Exploring chinese masculinity (and china's ban on effeminate men)

[@stiflers_mom]

the idea of government officials getting together and discussing what kinda men should be found hot is so funny to me

[@healingpoisonbreak9984]

Fr, it is kinda sus😂😂

[@caob1876]

it's more about the kind of men that are promoted and therefore influence the young men. Gotta be careful the male role models your society promotes. Younger men are watching.

[@marvin2678]

they have good reason tho

[@stiflers_mom]

@marvin2678 they just dont tho

[@stiflers_mom]

@caob1876 I'd be more worried about the hyper masculine right wing guys than idols w long hair tbf

[@itried8968]

The association of femininity with weakness is something that will forever make me sad as a woman.

[@GayRainbowPig]

Stay sad 💪💪

[@BigBoss-sm9xj]

As a guy, I believe that masculinity is a strength for a man and femininity is a strength for a woman. But when one sex overwhelming adopts traits from the opposite sex then that is a weakness. Not because feminine traits are weaker than masculine ones or masculine traits stronger than feminine ones. But because then a man can't fulfill his required roles and a women hers. I would never consider a woman who's feminine as weak because the role she fulfill is just as important as the role that I fulfill as a man. Both are required for a culture to function

[@Someone-gx2sb]

@@BigBoss-sm9xj The question would be, why exactly adopting traits of a different sex is considered or weakness or rather, how exactly such behaviour would be detrimental for a culture and/or society. Personalities will, simply put, always show a certain mix of culturally masculine and feminine traits, hiding and surpressing those traits is in all cases an effort to make and against... well, the notions of freedom and living up to your potential. As such, there must be very good reasons to see "adopting" or reveiling traits of one's personality that are normally considered to be from another sex to be a sign of weakness.

[@LightPink]

Pregnancies and physical weakness are the defining characteristics of women (imo)

[@elizegood7722]

It shouldn’t make you sad, unless it’s for them because of their ignorance! However, a lot of men and women with sense/knowledge knows that femininity isn’t inherently “weak”. Just like masculinity isn’t inherently “strong”, there are several factors before you get to that end result

[@lambofunny]

i think its a huge misconception that these pretty boys have no muscles. A lot of them work out in the gym and keep in shape, they just dont take off their shirts as often as the men do in the west

[@DemonFox369]

If not shown, people think it doesn’t exist.

[@jasperzanovich2504]

The issue is that a lot of them are prettier than most girls. That doesn't exactly project the strength China wants.

[@enrater123]

Maybe they have a some muscles but definitely not that much, they're incredibly thin, it's not about "taking off your shirt", if you're strong enough it shows through

[@DemonFox369]

@@enrater123 Huge difference in muscular at 80kg and muscular at 60kg

[@maikelbarnett8162]

Asian people have way more difficulties to develop muscle compare to any other western country, it is not because they don’t take their shirt off is because we know that you have difficulties developing big muscles and what you call a “muscle asian man” is still consider skinny or super slim

[@carlcarlington7317]

I honestly think it’s super funny how often ancient philosophers from different cultures wrote about how “actually people who just so happen to be like me are super cool and you should totally let them run society/ kiss them”

[@sheepysnowtato824]

Literally!

[@Drehirth]

I never thought of it that way, but it's so true XD

[@WayfaringMerchant]

Bro has never read a piece of ancient philosophy

[@motti6569]

@@WayfaringMerchant Bruh read the Republic and tell me she isn't right - it absolutely rings true. I could totally imagine Diogenes just embracing it too

[@WayfaringMerchant]

@@motti6569 that she is right about what? I am reading the republic rn and read a some of the cynic(the philosophy Diogenes was a part of) and stoic philosophies.

[@EmptycatArt]

crazy she came out of nowhere and made an absolutely banger video, great to see there's gonna be more in the future

[@tommysiharath6988]

Videos about China get really high views cause not many people from the inside talk about it and there aren't many people from the outside who understand China. Plus, gotta think about instagram/tik tok followers of hers coming on over here. Other than that, she really presents things in a very objective and non-biased way. She's also pretty cute

[@thamzhixuanjanhci6872]

@@tommysiharath6988 what Instagram drop her @

[@keosan]

Ikr, off to a great start with these videos.

[@killerman19880385]

@@franklee2679 is this... a copy paste?

[@NeostormXLMAX]

@@tommysiharath6988 yeah very rarely you have some one make an evaluation from the inside, its always western journalists and people who have not lived in the country

[@thexenoist3493]

Wen-Wu dichotomy reminded me of the saying 'The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools'

[@azhariarif]

Which is why the Roman army can absolutely obliterate the entirety of Chinese military history, combine.

[@thexenoist3493]

@@azhariarif Calm down

[@HDZ274]

@@azhariarif Calm down

[@aungyethu6560]

@@azhariarif "its because they were more muscular and not girly" the CCP probably

[@thamutha]

​@@azhariarif The romans didn't do anything to china. All they ever did was send Emperor Marcus Aurelius 1 time to china and that's it the romans never stepped into china ever. China was a dangerous force back than and it still is. It is not easy to conquer china. They were experts in art, warfare and martial arts a combination of both which in my opinion is the perfect example of masculinity. A man that is artistic through beauty and is a bold warrior. Moves gracefuly like water but hits hard like a tsunami powerful enough to break through trees and brick walls.

[@andrewzhao444]

I disagree with characterizing chinese traditional masculinity as being primarily composed of wen (scholar) 文 and wu (millitary) 武。These are just two of the archetypes for (usually) men, and just the specific ones relating to government jobs. There are many more, equally influential, archetypes for men: the sage-hermit 隐士/monk 出家人, the traditional hero 英雄 and the Machiavellian antihero 枭雄, the robin hood esque wandering vigilante 侠客, and much more. These archetypes apply mostly to men, but they don't represent a general sense of "what it means to be a man". These are all very specific, "possible ways to be a man". There are more universal archetypes for men in chinese culture. These are the ones that google translates to some form of "man". I think they much better represent chinese ideals of masculinity (for all men instead of just an option for men): the macho man 汉子/莽夫, the good man 男子汉/大丈夫, and the gentleman 君子. The macho man is, well, macho, focused on physical strength and aggression, or at least a "protect whats mine" attitude. The good man is responsible, is honest, and holds onto their principles. The gentleman is educated, refined in taste, versed in art and music, etc etc. These run the gamut of what typical masculine ideals are in the west, they end up being pretty similar. Of course, there are chinese/east asian specific elements like adherence to Confucian social values: duty to parents, and respect for elders... which are implied in all three of these. I'll mention that these three universal masculine archetypes are deeply rooted in and native to chinese culture. Just to clear up any ideas that they are discredited because they are similar to western ideas and are somehow western influenced. The macho man 汉子 is present at least by 500 AD, as recorded in Chronicles of Northern Jin 《北齐书》。The good man 大丈夫 is present at least by 300 BC, as recorded in Mencius 《孟子》。The gentleman 君子 is the central ideal of Confucianism itself, it is present by at least 400 BC, as recorded in The Analects 《论语》。 But even the universal chinese archetypes for men are still idealized goals for men. What I think really gets at traditional chinese notions of masculinity (and femininity), as well as what I think you were getting at with wen 文 and wu 武, is instead the concept of yin 阴 and yang阳。 The version relevant to genders is yin(soft) 阴柔, and yang(hard) 阳刚。Yin and yang need no introduction. These two broad concepts, fundamental to chinese culture, supposedly encompass the two sides of everything, so of course are heavily used to interpret the male-female dichotomy. In other words, traditional chinese views on male and femaleness is very closely related to its philosophical views on yin and yang, their interplay. Yin characterizes femaleness, and yang maleness. But both exist in everyone (and everything). Men just lean more towards yang, and women more towards yin. Yang(hard) includes very stereotypically masculine traits such as aggression, strength, brittleness (as in unwilling to bend and rather shatter than relent). And yin(soft) includes very stereotypically feminine traits such as passivity, easy displaying of emotion, nurturing. So traditional chinese culture allows for more yin/feminine ways of being men like the wen scholar, as well as more yang/masculine ways of being men like the warrior wu. And just like how ultimately yin and yang need to work together to get the full picture of everything, in everyone there needs to be (a) balance between yin and yang. It doesn't need to be 50/50, but there needs to be a balance. This is why the ideal leaders in books are portrayed as being both learned and militarily capable. note 1: I want to elaborate on the sage hermit archetype. It is a good example of just how limited wen (scholar) 文 is as a representation of a side of masculinity。 The hermit archetype applies often to philosophers, poets, monks, and many scholars as well. It is characterized by an older person distant from the world, who is philosophical and reflective. There is a stark difference between this archetype and the wen portrayed in the video: both of them are in touch with their emotions, but wen expresses it outwardly and somewhat melodramatically, and the hermit calmly feels their emotions. This archetype is very famous and influence in east asian culture. Many of the most famous figures in east asian history are characterized as this. Zhugeliang诸葛亮/kongming孔明 was portrayed as a scholar/wen, but he was FIRST portrayed as a hermit, living in a secluded hut and watching the world quietly. And the shaolin warrior monks show how this archetype doesn't need to be physically weak either. The wise-old-master in martial arts movies, as well as eastern mystics and gurus are all stereotypes on this. If you go by the wen-wu dichotomy, you lose out on all of this. The hermit is not in-between wen and wu, it is a separate thing entirely, just like all the other archetypes I mentioned. note 2: The macho man 汉子 is at first a neutral/derogatory term for lower class men. This is recorded in "Notebook from the Old Scholar's Collection" 《老学庵笔记》。 The term eventually evolved into a neutral/positive meaning: a common man. I suspect the term originates from just meaning "han person", as this term was described to have started around a dynasty controlled by non-han people. This is just a guess though. textual evidence mentioned: The macho man 汉子 is recorded in a historical event at around 500 AD in "Chronicles of Northern Jin" 《北齐书》, scroll 23, paragraph 13 The origin of macho man 汉子 is traced back to 300 AD, as well as the specific instance at 500 AD, in a book written in around 1100 AD, "Notebook from the Old Scholar's Collection" 《老学庵笔记》, scroll 3, paragraph 3 The good man 大丈夫 is used in a book written in around 300 BC: "Mencius" 《孟子》, scroll 6 (Duke Weng of Teng Part Lower), paragraph 2 The gentleman 君子 is recorded as being said by Confucius at around 400 BC, as recorded in The Analects 《论语》, scroll 1, paragraph 1 (its literally the first sentence). 君子 is technically used as early as 1000 BC in the I Ching 《周易》, scroll 1, paragraph 1. But the word had a different meaning back then, mainly refering to princes. It was maybe coined by Confucius, or came into use closer to his time.

[@yoshilovesyoshi]

Damn bruh, I really respect the amount of effort you put into this comment. I hope she sees it, but it might be better to just email her directly for this kind of thing 🙃 Although as I type that, I realize she didn't put any dms or email options for people like you 😅

[@rubyy.7374]

This should be a mandatory reading to accompany this video. Thanks for going in depth on this!

[@CCLethe]

I too respect the effort, but I am not reading that. Can someone do a tldr

[@legendarychinaman3965]

I’m definitely a sage hermit

[@XFreeStyleZX]

@@CCLethe Get treated for ADHD, vtuber fan.

[@Niobesnuppa]

An interesting thing about the whole "western macho man" ideal is that it's actually far more recent than most people think. You only need to go back to the 1800's to see that the ideal was the opposite to what it is now, and if you go even further back to the 1700's, the masculine ideal was extremely feminine by modern standards. In most of Europe in the 1700's, muscular men were considered brutish, beards were viewed as uncivilised, and the ideal man was a thin, pale, clean-shaven one with soft features, a perfectly curled wig, a well put together outfit in pastel colours, and silk stockings that showed off how thin his calves were. In fact, more scholarly men were considered the ideal for quite some time due to class differences, with more muscular men typically being working class or peasant men who had to do hard physical labour all day.

[@Stockbrot_]

It's all the same. Masculinity is just power. Power comes in different forms like physical, mental or financial power but it's all the same at the end of the day. The clothing back in the day was supposed to show that they were rich and sophisticated. Both are attributes of power. There is no and never has been one masculine ideal. There are just different forms of power and ways to show them.

[@francisnopantses1108]

This ideal radiated out from France, which had a very cliff like social stratum. At the end of the 18th century, the French Revolution happened, upending French society forever. After that, clothing for men in the West changed dramatically. In the 20th century you see the rise of the "working class hero" and also the Western which has working class heros/anti heros. To be a working class physical laborer was seen as authentic and real and the wealthy were seen as parasitic and exploiters. Other observers have drawn a line between the Western and Wuxia, which also features working class protagonists.

