All the Weird Ways to Adapt Mary Jane

Greg Weisman interview: • Greg Weisman Talks Mar...
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Twitter: / leo4x1
Patreon: / implicitlypretentious
|| CONTENTS ||
0:00 - original mj
0:46 - movie mjs
3:32 - animated mjs
7:53 - videogame mjs
9:27 - mj's legacy
11:49 - credits and Q&A
|| mystery song of the day ||
The faster we're falling, we're stopping and stalling
We're running in circles again
Just as things were looking up, you said it wasn't good enough
But still, we're trying one more time
Maybe we're just trying too hard
When really, it's closer than it is too far
'Cause I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
'Cause I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
Instead of going under
Seems like each time I'm with you, I lose my mind
Because I'm bending over backwards to relate
It's one thing to complain, but when you're driving me insane
Well then, I think it's time that we took a break
Maybe we're just trying too hard
When really, it's closer than it is too far
'Cause I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
'Cause I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
Instead of going under (Instead of going under)
Instead of going under
I can't sit back and wonder why
It took so long for this to die
And I hate it when you fake it
You can't hide it, you might as well embrace it
So believe me, it's not easy
It seems that something's telling me
I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
'Cause I'm in too deep, and I'm trying to keep
Up above in my head, instead of going under
Instead of going under
Instead of going under again
Instead of going under
Instead of going under again
Instead of going under again
Instead of going under again

[@zerotohero1483]

Spectacular Spider-Man still has the best MJ. She’s the one that feels the most like the comic character. Both from the introduction where both Spectacular and Comics present her that the perfect girl for Peter, and how they expand on her relationships with the rest of the cast and Gwen specifically. She has that energy that made her so charming and the sincerity that came from her later and more modern years.

[@andrewadams4815]

94 Mary Jane is the same where feeling like the comic character is concerned and even when she had to be saved she was still more of a character you could like and was more sympathetic and likable than the Raimi version who only borrowed very little from this version.

[@v10fc92]

Yeah imagine if Spectacular hadn’t got cancelled…god i’m sure MJ’s character would have evolved and developed SO well.

[@christopherauzenne5023]

I also really like/appreciate that despite MJ being the definitive spiderman love interest she isn't introduced/treated as a love interest for the majority of the show. she is actually more there to help peter & the others with their relationship problems or personal issues. (the funniest moment for me was during the christmas episode peter was repeatedly being indecisive on whether he should be with gwen or liz but when they both blow him off, MJ comes to him and he starts thinking "wow, maybe MJ could be the one" but then she literally snaps him out of thought and goes "hey peter stop that, that's half your problem right there") her and peter come off as two people you could totally see dating later in life, just not at this current moment

[@andrewadams4815]

@@christopherauzenne5023 94 MJ was also that way for the majority of that show even if Peter wasn’t as distracted between choosing MJ or Felicia she also reminded Peter when he did even though she was less confident and assertive it was not that much and she didn’t become the definite love interest until Felicia finally realized what Morbius became despite Peter trying to warn her earlier and she also was better than the Spectacular version at helping Peter and others where their personal or relationship issues are concerned one because we saw her face her abusive background and came off better for it afterward and we saw her being a helpful friend before she was a love interest while Spectacular showed this too it was always glimpses or in the background so in my opinion 94 Mary Jane was like this too and was better at it than Spectacular Mary Jane because we know more about her as well as it wasn’t ever in the background like it was in Spectacular I don’t think she was a definite love interest for Peter until the third or fifth season (while yeah a water clone but a more helpful supportive person for Peter and her friends and a more definite love interest than Spectacular).

[@zerotohero1483]

@@christopherauzenne5023 same! I’m never a big fan of when they are the go-to relationship right off the bat . Especially in a Spider-Man show where he’s in high school. Let them both grow as people first

[@EnvyOmicron]

It's worth pointing out that the idea for MJ to have had an abusive father isn't something that the Sam Raimi films came up with; it was borrowed from the 80s Spider-Man comics (starting with Amazing Spider-Man #259 iirc). So in a way, it *was* faithful to the source material, just not specifically the Stan Lee era.

[@godmagnus]

Seems like a bad research job.

[@EnvyOmicron]

@@godmagnus Not research, just an unhealthy obsession lol

[@Bonesph]

I have that issue on my wall. The return of the original and Hobgoblin is back!

[@glodeanuandrei400]

@@EnvyOmicron he was probably referring to the author of the video who didnt research enough

[@wickedchild8501]

I thought it originated in the Spider-Man animated series

[@carsenmaxwell3336]

In the comics, Mary Jane did come from an abusive home. In later comics, they expanded on her past by saying her Dad was abusive, and her whole party girl act was an escape

[@donathan2933]

This is true

[@ArthurHILL-xp8bv]

Marvel spider-man animated series season 5 episode 13 Farewell Spiderman Madame Web took the Spider-man to the pink wormhole limbo to finds the real Mary Jane Watson at end of the episode show in January 31,1998.

[@ArthurHILL-xp8bv]

What if the Spiderman found the Mary Jane Watson in the pink wormhole limbo in the pictures again from Peter Parker of the Spider-man in July 21,2012. Spider-man unmasked to the real Mary Jane Watson again in the pink wormhole limbo again. Then the Peter and Mary Jane were happy to see each other again.

[@ArthurHILL-xp8bv]

Marvel spider-man animated series revival changeorg Disney plus signatures 9,757 next goal 10,000. Hope the Marvel spider-man animated series season 6 to continue in the Disney plus again in 2024.

[@matthewwilson3474]

I think Mary Jane from spectacular Spider-Man is my favorite adaptation besides the comics

[@ventusvanitas7544]

Same

[@kyleco9149]

Spectacular MJ is a Homie .

[@ladraodebombonadeagua8339]

The best

[@andrewadams4815]

Yeah if we saw more of her after her debut she’s just a background character and yeah it’s faithful doesn’t mean it works I prefer Mary Jane from spider-man 94 she’s combination of Gwen and MJ from the comics and that’s okay.

[@jalonjones8567]

YES! Only adaptation that feels perfect.

