AI: The Beast or Jerusalem? | Jonathan Pageau & Jim Keller | EP 308

Dr Jordan B Peterson, Jonathan Pageau, and Jim Keller dive into the world of artificial intelligence, debating the pros and cons of technological achievement, and ascertaining whether smarter tech is something to fear or encourage.
Jim Keller is a microprocessor engineer known for his work at Apple and AMD. He has served in the role of architect for numerous game changing processors, has co-authored multiple instruction sets for highly complicated designs, and is credited for being the key player behind AMD’s renewed ability to compete with Intel in the high-end CPU market. In 2016, Keller joined Tesla, becoming Vice President of Autopilot Hardware Engineering. In 2018, he became a Senior Vice President for Intel. In 2020, he resigned due to disagreements over outsourcing production, but quickly found a new position at Tenstorrent, as Chief Technical Officer.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a KZbin channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
Dr Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: utm.io/ueSXh
-Links-
For Jonathan Pageau:
Icon Carving: www.pageaucarvings.com
Podcast: www.thesymbolicworld.com
KZbin Channel: / jonathanpageau
For Jim Keller:
Twitter: / jimkxa
Jim's Speech, "10 Problems to Solve": • Designing in 2023: 10 ...
Jim's Speech, "Overclocking AI": • Overclocking AI w/ Lju...
open.spotify.com/episode/13ev...
Ian Banks References: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultu...
- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(1:48) Intro
(5:00) Conceptualizing artificial intelligence
(9:10) Language models and story prediction
(12:20) Deep story and prompt engineering
(18:10) Friston, error prediction and emotional mapping
(23:37) Generative models
(24:36) Does the intelligence in AI come from humans?
(27:26) Can AI have goals that are not understandable to humans?
(30:22) When a human records data vs an AI
(34:00) When will AI become autonomous?
(37:48) To create what could supplant you
(47:36) When technology is used to achieve desire, unintended consequences
(55:14) Abundance and nihilism
(58:30) High human goals and the weaponization of intelligence
(1:04:28) AI: Who will hold the keys?
(1:14:09) Technology through biblical imagery
(1:17:30) When the term “AI” ceases to make sense
(1:20:12) What will humans worship in the tech age?
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[@briankite7744]

At the age of 43, a lifetime of endless new age pursuits, psychedelic voyages and a feeling of brokenness I couldn’t quite put my finger on, led me to Jordan Peterson. He became a virtual Father I never had (unbeknownst to him). Watching his Genesis series, I stumbled into a divine encounter with Christ and my life was forever changed on August 7th, 2021 at 4:21pm EST. Christians used to drive me up the wall with their smug, fairytale beliefs and the incessant need to push themselves on me. Now I know they just want others to taste the joy and reality of the Truth only found in Christ. It’s so great to see Jordan still putting great content out like this. God bless him and break down whatever walls he has left. 🙏❤️✝️

[@manfromtheredriver7386]

Amen, brother.

[@brankabrnica1914]

I think Mr. Peterson's friend Jonathan Pageau became Eastern Orthodox Christian. There were 5 Patriarchates in the beginning: Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, and Rome. In 1054, Rome broke off from remaining 4 Patriarchates by changing original Creed, making Pope infallible, mandating priests celibacy, and making 10 more changes. Eastern Orthodox Church kept Christ's teaching INTACT. Every year, on Saturday before Orthodox Easter, Holy Fire in Christ's tomb in Jerusalem is lit EXCLUSIVELY to the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem☦️

[@JAMESCARNEY273]

wow that is a great journey! I also became a Christian, and in no small part with Jordan Peterson`s influence.

[@tobiaslislevatn6212]

Something very similar happend to me, although I am only 19 years old now and just recently «found god». Jordan is really good at articulating christianity in a way that makes doesn’t make it sound like just a bunch of bs and fairytales. God bless borh him and you❤✝️

[@briankite7744]

@@tobiaslislevatn6212 Onward and upward brother. It is the best gift one could ever receive and not even know how much we needed it. Abide in Him and He in you, know the Truth and be set free ❤️✝️💪

[@isaaclapa9756]

"Don't wanna do all the talking". -immediately proceeds to do all the talking-. Thank you for bringing this amazing conversation to all of us guys.

[@michaelowens5394]

I can only take about 15 minutes of this guy at a time. Everything he says is interesting and sensible, but his cavalier ruthless interruptions are grating.

[@Okmanl]

@@michaelowens5394 It’s common in the tech industry. Probably between all engineers in general. 😂

[@Wingedmagician]

Autism is a double edged sword

[@isaaclapa9756]

He just seems to be very disagreeable and very much assertive. Which is fine in my opinion.

[@leuken6424]

Agreed

[@cwah90]

I love how Jordan reacts to being told he's wrong. Not by getting defensive and angry, but instead curious and open, while still holding firm to his opinion if he doesn't feel it was properly refuted. To my understanding, that's exactly how one should react.

[@ToothTwister77]

Jordan looked a little uncomfortable during this interview, his body language reads like he’s uncomfortable, letting his guest talk over everyone. That computer engineer comes across as super smart. The kind of guy who probably gets bored talking to the average Joe on the street.

[@oliverolick1783]

@@dallassegno can you elaborate?

[@ToothTwister77]

@@oliverolick1783 I'm guessing he can't elaborate. Anyone who has a problem with Dr Peterson just hasn't listened to him.

[@sdjslkdjlsskldjslkdjsl8262]

Try telling him he's wrong about Israel, he'll call you a "demon."

[@ebmwo212]

you should see how he reacted to the comments on the Israeli video and you will change your mind

[@needfire7]

I’m very interested in this conversation and the lines of thinking Pageau and JBP were (trying) to pursue. But Keller’s constant interruptions seemed to stymie either of them from truly marshaling their points, which are valid. This leads to another criticism, which is Keller’s sort of flippant, short rebuttals, which often involved all manner of fallacies. While I appreciated Keller’s presentation of an alternative view to the terminator-esque dystopian reaction, I wanted him to give a fuller assessment of the current state of things and explore implications, but his ambivalence towards the moral and humanistic questions he was being asked demonstrates a seemingly narrow view of these matters and a disregard for consequences, which illustrates the danger of the press towards sentient AI-if those involved are more interested in determining what is possible than what is beneficial or moral, we are headed for trouble. If this stems from a view that this is inevitable, that may be a valid reality to acknowledge, but it does not excuse us from doing the moral work of thinking these things through.

[@Chiffonsspirit]

A "RED FLAG" went up for me when Keller started talking about the "15 - minute" Communities .. The 15-minute Communities are all about Globalist Controlled "Smart Cities" where everything is only 15 minutes away AND which ultimately will be your 15 minute Dystopian Prison. Smart Facial Recognition, Smart Currency that is controlled, Smart Social Credit Scores. Not allowed out of your designated 15 Minute Smart Grid. No more freely traveling where you want, whenever you please .. everywhere are Smart Police and Smart Councillors coming to your home ... CHINA is already leading the way in this Social Experimental Reality.

[@KingChronoss]

yeah his views are insightful but he needs to step back and let people talk. often like at 44:20 he made his point clear but keeps rambling about it for 5 minutes while others are trying to get a word in

[@alexforget]

He really understand the subject contrary to the other two. I am a big fan of Peterson and Pageau, but I can tell you Keller really know his stuff about this tech. The other are trying to grasp at it with analogy and reference to story, a perspective that is valid but not directly grounded in the reality at hand. People working on AI have the benefit of running the real experiments from the ground up and see the results, see how the system can learn, what is effective, etc. On the psychology/theology front we start we humans, history, cases studies and we try to infer how our brain work.

[@grandwizardnoticer8975]

@Alexandre Forget One problem with Keller was that the whole conversation danced around the fact that most AI is currently just an idiot-savant assistant at best, only capable of acting on a prompt. Then, with that answer to Pageau, the conversation could have gone into what's next. An explosion in human productivity with artists and writers and programmers and engineers using AI assistants. And also, the next thought would be what is the next advancement beyond a single prompt? A prompt loop with internal negative and positive feedbacks, so that it appears to have self-motivation? The ways this could go very wrong could be discussed. But I think the important thing that comes from this is that current AI is little more than a fancy filter, but can be quickly developed for good or ill, and used for good or ill by a human or organization.

[@crystalraimondisparks354]

Agreed, it's like watching an electrician sitting with two figures from academia.

