AirFrance Pilots SCOLDED BY JFK Controller After causing a Go-Around!

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[@VASAviation]

Air France thinking if they want to visit JFK again this month...

[@ColorNerdChris]

Maybe KJFK isn't for Air France. Someplace with nice long runways, not much traffic, and controllers that drink Sanka would be a better fit. Maybe Bradley is more their speed. Omaha is really nice this time of year. Lots of better options to explore.

[@Rob2]

Air France pilots are not the most popular folks for JFK controllers, arent't they?

[@d0m1nu27]

@@ColorNerdChris Maybe JFK controller should take chill pills and then give planes clearance which won't cause go-around. They asked for Z he gave them Z, then he got mad at them for using Z.

[@PetrolHeadBrasil]

@@d0m1nu27 exactly!

[@SpaceGeek321]

Kennedy Karen strikes again - I thought you had a nice conversation with him Victor? 🤣

[@robertlangham9028]

As a controller, this is just horrific to watch. Our job is to keep everyone safe and manage the runway. Everyone needs to play their part. If AFR asks, "Is Zulu available?" and you tell them it is, you'd better plan for the aircraft coming off there. However, if you've been assessing the spacing and you know that letting them go to Zulu will make things a bit tight, ask/tell them to vacate at an earlier exit or expedite to Zulu. If for performance reasons, they can't vacate earlier, then you definitely start the mental preparations for sending THY around. Warn the THY of a "late landing clearance", oh wait, you've already cleared them to land when they were number 2... Jeez... Well, okay, ask THY to "go around please" - that's nice and positive isn't it?. Then, give THY a heading that puts them quite close to the Silk West on final for 31L. It's okay, you'll outclimb them. Expedite... However, the priority here appears to be getting a phone number and berating AFR, not separating aircraft. Bonus information: Sometimes, aircraft are slow to vacate the runway. As an air traffic controller, you need to be prepared for this.

[@the_bottomfragger]

Interesting to read this. I was actually wondering if it was okay to give a landing clearance before the aircraft in front has even touched down. In any case I wish the controller had to call a number (maybe therapy), because this kind of tone is not professional and I'd argue that it makes the chance for mistakes to happen to him and everyone on the frequency much higher.

[@mio2540]

I think the ATC has good intentions but can't communicate them properly. It's not his fault the tracon loves to squeeze like in sfo. it doesn't matter if he told him to expedite or not. jfk is class b and they have rwy occupancy times.

[@Quotenwagnerianer]

"Warn the THY of a "late landing clearance", oh wait, you've already cleared them to land when they were number 2... Jeez..." That's really something FAA controllers need to stop. Only one clearance to land given at a time and the next one can only be given after the preceding aircraft has left the runway.

[@robertlangham9028]

@the_bottomfragger in my part of the world, if you are number 2,3,4, etc, then you get "Continue approach." You only get landing clearance when you are number 1, the runway is clear or very specific multi-occupancy rules can be met.

[@the_bottomfragger]

@@robertlangham9028 That seems completely logical and safety-oriented to me. No clue why they would do it differently than that.

[@ro-86alkonost78]

KJFK strikes again. Here's what happened to Air France 012: 1. AF012 asked if Z is available for exit then the tower affirmed that it is available despite Turkish 11 is close behind them 2. The ATC gave no instruction to AF to expedite their exit from the runway So why did the tower controller give them possible pilot deviation? What did they deviate from, causing go-around? If the go-around happened because the Turkish 11 wasn't far enough to give Air France 012 time to exit Z without going around, then that's ATC's fault because they should provide adequate traffic separation. The controller blamed Air France for something which is his (controller) fault.

[@thomasg4324]

Except where ATC advised AF12 to expedite clearing the runway.

[@leinonibishop9480]

@@thomasg4324except he never tells them to expedite leaving the runway. After he tells the other plane to go around he then complains to air frans that they are taking too long but still doesn’t tell them to expedite. Then tries to slap them with a pilot deviation from a command he never gave them.

[@ryanjordan1083]

@@thomasg4324 Oh yeah, when was that? lol

[@Rob2]

@@leinonibishop9480 He granted the use of exit Z. He should instead have told them to use exit J and that Z was not available due to another aircraft trailing too close behind, then give AF012 the choice of landing anyway or go around.

[@TheNfsman1234]

@@thomasg4324 so you're not even gonna delete this embarrassing comment huh?....