[@dylantennant6594]

I always saw MJ as part of a trinity of sorts. Gwen is represents Peter’s intellectual equal, a woman who can understand Peter’s mind. Felicia represents his power side and the genuial freedom being Spiderman brings. But she also shows the dark side of being Spiderman, she makes Peter forget his responsibility and duty, showing that the dangers of power. But MJ she is normality. She’s down to earth, has normal problems and isn’t super powered (at least originally). Many times, Peter is wishes to be normal, to have a normal life and maybe hang up the suit. That’s why she always slips away in the original comics, because with Peter’s life that is unattainable.

[@Whatrhefuck]

🎯

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

And then there's Chat who's the perfect girlfriend for Spiderman. His best friend and girlfriend. Accepting him both as Peter and Spiderman. With no unnecessary drama or ridiculous twists. Just a wholesome happy relationship.

[@DefinitelyNotAMachineCultist]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Justice for Chat.

[@mayotango1317]

​@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpChat is just MJ with another name.

[@mayotango1317]

Sorry but Gwen is not a smart character, she is just a prom queen.

[@TokuNorth]

We have -Party Girl -Sassy teen -Some girl -Lois Lane

[@DavidSilva-mn4dz]

Party Girl

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

"Mary-Jane is the most powerful anchor that grounds Peter Parker's world" I liked that conclusion, _Spider-man_ has been adapted a lot of times over the decades, and even through some aspect of Peter Parker change in every adaptation, at it's core he's the same dorky young lad, so you need his love interest to be this modern girl (or woman, if your Peter is young asult), a bridge guiding how his unchanging core adapts to the ever-changing moment.

[@Duiker36]

I like that. Peter is the sun, and Mary Jane is the lens.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

Well except it's not true. Why would it be true if you adapt him to the modern world. Mary Jane isn't Mary Jane if she's changed. It's just whatever girl. And I'm not saying that's wrong. But I am pointing that that isn't Mary Jane specifically. It's just a love interest. It's like saying miles morales needs Mary Jane. He doesn't. Pete didn't have Mary Jane before. Like two decades with her being a cast. Sometimes just because something sounds pretty, doesn't make it true. I get maybe you got a powerful reaffirming feeling. But I didn't because I know how much Pete existed without her. And it's fine. It works fine. Michelle Jones isn't Mary Jane. She's a generic 80,90s, and apparently z quirky girl and she works fine too. It's just name recognition.

[@CorbCorbin]

No, that has always been Aunt May. They even make a deal with Mephisto, because even with all he’d done for good, and how long Peter and Mary Jane were kept apart, they still make his 70+ year old Aunt, more important. It’s a terrible comic, and the most hated by fans(usually), as well, but there is truth in it. If it just been Peter making the decision, he would’ve done the same thing. He’s always chosen May.

[@CorbCorbin]

@@DSan-kl2yc I agree. I like those movies, but as Spider-Man stories, they are terrible. It’s like the worst alt universe version of Peter, and everyone else. Flash, Ned, no Harry… No Mary Jane Watson, Betty Brandt, Gwen, etc. No mention of Ben or his parents. And Holland is fun, but he’s just not playing Peter Parker. It’s the writing, and I accept that he’s Spider-Man, but I think they missed an opportunity to make a really good Iron Lad/Iron Man replacement, story. Could’ve even connected him to Kang, etc.

[@jamainegardner4193]

@@CorbCorbin And the fact that OMD is so unpopular yet the ending of Insomniac's Spiderman is widely well received tells me that after a while Mary Jane is meant to replace Aunt May in that role as Peter grows up.

[@RyanChenMusic]

2:03 Interesting commentary on MJ vs Gwen in the Raimi trilogy. What’s funny also is that Kristen Dunst naturally has blonde hair and dyed it red for the role, and Bryce Dallas Howard naturally has red hair and dyed it blonde…

[@dedrik1461]

Oh my gawd 😂😂

[@tomasgomeziglesias6769]

Not to mention the original versions of MJ and Gwen have green and blue eyes respectfully yet Kristen Dunst has blue eyes while Bryce Dallas Howard has hers green.

[@tomasgomeziglesias6769]

And I just happened to see The Amazing Spider-Man on TV and saw that Emma Stone also has green eyes. JAJAJA, what a coincidence.

[@strider117aldo9]

@@tomasgomeziglesias6769 "she was my mj"

[@TheShockVox]

Spectacular is my favorite. Because of the slow burn and the fact she’s not immediately his love interest but there’s clearly something there. Like Greg Weisman said, we know those two are destined, but the goal was to make us love Gwen first just like Peter, so she had a presence in the world BUT wasn’t just there for him.

[@christopherauzenne5023]

yeah, same, I really like how she isn't even really a love interest the first two seasons but more the friend who tries to help peter (and others) through their relationship troubles. she really comes off as someone you could see peter ending up with later in life, just not right now

[@andrewadams4815]

@@christopherauzenne5023 yeah except 94 MJ was like that too the friend who to tries help Peter and others through their relationship troubles. If anything her abusive backstory actually makes her as someone you could see peter ending up later in life just not right now in fact she didn't become a definite love interest until the fourth or fifth season (a water clone or not)

[@andrewadams4815]

Yeah but it's not like 94 didn't have a slow burn either she wasn't so much an immediate love interest than a blind date and it was actually Morbius that made them destined for each other. If Morbius hadn't taken Peter's blood sample they wouldn't have realized how similar they were and like Gwen the goal was to make us love Felicia first just like Peter so she had a presence in the world BUT wasn't just there for him either like I keep saying anything spectacular did 94 already did and in a lot of cases better.

[@WebbedManiac]

@@andrewadams4815 You just sound angry because most people rank Spectacular above 94

[@andrewadams4815]

@@WebbedManiac No I just sound angry because people want to think Spectacular outdoes 94 it doesn’t anything Spectacular did 94 did already not saying it’s not good but it doesn’t outdo 94 or the Raimi trilogy and I can’t be the only one who believes that.

[@angryjack7963]

Sometimes I miss the extroverted model Mary Jane, I feel most incarnations of Mary Jane now borrow from the ultimate comics where Mary Jane was like Peter

[@mikemorro140]

It does kind of feel like they've tried to downplay it for like the last decade or so

[@jacobrivera1721]

I like her 616 counterpart

[@videogamesworld01]

I find that version way more interesting the only 616 I like is the jms one.