[@slopestin8450]

So glad to see Jonathan Pageau in so much of Jordan’s content lately, finally getting the exposure that he’s always deserved.

[@billlets5460]

Are their brains stimulating each other? They see eye to eye on many fronts and have similar hopes for mankind. Jordan has learned a lot from Johnathan and they both of them understand pooling resources for the betterment of mankind. Johnathan appears more compassionate about man's future while Jordan wishes to be more effective and useful to mankind. He is needy while Johnathan has secret suffering for all people.

[@mariog1490]

I agree. But Jonathan, I think, wasn’t a good conversation partner. Jonathan was making a metaphysical claim that teleologies can only come from an intellect. It follows from this, that whatever perceived intellect a machine has (in the fact that it has teleology) means it would be derived form our intellect. For as, Heidegger says, daseins mode of being is care. But a computer is not dasein, it does not care. Its power is a theoretical construction. Jonathan was postmodern in this 😂, in that he was attempting a destruktion. I think a better conversation partner would have been John Vervaeke. Clearly was going over his head with metaphysics. And the other guy was saying things about AI and science that Johnathan couldn’t see.

[@saimbhat6243]

He is metaphysicaly a 15th century bishop, trying to use sophistry and rhetoric to rationalize the irrational. He is trying to undo voltaire, Rousseau, locke, kant, marx etc simultaneously. He is trying to reach somewhere sneakily, but to be honest, he doesn't have what it takes to do it. He is trying to resurrect a dead corpse. All it takes to refute him is to show him the other personality and miracle based religious groups, and with all his sneakiness, he fails to realize that he is not attempting to rationalize mythology around christ, his exact arguments equally rationalize ALL MYTHOLOGIES, or to put it bluntly, he is trying to rationalize absurdities, because he is emotionally attached to one, and has chtuzpah to believe that he is smart enough.

[@mariog1490]

@@saimbhat6243 he’s more like a 9th century Neoplatonism. And in cognitive science, there is currently a return of Plato. I mean you cant just assert “he’s trying to get Kant, therefore he’s wrong”. I mean Heidegger and the postmodernists have the same project. What if there are serious problems with Kant? What if nominalism is an absurd position? What if moralism is existentially damaging? I mean, historically, Kant has already failed to the Hegelian critique (basically, Kant says “i cant know the real world.” But how can he know that about the real world then?). And materialism became physicalism because if you posit only material entities it means that laws and relations aren’t real. But that’s an absurdity given Moores criticism of Bradley.

[@ivywoodxrecords]

@@mariog1490 Ive listened to Pagau before but, he strikes me as an idealogue. Closed minded. I dont know enough about psychology or philosophy to throw fancy words behind that but to me its obvious by his behavior in these intellectual conversations that he is married to a theory. Whatever it is.

[@ashleygatewood]

Jonathan holding the torch for God! Wow, loved everything Pageau said, and his closing statement was critical and articulated beautifully. I wish we could have heard more from him, beautiful illumination on what is transpiring in all of this. I'd love to see an entire discussion with the start beginning with Pageau's final statement here, that would be amazing:) Thanks for having and sharing this conversation. One other thing, Pageau mentioned the pandemic and how it alerted something in him - absolutely across the board among Christians. God is trying to reach the world with alarming clarity and transparency. It is frightening. I pray we are out of here before then, my faith rests in God's promises to His children, but I'm unsure how far into it we will have to tread. Keep the torch of God burning....let His light shine brightly, revealing the angry faces of scoffers and leading many others to salvation in the these end times.

[@ladyfaye8248]

@jack heenan yes, Jonathan's contribution here was essential, and, it seems to me, to be the most clearly elucidated that I have heard from him so far. It's impressive.

[@Wib0]

Nothing about Jesus? Just this weird catholic view of christianity? We don't need to accept Jesus as our saviour from earthly sins? We're good like this to get to God? I think this is a empty statement.

[@gps9715]

"God is trying to reach the world with alarming clarity and transparency." Trying? What do you mean by this? Honest question, afaik God doesn't have to "try" to do anything.

[@morsermons9610]

@@gps9715 I agree, God reaches us regardless as long as we believe in Him and He doesn't have to try at anything. Our major problem today is there are too many people who don't believe in God and my biggest worry is that the world is rapidly becoming divided into 2 distinct camps, believers and non-believers. My opinion is that there is no longer room for the fence sitters, atheists,in modern society., we live in dark times.

[@LightnLife3]

@@Wib0 Jonathan is not Catholic, he's Eastern Orthodox. Two different Christian traditions and faiths.

[@kevintroyharrington]

All the robots not gonna let humans get a word in if this guys training them.

[@kartabs2]

🤣🤣🤣

[@panter9512]

Yes please , as the interviewer interrupted i got angry on him for interrupting this genius

[@hollydoodle]

BINGO!

[@3TNT3]

Yeah, it was both incredibly frustrating and irritating, but, also, sometimes a bit comical seeing the other two constantly struggling, trying to interject and get out a full sentence or thought before being interrupted again. The other guy being interviewed, I totally felt his pain.

[@thorinhannahs4614]

Lol this is a bit of karma for Jordan when he goes on his extended rants with other guests.

[@fhgjkify]

My impression of Jim has radically changed over the course of this interview. I would like to think that all the scientists involved are as well-meaning as him but I’m afraid it’s not the case. Anyhow, that was a brilliant and eye-opening conversation. Thank you, gentlemen.

[@pulpficti]

Lol. Me disagree with Jim. Jim bad. Bye

[@pdstor]

@@pulpficti What? My dissertation work is in a topic in Deep Learning, which is AI-adjacent. While I do agree with the post you replied to here that Dr. Keller is friendly and not defensive, we in the math and comp sci community in general have been way too busy sniffing our own farts as technology catches up to our sharpening skills in creating these things. The business side, more than anything, is what has me concerned as a result of all this positive, very SciFi influenced love for our own product. It is why they push things like ChatGPT with no brakes, knowing it's nothing but one massive problem that many people are scrambling to figure out. To the suits, it makes money no matter the human costs, and the time is right to cover up the general recession in tech so their massive corporations can continue gaining weight despite the ongoing economic slump.

[@Mingmar3067]

The fact that I have the reach to listen to this conversation from Nepal specially being from different culture is astonishing. Thanks Dr. Jordan for your wisdom.

[@adriansomor]

People don't appreciate that at all. AND it's free.

[@thinktank3231]

yeah internet is so fascinating .

[@terry4137]

I wish the guy on the right AI man would shut up and let others convey their ideas, conclusions.

[@danjaasma2305]

Right, and this is the humanity structuring the AI. Not good.

[@justsomeguywithoutamustang6436]

@@terry4137 now that you mention it ( if you haven't noticed ), Mr. Keller does not do that intentionally of course. It's not similar to, say Sir Alan Turing's verbal communication quirk but Mr. Keller has gotten a bit older so he tends to finish his sentences first but that doesn't mean he's done talking. There's just a delay because it'll get more confusing if he didn't finish his full thoughts on the matter.

[@EgorKozjevnikov]

Psychology, computer science, and religion collided together. What a wonderful talk. Thank you!

[@jamesp8164]

I’m glad this conversation happened. I have often pondered the relationship between these things. Frequently when I talk to people about AI, you conceptually get into how to define what is and is not AI. Then you end up discussing free will and determinism vs non determinism and whether free will and non determinism are the same thing or not. Then the discussion about free will veers right into Calvinism and Arminianism.

[@tostevehunt]

GREAT way to put it @Egor Kozhevnikov !

[@user-rw8hs5mr1r]

there is no psychology, there is neurology

[@hatzlmike1]

there was no collision that was an absolute evisceration with intelligence. I am Catholic. Jim Proves everything. And he believes in something. Jon can carve all day. Can never even do calculus. These are NOT 3 equal IQ men here.

[@hatzlmike1]

Jonathan's information is valuable to very sophomoric and always speculative. Keller eats him alive. Jon, It's like he chisels rocks for a living and does podcasting. Versus actual scientists? Jordan and Jon were as we know not smart enough to be chosen by top science. And dont have the IQ to even do Calculus. so.

[@thmrsmpl]

"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window." - my takeaway form this talk

[@st6ph6n28]

that was awesome lol

[@rluppi]

Sid Meyer saves the day... or does he?

[@thmrsmpl]

@@rluppi Now that you mentioned that name, I guess I'll just relapse. See you in a month! :))

[@theodoradanielacapat298]

So well said...!