[@el_quba]

AirFrance pilots should just have the JFK Tower number in their briefing package

[@kaboom9081]

AF pilot" "JFK encore ah sacre bleu!" 😆

[@FrankRuiz66]

IKR..

[@mgking777]

Hahahahah 😂

[@trinity72gp]

Oh dear 🙈

[@AhmedGamal-xd4ll]

😂😂😂😂😂😂 better be on speed dial 😂

[@mohsinkhan-ni3nc]

Air France and JFK... love continues 😂

[@khwaac]

He just wanted her number

[@fabianganz5916]

Air France asks specifically for taxiway Z. This is at the very end of the runway. The probability is very high that Air France will exit there. The runway is 2560 metres long. Inevitably, the AirFrance aircraft will taxi on the runway for a long time. The tower knew about this all along and then gets seriously upset because AirFrance supposedly takes so long?

[@paulflory3532]

" Inevitably, the AirFrance aircraft will taxi on the runway for a long time." Yes if they were taxiing at 10mph, but after all it IS a runway, they could have done a moderate speed rollout and braked to taxi speed at the end, no? Perhaps controller should have mentioned that in giving permission? Or will in the future?

[@Tiger313NL]

I fully agree with @fabianganz5916 's statement

[@marko3xl3]

@@paulflory3532Controller said traffic on 11 mile final. The pilots should know what that means, especially at a busy airport.

[@babygrrlpc5057]

Turkish heavy right behind... think maybe Turkish might also need/want Zulu? Lots of times they land heavies one right after the other. Uh, also, you're at JFK. No dilly-dally! 🙂

[@tommaxwell429]

@@babygrrlpc5057 Is dilly-dally in the FARs? One man's dilly-dally is another man's safe operation. You give the guy Z, you better expect a bit of runway time.

[@zainy11]

That's not a deviation...

[@thomasg4324]

Actually it is. Air France is notorious for "slow walking" intentionally to cause traffic issues when they get their panties in a bunch.

[@jamesbartholomew1481]

No pun intended but this guy seriously needs to relax. He’s going to give himself a heart attack. He gives me Bill Hader’s Brooklyn 99 character vibes.

[@andrewdutton3831]

I agree...there are a host of reasons for Air France to take their time vacating the runway. This will be dismissed by FSDO...it it even gets that far.

[@maurice_walker]

"Ready to copy a number?" "No need, we have you on speed dial."

[@wagmiorngmi]

😆

[@thingsmymacdoes]

this controller seems to be having a hard time keeping things professional.

[@kaamsogrimm]

he does this everyday

[@RadDudesman979]

Looking at Z, I would've maneuvered slowly onto that taxiway as well. That looks like a tight turn, especially for an A350.

[@denniswise1460]

Then why did AF request that exit?

[@r.b.4009]

@@denniswise1460 that would be interesting to know. Maybe some maintenance issue that increased their landing distance?

[@icollectstories5702]

True, but you can hustle down the remaining runway instead of taxiing. I agree there was a problem in communication; at best, you can't expect everyone to realize that "11-mile final" means "expedite" or "Zulu exit" means you will be taxiing on a long section of the runway.

[@r.b.4009]

@@icollectstories5702 the 11miles final was for a different (crossing runway) so no factor herr, and 11 miles is actually pretty relaxing. Other than the 4 miles the Turkish Airlines was.

[@jaysmith1408]

@@icollectstories5702well look at that United 737 stuck in the dirt, they were sending it right up to the end. Proper procedure is to land more or less normally, and expedite taxi to the desired turnoff. An exception would be a high speed turnoff, where you can rollout to the exit, but this isn’t a highspeed.

[@Glofilter]

You should play more of the audio. There's more to this story- they (air france) was not given a possible pilot deviation- the controller's supervisor poo-poo'd that. AF was never told to expedite leaving the runway, and like another poster said- that's a big airplane to make that turn quickly.

[@jbirzer]

Yeah, my reaction was that AF was never told to expedite leaving the runway.

[@Taylexwow]

Controller also never actually gave the number after being told they were ready to copy either

[@Rob2]

@@jbirzer Probably the briefing package for JFK should include, besides the number of the tower, the "please expedite leaving the runway" notice.

