Buffy the Vampire Slayer Talk || s5e10 "Into the Woods"

[@Xhalph]

I find it interesting that Buffy keeps saying Riley is "dependable" as a reason to be with him, but never allows herself to depend on him.

[@Nepthu]

Great point!

[@basharic3162]

Yeah she only asked him to watch Dawn, who's totally not important.

[@lessismore8533]

@@basharic3162I mean Dawn is her little sister, though she s not my fav character

[@emptycarousels3950]

I don’t hate Riley. Buffy wasn’t in love with him, not to say that she didn’t care about him. He was hurting and didn’t have the coping skills or maturity to deal with it in a healthy way but he’s not a bad guy. We all wanted to feel needed or wanted.

[@russellward4624]

I dont agree she didn't love him. She totally went after him because she did.

[@leqaf]

@@russellward4624 she only went after him after Xander told her to.

[@livkate1]

I agree. And I think we all need to remember that they are still really young. Like 20-22 young. Of course they aren't going to cope with things in the perfect way.

[@horsepuncher95]

@@leqaf The reason she didn't initially go is coz he dumped that time restrained ultimatum in her lap. Most sane people would have also refused to go after that kind of bs treatment

[@russellward4624]

@@leqaf He told her to let him go if she wasn't in love with him but if she was she should go after him.

[@lawrencewestby9229]

About seven minutes into the episode when Buffy and Riley are alone together wraps up how Riley is feeling. He tells her how strong she has been and that she has never cried and she replied that she has cried and cried quite a lot. You can see the look on his face as he realizes she didn't need or even want to share those emotions with him, something he feels she would do if she truly loved him.

[@ChevaliersEmeraude]

Honestly that's kinda why I'm siding with Riley in that fight of theirs, even though I see many people who don't. She never let him be in her life, despite his constant efforts to do so, and it was just so obvious really. I mean even in this episode he gives her a chance to prove him wrong, and it takes Xander's wake up call (which comes a bit too late) for that to work. It may be controversial, I know Buffy is a beloved characters, but seeing how Riley was treated all season, I'm kinda glad they made so that he broke up with her, and him choosing himself first here. Honestly, good for him!

[@Figgy5119]

@@ChevaliersEmeraude I agree. Although at the end point he didn't behave well, this whole season he has tried to be there for her and said "what can I do to help you, how can I support you" and she basically says "nothing, I'm fine without you". Buffy is just trying to be strong, but Riley feels like that means she isn't open to him, especially when everyone around him keeps saying she is able to be open and vulnerable with other people.

[@meris8486]

@@ChevaliersEmeraude Riley didn't properly communicate his issues in the relationship to work through them. Instead he cheated on her and she found out about it. He confronts her when she's not emotionally ready to deal with things and gives a stupid ultimatum. Even though he's the one who majorly screwed up. I hate him in this episode, Xander too

[@ChevaliersEmeraude]

@@meris8486 Hmm, pretty sure his issues were communicated plenty over the course of the season, actually! Not just by him either, Xander knew about those issues as well and tried to bring it up to Buffy before, and she just dismissed them. Treat a guy like crap and he's gonna break up with you eventually!

[@meris8486]

@@ChevaliersEmeraude Gonna cheat, you mean? I can accept a breakup but not cheating, that's just such a deep emotional betrayal and he doesn't even properly apologise for it, he makes out like him cheating was her fault and it drives me crazy man.

[@FraggleShock]

It sucks that she missed him by actual seconds, although I feel pretty secure in the knowledge that it would never have worked out between him and Buffy anyway. He was Rebound Guy, and that's all he could ever be.

[@arielcarmona6660]

I think part of it was drama and part of it for me is I never bought Buffy and Riley as a couple because Blucas and SMG did not have chemistry, coming following Bangel, it was a big step down and everyone could feel it during season 4. At least that is how I felt. I remember this so vividly 22 years ago. Also Alley season 4: big defender of Riley. Alley mid season 5: "I really dislike this man" LMAO

[@ihh619]

She did love him though. Fans are pretending that their relationship didn't mean anything but Buffy showed that it did. Him leaving had hurt her deeply.

[@Nepthu]

@@ihh619 I agree. The only time she wasn't crazy about him was in season 5. Season 4, they were crazy about each other.

[@ernesthakey3396]

I did love that Xander realized, from what he told Buffy, that he'd been taking Anya for granted - and decided to actually tell her, in no uncertain terms, how he felt.

[@SashaRicky]

It's such a beautiful moment. If my boyfriend ever said something like that to me I'd be in floods of tears.

[@ernesthakey3396]

@@SashaRicky Affirmation of love in such a naked, heartfelt way is powerful af.

[@dannyheel1]

People do change. The problem is, no two people change in the same way or at the same pace. It is unfair for Riley to expect Buffy to know that the way she is treating him has started to rub him the wrong way if he doesn't tell her. It is also unfair for Buffy expect to be able to put Riley in a box and only take him out when she wants to play.

[@DarrenMalin]

yes , I always though she treated Riley like well to put it Bluntly a vibrator, I nice toy then she put him back the draw until she needs him again. I never like the way she treated Riley it was cruel and selfish, I thought it was a bit out of character for Buffy.

[@ernesthakey3396]

For me, it boiled down to this: If Buffy were still with Angel, she would have talked to Angel about Joyce, called him, leaned on him, let him hold her while she cried. You said "that's just how Buffy is." No - that's just how Buffy is with Riley. She needed Angel. She didn't need Riley, and he felt that. Riley was safe, convenient rebound guy. Neither of them were the right person for the other - they were good for a time, but their time was over.

[@zemoxian]

I think everyone she needed was in the hospital with her. I’m pretty sure she didn’t call all of them there. Maybe she called Giles and he called Willow and Xander. Surprised no one thought to include Reilly in the loop, even if Buffy didn’t. She called Tara family. I guess he wasn’t part of that. (Even Spike got a chance to comfort Buffy and he was actually there to kill her.).

[@ernesthakey3396]

@@zemoxian yeah, Riley gets sidelined a lot - because if Buffy doesn't call her boyfriend, who should? Most people consider their significant others one of the first people they would inform about major events, and that's basically my point - she takes Riley for granted, but he's not on the short list of people to tell stuff too. And as you say, "everyone she needed" was in the hospital. But Riley wasn't. It wasn't anyone's fault, really - it is just one more bit of evidence that the relationship isn't fated to last. I do think the writers had the relationship change some between S4 and S5. My personal head canon for this is as follows. When the monks rewrote reality, they changed Buffy's memories such that Buffy remembered always having a sister. They needed to Slayer to be willing to defend her sisteer, ie the Key, whatever that required. In the process, they turned her passion for Riley - the sort of passion she had in season 4 where she was ready to tear apart the Initiative to rescue him - into a different feeling, the comfort of having a reliable, convenient, and "strong enough not to get himself killed in my world" boyfriend, but not passionate enough to distract her from taking care of her family. Basically, I blame the monks' spell for the Buffy/Riley relationship changes between the seasons.

[@DarrenMalin]

@@ernesthakey3396 yes , I always though she treated Riley like well to put it Bluntly a vibrator, I nice toy then she put him back the draw until she needs him again. I never like the way she treated Riley it was cruel and selfish, I thought it was a bit out of character for Buffy.

[@raspar6]

My memory of when she dated Angel is that he wasn't there for a lot of things: they happened during the daylight. He would show up un-called for regardless, neither bitter for missing out, nor needing an invitation to understand that Buffy wanted him around. If Buffy said "oh I cried, I cried so hard I didn't think I'd be able to stop," he would have understood and said something to bring them both closer. If Buffy had said that it was time for action, not tears, they would have bonded by working together. It seems that everything Buffy and Angel did brought them closer together, while everything Buffy and Riley did pulled them further apart. While Angel knew how to pull Buffy out of her shell, Riley was always aiming for someone else's heart, not knowing where Buffy's really lay. And maybe Buffy was confused too, when Riley never seemed to understand how much she cared. They were both trying in their own way, but missing each other. And the distance grew....

[@4everbuffylover]

Hell she let Angel comfort her in Forever too. She just never opened up enough to Riley to let him support her.

[@k87jury]

4:09 Well when it comes to hospitals and Buffy’s past demons, she literally killed the demon that made her dislike hospitals.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

This. I think she had her closure for that, though I could see her still not liking hospitals, seeing that people don’t.

[@SashaRicky]

Yup slaying demons is Buffy's best way of working out her issues. ⚒️😊

[@Figgy5119]

I know a lot of people are angry at Riley's "ultimatum" and I can see how the wording can sound like that, but it's more like he chose the military. He said he was leaving, he made the choice. But he was saying that if Buffy wants him to stay, he would drop it for her. He wants to be where he has a purpose and he thinks the military is where he's needed most but he still loves Buffy more and hopes she'll want him to stay with her. Riley made some bad choices and certain things could have been cleared with honest conversation, but I don't really see Riley as a horrible guy because of this.