[@krisj827]

I agree

[@whodatninja439]

I hate that they literally just turn her into Lois Lane

[@GamerSlyRatchet1]

Setting aside my praise for Spectacular's MJ, I liked that 2017 made her a student athlete as a contrast to Peter's nerd. Too bad she was introduced very late in the series (aside from her cameo as the school's mascot) so her and Peter becoming a couple felt very rushed.

[@mikemorro140]

yeah I remember how disappointed I was because it was kind of a neat idea and it was like the first time a Spider-Man cartoon made them an official couple since the MTV series but they barely did anything with her, which is especially weird because there was a lot of marketing around it

[@andrewadams4815]

A lot of things in Spider-Man 2017 were very rushed or forced it doesn't outweigh the good and introducing MJ no matter how rushed still worked especially where being with Peter was concerned so I'm okay with it.

[@kodieparx]

Agreed, I wish we had gotten more screentime of her and not just hit with her like we know everything about this version of her

[@kodieparx]

@@andrewadams4815 ^

[@andrewadams4815]

@@kodieparx We weren't hit with her we did get to know her regardless of how brief it was there's a reason why Spider-Man 2017 is seen as an improvement over Ultimate Spider-Man even though KZbin refuses to believe it it doesn't talk down to anyone and Peter is annoying in the first few episodes that's all he is not grating or childish like in Ultimate and Robbie Daymond is seen as an improvement over Drake Bell for that reason alone that and the team ups actually help Spidey become a better hero and not a butt monkey like in Ultimate even in the worst episodes it's still better than Ultimate.

[@VonZuben]

I think my issue with the different adaptations of MJ is that there are so many. With someone like Lois Lane we all know how she's supposed to be and who she is. With MJ there's a lot less consistency.

[@draykohunter6805]

Same, I don't actually like how flexible her adaptations have been over the years some more than others but compared to Louis it's just odd. Especially the reporter thing it's very Lois Lane or Iris West and that's just not who she was, if anyone would become a reporter it'd be Peter, getting a possible promotion that would fall through due to other commitments or just not take it. We need more adaptations like Gwen & MJ from TASM/Spectacular, it's faithful but updated, and not just with Spider-Man characters ALL of Marvel going forward with that approach to adaptation would please just about everyone.

[@mikemorro140]

@@draykohunter6805 The reporter thing came from Ultimate comics as most adaptation s either base her off that or a mix of that and 616

[@draykohunter6805]

@@mikemorro140 thanks for the info

[@mayotango1317]

​@@draykohunter6805Gwen from TASM is just a MJ blonde.

[@legoguyhf]

I love how the video game MJ montage ranges from “Save me Spider-Man” to “I have a f*ing gun”

[@alexandrefrauches132]

My favorite version of Mary Jane is the TAS. I specially like how the show goes step beyond other adaptations and actually explore Mary Jane past (including her relationship with her father and Hydro Man obsession with her), as well showing her being badass (she gets kidnapp but also has moments where she is able to handle her problem by outsmarting villains like Hydro man and Kingpin henchmen)

[@andrewadams4815]

And that's why she's a better MJ than the Spectacular and especially the Raimi version which only borrowed very little from TAS Mary Jane with the abusive backstory and getting kidnapped by Spidey's villains but ignoring any of the growth and likability that made and still makes the 94 MJ the definite version of the character (Spectacular MJ may've been confident and assertive but that's all we got anything she did was always in the background or rushed even 2017 MJ was more fleshed out and yes I went there not sorry deal with it move on.)

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Yeah, Mary Jane in TAS was awesome. A shame we never got an actual ending to that show.

[@andrewadams4815]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Yeah but it was a more hopeful and optimistic ending compared to the downers we got in TNAS and Spectacular and while I like Spectacular MJ she was always a background character and her helping Gwen being noticed by Peter or dating Mark Allan could've been fleshed out more instead of brief glimpses that we got.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@andrewadams4815 yeah, true. That was nice. TNAS was pretty good too. Loved that version of Electro.

[@andrewadams4815]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Never said it wasn't good especially since that Electro is what TASM 2 tried and failed to duplicate same could be said of that version of Lizard where TASM's concerned.

[@christophercarrasco154]

I remember hearing a theory that Mary Jane in Miles's universe was going to shoot Kingpin in Spider-Verse. People were wondering what she was doing in that party and what with Mary Jane most likely knowing who Kingpin was (since her husband was REALLY REALLY open), it would make sense for her to make an assassination attempt. Hopefully we get confirmation about that because if so, that'd add even more weight to Kingpin being arrested.

[@jamainegardner4193]

Okay, that would be badass. I am sad we never find out what happened to her or R.I.Peter's old Spider Lair.

[@mikemorro140]

It's always been hilarious to me that Spectacular had the best MJ but it was also the only time she wasn't the main love interest, another reason why it sucks we never got more seasons since we didn't get to see that happen

[@paulakroy2635]

I think that Weisman understands that part of love of Spider-Man is that it’s a soap opera

[@HubPie3]

I do understand where you're coming from with Raimi's version of MJ, but a lot of the creative choices for her are from later runs, such as her abusive home life. I think the direction Spider-Man 3 took with her could've been salvaged if they delved into how her history of abuse effected her reactions to bad reviews for her stage plays, instead of it just being seen a couple of times in the previous movies. I don't think Raimi MJ is terrible (at least not until Spidey 3), but I do get your trepidation for her since she didn't display the countercultural attitude she displayed in her debut in the main comics.

[@ninjanibba4259]

She's pretty terrible in the entire trilogy

[@thevoid99]

although to be fair to raimi. it was ari arad that really made "spider-man 3" into the mess that it is and made mary jane a whiny victim of sorts.

[@ventusvanitas7544]

Facts

[@ventusvanitas7544]

@@ninjanibba4259 worst is fake MJ though 💀

[@ninjanibba4259]

@@ventusvanitas7544 she doesn't go from guy to guy and whine about things that don't go her way, so no, she's pretty awesome

[@alexandrefrauches132]

6:00 Actually, Weisman and the other showrunners have said that, despite wanting to end the series with Peter and Mary Jane getting married, they would not kill Gwen Stacy, meaning that she and Peter would probably just break up and Peter would eventually develop a relationship with Mary Jane, with Gwen coming to accept his decision.