[@aviationhobby5383]

If they do not want to expedite, they have the right to do so, the responsible of the safety operation of a plane is the PIC and he decide when and what speed he vacate a runway. Sorry if the ATC use to operate that way but the PIC has all the authority todo what he did. Simple as that.

[@fastflying]

its JFK, and they are not the only "heavy".

[@SM-Flyers]

Tower was adivsed and allowed Air France to exit at Zulu, the tower's bad planning. Not at all AF's fault. They did what they were cleared to do.

[@mattk8810]

The tower already let them know a plane was closing in behind them way at the begining

[@patienceisalpha]

The controller gaslighting until the end. JFK in a nutshell. He did not want to give the number out because it's not looking good for him. Pilot deviation lmao

[@kaamsogrimm]

he does this shit everyday

[@tommaxwell429]

Pilot Deviation? Seriously? What regulation did he violate? What ATC directive did he violate? The Captain has total authority to operate his plane in a manner he deems necessary for safe operation. On the call, I would tell the controller to go pound sand and file a report if he wants to. Maybe he should space his planes with a little more separation. When you try to run everything with a shoe-horn, sometimes the shoe is gonna slip.

[@sx300pilot5]

Exactly. It’s my runway until I clear….

[@uy_spotter]

posible* pilot deviation. they will call and ask why it took them so long to vacate. nothing will happen more than the ATC saying “you gotta clear the runway faster, this is JFK” and thats it. nobody did something wrong.

[@agoogleuser2369]

I would agree that a pilot deviation and a number to call, when they were cleared to vacate at the end of the runway was laughable. However, the Air France crew was landing on one of the busiest airports in the world. It took them forever to vacate the runway, causing another aircraft to go around. Tower guy is to blame. 1. For allowing Air France to exit on Z. 2. For failing to communicate properly and set the expectation for a quick exit off the runway . 3. Not requesting the Turkish aircraft to slow down to their minimum approach speeds. 4. Not paying attention until it was too late to do anything about it, issuing the go around in the first place. Again, the crew should've known better and "helped" everyone around them by quickly exiting the runway. You just don't pull that kind of crap at JFK.

[@r.b.4009]

@@agoogleuser2369 i disagree with point one. Denying an exit taxiway that is open, could lead to stubborn pilots landing long rolling long (difficult ATC could say something against that, answer, oh I didn't put out spoilers quick enough, brakes didn't fully act, whatever excuse), and then request for a 180 and backtrack 😂 But yeah, when you know you've got one 4 miles final, you try to get off quickly. Bad handling from both parties, but definitely no deviation.

[@hagamapama]

Tell the tower to go around,

[@Yo_Its_Matty_ice]

JFK Tower and Air France 012 is the love story I never knew I needed

[@happydan20]

The controller made many mistakes in this one clip. Giving the clearance for zulu without understanding what that would mean. Neglecting to give a landing pilot clear to land without being prompted. Stated they would give number to call and then forgot. This is a person making too many mistakes in such a short window. He is clearly task saturated and this is a disaster in the making.

[@khwaac]

Put pressure on pilots causes mistakes too

[@jimothyGeoffries]

"This is a disaster in the making" - you're 100% right, the controllers are way too overworked, it's another Avianca 52 or USAir 1493 waiting to happen. Unfortunately there's going to have to be a major incident for them to do anything about it.

[@MarcovandenHout]

Also got Silk Way West callsign wrong twice it seems.

[@CapStar362]

i would counter that ATC Knew he messed up deviating him for no reason and that the tapes and a complaint could and most likely would be filed for deviating him for zero infractions.

[@johnthompson5741]

The only thing I would say is he likely gave that landing traffic a clearance already but since he gave them a traffic update they wanted to double check if they were still cleared to land

[@ea7654]

The Angry bird continues to grow his JFK Legacy 😂

[@kaamsogrimm]

😂😂😂😂

[@MrAdolfojaimes]

AF asked if Z was available and there are numerous and valid reasons why AF would have wanted to use the full runway length and vacate at Z, if the spacing was tight, the controller should have requested "Clear RWY no delay" or "Expedite RWY exit".

[@flightTime123]

Exiting at Zulu wasn’t the problem, the problem was they slowed to taxi speed well before exiting the runway. They did not exit as expected.

[@JimNortonsAlcoholism]

@@flightTime123 That's the pilot's prerogative.

[@penguin44ca]

Whomever is on the runway has the runway. Everyone else is irrelevant.