[@leora8278]

this

[@Kate303x]

But that wasn't the exact phrasing of it. He told her that if she didn't make him feel like she needed him in the same way she had needed Angel, just from stories he had heard from other people about them, that he was going to leave her. He said it was her fault that he cheated on her, because he needed to feel something like what she had felt when she "let" Dracula feed on her. But also, his whole jealousy deal re: Angel was that Dawn said that Buffy was always crying about their relationship, and Riley was bitter that Buffy never got emotional like that about him... except that Angel was murdering everyone and stalking her, and if Riley had maybe investigated, like he'd been trained to do, he would have known that. Instead, he was butthurt that Buffy wasn't being his perfect damsel.

[@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024]

The running after at the end scene doesn't really land for me either. They spent so much of this episode--and this whole season really--showing us that Buffy and Riley aren't right for each other, and then it's like they tried to turn around at the end and say "wait, no, actually he's a great guy and she does love him" pretty much just so the audience would, like...be more sad about the break up or something? Idk, it's one of those few moments in the show that just continues to not work for me no matter how many times I watch it lol.

[@oddbjorn1696]

I don't interpret Buffy's distancing and not willing to open herself up completely to Riley as necessarily her not truly loving him or "it's just who she is as a person". I think that Buffy is simply emotionally traumatized or scarred at the very least, and that she's not been able to work through that. Just looking back at everything she's experienced at such a young age, her life is like a revolving door hitting her in the face with traumatic experiences, life or death scenarios, tragedies and whatever else. Her relationship with Angel was certainly not her being distant and having her emotional walls up, and frankly I'm inclined to believe that's the "real" Buffy. And that relationship would presumably be one more reason why she might not feel ready to open up fully to anyone, looking at how that ended in a slow and painful way. There's absolutely a chance in my eyes that Buffy and Riley were right or compatible for each other. I'd imagine that if Riley came in at the time Angel did, and they got involved then, they could've been perfect for each other at that moment. Or perhaps at some time in the future if Buffy got to terms and processed her traumatic events, it could've also worked out great. And maybe that's what Buffy realized when she ran after him in the end there, that she genuinely loved him that deeply, but hadn't allowed herself to fully embrace it yet. Only a theory of course, and even if she did reach him in time it doesn't mean it would've changed anything for their relationship with her probably needing a lot of time to heal her emotional scars.

[@daniellemeyer3801]

Wellllllll, the moment you've been waiting for

[@maddwitch]

I think Buffy wanted to love Riley more than she actually loved him, because I don't think she's really over Angel...or at least, that she hasn't give herself enough time to heal after Angel to really open up the way Riley needed her to. I also think Dracula biting Buffy and her being under his thrall brought back up Riley's jealousy over Angel.

[@michaelmatthews3261]

I remember before season 5 started they announced that Marc Blucas was leaving the show, I remember reading in Buffy magazine that after season 4 ended they didn’t know what to do with his character. It’s like when they announced the Angel spin-off literally the night after Becoming part 2 aired

[@sirmoonslosthismind]

alley has seen all of season 5, but SPOILERS for those who haven't: i can't help but laugh maniacally when alley expresses her relief about joyce being ok.

[@Lions1986]

the way she hates on certain characters for no reason makes me excited and happy for when the ones she loves die

[@PaulMason99]

On the S2 DVD commentary Joss spoke about writing a scene in order to deliberately make you like Oz and specifically like Oz&Willow together. And it worked. I don't know what happened with Riley or when they decided to do it but at a certain point end of S4/beginning of S5 they clearly decided to give up on the idea of Riley being a good guy and a worthy partner for Buffy. I remember when I first watched the scene where he tells Xander "but she doesn't love me", and thinking, "uh-oh, what's going on here?" So when people talk about Riley being a toxic nice guy or whatever, they're not wrong but I always feel the hand of the writers, manipulating me to think that so they could write him off.

[@asthajindal5275]

I know... I definitely remember Buffy being crazy about him in season 4, and then its just like in season 5 they want to shoehorn him out of the plot as soon as possible coz they have better things planned.

[@ShmuelSch]

I love how all the reactors love Faith even after she became a murderer psycho but hate Riley because he has some issues after his role model turned out to be a doctor Frankenstein that drugged him and put a chip in him.

[@Kadda975]

Its pretty easy actually - the worst thing a character can be is boring and thats what Riley is

[@noonewashere6458]

They fell kinda short of giving Riley something for viewers to attach or relate to. He didn't get his own episodes or back story or the slow crawl into his psyche. Makes it a lot harder for most to feel empathy for the character, I think

[@leqaf]

@@Kadda975 that's not why they hate him though

[@faithlesshound5621]

The show sucks its audience into a highly species-ist point of view. Buffy and Faith killed hundreds of vampires and demons without comment, but killing the deputy mayor was condemned because he was human, though he was complicit in mass murder. Riley rounding up vampires and demons for vivisection was OK for the teen audience, who probably did not know about Dr Mengele, and were yet to hear about Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.

[@testytest69420]

​@@leqafIt's definitely part of it, and does make the other issues less forgivable, because they aren't part of an interesting character.

[@RICHIEV333]

If you are in a relationship and you are not getting what you need, or are unhappy, then letting the other person know what you are feeling is good. Riley's mistake wasn't telling Buffy his feelings. It was telling Buffy his feelings after he started letting a vampire bite him. (A metaphor for cheating/going to a prostitute) The time to speak up is before it gets to that point. Because if you only speak up after you are caught, 'cheating' it just sounds like excuses.

[@leqaf]

It was a metaphor for drugs not cheating. He could've had sex with the vampire but didn't. But I agree with everything else.

[@spamfilter32]

@@leqaf It was both. The dilapidated house was definitely a nod to heroin dens. But the show has used vampire feeding as a metaphor for sex before AND when we see the vampire feeding on Riley in the heroin den, the way she is kneeling before him, with the initial camera angle (before it pans) is purposely very deliberately suggestive of a certain sex act. Riley seeing the Vampires was BOTH a metaphor for cheating via prostitution AND drug use. Also, when Buffy is confronting Riley she specifically mentions him paying the Vampire in a way that was definitely evocative of prostitution.

[@startingQB]

Buffy says she can hang out with Riley anytime because she's spending time with her mom, whose going through a LIFE THREATENING EVENT! She wasn't trying to blow him off. Some things just take priority.

[@asthajindal5275]

It had been like that since before her mother's illness came to be known. And it would have continued that way after it too. I don't actually think her mother's life threatning event would have been such a stressor on their relationship if they had been on solid footing before that, but they weren't. It is what it is.

[@Kate303x]

Riley's a weirdo, anyway. If Buffy had sobbed on his shirt and used it to blow her nose, he'd be ecstatic.

[@fajenthygia5760]

I don't like the episode, but I do love the speech that Xander gives to Anya at the end. It might be my favorite Xander moment of the series.

[@DanielOrme]

Thank you! You put your finger on just what bothered me about this episode but couldn't quite pin down. The final Buffy/Riley breakup shouldn't come just because Buffy couldn't get to the helicopter in time. That's melodrama, not drama. Your alternate idea, that Buffy should stop running and realize what she's chasing doesn't really exist, would be much more satisfying. It restores Buffy's choice, and makes the breakup feel real and sadly inevitable, not unlucky happenstance.

[@leqaf]

That would make Buffy as a character perfect, and perfect characters are boring.

[@jp3813]

@@leqaf Audiences didn't find Bruce Lee boring.

[@leqaf]

@@jp3813 I love Kung Fu movies and yes Bruce Lee always played the same boring character in all of his movies, but people don't watch those movies for the character development.

[@jp3813]

@@leqaf They watched him for the excitement, not to be bored.

[@candaceheyman6143]

My biggest issue is that Riley brought up (finally!) the problems in their relationship--and their problems are serious, the kinds of things that need to be deeply examined--but then gave Buffy no time to actually examine anything. You're never going to make the right choice when you're given no time to examine your options. That always pisses me off with this episode. Others in the comments have beautifully expanded on those various problems, so I don't feel the need to. But it's the whole immediate forcing of the issue that always chaps my hide. I was able to sympathize with Riley's character up to this point (mildly; I never really cared for them as a couple) even including his terrible choices, but this negated all that for me.

[@caitlin329]

They've always been terrible at communication from the start.

[@yarayara5694]

I'm sure he would have given her time, but he didn't have any, since the military needed his decision.

[@candaceheyman6143]

@@yarayara5694 Honestly, I don't think they convincingly sold that military deadline. Grant was always suggesting that Riley come back, and there was always going to be another mission, or he could have caught up with them later. Again, I was never a fan of Buffy & Riley, but I never hated his character or his arc, but this just rang false and irritated me, especially when it originally aired. (I am frankly old and watched the show during its original run, lol. And I still love it, decades later. Can stand up, will stand up. 💖)

[@candaceheyman6143]

@@caitlin329 I know, right? I mean, hello, did y'all just forget about Hush? But even still, I feel that their relationship deserved a more thoughtful send-off. The arbitrary deadline just irked me, and made me feel like Riley was just a douche.