[@andrewadams4815]

Or probably being unable to deal with Peter's secret life when she found out and who knows how long she and MJ would remain friends if they had MJ know the night Uncle Ben was shot they'd be friends but who knows for how longs.

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

The problem with that is Gwen's the only character in the show that they refused to give any word on what would have happened with had it continued.

[@alexandrefrauches132]

@@willfanofmanyii3751 Probably they would give her an arc similar to Betty Brant in the Steve Ditko run, with her losing her father and Peter realizing he can't be with Gwen anymore, knowing she wouldn't be able to live with man who always puts his life at risk.

[@andrewadams4815]

@@willfanofmanyii3751 The problem with that statement is they actually have Gwen and Harry would’ve fell apart pretty quickly once she realized the monster he was becoming so she would’ve gone back to Peter to truly start a relationship and MJ she would be struggling with her feelings for Peter having broken up with Mark as well as getting to know everyone else except Peter which is more likely cause she knows he’s Spider-Man why else would she let him ditch her at the dance and she might have been uneasy with Gwen and Peter being together despite her part in helping them with that she might have gotten jealous this time MJ did get like that whenever Peter was around another girl in the comics or other media despite what she said to Peter she had feelings for him but was too stubborn to act on them maybe helping Gwen getting noticed was another way of her hiding it it’s not unrealistic and has happened in real life with girls who say they like someone as a friend or brother and is too stubborn to admit or act on those feelings so she might’ve caused problems for Peter and Gwen if MJ and Gwen being friends in college is true and she’d wouldn’t be in the background but a character flaws and all someone Peter and eventually Gwen could relate to more than they thought yeah off track but Weisman has talked about his plans with Gwen if Spectacular continued.

[@prufan]

no, I'm pretty sure that Weisman hinted that Gwen would die in a college set DTV.

[@alucardvekkia3966]

model MJ > journalist MJ

[@Twisthiphop]

I wish Spectacular Spider-Man kept going until it's natural ending

[@lolhaipop]

W comments. MJ is the best Marvel Female character. She is the best friend, girlfriend and Wife. Alternate version also showed how she is great mother. Current writer Zeb wells literally trying to ruining her and other characters mainly Peter without reading past comics. Latest chapter or issues he really said norman osborn his father figure. Lol the guy who sold his own son soul for fortune.

[@jldr105]

Honestly if I were to make a modern MJ she’d be an influencer. I feel like that’s the modern culture popular people job and still allows her to kinda jump around what with what she’s doing at the time. Want to be an actress makes KZbin videos, wants to be a model, IG, activist, Twitter journalist it’s a broad umbrella that you can fit all these takes into one

[@jaroslavpohoral1897]

Actually that's not a bad idea if someone made it work properly.

[@roastedtoast5461]

Maybe one day we’ll see MJ be adapted like that

[@swanpride]

I don't think so...rebelling against a system or circumstances designed to keep her down is maybe the one part of her character which needs to be adapted. There is nothing more mainstream than an influencer nowadays.

[@timogul]

@@swanpride MCU MJ is more mainstream than being an influencer. Being an influencer is more MJ's style.

[@MrSafior]

After reading "My dress up darling" I came to the conslusion that the main female character, Kitagawa Marin, was alot like OG Mary-Jane, with a less tragic back story. Maybe they just need to make M-J an american gyaru, in spirit at least.

[@DarkKnightBatman420]

Couple years ago I read the Mary Jane novel. Yes, there's actually a book based on her. It seems to take a lot of inspiration from the Raimi MJ. It was a decent read. If anyone still reads, consider getting it.

[@BetterWithBob]

Shailene Woodley would have been awesome as Mary Jane. And she's likely not being hyperbolic with how she describes the script. After The Descendants put her on the map, she was very selective about the type of roles she picked (she famously turned down Carrie, Tomorrowland and Fifty Shades of Grey).

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

For the LOVE OF GOD would they ADAPT THIS WOMAN PROPERLY. She's literally one of the BEST FEMALE CHARACTERS EVER WRITTEN😭. She's been a Model, Actress and a Fashion Designer and even a HERO in the comics. She was NEVER a damsel in the distress...she was a BADASS

[@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214]

They already did in TAS, TNAS and Spetacular Spiderman

[@NolanWins]

Yeah that was Gwen’s job

[@NolanWins]

I actually like how they did in in The MCU Trilogy, she wasn’t a damsel in distress accept for 1 exception but Andrew saved her and redeemed himself so I’ll allow it.

[@maxshortscenes6863]

Gwen Stacy she is the original the original girl to Spider Man don't blame them man you know going she is original.

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

@@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214 she was a singular character trope in TNAS. She didnt know WHAT she wanted😭

[@wakamoon1910]

yeah mary jane kinda represents the ideal love interest in the superhero genre. her position is very versatile and can fit into whatever point in time peter is at, I think it helps due to how spider-man is one of the few superheroes that kinda actually developed and grew before comics got into the status quo. most other love interests have a fixed point while MJ was there for when peter was still in school and into his adult life.

[@nicolaseasdale1394]

Excellent video-essay, was not expecting this one. MJ is amazing and thank you for such an excellent video on her.

[@SolracDude]

I really don't get why so many writers write MJ like some generic destined love interest. If Peter's character arc is a boy learning to be an adult by accepting the burden of responsibility then Mary Jane's arc is a girl who has to stop treating life as a 1 women joy ride and learn to accept how she actually feels about the people around her. That's why Gwen's death is an important part in both characters lives, Peter lost everything again and was so close to crossing the line by killing Goblin and shutting himself off from everyone else. Meanwhile the carefree Mary Jane suddenly learns that her friend, alive and well all of yesterday, is now dead. Not much later her old ex Harry goes crazy, she herself nearly died, and no matter what she tells herself she can't deny that she does care about Peter. That is so much more interesting than anything any of these adaptations come up with. To be fair not all of them are showing the beginning of their relationship, and to be fair the generic childhood friend to love interest plot is what they do in Brian Michael Bendis Ultimate Spider-man, but also to be fair that particular characterization was boring in the ultimate comics too. I really feels it says something that the best MJ adaptation outside of Spectacular Spider-man is somehow Zendaya's version, a character who isn't even name Mary Jane. Like the only way they could write an interesting character was to divorce themselves from what audiences have come to expect from the character. To most people, Mary Jane is nothing more than the girl Spider-man dates, and that's kinda sad.