[@polaroidghost]

This reminds me that 1920's depictions of masculine looks were often quite feminine, if you look at them by today's western standards

[@gulabjamun921]

​@@Stockbrot_I'd argue this has less to do with masculinity and more a class and cultural time aspect. rich people could do anything and it would shape society, so the people on top, (both women and men) would be considered the most elite of them all (the best of men and women) and the ideal people should strive for, in every way. the traits in the poorer, working class were considered less desirable, less feminine or masculine compared to their 'elite' counterparts. we should also consider the culture and time as well.

[@thirion1850]

This and other fun stories you can tell your friends. The western masculine ideal being "macho" goes as far back as ancient Greece, and is likely even far older than that. 1700's men valued matters of the military and "macho" just as much - take the justacorps for example, a coat that evolved directly out of military use. "Thin" calves were never in style, Henry the 8th may have been 200 years earlier, but set the standard going forward. Indeed the "macaroni" standards you describe (softness, excessive wigs, feminine act and garb) were not exactly a widely spread trend, and fell out of favor rather quickly. Hardly a surprise considering the sheer amount of warring the men of the time partook in.

[@maggiesand8726]

In the USA in particular, I think a big part of the reason the softer ideal of masculinity gets criticized so much is precisely because it is appreciated by women. A lot of things enjoyed stereotypically by women are seen as "weak, embarrasing, less than", because that's how women are subconsciously, or even consciously, viewed. Books, music, art, and celebrities with majority female fans get shit on for no reason.

[@brandonjablasone7544]

No it is quite the opposite. Women love strong men. That's why a lot of me here a muscular and macho. The want men to appear strong and be soft. Most of these Korean men appear soft and are actual very feminine and clingy. These a nothing but sissify men with blastuc surgery.

[@fearlessali2852]

Yeah! In American society, so much Bullshit is perceived as Masculine.... that's why there is so much Violence on streets, home , against Women etc. The funny thing is that even Subjects and Colours are divided as Feminine and Masculine. Even subjects got divided as Male and Female subjects...like Arts , music etc. is for female and Maths , Science, Engineering etc are for Males...though in India subjects are never the issue of Male and Female genders. People around here cheer up if the Female has topped the Maths ,Science and Engineering....and if they ant to study those subjects, nobody warns them as male subjects. Being conservative society,this is not the case though other Misogynistic and Sexist problems exists in some way or the other that too everywhere. Women didn't have to fight for voting and driving as it had happened in America.

[@AskMe-fl2sm]

Well,isn’t some girls r way too obsessed with some stranger & do cringe things for them?

[@abc-ju5oq]

This is an interesting perspective!

[@cammymc1982]

FACTZ!!!👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@tiramisunsun]

What annoys me also is how people consider "feminine" men to be "less" than "real manly men", as if embracing feminity is bad, or makes you weak. From my experience, guys who appear more "feminine" are usually more mature, aren't afraid of accepting feminine traits as part of them and make really good friends/partners.

[@AnimeArchaeologist]

Are they drowning in attention from women, though?

[@vklnew9824]

During the roman empire they were usually f***** in the rear by high status men who were masculine.

[@yuliusjrt9917]

IMO, it is needed to be masculine to protect against other masculine men. Paradoxical right? But I guess I see it like if a single person has a gun in a neighbourhood standoff, the others must also acquire guns to protect themselves. Plus men have burdens to shoulder that require using masculine mentalities of stoicism and emotional control.

[@Serocco]

@@AnimeArchaeologist Have you not seen BTS fangirls? Or even female fans of male VTubers like Vox Akuma?

[@AnimeArchaeologist]

@@Serocco They're popular. Most feminine men do not have fangirls.

[@tylerblake5507]

As an Asian literture major it's so cool seeing actual quotes that I've read in class being used for a video. Great job

[@juliaxiao5320]

which quote?

[@markfuckerberg9859]

Wow, with your major, you'll be working in McDonald's for the rest of your life

[@darthvadeth6290]

This is a terrible take 🤣 As an economist, it's pretty clear what she's saying makes absolutely no objective sense, but it is purely based on her personal, heavily biased interpretation. The fundamental purpose of "masculinity" is to attract mates. And the dating/marriage market, which is basically a micro-economy, has already proved you wrong after generations of testing. There is a reason Asian women overwhelmingly prefer white men - it's because white men are more masculine than Asian men. She can deny it, and say "we prefer more effeminate men", but statistics show that when it comes to decision time, Asian women vote (with their action) against everything she is saying here, and prefer more masculine men over effeminate men.

[@rifqimujahid4907]

​@@markfuckerberg9859lol it only proves a point of how disfunctional american education is, ideally ppl who pursue such major should be in the forefront i dojng bilateral diplomacy because the degree should lead to better outlook at understanding foreign culture hence reducing unnecessary contempt and suspicions. Instead you lot had a cheetos for a president while throwing tantrum at chinese for political credit

[@healingpoisonbreak9984]

​@@darthvadeth6290Whatever makes you sleep at night.

[@Holly-kj6rs]

"Effeminate men" is such an odd concept to me. I am a woman. I've never been worried that I am not feminine because as a woman, as long as I stay true to myself and don't pretend to be someone else, everything I do is womanly by definition. It's the same for a man. I guess other people don't see it that way, but that's always been my line of thinking

[@alekamoon]

True. I hate the idea of feminity considered as a weakness which is obviously misogynistic. How beauty is associated with only a women and men being violent and muscular is kinda stupid. Both sexes can do what are "feminine" and "masculine", so why should we claim traits to be only for men or women.

[@r3dsnow757]

I've been told by one my ex girlfriends that I wasn't man enough...I really wonder how she would know what it means 🤔

[@Dryhten1801]

@@alekamoon Do you deny that there is a biological difference between men and women? And furthering on from that, do you deny that men are biologically existent to serve as the physically stronger human?

[@alekamoon]

@@Dryhten1801 well men are stronger physically but women are more enduring, so it does not matter who serves. Also man had more opportunity to improve physical body, whilst women were attached to home chores or no physical activity

[@rene3759]

@@Dryhten1801 there are biological differences but also similarities between men and women. men and women are not polar opposites. they may be complementary in terms of reproduction but that doenst mean that a) complementary does not mean opposite and b) that the aspect in which they are complementary for (reproduction) covers all aspects of their biological and psychologial selves. male and female is on a spectrum not a binary. we can see this in how varied men are amongst them selves and women are amongs themselves and how biologically and psychologically people can be layed out on a spectrum between male and female. men and women are not like black and white. Also the AVERAGE man is physically stronger and taller/bigger then the AVERAGE woman. This however does NOT mean ALL men are bigger/taller/physically stronger then ALL women. This does not mean or make the men who come across women who are bigger/taller/physically stronger then them women or effeminate. The issue is that peopl want to see nature as black and white straight line boxes which is incorrect and not true and it never was so. Nature is way more fluid and muitable and ever changing and evolving slower or faster in different aspects depending on the environmental influences.

[@Nick-nb2oz]

curiously, about "wen" and "wu" here in the west in Spain, during the medieval and modern era, the peak of masculinity was considered a man that had both the sword and and the feather, meaning that he was capable as a soldier and also intelligent and well read, so not one or the other, but both, and those men were considered honorable in society, usually Don Quijote's author is mentioned as an example of that

[@datchicray]

Exactly, this is not a uniquely Chinese depiction of masculinity. It would be considered that in most societies.

[@gametri-eq6lj]

mainly the stereotypical ones are strategist and general

[@bakedgoods7116]

The greeks as well, the "soldier-scholar" archetype, philosophers like Socrates and Plato were Hoplites when they were younger.

[@SINOEURO]

@@bakedgoods7116 “The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”― Thucydides

[@Y0KAl]

also the concept of a renaissance man embodies similar ideals

[@Yu-lb8xv]

It’s funny how the soft masculinity forbidden by the Chinese government is a very effective tool of soft power. This video kind of relates to your previous one if I’m not wrong where the actions of the government kinda get in the way of its aspirations.

[@Nanancay]

The gov at this point makes me sad, China could be thriving through soft power if they really let it happen 😭

[@larshofler8298]

@@Nanancay "Soft power", you mean highly exploitative and repetitive entertainment industry. Im glad China is not becoming the next South Korea, exporting idol groups to the world. I dislike k-pop style "pretty boy" as well, it's not suitable for men.

[@tmtmtm520]

@@Nanancay yup lots of missed opportunities to import their culture to the world

[@skazka3789]

@@Nanancay Between soft power and state sovereignty, I choose the latter

[@jonteet]

​@@skazka3789 what 🤣

[@dutenead790]

As a French woman, I found it interesting to see how Asia sees "Western" masculinity. It's as if a single image reached Asia (e.g the currently dominant US one), while from the West, we see the same contrasts and historical evolutions as Aini mentions in China. In France for example, in the Middle Ages we had both the bold and masculine knight and the courtly poet, dreamy and softer-looking. Also, your point about the difference between the male perception of masculinity and the female one was interesting. I feel we should be aiming at highlighting common points between men and women rather than building gender stereotypes in opposition to each other, in order to bring better harmony between the sexes.

[@francisnopantses1108]

I have Irish family and being able to tell entertaining stories on the fly is an important masculine virtue in Irish culture-to be a raconteur, if you will. It's a part of American culture but has a pejorative connotation-- to Americans it's associated with conmen, salesmen, politicians, and other sleaze. And that's reflected in American media.

[@deadlyrobot5179]

"in order to bring better harmony between the sexes" You can say that again when you're at war When sh!t hits the fan, the "harmony" goes out the window real fast, you ladies going to dip while we guys have to stay. As a man, from the moment that you come to this world, to the day you take your last breath, the big brother can get you by the back of your neck and sends you to die, and when that moment comes, not a soul in this world wants or needs a feminine man.

[@dutenead790]

I'd say it varies a lot: while some films still present the action man as ideal, others have moved towards a different image, more sensitive/intellectual. I think they're trying to catter to growing differences among the female audience. I see a rift between the women who still believe in the soft female / strong male relationship and those who can easily do without a man if they can't find one who corresponds to their more progressive ideals. I'd say it' not an easy society to be a man in these days. @@polusdroop

[@JinMeowsoon]

@@polusdroopTo add up to OP’s comment, it’s quite difficult to say because mainstream doesn’t exist in France like it does in the US and it’s even more jarring in the younger generations. If we’re taking mainstream, it would be how French TV and cinema, in particular, commonly depicts the exact same niche family or friends drama-comedy. It’s appealing mainly to the 40+ demographic and I’m being nice, I suspect most viewers are seniors. I’m 29 and so far French media being popular with younger people has been anecdotal. It’s more common for the younger generation to have interest in foreign media… mainly the US, Japan and Korea. Did you know France is the 2nd biggest consumer of manga in the world behind Japan and that kpop is huge here? Anyway, to answer your question, usually I’d say the most favoured quality in men by women would be being fun to be around. It can mean either someone intellectual or quite active. And I agree with OP, a lot of women prefer to stay single.

[@JinMeowsoon]

@@polusdroop Typically young people understand English to an extent (watch a US TV show with FR subtitles ; browse EN social media ; read EN books…) but can’t speak it that well because they don’t get a lot of opportunities to practice it. English classes are quite limited and repetitive here. We practice grammar and read aloud to the class. I took “Advanced English” (a speciality) in high school, it was the first time I was asked to read a EN book and do analysis/essays. We also had a few British history lessons: IMO it really helped with understanding because we focus on the content and deduce unknown/unrecognized words from the sentence.

[@studiohq]

I have noticed that EVERY smart pretty boy actor in China has done a Nationalist/Republican/Police/Fireman movie, show, drama to give the impression that they can play and be seen as masculine and loyal.

[@marvin2678]

as they should, kings

[@siyaramhanuman16]

exactly & the examples can be of Yang Yang , Wang Yibo

[@Ajia_No_Envy]

Comparing East Asian masculinity to African masculinity is like comparing how bitter straight black coffee is to latte, like sure they are both coffee but goddamn are they nothing alike.

[@SaifAlikhan-wy1zs]

Then what is african masculinity? I would like to learn the difference

[@sakurakou2009]

@@SaifAlikhan-wy1zs I think african masculinity when man provide to his family and not all but lot african cultures are ok with polygamy so if african man is rich and have many wives and children he considered as alpha man or father figure. The most alpha of all is when no one see his wife, african women working outside her house is considered as sign of her man not been good provider, also dowry. African men are required to pay dowry to african women family so again wealth is the main focus when speaking on man masculinity, african men looks in general not considered feminine, I noticed that lot east african men are skinny and dont really grow facial hair but normally you would never mistake african man for woman nor the reverse, african women curvy and feminine so you won't mistaken them, also the most physically macho african woman when put side to side with african man she would still look female.