[@AlexisTheDragon]

Buffy doesn't actually open up to him, she puts on the act of opening up to him.

[@SD-wp4bp]

In the past year Riley lost his purpose/structure (the initiative), his friends (Forrest and Grant), and something resembling a mother figure (Walsh). He has nothing except Buffy, who doesn't lets him into her life and keeps him at arms' length. The fact that Buffy doesn't see Riley as a source of comfort or support is just such a damning statement about their relationship. And that's not about him needing her to "be someone else". She has no issue divulging those feelings to her friends and even Spike. That said though, I do feel the writers did Riley dirty this season. It felt a little like they were bored of their old toy and needed to make room for a new one.

[@blackkatt777]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@notyouraveragebear9326]

All great points but that still doesn’t excuse his behavior. Riley has always shown a bit of a inferiority complex and had issues excepting Buffy was stronger and very independent. Ofcourse that’s healthy to feel that way as a man and a partner BUT he was shit a communicating that since season 4. He’s always acted like a little spoiled boy and that led into season 5 of him CHOOSING to go get sucked off behind Buffy’s back. And his dialogue in this episode doesn’t help him because the tone of his explanation feels less “I’m sorry” and more “your actions led me to this. Now choose me or you’ll never see me again.” Like no, screw you kid. Bye.

[@elizabethm4824]

But that’s on Riley to create a circle of support and a purpose in his life. Go out and make some friends, volunteer somewhere, do anything. Buffy has slaying and her family and friends and a boyfriend. Riley has Buffy. That unevenness would doom any couple because she can fulfill all of his needs and still live her life. There aren’t four Buffys. And of course she isn’t reaching out to him for emotional support because his neediness is there. “Cry for me Buffy. Perform emotion so I can feel a certain way about myself.” He wanted to provide the support he wanted and the one time she rebuffed that, he stopped trying and assumed she never loved him rather than waiting for a less charged moment to talk about their relationship.

[@asthajindal5275]

@@elizabethm4824 I get that, really, it is Riley's responsibility. But please, its not that easy to break through indoctrination. Its been less than a year. Do you realize how utterly unequipped ex-military personnal are for normal social relationships? Besides, I have long since come to the realization that Buffy's life is a black hole, that just sucks in everything and everyone around it, leaving no time or space for anyone to create anything else. I mean, given how easily Willow and Xander fell in with Buffy since the first episode, its kind of easy to assume they did not have much of a life before her. For anyone to be in the scooby gang, it seems necessary that they devote everything only to that, since the life of a slayer kind of prohibits everyone caught in it to have a life outside of it.

[@lessismore8533]

@@notyouraveragebear9326that “your actions led me to this” is definitely gaslighting

[@lechugaquemada99]

Yeiiiiii this really has made my day, I literally checked on your KZbin channel 2 hours ago just to see if you had already posted a new reaction. Thanksss

[@charleyg313]

Episode summary: *Riley and Xander gaslight Buffy for 40 minutes*

[@davidmeadows5627]

Episode summery: Xander and Riley try to punch through Buffy's denial and self-righteousness for 40 minutes.

[@lessismore8533]

@@davidmeadows5627no. Once Riley lost his position, Buffy was the only thing life in his life and he expected her to be less independent and lean on her alot

[@powerpanda557]

I always thought they could’ve done better by Riley writing wise. I understand him going through identity crisis. Not knowing who he is. But it’s crazy. He was so good in season 4 and then just a dick in season 5.

[@myeckwaters]

"Marti Noxon, put me out of my misery..." You're asking Noxon to *END* your misery?!?!

[@serenity4eva89]

Yeah, Marti is the mistress of misery in the Buffyverse. And nowhere is that more apparent than during S6 when she took over as showrunner... just non-stop misery from beginning to end (thankfully Alley is far enough into S6 that none of this spoilery). I LOVE IT! 🖤

[@slayergirl6983]

Hey Alley I love your editing. 😊 that's the exact same song that I was hearing in my head.😂

[@ibgvox]

That was the first time Marti directed an episode and the first time a writer did that except Joss and Greenwalt. Of course at this point Marti was second in command and with a lot of duties (including casting) but it was a very time consuming process: write the episode (several days before the production begins), 8 days to prep, 8 days to film and 2-4 days to edit. Btw Marti did a great job with Into The Woods. She said about the processs: 'Well Joss was adamant that I do it. I wanted to do it and I have always dreamed of doing it but I was terrified, ready to bolt, but Joss was incredibly insistent because he knew that creatively I needed to understand that process better so that when he was less involved on the technical ends of things I would really understand every aspect of the show. So, he was my mentor, as he’s been in many respects, and he walked me through making shot lists, making storyboards and all the technical parts of it. He was on the set for some of the time, but much to my delight - because he wasn’t too worried for me - he started showing up less and less, letting me do it. '

[@erichunter7649]

If you go back to S4, Ruffy has been plagued by communication issues from the get-go. Buffy tells Angel she is in love at the end of Sanctuary, but she NEVER tells Riley that. Ruffy has A LOT of sex, but do they ever talk? No, not really. Riley hits Buffy with an ultimatum (thank you Marti Noxon, who brought us New Moon Rising), Spike reinforces what Riley was feeling, but NOT the truth as he did in Yoko Factor. Xander makes Buffy realize that she really does love Riley, AND that she never never told him, so that's why I think she ran after him, even though she knew it wasn't going to work.

[@FrancesW-]

I didn't really think about it, but it's interesting to think that as amazing an episode as Hush was, Buffy and Riley may have taken from that experience a lesson that the trick to getting closer to each other was to stop talking. That communication was a c*@k block on the relationship.

[@samanthas8340]

I generally agree with everything you had to say in this episode. However, I know a ton of fans tend view this episode as Buffy is 100% in the right, Riley and Xander are 100% wrong - but I to appreciate this episode for each character having a unique perspective. I think Riley's feeling are valid but his judgement is clouded in his insecurity and for a 20 something guy this seems pretty realistic. He had a lot of potential as as a healthy LT partner, but he has a lot of maturing to do. Same goes for Xander. I actually love the Xander scene, but a lot of people hate it. And fair enough it would've been better for Buffy to come to these realizations on her own. In any case I think we're all happy to see Riley leave, because for better or worse he's just not a compelling character to keep around.

[@alleybox]

yes the more i have thought about this episode, the less I am 1000% only siding with Buffy. I see both sides now, and just in all, their relationship wasnt a good fit.. and very true, poor Riley's character was just not a hit lmao

[@leqaf]

Yeah this is the only mature take here

[@blackkatt777]

Riley was exactly what Buffy was complaining about NOT having for years. A regular boyfriend. He worshipped her because he was so in awe and in love with who she was, but she took it for granted. The fans shitted all over him because he wasn't Angel or just supernatural with an alternative motive. He just wanted to be in a real relationship with Buffy. If the roles were reversed where he was the woman feeling neglected by her man with the important job. But she didn't want to complain because she felt his needs and feelings were more important to support than her own. So, she finds unhealthy ways to cope while still trying to smile and be there at his side whenever he was going through something. That story has always been told. Now we see it from the reverse side, and people are absolutely mercifulless or sympathetic to Riley. It pisses me off so much. I really feel bad for Marc Blucas because of all the hate mail and messages he received for playing that part. He even sent out an apology message to the fans for not being what they wanted him to be and still he felt honored to be a part of the show. That's just F'ed up. He and Riley deserved better.

[@cruelangel8689]

@@blackkatt777 Very well said. Riley was the one good choice Buffy made and she did take him for granted.

[@notyouraveragebear9326]

@@blackkatt777 he worshiped her because of who she was but you forgot he was also VERY insecure, lacked good communication, was a brat sometimes, and had a inferiority complex. Let’s not act like Riley is this perfect angel(pun intended) just because Buffy THOUGHT what was good for her after her years with Angel was a normal healthy easy boy.

[@caitlin329]

DC Gustavson was the leadman for most of the first 4 seasons, and apparently quite a good friend of Sarah Michelle Gellar. He was only 41 when he died, after fighting cancer and AIDS. (A leadman is a set decoration department member who is responsible for the props and swing gang and/or set dressers on a film set.)