[@draykohunter6805]

There's a video I remember watching about the moment where Peter is going through a rough time I think after Gwen's death and he said something to her where she's about to walk out of the door and she stops on a blank panel and then turns around and closes the door to stay with Peter despite what he said to her I can't remember for the life of me what video it was but what you said reminded me of it.

[@Cdr2002]

It’s because the generic love interest is how they’re used to writing love interests so they don’t think about the character outside of that set box

[@dylansharp8471]

"Like the only way they could write an interesting character was to divorce themselves from what audiences have come to expect from the character" Is that a good thing or.....?

[@EnerKaizer]

@@draykohunter6805 This scene you describe is actually the final part of "The Death of Gwen Stacy". This happened right after Peters "last" encounter" with the Green Goblin.

[@NIN10DOXD]

The crazy part about MCU MJ is even if she is technically a different character, my parents immediately knew who she was and what role she'd play without knowing shit about Spider-Man because everyone knows who MJ is. I don't think ordinary people recognize Gwen Stacy like that. The only other supporting characters in Spider-Man or even Marvel as a whole with that level of recognition are Uncle Ben and Aunt May.

[@Jhazzmiin]

This says nothing about Mcu MJ as a character💀 ur literally just saying ppl know who “MJ” is bc of the previous versions lol

[@prufan]

@@Jhazzmiin yeah, they are just recognising the MJ name, mcu "MJ" is nothing like the actual character

[@prufan]

You are underestimating how recognised Gwen Stacy is as a Spiderman character, especially with Spectacular Spider-Man and especially TASM(and general audiences much preferred Gwen over Raimi MJ)

[@andrewadams4815]

​@@prufan Here's the thing 94 Spider-Man's final episode is when Gwen started being recognized in it's final episode yeah it'a an alternate earth and a very different Peter but it's the same Gwen fans knew from the comics so that was the beginning of Gwen known outside of the comics the only reason she didn't appear before then is due her premature death in the 70s but the Gwen from 94 is the same intelligent love interest as the Spectacular and TASM versions in my opinion that's when Gwen become well known outside the comics.

[@andrewadams4815]

@@prufan You could say the same about Ultimate Gwen Stacy who's nothing like the actual character either if anything character wise mcu MJ and Ultimate Gwen are the same.

[@stevedapirate5]

This is probably one of the most self-aware video essay channels on youtube. I love it.

[@kodieparx]

I think we can all agree MSM2017's MJ was one of the sweetest and understanding towards Peter

[@robertrowley4929]

Indeed; the actress clearly had a blast voicing her.

[@khaliyahjefferson832]

And she looks so cute in that version

[@DavidSilva-mn4dz]

I will love an MJ that is as Party Girl and social sabby. Like: Let use beauty and arts to influence the world kind of girl. In the amazing mary jane comics we see the hustlr of her making a movie when everything falls apart. So she is not the troupe of young journo but keeps her artistic show woman aspect that seems to be forgotten. Almost every woman in comics adaptations today or are fighters, cynics or scientist while the men are... Fighters, cynics and scientist, having MJs arts background will be a breath of fresh air in a more millitaristic technocratic lansdcape of heroes and heroines in media. It also shows the hustle of the artist, Raimi Trilogy showed it well lefting MJ again as an artist that will have to fight for being in the A game for another time.

[@MrSafior]

Or make her an american equivalent of a gyaruu. A sociable fashionista that got along whit everybody.

[@WebbedManiac]

The Amazing Mary Jane comics are some of the best comics I've read. I don't mean to say they are a masterpiece or anything, just that they represent Mary Jane very well. She's just trying to make a movie while dealing with everything falling apart around her, but her determination and upbeat personality keep her (and Mysterio) going.

[@justmoonwithamustache]

Spectacular Spider-Man is the best incarnation, Raimiverse just bounced from Peter to Harry,and was always a damsel in distress

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I loved Mary Jane from Spider-man the animated series. Wish we could have gotten a finale to that show where Spidey finds Mary Jane.

[@cameron8817]

That really opened my eyes. Great work.

[@madnessarcade7447]

USM Mj is my favorite she’s probably the most unique take on MJ SM17 MJ is just adorable In terms of animated portrayals Zendaya has my heart for live action Kirsten’s version is nostalgic but not my favorite one I like her but zendaya is my fav

[@jasonblalock4429]

I like how Zendaya's MJ *isn't* a textbook perfect match for Peter, but that she's kind of quirky and weird. They're both outsiders, and can connect on that level, even if it loses the idea of MJ representing the "normal" life that Peter can't have. She represents a life that actually could have been, which imo makes it even worse when Peter has to leave her. (Eh, who am I kidding. They'll probably undo the mind-wipe in the next movie. After all, they already teased Ned becoming Hobgoblin. Heaven forbid we have a tragic plot twist in comic book movies which isn't immediately undone...)

[@kodieparx]

Yep

[@denilkhan4577]

Sm 17?

[@Geostelar4920]

So I think your too focused on her "original" depiction, even though in the comics MJ has gone waay beyond that and had plenty of time to develop and become her own person though one who is tied to Pete. And with her being the perfect girl for Peter...I mean yeah the reason shes his main love intrest in everything is that they literally were married, and whenever theres a what if story and Peter had kids in it theres a 90% chance their redheads

[@richardlandgraf1953]

So what I'm hearing here is Spectacular Spider-man is still the best version of Spider-man in every way.

[@tankman3609]

7:50, he was one of my favorite rangers. How the mighty fall

[@hasan-ci8nw]

Ngl this guy is one of the best content creators I have been watching for a while

[@extonjonas6820]

I did not like Mary Jane in the PS4 game. It was so beyond mind boggling to me that they created the ultimate version of Spiderman that draws from all aspects and interpretations of the character to give you, the consumer the ultimate Spider-Man fantasy and they chose to make Spider-Man's girlfriend Lois Lane.