[@B121AN1]

@@SaifAlikhan-wy1zs Idk, which part of Africa?

[@loveangel114]

it also depends on the country as European colonization had a major effect on how we view masculinity.

[@lasvina3610]

And there are people who like coffee stronger or weaker taste 😏

[@artsyjames]

The Wen and Wu split was interesting because thinking back to Greek philosophers that represent the "base" of a lot of Western education, they proned both the importance of being fit of mind and body, the scolar athlete ideal. I was surprised to hear Wen and Wu are thought of as opposite instead of parts of a whole.

[@honkhonk6359]

This is basically the ideal of the Samurai or Knight, the balanced combination of martial prowess and intellectualism into a whole man. I think the historical Chinese model tended towards scholarship, while the American (probably due to the frontier spirit) archetype shed off its European "Old Continent" erudition and became overly physical as a result.

[@ReviveHF]

The only reason why Wen and Wu was split was due to "division of labour" . Division of Labour is part of the development of the civilization, which rings true even today.

[@stevenmackintosh8160]

@@ReviveHF Interesting, in ancient Greece/Roman republic all soldiers were citizens, not professional soldiers. That likely explains the difference indeed.

[@TheGreatgan]

@ArtsyJames, in most era, yin yang philosophy hold true, so most scholar still had to learn basic martial art, horse riding, and hunting. only very few silver spoon aristocrats, can be very feminines.. a very small exception..

[@muhammadedwards8425]

@@TheGreatgan Yes, they are not opposites, but complementary pieces of masculinity

[@jasonquigley2633]

Something to bear in mind here is that the "western masculine ideal" she's referring to is really an American masculine ideal, where the rugged frontiersman has been prominent for a long time. If you were to look at other Western countries the masculine ideal is different. For example, in Ireland, where I'm from, it's much more important for a man to be a good conversationalist and witty, while being emotionally stoic, but being muscular is less emphasised, the most idolized men are generally comedians(though athletes are also prominent, the most popular athletes are the ones who are witty). I think the UK is broadly similar. The UK gave us James Bond, who's more known for sharp dressing, killer(literally) one liners and urbane sophistication, then he is for muscled or rugged good looks. Its hard to be aware of all these different European countries, however, and the video is of course about China, not the west. I think it's interesting that in China the humorous or trickster "type" of masculinity isn't as represented, as its quite prominent in other countries. Its close to "Wen", but my experience with "Wen" characters in Chinese fiction is that they're more earnest than funny. The CCP, of course, is an utterly humourless organisation.

[@LuxVertas]

I was thinking this, and yes, it is disappointing that at least half the world is lumped in to US culture.

[@honkhonk6359]

European masculinity = knight chivalry American masculinity = frontiersman

[@thomaharadja5307]

She doesn’t even mention a western masculine ideal. The West is just a spectre looming over the East in her mind warped by Said’s shoddy scholarship. She tries to link kpop idols to notions like Wen and Wu, when really, idols are just entertainment products, serving a consumerist ideal, much like the hypermasculinity and violence portrayed in much mainstream hip hop. Wen and Wu are closer to Greek ideals of Philosopher and Warrior than they are to Suga and Jimin. She implies that western influence means a focus on muscle, reliability, the capacity to provide, fitness of body and mind, and strong will. Those are all unambiguously good things, to say that they are a western is really preposterous.

[@diegoaespitia]

i dont believe this for a second. you have Connor Mcgregor. an MMA fighter. he is the masculine ideal in a traditional sense. raw strength. if he wasnt such a meathead, and went to college for an engineering degree. you can damn well bet all ur cash that he would be the ideal. not some stoic string bean. please. also how many times have i heard the Irish talk about their Gaelic barbarian ancestors chopping down the foreign invaders? uh hu.h... "witty and well-rounded" sure

[@jasonquigley2633]

@@diegoaespitia You don't know your arse from your elbow. 1. Ireland has many successful athletes, what sets Conor Mcgregor apart isn't his success, its how he behaves outside of the ring, with his wit and other antics. If he was just successful, he'd be known but that would be it. 2. In fact, he isn't even that popular in Ireland. He's popular with the MMA/boxing crowd, and while those sports have a large following in Ireland, they're considered "low class", most Irish people only pay attention when someone is wildly successful, but otherwise the typical parent would be appalled if their son took part in either sport. GAA, Soccer, Rugby, Golf and horse racing are all as or more popular sports in Ireland. Most men would aspire to the physique you see on footballers or GAA players, neither of which are ever "jacked", the most popular athlete in Ireland in my lifetime was Roy Keane. On top of that, Comedians like Dara O'Briain, musicians like Bono or Phil Lynnot, and actors like Colin Farrell are all more prominent. I'd say if you look at Colin Farrell, he's probably closest to what most men in Ireland are aiming for. 3. This whole "fighting barbarian Irish" stereotype is far more popular with Irish Americans than actual Irish people. If you spoke to real Irish people they'd tell you that Ireland is "the land of saints and scholars", and I'd say the vast majority of Irish people resent foreigners associating the country with violent behaviour. Perhaps you should spend more time talking to actual people in Ireland, and less in Irish American plastic paddy fantasies about a country you're multiple generations removed from.

[@xfirstly]

I have struggled my entire life to meet a guy I liked because I really value the ‘soft’ side in guys - interested in art, social issues, in touch with their emotions etc. all these traits make a really well rounded person for me but are sadly frowned upon by the general society. Men are told from a young age to be strong and infallible so being more delicate is perceived as a weakness and many guys suppress it - making them fear vulnerability. Of course, these are just my observations but I believe that this attitude towards what a man should be makes a lot of guys struggle and become cold.

[@Solararisa]

So much this. As a masc attracter person, it's often so hard to find a guy that fits my type, since 90% of the time men suppress their femininity in fear of being shunned.

[@TurtleMarchingKing]

Date a woman, you clearly don't like men.

[@TurtleMarchingKing]

​@@Solararisasame goes to you.

[@rajanlad3646]

The fear is that if I show my vulnerability , you will eventually resent me as I not masculine as some partners of your friends and you might abandon me. This is what I fear.

[@Solararisa]

@@TurtleMarchingKing same goes to me what

[@sohanicridland9116]

I love this video. Every culture has their problems and ideal portrayals of masculinity. In the black community in America many people see lighter skin as effeminate and darker skin as masculine. That is so negative because dark skin black women are often seen as masculine and light skin men are seen as more femenine. When paired with full lips and long lashes people have a field day trashing on light skin black men for their natural appearance. Often times through in the word “f*g” and “gay”.

[@sarithajagajith6568]

Since when did skin colour had to do with masculinity? Lol!

[@sc3k]

@@sarithajagajith6568 Since it was used by others to define it... lol you didn't read the comment or what

[@DarlyaFaroeste]

Why is the black community so violent? They need to stop beating their children, they are training them to accept beating from other people and to do it on others, hence the high rates of domestic violence in black communities. Other races does experience this too but at a smaller rate...

[@RazorRamonMachismo]

yet there is this thing called lightskin rizz and meek mills is also light skin lol

[@toomuchinformation]

@@sarithajagajith6568 It does in the African American community as the OP mentioned.

[@imshulei]

This is just about celebrities and famous internet personalities, but back to reality, most Chinese men are ordinary, not feminine or robust male figures, Chinese men don't demand much from their appearance and don't go for plastic surgery at a high rate, and makeup at an even lower rate, these are usually done by celebrities

[@imshulei]

It all depends on the individual, and apparently in China people are not overly concerned with their outward appearance

[@shastasilverchairsg]

Yea work is more important.

[@αστρον]

@sanshi Plastic surgery is not cheap and very unsafe if u are not going to a reputed doctor not all country's are like Korea where u need one to be hired

[@nolanpeale6472]

Yes. I think the point that the government is missing in this instance is that these people are in the end entertainers and there are much different standards that are applied to them. They want them to be moral and aesthetic paragons for the working class to aspire to but that isn't how people perceive them. If I'm going to see someone in a concert on stage or in a video I want them to look fabulous and larger than life. Sequenze. Odd clothes. Hair that stands out from the crowd, just like I want them to sing, dance, or look stunning on my TV screen. I don't pay money to see joe schlub in the convenience store buying a cup of coffee after he's been up all night working.

[@sarithajagajith6568]

Not putting makeup is not simply masculine.

[@Solararisa]

I think it's also weird how much coping some people do when they see more unconventionally attractive men, who fall much more on the softer masculinity or femininity side, and try to reason how it's only attractive to "younger girls", implying no adult women would find them attractive. I have heard that way too many times as a teenage girl and now as an adult woman, unsurprisingly, my taste hasn't changed one bit. Many men view women as a "thing" to be protected, so they try to reason how men MUST be traditionally masculine to be with women, and anyone who doesn't fit into that standard is weak. That also leans into the notion that femininity is inherently weak and docile, and only knows how to be dominated. It's clear that different people have different preferences. There are people who prefer traditionally masculine men and there are also people who prefer more softer, feminine men. Though there is so much more stigma surrounding around the latter. Also, all the toxic masculine, incel men in this comment section are fuming as usual at the very thought of women being attracted to non-traditional masculine men, not surprised one bit.

[@marvin2678]

as a thing you mean "person they love over everything and would die protecting " right ?

[@willrmmerhunter]

​@@marvin2678No, a thing. Hence why men killing their thing is so common they are the first suspected whenever a thing dies.

[@worstusernameintheworld9871]

lmao the lack of "manly" boys responding to you because you're right, OP

[@rd3munna812]

You are totally wrong men who look soft are going to look rough when they reach in their 40s no man is going to stay soft masculine forever. Example Leo decaprio he used to be considered as a pretty/soft boy now he look like a normal masculine man. Even though femininity it's self is not weak but compare to masculine it's physically weak that's why people consider femininity as weak. Example women are 4-5 Inch shorter than men has 50% less muscle mass than men

[@Solararisa]

@@rd3munna812 How you age depends on your genetics and ethnicity more than femininity and masculinity. East Asian actors age much gracefully (albeit they also take help from their surgeons, lol) compared to many Western celebs I have seen. Heck, google Korean actors in their 40s, and legit most of them barely look like they are in their 40s. Lee Dongwook has softer features than masculine and the dude has aged beautifully.

[@OpheliaTerat]

Tbh most depictions of ideal men in western media are what other men find ideal, not what women like. I remember when Twilight was popular and guys made fun of Edward for looking gay lol. They still do that now with Kpop idols and other popular softer looking male celebs. It's kinda funny because I've noticed super macho looking men seem to be more popular with gay guys lmao. Just look at how bara looks versus yaoi.

[@halloweenist664]

True that. Wonder how many of those homophobic dudes who hate “feminine” men are secretly gay lol

[@almilall]

tokio hotel bill kaulitz black veil brides andy biersack

[@berrymckockiner5883]

That's cap, as an Asian it's only been a recent trend to like feminine looking men

[@worstusernameintheworld9871]

​@@berrymckockiner5883bro's never watched yaoi before lmao

[@berrymckockiner5883]

@@worstusernameintheworld9871 you're not a man, you don't know our experience

[@thierrymine]

I very much like the fact you brought up the female gaze, since personally I believe this had (and has) a large impact on which beauty ideals are currently considered fashionable. One more thing I wanna bring up is how ideals in the West changed overtime. Initially around Victorian times white pale skin was considered ideal as it signified that the person wasn’t working in the fields or working in a factory. But as the West moved to a service based economy this changed as muscularity and skin tone was seen as a sign that the person was outgoing and didn’t have to work in an office all the time. I would be very curious to hear if you believe this might have a connection to the current male beauty standards in China and if you see this trend perhaps also catching on in China. In either case amazing video! I cannot wait to see what other deep dives you have in store for us!

[@mspaint93]

Agree on the female gaze part! The idealized men for the longest time were projected by men, and only fairly recently has womens actual ideals become more socially acceptable to be heard. I think of my mum's generation where her actual ideal is still hugh jackman but with an nice sweater and apron on making dinner and smiling sweetly, which is like.. 50s yr olds kpop boys lol

[@notproductiveproductions3504]

@@mspaint93 yeah but now my dented nose tells people the wrong things about me

[@ntbored7727]

Gotta make sure no one comes put and says female gaze can only be a positive thing

[@nebhalabir1201]

Poo

[@marvin2678]

the femal gaze is very toxic

[@yo-2029]

I do notice that all Asians are somewhat subjected to similar standards of masculinity in the west, not just East Asians. As an Asian man from Pakistan, despite being hairy and seen as conventionally masculine in my home country, when I came to USA and lived with an African American family for one summer, I was told to behave a bit more masculine in order to not get bullied by cousins in family gatherings. I am trying to go for more masculine look myself such as working out, and maintaining a beard, but it does feel so difficult to change the way I present myself at times.

