Power Gaming “That Guy” Is Upset Because Light Exists | Narrated D&D Story

Power gaming and simping name a more powerful combination of cringe.
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[@ashtonrooks7899]

"Big of heart, dumb of ass" Best description ever

[@pambronson4467]

Cerberi would be the accurate plural form of Cerberus. Fun fact: The name Cerberus means "spotted", so the ancient Greek hellhound was called "Spot".

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

That makes me doubt the DM was not getting back at the Kobold after all. ;))))

[@shadowrunner9876]

I didn’t know that until I read The Dresden Files: Skin Game and I laughed my ass off at that.

[@JimmyBonez]

And today I learned...

[@andrewjohnson6716]

Cerberus is Greek not Latin, so the correct usage would be cerepodi.

[@pitstoppete5359]

@@andrewjohnson6716 was just about to say the same thing lol, although I would say cerberopedi

[@NotMyRealName6]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. *_CON IS NEVER A DUMP STAT!_*

[@alsenddrake7764]

This. We got a Goblin NPC who joined us and has class levels, but has low Con. Second she gets hit, she's basically down. Lucky for us I can heal.

[@istariknight1]

It is if you're min-maxing. That doesn't make it a good idea though 😅

[@Nyghtking]

Yup, I prefer to dump chr if i'm going to dump anything since it's a lot easier to avoid conversations and when they do happen they'll usually have less effect on the character then a saving throw will.

[@axel4196]

Indeed. Personally, I like to stay healthy.

[@aCatNamedGarbage]

I only ever dumped con on one character, but she was basically dead if anything hit her regardless(P1e, we were like level 8-9 and she was a Kobold Ashiftah Witch who focused on luck hexes and invisibility, gave her the Old template for bonus mental stats) Her Con was like 4 and she was EXTREMELY careful about everything. Little old lady kobold who spoke in rhyme and stepped in time.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

“The LIGHT IT BURNS US! It freezess!” “Sir, this is a magma field” “YIRBEL LIVES”

[@michaeledmunds7056]

Did you just combine three different memes into one?

[@Pikmin13]

the idea of having a kolbolt who confidant in the dark but paranoid of dyeing in any light sound fun but that player sounded like a pain

[@1tiptip187]

Yeah, it would be fun if the guy was RP driven. But the player doesn't sound like a RP driven player.

[@zakuraRabbit]

I had an idea for an albino kobold who belives the sun is a deadly laser (literally) having grown up in the Underdark (basically the clan had come from the surface many generations ago, and through each generation telling exaggerated stories the sun went from something that would make it hard for them to see due to sunlight sensitivity, to it being outright deadly)... though I haven't been able to play out that part of them because it kinda only works in an Underdark campaign, otherwise they would just be covering in fear every time they're outside during daytime.

[@midnightstorm6576]

I KNOW, I can't get over how this would have been AMAZING as In Character. Like, a Kobald from the Underdark that is afraid of light makes perfect sense, a kobold who thinks that all the lava is the work of the demons and there on purpose makes sense. Like imagining this little bugger being cocky one minute and scared the next as this sorta crazy Golem-style hermit? Lovely RP. But OOC you're not a kobold hermit who doesn't know how anything works.

[@cicisstormshelter1076]

That kobold was secretly a vampire. XD

[@CrusaderCrunch]

Litterally heard the line the dude is like "OH MY GOD YOUR TRYING TO KILL ME" at 14 damage made me spit up my drink. My DM at lvl 3 as a pugilst made me in one combat face 5 enemies, one was in reality had to have been a lvl 5 fighter as they had extra attack and one was at least a lvl 3 wizard as they used a lvl 2 spell against me. The only back up I had was one of our party who was a barbarian without tavern brawler and we were in a brawl that our wizard started and fled. I took the 13 temp hp I had and was down to 2 hp, I had to then use my Bloody but unbowed and I got 8 hp back and then braced again and rolled max for another 16. I finished that fight 1 hp and 1 point of exhaustion and failed a death save 2 times before getting up. Now that is your dm wanting you dead man. We won but my god, my dm took my out-of-character joke the day before that I have yet to die in a dnd game to heart.

[@clericofchaos1]

There's nothing inherently wrong with min-maxing or power gaming. The main difference though is that min-maxers are rules lawyers who know how everything works and realize that they are making a one-trick pony, meaning they hardly ever get upset when that one trick is either nerfed or disabled. Especially if it's only for a few sessions. Power gamers have a tendency to forget, or be ignorant of, the rules and 3 times out of 10 will feel personally targeted if their one trick is ever disabled.

[@lordkhaelesdrakos5153]

As a min-maxer I love optimizing my build and creating the most survivable characters I can. I used to have a dm who was sadistic even by v1 standards, so I learned to power build to survive. Alot of times power gamers are the way they are because their DM kept trying to win against the party.

[@aceaszwall8333]

If you're going to be , be min maxing or power gaming, I first suggest KNOW YOUR RULES if a single rule dismisses your build unless your own DM's homebrew can get through it then just go with something more standard and it does suck to have your builds nerfed by the DM and it can feel like a targeted attack, but it is not plus if you did all of the math and calculating and rule reading to figure out your build in the first place you can use that same brain to get past whatever challenge it is. I also do suggest explaining what you're doing with your DM before you do it on most occasions unless you're playing one of the very rare player VS player games which I myself play commonly ... if you're in one of the few cases where it is player vs player go nuts

[@HighPhoenix1754]

Yeah. Min-Maxing is just a build Philosophy. Power-Gaming is a general approach to gaming/challenges. The issue is purely when ASSHOLES get a hold of one or both of these Philosophies.. Like the That Guy in this story.. This isn't a powergaming or Min-Maxing issue. It's a THAT GUY issue.