[@HeiwaTori]

I love the juxtaposition of Xander not being super open about his feelings & Buffy being the same, they're very similar in that they dont always say their feelings & let themselves be vulnerable (in an emotional sense) & I love that, theres also a little telling of it not being a big deal for a guy but for a woman its unusual

[@serenity4eva89]

I just left a very similar reply on another comment for this reaction. So, I'm glad to see someone else feels the same way I do 🙂

[@HeiwaTori]

@@serenity4eva89 ayyy!! actually lovely to see someone of the same opinion

[@SashaRicky]

I feel for Riley so much in this episode. He wants the love that he feels for Buffy, from Buffy, but isn't getting it and is insecurely making bad choices just to feel wanted the way that he wants to be. Lack of communication was their breakdown. Riley wasn't open enough about his insecurities with Buffy and didn't give her a chance to fix those issues. Riley doesn't seem to acknowledge that, which is where he is most wrong for me. Buffy on the other hand is much more guarded and distant in their relationship; likely subconscious due to her past experience with Angel. I feel like this got worse for them when Riley became a civilian and they became even more less connected and further apart in worlds. Buffy had even more lack of commonality with Riley after that. Buffy is very independent and Riley became very dependent on Buffy when he became a civilian. She's the only purpose Riley felt like he had left; where that wasn't the case for Buffy. Buffy's purpose as a slayer and daughter remained more of priority in her life than their relationship, because she wasn't being overly co-dependent, and that irked Riley. Riley put too much of the blame on Buffy for not reciprocating that he made her his number one priority. Then drowned in his own self pity because he didn't want to take responsibility for himself. And when he finally did, their relationship sadly ended.

[@FrancesW-]

This. Riley has nothing in his life outside of Buffy. He's looking at her to be his whole world - to provide him with personal value, and meaning, and love, and constant companionship. Riley will not be happy in any relationship until he has something else going on to offer some balance so he's not coming on so strong. And I think you're also right that Buffy is taking it slower with Riley because of Angel, but I don't think that's bad. They've been dating a year (counting from their first kiss in Hush, which was episode ten of the previous season), and until Riley imploded, their relationship seemed to be coming along pretty well. Buffy really has expressed her love to Riley, though she has avoided the L-word, possibly because the last guy she said "I love you" to tried to kill her friends the very next day. But I felt like the emotional intimacy was developing, and things were building toward a stronger long-term proposition than the steamy whirlwind Romeo-and-Juliet thing she had had with Angel. But Graham said it best, "You used to have a mission. Now you're what, the mission's boyfriend?" As much as I think their relationship could have been salvageable, Riley staying in Sunnydale probably was not. He needed to find a purpose of his own, but didn't know how to take his eyes off Buffy long enough to look for one. The military offered him exactly what he needed. A potential purpose, and enough distance from Buffy to focus on it.

[@SashaRicky]

@@FrancesW- Thanks for the reply and I totally agree. I also don't think it's bad that Buffy is being more cautious in her relationship with Riley. After her traumatic relationship with Angel, it's only natural that Buffy would want to do things differently. However, I do still get a small sense that there is some unresolved and repressed trauma that Buffy has from her relationship with Angel, that she is holding onto. I feel like Buffy's repression of that is also a factor in the lack of communication that lead to her relationship breakdown with Riley. I feel like both Buffy and Riley had issues within themselves that they didn't address. Riley more so, I think. I find their relationship and the breakdown of it very fascinating and sad. I think Riley leaving was probably the best thing for him, as he made a proactive choice for himself to find his own purpose again, but it's so upsetting because just as Buffy had realised that she wanted to communicate and work on their relationship with him, he was gone. :(

[@serinas4465]

Yes to everything written here. Also, something often overlooked in the discussion why Buffy is more distant in the last weeks building up to this, is Dawn. Buffy and Giles decide they will not tell anyone about what she is. To achieve this Buffy has to built up somewhat of a disconnect, so no one notices. Especially towards Riley who is with them a lot and does notice that Buffy is overly protective towards her sister. And this, together with Joyces illness, weighs heavy on her, but she still cannot confide in Riley. And thus at a point in their relationship where he wants to get closer and has good reason to think she might be at the same level, she takes a step back without ever telling him why. But well, he never asks. And so we end up here.

[@jaycievictory8461]

14:34 Very well written speech from Xander to Anya. But I don't buy it. I don't feel it in their chemistry. And I *definitely* don't feel it in how he treats her. Actions speak louder than words, and he very much treats her as an embarrassment. And even if we do include words, this speech aside, he continually talks down to her. A lot of highly irritating moments in this episode tbh

[@ibgvox]

That was a Joss rewrite. The original by Marti was: I need to say something to you. I should have said it a long time ago. I mean, you may not even know... I love you, Anya, more every day. I love the way you see things. I love the way you work a cash register and how beautiful you are - and how amazingly sweet and crazy you can be at the same time...I can't imagine my days without you - and I wouldn't want to.

[@stoplisteningtothestatic7078]

yeah he treats anya like she is dumb when she is 1000 years old and actually 100x smarter than him... same with cordelia

[@purcascade]

@@ibgvox That smelled like a Joss Rewrite.

[@ibgvox]

@@purcascade Yep, it is!

[@evatesche]

Into the woods - you are going into a dark place where you cannot see a clear path anymore.

[@RB-vo4gi]

It’s also a play on the phrase “Out of the Woods” which means out of difficulties/danger/trouble.

[@DanielOrme]

@@RB-vo4gi Exactly. Doesn't Buffy say at one point in this episode that she is so happy that her mother is "out of the woods?"

[@midnightcryptworx]

I think Buffy absolutely loved Riley, it just wasn't the way Riley wanted or needed. I think it is very unhealthy for anyone to "need" anyone in a relationship. People should complement each other not be codependent. Buffy is anything but codependent and Riley didn't like that.

[@ShieldVids]

She did not love Riley. She was never open emotionally with him.

[@leqaf]

Yeah, she loved him like friend, that's it.

[@leqaf]

You say Buffy loved Riley. Based on what?

[@blackkatt777]

"Riley didn't like that"? Riley was excited and celebrated her fierce independence. What are you talking about?! He leaned on her during the traumatic crisis of his whole world crashing down around him. Being betrayed by Walsh, his former friend being murdered, being fed mind controlling drugs, having a control chip implanted in him, nearly dying, and his military career wasted. So, all he had left that he thought was a sure thing to invest in, and for the moment he thought was going somewhere real, was his relationship with Buffy. That's not being dependent, or toxic or even sexist. That's one half of what wasn't a whole relationship. He didn't walk away from her because, A. She was in a family crisis. He's not that type of guy. B. He would shelve his issues until hers were taken care of. So, he put his feelings on the back burner, and dealt with it in an unhealthy way. C. This type of scenerio happens in reverse every single day. This is just the writers giving the perspective from a gender reversed point of view. What if Buffy was like the negligent guy and Riley was the girlfriend taken for granted. People went out of their way to be toxic towards him while blindly not giving Buffy any of the blame, because she's the "Strong female protagonist".

[@yarayara5694]

Buffy is keeping Riley at a distance. He's in the right to doubt her feelings for him. Not feeling loved creates his neediness, it's not like he wants an unhealthy codependent relationship. You can be independent and still let your partner in, still share your feelings, still include them. She doesn't.

[@sarahhiggins1515]

Riley could never quite see that Buffy did love him. But Angel broke her in a way. She struggled to be vulnerable and let him in. She wanted him to only see her being strong and capable. Buffy is only realising now that she’s been pushing him away and then he immediately drops that ultimatum and its not enough time for her to wrap her head around everything. She’s rightfully angry and its hard when you’re in that mindset to convince someone to stay even though you know when you calm down you’ll regret not getting them. It takes Xander talking to her for her to see that. She starts running to him not because she forgives him but because she knows that she will eventually and doesn’t want it to be too late.

[@KT-iy9vc]

Though it has monsters, demons people with superpowers, etc., BTVS did realism- deaths, breakups, petty grievances and the routine illogical moments we all have, stuff like that - better than about any other show.

[@naraiceylob]

Regarding Buffy hating hospitals the hate came from her cousin Celia dying being killed by a demon. Buffy exorcised that fear by killing the demon. She showed no hospital hatred in season 3 (after feeding herself to Angelus) or at any time since.

[@xKagryx]

4:09 I literally don’t know what I’m going to do when I can’t watch you do this at every opening

[@horsepuncher95]

All my sympathy for Riley blew out the window when I got old enough to start having relationships and had a few play out like theirs where I was Riley. I had serious insecurity issues that I always ended up projecting on to my girlfriends. That dying need to be "needed" turns out is toxic as fuck, and often wrapped up in problems with your own masculinity. When I realised I wasn't the centre of my partners- worlds like I had made them the centre of mine, I freaked and couldn't handle and got desperate each time - which leads to shitty behaviour in order to try and elicit the response you want. Even after each relationship crashed and burned, I was convinced each time that I was a saint and that I gave everything.. The third time it started to play out how most of my relationships played out, it finally clicked that the problem was me and my inadequacy issues. And that Riley is a self absorbed twat.

[@davidmeadows5627]

What's wrong with wanting to feel needed, wanted, and loved? What's wrong with making your partner the center of your universe and expecting the same in return? Isn't that how true love is supposed to work? If you give it your all, then your partner should too. If your partner refuses, you should go your separate ways. Riley tried to be the best, most supportive, most unselfish, and least self-absorbed boyfriend he could, but Buffy wouldn't let him and didn't appreciate his lack of self-absorption. That's what hurt him. It's funny how you're accusing him of being the exact opposite of what he was.