[@brendanm6921]

Mate, are you hurting anyone by behaving how you naturally feel comfortable? No, so bollocks to anybody who tries to make you change. At the end of the day, if you aren't harming anyone then you're golden.

[@a.serena4321]

Be yourself. Don't change because of other cultures. You're individual, in the end, is better be hated and yourself than be loved and wear a mask. You're not weak, you're strong as yourself.

[@a.serena4321]

And don't try to fit western standard, a lot of these masculine Standard are toxic, such as man don't express their feelings, or be an "alpha" male, be womanizer and other things.

[@yahyamallouh8987]

well, it depends on your beliefs since if you're a Muslim you have a clear example on muscularity from the prophet peace be upon him, so just keep going and know that a person can be lazy, weak, glutton or greedy by nature so just "acting naturally" can be the best tip to destroy your life so always strive to better yourself and don't fake it and lie, and remember you're doing it for yourself and not for others

[@yahyamallouh8987]

@@a.serena4321 acting natural in certain cases can be what destroys a person as some people can have wrong or evil tendencies by nature so the correct thing is to better yourself and change that which is bad, but I agree in not following western masculinity, as a Muslim taking care of one's hygiene, trying to smell nice and try to be merciful and kind in what you do are things heavily viewed as good but we still have a very strong stance against a man acting feminine like talking in a girly manner, wearing certain things or dancing and ofc having beard is a must for us, as it's described as the pride of the man by the prophet's wife

[@thaothelazycat930]

The ideals of masculinity don't just encompass physical appearance or type of abilities, but to a significant extent, personality. There are a lot of male icons in Asia who break those norms, with seemingly youthful, effeminate looks but are renowned for their masculine dualities, such as strong, assertive personalities. One person I can think of is Korean-Russian model Park Yu-ri. He has a youthful face characteristic of a flower boy yet has contrasting masculine traits, like tall height, deep voice, muscular body, and on top of that, masculine personality. He's known for being quite competitive and has characteristically masculine interests, like b-boying. On the other hand, you also have macho-looking men with contrasting soft, cute, gentle personalities who are popular with the public. In South Korea, there are a few middle-aged actors renowned for their masculine appearance or character roles yet are known for their cute, lively, gentle personalities among fans. Often, these actors have "-vely" attached to their surnames, like ""Ma-vely" for Ma Dong-seok, and "Heo-vely" for Heo Sung-tae. Among the K-pop idol circle, one person I can think of is NU'EST's Baekho. He's known for his masculine, muscular looks yet is also loved by fans for his bubbly, soft personality. On top of that, he's the main vocalist, which in K-pop groups, isn't considered a typical role for a masculine character. So, masculine appeal among Asian men doesn't just fall with certain archetypes but also embodies multiple dimensionalities, including personality and interests.

[@pihlaya4475]

For me masculinity is all about the "spirit", if you like; even a little girl can be masculine if need be. I mostly subscribe to the Norse/Viking code for masculinity, which is mostly described with the idea of "Drengr" with ideas of loyalty and self sufficiency added to it, generally speaking.

[@pihlaya4475]

Speaking of the Norse, I think the wise man (Odin) or the beautiful man (Baldur) aren't judged by their traits but rather their character, when it comes to manliness. It's Loki who's the least masculine of the gods, even if he can look like whatever he fancies, being a shapeshifter

[@moodygirl609]

When I think of Korean men all I can think of is Lee Joon-Gi.

[@anomalianomali5080]

Masculinity is always about traits/personality, never about physical appereance

[@snehajagajith6409]

Same goes to femininity

[@luisaramos6862]

I watched a C-drama recently and the main character had both. He was a scholar, talented in music, poetry, making perfumes, was a tea champion and on top of that was a general and everyone feared him. They used words to describe him such as "beautiful" that we in the west would rarely use to describe a man. I found him absolutely delightful as a character and as an actor. He had long hair, used beautiful flowy dress-like gowns/costumes, moved slowly and gentle, had amazing manners and then he would also would slay the enemies. But he was certainly not the "macho" portrayal of a hero we have in the west. The drama is Novoland Pearl eclipse with William Chan and Yang Mi and I loved that portrayal of masculinity.

[@linhlinhnguyen4550]

In the east since like hundreds of years weve been prefer soft masculinity. A gentleman is someone has good manners, gentle, a scholar in both academics and martial art. East asian concepts abt masculinity probably are derived from Confucian norms

[@कनलदअ_गनगयव]

wigs and make up were popular among men in the olden days of europe so i’m not sure what you’re getting at here. is this ur first time finding about trends and fads lmao

[@कनलदअ_गनगयव]

@@linhlinhnguyen4550read my above coment

[@linhlinhnguyen4550]

@@कनलदअ_गनगयव your reply is not even relevant to my comment. What are you trying to prove?

[@कनलदअ_गनगयव]

@@linhlinhnguyen4550 u bum the modern standard rugged masculinity only came out after the french revolution or smth. the european aristocrat wig and make up shit is not different from muh confucian ideals that east asia SUPPOSEDLY still has. u got no historical literacy broham😭😭😭

[@moodygirl609]

Great exposition. As a fan of Cdramas and Kdramas I found this historical take very informative. My female gaze takes in both so-called macho men as well as men who present as 'soft' beauties. What's important is that neither 'types' of men are cruel and violent as either are capable of misogyny and acting on it to victimize women.

[@simpleman1178]

well said

[@Ewang2727]

That’s great and all but keep in mind that men don’t care or think like this when it comes to relationships with women. What they pay attention to is why you choose to sleep with vs who you demand a relationship first - men will always view those you are more likely to sleep with as the person you intrinsically find more attractive and those you see as marriage material as a settling safe option. It’s quite the opposite than what many women think

[@moodygirl609]

@@Ewang2727 I don't presume to know what men think. What I've learned is that people generally want to be in caring relationships with trust and honesty as a basic foundation. At different stages of life people might look for casual contacts while at other times longer term commitments are sought and this is all good as long as there is communication as to what either party are seeking from the other involved.

[@hanatemonstas4485]

@@moodygirl609He is probably speaking about himself, his friend circle and family, which speaks more to his poor character and the people he choses to be around than it speaks of other men. After all, a thief assumes everyone steals.

[@fayseverin2305]

Excellent point!

[@nestorcsamacho6328]

She's back!!!

[@aliskprado]

I'm personally tired of all the masculinity and femininity standards, one way or another. You are man, you have to be like this. You are woman, you have to be like that. Come on... Let individuals decide how they want to be, independently of the body they were born in. Since we can't choose our genes, let us at least decide what to do with them!

[@ausaskar]

You *can* "be whatever you want to be". But you can't make others view that as attractive.

[@littlebluefishy]

@@ausaskar well said

[@iwillgowiththatcat8667]

@@ausaskar who cares people are do different in their view of attractiveness aswell.either way you should be living the way YOU want to not how others want you to live.

[@phongdinh199]

@@iwillgowiththatcat8667 you should care actually, because if everyone just do whatever they want to do then it's gonna be a disaster for all of us. It's a crime against humanity.

[@dmdmdmydmdm6487]

I'm more tired of those who try to break it down and spread their destructive ideology just because they "feel" different

[@Cheattoe]

I’m a gay masculine man and love watching straight people lose their minds over it

[@worstusernameintheworld9871]

based

[@dont_harsh_my_mellow]

But…gays…but…no femboy? What? 🤯

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

??? Is that a thing now? Must been my experience grows up in the 80s when homosexual comes off in many form and Freddie (Queen's front man) are far off from "femboy" type😂

[@carol-annlennards8183]

Gay and masculine is an oxymoron!!!!

[@NayrAnur]

@@nurlindafsihotang49 Yeah. Freddie Mercury, Elton John, David Bowie, and Prince are pretty camp but not really feminine to me. Edit: Okay, the last two can be pretty femme, too.

[@namarrkon]

I really love these videos, as an avid consumer of chinese culture and media I am so happy to have these Ideas spread to others without the overlooming shadow of "CCP Bad".

[@keatonwastaken]

Yep, I feel the same way. The American Anti-Chinese propaganda has made it really hard to find good and unbiased information about it.

[@stephenpedersen1346]

@@keatonwastaken avoid google and the mainstream media, invest in some books from unbiased people. hopefully that will help :)

[@lancetheking7524]

Love the Chinese people, hate the government

[@rubyy.7374]

@@keatonwastaken “I don’t like politics” *Proceeds to talk politics*

[@lancetheking7524]

@Muzobuicco it is, the ccp is evil but spamming it is annoying

[@lunarebony6122]

Honestly I feel like its bcs from my view, men with a soft masculinity are often more mature and sensible, and more gentle, which kind of makes us feel safer and more comfortable than a big bulky muscly guy who could get violent.

[@AnaLu07]

Same. I feel WAY safer with a soft guy than a bulky guy. I never understood the whole concept of "bulky guys" being "protectors". They could physically hurt me and emotionaly they tend to be agressive, misogynistic, bad communicators and so on (to prove that they are "masculine"). While soft guys are safer, just as beautiful (or even more), have good conversations, introspection, are in touch with their emotions and, therefore, they are better to be in a relationship with.

[@zekai7095]

keep lying to urself

[@eri_sama]

​@@zekai7095keep coping

[@kennyng2730]

It's diff for diff girls. I know many girls who really love masculine guys. Masculinity does not mean a violent man. It could also mean strong, stable, dependable, willing to fight for you etc. Pls don't twist the words of masculinity by bastardizing it. Looking more feminine does not mean the guy does not have masculine traits either. I've friends whos a pretty boy but is masculine AF. He was just born that way. Not like he can choose what he wants to look like in a simulation. The gripe i have is that 90% of the guys who looks like that now have undergone plastic. We r losing plenty of biodiversity in terms of features nowadays as even decent looking guys are changing their face to look like a Korean celeb. My dad got confused AF when he watched some of the Korea /china drama that my sis watches and always ask why all of em looks the same. He asked the same on the girls too. Lol

[@oishyzaman5513]

​@@zekai7095 keep crying harder most women prefer man like that 🤗

[@Gallalad1]

I would say cultural attainment is a big part of traditional western masculinity. Look at, for example, the western preference for people who become doctors or lawyers. While not martial or macho their intellegence sets them apart. They arent mutually exclusive. If you look at shows like Breaking Bad or Suits being traditionally macho isnt as prevelent or is seen as complimentary to a high degree of intellegence. Edit: Too add some historical examples, the ideal of warrior poets like Fionn MacCumhaill and the Fianna of ancient Ireland or of the love given to Cicero and Plato in the broader west tend to emphasise the idea that powerful masculinity and intellectual achievement are often complimentary or at least not opposed.

[@sic5764]

Which makes sense, every historical society after all needed that purely martial masculinity to keep themselves safe from outsiders, the intellectual masculinity to not only keep society running but also to advance it and a good mix of both in their leadership to keep everything balanced and well running. To add to that I would compare medieval european and chinese society, in both you had a emperor/king on top with both martial and intellectual ideals, below him you have the clergy and the bureaucracy with the intellectual ideals, below/beside them you have the nobility with similar trades as the emperor/king and below them you have the knights/soldiers with the martial ideals. In that regard I dont think china or europe are in any way special, medieval indian and islamic societies had similar structures, and I have no doubt that we can see a similar picture with other historical societies around the world. In that regard masculinity seems to be a social construct in its many local and smaller differences and nuances around the world while being dictated by nature and circumstance in a more general way throughout the world, regardless of culture.

[@meatseekingmissile4488]

It's a super dumb thing to say that western masculinity does not include an idea of male-dominated scholarship.

[@ShiniGamiGG]

I'd argue in suits that Harvey fits the traditional sense of masculinity to a T

[@enterurnamehere27]

@@sic5764 how does Islamic societies "had similar structure"? As a Muslim that actually knows about our history, I argue that we're pretty different from you guys

[@enterurnamehere27]

@@meatseekingmissile4488 yes, traditional "western masculinity" may very well still includes scholarship pursuits, but the "macho man" is still the more prevalent one. In popular western media, you don't really see anyone who's described as being "manly male" if he only have the intellectual/scholarly pursuits but not the "macho" characteristics, while if you only have the "macho" characteristics, you're automatically a "manly male" even if you don't have any intellectual/scholarly pursuits

[@KrazyVideoChick]

Ive actually never saw Asian men as effeminate. I always thought they had like a quiet confidence. Unlike here in the west where men can kind of come across boastful and arrogant at times. (Hell everybody in the west tbh 😂) I mean anyone can come off as boastful it's just that in the west it seems more in your face

[@xakushonx8798]

Korean man for example are way more toxic than western man lol.