[@swimmingmide]

I like to make very niche characters who have one thing they are very good at. Like my paladin who has a resting AC of 22 at level 5 and can go up to 26 if the wild magic barb rolls well and I cast shield of faith on myself, 28 if we can find someone to cast haste on me. By level 7 I'll have +5 to every saving throw(I rolled well in character creation) and resistance to magic damage. The goal was to get the most AC I possibly could with abilities and items. I had a warlock who would constantly cast spells that created magical darkness that only I could see through. The sorcerer who carried a bag of toy soldiers to cast animate objects on so he could roll more attack dice than a level 20 fighter every round. The druid/monk multiclass that used brewers tools and plant growth spell to become the number 1 producer of beer/liquor in the land and make more money than they could possibly spend.

[@HighPhoenix1754]

@@swimmingmide and that's perfectly fine. That's a method of Min-Maxing too that people seem to overlook-- doing so around a concept or niche, which is its own reward when it ends up working out!

[@norfemignissius4936]

If you make a "one-trick pony", assume it. Also never complain about your CON score, you made the decisions leading to it. Even accepting to roll 3d6 for stats and getting 3 total CON is your decisions in the end.

[@MindOfGenius]

When I played a show-boaty actress, I LEANED IN HARD to her flair and "artistic exaggerations"...as well as ACCEPTING ALL the times she was shut down verbally, exposing her self. Sometimes, accepting the bad is good.

[@Lrbearclaw]

This story perfectly encapsulates how people get vision rules wrong. Darkvision doesn't mean you see perfectly in the dark. You see greyscale, cannot read and wouldn't be able to tell the difference between wood and stone by sight (for example). If you have a source of light, your Darkvision begins at the point it becomes Dim Light (so a torch turns your vision from 20' Bright/100' dark into 40' bright/100' dark).

[@kamirostorino9416]

emm.. Devil Sight invocation allows the warlock who has it to see color in dark

[@ventricality6997]

I thought if you had a torch 20/40, that 40ft dim.light would just be bright light and wouldnt extend past that

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

@@kamirostorino9416 Yes, but Devil Sight isn't Darkvision. It's Devil Sight.

[@Smilley85]

@OP: Not exactly. Darkvision allows a creature to see in Dim light as it it was Bright light, and have the gameplay equivalent of Dim light up to their range of Darkvision in total darkness - with the exception of being able to read and discern colors. So if you held a torch or Light spell centered on yourself with 60 feet of Darkvision, you'd have 40 feet of Bright light vision (20 ft actual Bright light plus 20 ft of Dim light), and 20 ft of Dim light vision due to Darkvision.

[@jamesmartin8005]

Another thing that folks get wrong about darkvision all the time, is that if you have 60' of darkvision, you see up to 30' as if bright light and then other 30' as dim light. So disadvantage on perception checks past 30'. Its not 60' of pure sight and then nothing, like a lot of folks seem to think.

[@StripesChaosGremlin]

Honestly... If I wanted to mess with Kobold, I would have used creatures with tremor sense that also have an aversion to light. I know that would have gone over like a lead balloon but still. Also for a character obsessed with darkness his player sure loves the spotlight.

[@Smilley85]

Or have him attacked by a Cloaker, who gets weakened when exposed to bright light.

[@paulcoy9060]

Tremorsense is good, or even Truesight. Or maybe a new creature that sees thermal images like a "Predator". Or one that hunts by echolocation, like a giant Man-Bat. How do slimes hunt? Just sort of wiggle around and hope they grab someone? Also, that spotlight line is a gem.

[@KC24987]

Kobold is also warlock. If he was so concerned about light being around why not learn darkness spell? Guy made no sense complaining about light sources when the entire time the reason players choose devil sight it's to pair it off with darkness spell. Why no one pointed this out surprises me.

[@TigerKirby215]

Hi original writer here. Fairly certain he only had 2 levels in Warlock. We were level 7 if I remember properly, and he had Extra Attack. Gloom Stalkers get Darkness but ehhhhhhh

[@vahidhashemi9684]

@@TigerKirby215 I really can't understand why he didn't do darkness + Blind fighting if he was that concerned. he could have hit people with his sling from 10 feet away and hide somewhere in the darkness away from them. or just take Druidic warrior like I did and snuff out lights when possible with from 60 feet away with control flames. he can also have guidance to drop every now and then outside combat too. I guess he wasn't smart enough to come up with the idea of warlock-gloomstalker on his own, if he was, he'd found ways to overcome it. My Gloomstalker was neigh invinsible with his flight speed and Gloomstalker stuff and the cautionary spells I took. I saw DM was messing with me with AOE, so I dropped my bow, took a shield master feat and went sword and board. with +4 Dex and shieldmaster feat, I had +9 to AOE dex saves and wouldn't take any damage on a successful save. That's how I got kicked out of the campaign 2 sessions later despite bribing players by gifting them cool magical items I created in my downtimes.