[@JSFGuy]

The madness continues.

[@OneWIngyBoi]

This happens all the time. They stack them in super tight, and hope for the best.

[@Glegh]

JFK, what a surprise

[@thomasg4324]

*JFK is a hectic airspace and hectic airport.....Air France needs to train their pilots better.*

[@iKlempi]

@@thomasg4324 Writing it in bold doesn't make it true.

[@thomasg4324]

@@iKlempi That is true, but the reason is for the writing technique. *Bold* is simply for emphasis. It's common in marketing....and apparently works better than expected. 😁

[@roadrunner6224]

@@thomasg4324 7 US and Istanbul airport have more movements than JFK, but you never hear about them losing their shit and screwing things up on a daily basis

[@thomasg4324]

@@roadrunner6224 Name one of those airports that has anywhere near the amount of aircraft squeezed in/out like JFK airspace does. *This ought to be interesting. You're in a trap now, kiddo.*

[@manatee82140]

US controllers still struggling to understand that separation is NOT the pilot's job

[@CloudCoderChap]

Separation?

[@davidgraham7932]

​@CloudCoderChap He's referring to the distance between landing aircraft. It is the responsibility of ATC to ensure there is enough distance between planes landing on the same runway to avoid go arounds like what happened here.

[@officiallynrgxlr8tr]

@@davidgraham7932 that is not the tower's responsibility, that is the tracon's responsibility. and considering the wake turbulence separation between two heavies is 4 miles, the air france must have been really damn slow.

[@CloudCoderChap]

@@davidgraham7932Thanks for the answer. I am new to these videos so don’t always get all the terminology.

[@JV-uv5zw]

A350 approach speed is really slow and heavy traffic taxy slowly, basic ATC knowledge.

[@romero1337]

The controller got angry at us yesterday for not reading back fast enough because when he gave the clearance to cross 22R, he pronounced the callsign so fast and garbled that it was unreadable and incomprehensible smh.

[@cibularas3485]

Make new video? Why if you can cut and reupoad JFK Controller SUPER ANGRY with AirFrance | "Call the Tower. We'll discuss it"

[@romero1337]

@@cibularas3485 it was 5-10 secs max. Not worth a video

[@darrenhenderson3]

@@romero1337This ATC been featured on this channel 3 times this week alone and 3/4 times it’s a negative circumstance. Maybe this guy should go on a permanent vacation

[@d0m1nu27]

Just average JFK controller

[@JC11411]

Nope this guy needs to be put out to retirement or greener pastures. We had our own back and forth last week with him. For a busy guy he sure has a ton of time to talk crap on the radio

[@kosmamoczek]

This controller should be directing paper planes until they get rid of that attitude.

[@mattk8810]

Bro. The controller let him know there was a plane behind him and he is there taking his time

[@kosmamoczek]

@@mattk8810 I'm not your brother. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@jerem091]

@@mattk8810 He also called Turkish 11 @ 1:10 instead of AF ("traffic on a 11 miles final") and did not correct it (just repeated the info for the right plane). And the next plane had to ask for its landing clearance ...

[@TheFirstConcorde]

The unprofessionalism of a few JFK controllers knows no bounds.

[@zephyrsky__]

They're so aggressive

[@billfly2186]

French vs. New Yorkers, always gonna be fun. They're cut from the same cloth.

[@jessmanouche]

JFK controlers didn't enjoy the opening ceremony

[@hitman_s1]

To be fair, no one did

[@jessmanouche]

🍇

[@Ruka-f7k]

To be fair JFK controllers seems to enjoy nothing

[@MH_1-9-9-6]

It’s the pilots prerogative to operate the aircraft in a safe manor , if ATC doesn’t leave a sufficient gap than that’s their problem

[@BradSeiler]

Possible pilot deviation for taking time to exit the runway??

[@The_Black_Hole]

Lmao this JFK controller is nuts

[@Ojisan642]

Yes how long do they need? JFK is a busy place. Turkish had to execute a go around which creates additional risk for them because Air France was still on the runway.

[@KukosEQ]

This can happen only in USA😂 PD for vacating the runway into taxiway to announce before…😅

[@CarbonatedTurtle]

@@Ojisan642 They need long enough to literally get to the end of the runway. Do you know how slow taxi speed is?