[@Catman-xw4ec]

@@xakushonx8798true lmao

[@PlayerXIII]

I've heard the term 男人味 as long as I've known Mandarin. And it hints to the protector archetype of the Chinese male. The martial artist. The Jackie Chan's and the Jet Li's. Though not muscle bound monsters, they are fit, capable, not afraid of a fight. They create safety for the ppl around them. To contrast, the 70s disco era in the west had a ton of feminine and androgynous men who staked their own claims as ideals: David Bowie, Prince, MJ, etc Culturally, it feels like popularity of varied representations comes and goes in cycles. On an individual level, it feels like its up to the eye of the beholder.

[@ClaimClam]

the ideal chinese maculine males are called 哥們兒 with lare bellies and much 啤酒

[@peterwang5660]

@@ClaimClam Mhm, you've spent too much time with trashy Northerners.

[@ZhiYin]

男人味 is not what you think it is. Jackie Chan and Jet Li are bad examples of this word. 梁朝伟 and 周润发 are more suitable for this word.

[@ttytty6940]

Nah…. They are marketing 😝 divided by handsome or not handsome celebrities(comedian mostly)…. Young & handsome, all are once 小鲜肉, go look up young version of above hk celebrities young…. Young Jet li is obviously 小鲜肉…. I don’t know about Jackie Chan, that’s why he does dangerous stunts 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️😂😂 as they got old almost all of them had to leave 小鲜肉category into more 暖男category 😅，then older into grandpa category 😂😂

[@ttytty6940]

男人味is also that what’s she says to you when you have body odour 😅😅

[@Whyjustwhy772]

My family members are so weird and gross about East Asian men. My sister literally asked me if I was a lesbian for liking k-pop idols 😬 I’ve tried to explain that other countries have different standards of masculinity, but they won’t listen

[@LoveYourself-my9nz]

Some people can't digest that men can also look pretty and beautiful!

[@peterwang5660]

Androgyny has been praised everywhere. It’s also just the fashionable culture in East Asia *in this part of history*. There’s another comment here that describes all the different types of masculinity explored in Chinese culture that go WAY beyond Wen and Wu.

[@hanatemonstas4485]

@@peterwang5660Its praised everywhere, so much a country is banning it. It has more social and open acceptance but there is still a lot of pushback.

[@cameliaminculeasa8288]

Yeah, it happened to me when I showed some men Cha Eunwoo. They were all like: you're showing me a girl. I was so confused by their reaction. But they were also holding an extreme position, since they didn't accept Lee Jin-wook as "a real man", and were only considering it when seeing the images from Sweet Home, with the scar on his face. I don't normally entertain this types of people, and they were not my friends, but I was extremely curious about where the line was for them

[@francisnopantses1108]

Some women are drawn to guys that look rugged and tough because they imagine that tough guy will protect them. And people often imagine they need a guard dog if they were hurt at a young age.

[@Mike20we]

You make such great videos and it's surprisingly rare to find people that create video with this quality. Keep it up, you're doing great.

[@bethanybrookes8479]

I think a lot of the lack of interest in macho men from women comes from a desire to be safe without having to be protected and infantalised. Personally, I find its more of the personality than the appearance of macho, because, well, a lot of musclebound men are actually really gentle and respectful. But I can understand where the association between the whole brash personality and muscles and combat prowess comes from, since the desire to be intimidating is a pretty common driving factor in building that kind of appearance. (Not saying all muscle bound men do it for these reasons, in fact an arguably more common factor in gaining muscle is just because staying active feels good, or a desire to advance in a sport one is passionate about.)

[@origamiscotty]

Making Beauty a feminine trait is a cope mechanism of „uglier“ men. they know that the beautiful guy is more desired by women, so he has to cope with phrases like: „they look gay“ or „i can fight him easily“ but women dont care about those things, women mostly prefer beauty in a men, especially in times of peace and cultivation or when they are independent.

[@stevenmackintosh8160]

Look up the male warrior hypothesis. Basically, they found women's preferences for male looks were not correlated to the number of sexual partners. However, when males rated other males on how good in a fight they thought that male would be it was directly correlated to the number of sexual partners. So whatever women may say they are attracted to, they are still sleeping with the macho guys.

[@tattoocutiegal7629]

@@stevenmackintosh8160 what's your point?

[@stevenmackintosh8160]

@@tattoocutiegal7629 can't you read?

[@DeSpaceFairy]

As a MMA practitioner it always makes me laugh when untrained normies think they can "fight" and win against someone just because they feel it. Yes truth, you *could* easily beat up opponents when they are unfit, unskilled, slower, lighter, overall weaker in perspective to you (unless always possible accident). But this isn't *fighting*, when you are really fighting there's the individual facing you and also the uncertainty of the outcome, and in average this is 50/50 there's rules within a controlled environment for safety. In the street thinking you can win just because you believe the other will not it back when yourself never learnt to take a hit, is purely delusional. For how much you attract the opposite sex (or not so opposite, I don't judge) when you are physically fit and figh ready, it helps but it's a contextual variable on how "bright" your personality or lack of it is, and if you are serious with your practice, you divide further your chances and narrowing your pool of potential dating partners. Because you are constraining yourself for results and it spills on others aspect of your life, this is a good deterrent because you become something of a heavy commitment for the other, I don't say you won't have shallow and easy quick shot, but this will often be the same people in immediate environment or people with some kind of fetish and those have already turned around the whole gym multiple times, I don't kink shame (if you know, you know).

[@Tigo625]

That seems like the hardest cope I've ever seen itself. Masculine men (and I don't mean "traditionally masculine" or some social constructionist bullshit, I mean biological masculinity) are and have always been more desired by women. In fact, "modern pretty boys" generally do have masculine facial traits.

[@Milo_atw]

What's also important to point out is that this whole discussion revolves essentially around misogyny. Saying that feminine men are weak implies that feminity is weak. We see masculinity as strong and feminity as weak in our society i mean even the women in the army are considered extra masculine

[@bhanwarsinghshekhawat2006]

there are no women on the frontline currently in ukraine, and ofcourse men have a veryhigh physical advantage just say it, "feminine men are weak implies feminity is weak." ok, define feminine, and one more thing, a weak lean soyboy can't defend u from a robber on street at 3 am or save people from burning building, its ok, leave misandry, embrace masculinity.

[@riplikatlnloki5091]

Nope, they should have masculine traits becuase they are men and have their own role to fill. Women have feminism traits are good for them

[@josueveguilla9069]

"Misogyny"? Nice overused and meaningless buzzword.

[@josueveguilla9069]

@@riplikatlnloki5091Correction: Women having femininity traits are good for them.

[@The-Mediator]

The replies here are not it 💀

[@frankie3213]

Loving the concepts you are exploring - can't wait for your next anlaysis!

[@MidnightIam]

I think people forget that the soft pretty boy dandy look is what guys did in response to women wanting more romantic caring partners instead of the rugged ideals of past times. The standards always change but a dudes never lose the ability to cause violence just because they take a shower or paint their nails...if anything the pretty fave conceals the brutish inner core

[@alantes]

Totally. The actors in dramas and idols are styled and presented that way because this is what sells to women! They are merely a product and a circumstance of the audience’s preferences.

[@screew708]

Wow what a misandrist view of men.

[@HJJ135]

If you look at old kings and nobility in europe the men were also "feminine" during some fashion eras, and also in the west "boy bands" have been popular. So you can look feminine and be masculine in your mind if you understand what I mean.

[@LuxVertas]

We can go older and look at the Vikings, or Spartans. Bunch of pretty boys those were!

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

@@LuxVertas no not at all personal grooming isn't effeminate

[@LuxVertas]

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl That's the joke! Also there wasn't a concept of "Men's" and "Women's" fashion for the Vikings and the Spartans are a HOLE pile of... Madness!

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

@@LuxVertas no they didn't wear uni sex clothes. There was female and male clothes in theses cultures

[@MadNero78]

I really don't understand why they pit their concept of masculinity agaisnt western masculinity as if western masucility is a firm bloc of pure macho energy. They are observing us through the lens of their culture and came up with conclusion but we have had pretty boys, scholars and others since forever.

[@Jaiysful]

I appreciate the breakdown and historical context, but I can't help but notice that some of of the examples of Wen Wu were not intended to portray 'masculinity' but simply to tell a story or drive home a proverbial narrative. Modern Asian Masculinity is simple, widening of wealth-gap means people will gravitate towards traits associated with wealth. Just like how between 1500 and 1900, bodily weight and volume (obesity), for both men and women, had a strong visual appeal because that was associated with wealth.

[@Ogongus]

I’m surprised no one’s mentioned it, but China is also incentivized to encourage masculine men and push down more feminine men because of their aggressive stance against America and the West. Without a decently high population of more aggressive and macho guys, it will affect your perceived fighting ability even when feminine looking men can fight at the same level due to our reliance on firearms instead of hand to hand combat. I really enjoy your in depth dives on these more obscure and complex topics. Keep up the great work!

[@mustafa.ib.rah7]

Having the balance of both Wen☯️Wu together, but also being a masculine gentleman in touch with one's feminine side. 🙏🏾

[@MrKynzer]

As a man I actually love the softer masculine ideal and the popularity of it in recent times, always thought masculine beauty wasn't given enough recognition

[@cacateeah]

These soft looks do naturally exist within males. It should never be categorized into feminine in the first place because men naturally share these traits too

[@johnnytate69]

Beta😂

[@haphuongnguyen3358]

@@johnnytate69 how's your top G doing? Fought another ghost? Or finally managed to twist time and space to get out of prison, to spew nonsense in a blind rage?

[@dydx_]

@@cacateeah I think a better way would be to say that femininity/masculinity should not be confused with the sexes, because they don't relate to another at all. If you think about the abstract idea that defines femininity it'd be smooth/curvy/in ease, and masculinity would be edgy/blocky/rough.

[@wizzotizzo]

​@@johnnytate69 sure buddy, you're the alpha even though you follow one guy and copy all of his beliefs

[@arrietys]

she expresses her ideas so well and her tone is so relaxing!

[@nexusruben137]

Your first video was amazing, and this new one is definitely confirming the quality of this channel! The writing and sound quality (+your voice is agreeable) are once again astonishing for a beginning. I hope your channel will continue to get the success it deserves. I did well well to subscribe

[@nthuthukomdluli1052]

Is she Chinese ?

[@nexusruben137]

@@nthuthukomdluli1052 I don't know. Probably but she most likely lives in an english speaking country.

[@slayergut]

Chinese masculinity is defined by achievements (either scholarly or military), western masculinity is defined by personal fitness and aggression.

[@fabianauer1986]

Not true, the ideal of masculine differs greatly in the West depending on which country you are in. In Austria it's about having a sharp mind and being physically atheltic. This largely differs in the country

[@slayergut]

@@fabianauer1986 whut... Doesn't that prove my point? Achievement vs traits. Sharp mind and fitness sounds more like traits to me.

[@fabianauer1986]

Not really. Because a sharp mind requires a lot of work. Hours of learning. We actually have a big problem that too many people are studying. And a fit body is an achievement, you don't get someone to sit around lazily and do nothing.@@slayergut

[@slayergut]

@@fabianauer1986 achievements as in impactful achievements. Nobel prize, winning awards, doing well in business or work, founding a meaningful non profit org etc. The fact that you struggle to understand this distinction as a westerner, or that you may find those things not very important is my point.

[@fabianauer1986]

@@slayergut I understand what you mean, I just think that these two things are also an achievement. Aggression or arrogance are traits. I agree. To be honest, I don't understand why people in America are sometimes seen as positive to not keep their negative thoughts to themselves.You shouldnt express everything just because you have the right to. However, there is a good reason why a well-trained body is an achievement. Because it inspires your descendants. Your sons and daughters. Children imitate you as their father. And overweight/lazy fathers in particular indoctrinate the child that being lazy is okay. And if the father sees that the father does something sporty every day, he will play video games for fewer hours and work on something. Because sport is productivity, so just by observing it, a kid will work more for the future. It is our job as men to make room for the future, and if sport (which it does) inspires your offspring positively then it is very much an achievement.

[@cloudcat0]

Your videos are excellent. Thorough research, important historical context, necessary nuance, poignant message, and calm delivery. Amazing job! 👏🏼

[@aespaevolution2862]

Why I don't understand is why a lot of men in the comments seem to rubbed the wrong way and extremely affected that these types of "feminine" or unconventionally masculine men are receiving a lot of attention from women. Some of these comments sound so bitter like they are projecting something or it personally affects them. Like if you don't get it because you're not attracted to it, move on.