[@thecreepoid901]

Oh boy, wonder how Kobold would've acted if the DM tossed monsters with blindsense, like grimlocks, at them

[@Mvmrobots4030]

The fact he kept whining and questioned why drow had set up a campfire twice after the first question was answered that they were cooking tells me everything I need to know about him

[@Mightymajin]

Not gonna lie, a Gloomstalker Ranger that gets Devil's Sight is a perfect character to have in an Underdark campaign

[@ventricality6997]

Ive had DMs ban that subclass for campaigns set in the Underdark

[@silentdrew7636]

@@ventricality6997 what. The entire point of the subclass is underdark exploration.

[@psyberian]

@@silentdrew7636 but basically being invisible to all creatures is a bit OP. That ability never should have gotten out of UA

[@aceaszwall8333]

@@ventricality6997 That is fair enough but it will always be allowed at my own table

[@Milenos]

​@@ventricality6997 yeah, how dare people use subclass made for one thing, for that thing in particular!

[@alarkhar]

That campaign would have made me very sad. Y'see, I love kobolds. They're tiny, they're proud but cowardly, and you can pick them up and carry them. Sort of like goblins, only with less ears and more tail. Which makes an insufferable kobold character kinda depressing to me.

[@Smilley85]

If he roleplayed the kobold as insufferable but would've participated in both RP and combat, that would've been fine. Kobolds are supposed to be generally Evil bundles of energy with a superiority complex due to their (perceived) kinship to dragons. Being silent in RP and boasting in combat when things go your way and b*tching when it doesn't, that was the problem.

[@curabletoxin]

I once made a dragonborn bard with a charisma of 2 and strength of 18. He had a lute that he kept snapping the strings on. His only good abilities was just beating the snot out of our enemies with his lute. Yea in a roll dice way, he was useless. But in a role play way, he was pure entertainment.

[@Smilley85]

How did you get a Charisma of 2? Even if you roll all 1-s on your stat roll, you'd have Cha 4 due to the Dragonborns' natural +1.

[@DrPluton]

8 Constitution. One arm. "Why is the DM targeting me?" facepalm

[@jordanpeterson5140]

Never. Dump. Con.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

In my experience, DMs take high constitution as a challenge and make enemies so strong that they can drain half your hitpoints, while raging, in one attack.

[@jordanpeterson5140]

@@schwarzerritter5724 then you've had some terrible DMs.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@jordanpeterson5140 I suppose the DM wants everyone to roll on the D100 injury table every session and it is hard to get the Barbarian to roll on it.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@jordanpeterson5140 Although it might be because everyone rushes into melee, even if already limping along on a few hitpoint and DM thinks it is not fair the Barbarian rolls once for every 6 times the Rogue and Monk roll. I should add "one attack" was a bit of exaggeration, I meant "one turn". The Barbarian was on 7 hit points after 2 turns and was only still standing, because it was the first time in the entire campaign she had a shield equipped.

[@goontubeassos7076]

That guy, tried telling the DM he went on an adventure over the weekend and received shadow walk at will as a reward, and a castle with 2 ancient red dragons that guarded it. 2nd addition, he was fighter level 4 assassin level 10. That guy tried shadow jumping every action, the DM would stop and explain why that guy didn’t have shadow jump at will. That guy picked a fight with the wizard level 24, with staff of magi, and dagger with 1 wish that was once owned by that guy “ poker game loss” in real life. Wizard cast time stop, then continual light on that guy, used wish to make it brighter every time actions were taken to remove the light from that guy. Before anyone even the DM, could say a word, that guy blew up in anger tried tearing up character sheets, settled for ripping up D&D books, unknowingly his own books. That was the last time we seen him, the next 5 yrs of the campaign was so much better.

[@n8650]

> why did the kobold with one arm have a high str? I mean he wouldnt be the first to have one arm be quite a bit stronger than the other

[@JimmyBonez]

I see what you did there.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Why did the Kobold have one arm to begin with? Did the DM have a houserule characters get a Feat if they take a disability?

[@thekaiser3815]

He had a dumbell

[@twinodoom]

One less arm to train

[@stevencavanagh7990]

I had a player like this in my group, always playing a high Stealth Rogue (in it's self not a problem), but this guy would take the piss out of it, Not in a power gaming way but a That guy way. so one session he did his normal 'I hide in the shadows, and go scout the Bandits' From Experience I knew this would be just that, he would watch the bandits and noting else, he wouldn't go tell the party how many Bandits or try and influence the coming battle in anyway before it started. so Enter Cidier Goldhaven, the Blind Elf Divination Wizard with the Orb of fore sight. (Homebrew Crystal Ball). while she was truly Blind she had a 90ft Blind sight (Think DareDevil) granted her by the Ball. so as Rogue watched the Bandits, Cidier who was sitting on a chair looked at the Captain then at Rogue and said 'OH we have company, there early' and cast magic missile on Rouge. took a full 30 second before Rogue acted, and that was to flee back to the party. OH Cidier & The Captain Teleported out 3 round in to the combat. and are still a looming threat in the game

[@TexMeta]

I've combined it into powersimping. Trying to min/max that is crazy hard, especially if you can't get your hands on the artifacts, like the gamer girl bathwater, or the jar of farts.

[@commanderfuzbuz9322]

1.truesight 2. Tremorsense 3. Blindsight And an obvious 4. Light So many creatures in the underdark have all of these.