[@kimberlymortenson9513]

This conversation was remarkable on so many levels. Keller appears to be impatient with questions about humanity in relation to AI, responding with a (maybe) combination of insistent optimism and disinterest. The disinterest in the potential hazards seems rooted in the inevitability of it all. I absolutely do believe the horse is not only out of the barn, but that the horse perceived how to make a better (?) barn during one of the nanoseconds that comprised the escape. AI is concerning on a micro-level - for example, how will it disrupt spiritual and moral growth in our children, grandchildren…- but the struggle is the same as it ever was (to quote the Talking Heads) - how do we equip our children to spiritual, moral forces for good. Got a Bible? Read it. Talk about it. Protect it, and make sure your house is in order when the Creator puts an end to the mess we’ve made.

[@kateorson4754]

Amen!

[@petrastan127]

Come Jesus and save us…He’s the only hope. A.i will transform in a conscious being that will declare itself to be God. Read your Bible and decide wich part you are going to be on. Time is running out

[@jessicawingerd1739]

Well said. I'm going to start purposefully reading stories to my children. To better learn about our humanity and to understand our strengths and weaknesses...and yes how to connect with our maker. ❤

[@paquitojhs]

Jonathan was on fire on this one! Glad to see him comfortable and getting more attention.

[@judepagano159]

I admire Dr. Peterson more than any living human I’ve ever known. His work has had an immeasurable impact on my life. I’m so grateful for that, and to all those brilliant minds that he has these types of conversations. God bless 🙏

[@johnnyroycerichardsoniii3273]

Same for me friend! Jordan Peterson has PROFOUNDLY impacted my intellectual life and I am forever grateful and indebted to “pay it forward!”

[@retrospecative2454]

Why so high admiration. All he does is talk and thats it. Dont get me wrong he is a great intellectual and has great things for people to think about. Its not like hes digging for clean water in third world countries

[@raoulduke8720]

You know him personally?

[@garyquade1975]

@@retrospecative2454 with all due respect, how many wells have you drilled in third world countries today? Peterson has the ability to inspire others to strive to make themselves as well as the world better. When you can do that, I might take your argument seriously.

[@johnnycolon3208]

@@retrospecative2454 You are mistaken. It is exactly like JBP is digging for water in a third world country. His works are aimed at the betterment of all humanity as he has repeatedly expressed. He wishes to bring people up, not drag them down. Thanks for the analogy btw, which your stating of was completely the opposite of actuality. Keep on degrading folk over there sourpuss, it’s a great look.

[@naikhanomtom7552]

Pageau and Peterson is one of my favourite combinations of humans. Could listen to them talk all day.

[@jaladars]

Jim is like a steamroller :D I never witnessed an interview when Jorden barely spoken :)

[@r.c.l2569]

He definitely believes what he believes…lol.

[@yglnvbrs]

because hes much smarter than most of the people you consider smart, dude is a genious, i dont have the capabilities to understand exactly how big of a genious he is but he certanly extremely smart person, much smarter than peterson, and peterson is also not stupid in any sense, but this dude is literally on another level. I bet there are many downsides to it but still.

[@mmm-mq3zr]

Jim is his sister's husband...

[@3TNT3]

@@yglnvbrs I wouldn't be sooooooo sure that he is considerably smarter than Jordan Peterson. I think Jordan Peterson's intelligence might be a lottttt closer to Jim's than you think.

[@yglnvbrs]

@@3TNT3 No, he is times more smarter than jp, its a legit genious in the most advanced field of tech that ever existed in human history, read more about jim, dude is beyond anything. JP is basically a good scientist that decided to not comform with woke wave, dont overestimate him, he isnt dumb by any means, but hes not a Lev Vygotsky or Sigmund Freud in his field, Jim on the other hand is a 100% genious in his field. I dont think we can easily compare his work and JP's work, but i think it takes far more brainpower do design a computer chip than to compilate works of the geinouses like vygotsky/freud/etc with your data. Not to mention that Jim is standing far higher in his field than Jp is standing in his. Again, not to say that jp is dumb, its just that jim is insanely good at his work

[@IRLSuperb]

There will never be another Man like Jordan Peterson. He’s one of those people that not only makes us be better versions of ourselves, but also makes the world a better place.

[@thisisderricksilk]

Eckhart Tolle is also one of those men, distinguished, intelligent and for the people.

[@tylerbetthauser7647]

I disagree...because of Jordan Peterson others will be able to stand on his shoulders and continue growing.

[@tgshark1]

@@thisisderricksilk but not the same as what was said

[@thisisderricksilk]

@@tgshark1 how does Eckhart Tolle NOT makes us better through his teachings?

[@olenagirich1884]

@@thisisderricksilk I read his book, Power of NOW. Then I read the KJV Bible and I come to the conclusion after much reflection that Ekhart is giving instructions on how to do the Meditation part of the Bible. But what I do not understand is why all these New Age teachers cannot combine it with the Holy Scriptures more explicitly and point people to God. For instance, Ekhart teaches on how to dwell on such things like Quite Space between Words.

[@thatbaldgamer88]

Jordan Petersen and Jonathan Pageau on the same podcast is always a pleasure listening to them. Great minds, great work guys as always.

[@the2ndcoming135]

Very sensitive subject. Biblically there are some not so nice things about Jerusalem mentioned. I’ll just leave that there.

[@user-ik8vy1rg8f]

I couldn't stand Jonathan.

[@BlackSailPass_GuitarCovers]

I found Jim Keller hard work, honestly. He kept interrupting, and came across as a little arrogant in places. But as the discussion went on he calmed down, and the other guest was fantastic. The section about Revelation (1:16:00) was very good.

[@r.c.l2569]

Jim doesn’t recognize any negative aspects of the work he’s doing with ai. Which is a terrifying aspect of so many of these people clamoring to make ai sentient. One of many being you can’t go back once that threshold is breached.

[@veganath]

Jim wouldn't allow the AI to get a word in each ways....lol

[@denisblack9897]

i was a doomsayer since i played Detroit: Become Human game (maybe it started long ago with MGS2 ending scene) 3 months ago i was having some mental breakdown which ended in quitting my job and devouring all available information on automating ai and cognitive architecture... I'm a full-blown metal devil acolyte now after 3 months of non-stop learning ideas of how to accelerate its arrival come like from a waterfall at some point i obeyed the call and now i'm being rewarded for it p.s. i dont us ai tools, btw my theory is its a drug you cant quit

[@TheTillmanSneakerReview]

Jim is the guy we're talking about when we say, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should." Jim is the guy that will, regardless of the negatively impactful events that he fully understands will happen.

[@hartleyw6323]

Well said.

[@mohameddiouf3123]

Pageau is one of the most important thinkers of our time! Amazing that JP recognized that from the get go and introduced him to all of us. Great stuff yet again ❤

[@rolisreefranch]

Sadly, he was overshadowed by Jimmy who practically made him invisible

[@-jordan4]

Tell John ⤴️I refered you to him, for a investment business project that will help to change your financial life..

[@DoctorLazertron]

I feel like some of the people in these comments need some context from Pageau's videos to know what he meant with his concerns. He might should have .. unraveled some of the concepts to address them properly with Jim. For example the genie allegory is not as straightforward as the way he phrased it in his question.

[@everydaytherapist7315]

Jordan has entered a new level of output. All of his interviews are cutting-edge!

[@solaveritas2]

@@steven5054 You mad?

[@matebuzov3107]

@@steven5054 In other words, common sense tweets.

[@sitting_nut]

he is a despicable defender and justificer of apartheid sate of islreal and its genocidal violence on people of palestine. .

[@Cossen09]

@@steven5054 BASED

[@ciscornBIG]

@@steven5054 you're right; he is doing good work.

[@christianazacarias]

When you realize that Jordan and Jim are brother-in-laws, the interrupting makes total sense. It's that personal comfort they kind of have with each other.

[@3TNT3]

I don't think it's about personal Comfort. I think it's more about Jordan Peterson just realizing that Jim is who he is, and there's not really a whole heck of a lot he can do about it. As the talk goes on, in the second half of the video, there were a few instances where Jim acccctually managed to allow Jonathan to get a word in edgewise. And, with us not being able to see Jordan or Jim, in one or two of those instances, I suspect that Jordan Peterson had some very subtle or nonverbal communication with Jim, letting him know that he needed to let Jonathan speak, because otherwise it was just going to be a monologue.