[@gbdeck200]

This

[@darthwolfX2]

Funny enough there is a comic called superman girl friend lois lane

[@peacemaster8117]

It was bad enough that they made her into a generic journalist character (a Lois Lane knock-off, like you said), but their decision to make you play as her, and have her boring stealth segments slow down an already bloated and sluggish game, seemed like a decision almost intended to make you dislike her.

[@extonjonas6820]

@@peacemaster8117 Agreed. The stealth sections I did not mind during my first playthrough, I did not really enjoy them but as a breezed through them so quick I barely remembered they were in there. On a subsequent playthrough however it was so frustrating as I wanted to get them over with so bad I would end up failing them like 2 or 3 times ironically just trying to rush through them. This really made me dislike them, as there is nothing fun or even. Challenging about them, wish they were skippable

[@sourasishseth2618]

Personally for me that was the second best interpretation of MJ other than Spectacular Spider-Man one. Louis Lane is honestly a damsel and a single dimensional reporter. PS4 MJ was a journalist who dives deeper and finds clues and completes Peter's inability to squeeze everywhere to get information. She was also one of the reasons Peter stopped being overprotective and was supportive of Miles going alone.

[@joelabrahammanoj9741]

If we are considering Michelle Jones she doesn't even have to have the name Mary Jane. They flexed Mary jane so hard she became unidentifiable apart from the acronym "MJ"

[@MetaGiga]

They pretty much made an OC

[@moonknightish]

That Michelle Jones doesn't even have an actual character or personality, she shouldn't be considered as a Mary Jane adaptation

[@sergioramirez3627]

Great video 👏 would love to see a deep dive on Gwen at some point! I always found it fascinating how the mythos of that character evolved since Emma Stone portrayed her in the TASM movies. I feel like Emma's portrayal was integral to the current Gwen adaptations.

[@savage1o]

just a comment of support, always love the your video essays so pretentious

[@numba9ine288]

Peter and MJ’s relationship in the Raimi movies is an accurate depiction of two young adults in NY who are inlove with eachother but are struggling with their own personal lives and identities, they want to be with eachother but their life problems just keeps them apart, I personally liked this dynamic because it’s definitely more relatable and i think people go way too hard on MJ in these movies, they talk about her like shes the villain or something

[@ricardohernandez8683]

I agree. It honestly just reeks of sexism. Especially since everyone seems to excuse peter, harry, flash and all these other male characters yet give her shit relentlessly and the only women in the movies that get praised are the agreeable goody two shoes characters like ursula and betty brant

[@trekwars6712]

​@@ricardohernandez8683 Absolutely. It's only due to sexism that 90% of the Raimi "fans" believe women should always serve men.

[@jeremybong7039]

This was pretty cool! Understandable that Spectacular's MJ would be the most favorite among fans, as so far she's been the best adapted, but your conclusion basically says that there really isn't a best and it's not important - just go with your favorite.

[@benji777tm]

Leo with another banger observation.

[@AndreNitroX]

Spider-Man TAS Mary Jane is still my favorite version of the character

[@sodium285]

Probably mine too

[@AndreNitroX]

@@sodium285 she was the IT girl.

[@colby8164]

I still grew up with Ramis spiderman version and will be my forever rendition

[@katherinealvarez9216]

1:41 yeah, no one talked about how she almost got married at 19. She couldn't even legally get liquor yet. You know for the longest time I didn't like that she left the guy at the altar. I still don't but she was 19! Who thought that was a good idea!?

[@mikemorro140]

being honest I'm pretty sure Raimi just wasn't thinking about their ages, I mean they're all around college age but that's about it

[@katherinealvarez9216]

@@mikemorro140 True but still, no one in college should get married. The stress from mid terms alone can wreck a marriage.

[@kctharich6836]

Second time u opened my eyes more bro. So inspiring. Subscribed!

[@Sky-xx3qp]

Love your content! Keep up the great work :)

[@PrincessJade74]

God I loved the MTV series, Lisa Loeb as MJ , mint!

[@aidanklobuchar1798]

Gotta love how Spider-Man combined good girl Gwen with bad girl Black Cat into a single character. And any version of MJ that gets powers is always a plus, for some dumb reason for me. So I that's points for Water MJ, Ultimate MJ (furry goblin powers), and Symbiote Queen MJ.

[@dylansharp8471]

"Gotta love how Spider-Man combined good girl Gwen with bad girl Black Cat into a single character" When was that? Also, Water MJ? And is Symbiote Queen MH from Ultimate Spider-Man?

[@jamainegardner4193]

One thing I really enjoy about Peter B's Mary Jane is that based on her using Sports metaphors it hints at her being a more outgoing kind of girl.

[@60fpspeasant84]

The pretentious end speech give off such a Super Eyepatch Wolf vibe (which i absolutely love). Great video and great choice of music.

[@li-limandragon9287]

It’s funny that MJ gets slapped with the Damsel In Distress label because in the comics she actually got rarely kidnapped and from her first encounter with Rhino mainly stayed out of danger.

[@mitchkat123]

I really love the MJ from 2017 Spider-Man. She just felt so fun and sweet. I also just love the 2017 Spider-Man. I think I’m the only one, but dang… it’s just my favorite out of all the Spider-Man shows.

[@madnessarcade7447]

Agreed USM and SM17 are my top 2

[@silverprimus321boi9]

Idk man sm2017 sucks ass for a lot of reasons, but at least mj was good

[@robertrowley4929]

I loved MJ in that show as well. There are, surprisingly, a few great things I love about 2017 Spider-Man. MJ being one of them.

[@Tze52]

Marvel's Spiderman version of MJ was something that randomly popped up in my recommended, but was instantly the version I liked the best. People always say MJ is the Spidermans true love but I never saw that and with this perspective that in fact she never was but instead was so flexible that she could was interesting.