[@TalkativeHands]

Side note, being invisible doesn't mean you're untargetable. You still leave tracks, you make sound, and you smell. Meaning creatures can still attack an invisible creature at disadvantage. It's in the condition list. Also, dang. Gloom Stalkers are really do have an overpowered ability at third level if the settling is in the underdark.

[@alsenddrake7764]

This. Very much this. Plus if the enemy is smart once you've attacked, if you haven't used Hide they'll quickly try and flank you.

[@SeathThePawn]

Tracks can be negated pretty easily with a ranger tho with a Pass Without Trace preemptively casted. Fire and run over and over.

[@deepseastonecore3017]

How often do l make jokes about chemistry? Periodically.

[@mentalrebllion1270]

This story is actually why I became a gloomstalker. Not because I wanted and am a problem player. I just was like “what’s a gloomstalker?” and looked it up because of this story and realized that I not only enjoyed what was written for them but that they would do well in the module I was wanting to play in. I selected a drow and gloomstalker and made him a sweetheart who likes to look after the group. I always make sure to be helpful for my group and I even have used the dancing light cantrip at times. Often I’m the scout ahead person. The module I play in is also an arctic environment so most of the “day” has very little daylight. My group has been good to make most of their characters work well with each other, myself included….also I never dumped con. That seemed stupid. I also didn’t ever complain about not being able to use my umbral sight ability. Just seemed silly to do so. My character also favors the longbow and so I use it to take advantage of their darkvision abilities. It’s just how I play and it’s been received well by my group and I’ve been having a ton of fun with them. I enjoy all parts of how we play, roleplay, etc.

[@TheFinagle]

Some free advice for DM's and Players alike, If you have a potential couple dont try to set them up in game/through game and dont try to 'help things along' more than you are invited to than the less willing participant. Invite the 2 to play in the same campaign, get to know each other and let them become d&d friends and if they become d&d -more than friends- that relationship is up to them to build for themselves.

[@michaeledmunds7056]

The title is like an inversion of "I attack the darkness"

[@jasonroberts7558]

"Heart of gold, dumb of ass barbarian" That actually made me giggle.

[@matthewlaird5235]

Bragging about how powerful your Gloomstalker is in an Underdark campaign, is like bragging about breathing air.

[@amorasilverspark]

I've only ever made three power gaming characters, all in Pathfinder. First one was a rogue archer/sniper that could hit anything with an arrow within 1000 feet, sadly most of the time she was in dungeons with tight corridors and was essentially useless combat-wise. My 2nd was for the same campaign where I made a synthesist summoner where all their stats were essentially over 25, had a powerful 4 hit full attack with a 15 foot reach, and could grapple foes smaller then them via eating them. They were essentially a giant naga that could fit in medium spaces without restriction. My character ended up eating the main villain from a lucky attack of opportunity, and the villain failed every save and dropped their weapon when my character ate them. My third was where I had to play a healer role, so I picked a life oracle with specialization with a whip. They could move over 120 feet a turn, heal anyone they walked by/through, had a channel that would only heal her allies that was also 4 levels higher than her actual level, and had such a high armor class and resistances that nothing could harm her. Her only downside was that she could only speak a language that hardly anyone else knew in the world (Celestial). The rest of the team did not trust her until she showed how strong her healing abilities were. Combat was almost always 4 enemies for each one of our team, so all of us started to learn how to do a ton of AoE attacks and spells. No one eve got to less than half of their hp ever. This was also my favorite campaign ever since I had to do very little roleplaying (one of my weaker points). Eventually my character became the avatar of her goddess of the moon and was made immortal and ageless by the end of the campaign.

[@danielhounshell2526]

In Pathfinder it can be pretty dependent on how encounters are designed. You can have a party min maxed characters get absolutely destroyed by the right enemy combinations and setups if that party isn't playing tactically, or you can have a DM who isn't as good with doing that who repeatedly makes encounters that relatively mediocre character builds steamroll with little to no difficulty.

[@billnotice9957]

Yesterday. I had to boot a Power Gamer. I was really afraid the other three members would be upset. Turns out they upset at him for ruining the vibe. Suddenly everyone has a burst of energy. FATE decided (dm dice) to kill one of the players. It was still one of our better sessions. (The now NPC who I booted had a staff that had reincarnate spells. (Former PC was tricked it was raising dead spell.) Turned the human female thief into a Halfling female.)) Too funny. TY for this story. I felt like crap for booting anyone.

[@adamwelch4336]

The thing is even if his character is min maxed to the max the characters are not invicable no amount of ac or evasion will stop you from dieing strategy is just as important if your build can't work for the situation adapt to it!🤦🗡️

[@Jebbtube]

I play a gloomstalker hexblood ranger, and my DM has attacked me first in almost every encounter. I swear, he's trying to kill me.

[@TruckPlusTitan]

I'm always flabbergasted people would put up with this shit for longer than a session or two. At some point someone needs to develop a backbone and say something to the problem player. Stop being nice to one person at the detriment of the party. This is an excellent example of this. Pay attention guys. Confront shitty players and show them the door.

[@Burori1]

Neatly enough, in the game I play every other sunday, we have a Kobold Ranger/Warlock. He's a Blue Kobold, Drakenwarden, who has a pact with a creature he claims is an "UNSTOPPABLE FORCE!", but still requires to be saved, hahah. Based on the cues and the backstory we are aware of, we believe his patron is his little ward, Dott.

[@Center-For-I.E.D.Mismanagement]

Seems "That Guy" has never heard of TREMOR SENSE.