[@yarayara5694]

You are projecting. Riley's insecurity comes from his inner knowing that Buffy doesn't love him the way he loves her. There's nothing wrong with him, or with his desire to be let in and not kept at a distance.

[@elizabethm4824]

@@davidmeadows5627 the reason you can’t make someone the centre of your universe is that no single person can fulfill all of your needs and have the time and be a complete person unto themselves. It’s codependent and not healthy.

[@davidmeadows5627]

@@elizabethm4824 But what if it's mutual?

[@jaycievictory8461]

4:00 Yeah, I was thinking about that just the other day. It was her cousin Celia, who was her bestie, and Buffy watched her be killed by a demon very young. Something as fundamental as that should at least get referred to again. And Joyce being in hospital was the perfect moment. Something like Buffy saying "I hate hospitals" or someone else saying she does and Riley asking why, then it would become clear that Buffy never told Riley about it, so it would also fit in perfectly with Riley's current arc (where he's a tool 🙃)

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

Sigh....this episode.🤦‍♀️ Buffy has a sick mother, magical make-believe sister, a new big bad that is way stronger than her, college, regular slayer duties, and ptsd, yet the only thought going through Riley's mind is: But what about *meeeeeeeeee?* 😭 Ugh. Could you just be there for her when she needs you and talk to her about your feelings instead of creating yet more problems for the woman you claim to love and then fobbing off? Xander's speech to Buffy is an exposé of his epic projection powers. Honestly, the number of times I've seen Xander make fun of Anya in front of his friends while he knows she doesn't understand sarcasm combined with the number of times he's told her to shut up makes me wonder how Xander defines the term 'love'. I also have some questions about Xander's non-response to what Riley told him in 'The Replacement'. Like, dude, you had literally MONTHS to bring this up but noooooo, you just HAD to wait until the 11th hour to throw it all in your friend's face. I feel that the writers worked very long and hard on trying to make Riley a big thing in the Buffyverse, and that they were frustrated that most viewers did not care for him one bit. Contrary to popular theory, for many viewers (including moi) this is not due to their obsessive Bangel shipping, it's because Riley is an unevenly written, boring character. The metaphorical punches that are dealt to Buffy in this episode feel to me (I can't repeat this enough: FEEL. TO. ME.) like jabs at the big bad audience for not being into Riley. What would have made this episode work infinitely better for me is if Buffy had calmly walked home to her family instead of desperately running after that helicopter.

[@jaycievictory8461]

Big fat yes to this. A frustrating episode that only frustrates me more the older I get

[@leqaf]

Isn't your partner supposed to be with you in hardship?

[@Kadda975]

Honestly, this episode always makes me angry. I hate how the narrative tries to tell us that Riley and Xander are in the right. Like yes, Buffy wasn't very attentive, but her mom was sick and Rileys response to that was cheating? And then the show tries to frame his leaving as this big loss for Buffy. Riley leaving with the military also feels like a step back, after his entire arc from season 4, when he had to learn to be independent from the initiative.

[@jaycievictory8461]

Cosigned!

[@Heldemon]

Spoilers Buffy literally admits later on she was never open with him or let him in.

[@leqaf]

That wasn't cheating, there was no sex involved. It's not normal to not tell your partner when there's a medical emergency.

[@interstellarprobe4930]

I never got this narrative. I never saw the show saying Riley was right. It was one of the few times Xander had some good points. Rewatch this season. Riley tells Buffy he loves her several times. Buffy never says it back. So, the only thing that the show says that Riley got right was that Buffy doesn't tell him she loves him. She definitely believes she loves him. But, Riley is then shown to be a total jerk by telling her how she feels. He could have said, "You never tell me you love me." But instead, he told her how he felt she felt. Bad communication strategy. For someone who studied psychology, he is pretty terrible at communication. Buffy is way better when she has a partner she can communicate with. Look at how she communicates with Spike this season. They have very open and honest communication. Buffy loathes Spike, but she still communicates with him a ton better than she does with Riley. This shows Buffy is capable of good communication. In my opinion, the relationship imploded for two reasons: 1. Riley sucks at communication and put no effort into improving. 2. Buffy never realized there was a problem any time Riley would passive-aggressively storm off. That's about it. Relationships take two people, and this one had zero people making an effort. Buffy can hardly be blamed. Riley never told her there was a problem. This means Buffy never had a chance to make anything right with Riley. But, nothing in the show makes it seem like Riley is ever right. Xander is probably right that if Buffy wanted Riley to stay, all she needed to do was go after him. But, Xander was probably wrong that it would help anything. The only thing that would help is if Riley started communicating.

[@faithlesshound5621]

There are layers of metaphor here. Literary vampires used to represent forbidden sex and maybe also syphilis, but here the vampire brothel looks more like a drug den. Riley becomes "dependent" on his vampire girl because she needs him, whereas Buffy does not, and then replaces both with the military (some kind of special forces) which seems to be another total institution that he goes back (relapses?) into. A different aspect of the Buffy-Riley relationship is that it is very much encouraged by Willow and Xander as more healthy/normal than what she had with Angel. But does she need Riley any more than a fish needs a bicycle?

[@coldservings]

You said Riley had a point. Yeah, he did. But that's the kind of thing you talk over with your partner, not something you use as an excuse for repeat visits to a vampire bordello.

[@christianschoff2490]

LMFAO at your dislike of Riley.

[@DaDunge]

17:30 It's not just Anya. Xander grows up. But I don't like his relationship to Riley at all, Xander is fanboying the worst he has since he was drugged in Ted.

[@russellward4624]

I think Spike was just trying to hurt Riley. They don't like each other and Spike saw a chance to hurt him. He picked up on how Riley was feeling and twisted the knife. He most likely hoped if they broke up he'd have a chance as well. Spike is convinced Buffy needs a dark soul to be with.

[@painlord2k]

A DARK SOUL

[@lessismore8533]

I mean Season 6 proves Spikes was right lol But ONLY for S6

[@adiarainfoster]

Lots of blaming of Riley going on and yea he probably should have done things differently, but there's a reason it all happened. Buffy had already been hard-core shutting him out. She didn't even tell him when her mom was in the hospital. Spike had to tell him. Can you imagine how much that hurt? He didn't decide to leave after she came for him. He didn't know she was there. Thus the shot from the helicopter of her shouting at him from the ground and no sound but the helicopter.

[@lessismore8533]

Buffy’s actions don’t justify Riley’s irresponsible behavior it just made things WORSE. Why do ppl always want to add fuel to the fire instead of talking things out..

[@amandajm]

if it’s not too much trouble you update the playlists im trying to watch this on auto play while at work lol - this is the last one that appears on the btvs s4/ats s2 playlist

[@markrankin1094]

The title 'Into The Woods', is an inversion of the phrase 'out of the woods' (i.e. no longer in danger). Joyce has just been given the all clear by the doc, she's out of the woods. This should make everything in Buffy's life so much better, but it's just the start of the ep, and Riley's selfish, addicted, behaviour mean she's only just about to start into those same metaphorical woods.

[@r.maciel2544]

I hate when I agree with Xander. Good thing it hardly ever happens.

[@DaDunge]

10:30 Of course Spike can hurt people in other ways.

[@tehcoolemu]

I'm guessing Editing Alley had some "ouch" moments reliving some of your commentary, here. o_O

[@killianlpc]

Riley was an 'unlucky' character in the show, in that many fans couldn't stand him, somewhat unfairly really, but he was never gonna replace Angel or even Spike as far as fans were concerned in relation to Buffy. Some very interesting dialogue in this episode where everyone is speaking truth and it isn't what they want to hear. Buffy is of course feeling betrayed that Riley is getting satisfaction away from her, it suits Spike to tell her this as he is now infatuated with her. I think we can see Xander's character having grown so much where he has gone from sex mad teenager to philosophical adult, giving great advice all round.

[@TheNoybusiness]

Well, by now you've seen "I Was Made to Love You" and "The Body". I'm imagining your reaction to it going to end credits on the final scene of the former. It would only make sense to make Marc Blucas out of the credits in the first episode *after* he leaves. I think Riley looks silly not seeing Buffy because he's looking straight ahead in a huff the whole time. So excited for the next three Angels!

[@ibgvox]

Joss changed the original Marti's dialogue during Xander and Anya moment at the end: Original Noxon: XANDER: I need to say something to you. I should have said it a long time ago. I mean, you may not even know... I love you, Anya, more every day. I love the way you see things. I love the way you work a cash register and how beautiful you are - and how amazingly sweet and crazy you can be at the same time...I can't imagine my days without you - and I wouldn't want to. Joss rewrite: XANDER: I've gotta say something... 'Cause ... I don't think I've made it clear. I'm in love with you. Powerfully, painfully in love. The things you do ... the way you think ... the way you move ... I get excited every time I'm about to see you. You make me feel like I've never felt before in my life. Like a man. (Pause. He shrugs uneasily) I just thought you might wanna know.

