist, guys"

[@alizamanik]

I just put on Vaush's debates and work on my computer and edit my photos. It has been my life for the last 3 month :)))))

[@dustydata1540]

Felt to be honest

[@Vickyeverythingelsewastaken]

Same, Vaush has been my home office soundtrack for two years now. He's not as hyperactive as Hasan and does longer videos than Xanderhal, plus his calm baritone. It's perfect to listen to while you work.

[@MrTheWaterbear]

Hah, neat. Love listening to Vaush when doing whatever. Should also get back to editing my own photos, but all the locations make me really depressed about the logistics of traveling these days :(

[@DUWANGlai_kangyi]

This but drawing and it's been my life for a bit over two years AHSHSHSHS

[@thelordofpugs9106]

Same but with open world games Vaush has been my sort of exploration soundtrack

[@atropabelladonna]

Wow, this conversation was so much more (and more interesting) than the title suggests.

[@Dillarune]

i went to her twitter to see if theres any interesting takes, conversation, etc. and yep, not what i was expecting but theres definitely some interesting stuff on her twitter : )

[@davidbouchard2499]

As an urban planner, I confirm that North American urban planning is crap.

[@notthis9586]

"I have an opinion, but I won't stand by it, and also won't change it to a more defensible one." For almost two hours... I mean I guess that's most casual conversations but... idk I usually at least get a spectical outta these things...

[@minecrashinhard]

my city does have apartments above the shops, in the old town. everything built new is like any other city in America though. i can see why too. in the old town, there's no room for walmart, or homedepot, or bass pro, or belks. All the big stores that are, i'm assuming, global can't get the space they need. it's those companies that lobbied the local government to switch to suburbs. i wonder what european walmarts end up looking like, surely they don't adapt but instead warp the area to fit them like they did here. (edit) researching, they haven't taken hold in europe, ppl just go to multiple stores for meat, clothing, games. there's no walmart equivalent even.

[@amellirizarry9503]

on the topic of marriage and family units you all should check saint andrewism’s video “Rethinking Family” 👌

[@Ohhelmno]

The "problem" we see with hookup culture, in terms of it not on average creating more long term relationships (beyond a year or two at most) is options. It used to be hard to meet someone, it was basically random chance... or like trolling bars constantly which gets very tiring very quickly. Now, we know if we get into a relationship we have other options if this one isn't as good as we'd like. Back then, you'd better fuckin marry this one cause this might be as good as it gets cause you might only get a handful of cracks at this just by living your life and randomly running into people you have sexual attraction to. Not to mention, we were more religious back then so divorcing was just not an option for many, even if they thought their wife was a total bitch or their husband was going to the gloryhole on the weekend or whatever other problems religion brought to relationships by forcing gays or lesbians to pretend they weren't and telling people they'd go to hell if they divorced and shit. Now, we know we can get back up on the proverbial and in some ways literal horse. If we break up with someone we could be having sex with a new person like in less than a day or two if we're moved on already, ya know? So we have all the incentive in the world to not settle until we find something so good we don't think it could be better, rather than settling for okay or a relationship we don't really like but are kinda suffering because it'd be harder to break up and find someone else.

[@trustinid6721]

Coming from their reddit content, this was so fucking wild to see in my youtube feed

[@Dave102693]

What’s their name?

[@a1t3rmusic]

so how was their content?

[@MarroniMusic]

1:20 "we're not working with the brightest tools in the shed here" ffs 😂👍

[@smithblack5945]

Let me save you a few hours. Nothing happened

[@xGregglesx]

I'm realizing this about an hour in...