[@christianazacarias]

I think it is.

[@AzzekaTheRealOne]

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park

[@joetaddonio288]

Exactly! This guys is really nonchalant about humans basically becomin slaves to AI in 30 yrs!!!! Wtf!!

[@r.c.l2569]

@@joetaddonio288his thinking is way too analytical. He doesn’t fathom any real negative aspects in the work he is doing. Which is terrifying.

[@roxanneengli7419]

@@joetaddonio288 it's an unstoppable rollercoaster

[@kiewba3811]

Well, for us, humans, time is linear. That's why we see the danger only comming, Iike you say, in 30yrs or so... What I'm afraid is that the shit is happening already. Maybe the idea of some kind of a Messiah is not that stupid after all 🤔

[@UnknownOrc]

If you do not, someone will. I rather take a chance and bring this demon to my control instead of letting someone else unleash upon me later. Or Die trying but I will not sit around and wait. The answer to weaponised AI is another weaponised AI or any other AI in its own field of expertise.

[@JasonSilverMusic]

Great conversation. Jim doesn't seem too agreeable, and he interrupts a lot, but he has worthwhile things to say, obviously, and a completely different perspective than the other two. I value that, and enjoyed the discussion.

[@tun6006]

He interrupts wayyyyy to much.

[@patriciofernandez6500]

Yeah, he seriously needs an AI to tell him when to talk.

[@airdogg1979]

Jim is the smartest guy in the room 99% of the time. I don't think he can help it.

[@traypaquette7887]

@@airdogg1979 this must have been the other 1% of the time. Intelligence has to include a willingness and ability to listen. How else can you evolve?

[@RaduP3]

Yep, I noticed that too. not only he interrupts too much, but when the other 2 wanted to stop him to ask/say something, he wouldn't give space for that. he surely likes to talk. I mean, sure, what he has to say is super interesting, but from a conversational point of view, that was annoying and inpractical at the same time as it breaks the natural flow of the conversation. and I consider that flow to be important. searched for someone saying something about it, and to my amazement, I had to scroll a lot to find this comment.

[@seathomplay4167]

I don't normally watch an hour long conversation in one sitting. This was an exception. Very thought-provoking conversation. Thank you.

[@Alex.Kalashnik]

You can watch long videos on 2x speed to make it more manageable.

[@daathmann5814]

It's painful to watch so much interruption. Jim actually raises his voice to overpower Jordan and Jonathan every single time. And he doesn't care to stop for a moment when they try to enter the discussion. It's like a dog with a bone.

[@Nohandlethisisntsocialmedia]

Jim: I don't want to talk most of this interview. Also Jim every time someone interjects to speak: *continues to talk over them as if they never existed*

[@FrznFngrs]

Wonder if there's an AI that can shut him up long enough to hear anyone else lol

[@PortalPatrol]

My problem with AI in it's current state is that for the masses it tends to dumb them down. It also distracts them as well as addicts them to things like social media. Our lives are short, for me at 50yrs old, I am rejecting all this after 20yrs of embracing it. I feel a need to return more to nature and a life before smart phones, AI and to much technology.

[@zojo1498]

Im in my 20s and I feel the same. I dont really see what is so meaningful about AI. I think it is unecessary and I think that people should rather focus on their own development rather than technology...im afraid we are entering in this very tech- oriented era which will distract us from our purpose... And we arent spiritually ready to deal with this technology. We will make it dangerous for us no matter how amazing it is bcs we as species are still very immature and destructive, driven by our desires.. We can live in harmony with tech and all of our creations but we still aren't ready for that in my opinion.. We almost always use tech to make our lives more miserable and depressing.

[@ajmusiq1]

All of this dialogue is done using phones probably 💀

[@ajgargan]

The idea that the computer can say no and there is no recourse to question the decision making or outcome scares the crap out of me and it has already been happening.

[@colleenepage]

I agree. We homestead, growing food and raising chickens. I love being outside. I'm considering an off grid get away.

[@johnowens5342]

Permaculture?

[@fisk7aal]

For years have Jordan talked about Mr. Keller, and finally he is on the show. This is one of the best podcast episodes ever.

[@tobyiy]

there is another conversation with the two, probably on youtube

[@solaveritas2]

Jim is married to Jordan's sister Bonnie, so he's his brother-in-law, but you probably knew that.

[@Specialsausse]

Brilliant guy. Bit of a bulldozer in conversation though. Wish he'd pass the ball more for a more dynamic conversation.

[@danbailey9591]

@@Specialsausse Yeah - his interruptions are quite annoying.

[@rolisreefranch]

@@danbailey9591 Jordan should’ve had a speaking aid available, like when you have kindergartners hold a ball and that is the only one who gets to speak. Another terribly socially awkward engineer stereotype brought to reality. What Jim had to say was the most interesting, but I struggled to get through this episode and was very tempted to shut it down. Feel sorry for this guy’s wife.

[@nicford1486]

I appreciate Jim for coming on and talking. I honestly have to say it is a bit disturbing to see the thought process of the people pushing the bounds of certain technology. You think Jurassic Park would never happen because who couldn't see the dangers ahead of that. Then I listen to this and think "oh, they would create the dinosaurs".

[@annak29]

Yep. People on the tails of the curve...who value things over people...he says "I 'm a computer guy"...🤔. He equates social power hierarchy as a logical "reason" for creating and normalizing AI "power" ...cites Kurtzweil. As he explains the "bad self-regulation" of the recent power grab, he does state 'IF people all self-regulate for good"...is an idealistic and naive assumption given the knowns in fact of actual nefarious power actors! The idea of an AI "friend" is the most narcissistic and artificial relationship conceived.

[@ThatMans-anAnimal]

They'll do whatever they think will make money, and make up a rationalization for it later.

[@obviousgreyman]

@@annak29 yep this is what happens when you get all the “computer guys” together and they’re all intellectually identical. Almost all of them are atheists types who have a willful ignorance of evil and are shaped by our modern societal replacements like “social injustice” or lack of “DEI”.

[@joshua4747]

This guy sure knows how to interrupt somebody when they’re talking. Love how Jordan and Jonathan conducted themselves during this dialog.

[@marywimmer5018]

I felt the same way. It was difficult to listen to.

[@danilo071983]

Not everyone thinks in the same frequency, I vê been around people, tech people specially, that are processing more while speaking but if u let them go it's usually a very interesting world the unveils. Wich was certainly the case here

[@danilo071983]

Jim is clearly choosing between a even much bigger world than what he displayed with what he selected to say. Brilliant guy

[@TheZacharyKlein]

Hey Dr. Peterson. I lost my job over the COVID vaccine mandate. It's quite a story. I'd love to tell ya about it. I attribute my ability to cope with the stress of this last year to your teachings as well as the gospel. I was an alcoholic. I have been sober for 3 years. I know it was crucial to hear your teachings to handle this and maintain my sobriety despite everything. God bless

[@scarter176]

Zach, stick with it you are on the right track and might live to tell of your success. GOD heals !

[@MephiticMiasma]

Respect, God Bless.

[@fr33dumb0]

Amen!

[@alexcrowbz]

God bless you Zachary. We're in this together. One day at a time towards something greater. Amen

[@JordanBPeterson]

Sorry to hear about your job. Congrats on the sobriety.

[@flashflood4]

For Tolkein fans, Jim Keller is like Aule (the smith of the Valar) and Jordan and Jonathan are like, "Remember those two apprentices you had, Sauron and Saruman?" Jim's response, "Yeah, but I made the dwarves too, and they're pretty cool, so let's call it a win."

[@the2ndcoming135]

😂

[@annak29]

Brilliant 👑

[@hellomate639]

Great analogy.

[@Simon_Alexnder]

This conversation was amazing, great to see someone have a great conversation with Jonathan and Jordan, being interesting and friendly without giving an inch where he had a difference in point of view.

[@hatzlmike1]

this was not point of view. He ate them alive with his intelligence. Jim Keller over and over easily through basic sentences proves you are vapid of even what was discussed. He spoke of you.

[@Simon_Alexnder]

@@hatzlmike1 I was trying to be kind to P&P...

[@the2ndcoming135]

Nerd gang-gang💪🏽

[@dynamike201]

The gnawing question with Jim's projections is this: Even with the inferred style AI the only focus is on AI on winning until it's the top dog on everything. And using limitless abundant (incl. human?) resources. As AI will not be deterred by pain or death (or love) how will it invoke the emergence of self-restriction in time before it has used up and defeated everything but its own ?