[@spikesecho724]

Yikes, Marti 😬 That's why scripts have to pass thru Joss first

[@Crims0nKing1]

A Wild Xander appeared! Xander used Convenient Pep Talk! It's Super Effective! Buffy Fled

[@MultiShriek]

Weirdly a very moving episode. Love this one. Painfully honest in the unfiltered breakdown of a couple. Too grown up and honest for good people to be honest.

[@spamfilter32]

Buffy's coat in this episode. That is an amazing coat.

[@tuesdead]

ahhh i love your editing lol

[@jimforman3754]

I have not been refreshing every 10 minutes waiting for this.....

[@MagusAgrippa8]

The way I see the whole Dracula reasoning is looking at it through a certain similar lens- kissing. Riley got jealous over Buffy and Dracula 'kissing', so he sought out extra-relationship 'liplocks'. The main difference is Buffy really didn't have much choice. Dracula took the 'kiss' in a swift moment of passion. Riley purposely sought out the 'kiss'. He felt the heavy need and passion in his 'kisses' with the vampire chicks, and it left being with Buffy dull in comparison.

[@shadowjewel]

Honestly I favour Riley over Buffy. I feel bad for him, he tried so hard for her, until he realised his efforts weren't going to get him anywhere, that's when he messed up with the vamps and got hooked on the rush and sense of intimacy they gave him, intimacy Buffy wasn't giving him. On the other hand, while she didn't mean to, Buffy used him for her own convenience and when she didn't want to use him, she pushed him away. I don't think it was a personality clash, I think she just wasn't emotionally committed to the relationship, weather because of the after effects of Angel, or because she was scared it might really truly work, or whatever. It was a one way relationship in which Buffy was the user and Riley the giver. Sure he should have used his words better and talk more forcefully about his feelings, and a lot sooner, but he did try, Buffy just didn't want to see it because it wasn't convenient to her. I think the reason most people favour Buffy is because she's the main character, the story POV is set up to favour her.

[@daniellecleveland6240]

I was screaming stop running the whole time she was running

[@jaycievictory8461]

6:29 Gonna get caught BITCH! I lost it 😅

[@TopcatsLair]

Ouch.... this episode hurts waaaaay more now than when i first watched it. Mirror image of my last breakup. Felt like i wasn't needed as a lover, only wanted as a friend or a convenient wallet. Gave an opportunity for change and it just got worse. I totally understand Riley now that i've lived a little more.

[@blackkatt777]

I do believe a lot of people who watch this show at one age group and then comes back to it later in life, always learns a newer perspective if they've grown up. So, I try to be patient with reactors, and realized that they are too green to see the gray in their black and white point of view.

[@jaycievictory8461]

5:18 Your faaaaaaaaace 😂😂😂😂 This needs to become a meme of acute discomfort slowly becoming disgust immediately. Also: mood 🤢

[@dusk78]

Sometimes things just end without proper closure. That happens all the time in real life.

[@oforth]

something occurred to me regarding the end of this episode in light of Whedon’s love of subverting his choice of expectations. the desperate run to catch the beloved in the nick of time but, is a cliche… so it not working here is the point, on both levels, i think

[@slayervision2484]

Oh man you liking Riley last season was too good to be true! I adore Buffy but I'm mostly on Riley's side on this one. The episode is really good I think, it doesn't oversimplifies things, and Marc Blucas does a fantastic job, I truly feel for him, he is definitely underappreciated by the fandom in my eyes.

[@blackkatt777]

EXACTLY! Thank you. He deserved better.

[@RitsychServare]

@12:39 THE SONG!!! 👏👏👏 Just perfect! 😂 Could've done it a little sooner though but Riley wants the last laugh 🤷‍♀️

[@DaDunge]

28:30 Fairly sure he was lying. It was really about Angel but he knows saying that to her would make her even angrier.

[@jaycievictory8461]

4:37 I can't remember the exact timings of how old Dawn would be in this memory, but I remember being bothered by it since Joyce didn't find out Buffy was the Slayer until she was 17. Only about three years earlier, when Dawn would have been about 11. So Dawn is too old for the memory that's been implanted here. Some might say it's a glitch in the spell, but to me it's another example of the writers originally having Dawn much younger and not adjusting the writing appropriately. If they'd just stuck with Dawn being a young child, she probably wouldn't grate so often on people (it's me; I'm people).

[@Carabas72]

Dawn probably knew way earlier than Joyce.

[@jaycievictory8461]

@@Carabas72 That doesn't make sense to me. Why would Buffy confide such an important secret in a child. And why burden her little sister to keep such a secret from their mum. Unless you think she found out accidentally, but we're having to assume a lot to get there, so that still feels like weak writing to me.

[@Carabas72]

@@jaycievictory8461 Who says Buffy confided? It's a lot easier to keep a secret from a parent than from a nosy kid with nothing better to do than put her nose in your nusiness.

[@jaycievictory8461]

@@Carabas72 I did also cover my feelings if Dawn found out without Buffy wanting her to. I feel like the viewers are having to take too many steps to get there and that it's still a weakness in the writing. Of course, it's cool that you don't agree, but that's where I come from on it :)

[@perrimadden6964]

To me this episode is like The Devil Wears Prada. They try to make it out that Buffy is in the wrong, when actually her boyfriend is too weak and insecure to be with her. I hate that Xander talks her into running after him when Riley is not the guy for her. (I feel basically the same about the crap boyfriend in Prada)

[@edwardthorne9875]

As we used to say when all this was brand new... "BLUUUUCAAASS!"

[@billiesean4684]

So excited for this one!!

[@spaceshiplewis]

21:40 "It's like she knows that Riley would do anything for her and will be there whenever she needs him." No, that was Angel, Angel would do anything for her AND BE THERE WHENEVER SHE NEEDED HIM, even when she didn't know she needed him or whether she calls on him or not. He was there. He was there to help out the scoobies, he was there to break curses. Even when the scoobies went and got him, he was easy to find (and he's dorky Batman, so he can disappear into the night when he wants). Riley on the other was always late the group chats and hugging circles, needing commands and direction for whom or what to prioritize, and recently oftentimes completely unreliable to the scoobies.

[@lurker1316]

Weird that you spent the first minute of the video applying clown makeup. Also I just recently saw a post pointing out how it's kind of dark that Riley went to Spike's with a fake stake. Like, going there to kill Spike would've been dark, but going there to specifically stab him with something that won't kill him, to essentially torture and intimidate him, is a different kind of dark. Of course, Spike probably respects that, but it's still messed up. And like you said, I can see Riley's point about being unsatisfied in the relationship, but how he chose to deal with those feelings is still on him.

[@interstellardave]

Riley had more than one good point. If we forget about him entirely, and just think about Buffy, we can see how valid his points are. She never really has a good, adult, romantic relationship with anyone. It’s probably the burden of being a slayer so I’m not saying it’s a giant character flaw or anything. She’s really not meant to live very long, unfortunately, so that certainly doesn’t help. Nothing he said excuses his gross actions with the vampires, of course, but it’s good for Buffy to hear because she can tell him to shove off, but still see there are things about herself that require introspection. I totally agree she should not have gone after him, though. They are both better off apart at this point.

[@RB-vo4gi]

“You didn’t cry on my shoulder? What the f**k.” And that perfectly describes Riley in this season. Also… Xander’s whole “No OnE hAd To TeLl Me AnYtHiNg.” Shut up, bro. RILEY told you.

[@leqaf]

Riley never said that. It's not normal to keep your partner in the dark about things that happen in your life, like the fact that your mother is very sick in the hospital. Buffy was in the wrong there.

[@elizabethm4824]

That’s literally the moment in Xander’s speech when I reflexively say “fuck off Xander” every single time. The way he shamed and scolded Buffy when she wasn’t privy to Riley’s concerns the way Xander was pissed me off so much!

[@TheOriginalJammyOne]

I'm guessing by the decorations in the background it's near November/December, and you didn't get my package in your PO box about a month earlier. Oh well, these things happen. I'm so glad you finally see Xander show how great he really is. It only took four and a bit seasons. 😃

[@jaycievictory8461]

"They made me feel something. Something I didn't know I was missing until-" The VICTIM BLAMING from this guy 🙄

[@leqaf]

They're both victims

[@davidmeadows5627]

He spoke like a woman explaining to her boyfriend why she cheated. "He made me feel something. Something I didn't even know I was missing." That's female language after getting caught by your man.

[@leqaf]

@@davidmeadows5627 that's the kind of thing people who find religion say too

[@jaycievictory8461]

@@davidmeadows5627 Victim blaming of this kind can come from anyone. It's not specific to women.