[@tequilasunset8628]

Pretty much lol

[@AndaraBledin]

She's using the term 'heuristic' wrong, but as to what she's speaking of: Using gender as a shorthand for modeling behavior is that modeling that behavior as related directly to gender means that you necessarily de-emphasize those traits for those that are identified (not necessarily for themselves) as a different gender. If you teach that men are strong, courageous, and stoic, not only do you alienate those who identify as male who are not strong, courageous, or stoic, teaching them that they are lesser for that lack, but by gendering those traits, you are also informing those who identify as female that they are not supposed to be any of those things due to the fact that the models are all faced to males and not to them at all, meaning that they shy away from those traits and when they do embrace those traits, they are seen as less feminine, which is also harmful. Using gender as a basis for modeling behavior leads to psychic damage to anyone who fails to fit the molds provided.

[@deenil]

The Jordan Peterson argument for gender roles (instead of religion)

[@Closer2Zero]

I never thought I’d see *that* name anywhere but reddit, certainly not here of all places

[@TheOnlyCathyCat]

Simple solution: Gender is a thing for some, it's not a thing for some others, marriage can be a good thing that some people want, not everyone has to get married. It's really up to you. Families can be a good thing if they are healthy environments. You should be respectful of other peoples ways and choices providing they are not harming people, putting others under duress in a bid to make them conform to your beliefs is a wanky thing to do. Hasan is unimportant or at least should be..... Don't thank me, just have that hour and forty-nine minutes you would have pissed away from the only life you will ever have and just move on, you know, from thinking that KZbin or the people on it are in any way useful for anything other than watching time pass by and avoiding being productive. Move on.

[@lzmunch]

Tbf ppl will just pick some equally useless videos to pass the same amt of time lol

[@allibababoo]

Working at a pizza shop ive seen multiple teenage boys get their whole hand caught in our doigh rollijg machine. In the face of gnarly violence/ physical trauma, NOTHING beats being hyper toxicly-masc. Watching this guy scream "football! This doesnt hurt!" Was both hilarious and informative. Makes sense for something like a soldier, very useful as long as they aren't in general society. Thats where all the flaws come out and terrorize everyone around.

[@Supergforce777]

Mr Vaush 😩

[@davidperezjr.3335]

Down bad But same😩

[@Supergforce777]

@@davidperezjr.3335 lmao

[@FaylunaRaRa]

32:20 The Weimar Republic would also be an example of a country getting a democracy that no one really wanted... Germany just became more democratic because the Americans wanted it and they wanted to negotiate with the Americans after WW1 since France and England would want to ruin them more... Also they pressured the kaiser into abdicating (announcing his abdication before he even agreed to it)... But they didn't really have much of a clear idea of what Germany would look like... A ton of people wanted something like a kaiser, just not one that was so pathetic... Anyway, that led to Germany being extremely progressive for a time even though it wasn't really progressive enough for the communists who took up arms and started shooting people while the rightwingers also were not happy with the democracy... You had former WW1 soldiers refusing to give up their weapons and basically patrolling the streets acting kinda authoritarian... Berlin became so chaotic that the government literally abandoned the city and moved over to Weimar... And then Hindenburg (who was kind of like a kaiser in that the president although elected basically had most of the powers of a kaiser interestingly) made Hitler chancellor... And then promptly died since he was an old guy... And so Germany's direction was still extremely uncertain and it fell to Hitler to go figure it out and he did after deciding to become both chancellor and president... Then Germany became a lot less democratic again for a time...

[@brendan1789]

I think this was one of the best pieces of productive dialogue I have seen on Vaush's channels. Absolutely solid, I hope to see more conversations like these (with just as interesting folks) in the future. I think I'm gonna give Taftaj a sub as well.

[@TheseUseless]

In vitro is the entirely external method- In vitro means in glass, it's literally just taking the components of conception and performing in glass.

[@kaydenl6836]

19:00 more decentralized business is actually far better for the community than giant conglomerates. They bring in more tax revenue, allow better density, and encourage a diversity of skill. Conglomerates often just end up beating them out by pure property size and employment, since people will commute an hour to work at Walmart but not a random trinket store.

[@soulmechanics7946]

I don't know man. I absolutely agree that with even one true friend semi-readily available happiness can prevail over any given struggle, but when you traverse the open world and find that most everyone is a piece of garbage you tend to lean toward isolation. Then again, I am acutely familiar with extended periods of isolation, and at the same time you will always find kind and respectful people. It is really simply that the measure of borderline psychotic selfish carelessness many of them embody is more impacting than the few who remind you why it is worth fighting for.