[@kaamsogrimm]

same controller from the aeromexico situation he's like this everyday

[@ardeladimwit]

AirFrance-- Ground please give us a number to report possible contoller deviation-- that's hilarious. AF defiitely, repeatedly asking if Z avaiable for exit so hit up with being late off the runway. Good day all around.

[@michaeleble6879]

That doesn't mean you coast past available exits and slow roll it off at the end. AF taxi's brutally slow compared to other carriers.

[@ardeladimwit]

@@michaeleble6879 such an honor to get trolled

[@giantpickle]

3MIT behind a heavy was pretty tight, an A350 isn't going to exit immediately.

[@CAPFlyer]

3MIT is pretty standard at JFK for one, but also, the pilot should have been aware of the aircraft in trail. Additionally, just because you ask to roll to the end of the runway doesn't mean you can take almost a minute after you get to the end to actually exit the runway (which according to what I've seen anecdotally may have been the case). They were CRAWLING to exit on a taxiway designed to allow decent speed (10+ knots) while exiting the runway.

[@CapStar362]

@@CAPFlyer Zulu is not a high speed turn off, nor is friendly to an A350 making a turn at such speeds. its the PIC's call how to handle his aircraft, not ATC's. this is ATC's fault hands down. and then not giving the number, i guarantee you he deviated him for no reason at all. No "Expedite" order or instruction was given. AF does not need to be aware of aircraft behind him, his request was approved, its ATC 100% that needs to coordinate the aircraft behind them at that point, not AF. Pilot did absolutely nothing wrong.

[@gintautasnik5214]

Yet we had an incident with UA few months ago when they had runway excursion due to taxiing too fast at nearly 90 degree turn like this one lol…

[@challenger2ultralightadventure]

It's not a pilot deviation. The pilots are the only ones who can determine a safe taxi speed for their aircraft. The JFK controller is in the wrong about this.

[@nickmyatt]

definitely not a pilot deviation. air France pilot made it clear what he intended and even cleared it prior. that's on the controller for not ensuring adequate spacing before approving that. that controller just has an attitude and needs to be retrained or in charge of a smaller airport.

[@michaeleble6879]

That doesn't mean you coast past available exits and slow roll it off at the end. AF taxi's brutally slow compared to other carriers.

[@slyguymcgee]

AirFrance just save the JFK tower number at this point.. sheesh.

[@cibularas3485]

Make new video? Why if you can cut and reupoad JFK Controller SUPER ANGRY with AirFrance | "Call the Tower. We'll discuss it"

[@pedrolopesatc6776]

..... I am neither a pilot nor atc,,, just an electrician who loves aviation ... 1 Tail wind (080 5kt) (atc knows it) 2 Heavy 350 ,, small Rway (atc knows it) 3 so, Pilot asks Z exit, to use full lenght (atc not happy with that ,, because Turkish is close,,, but acept it) 4 Z exit is 180 slow curve exit for a 350 Conclusion.... ATC was pushing tin on groung ... didnt work ... ATC big ego spins his frustration on air france Thoughts...... It is much better a turquish Go around (little delay on trafic) ,, then air france burst tire or hot brakes (can cause a closed Rway and 2 hours delay for everybody) cheers

[@Matt-jm8br]

Vasaviation is on a warpath against jfk controllers it seems 😭😭

[@HapyLLIuTeJIb]

They had it coming 🥸

[@davidhandyman7571]

No, JFK just providing the fodder.

[@FlightMate]

That controller sounded like he was looking for a confrontation. I don't know what's going on in JFK. Controllers over there are always a-holes.

[@CapStar362]

except for Kennedy Steve, he was a legendary asshole with humor. these current controllers are just ego chest thumpers... OBEY OR DEVIATE!

[@Haarschmuckfachgeschafttadpole]

A PPD for what? Ridiculous.

[@floydian022]

Tower with a scorned-lover level of pettiness towards AF012 for the past couple of days now. 😂

[@jasonj8632]

Oh look, another aircraft cleared to land before the previous aircraft (also cleared to land) has even touched down. No way that would cause any problems if the previous aircraft needed to stay on the runway for a long time. This way of doing things is asking for a runway collision. One day we’re all going to see the “fatal runway incursion” atc upload and think “well it’s finally happened”.

[@legofreak3204]

btw: it is even more critical if the previous aircraft also does a go-around. Then things can get very tight in the air

[@flythebus]

Controllers should get in a jump seat once a year or so to see from a pilot's perspective what it takes to bring these planes in.