[@volrosku.6075]

and frankly an 8 Con darkness obsessed Ranger/Warlock Kobold actually sounds like a sweet character if roleplayed right. honestly yoink

[@stephenadams8712]

Let me guess gloomstalker ranger's favoured enemy was drow

[@nighthawk7050]

That makes sense though doesn’t it? It’s based on your character’s experiences

[@TigerKirby215]

Original writer here: he was using Tasha's variant features. Guess he didn't want to be THAT obvious.

[@OtherDAS]

@@TigerKirby215 So he DIDN'T do what your accusing him of, but close enough. Also, there is a difference between the enemy replying to a problem or tactic versus the DM replying to a tactic. It wasn't the enemy that tried to counter him, it was the DM -- and that just sucks.

[@DandDgamer]

Its not about the build, I never like to see this side of the discourse. That character can be so awesome, skirting the shadows, dealing damage or even crucially healing an ally when you go down, and then sometimes it's bright and other party members shine. A good player will naturally hold back from always hogging the spotlight or whining at the DM. Its the sense of entitlement that's a problem

[@Michaeljack81sk]

Kobold was insufferable but the way OP whines about him makes me suspect he is too

[@ziggymack2233]

As a power gaming gloomstalker ranger whose first character and year playing, I really try to avoid being this the of cringe dude. When my DM ‘ nerfs ‘ my character and stats I totally see why it’s done and find humbling ways around it. This is a fantastic cautionary tale that kinda also makes me fear playing with new people. I really lucked out with the people in my campaign. Tactics and role play are really balanced

[@DraupnirEX]

So he found a way to have permanent advantage, and he used a sling...

[@andreymontag]

He was really bad of a minmaxer >Volobold and not a vhuman >Volobolds have SUNLIGHT sensitivity. Not light sensitivity, I'm pretty sure. >Didn't juggle goodberries to heal the party >Dumped con >Didn't take rope trick for short rests >Just stay out of torchlight or stuff party members to rope trick and default kill all the enemies during travel without taking any time(if DM agrees to skip encounters that are won by default) >No conjure animals for actual damage >And finally. No social skills is the most suboptimal of all.

[@lichenlich]

ye idk I use dim & bright light- then darkness. not just light and dark

[@DashingSteel]

How That Guy played Gloomstalker Ranger: Nooo! You can't rake away my permanent advantage! You're nerfing me! Nooo! How Gloomstalker is MEANT to be played: They have light? Can't go Melee then. Let me find a position to shoot from real quick and assume your own positions. These idiots won't know what hit 'em.

[@TigerW0lf]

He was one armed and had a sling. That was his stupidity

[@Dragonspassage]

It sounds like your dm ignored that you still have to make stealth checks to be hidden after every attack or the enemy knows your location and can attack you just has disadvantage.

[@fairystail1]

they did mention how the ranger was hiding instead of attacking so I think that was being included just not mentioned because somewhat irrelevant

[@andrewjohnson6716]

Gloomstalker do not give away their position by attacking past second level.

[@alsenddrake7764]

@@andrewjohnson6716 Where do you see that? It doesn't say that. You're invisible, yes. Silent? No. As far as I know, once you attack, if you don't Hide they can deduct roughly where you are using other senses. Still imposes Advantage/Disadvantage though

[@murderousintent7838]

I could see his build being highly effective if he just took the Darkness spell and used Eldritch Blast

[@akun50]

Can't believe a min-maxing player who chose Warlock didn't pick up Eldritch Blast as a cantrip. Like, seriously, unless you had a +1 to +5 magical sling and magical sling bullets of +1 to +5, Eldritch Blast should've been a backup for times that he needed to go a bit more ham.

[@ronbaldwin5337]

If I was the DM I would have took the lol old and made him a part of the underdark in my world. As he traveled through the underdark he slowly became corrupted by the place, embracing the shadows as comfort. Never to come back to the light. He lives in the underdark now seeking out those who would defile is darkness with flame or light.

[@TigerW0lf]

Or umberhulks😈

[@jacobpinson2834]

The problem I find isn’t power gaming, or optimizing. The problems are: not recognizing situational abilities will be situational, not engaging in roll playing, rolling for stats, unchecked homebrew, and games not being balanced between combat, RP, and skill checks (and within combat not balancing between attacks and saving throws). Other than the first two I’m not being specific to this campaign but I find that usually one of those is the problem, not someone actually managing to make an actually OP character (level 20 shenanigans aside)

[@alsenddrake7764]

We have a Gloom Stalker who hates the Druid (and formerly Paladin) because they have to use a torch, but that's also only Jokingly "Hates" them. XD DM had started ocasionally tossing in enemies with Truesight and Blindsight enemies.

[@demonslife]

I really think there should be a playlist just dedicated to "drama" stories due to certain people or groups

[@slagmoth]

You can target creatures you can't see... that is why you have disadvantage to do so... you can target based on sound, Jeremy Crawford and several others have stated this themselves. Hidden creatures can't be targeted directly though so the Hide action was a good plan between attacks that would give away position each time though.

[@XenoMecha]

I think gatekeeping is worse than power gaming.

[@n8650]

Yeah? Obviously thats true but its not really relevant so

[@XenoMecha]

@@n8650 Oh, I thought since they were talking bout power gamers, and then saying how power gaming isn't the "right way" to play, and "tends to ruin games" that would be considered gatekeeping. My bad.