[@rache8323]

She was Blaire White lite with her positions. He should have pushed back more.

[@pooshoveler]

Marriage is a financial connection it's not bad. If you don't want to get married don't, it's up to you.

[@vapingfury4460]

Thanks poo shoveler

[@LizStaples]

Yep marriage is making your relationship a contract. Which has many benefits such as taxes and also if things go wrong there is paperwork to hold people to certain behavior

[@Religions.of.fandom]

I plan on marrying multiple people

[@Dave102693]

Agreed. Marriage is a financial contract, but anyone can do it if they want to.

[@nachocampo19]

Hahaha she did it! Saw her a couple of weeks ago I think tweeting "i want to debate vaush so bad" and here she is. Good for taftaj

[@kaydenl6836]

I’m not a gender abolitionist, because I just *do not care*. I don’t care if someone wants to slot themselves into a category, even if there is no longer a strictly defined category. I just believe it should be up the to individual. If you care about identifying yourself with a category, go for it. If you don’t care for it, then don’t do it. Simple as that. Gender, as a classification-which it is-should be something everyone is free to participate in, and free to not participate in. It can be a utility, but it’s not necessary by any means. Just like sexuality labels. It can be useful to label your sexuality, but you also absolutely don’t need to. You can live your life perfectly functionally without labeling yourself, just describing your individual characteristics of attraction. If you’re only attracted to certain people, cool, good for you. You don’t have to fit any category to live your life, but if you want to label yourself “gay”, WHO THE FUCK CARES. It’s YOU that you’re describing. To me, gender is a descriptor category just as “goth” or “jock”. You can have these categories without any harm, and people are free to fit themselves into these categories, or choose to not use any of them. They exist, and you’re free to participate or not participate.

[@Blueberry_Koi]

Not a good take honestly, nobody forces to be goth when you are born in the current society,

[@kaydenl6836]

@@Blueberry_Koi did... did you not read what I said? I said, pretty damn explicitly, that gender should be something people are FREE TO CHOOSE IF THEY PARTICIPATE IN. What about that makes you think I believe you should be given a gender and have that strictly enforced?

[@malum9478]

i like how you make a gender abolitionist argument just to...pretend you aren't.

[@Dave102693]

Based

[@galaxyocicat5660]

You're not a gender abolitionist, but then described gender abolition...

[@mars7304]

can someone who's watched this tell me if this discussion is entertaining enough to warrant watching it? I only know this person through a hippie dippie panel and they didn't exactly have the best takes. seems like a centrist, and if this is just Vaush being cordial with a centrist I don't want to invest nearly two hours into this.

[@jbark678]

42:51 No Vaush, you're accidentally advocating for the Patriot system from MGS, they've already gotten to you 🤣

[@ThySheepie]

“🤣.” It is said that in the year 2051, Vaush still hasn’t opened your message. :-)

[@zotaninoron3548]

Eh. The stewardess point Vaush makes is kind of not entirely true. It is not 50/50 on the ground. Most businesses prefer putting women in client facing customer service jobs. Most fast food places will tend to have the women at register and men in the grill. There's a bias towards putting men in the potentially riskier job like in front of the grill and to have women dealing directly with customers.

[@blakeowens5996]

These days talking to the public scarier to me than a grill lol but yes good point.

[@j0hncarp]

alright, who else recognized her a mile away from the thumbnail?

[@Cookedmaruchan]

You agree with them because they make good points I agree because theyre smoking hot, we are not the same.