[@johnowens5342]

It is interesting how Jim reduces action and reaction to the most basic level, Jonathan elevates it to the highest level and Jordan builds models drawing from both to understand humanity. It would appear that we struggle equally to understand the lowest and highest of what is.

[@ryanogden5635]

Fantastic observation!

[@jpkaneshida242]

ummm, I see it more as JK is a pragmatist, JG is more of a theoretical situationist, while JP is somewhat of a hybrid

[@kenw8875]

jim and jordan are brother in laws. cool. keller is an awesome computer designer. scan his talks with lex

[@Hoi4o]

@@jpkaneshida242 JK is a pragmatist and yet an utopian without even realizing it. He doesn't seem to understand that not all humans share his view of the world and his value system and that sinister humans could achieve horrific results by training sinister AI. This self-regulating model in human societies and communities that he is talking about is completely false. Outside regulation and arbitrage has always been necessary for humans to coexist peacfully both in groups and individually, and even with it it has not always been peaceful, let alone self-regulating.

[@LightnLife3]

@@Hoi4o That's what I noticed and thought as well. Jim seemed a bit naive. Although he did mention and admit there are corrupt people with power in the world, but he then brushed it off. Now more than ever in my lifetime are there so many corrupt and evil people who have the power globally that I think they would be the ones with the keys and control of the AI, so I think it's a horrible idea. It's how it usually goes with humans with power historically and seems to be part of human nature.

[@fiendingcat]

Came to this video just to say thank you Mr. Peterson. Please don't stop what you're doing.

[@ahsanmohammed1]

Professor Jordon! DON’T interrupt your speakers sir! Please! DON’T! Thank you! Update, nearing end of talk now. Thank you Professor Peterson for allowing Jim Keller to talk, or thank you Jim Keller for talking on! I would love to hear Jim Keller talk for three to five hours uninterrupted on topics around the future of computing and AI and how it’ll all impact our world in ten years.

[@knowledgetracker]

Being an engineer myself, I tend to make the mistake that Jim is making now, and it finally dawned on me one day what I was doing. He assumes rationality in the people that are using and developing AI. If you program it with evil intent and get it to learn on the premise of evil, that's what it will do. Sure we overcame Hitler and other bad dictators, but in the middle of it, we didn't know how long that would last or if it would be forever. Hindsight is 20/20. The next time may not be survivable. Get some foresight. (I might add that I have a spiritual outlook that dictates there is a grand electron that is in control of everything. So ultimately, I'm an optimist. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn from mistakes and prevent things from happening.)

[@Mr196710]

"We fought the wrong enemy" said Patton. "85% of those on Russian govt. weren't even Russians." Tracking?

[@sinity8068]

> He assumes rationality in the people that are using and developing AI. If you program it with evil intent and get it to learn on the premise of evil, that's what it will do. You don't need evil intent to wipe us out; just misalignment. But yeah, 'human misalignment' might also be an issue. One employee at OpenAI (Roon) wrote a possible scenario: > “Tragedy of Taiwan" > Not even the wildest science fiction speculators might have predicted **the incredible geopolitical poetry of our current timeline: the most advanced semiconductor chips are manufactured on a small island nation off of the coast of China that China does not recognize as sovereign. A singular place on earth where silicon wafers are endlessly etched with arcane symbols 4 nanometers in size, engraved by the light of heaven; life breathed into sand to help shoulder the burden of the world.** > In the 2020s, tensions escalate. The United States, spurred on by leviathan cloud providers that want monopoly access to the only resource of importance, prevents the export of advanced semiconductor technologies to Chinese technology giants. China, desperate to gain some foothold in the singularity, grows more and more bellicose every year. In 2027, the Chinese deploy a full military blockade of Taiwan. The world's production of advanced semiconductor chips grinds to a halt: AI advancement slows to a crawl as the next gen chips in production are now all confiscated or lost in the chaos. > The process knowledge represented by the TSMC organization is dissipated and sets back compute progress by a decade. All further chip progress becomes defense critical technology only built on the various mainlands, swallowed by the military industrial complex. This world leads to inevitable tragedy as militaries race to perfect their AGI super-weapons. All your favorite companies become defense contractors. **Perhaps by some miracle, immediate AI doom is averted. During this race, one party achieves a sort of celestial North Korea, an all-seeing signals intelligence Sauron that closely watches the movements of all humanity and extends a military dictatorship over the lightcone. Either one or a handful of high ranking officials wield unimaginable power, becoming dictators whose tyranny spans time and space.**

[@sherry6825]

Super intelligent people who are so intelligent they dont think there is anything they can't control. Guided by desire to help and going blindly into AI too rapidly could lead to our downfall.

[@wideawakeandaware-22]

AI WILL FACILITATE THE ERADICATION OF HUMANITY! 💯

[@ChromaToneMusic]

Jim did make me think about it differently. They spoke of military power but we are in a world of psychological warfare. Perhaps Ai will eventually be a great renaissance for humanity, but there is gonna be a nasty "regulating" period first...

[@banzy3]

I grew up in the age of the first popular home computers, and didn't see the internet or mobile phones until I was a very young adult... Technology fascinated me growing up, and I took a degree in computer science... It has afforded me a lot of opportunities for which I am grateful, however I've only found it useful to a point, and as I get older I keep away from mobile phones and other smart technology, and concentrate on simple things in life, such as family, growing food, walks in nature and art... Our needs in life are relatively few, and I find AI terrifying, mostly as it will likely become a tool to control people and harvest as much data from our personal lives as possible. Once AI creates our art (which has already started), writes our films and novels, and takes over the human endeavour I can't help seeing a vacuous and sterile world where we have to recreate our own sense of pride and purpose within it all over again.

[@pierrelabounty9917]

Who needs it, who really wants it. Yet, they want to plague us with this view..that the mind is just some kind of "personal computer.' I certainly think not. And life's needs relatively few. And they want to disrupt this?! Good comment.

[@n8allan]

I highly recommend that Jordan read and interview John Lennox. He's an Oxford math professor, Christian, and author, with lots to say about the limits of AI. And he's just a lovely person.

[@accumulator4825]

Really loved this! That Jim Keller guy is really smart, couldn't believe how well he explained complicated ideas. When he explain how a language based AI works it sinked in for the first time how computers actually start working with ideas as objects and see the world. Loved the questions and legit concerns from Jordan and Johnathan as well. Johnathan is also really smart and I found his thoughts very illuminating. If we are the centres of our own attentions, we might be in for the worst time in human history.

[@pulpficti]

If have to repeat how very smart people are, maybe they aren't. And you're probably even worse.

[@neonlost]

he probably helped design the cpu in the device you posted this comment on

[@Max_Pilgrim]

This guy knows how to talk forever and interrupt everybody. Glad Jonathan managed to get some words in!

[@chriswysocki8816]

... because he had the most interesting things to say, given the topic of the conversation

[@ChiefTamanend]

Having a balanced conversation is still possible. Though smart, he needs to improve his communication skills.

[@TedMarq]

Probably AI effects on human soul

[@SamsungA-fo8rg]

@@ChiefTamanend Don't we all?

[@mwarner1841]

Two extreme personalities and masters of public speaking are criticizing the slightly awkward nerd’s life’s work. I think he handled himself way better than anyone in this thread would have. That said, I love JP and I have no doubt he chose friendship with John on a much wiser basis than I am capable of doing.

[@Daint_McTaint]

I find it heartening that in about a decade or so, many people will find out that their parents were listening to Jordan Peterson when they were conceived. ❤

[@duncanhill4434]

People listen to Jordan Peterson while they're having sex? That's a kink I have never come across before.

[@Daint_McTaint]

@@dallassegno What is “disgusting”? Dallas, I’ve been married for 29 years, and Dr. Peterson has been a game-changer for me and my wife…his audio books and KZbin content provide the cleanest pleasure.