[@wilhelmu]

the traditional ideal man is a muscular dude who doesn't take shit from no one, and has a harem of bitches thirsting for him. They are mad that they won't get the harem, they are confused that dudes who don't look like roid rage body builders are more popular with women.

[@Solararisa]

Definitely insecurity, some men can't fathom what they think SHOULD be attractive to women, isn't actually always attractive to women.

[@francoisdaureville323]

​@@Solararisamost women in the West are attracted to masculine men thats not the problem tho

[@user-bw4jm1bv1i]

My hot take: The words and ideas of masculine and feminine are bs. My anecdotal evidence, on this take: I grew up in a rugged rural area and wasn't really considered manly. I was probably considered masculine, but no where near as much as my peers and probably only due to my natural physique, not much else. Then I moved to a highly urbanised country in my 20s and was then considered highly masculine. I had a few close friends who had the same thing happen to them. This just made apparent, what I had already kind of guessed, that it's ultimately not important, people will like you for you.

[@mshepard2264]

So I am of European descent and I was working in central america doing manual labor with this Philippino guy and its almost 100 degrees so we arent wearing shirts. We are both fairly fit but the other guy is older in better shape and “prettier”. So im Like jesus do you shave your chest and he is like : Naw son hair doest grow on steel ! It was the best answer ever! I think most of this femininity thing is just that in the west people associate being hairy with masculinity. Asian men just are not very hairy.

[@photon4076]

The thing is, there is a huge anxiety about masculinity in the West as well, and in both cases the primary worry is the same: that men aren't tough enough. At the same time, at least in my impression, media has focussed on "action hero masculinity" much more than it did before. I think China's ban on effiminate men is just following a global trend here, but because of the way the Chinese government works it becomes actual policy instead of staying a cultural undercurrent in some sections of the population. If I were to speculate my guess would be the following reasons: 1. Media producers have noticed that high emotions make a product sell better, leading to an emphasis on both the "action hero masculinity" and the "pretty men masculinity", for different target audiences. Intellect or moral virtues on the other hand don't strike emotions to the same extend, so they are less emphasized. (Even though it was a masculine ideal in the past in both Europe and Asia.) 2. This leaves less options for average men to actually achieve these ideals, leading to anxiety about their masculinity. 3. The major powers of the world haven't had big successful wars in the last decades, which leaves their citizens uncertain of their military strength. This combined with 2. leads to the idea that men need to be made tough again.

[@Tigo625]

I think almost everyone here misses the point that masculinity is primarily a biological thing. Men's testosterone almost worldwide HAS dropped. The need for masculinity is biological, not cultural. Social constructionists are weird.

[@winnieouyang7802]

Yep totally agree! appearance is how to catch people’s attention first, so intellect usually comes second. And with advance technology, you dont really need to know how to fix or build things now, just buy a new one! Or call someone else to fix it! There definitely is a lot of anxiety about masculinity here in the US. Everyone’s so focused on being tough, getting ready to fight someone everyday, stay strapped, every man for himself, etc. I find it out funny how every dude now is working out, mainly to look big. (although whether they can actually fight or not is a different story lol) Making sound arguments and talking things out is not necessary, just fight it out and whoever wins is right🤷‍♀️😂 you got a phd? Cool, but do you look big, can you fight? That just seems like the way people think now lol I also wanna say in a way some intellect is kind of a given, in the sense that you graduated from at least high school. And College is already highly marketed, very common so getting buff is just and addition to make you seem more attractive.

[@LiamNein]

How refreshing and what a rare find on KZbin which explains East Asian culture with such thorough details! Would just like to chime in on the Confucius’ ideal of a student, which rather than prioritizing and emphasizing on the Wen, it embodies both Wen and Wu since his curriculum is about all of the Six Arts. So glad KZbin’s algorithm recommended your channel, can’t wait to watch more in the future.

[@1chibanKasuga]

she described han china now whole east asia

[@LiamNein]

Chinese Han culture has been influencing the Eastern Asia if not the general greater Asian area since around 200BC until the 1900s; it has shaped and formed the foundation of what has become the general East Asian culture we know today. East Asian countries are different and to some degree unique to their own, but similar enough to westerners who are oblivious to the nuances. Denying that would be the same as denying modern pop culture is basically American culture.@@1chibanKasuga

[@1chibanKasuga]

@LiamNein i know, but she mostly only describes han china in this video

[@twinningintokyo5487]

What's interesting is when I first started dating my Asian husband people would mock me (even though he's hot) simply because he was Asian (cue the sordid jokes) and the men not viewed as masculine YET now the pendulum has well and truly swung the other way and now Asian men are being seen as desirable because of the perceived "strong softness" i.e softness with an edge as women get wary of western men and get caught up in K-pop and dramas 😅

[@RazorRamonMachismo]

ok who's idea was it to have 2 kids in japan how you keeping up with cram schools??

[@twinningintokyo5487]

@@RazorRamonMachismo mine we go back and forth to UK but the safety of Japan is unparalleled. You can leave an iPhone on a table to reserve the table whilst getting up to get a fast food meall. Kids can walk home safely for the most part it's like a Goonies film childhood of bikes, staying out until the lights come on and neighbours knowing each other. With cram schools I think it's a balance. You can get swept up in thinking you have to be the perfect mum and have perfect children but the kids are "hafu" so they have less pressure to conform and people are more patient for the most part. They do go to KUMON but the mindset is the kids are used to study as they do it from the jump. So it's not such a dramatic shift as it might be studying hard later in life. Sadly or not it's a norm. However, Japanese kids do play outside more than in London in my opinion. If this all makes sense 😜

[@RazorRamonMachismo]

@@twinningintokyo5487 hafu? sounds like the n-word lol It is better if they study a lot and get married early lol the things are getting darker and hopefully your son does not become a hikikomori

[@chumbucket6184]

I think you meant black men, not western men.

[@twinningintokyo5487]

@@chumbucket6184 didn't mention Black men at all. I said I was teased for having an Asian husband and now having an Asian husband because of BTS, KPOP Anime etc is seen as super cool 😎

[@TANQ2]

Thank you for this video! China's concept of masculinity, embodied by the Scholar is extremely charming and has surely helped me to gain a better understanding of Chinese culture. Delving deeply into these cultural differences is extremely fascinating. I’m from Italy, and in my country, as well as in the general Mediterranean area, the myth of the "macho man" is still steady and granitic, but from my viewpoint, Asia’s influnce has somewhat mitigated it, in recent years. The criticism towards young men is, sadly, a generational cycle and happens everywhere. For instance, The Måneskin received many disagreement for their androgynous outfits and their detachment from ante-diluvian models of masculinity, even from members of the political class. The global concept of masculinity is surely poised to be an epocal issue in the future.

[@fedoralord3607]

You don't disappoint. I'm looking forward for your next video!

[@yoshilovesyoshi]

I think that currently, it's not necessarily that men are becoming more "feminine," but are being encouraged to be more balanced. In Asia especially, but also in the west, there is a desire for clarity in differences and so the cultures lean very heavily into one type or another, men should = Masculinity/Yang(proactive) energy while women should = Femininity/Yin(reactive) energy. However my father used to show me the Taoist Onmyo symbol and say "you can see that within Yang, there is Yin, and within Yin, there is Yang. Therefore within men, usually there is more Yang, but still there is Yin latent in them, and the same for women." I think when he said that he was talking about "masculinity" and "femininity" as we see them socially and culturally, men are both masculine and feminine, women also are both masculine and feminine. The reason why I say this is that there is also a drive for women to be "more masculine," especially in the West, but usually they tend to inherit the more toxic traits of masculinity than the productive ones. So I think it's not necessarily that men in the East are "more feminine," but that they are more balanced and well rounded. Just because he has a pretty face does not mean he cannot also work hard for his family and pay the bills. So I think the direction of the Chinese government is kind of misguided, but well-meaning. I think what they could do better is show that even if you're a pretty boy, you can still serve your country and take care of your wife and children. Perhaps then Chinese boys might be more inspired to uphold both the traditional Wen and Wu, and the more modern aspects of masculinity. Edit: Imagine seeing precious Lu Han in a Three Kingdoms era military uniform, or even a modern CCP uniform. I think that would help the Chinese Govt. connect more to the desires of it's people than anything else.

[@donaldhysa4836]

Heretic nonsense brother. The world has no patience for weak femine men. These women may say otherwise but look at who they are sleeping with. That is the only thing that truly shows who they really prefer

[@whiteshark450]

Another incredibly well written video. It's crazy how i lived through this without ever thinking about it. As a chinese who grew up in a white neighbor in canada. I played hockey and i was incredibly rough on how i acted since everyone around me acted the same way. I remember watching The predator by Arnold and i thought that was what a man should look like. Naturally, I went to the gym and got pretty muscular. Then i went to hong kong/china and that was a huge cultural shock. Men were slimmer and some of them had those korean cuts. Some even wore make up and for a time i thought they were bunch of Sis and it wasn't normal. Point is, i guess the entourage and place really affects how 1 culture is viewed.

[@gordonliu3972]

Well said. I grew up idolizing Arnold, lifting weights and playing rough sports that all my male friends engaged in. I moved to Southeast Asia after school and was similarly shocked at how different men there were. The women at work constantly pestered me to shave my beard. I ended up shaving my beard and conforming a bit to the social standards there. I feel like I am a more balanced man now because of it.

[@wheresmyeyebrow1608]

@@gordonliu3972 "The women at work constantly pestered me to shave my beard" Hahaha nooooooo

[@littlebluefishy]

I lived in Hong Kong for the past 18 years. I’m actually shock to hear you say men wear make up cause I barely see one growing up there. But I’m not sure about China’s young men, I haven’t been there a lot.

[@diegoaespitia]

a traditional Chinese masculine man is one who goes out drinking, hooks up with other women tho he's married and chain smokes. prob has a big belly. trust me. masculinity is the same everywhere.

[@hallooos7585]

@@littlebluefishy Not heavy makeup but soft makeup

[@sweetmimi286]

As a heterosexual latina woman, I endured a great part of my youth thinking that I wasn't attracted to men. At the same time, I never felt attracted, fell in love or wanted to date women. Later I understood that the representation of the men in latin america (and also north america) was responsible for that thinking. The super strong, bulk, sweaty and dirty man isn’t sexy to me. This very restrictive and narrow perspective about men’s personality and behavior that is imposed to consider these men as the "real men" it’s quite boring and uninteresting to me, it seems like every man is almost the same. It also kills so many possibilities of individuality, uniqueness and self expression. After being exposed to other perspectives about manhood I discovered I’m attracted to men so much more than I thought.

[@lAsteriosl]

In my country, we call it “Young girl's obsession” Because precisely young girls (16-20, sometimes even up to 25) love this type of feminine boys. But as soon as they approach their full adulthood, their preferences towards men are drastically changes.

[@newsionl6092]

Same in China.

[@yoshilovesyoshi]

That might also be due to a generational gap in standards due to the different media consumed during each generation, it doesn't necessarily mean that when this generation "grows up," they will prefer more masculine/Yang-type men.

[@dulcemaria4813]

I hope mine doesn't 😭

[@shezyam460]

@@yoshilovesyoshi maybe, but what women are attracted to is prone to all sorts of influences other than social pressure. for example, birth control seems to have big effects on what women find attractive. To put it concisely, women on birth control tend to favor "softer", more nurturing partners, while women off birth control tend to favor more traditionally masculine figures. it makes sense that young girls who aren't old enough to have partners tend to like the stereotypical boy band look, while growing out of it when they become old enough to have children etc etc.

[@enterurnamehere27]

@@shezyam460 that being said, wdym by "traditionally more masculine" in the first place, since this video show us that different cultural traditions have different view of what constitutes "masculinity" in the first place

[@xuanyu7461]

Thank you for being a voice representing Chinese people (especially the Chinese diaspora like myself)!

[@alantruong537]

this video is really helping guide me to define my idea of my own masculinity in a way that is more relevant to me than what i knew growing up and what i see in social media.

[@V0NRH1NE]

The pinnacle if masculinity to me as a western man, is to have an all encompassing knowledge of yourself, know yourself in and out. Accept your flaws, accept what you excel at. Be ultimately self-conscious and strive to be the best variant of yourself you can imagine. Strong of body and mind, of Heart, and Soul. But don’t allow outside forces including me, to define your masculinity for you, define it yourself.

[@Jg20-n9x]

Your argumentation is so on point, I'm so amazed by your research, structure and the whole video!!! Thank you for this gem of essay

[@SeoWoojin55]

I found it interesting seeing this in a Chinese perspective (though those were Korean idols in the thumbnail) and I really like how you did this video. I was aware of how masculinity is in Korea because of its pop culture omnipresence globally but did not know too much about how masculinity is viewed in China and Japan. Glad I was able to know these insights from your perspective as a Chinese person.