[@n8650]

@@XenoMecha Fair enough, weve all been there. Personally I feel like powergaming can work really well in the right group or really badly in the wrong one. But the way that this guy was doing it will turn any group into the wrong one very quickly.

[@XenoMecha]

@@n8650 I think we can all agree that the worst people to have in a game is a super strict RP paladin. All love dude, my opinions are worthless anyways, I'm just some random with an internet connection lol :)

[@bellumdorf3360]

Not sure how relevant but....are you sure you guys are thinking of power gaming and not min-maxing? EDIT: Reason I'm asking is when I think of power gaming I also tend to think of heavy rules lawyering and the like so I can at least understand why it would be gatekept, since some might not want to deal with that grinding their games to a halt.

[@dillonrichard6814]

I actually like power gamers, sometimes. If it is a group of them, then I as a GM can plan sessions to be challenging or easy, as needed. It is when there is one power gamer in a group of narrative gamers. That is when problems tend to arise. Or if you have a hyper focused character and complain whenever you are out of your element.

[@Darkman9000]

This simpering kobold should be forced to work for Den of the Drake, as Larry's intern

[@ProjectRedfoot]

That summary was funny

[@m.blotzkrieg1615]

Just finished Curse of Strahd recently and they party was crushing the encounters too easily so our DM had to find a way to make the final encounter more challenging. So he utilized Strahds lair abilities to pass through the ceiling to attack us and the retreat. After a couple rounds the party was basically sitting back with readied actions waiting for Strahd to attack again. The only thing I didn't like about this encounter was it felt like the melee characters became pretty useless unless Strahd came within striking distance (he never did). Moral of the story is DMs try to balance encounters to keep them challenging but fun.

[@CaptainHooch]

As a DM this is the first time I saw a video title on this channel and had a flashback to a previous character in my game. (kinda relieved this wasn't one of my players now lol)

[@RedLeif1]

If you put 8 in Constitution that's you're problem. It's nobody's fault but your own that that happened. Why would that be something someone'd complain about?

[@griffbloodax1005]

Did kobold never think to take the darkness spell considering his Devil's Sight? Solves his issue in combats that aren't his ideal win con.. this guy is not a min maxxer that's an insult to our kind! we would know how to counter the flaw =P

[@TigerKirby215]

Original writer here. Said to other people he only had 2 levels in Warlock I believe. We were level 7 and he had Extra Attack.

[@danielhounshell2526]

I see one problem with how the DM handled this. He let this guy run roughshod over his encounters for months on end, never hinting at the possibility of spending extended periods of time in well lit areas. He let this dude finish an entire specialized build over the course of several months before throwing in the first well lit encounter, and then making well lit encounters happen with increasing regularity from that point forward, even going so far as to have an entire dungeon without a single encounter where the kobold could use his gimmick. If you're planning these kinds of things for a setting where the natural assumption is that encounters will happen in darkness, you need to establish that early. Encounters like the one with the campfire should've been happening on occasion throughout the entire game, and should've been introduced within the first couple of sessions. If someone chooses to make this build anyway at that point that's on them, but having nothing but encounters in pure darkness for months on end and then punishing a player for planning around that is never going to go over well with the player who suddenly can't use his abilities.

[@andrewjohnson6716]

The sad thing about such players is that they usually have little relationships outside of the game. It is often very challenging to get rid of them.

[@OtherDAS]

Exactly. The DM could have indicated long before the whole build was done there was some times there was light in the area. To just have Light encounters AND the Boss Fight in the Underdark with light seems targeted. Should have done some foreshadowing, or a way for the light to be dealt with.

[@TigerKirby215]

Hi original writer of the story here. We knew for a long time that the final dungeon area would be well-lit, and I don't think it's that uncommon to have torches. It wasn't like the DM put us into the sun. We'd hardly come into light outside of the ordinary amount.

[@danielhounshell2526]

​​@@TigerKirby215 Lore-wise, in the underdark, just about everything has darkvision, rendering torches somewhat unnecessary. It's not unreasonable to expect dark environments in the underdark, and plan around that. To make matters worse it seems like the DM here started ONLY using well lit encounters. It would be one thing if this were an occasional obstacle that he'd have to adapt to, but when it's every encounter it starts to feel like the DM is punishing him for building around the environment he was playing in by intentionally designing every encounter so that he can never use his abilities. An example of doing this in a better way would be to have light sources be somewhat scattered, with only a couple of light sources illuminating an encounter, that way he and the party could plan around extinguishing the light sources within a reasonable amount of time. Doing that would make his abilities a bit harder to use, balancing things a bit, and it would do that without making the player feel like they wasted their time with their build.

[@chriskimball4893]

What's funny is this gloom stalker ranger is being a dumdum. Dude, it's a multi-headed cerberus. They don't rely on dark vision to see. Even if the area was dark, they have abilities like scent where they can locate foes based on, gasp, SMELL. So even if the room was dark, he'd mysteriously lose his precious advantage and the cerberus would be able to locate him. In fact, he might even die faster because he'd likely take risks he otherwise wouldn't due to the light, like getting right up next to the cerberus to attack, thinking he's invisible, only to get eaten in response.