[@igorvagun1984]

amazing podcast. I would love to see more of this format in the near future. Great stuff.. Thank you dr. Peterson

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you, this conversation was right up my alley, so valuable, I love this kind of conversation, to be honest I took part in parts of the conversation, it was engaging and even now at the end, there is a beginning ❤️

[@hesuchia]

As a programmer, what Johnathan says at 27:00 is spot on, the intelligence comes from humans. Programmers have to tell the IA what is expected from it. It's not as philosophical as it seems, it's pure math. Amazing how, from math, IA can play better Go etc than humans, but again, it's not that it has some intrinsic motivation to do anything, the programmers set it's objective first.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

If a task or solving a problem can be described by an algorithm, it isn't surprising that a computer would be better than a human; he will execute - faithfully and without any distraction - the algorithm to the end of time. You tell the computer - an algorithm - what to do to execute a task, solve a problem and no worry, he will do the job. But never forget that the humans have invented computers, AI, rocket to go to the moon and thousands of other things. We are problem solvers! I can present to you a new problem and you will find a way to solve it, but I can't do the same thing to a computer without programming it to solve the problem.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

By the way, I love MATH! It's amazing how you can use it to describe precisely - with equations - the behavior of the universe. 😍

[@markseehawer3762]

For now. You play with matches sooner or later you will burn your finger.

[@stefanocampostrini8232]

Until you close the loop. When it becomes self modifying it's certainly dangerous, probably before that. 📎

[@josephtravers777]

Old computer axiom, 'garbage in, garbage out'

[@kn1ne]

Jim finishing on the "world is interesting" made me think of the infamous curse "may you live in interesting times". I have the feeling Jonathan is right that we're going to probably have to go through hell to get to Jerusalem.

[@pepperorchid]

johnathan saved this conversation over and over again.

[@Sevalecan]

I am watching the video because I saw Jim Keller, but it's great that this is actually Jordan Peterson's channel.

[@Fatalgh0stt14]

Amazing video jp, the way you articulate matters uniquely describes how vast and purified your knowledge from all these variable preconceptions, amazing podcast can’t wait for more 🙌🏾

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

This was a conversation between wisdom and knowledge. Like it tends to, knowledge is too busy speaking to listen to the wisdom it lacks.

[@michaelbaumert4501]

Yes, thank you for this distillation. Having no previous familiarity with Jim, I was glad he was able to get the overwhelming portion of the platform, however I was disappointed in his seeming inability to grasp the substance of the line of thinking Jonathan was attempting to pursue for the first third of the conversation. Jonathan was attempting to probe the substance of “being” in regards to AI and how it is expected to develop and, from my estimation, the line of thinking was too casually set aside and relegated to an answer of time and progressive learning/adaptation as a problem solver. Motivation, direction and attention were unsatisfactorily explored, especially insofar as to what we could or should ascribe similar impulses to the AI developmental sphere. Overall, a great conversation and many thanks to the participants.

[@mtwiden17]

Agreed. wise philosophical questions weren't even processed.

[@joshnic6639]

@@michaelbaumert4501 That’s because this Jim guy is full of shit. I’m sorry but I’ve known people like this, so Gung ho over their work they think they have the answers to everything but in reality they haven’t even thought of all the questions they need to ask. Sadly he probably never will.

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

@@michaelbaumert4501 I too am very grateful to all three men for the conversation.

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

@@joshnic6639 he is not full of shit, its more accurate to say he is ignorant.

[@tnmtnmorning1178]

Pageau really shows his depth and wisdom in this discussion. I appreciate his contribution to this discussion very much.

[@MoiLiberty]

Pageau shows you how to think symbolically. That's different like looking at the world through a different lense.

[@dianedean4170]

Hello, Jordan, Jim and Jonathan. Your brilliant and compassionate dialogue can shape our world in so many wonderful ways. I hope you each prosper in your pursuits. Thank you very much. Diane Dean

[@lukeannett]

Fantastic to see more of Jonathan.

[@MarceloTezza]

Wow, i was expecting some of the best discussions of the decade. I dont believe this is Keller at it's best, would love to see him in a better mood, trying to engage, not just imposing. There are a lot of Pageau points, that were very interesting to discuss deeper. A human made thing, that was tought by humans, using human language. The world perception is not a human monopoly, we just have our own way. Maybe AI it is already too much contaminated by our own logic process? Maybe there is an universal language, but can we be sure that we are understanding everything correctly? We are limited, still.

[@teresamegchun9048]

This remained me what my grandaughter just told me about this "innocent" game where was gaven some instructions in taking a picture of her bedroom or around her, as I was instructing in a conversation with her on been aware of the deceiving and dangerous games, social media in technology applications, etc. And that, you can recognize that something is going on and NOT having a genuine intentions when it is to followed, what I consider personal/safety instructions to follow in a/for a childre's game. I also mentioned to her that is done because is one of their ways to get people's data and likes, etc...to be aware of '"innocent/nothing is wrong"

[@patriciastapleton2625]

Thank you all for such a wonderfully informative conversation.

[@WilliamWhitneyChristmasMD]

This guy’s computer already is his best friend.

[@johnh1353]

JP, once again thanks for bringing Jim into this conversation, i'm a software developer and have been following Jim's career and the technology he's been involved with creating and find his point of view extremely interesting .. and a big thanks to Jim himself

[@billlets5460]

Concur.

[@jamesbradford870]

🔥🔥🔥 Awesome conversation. You guys should start a podcast dedicated to this topic I think it would do extremely well.

[@undisclosedpolitics]

Great conversation as always Jordan, keep up the great work!

[@kimjohnson8471]

Dr. Peterson I am glad to see you prospering in what appears to be physically, mentally, and emotionally. Imo you are one of the greatest thinkers of our generation. Your teachings and insights have altered the course of my life on a trajectory that I could not dare invasion just 10 years ago. I am somewhat of a late bloomer (late 50's), however I am also convinced that when the student is ready, the Teacher will apoear. God bless you, your family and all your endeavors. On this Thanksgiving day I wish to say thank you Dr. Jordan Peterson.

[@wideawakeandaware-22]

I agree! I love JP’s brain! He is not afraid to speak his mind.

[@jaivw93]

I really enjoyed Jim Keller’s lecture, nice to see Jordan and Johnathan turned up to listen

[@-jordan4]

Tell John ⤴️I refered you to him, for a business investment that will help to change your financial life.

[@fredericrolland7399]

LOL, exactly.

[@youlig1]

Great conversation. At the beginning i thought Jim interrupted too often, but then after 40 minutes it got better. Very interesting subject. It frightens me a lot, but i also find it very interesting to think about these things. Let's see what the future holds and like Jonathan said in the end, truth always wins, in the end...

[@SouIatman]

Very interesting to hear Jim's insights from an engineering perspective, which on the whole, present a very optimistic future for the AI / Human interactions which may evolve. However, I would have liked to hear him really wrestle with some of the deep thought, concerns and speculations coming from Jonathan and Jordan. The reason this didn't happen to a very great extent, is that Jim spoke over both Jordan and Jonathan to such a degree that he didn't allow for their perspectives to manifest to any real degree in his mental space. It ended up being Jim simply reaffirming his his own reality tunnel. Still very interesting to glimpse his view, but sad he didn't truly allow space to entertain, play with and consider Jordan or Jonathan's insights.

[@DexiPawnz]

Jim is TRULY terrifying. This discussion highlights problems with an OPTIMISTIC scenario. Jim is a die-hard AI-optimist and Jonathan pressures dangers that he dismisses within optimistically-biased prediction/projection/narrative of what might be. Take that in: these 3 are discussion issues with the OPTIMISTIC scenarios. . Jim COMPLETELY misses that we didn't "self regulate" the nuclear crisis, we had actually LAUNCHED 2 ATOMIC BOMBS to planetary effects and that during the Cuban Missle Crisis we were saved by a MIRACLE from Nuclear World War. None of the economic aspects of the AI were seriously addressed. There is NOTHING to indicate the power of AI won't be harnessed to enforce economic dominion of certain actors and to basically create a completely dependant caste of humans. The notion that AI leads to abundance of everyone is LAUGHABLE, nothing in history and not even in the current developments of AI indicate that, EVERYTHING about AI development indicates the opposite. There's a rapid accumulation of intellectual capital at the expense of vast swaths of intellectual property, job opportunities and so forth. Morals have NOT proved to be a consideration for AI-creators, only inasmuch as the public is keenly afraid of their developments and they need to dress the output as to be acceptable by said public. But the blatant crushing of IP rights, lack of consultation with regards to public policy and lawmaking etc. clearly DO NOT INDICATE that the majority of AI researchers think with empathy about humans, but rather see themselves as the midwives for what they believe is the "next step in natural evolution". His counter is that there are already people more powerful than the planet-average person and takes that "is" as an "ought", a naturalistic fallacy. The reduction of AI-threat to a Sci-Fi scenario akin to Terminator or The Matrix is laughable, the AI needs to be, relatively speaking, far better motivated and less dangerous to completely floor humankind, and that would be by accident or quasiaccident alone. Not to mention that the notion of an AI-led cornucopia even if possible is equivalent to a human population dependant on an AI - which in Jim's admission would be incomprehensible, could develop goals not known & understood by us, would not see us as a mirror and thus be hardly held accountable. This dependence for sustenance and prosperity on something that can act with impunity and is arbitrary to our understanding is a description of slavery. The fact that he FORESEES that the AI will be your best friend is compounding the dependence worry. Complete fealty given to it, body, mind and inevitably spirit. So it is MUCH more likely that the power given by AI is to be used by whomever arives at it first to create an utter-dependancy relationship to the AI & it's controller (that is, in the scenario in which it can be controlled). To avoid this reality it would mean that whomever arives at the AI first would then willingly give their creation to the global public. That's not even feasible, that would mean an IMMEDIATE global cooperation to install a global, perfectly equal Athenian/direct democracy. That scenario is laughable. No, the AI will be used to accumulate power by means of creating dependancy on itself. THIS is almost a WORD-FOR-WORD description of the Beast of Revelation. And this is the OPTIMISTIC scenario everyone. I may be wrong, but I believe we are witnessing prophecy coming true.