[@Drakid13Re3kt]

I appreciate this is ambiguous enough to refer to either of them

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

B o n k

[@albertakesson3164]

1:16:15 - Epicuros, it's EPICUROS! My favorite greek philosopher. He made a lot of philosophy about hedonism and discovery of pleasure -- that binds to happiness. It's not really the same.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

*Epicurus

[@XiaoYueMao]

i feel like chat kept getting mad at her gender role takes because they didnt understand what she was saying, she never said gender roles should ever be associated with your sex, just that gender roles can be useful, honestly the biggest use is giving template options for those people who dont have much creativity and just like copying others etc... or whatever..... honestly the fact vaush never truely disagreed with her take should have been a red flag to chat that they are misunderstanding her

[@diamondknuckle7056]

ehhh idk her takes were kinda cringe, gender roles in general just feel like they are gonna back fire eventually and we can have template roles without ever having to introduce gender into the equation. just feels like gender is dead weight

[@PropheticShadeZ]

i disagree, and think that vaush was misunderstanding her meaning just like you, but she explicitly states that she thinks single sex households without an expressed gender binary are inefficient. i.e same sex couple arent as good at raising kids, just cause she uses a lot of words doesnt mean her opinons arent shit its just really difficult to parse where her opinons are insane, because its really well cloaked in her identity and the majority of her opinons are very well thought out, if based on bad takes sometimes.

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

You're essentially saying that chat should have agreed or understood with her just because Vaush DIDN'T disagree with her. That's not how that should work. Now, on her gender role take, what she said about men being a "rock" emotionally for others (and it seems like those "others" are almost always women in their lives) genuinely seems to be a toxic take imo. Surely she's learned by now that men (exclusively) being emotional "rocks" for others (again, mostly women) has been objectively and undeniably detrimental to them both emotionally and physically. I mean, shit, so many men have off'd themselves because of that. I can't count how many times I've felt like shit because the women in my life (mom, relatives, girlfriends) expected me to ALWAYS be like that around them all the time. Shit was exhausting, even when I thought I wanted to be like that for them. I regretted it later in life.

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

@@ianwazowski5607 Yes. (Insert Chad meme)

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

@@ianwazowski5607 I don't even call myself an "MRA," you did. And to your point, that's why I don't really bitch about women like a lot of "MRAs" do. That's why, yeah, feminism IS good. It addresses women's and men's issues. Addressing issues regarding men help women and the achievement of their rights in the long run.

[@GiltleyRage]

1:05:30 Yeah, culture has to be a big factor influencing people's choices, bigger in certain cases than others, but to suggest it's the main reason of these differences is very speculative. And the highly progressive countries Taftaj refers to (mostly Scandinavian) worked their asses off to change certain traditional mindsets about gender roles in schools, media etc. Computers for example are not boy toys anymore, everyone has one and can explore them further so it will be interesting to see the trends in the future for most recent generation raised with the technology. I don't want to quote Jordan Peterson, but for me it's not that crazy idea that because of biology most women can be more interested in people while most men more interested in things. We know that we have some changes in aggressiveness, agreeableness, empathy amongst the sexes, they not as severe as conservatives tend to think, but they manifest themselves in extremes (if you take for example 100 most aggressive people, they most likely will be all men), so that's something to think about.

[@maxsmart9116]

Nah, my ex girlfriend was pretty aggressive

[@GiltleyRage]

@@maxsmart9116 Would you place her amongst the 100 most aggressive people on the planet? ;)

[@gigangreg7837]

This is a very silly gripe but the ASMR-y voice and the puckery expression are, somehow, annoying

[@SusieEffin]

that breathy voice would be distracting on any woman lol. i was just thinking about how low representation there was in hollywood. But wouldn't trans people make the best actors? i couldn't hold character that long, seems exhausting.

[@jeffjones8572]

Her Twitter holy

[@coldercoronet6248]

Check out her reddit

[@valloyola]

Vaush is on his king shit 😤

[@jeffjones8572]

@@coldercoronet6248 I lost x2

[@blubastud]

35:22 OMG she was spitting bars!!!

[@shiny_teddiursa]

I feel like gender in the way we see it today could gradually dissipate once more aspects of our society become automated, especially blue collar labor and the military. I just can’t see a society like the US with an enormous military industrial complex just getting rid of traditional masculinity, the US military (and pretty much any nations military) currently requires a shit ton of unguided/aggressive men to turn into dogs in order to uphold its geopolitical stance.