[@tarostartic8833]

idk if the thumbnail has changed since this comment was posted and I understand the middle figure is a kpop idol (his name has gone over my head atm, apologies) but righter most (Cai Xukun/蔡徐坤) is actually a cpop idol ^^ The leftmost image is also a spinoff artwork for a Chinese historical drama starring Chinese actors. Just wanted to clarify!

[@pengu8734]

Notice, that is *her* perspective, and read her citations, it's completely descended from the opinion of a single scholar in the University of Hong Kong, this should raise some suspicion to the careful bunch. As Chinese I can tell you she is completely bollocks

[@hanguortadie380]

The thumbnails are mostly of China, and the historical figures referenced are also Chinese

[@isadora6092]

@@pengu8734 then i guess more chinese schollars should make video essays and present their own perspectives :)

[@user-yc8wt5rn6z]

@@tarostartic8833 The idol in the left is Cha Eunwoo from Astro :)

[@-haclong2366]

07:12 "Women joined the workforce" false claim, Chinese women weren't excluded from the workforce and were in fact already half of the workforce. You might be forgetting that China was a Communist country before this as well. In fact, "women joining the workforce" is largely a myth in the West as well where most poor women already worked full-time, but that is a whole other discussion.

[@IR-xy3ij]

You’re very right about this part of history that most just conveniently ignored lmao. Women in all countries worked incredibly hard in all eras of human history.

[@mariumbaig2992]

so excited seeing these topics covered on youtube! well done

[@aiyuki4681]

Since I have also recently been digging into this topic, I have already familiarized myself with most of what you have said and the articles mentioned. When I was reading about the documentary ''The Proposal to Prevent the Feminization of Male Adolescents,'' which, among other things, argued that China should hire more male teachers and ''vigorously develop'' sports like soccer to ''cultivate students' masculinity,'' I came across this excellent comment: Playing soccer makes you better at playing soccer over time. It doesn't make you better at dominating foreigners or waging wars - and why do you want to do that anyway? And, well, that's the point, the country needs more manly men who can be good soldiers, but why do you need soldiers? Besides, nowadays weapons are so developed that you don't need to be very muscular and strong, good aim and precision are more important. And not to mention that fighting with human resources is only one option for fighting. just let people live their lives

[@dun7308]

Okay if weapons are so advance why do you need men to defend or take inches of territory like what is happening in the Ukraine war? Why are they still fighting like it was in the Korean War? Where dug in trenches and smart cover and concealment makes it hard for even the most lethal bombs to dislodge your position, what you are saying is completely false, not only that, you need men to advance other fields like the production economy, what that means is the construction, shipbuilding engineering and agriculture industry, all vital industries for survival that attracts masculine traits, these flower boys only distort the economy and turn a country lazy, because imagine if China is made up of 20% flower boys, which tjhhankfully it is not, it is just the mostly celebrities doing these type of things, they will be obsessed with doing their makeup over advancing the productive side of the economy, advancing innovation, in the end it will be bad for everyone.

[@TheAxeMixa]

@@dun7308 The war in ukraine is being fought like the korean war because Russia is a deeply corrupt mafia state ran by complete idiots who embezzled all their military resources and showed the whole world just how weak they really were. Russia isn't failing because it's full of "weak" effeminite men, it's failing because it a top heavy fascist state run by men who put their own interest before the interest of the public. Hmm now what country does that remind me of (hint: it begins with "P" and ends with "eople's Republic of China".

[@anon2427]

I can see why you wouldn’t understand this from a woman’s perspective, and that is completely fine. Nothing wrong with it. Playing competitive sports in general teaches calculated aggression, tactics, strategy, that everyone has a role to play, and teamwork in many cases. Men sharpen and strengthen themselves through struggle and competition like a knife on a grindstone. Men who never compete often become weak willed and undisciplined. There is an urge inside many men to win and dominate and there is not a single thing wrong with that. I hope I helped and I did not mean to come off as rude. I’ve spent many hours discussing masculinity and femininity with my lady and what roles we play and how we can compliment each other. There isn’t a single thing in nature more harmonious than a husband and wife playing complementary roles, supporting each other, and working as a team. It’s a beautiful thing

[@anon2427]

Also I am sorry but your comment about physical fitness not being relevant is plain wrong. *Technique* is what is becoming irrelevant with modern wars. Soldiers may have to force march 50 miles in a single day and do it on 3 hours of sleep. Physical conditioning is absolutely important for any soldier. It’s important for any man too, as the most common form of self development and self expression there ever was. Personally I do martial arts and it develops your mind and soul alongside your body. Weight training and ruck marches are the same, even if they focus less on the soul and mind.

[@ClintonFD]

What I found interesting about the portrayal of soccer players as masculine is that where I grew up, soccer is considered feminine. Americans have American football which is considered to be the ideal masculine sport here and soccer is played by more feminine men and women. I was surprised to learn how much of the rest of the world feels about the sport once I became a bit more worldly.

[@angel1452678]

Your vids are really good! I really love how you went into Chinese history and also include viewer comments! I truly am so utterly impressed at the quality of your videos. 💕 can't wait for the next one!

[@sareneve1626]

this video was so well done! thank you for exploring this topic. when i heard about the ban i was super disappointed--it's hard not to view it as a huge step back. as a feminist, i want freedom of gender expression for everyone. i often feel like women are allowed more expressive freedom when it comes to gender because of misogyny, because we're allowed and even encouraged to be more masculine. however, i must add that we often get made fun of either way: if we're too feminine, we're high maintenance, and if we're too masculine then we're pick me's, but we have to one or the other or optimally, both somehow. men on the other hand--again, because of misogyny--are discouraged from embracing femininity. the only way in which men are allowed to interact with femininity is when they are conquering it, either by putting down men that seem--to western ideals--more "feminine," or by physically dominating women. it's really frustrating that we're in the 21st century and still can't let people decide for themselves what being of a certain gender means for them and how they should express that instead of beating everyone with the rod of patriarchy, western masculine ideals, and misogyny. smh. anyway

[@sareneve1626]

@@VictoriousJia ...ok lol

[@darthvadeth6290]

This is a terrible take 🤣 As an economist, it's pretty clear what she's saying makes absolutely no objective sense, but it is purely based on her personal, heavily biased interpretation. The fundamental purpose of "masculinity" is to attract mates. And the dating/marriage market, which is basically a micro-economy, has already proved you wrong after generations of testing. There is a reason Asian women overwhelmingly prefer white men - it's because white men are more masculine than Asian men. She can deny it, and say "we prefer more effeminate men", but statistics show that when it comes to decision time, Asian women vote (with their action) against everything she is saying here, and prefer more masculine men over effeminate men.

[@sareneve1626]

@@darthvadeth6290 with all due respect (which may very well be none, i don't know you) i feel the same way about your take. 🤷‍♀we live in different realities my friend. sure, maybe you think the point of "masculinity" is to attract mates. maybe that's what it was in the beginning? i don't care. what i know is that over time, it has evolved socially into something far uglier, at women's expense. asian men are less "masculine" according to what standard? what makes the western standard of masculinity the go-to? what gives you, a (presumably) western white man, the right to use the western masculine ideal as a standard by which to measure other men's masculinity? ...nothing really, but i'm sensing some entitlement and cultural imperialism. which is also part of why -some- asian women do prefer white men--the colonized have been taught that whiteness is more desirable, more attractive. just as the colonized are now being taught that western standards of masculinity are also somehow superior to traditional cultural standards. ...i say all of this not to start an argument. you're shaking your head and scoffing. i just wanted to tell you that if mine is a terrible take, so is yours, partially because i'm an internet asshole and you asked for it, and partially because there is no one way to look at things. neither of us is going to learn anything from this interaction. you're going to go back to leaving comments to tell silly little girls they're wrong, i'm going to go back to thinking men are pricks because that's what experience as taught me, you will continue to have no respect for my opinion, i will continue to have no respect for yours, but i will maintain that you started it 🤪. i know you're itching to tell me i'm wrong again--and if you aren't and have decided i'm not worth it, give yourself a pat on the back. (good boy!) feel satisfied in that. hell, feel smug, even. i dare you not to respond. all of the above is just the view from my end of things, and i don't feel the need to justify the way i think to people like you anymore 🤷‍♀ (even if you are an ✨economist✨)

[@rene3759]

@@VictoriousJia nope not really because nothing will make strong men dissapear. also there are also strong women who can and are willing to do terrible things. your mind is like a child we are human beigs it's high time for us to evolve past the idiotic violence and use our strongest attribute our brains to solve issues. also we also have a problem of too many men who are doing terrible things to men, women and children. we need intelligent, diplomatic, problem solving leaders that are strong not brainless animals.

[@rene3759]

@@darthvadeth6290 ironic how you are also making heavily biased interpretation. there are many aspects you are missing in your racist analysis of the dating market. also attracting mates is an aspect not a fundamental aspect as there are many traits to masculinity that are need not only for the indivisuals but also their partner(s), the offspring and communities well being. you also forget that the dating market has been not been pure and natural ever since fathers started selling their daughters to the highest bidder. in nature females choose thos who are most suited them in tempraments, child rareing, gathering resources and fighting and who can cooperate with them well and are also biologically suited to them (ie through scent even humans can tell who suits them best) but due to greed and capitalism bleeding into culture peoples ideals of a suited partner has been distorted (unfortunalty peer pressure is a powerful instinct) that people even go after mates that they deep down know/instictivley know are not suited to them (to please parents, out of desparation for money, fame or worse because they get manipulated). have you ever thought about how some asian women choose western men because they could be less patriarchial then asian men or because they want to leave the country, or because due to colonialism and racism white men are seen as a superior standard and so marry them for status? if we are talking about masculinity purely physically and based on who is bigger and has more muscles and is stronger African men would be superior to white men something even white men have admitted to. also with effeminate alot of women mean a man that is kind, intelligent, gentlman, good person and a caring partner. whis is much more preferable to a much man irregardless to how now the gentle man or macho man look like. because there are muscular "soft boi's" and thin aggressive guys.

[@1eyeddevil929]

Y'know this is kinda like the old toku shows I've seen! From the 70s, we have Fujioka Hiroshi as Kamen Rider 1 and so on. But since the 2000s, Toei has casted Odagiri Jo for Kamen Rider Kuuga, the franchise gathered more views from Mothers and their kids. This is because "Younger men has attracted more viewership". This is called the 'Jo Odagiri effect', which caused younger actors to be in the franchise

[@luin6788]

thank you for really getting into the history of it all! Something that stuck with me was this idea of cross cultural shifts in masculinity. Kpop is more popular than ever now in the US, and as a Chinese American man, I see most of us (read: asian americans) have adopted it as a common cultural language. my "s** appeal" nowadays is intrinsically tied to depictions in asian boy groups. It was an uncomfortable shift growing up. A lot of asian guys I know went from effectively desexualized non-entities to dressing and acting like the idols we were seeing, for the first time finding themselves desirable in the way racism+trad masc values hadn't allowed just a decade ago. I found, though, it was all surface level. Many of the damaging ideals of toxic masculinity remained. You measure yourself via body count, you avoid vulnerability, you view women as s** objects/an other. we're being told that being attractive and charismatic is more important than doing to hard work of genuinely becoming a better person. Because of this, a lot of the implications of what was happening went unexamined by asian guys, I think. Like for the first time, we were being fetishized by non-east asians, but being viewed as attractive at all felt like all that we cared about. Theres so little conversation about how unattainable or dehumanizing it can be to objectified, despite our east asian sisters literally facing the worst of it in the us. the first time i learned what "yellow fever" I was barely 15. A white senior girl expressed sexual interest in me expressly bc of my race, and the fact i passed for a korean. i remember the discomfort, and not knowing how to even process it. I remember thinking i should just lean into it, just because of how intoxicating the idea of being desired felt. i still am recovering from what those following years did to my selfimage. i worry that in our haste to widen our ideas of what men are allowed to be (good) and to remove the stereotypes desexualizing asian men in the west (good), we've also introduced a new, toxic set of standards for young boys, who have every incentive under toxic masculinity to not examine these standards critically until irreparable damage is done- to themselves and the people around them.

[@NessaNo-j5v]

Honestly, your first video about soft power blew me away in how you presented your aguments and discussed your ideas. I am so glad I turned on the notifications for your channel, because this one is just as interesting. I am looking forward to your next upload.

[@minty_macaron]

This is my favorite channel so far.