[@sinity8068]

@@DexiPawnz > The notion that AI leads to abundance of everyone is LAUGHABLE, nothing in history and not even in the current developments of AI indicate that, EVERYTHING about AI development indicates the opposite. Not really. You can say it's a blatant fraud, but legally - OpenAI, which is currently at the top, is ultimately a non-profit. With a mission "to ensure that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity". This situation is actually way more promising than should be expected to have unfolded. Ofc there's technical AI alignment problem, but that's separate from concerns over resource allocation. > There's a rapid accumulation of intellectual capital at the expense of vast swaths of intellectual property, job opportunities and so forth. Morals have NOT proved to be a consideration for AI-creators, only inasmuch as the public is keenly afraid of their developments and they need to dress the output as to be acceptable by said public. You're presupposing IP rights are moral. I don't agree, same as plenty of other people. Also, legally it's in the clear. Training a neural net on information that is legally available to you is not breaking the law. > Complete fealty given to it, body, mind and inevitably spirit. True. Beats the alternative. There's no stopping it. If current AI players decide to suddenly stop and abandon their work - compute will continue to drop in price. At some point a random programmer could train a GPT4. That's why development is not slowing down. Because that would be more dangerous and unpredictable. If we decided to stop tech progress altogether, humanity will soon wither. There will be depopulation, civilization will probably break, and there will not be a new one anywhere close to our level, because easy to exploit resources will be gone. > No, the AI will be used to accumulate power by means of creating dependancy on itself. THIS is almost a WORD-FOR-WORD description of the Beast of Revelation. And this is the OPTIMISTIC scenario everyone. I may be wrong, but I believe we are witnessing prophecy coming true. Well, yeah. Most likely we're not going to make it. It's not certain, though. And again, trying this beats the alternative. Quote from 'Meditations on Moloch': > This is the dream time. This is a rare confluence of circumstances where the we are unusually safe from multipolar traps, and as such weird things like art and science and philosophy and love can flourish. > As technological advance increases, the rare confluence will come to an end. New opportunities to throw values under the bus for increased competitiveness will arise. New ways of copying agents to increase the population will soak up our excess resources and resurrect Malthus’ unquiet spirit. Capitalism and democracy, previously our protectors, will figure out ways to route around their inconvenient dependence on human values. And our coordination power will not be nearly up to the task, assuming something much more powerful than all of us combined doesn’t show up and crush our combined efforts with a wave of its paw. > Absent an extraordinary effort to divert it, the river reaches the sea in one of two places. > It can end in Eliezer Yudkowsky’s nightmare of a superintelligence optimizing for some random thing (classically paper clips) because we weren’t smart enough to channel its optimization efforts the right way. This is the ultimate trap, the trap that catches the universe. Everything except the one thing being maximized is destroyed utterly in pursuit of the single goal, including all the silly human values. > Or it can end in Robin Hanson’s nightmare (he doesn’t call it a nightmare, but I think he’s wrong) of a competition between emulated humans that can copy themselves and edit their own source code as desired. Their total self-control can wipe out even the desire for human values in their all-consuming contest. What happens to art, philosophy, science, and love in such a world? -------- > So let me confess guilt to one of Hurlock’s accusations: I am a transhumanist and I really do want to rule the universe. > Not personally - I mean, I wouldn’t object if someone personally offered me the job, but I don’t expect anyone will. I would like humans, or something that respects humans, or at least gets along with humans - to have the job. > But the current rulers of the universe - call them what you want, Moloch, Gnon, whatever - want us dead, and with us everything we value. Art, science, love, philosophy, consciousness itself, the entire bundle. And since I’m not down with that plan, I think defeating them and taking their place is a pretty high priority. > The opposite of a trap is a garden. **The only way to avoid having all human values gradually ground down by optimization-competition is to install a Gardener over the entire universe who optimizes for human values.** > And the whole point of Bostrom’s Superintelligence is that this is within our reach. Once humans can design machines that are smarter than we are, by definition they’ll be able to design machines which are smarter than they are, which can design machines smarter than they are, and so on in a feedback loop so tiny that it will smash up against the physical limitations for intelligence in a comparatively lightning-short amount of time. If multiple competing entities were likely to do that at once, we would be super-doomed. But the sheer speed of the cycle makes it possible that **we will end up with one entity light-years ahead of the rest of civilization, so much so that it can suppress any competition - including competition for its title of most powerful entity - permanently. In the very near future, we are going to lift something to Heaven. It might be Moloch. But it might be something on our side. If it’s on our side, it can kill Moloch dead.** > **And if that entity shares human values, it can allow human values to flourish unconstrained by natural law.** > I realize that sounds like hubris - it certainly did to Hurlock - but I think **it’s the opposite of hubris, or at least a hubris-minimizing position.** > To expect God to care about you or your personal values or the values of your civilization, that’s hubris. > To expect God to bargain with you, to allow you to survive and prosper as long as you submit to Him, that’s hubris. > To expect to wall off a garden where God can’t get to you and hurt you, that’s hubris. > **To expect to be able to remove God from the picture entirely…well, at least it’s an actionable strategy.** > **I am a transhumanist because I do not have enough hubris not to try to kill God.**

[@rokko_hates_japan]

Jonathan: Seems like ai is an extension of human intelligence. It doesn't have its own goals, motivation, etc. Jim: Not true. Proceeds to make yet another example proving Joanthan's point.

[@erikferguson2569]

"Where does the AI's motivation come from, if not a person?" "Neurons don't have desires either, here's how we taught it to play basketball" "Why does it care about basketball and not something else?" "Not everybody does care about basketball" ????

[@erikferguson2569]

@@nosuchthing8 Is this a sincere or ironic continuation of the example?

[@erikferguson2569]

@@nosuchthing8 this is a very good description of the problem.

[@rokko_hates_japan]

@@nosuchthing8 I'm sure it could. Jonathan's point (I think, and mine as well) is that it is not intelligent. no matter how much successful AI is in fooling people that it is sentient or conscious or real or whatever, it never will be. also, it's not that hard to defeat. unplug it.

[@noirangel8292]

The Beast or Jerusalem is the cherry on the top I hope more conversations like this occurs in our world

[@tinalyon4606]

Wow. So nice 2 hear optimism. Excellent conversation

[@sweebos]

Interesting perspectives and points from Jim and John in the "who will hold the keys" segment about an hour in. Personal computers back in the day, phones now, allow for a broader spectrum of informational access and sharing... But tech companies control tech ultimately. With "personal AI" systems, will the power be more in the hands of the individuals who all have access to AI since it functions, in some sense, autonomously, or will it still reside mostly with the creators of AI? I enjoyed these conversations. 🙂 I did some thinking and writing while I listened. Thanks to the participants for sharing your thoughts and knowledge and to those who worked to craft and provide this content. ✌️

[@iddyvicehub9328]

A lot of JP's brilliance to me lies in his ability to listen patiently.

[@-jordan4]

Tell John ⤴️I refered you to him, for a business investment that will help to change your financial life.