[@uchihabomber1296]

Spectator Spider-Man Once again being comic book accurate and perfect adaptation like usual

[@jaroslavpohoral1897]

I am currently playing Marvel's Spider-Man for the first time on PC and I was just thinking about this topic oh my god. I kept thinking about how the MJ in the game is great and I like her a lot but I couldn't help but compare her to the other versions and how she doesn't quite feel right. Always kept coming back to Spectacular Spider-Man as I always do and thinking how there's probably never gonna be a better version. I am so fucking mad it got cancelled. :( Edit: Thanks for mentioning TASM2 MJ I love you!

[@jmgonzales7701]

Personally mj in the game is my favorite Mj, its also how i think she would look like in real life.

[@jaroslavpohoral1897]

@@jmgonzales7701 I honestly don't think so. This is too tame for MJ. She is normally an actress and/or model. She would look and behave more like Black Cat if she was truly accurate.

[@yahookhboy7398]

Mary Jane is traditionally a party girl that uses her outgoing nature to hide the pain of an abusive father. She lies to herself about wanting to live in the moment. She's a traditionally a very compassionate person as well because of her past. She hides in the spotlight. There's a lot of complexity in here and it makes a ton of sense why she'd be in love with a responsible, yet fun guy like Peter Parker despite dating a number of guys before him. He provides stability even when he can't be around. The Raimi movies, I don't want to do a comparison here, but that's the only other live action version, get the backstory right mixed with a more kind of corny girl next door thing for plot convenience. It's still a Mary Jane that gravitates towards the spotlight because her home life is sad. Peter is still there with stability. Even in the Insomniac game, there's hints that she enjoys the thrill of dangerous assignments. She's still passionate about what she does even if she isn't the party girl. This Michelle Jones is an incredibly dry, sarcastic introvert that goes to a school of geniuses. She said her father likes Peter, so obviously the abusive, absentee father isn't a factor her. She has no interest in being seen in general. She loves Peter after a few days of dating him... but why exactly beyond the plot requiring it? They're so dedicated to being an inverse of what previous movies did before, we don't even have a Mary Jane that likes swinging with Spider-man. It's just so pointless. They should have stuck to Michelle if they wanted something so wildly different. Just looking at some of the comments in this thread, posters bending over backwards to say this is a modern version of what Mary Jane represented in the 60s..... no. Just.... god, no. Party girls still exist. They didn't turn into antisocial weirdos because of smart phones. If anything there are more people than ever trying to be like comic Mary Jane on Instagram and tik tok than before. So in my point of view Mary Jane Watson is not Michelle Jones, they made her mj because it was Kevin fiage saw a fun homage to Peter's old love interest, also Michelle said she does not goes by the name of Watson so there are alot of times that they said Jones more then Watson I just hope they bring an og Mary Jane Watson for the MCU and the next Spider-Man troilgy

[@nbriez-c5914]

4:12 the pain and disappointment in that "wtf" yea I felt that deep

[@lukeamparo6586]

Spectacular Spider-Man and 90s TAS Spider-Man had the best Mary Jane/MJ ever.

[@prufan]

PS4 Mary Jane was just Lois lane, she looks like her and even has the same job

[@prufan]

and NO, MJ can't "be anything", otherwise you lose what makes her Mary Jane as a character. you can't just take identifiable and iconic elements away, she's supposed to be an actress/model

[@madnessarcade7447]

Glad u finally talked about USM and sm17 does that mean u watched all of both or just mj episodes

[@slimkickens]

"it's Randy, right?" "VERY"

[@crazypeopleonsunday7864]

"Tschüss"? With the umlaut, too? Ich liebe es!

[@omoefeasiemo3601]

i would have loved for you to talk about mj in the ultimate spider-man game

[@davidunderwood9728]

I don't know the comics but PS4 version was my favorite because she is a character in of herself. She's more than support character but I feel like more support characters should be written like her. She is essential but often gets in deeper than she should. PS4 does such a good job of showing Peter being pulled multiple ways at once and MJ's story is a good way to see that from another perspective.

[@cotton3399]

I liked her too but she was just so damn annoying sometimes

[@andrealdana26]

glad to see another spider-man fan who's a fellow army:)

[@JayC0306]

Thanks for the video

[@seanstuckey4849]

Now we have the recent comics by Zebb that are ruining her character in every conceivable way possible.

[@carsenmaxwell3336]

Mary Jane as the Ultimate Spider-Woman, makes me so sad that Ultimate Spider-Man ended with 4 seasons. Something as big as that, with her wearing and using Carnage, should’ve lasted longer, same with Scarlet Spider.

[@luckypeanut9943]

Peter Parker and Spiderman is an ever evolving character, MJ suits that perfectly because she can always match energy while grounding him. Having her be the generic damsel completely undermines that

[@sheev2829]

Spectacular Spiderman GOT at everything

[@caiguycrafter]

I still really dislike the Homecoming Trilogy MJ. I get it, they don't want the characters to be similar to all the previous adaptions or the comics... But for some reason they decided "let's make her nothing like the comics or the character that she actually is! Let's not even make her a red head, give her a different name, and a completely different personality!" Basically, she's not MJ at all, and the fact that they keep throwing hints to say that she's Mary Jane is dumb. The love story is really bad... In one movie she's way too quirky, and Peter seems almost to think she's weird... Then in FFH somehow he instantly has a crush on her? Just doesn't work for me. Spectacular Spider-Man will remain the best TV show or movie adaptation of MJ

[@addy3164]

I will never accept "Michelle Jones" as Mary Jane Watson, she is her own character

[@mysterionplays1621]

now that we know there's a multiverse, it's obvious she's not the same as the others.

[@wickedchild8501]

I understand your point but I can see where they took inspiration as being the MCU "Mary Jane"

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Next incarnation of MJ should introduce Spider-Man to the wonderful world of polyamory.

[@user-zf9pv7tf7t]

Inspiring video

[@tobermory88]

Imagine if one day they cast an actress to play MJ who is actually ginger.

[@emmypersonal4033]

Redhead* But yeah, that would be neat

[@tobermory88]

@@emmypersonal4033 it’s the same thing

[@icyjules]

Spectacular Spider-Man continues to be the best and most perfect animated Spider-Man show ever created. Such a shame that it was killed by Disney with no chance of ever returning.

[@dylansharp8471]

"with no chance of ever returning" Well actually..........