[@berkaysln]

I love playing Gloom Stalker but I hate people playing it as if they're invincible

[@guyfawkes8873]

You can actually target a creature you can’t see unless the action specifically states that you have to see the targeted creature… so yea…

[@akmi1931]

Well no, because the requirement to target a creature is to be able to see them. Unless the action states otherwise

[@dogf421]

"power gaming" more like "so specialized they are useless"

[@kotypryor752]

Power gamers don't dump con

[@seangerroir7147]

Super early lol, love your videos man

[@vahidhashemi9684]

why the Kobold didn't take darkness spell is beyond me. he could easily do that, take up a shortbow and pepper enemies with arrows from inside his area of magical darkness. he could even drop the darkness on the light sources. but seriously, Gloomstalker is too cool to be a DnD PC. if you want to play it to it's core, you need to act like you are the main character and there will be situations where a careful Gloomstalker can solo a main quest on his own with no problems. I also take druidic warrior for control flames cantrips to snuff out lights from 60 feet away. but to be honest, Gloomstalker isn't fun to the party no matter how much a team player the Gloomstalker wants to be. it won't be fun for others unless gloomstalker nerfs himself.

[@NessaEllenesse]

I am in a campaign multi server sandbox campaign. I have a one PC I would call min maxed and even she cant keep up with the veteran players on the server. The rest of my PCs are based on wouldn't it be fun if I did... so far I have managed to get 2 of them from suboptimal to par

[@Zaint]

As a player that loves role playing kobold characters this story hurt. In pathfinder kobolds have -4 to strength, -2 to constitution and a +2 dexterity and light sensitivity. I know this, the group I play with know this. And I love kobolds all the the same. ((My group loves bashing kobolds too :) ))

[@forgot-to-log-out]

quite iteresting fact is that i am an optimizer, i really love to crezte op characters, but yet none of my actual characters which i play are op. Maybe optimized a bit? but not op fore shure. But i suspect that the reason behind it is that i played only 4 characters. 1. fighter 6 barbarian 2, 2. fighter 5 warlock 3, 3.fighter 11, 4. Warlock 14 (evil one-shot)... As you can see i love fighters and warlocks

[@movespammerguyteam7colors]

Oh, he felt he was being targeted specifically? As DM I would have been making perception checks as the Boss to find the little $#!+ who has been continuously pelting me and my crew with rocks, then fire blast his @$$.

[@Dem0n5]

watch at 1.5x speed for a voiceover that almost isn't annoying

[@henrysiemer5320]

One player I had joined a high level campaign as a bard. Now I knew him and his tendency to play characters as a joke, but mechanically are strong, and his bard was this way. However they had the bad luck of joining the campaign during a session I had been planning that included a monster with a powerful blinding ability. Bard was hit and with his spell selection was unable to undo the blindess. Several days later the Bard contacted me about changing his character, saying he wouldn't have the energy to RP the character the way he wanted, and I feeling bad about the last session agreed. So goodbye Bard, Hello Yuan-Ti Soradin who has saves out the wazoo, a variety of healing and buff spells, mostly used on himself. I would come to realize later that the player hated it when a character of his was "incapacitated" which meant prevented from being played the way he wanted, and would regularly try and change a character or leave a campaign if he is hindered.

[@Smilley85]

While it does suck to have a character hobbled like that, DMs should also try to take the party into account when preparing encounters. For instance, only use enemies with encounter-long debuffs like poison or blindness if you have a player with Lesser Restoration. That character will thank you too, as that spell is sooooo situational. And I'm saying this playing two characters with that spell and having used it a total of once - out of combat, to cure a sick NPC. Much to the chagrin of my DM, who had a sidequest set up to get a cure. 😛

[@henrysiemer5320]

@@Smilley85 The blindness debuff of this enemy only lasted a minute and outside of combat they had access to an NPC that could remove it. The enemy was killed by the time it wore off, as I had originally designed the encounter before the bard joined, and I could have adjusted after he joined. Still, my point was there will be players like like. For example the same player literally removed himself halfway through a game session, in a different campaign and DM, because his character was cursed to hold a +1 sword instead of the halberd he built his character around. His RP reasoning was that his character left to find a cleric that could remove it. We had just entered a dungeon and were on a time table and the DM warned that the time to leave and find a cleric meant the goal was impossible. Player said fine, rest of us could stay while he left. Rest of the game he sat there on his phone, apparently building a new character to meet up with us in the dungeon.

[@Smilley85]

@@henrysiemer5320 Slight overreaction by the Bard player then, in any case. Having your character blocked for one encounter for a very specific reason is no reason to completely chuck it, IMO. Then again, this is what I meant by "encounter-long debuffs". 10 rounds are enough for most boss encounters, and being at a constant disadvantage and/or locked out of most of your abilities sucks. As for the polearm master Fighter, while I understand the player's frustration, leaving the rest of the party was kind of a dick move, both in character and out. Then again, most cursed weapons become active when you attune to or wield them. So if the character did that, and there was at least some indication that it was not just a normal +1 sword, or they did so before the party wizard/bard could Identify, then it's on them and they should live with the consequences.

[@Grizzdrop]

I've known people like this in games I've run in the past. I'm not afraid to kick them when they get that annoying and I insist that all complaining be in public so that everyone knows what's up rather than people holding it in for the sake of group

[@mj1mj3]

8min in and I'm still waiting for the storyteller to explain how the Kobold is being a power gamer. Everything they've said so far just sounds extremely reasonable, like this is exactly what this character should be doing.

[@andrewjohnson6716]

Yes, someone who was found surviving in the under dark despite everything being more powerful being optimized for avoiding being detected seems not only reasonable, but would be naturally selected for.