[@scottkreiner8168]

If you haven't already, everybody NEEDS to watch The Passion Of The Nerds video on this episode

[@Heldemon]

I haven't seen that one but SofieReacts had a really good reaction and take on this episode.

[@jaycievictory8461]

You know, Riley's speech "defending" himself and blaming Buffy feels uncomfortably close to Joss Whedon's recent interview and excusing of his actions. I feel Joss all over this episode. ESPECIALLY when his self-confessed avatar Xander dares to blame Buffy for Riley's actions and tells her Riley is the once-in-a-lifetime guy (sure, the rampantly insecure guy that cheats on you, blames you, issues an ultimatum and couldnt ever cope with your strength is your soul mate), and then the swelling music tells us we're supposed to agree and be devastated when she doesn't catch him in time. Devastated that he leaves. Pbbbbbllllttttttt. Blow it out your arse, Whedon.

[@RoseJackson1607]

Ugh stop attributing everything even remotely problematic in this show to Joss. Strangely the most racist episode of the show was written by Jane Espenson but people LOOOVE to rave about her in the fandom. Can yall admit that you are just hypocrits that want to appear woke now that Joss is canceled?

[@jaycievictory8461]

@@RoseJackson1607 I adored Whedon. He was my hero. I was really upset when all of the victims' stories came out. I said nothing about race. I have no reason to attribute racist moments in the show to Whedon over other writers. But there is a lot of evidence to link the misogynistic moments in the show to him . It's mirrored by his real-life treatment of women. And Joss himself referred to Xander as his self-insert.

[@leqaf]

She was a bad girlfriend. It's not normal not to tell your partner about a medical emergency. Neither one of them handled this situation correctly.

[@DaDunge]

9:30 Riley is really effing fortunate that Spike has a chip in his hea dbecaise Spike has killed Slayers, without the chip he'd wipe the floor woth Riley.

[@davidmeadows5627]

Spike is really effing fortunate that Riley chose a plastic stake instead of a wooden one. If I were Riley, I'd be in such a rage that I'd show up with an axe and cut Spike's head off.

[@DaDunge]

@@davidmeadows5627 Actually it's crap writing that a mere human could get that close to staking Spike even when he can't attack back. Spike of earlier seasons was way stronger and faster than mere humans.

[@Kay2be2mr]

She started wanting him gone, and by the end was upset that he was gone.😆 I laughed so hard. Riley was trying to understand why vampires had such a hold on Buffy, when she's supposed to hate them and want to kill them all. Yet she has sympathy for Spike, dated Angel, and felt a pull towards Dracula (however fleeting). That, together with feeling left out in other parts of her life just caused him to spiral. Yes some of it comes off as sexist as some people have argued in the past. But I feel like as much as most people claim to want someone completely secure and independent. The truth is you do want your significant other to need you at least as emotional support for certain things. Does that mean that you yourself are an insecure person.... maybe?...but we're human. We experience insecurities and jealousy and all that at some point during our relationships. To expect people to be so emotionally mature that none of that ever happens, and if it ever does, for some people to say... it's a "toxic" relationship...is unfair and unrealistic.

[@meris8486]

Kinda wish Buffy was just "bye bitch" to Riley lmao

[@9ansean]

25:35-26:09 It's okay to be rambled for a bit. There's a lot of unpack. My earlier fears that this would just be a one sided rant proved unfounded. I you're going a good job of breaking it down. 36:40-37:20 Totally agree. That would have made for a much better ending and with only just slightly different execution. After half a season establishing that two people don't work as a couple we didn't need their breakup to feel like a matter of chance. Have at least one of them actually make the hard choice with the other present.

[@Buffy8Fan]

There are two moments in this episode that will always confuse me. Riley trying to talk to Buffy, and Xander and Buffy in the ally. I've seen fans argue that Riley's attitude and character comes out of nowhere this season. I heavily argue that. Starting back in Something Blue, Riley says as the last line of the episode, "you're going to teach me." It has him telling her and not asking her. From there Doomed comes along. In that episode, Buffy has genuine concerns about dating Riley. Despite having been casually dating Joe Normal Riley, she isn't ready to do so with soldier Riley because of her past with Angel, Faith and as the slayer. Riley calls her "stupid" and "self-involved" for not wanting to date him anymore. The reason this red flag usually isn't called out is because Riley hides the toxic masculinity attitude once Buffy decides to date him at the end of the episode. Personally, she wasn't ready to date. Willow and Riley both pushed her into it after Buffy said no. Riley lost his sense of self when The Initiative fell. Everything Adam said about Maggie designing him and being a "mother" to him had a ring of truth to it when he no longer knew how to handle life in general without the purpose The Initiative gave him. That purpose is now "The mission's boyfriend" (take care of Buffy while fighting at her side) as Graham eventually says to him (sad thing is that is in part why Angel needed to leave as well. He had no sense of self outside of being Buffy's boyfriend, either). In The Yoko Factor, Riley starts showing jealousy. Riley's jealousy isn't because of Xander or Angel directly (although I don't think Xander should have said anything to Riley about the curse or his opinions on it). People's jealousies are their own, even when other people trigger them. Then we come to the Buffy and Riley forgiveness moment of that episode. Riley saying, "I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" put all Riley's jealousy blame on Buffy while he continues to act jealous until this episode. With said jealousy comes a bigger urge to be "mission's boyfriend" (take even bigger care of Buffy than before) in order to fill The Initiative's void. But he struggles to keep up with Buffy and in Out of Mind, Out of Sight his body cannot take it after what The Initiative has done to his body and needs surgery. Riley told Xander in The Replacement that Buffy didn't love him. His realization of that led to him deciding to purposely start getting bit, in Family, to understand Buffy. 🤦‍♂🙄🤦‍♀ He gets caught in this episode. As stated Buffy doesn't love Riley. She fought against dating him knowing she wasn't ready to begin with. Riley was a long term rebound from Angel she cared about. Riley's actions as a result of figuring out it wasn't love show the side of him that was building since early S4 (although probably a lifelong issue for Riley). When the two of them argue, Riley actually says he isn't giving her an ultimatum when that is exactly what he is doing. Riley's excuses for getting bit are weak attempts to justify the metaphor of paying for a prostitute (the drug metaphor was there too, but Riley defined connections between vampires and sexuality as well as got sucked by female vampires specifically [one in particular]) before giving her an ultimatum and telling her that isn't what he was doing, followed by stating directly as a closing line, "Unless you give me a reason to stay, I'm leaving tonight." When Riley tells Buffy the vampires needed him specifically, as if they wouldn't just move on to the next human with a wad of cash and available blood, it shows how far gone into his red flag territory he is. Same with saying its about him taking care of Buffy. If he thinks getting bit was the answer to an her not opening up to people... well first that's wrong as he needed to make her aware there were problems. She talked to him or asked him to open up when she saw he had heart issues, but he didn't until she forced the issue. But that doesn't mean pushing people to open up is the right answer either. Riley wanted to comfort her; to give his life that purpose of "Mission's boyfriend." Buffy's personality was already struggling with Riley wanting to do that as she is a strong, independent woman, but without The Initiative, Riley is depending on Buffy by trying to get her to depend on him. Buffy opens up to people and allows people to take care of her the way Riley was asking when they don't push her into said action and when she trusts the relationship enough. It took Giles until the end of Helpless (22 months) before Buffy opened up to him that way. Riley has known Buffy 14 months and they have only been dating 11 months. If he was patient and didn't push it by doing things like trying to lean her head on his shoulder when that wasn't her natural reaction (and leave his jealousy behind), eventually she would have allowed him to "take care of her." Being "on top of everything" is in her job description. Riley's reaction to not getting those things from Buffy was bad in every way. I disagree with Riley when he said he could handle Buffy being physically stronger. A part of Buffy's problem is that she feels that she has to be as emotionally strong as she is physically and I don't think Riley had figured that one out because he is the one that's dependent on her. None of this includes the fact that Riley was asking for Buffy to be comforted by him when her mom was the priority, either. How Riley handles the fallout of this episode is a natural progression from the first red flags of Riley saying, "You're going to teach me" and calling Buffy "stupid" and "self-involved" until giving the ultimatum. This is the first time Xander doesn't yell at Buffy or be rude when he is in disagreement with someone, but I still think he misses and ignores key points. Xander is in many ways similar to Riley. That is why he identifies with Riley when Riley tells Xander Buffy doesn't love Riley. Xander is remembering Buffy turning him down in Prophecy Girl (and blocking out his own toxic reaction). Therefore when Buffy and Riley's relationship implodes, Xander guilted Buffy into chasing the helicopter down ("He's never held back with you," "think about what you're about to lose" and also him not caring that the ultimatum would lead to just as many problems in the Buffy/Riley relationship as they already have. None of these things seem to phase Xander. He is just identifying with Riley when nothing Riley has done is healthy to the relationship). Whether he guilted her intentionally or unintentionally is up for debate, but he acted like Riley's issues weren't part of the problem. Xander is pushing Buffy into his decision of what he wants her to do and not what she would do. Again, whether intentional or unintentional is up for debate. I don't look at chasing the helicopter as a decision Buffy would have made if Xander didn't make her feel guilty. Buffy and Riley's problems are a reason to let Riley go and not chase after him. Xander may not have intentionally guilted and/or pushed Buffy, but it happened that way nonetheless. Why didn't Xander bring their issues up to Buffy sooner if he was so worried? There has been nine weeks since Riley told Xander Buffy doesn't love him. Saying something only after it was too late (especially to the degree of how could you of not seen it coming Buffy) doesn't help the Buffy/Riley relationship even if Buffy had caught up to the helicopter. They have already shown on both sides non-communication skills since day one. I don't think that would have changed now. Xander is identifying with Riley so much that he is showing Buffy blame without giving Riley at least equal due for Buffy and Riley's problems. Buffy turning it around on Xander shows that Xander didn't see the problems of his relationship with Anya anymore than he assumed Buffy should of been able to see hers with Riley. Buffy rebounding with Riley is a common thing to do in the dating life of humans. Xander didn't and wouldn't have saved the Riley/Buffy relationship. He waited nine weeks to say something, and even then it was only when things were unsavable. Buffy said something as a result of Xander attacking her and might have saved the Xander/Anya relationship by saying Xander was using Anya as a convenience. Xander also states in other episodes indirectly that being the only guy his age in a mostly group of females is hard. He didn't want to be the only other male figure his age in the group. That combined with identifying with him made what he said to Buffy wrong, despite the fact that Buffy not loving Riley is truthful. But there is nothing wrong with Buffy dating Riley as a rebound (despite initially arguing against dating him to begin with because she had genuine concerns about dating Riley). Xander starts their alley conversation high and mighty and then convinces her she needs to choose to run after him. But I think he actually lays out why they needed to end it more than give her a reason to chase the helicopter. So when Buffy runs after Riley, it is Xander unintentionally choosing for her because he identifies the situation to Riley. Xander attempted to talk to Riley a few times indirectly, but if he were as worried and aware about the relationship as he claims in that alley, he would have talked to Buffy as well, especially as he put a lot of blame on her for not loving Riley (which for a rebound is what is practically expected of that type of relationship - just a casual and/or fun time with few strings). I don't think Angel or Riley were healthy relationships with Buffy. It was healthy both of them ended. Just too bad they did so on such sour notes. I always seem to ramble over these points in this episode. Sorry. Love the song moments while Riley leaves in the helicopter and during his ultimatum.