[@XetraRewop]

They used to. Prior to 9/11

[@Boodieman72]

I love the way ATC blames the pilot for something thats ATC's fault.

[@SimNico]

US ATC blaming others for their own mistakes just like every other day 🤷

[@thomasg4324]

Air France is notorious for "slow walking" in busy airports. You are wrong.

[@SimNico]

@@thomasg4324 I fly the A350. The BTV function is set to brake automatically to exit at a given taxiway, it aims for 10 knots just before the exit for non-high speed taxiways. This is why the crew asked if Z was available to exit, they could change the exit set on the BTV to brake for an earlier taxiway. From the moment ATC says it's okay, it's their job to manage. Plus I'm gonna tell you something. Traffic spacing is not the crews' job. Safety is. We can help with traffic management but this is NOT a priority. Some would say it is a mere courtesy. If pilots judge they need to do whatever for safety reasons, including fly or taxi slower, it's their call. It's the job of the ATC to ensure safe traffic flow around the aircraft, not the other way around. But US ATC has long gotten used to not giving a fuck about safe spacing on final by pressuring everyone into visual approaches where it's not their responsibility anymore, so they can blame crews when they screw up.

[@tommaxwell429]

@@thomasg4324 Is "slow walking," your words, a pilot deviation? Last I checked there are no minimum speed signs on the runways or taxiways. Maybe the controllers should know Air France pilots like to taxi slowly and take that into consideration when sequencing planes. I don't know if he actually taxied slower than others. That is speculation. He had a long way to go.

[@hitman_s1]

​@@thomasg4324 Then tower should have anticipated it

[@cheapercharlie]

Here we are again. We might have to do an intervention for Victor to get him out of JFK mode.

[@cibularas3485]

Make new video? Why if you can cut and reupoad JFK Controller SUPER ANGRY with AirFrance | "Call the Tower. We'll discuss it"

[@theaviazone1668]

Wow, This pilot deviation was definitely the least warranted i've ever heard.

[@MrEmejia70]

This whole week has been about this dude lol😂

[@cdhagen]

I'm not sure that all videos are the same controller 🤔 voice sounds different

[@MrPomelo555]

And I think it’s fantastic!!!

[@jibeji]

Until you vacate the runway, the runway is your! It's a sequencing issue... Tower, I have a phone number for you to call

[@slyguymcgee]

JFK... so hot right now!

[@kaamsogrimm]

it's the little teapot controller causing all of this

[@tdj5245]

There may be technical or practical reasons that this couldn't be implemented, but I wonder whether instead of having to provide numbers, the FAA could set up a central single 800 number, and then through a phone tree or operators distribute calls to the appropriate towers. Like, ATC just says "pilot deviation, call JFK tower", pilot dials 1-800-CALLTWR, auto-attendant says "dial in the airport code", "it sounds like you want JFK tower, is that right?" and then forwards the call.

[@matthmatthmatth]

Why?

[@johnthompson5741]

@@matthmatthmatthso the controller doesn’t have to ask the pilots to advise when ready and then the pilots advise they’re ready and then the controllers reads the number and then the pilots readback the number all on frequency. It’s just “call the tower” “Roger”

[@everfabled]

Think that honestly just overcomplicates the whole process.

[@scottydont2549]

JFK is going to have its own channel soon

[@cibularas3485]

Make new video? Why if you can cut and reupoad JFK Controller SUPER ANGRY with AirFrance | "Call the Tower. We'll discuss it"

[@ooke2567]

Been in there a few times after crossing the Atlantic, always feel you have to be on it or it can get messy very quick compared to any other place i've been. if they didn't want AF to taxi via Z, then don't say it's available. It's a tight turn down there, you end up in the grass your licence gets a review from the regulators and Flight ops

[@Trevortedder]

How is that a pilot deviation? Unless they were given and accepted a LAHSO, you have 100% of the runway and any exiting taxiway not closed to your operation. If AF12 stopped maybe, but they didn’t.

[@floatinflyinandfishing]

asked for and was given Z...thats a big ass plane to make that turn...controller caused the separation issue by giving them zulu, not telling them to expedite and giving two aircraft clearance to land...absolutely no pilot deviation...controller is just being a jack ass

[@elcastorgrande]

Bring back Kennedy Steve!

[@gregdildine99]

Sequencing based on hoping and wishing for certain exiting speed was the issue.