[@cyrielle8803]

Another great video! I must say though how ironic the comment on Mbappé was from my pov as a black woman because in the black community, kylian is seen as soft cause he’s lighter. Crazy how different beauty standards are seen from another lens

[@fairlymoon448]

You're totally a wangxian shipper aren't you? This has been fascinating and informative. Am I salty Wang Yibo has stopped wearing jewellery on live television? Yes yes I am. I hope they'll Chill on this soon so they can please release the rest of all those BL dramas that are already finished! (and in the works!) Also fellow aussie hiiiiii

[@araschanne1]

wangxian 👉👈🥺❤

[@hi-there-]

@@ManasamafanI won’t allow it to die. As long as I’m alive, they will always have at least 1 fan 😂

[@lumityviktuuristanartist4100]

​@Manasamafan omg , I joined the fandom last year yet felt so alone , I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels this way 😅 , I love wangxian and I have the fattest crush on lan zhan ❤

[@odeliamili7129]

​@@Manasamafan Not really. The WangXian fandom isn't dying. They're still mostly active on Twitter

[@oliverlarosa8046]

I naturally fall into that western macho man aesthetic to some extent (6' 3", thick body hair, been growing beards since the age of 12), and I have to put in a fair bit of extra effort to not come off as intimidating to people. In that respect, I kind of envy these softer takes on masculinity. My nerdy and often excessively formal mannerisms would also seem far less out of place That said, I'm comfortable enough with my body, but it is interesting to consider that perspective

[@Cateater123]

Oliver my dude don't be insecure at all , once i talked to a gay man he told me mascular look is very good but the problem with modern men is that they flex it in a dangerous way rather than in a sensual way . And this makes a lot of sense . I think our culture have demonized Masculinity and have manipulated men as well to act like macho which most men dont want . Most of us just want to chill .

[@worldview730]

What about brains, don't they count?

[@marvin2678]

its sad that people judge on and me based on our body..esapcially progressie people

[@worldview730]

That's the good & evil of life, focus on the good though@@marvin2678

[@francislucero1531]

I am neither masculine nor feminine. I only consider that repressing emotions is stupid. What follows is crying because a man is wrong? Do you have to smoke all the shit for being a man?

[@akiltircuit7515]

Love your content. As a Black American it’s interesting to get an inside look into cultural phenomenon within different communities/peoples. Your style reminds me of “Thestoryteller”.

[@ZoddVance]

I love your channel and your videos so far! Its great to see someone exploring modern Chinese culture and media in these type of video essays for Western audiences, its quite rare and you have such concise and organized intelligence in all of your thoughts and delivery. Keep it up, I love your content.

[@zhiwang6529]

best explainer on these topics I've ever seen, it's just so intelligent and clear!

[@Fei-L15]

Its interesting to hear your opinion on chinese masculinity . When i first heard of the ban of China on " small fresh meat " . The thought went through my head about why soft male becomes so famous in China is probably because of the imbalance in gender . Since the influence of kpop idols , chinese female had started to like men with a more feminine look . With the gender imbalance which the number of males is way higher than the females add up to it . It is really hard to find a partner for chinese men , because of that , chinese men find themselves in a position that they have to adapt to the females standards on how good looking males need to be . Also the reason for male masculinity in the past where men have to be muscular is for them to protect , fighting , hunting , ... Womens in the past find these traits in men as more priority. But in modern time , womens , instead of relying on men's protection , they are more willing to protect themselves . Another thing is about how chinese women got too many options on which men they can choose to be their partner . China is a country that to these days still highly value patriarchy , peoples still see them as a country where female social status is still lower than male . But actually , the scale is shifting towards womens ( especially in urban areas ) . And with the help of social media , where a portion of rich , beautiful and well educated female influencer , spread the idea that girls should choose soft man as their partner , so that female can be on the dominant side ( cause these girls have everthing , money , appearance , good jobs , rich parents , ect , ... They find the need to find men that adore them and treat them like a princess , not someone ordering them around ) . So this lead to other female , who wants to be like these influencer , copying their looks , lifestyle , fashion and even partner standard . Meanwhile in Korea , where kpop started , women also like soft looking men better . But because Korea is still a highly patriarchy country , women is still be seen as lower in social status , Korean men actractive traits are a pretty face with smooth skin and a muscular body ( the chinese men is skinny body , there is a incident before the ban of the Chinese gorvenment where a Chinese idol got criticised by his fans because he was trying to train his muscle ) Ps : sorry for my grammar , English is not my mother language .

[@cmaven4762]

Thanks for sharing your insights with us. Your thoughts very much fit with what I've been observing through Cdrama and other Chinese media representations of current and recent past Chinese culture. I'm very interested to see how the current restrictions on actors/influencers' appearance will impact next year's male "look".

[@Hollywood_without_redheads]

It's ridiculous, most countries in the world, women live in modern society, and these countries rely on men to maintain the border, rely on men to maintain social stability, rely on men to build cities, rely on men to maintain energy and food supply, in fact this Women in the world have always lived in countries protected by men. It's just that women now regard these as evil, and can't see what men have done for society, indulging in the garden of idealism.

[@Hollywood_without_redheads]

If you really want a world without men, please leave your country and start from scratch in the virgin jungle. It is entirely up to the women themselves to build their own new country.

[@Hollywood_without_redheads]

Otherwise, everything about you is hypocrisy.

[@cmaven4762]

@@Hollywood_without_redheads This is a nonsense response. At no time did anyone deny that men play roles in society. The whole video is about SHIFTING roles. The comment above [to which your replied] is not negating the role of men in Chinese society but explaining WHY there's been a shift towards a softer vision of manliness. It's pretty obvious to me that Chinese women don't hate men; in fact they seem to love them a lot. If you got triggered by the idea of women taking care of themselves, let's get real; the difference between the bulk of Chinese women throughout their history and Chinese women now is that they've stopped pretending to be dumb and helpless. Your response expresses a bias that is not predicated on fact.

[@kathakailin]

Great video! this takes me back to uni, I once wrote a paper including the Wen Wu concept for my class about masculinity, though I don't remember all the details. I think the idea of different concepts of masculinity has to be spread more. Also I really do not like that in this context the feminine is still viewed as "weak" and negative. Being different doesn't have to mean better or worse, I just hope more people would understand that.

[@piplupz1586]

Interesting to hear an alternate perspective on femnine men. Thank you!

[@blackman7186]

It's very interesting how different cultures have different ideas of masculinity. As for India, we see mustaches and just general facial hair as the main masculine qualities. In the past, having a healthy muscular body that can fight was also seen as masculine due to constant foreign invasions. But nowadays it's just facial hair. As for values, protecting one's family and being its structural pillar as well as bravery are considered masculine.

[@blackman7186]

@@KrustyKrab1166 Well, India is just so diverse there are differences in all states.

[@blackman7186]

@@KrustyKrab1166 Well we can't really do anything about it. It's their freedom to be whatever they want to be. I guess because they have different facial features than us and are similar to East Asia, they relate to Korea more than they relate to the rest of India. But still, most of them are proud to be Indian. I don't particularly see it as a bad thing.

[@BoothTheGrey]

This is sooooooo great - as a german older guy I still can learn so much about chinese (and broader asian) culture. This is so interesting especially with the combination of critical thinking and general ideas and philosophical/sociological approaches that makes me think further. Most content about asian culture I find is unfortunately made by my western fellows (maybe typical algorithm issue). And although I do know that there are several well educated amongst us... I would rather like to learn from people of the specific culture (already found some interesting russian channels... and hope I will find some further african channels). Probably english language makes explanation partly more complicated. But I really appreciate that you put some chinese terms into your explanation. And yeeeeeees.... I admit it... the fact that you are not only very intelligent and eloquent but also very elegant and beautiful has its effect. I cannot deny :) Hope you will create many more interesting videos.

[@fornana]

I love your videos! The topics are so interesting, and the way you approach them super insightful and I was always take something away from it. You don't go for the "easy" or surface level explanations. Looking forward to more videos!

[@--Paws--]

This reminds me of a Chinese lore/legend; the gist of it is: a general (or prince) who wears a mask that makes him look fierce or intimidating since he is so handsome that no one takes him seriously especially the enemy. It's hard to find the story, or what it's called.

[@annoyedbipolar7424]

As a Westerner with not a drop of Asian ancestry, I find it interesting that the tv show 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' (stick with me, I know how this is already sounding) with its conglomeration of mostly east asian cultures, has a character that follows the wen-wu dichotomy really well and in a positive way. I think... like Donny, this is a bit out of my element. (yes, I know this is a bit clunky, but it's the best many of us have to work with and is an incredibly popular show. Enjoy the earlier pun baked into an unrelated reference.) Uncle Iroh, the entire series, is trying to move past his "wu" side as a successful; and brutal general, which ultimately helps kill his son. The most important person in his life. His son dies fighting in the war he's leading, a death that breaks Iroh as he feels responsible for his son's demise. That pain sent him down the path of "wen" where he began to grow mentally and spiritually. He had to learn humility and lessons in wisdom. He only used those lessons to try and help those on a darkened path of pain. He sought knowledge from others, even those he previously considered inferior because of their differing culture but became a far more powerful individual in every way because of those lessons. (sort of a more practical, less dogmatic Yoda... whose human) 'Iroh's Tale of Ba Sing Se' (an anthology episode of the series) shows most of this in 4 and a half minutes which is still good even for those who haven't seen the series. We meet Uncle Iroh after he's finished his arch long ago, but we see him trying to stop his young nephew Zuko from making the same mistakes. He doesn't want to become the fire lord and conqueror for power and wealth. He wants to better the world and make tea, preferably with his words but should the occasion strike, "the Dragon of the West" may reappear when needed. (those who get the reference know how this hopefully; strengthens my argument.) He's someone who I hope, regardless of culture, we could generally consider a good depiction of masculinity and growth.

[@mewmew6158]

This is such an in depth and interesting video! Thank for sharing historical points about masculinity, I hadn't heard of some of these!💙💛

[@NiruReghu]

Banger after banger she does not miss 🔥

[@Richard-tg2lb]

This channel is a gem. Well researched and well spoken on a topic that deserves attention.

[@Another_opinion_]

This video was so informative and well constructed. You've got a sub

[@lockheart619]

One of my fav new KZbinrs! It's refreshing hearing your ideas and analysis on something not talked about a lot.

[@Selfpowered]

I can't find the exact timestamp, but something that I think came up in this video, as well as the Asian beauty standards video is the concept that a female's worth is tied to her looks, so I just wanted to add that the flipside is that a mans worth is often tied to what he can provide. Aside from the obvious impact this can have on self esteem for men who aren't considered successful, it also allowed men who were good providers to get away with toxic behaviour because their worth as a provider was seen as more important than them being a good person.

[@snehajagajith6409]

Omg please don't consider your looks as your worth. Your worth is in who you are.

[@micahsnyder7299]

I think something to notes about the “wen/wu” mentioned is that this concept DOES exist in the west, but in a different form. In the west, the ideal man I not seen purely as cultured, or as macho, but both. In modern media media there is much more emphasis on the macho man, but traditionally the man was seen as a poet AND a warrior. If you looks back at ancient literature you’ll find men like David and Solomon from the Bible, and Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor. These men were kings and warriors, but also poets and philosophers. Men that are only macho were seen as foolish and slow, and men that were only poetic and philosophical were seen as somewhat effeminate. I think the core difference is that in China Wen/Wu are two men, but in the west they are one man that is seen as measured and balanced. That’s not to say the western ideal is better, but that these ideas do actually exist in the west somewhat, but have been lost in the modern consciousness with the growth of modern media and visual idealization over intellectual concepts.

[@peterwang5660]

Actually there’s a phrase to describe certain exceptional people who can do both：文武双全. “Wen Wu Both All”. Androgyny and Beefcakeness going in and out of vogue is universal.

[@chosoistryinghisbest]

that the thing isn't it? how deeply ironic that everyone is chasing this one version of masculinity from the west, and the west is wrong about it's own standard of masculinity. it feels like people nowadays love to conveniently forget and remember parts of the past and the standards made from them. Don't get me wrong, i think the separation of femininity and masculinity are stupid and not real, but if people are going to believe in them anyways, they might as well get the facts right. "men have always been warriors/soldiers/rugged/rough" and yet people have always praised men not only for physical strength but also mental strength. Because if they didn't, why would people not only praise soldiers, but also war generals? Clearly strength and intelligence has always been the standards of masculinity, so it's a wonder of how people even forget

[@riverrants]

As a woman myself I understand that people feel more threatened by more “macho” and masculine men, however I do think that can be a little shortsighted. It’s important to look past the intimidating and strong appearance. A lot of buff men that I have met are complete teddybears. But then again, there’s nothing wrong with wanting a more effeminate and less intimidating looking guy.