[@leqaf]

1. You write as if Buffy had no responsibility in this. Nobody pushed Buffy into dating Riley, absolutely no one. You're infantilizing her. You're taking away her agency. Buffy isn't perfect and she made a lot of mistakes in this relationship. She said to willow she liked Riley but there was something missing. So she went into that relationship knowing she wasn't that into him. And it's not normal to not tell your partner when there's a medical emergency. That's not okay. 2. Ultimatums are necessary sometimes. "You either treat me like I deserve or I walk out", is a good ultimatum. 3. "Being on top of everything" is not part of her job description. Slayers are not even supposed to have a social life. 4. SPOILERS: It's weird how Xander nags Buffy to go after Riley but he makes a good point. Buffy has horrible taste in men, Xander can see it, Riley can see it, even Dracula could see it. And you know what's coming later, you know what I'm talking about. Riley was the most normal and healthy relationship Buffy ever had and Xander is right in pointing that out.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@leqaf SPOILERS I don't write as if she had no responsibility. What I am saying about #1 is that by the end of the episode she changed her mind before she was consciously ready based on Riley and Willow's opinions. 100% agency. Buffy is far from perfect. Especially in relationships. Not loving Riley and taking him for granted doesn't excuse Riley's behavior, though. Buffy's mistake was that after she got together with him before _Doomed,_ she thought she understood their feelings of casualness. After Riley called her out in _Doomed,_ through insults, she convinced herself it could be more. She didn't ever get there, nor did anyone else understand her feelings about it. I indirectly stated Riley and Xander had points, but I still thought Riley made a bigger mess of things than Buffy, and Xander came in too late to help. As for #2, it isn't the ultimatum itself that is wrong (because I agree that sometimes ultimatums are necessary). What I said bothers me is that he said he wasn't giving an ultimatum and then did. If Riley had said something along the lines of your, "You either treat me like I deserve or I walk out" before he started going to the vampire whorehouse or tried talking to Buffy after he realized she didn't love him, I would have been more understanding towards him. #3 But she feels it is, is the point. And even if wrong, Giles has allowed her one, unlike most Watchers, so I'm not sure I agree, but I was talking about slaying when typing that and when it comes to her family and personal life she should just in general, as long as Giles isn't trying to stifle her away from her family or her personal life. #4 Riley may be the most normal relationship, but after what he did, and after what you and I both stated, he isn't any more healthy than Angel, but I'll wait to talk about upcoming relationships. I didn't bring this up directly in the OG comment because said comment was epically long already. But I alluded to them. What you stated doesn't negate what I stated. It adds to it.

[@N8Maple01]

4:08 Our girl has hit her dab again. Keeping in mind that she is already well past the end of season 5, do you think she will still hit her dab after S5E15? The start of S5E16?

[@Nepthu]

The Buffy/Riley relationship was written completely differently in season 5. In season 4, they were in love, no question. After the Initiative left, Riley lost it all. He gave away his career, mission and purpose to a woman who was losing interest. Too many fans pretend that Buffy didn't love Riley when she did. The writers made him act out of character in the last few episodes, and I think Alley over-emphasized that instead of seeing the entirety of season 4.

[@Leafsdude_]

I've always felt that, episode 3 of this season, when Riley tells Xander "she doesn't love me", that's the moment where he should be telling himself, "okay, time for me to go." This episode, IMO, fails more because of what it could (and should) have been, rather than what it is (though it does fail on that in a lot of ways, too). It could have been an excellent commentary of toxic romanticism, thinking "if I just try harder, and stick around through the bs, she'll realize I'm the one", when in reality, his epiphany at the end of the Replacement should have told him, that's never going to happen. But instead of exploring that, they try to make this an even more cliched romantic plot of "character x _finally_ realizes they love character y and goes to reconcile, etc, etc, etc", when this universe is so heavily based on being "your authentic self". In this case, Riley and Buffy needing to realize the core of who they are means they can never work as a couple: Riley requires emotional intimacy and a partner who supports him and who needs his support, and Buffy needs someone who can accept her independence and emotional distance and be okay with it (and neither is wrong for having those needs - they're simply wrong for thinking they can somehow change the other to become what they need). I do wonder how much executive meddling went into that ending, just because it's so antithetical to everything else this series has to say. Its message sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to Lie to Me or Amends (for two examples). That's where I have an issue with it. And all of this is said while admitting I feel a lot of empathy for Riley, and that the episode itself, as a part of the arcs for the different characters, is actually pretty good, IMO.

[@RetroRobotRadio]

One thing women often overlook is that men are literally wired to be needed. A man is best when he's doing something for someone he loves. The problem in his and Riley's relationship is that she didn't need him or love him. He couldn't cope with that.

[@veronicaquintanatorres2473]

I know a lot of people don´t like this episode, but I really do, The scene between Riley and Spike my favourite

[@Bfdidc]

That was a bright spot in this episode to be sure.

[@math9172]

Tbh I never liked Riley the first time I watched the show and I really didn't want him to be endgame. I was sooo glad when he left. Now I kinda appreciate his role and value in the show, but I still do not like the character. Really funny for me how the trope of "mc arrives too late to stop love interest from leaving" is supposed to feel tragic and sad, but all I could feel was glee when I first watched it.

[@hardybryan]

Riley is gone! Woohoo! No disrespect to Marc Blucas whom I actually rather enjoy. Character just got stale without a life of his own. Time to move on. Like Angel in season 3. You'll never convince me Angel isn't 1000x more interesting after Buffy. Anyway, Riley has his points (she did keep him at a distane) and I don't think Buffy loved him close to the way he loved her, but it's also not her fault that he needs to be needed and she's not needy. They just weren't meant to be.

[@cliveklg7739]

I believe the title is referencing the musical "Into the Woods" The musical intertwines the plots of several Brothers Grimm fairy tales, exploring the consequences of the characters' wishes and quests. It is a pretty crazy play but it fits.

[@Cavadinda]

I always thought it was because it's the opposite of "out of the woods". I think Buffy even says that now that Joyce is ok, they're "out of the woods", but then all this Riley stuff happens, and she's gone "into the woods" again.

[@dmwalker24]

His whole perception of their relationship was just so screwed up. If Buffy cried about her Mother, and Riley didn't see it, then it is instantly seen as evidence that he's not needed. It's selfish, and egocentric. It's not her job to blow smoke up his ass 24/7. And really, given everything else she's dealing with, it's amazingly inconsiderate.