[@inkarnator7717]

I think Vaush's perception of the tribal society where you "fuck whoever" is completely unfounded. There are burial findings that strongly suggest that the nuclear family is a super ancient concept. Of course it probably changes from culture to culture and from species to species (e.g. neanderthals), so it is very ambiguous, but just assuming that cavemen and cavewomen had no sexual hierarchies is presumptuous.

[@BiancaTallarico]

My bad I just watched other Taftaj videos and politically she's for a weird moral authoritarianism or elitism but where elites are weeded out for the best moral equivalent. She doesn't like democracy. She's pretty young in her political thought. I hope she thinks through her philosophies and see how problematic they are. She tends to criticize progressives too. I hope she sees there's different flavors of progressivism. I had to unsub from her. Her live stream was a cringe when it came to politics.

[@alleylee8510]

People like her are honestly kinda sad. They're fash, and so desperately want to be part of that community, yet will never be since literally every other fascist hates them simply because of who they are.

[@svelvet119]

1:35:50 am i missing some explanation for why the chart adds up to a total of 113%?

[@r.h.f.6073]

damn, so i'm just an internet soap opera enjoyer. i'm having an existential crisis rn cause she's so right about that.

[@AndaraBledin]

Regarding why a lot of jobs that have over-representation of women is almost entirely due to lower wages. Men fight for the high-paying, high-value jobs and women are left to the lower-status positions, and over time, they become associated with gender despite the fact that it's not that the job is based on gender, but that the gender-proportion was based on the job.

[@jakobc.2558]

She has such a ASMR voice, it is crazy. Is she just constantly making that voice or is this her natural voice?

[@ThySheepie]

Well no her natural voice is a lot deeper considering she’s trans, though it may have become her natural voice

[@lucimicle5657]

I don't think the nuclear family unit is really that impactful on the community feeling that we get, as much as the type of work we do and how we spend that time. Like, whether you are poorer or richer, if you spend most of your day away from home working OR inside the house on the computer, then all the time you have left at home will be spent resting, not socializing with the neighbor. I am thinking of my younger days in my Grandparents village in Eastern Europe, a lot of people still worked in agriculture, ergo, outside and close to each other.

[@cloudangel64]

Can she stop trying to seduce you for one second

[@timeisup3094]

Lmao

[@ObliviousPenguin]

How was she trying to seduce him?

[@hoominbeeing]

How was she trying to seduce him?

[@se7399]

Bruh

[@cloudangel64]

@@hoominbeeing she immediately starts negging him within the first ten seconds of the video. mispronouncing his name. backhanded comments. classic negging

[@EasyWater]

Men definitely aren't emotionally stable or emotionally fulfilled. In normal interactions they do joke, have fun, smile, laugh etc, but it's often accompanied by a half-joking half-serious competitiveness, that can often delute sincerity. Men also show strong emotions: anger, jealousy, rage etc. The issue would be being more sincere, tender, and finding other outlets for strong emotions than violence or bitterness.

[@SunnyMuffinsRox]

feels like she doesn't have any real positions on any topic

[@lurkingposter]

Felt like she was hiding her power level the whole time.

[@kingofmariokart64]

@@Bellitchi You keep trying to justify your envy. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so obsessed with find a flaw. Relax.

[@lawrence4301]

I don't know how you could arrive at that conclusion when she clearly does articulate positions on topics. That seems incredibly dishonest.

[@bigbawlzlebowski8886]

@@Bellitchi as a lefty, I prefer her over a leftist woman considering the left will shame you for wanting to get married and have kids.

[@LucasDimoveo]

"Artificial wombs" was the term you were looking for

[@belablanck]

She seems to have some essentialist bias here

[@Sqwivig]

40:43 HEYA! I'M FROM WYOMING! (I hate it here please rescue me 😭)