[@BrewtownFlyer]

This younger generation of ATC can’t handle the stress??? Bring back Kennedy Steve!!

[@alanpagez]

¿Posible Pilot Deviation? Air France have the right to exit the runway at any speed, there is no deviation. Once again hope FAA take a look of JFK Tower JFK is becoming the most unprofessional thing in North American aviation.

[@TrentEngineFan]

ATC doesn't seem to understand that you can't just whip an enormous A350 around a curve like a formula 1 race car.

[@timothy____1989]

No one talking about JFK landing heavies on rwy 22 with the winds at 080? Granted only 5 kts, but still, JFK should expect long roll outs if your going to land em w/a tailwind

[@sakatan1985]

"Air France 012, advise when you're ready to copy a number." -"Thanks, but we already got one..."

[@beaudure01]

“Yes, yes, it’s-a very nice …”

[@IN10THRC]

​@beaudure01 "I told them we've already got one" *snicker*

[@mikefuquay9903]

More like, possible controller deviation

[@AL-so5tl]

this ATC has to be fired.

[@joekelly7505]

Controllers at JFK must be angry at the French... 😂

[@Pakal77]

He prefer "liberty fries" than "French fries".

[@punkstjimmyF1]

Nah, once cleared to land that runway is theirs until they can safely exit. Pressuring crews to rush to get off the runway will only create problems in the future. If you need the aircraft to expedite vacating then make the request but the pilot is still under no obligation to do it. This controller should be having a word with approach to increase their spacing, not blaming the pilots.

[@EpicFailer]

US controllers are mad at you just because you didn't leave the runway within their arbitrary limits, lmao. If you need a runway cleared fast, don't let the aircraft roll all the way to the end of it and maybe have "expedite" in your vocabulary. Baby rage of giving a phone number is a cherry on top.

[@plainsailing5987]

Some of these controllers wouldn’t last two minutes in a busy European Airport.

[@sanantonio855]

To be fair, they have a lot more traffic than European airports, for fewer controllers. Because they rely heavily on pilots. 2:15 would be unacceptable in Europe.

[@basfinnis]

Not wanting to give JFK ATC anything as I think they're generally gash, but to be fair if Air France would have asked to taxy along the runway at LHR they'd probably not get it. It's tight spacing at JFK as well as LHR.

[@nickgresla234]

had something similar to this happen to me at daytona, was doing pattern work on 7R, I ended up having to go around because the plane in front of me took too long to vacate the runway, at which point the tower controller proceeded to yell at the aircraft in front of me for not expediting off.

[@Andrei_Listopadoff]

He definitely doesn't like dijon mustard and AFR012)

[@DudeYeah-es4bl]

this sounds awfully like the voice of the controller who put that one Aer Lingus flight in a holding pattern west of JFK, instead of letting them fly direct to GREKI, because he disagreed with the pilot about how bad the weather was. anyone know the one i'm talking about? same guy? if it is, he's been a hothead for years.

[@RaymondChing]

This is also AF 012 like the previous video. Must be a weird love story.

[@thomasg4324]

*Hoez mad.*

[@gregoirebaranger1696]

This is (one of) the usual CDG-JFK rotation call signs. There are 6 flights per day according to flightradar: AF002 / AF004 / AF006 / AF008 / AF010 / AF012.

[@Rob2]

@@gregoirebaranger1696 Probably those numbers were used by Concorde before?

[@Nikola16789]

@@Rob2 Only 001 and 002. AFR operated one round trip per day to KJFK

[@Dyson_Cyberdynesystems]

AF012 flights should just have the tower number taped to their panels.

[@Rob2]

I envision a stripe from a Brother labelprinter with the JFK tower number affixed to the instrument panel...

[@PetrolHeadBrasil]

Wait, wait, wait.... problem with AF012, AGAIN!?!?!? LOL!

[@kingkyyz]

ATC is not the king, in this case, 1. the controller had not instructed AF to expedite the taxing and exit the runway. 2. No controller can demand any pilot to compromise safety. And no pilot would compromise safety. ATC can ask airlines' pilots to call ATC, similiarly, airlines can file a complaint to the ATC or FAA. In this case, AF pilots can file a MOR to AF fleet management and AF;s safety committee

[@russell2952]

That's a deviation? They asked to exit at Z and they exited at Z. I'd sure love to be the initial FAA reviewer on this one. I'd start the report, get my templates all set up, and then after a few minutes of listening to the audio I'd have to go back and change all of the titles and other stuff to JFK Tower Deviation.