[@icyjules]

@@dylansharp8471 well actually what?

[@megu810]

@@dylansharp8471 please god

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

Well, the actual reason it was canceled (that being that after selling the tv rights sony still had the rights to ssm itself so neither party _could_ continue it) is still the case today, so unless it got a movie or something, there still is no chance as of right now

[@SatsujinSakana]

00:17 What a beautiful face MJ has there. Such class and sophistication.

[@neotiv]

where are you getting these songs for the intro and outro?!?! they're so good!!!

[@armandotorres8962]

I feel Spider-Man TAS and Spectacular are the only versions that truly understood MJ. She’s still the firecracker party girl but compassionate and decent. Making you think she’ll be self absorbed in the beginning but surprising you with her kindness. Every other version feels like trying too hard to “update” her. I get trying to do your own thing and that ain’t bad, but some times they only make her a prize and other times they make her…normal. And honestly, that makes her a boring character. We have other normal characters who can fill that void, why make MJ too much of a blank slate?

[@misostrazovsky8910]

I agree with you. Spider-Man TAS and Spectacular Spider-Man are the best Spider-Man cartoons. What I like about them, that MJ is not only woman in Peter's life like in most of adaptations but Peter is between women like in comics. In TAS Peter was between MJ and Felicia who is in place of Gwen that did not appear because creators did not want feature character that was supposed to die and in Spectacular Peter was between Liz and Gwen. Spider-Man TAS and Spectacular Spider-Man perfectly complement each other in many ways. For example about villains, TAS gave us amazing Scorpion while in Spectacular he was not there, Spectacular gave us amazing Sandman while in TAS he was not there.

[@waseem__600]

None of the live action MJs did Justice to her character from the comics and don't get me started on the PS4 one😭. I did like Spectacular Spider-man and TAS's one. But she's the best character by far in the comics she's just the GOAT.

[@kentinson1670]

Holy shit that Wild Force segment totally caught me off guard. That guy was my childhood

[@kuno3336]

Looking forward to the day the comics see them happy and together again

[@cui8789]

MJ coming from an abusive home was from the comics. Her home life was never exactly like Peter's.

[@LucasDarkGiygas]

I wonder why they are so hesitant in making her a model or an actress in more modern media. I wonder if the creators are just sexist and see modelling as a "stereotypical" job for her, and that they shouldn't make her too "girly".

[@prufan]

it does seem sexist when you really think about it, she's not even allowed to be an actress either. it's really disappointing to see what modern creators have done with MJ

[@rx.78]

@@prufan the irony is that chances are they don't want to make her a model or actress out of fear of being called sexist. That's why she's being handed jobs like reporter. To some making her a model pushes gender stereotypes. Personally I think that's a silly excuse, but that's how it goes. You have one side who will say it's sexist if she's a model and another side that says it's sexist if she isn't. There is no real winning solution when getting tugged from all sides.

[@thedarksaber]

What a great analysis. MJ has always been so confusing to me since she is so different in each adaption. After watching spectacular Spider-Man for the first time and loving the show. I really do think that her character is best when she is that moral support and anchor for peter in so many adaptions.

[@kebobezlarington6159]

Haha, In Too Deep by Sum 41. Didn't expect to see that song anywhere

[@bet0v966]

MTV’s MJ design & character to me will always be the default bar setting for any other tv/film take - she was perfect. Only Spectacular has met it with flying colors

[@keraatkins7833]

Favorite Mary Jane version is by comedian AceVane

[@ventusvanitas7544]

Is that a KZbin or something?

[@juliiju0484]

7:43 Yeah! What an incredible show! Although i warn you something, while i was singing the chorus occurred to me-

[@noobmasterruben5167]

The videogame mj shooting webs and being rubber was such a hilarious Mod

[@MegaKnight2012]

Nice to know I'm not the only one who loves Amazing Spider-Man 2. And yes, at some point it did hit me that Raimi's MJ was more Gwen Stacy whilst his Gwen was more MJ. This also annoys me because it would be fun to see Bryce Dallas Howard as MJ (maybe she can be cast as Andrew Garfield's MJ for the next live-action Spider-Verse movie, since she and Garfield are the same age). Also notice how despite many prominent redhead characters in Marvel, Marvel movies just do not cast redheads as redheads? Bryce Howard and Kate Mara were even cast as two iconic Marvel blondes despite being ginger. (And how does the Felicia Day-voiced MJ have such good fashion sense as a teen for a dance?)

[@meligm5460]

I don't think I have a favorite adaptation of Mary Jane (yet) The animated versions are ok, Spectacular stands out between the other ones but I feel like I needed to see more of her to fully love her, it threw me off a little that she was a journalist in USM, i don't understand why on current adaptations they're so averse to make her an actress I have mixed feelings about the Raimi version, i liked that there's a few elements of her character that come from the comics, but god she really tainted the view people had on MJ from then on The mcu version is just not Mary Jane Watson for me because for starters she isn't, one thing that i always will love about MJ is that despite her 'just being a love interest' she feels like she's her own person and with that you can see why she's a good match for Peter, and not just because is the rule, but we barely know anything about mcu MJ, I have seen fans built her character better with a few headcanons than whatever the writers of these movies did, and the movies don't really show us why she and Peter are good for each other, they did not really built their relationship but we just accept it because that's what's supposed to be PS4 MJ is not as bad as people make her to be, i didn't like her characterization but at least it felt like she was the heart of Peter's life, something that I really miss from all of spider-man media lately But idk, i'm just a big fan of the character so i think i'm very hard to please on that regard

[@draykohunter6805]

I think you said everything I felt about every version of MJ to a lesser or greater extent for some, like I love spectacular MJ a lot more, and dislike PS4 MJ as about as much as you but with a little bit more apathy. To my knowledge I can't recall any on-screen version of her be adapted as a model yet and I feel that's a shame or at least a fashion designer, at least Rami had her setup as a failed Broadway actress from the beginning despite the execution.

[@a_ninja2376]

I read the first line of the mystery song and wondered why i was in so deep

[@FlancitoConCebolla]

I swear Spectacular Spider-Man is an almost perfect Spider-Man adaptation. Is also my favorite classic Spider-Man series including comics