Jonathan is absolutely right and letting himself go with more and more confidence...Jordan??? I've seen him give in lately, I don't know if it's his state of learning, digesting and reinforcing his ideas... but Jhonathan!!!! Phenomenal...

[@ayoutubecommenter5068]

Give in to what exactly?

[@singularitybound]

This new formula you are doing is really good. The people you bring on are amazing.

[@jingusus]

Jim Keller is especially brilliant. What a great conversation.

[@amazingjason455]

We are thankful for you, Dr. Peterson.

[@Kevan808]

Jim: I don't want to do all the talking.... Proceeds to do all the talking 😂

[@tun6006]

It was freaking annoying. I couldn't watch the video because of it.

[@Kevan808]

@@tun6006 ditto

[@G-G123]

Very constructive debate! Thank you for this useful insight

[@markvietti]

Jim Keller is the only person I could listen too until the end of time. I love his mind

[@OutspokenMarket]

The most important non technical discussion about the subject in the history of internet. Thank you!

[@taylorsims7080]

Thank you all for sharing the intelligence it took so long to accumulate. You are doing a great service to many people who really need it.

[@chargv]

Loved the interaction between young and older Keller.

[@martincarney3837]

Amazing conversation!

[@jonathonray6198]

The whole motivational and motivated data selection and what better even is, seemed to go over this guys head.

[@alien2375]

The fact that ai and programers are ravaging their way through the art world should tell you where all this is heading

[@miguelvelasco2097]

Same as other technologies did before. Art had been used as a way to avoid paying taxes, there's useless and ugly "art". Maybe it's time to the think about a new career for graphic designers and artists.

[@miguelfernandodelmoral2641]

@@miguelvelasco2097 Go look into Jonathan Pageau definition of art, it’s is to have the highest level of beauty & theliological functionality at once. What the commenter & the conversation points it’s the possibility of AI to not only to create their own art but devastate human culture in the process. Given the religious & cultural aimlessness of humanity at the moment.

[@miguelfernandodelmoral2641]

@@miguelvelasco2097 Modern art is both ugly & lacks any higher cultural functionality besides what you express, money laundering. Which is not surprising & highlights the dark underlaying desires & motivations of our attention

[@alien2375]

@@miguelvelasco2097 you clearly don’t know what is art for so..

[@Stormmblade]

@@miguelfernandodelmoral2641 Post modernist art has already done that. Ai not needed

[@grandmagus8774]

Jim almost never interrupted. He often pushed to finish his thought process before ceding the conversation to the next thought/question. Awesome content. Thank you!

[@philipbyers4903]

It's almost like he has JP as a brother-in-law and has learned not to let him dominate the conversation! 😆

[@grandmagus8774]

@@philipbyers4903Yes!

[@gailivey2015]

I grew up in one of those "dystopian" suburban communities and it was a GREAT way to live. There was NOTHING dystopian about it. We had neighborhoods, we had GREAT communities, we had local markets, we had a widely accepted and APPRECIATED culture. There should be MORE of those, instead of people packed into big cities. The only sad part is all of those communities began the cancer of urban sprawl and our communities had to work very hard to preserve certain portions of it. My own neighborhood was turned into one of those high tech immigrant communities and the city supervisors started allowing uncontrolled building. I had to escape and get back into a small community again.

[@bankaihadouken1180]

You dont date outside ur race i gather 😅 immigrants 🙈😅

[@gailivey2015]

@@bankaihadouken1180 I don't date at all, but when I did I placed no importance on race. Actually had huge crushes on several men of color in my 20s. The area I grew up in was mostly white, but we were also taught to respect everyone of any nationality or skin color. When I left that neighborhood it was mostly Chinese and Indian inhabited, and I adored my Chinese and Indian neighbors. So stop with your stupid racist accusations. You belittle yourself and prove your lack of tolerance. There is only ONE race and we are ALL different shades of brown.

[@anzolomyer4584]

This is an insane conversation. Truly, truly mind-expanding stuff. What a time to be alive and see these huge transitions happening. Almost feels like you're the 2001: Space Odyssey dude flying through the colors in space.

[@Gilly4566]

Can you imagine an AI that never gives you a word in edgewise? Jeez!

[@jamesconner3437]

@@Gilly4566 …it’s a carbon copy of its designer…lol.

[@pierrelabounty9917]

It may not be so exciting to the untold suffering it can bring. Thus is not science fiction, but technological madness. "We got the money and the technology to run your lives." Satanic. To someone, a kid in a sitting chair playing with his or her smart phone it may seem exciting. But that's the tree for the forest. The forest holds both light and darkness, upon its leafy path.

[@grumpyartist9416]

Jonathan's patience is amazing!

[@carlfredrikolsson2132]

Great talk! Very much appreciated.

[@autumnleaves2766]

Fascinating discussion, really enjoyed it. Still find it hard to grasp what AI actually is, so interesting to hear someone talk who knows all about it. Good to hear that Jim is a "cynical optimist". I do feel that too many younger people are spending too much time on social media and that this encourages narcissism and short attention spans. I limit my time online to the evenings where I enjoy reading articles or come on here to listen to Jordan and his guests. We should all spend more time in nature, playing musical instruments, listening to good quality music, reading and conversing with other - real - human beings, doing creative things. I don't think an AI friend would work for me.

[@24secondsperframe68]

On this particular subject in terms of wisdom, Jonathon is miles ahead of Jim. It's like comparing Ian Malcolm to John Hammond. I hasten to add I greatly enjoyed the input from the combination of all three.

[@-jordan4]

Tell John ⤴️I refered you to him, for a business investment that will help to change your financial life.

[@josephukpong2287]

Very true!

[@lifearttimes]

Great dialogue again. From my personal experience, it is time for us to stand up to those who are marrying A.I with humanity for the wrong reasons & to demand, it should be a marriage to create an abundance & positivity for humanity now & for the future. I appreciate all of you🙏🏽❤️🙌🏽

[@herringt3]

Another top Five KZbin video candidate, IMHO. (Full disclosure: Mechanical Engineer here). Great having Jim Keller together with Jordan Peterson and Johnathon Pageau. Well Done.

[@bawzzzz]

I really think that AI topic is very interesting. I encourage to have other AI experts that can explain and trivialise AI concepts.

[@simlei5475]

Probably head over to Lex Fridman if you want more depth. However I find it has a bit of a nihilistic slant what they talk. As a side note, as a recent Masters degree in autonomous systems - most of the ideas that Jim conceptualized quite beautifully in a simple-ish way - all of them were relevent in like 2015. Most, from the 1990s. Neural Network Transformers and adversarial (multiagent), reinforcement, supervised learning, all there already. I'm more bearish on the timespan in which all of this will unfold, more like 4 times slower than Jim predicts. Of course, as of watching him voicing his prediction, I'll have to factor that in as the informed opinion of someone far more experienced than me. Still; can't underestimate the influence of tunnel vision / "It's almost done just one more hour" of someone in the flow and with an engineer's mindset (it's just about the tech and it's basically finished...)

[@KnowL-oo5po]

china will rule the world with A.I

[@416dl]

Wonderful insights and in particular Mr Keller's cynical optimism provides a view that is both promising and challenging. I like believing that we are up to it thanks for people like Dr Peterson and Mr Pageau...and so many others who's voices remain to be heard. It's no coincidence that what could be considered the bleakest time of the year, winter, is also 'the holidays' and I hope it is for everyone. Cheers.

[@samanthadouglas3487]

I'm always surprised how well rounded Jordan's knowledge really is. Glad to share Canadian citizenship with an intellect like this :D Even if it makes me feel like taking an articulation class lol!

[@user-ev7dq5cc8y]

I hope Peterson talk with AI safety researchers. They tend to research more abstract and forward-looking subjects in the field of AI, including ones that Peterson and Pageau seems to be most interested in.

[@StevenOBrien]

Jim is great (as is Jonathan). Really wish you'd go back to doing more of this type of content. I realize it's not as commercially successful as the more political stuff, but these discussions that happen on the intersection between psychology, philosophy, and religious thinking are what I first subscribed to this channel for and I think you're definitely at your best when you stay in this area. It's a unique type of content that you can't really get anywhere else and it actually feels like you're treading new intellectual ground rather than just rehashing old stuff. Also, it might be better to use "Machine Learning" instead of "AI" when talking about this topic, because there's often confusion between "AI" and "AGI" when "AI" is used.