[@CarbonatedTurtle]

What fucking pilot deviation? They were exiting the runway like they were supposed to and the controller obviously had another plane coming in to land on another runway too early. These JFK controllers are a fucking joke. I'm not a pilot, but I sure as hell don't ever plan on flying into this awful airport as a passenger with the way they've shown how incompetent they are.

[@kaamsogrimm]

same controller from the aeromexico situation he's like this everyday

[@cibularas3485]

Make new video? W hy i f you can cut and reupoad JFK Controller SUPER ANGRY with AirFrance | "Call the Tower. We'll discuss it"

[@zone2Ironman]

Air France could have helped by advising approach to tell tower that they'd need full length for stop. Then they could have adjusted spacing. But knowing approach like I do they'd just regurgitate the legal spacing they have to give and shame the pilot/crew. JFK trying to give a phone number to AF012 here is just dumb. Approach should give more space behind a heavy. If I'm Air France leadership I'd call for a conference right about now with JFK.

[@paulcredmond]

I don't see any deviation here... the controller should have managed spacing better.

[@TCPUDPATM]

Air FrOnce was just having a glass of wine on the runway for a job well done.

[@ghostrider-be9ek]

there is WAY more going on here - JFK is pissed off at AF for some reason, besides this instance

[@framedman]

Pilot deviation for what?! The pilot can take as long as they like to exit the runway at a speed which is safe for the configuration of the aircraft. They asked permission to do so, the controller knew about that. It's not the pilot's fault JFK has tight sequencing with perpendicular runways. They need to demolish it and start again. And get some decent ATC who know how to stay calm under pressure and sequence accordingly. That's the job.

[@sklew]

As far as I'm aware, you own the runway when you're cleared to land. What pilot deviation? There were no instructions to expedite

[@TrainerAQ]

Omg I saw that AirFrance down there as I crossed the runway. I didn't know this happened shortly afterwards

[@rdln9427]

Bad ATC, shame on this guy

[@TheRotorhound]

JFK controller sounds like a NYC taxi driver. Nasty.

[@NREAL01]

JFK and San Francisco are on a roll 😂😂😂..... Seems like funny places to hang out and chill 😅

[@kens249]

JFK tower is out of control.

[@AeroGraphica]

We dont know how slow he was. But a pilot deviation for that, sound a bit crazy ?

[@fhowland]

Yup same rude controller

[@user-zg2ix9xm9n]

no problem at all

[@TormodSteinsholt]

What was that for?? What was he deviated for?

[@jetway756]

What is up with this controller? A deviation for absolutely no reason. The pilot never violated and safety barriers or FARs. Nowhere in the FAR/AIM does it say exit the runway after landing as fast as possible, that’s asking for a potential accident

[@slipperyslope3912]

AF012 is an ongoing saga with JFK.

[@bigphilnyc]

Rough week for Air France 012.

[@mattthompson8487]

This isn’t a deviation. Also the controller should’ve caught on that AF012 wanted to vacate at the end based on their question. Either the controller should’ve informed the pilots to expedite due to the following traffic or resequenced the Turkish aircraft. The scenario is a sequencing issue rather a deviation.

[@TheGeeoff]

For some reason Air France trains their pilots to taxi really slowly. I've notice this before.

[@etops8086]

I will remind people that the PIC of an aircraft and that individual alone is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. If the PIC of the aircraft is cleared to land, and lands their aircraft on the runway to which they are cleared then it is at that airman's sole discretion when and how they will exit the runway. Once you are cleared to land and are on that runway, you own that runway. They can request you exit at a specific intersection but the PIC can respond "unable" and that's the end of the story, it is not even a possible pilot deviation. That AF pilot is responsible for his aircraft and his certificate alone - Turkish is responsible for their own aircraft, and ATC is responsible for safe and effective separation - seems the only failure here was ATC and then they tried to pin it on Air France.

[@CloudCoderChap]

Im new to this stuff but wasn’t it Air France 012 yesterday with the other controller? Do they have the same numbers for flights at the same time each day?

[@VASAviation]

Yes

[@CNT12696]

How the hell is that a pilot deviation? They asked for Z, the controller approved it. Completely on the controller