[@Crushanator1]

Refusing to use their spell slots to heal the visible players, despite being a Warlock who gets all their spells back on the short rests the party is forced to take to spend hit dice is the sign you were looking for, plus all the bragging. They're being a huge dick, and care about their own character at the expense of the other human beings at the table with them. "Power gamer" isn't a strategic or optimal character choice, it's representative of a player issue

[@mj1mj3]

@@Crushanator1 OP specifically says that they won't cast cure wounds with their second Warlock slot, I guess they for some reason don't realize that fiend warlocks don't have that spell? Also if he's a 3rd lvl Ranger, and at least a 2nd lvl Warlock due to having Devil's sight, with his 8 in con bro's only got like 27 hp, no shit he's playing smart and not purposely negating his biggest advantage by not just standing directly in the light, that would be incredibly stupid

[@TigerW0lf]

​@mj1mj3 but once it's no longer favorable 100% in his favor, he starts throwing a temper tantrum like a child

[@ExaltedJoker]

I've only power gamed just to spite the dm who consistently kept one shoting all my character I built for role play purposes. Sure they aren't optimized, they had flaws and I enjoyed it. But the dm kept consistently hitting me for my hp and alway in a surprise atack after some Rp and always my character. After his most recent kill. I decided I was done but I got revenge before I left. I built a character that would one shot his big bad. I did and he wasn't happy about it. What he gets I say.

[@williamblackfyre4866]

That guy sounded like a pain in the ass...but it also sounded like the cleric/monk was butthurt about his build. That was alot of complaining because he made something powerful that fit the campaign and they also seemed to take some enjoyment out of his character getting the sit end of the stick. I don't think I'd want to play with either of them 😕

[@LokiToxtrocity]

No please I'm a tiny Kobold I'm barely a threat, if you shoot me I will die! XD

[@thekaiser3815]

Kobold tactics 101 protect your tenders, 102 yell "NOT IN THE FACE!!!" to protect yourself 😁

[@Forever-GM-Dusty]

It's people like this who give us minmaxers a bad rep. It's one thing to make a competent and powerful character, but another thing entirely to specifically build to counter the setting and then complain the moment the dm tries to give you an actual challenge. If the dm lets you easily smash through every encounter, there's no tension or drama to the fight. Sure, it can be fun once in a while to have an encounter where you absolutely clean house and feel like a badass, but that can't be every fight

[@alheimianservant1499]

Hail Fizzerban!!!

[@drakox9603]

Let me just say this I've come up with more than my fair share power builds and that's only because I wanted to see how many clickity-clacketies I can have on the table I do occasionally play them but that's typically for one shot one shots where nobody really minds and nobody gets hurt most of the time they're in a PVP one shot and then I just Target the person who looks about as strong as my character and kill him but if I'm a DM and you bring a power character to me I just say notify the party because then they know the reason why I have to scale up the monsters difficulty and intelligence it's so that would then I could keep the game balanced and have fun while you guys also have fun I don't have a problem with power gamers who aren't toxic if they just want to make a capable bill that's completely understandable but for those who are whiners I told them humbly you can either make a different build or you could get out of my campaign

[@Gazing-09]

... I am so f*cking ready.

[@Lothmar22]

Shoulda taken eldritch blast.

[@verdanthi818]

Insta click!

[@zomx-hj7mt]

Yes, he was being a bad player but why didn't he have the foresight to take darkness. He even had devil sight

[@TigerKirby215]

Original writer here. Said to other people he only had 2 levels in Warlock I believe. We were level 7 and he had Extra Attack.

[@tieflingrouge6000]

For me the min maxing wasnt the problem in fact i will give credit that was good thinking but he ended up complaining because he couldn't always get advantage oh and pack tactics is only for melee so keep that in mind

[@Milenos]

what min max? he dumped con, didnt take darkness spell. Took magic stone instead of eldritch blast. nothing about this character is min maxed, but him complaining about having no contingency plan for his one trick is very cringe.

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

This is just one of those optimancer + online gamer situations.

[@Milenos]

nothing about his character was optimized tho, don't put optimized and powergamer in the same basket.

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

@@Milenos Power gamers are optimizers. But optimizers are not power gamers

[@kingwildcat6192000]

So... My own horror story... On a long dead discord pbp (play by post) server created by my friend and in that server lived 1 gloomstalker battlemaster assassin lizardfolk played by someone I considered a friend and possibly a smurf for a different "that guy" who played a lizardfolk as well and had plans to seduce an aboleth ooc and tried to anally r**e a male abyssal shark merfolk (forgot the race name, it starts with a S). Turns out the dude was actually my friend/the server owner... The dude pretended to be a different person for some odd reason (he claimed to avoid favortism/be targeted) and had me start a chat with the Gloomstalker to degrade me for thinking he was a smurf for the problem player... Still lowkey bothers me to this day.

[@bee5464]

As a power gamer myself, I honestly feel insulted that people like kobold get branded as such. Power gamers can have both a good character and good math on their side, while kobold had neither, and he was an ass.

[@wolfyblackknight8321]

sound to me like the build wasn't the best thought out if its only weapon was a sling with 30 foot range. and its whole gimmick is needing to be invisible to get within 30feet to be close enough to do anything. maybe I'm not fully grasping the rules for some of the game but couldn't a warlock take eldritch blast as a cantrip it has a range of 120 feet can be done one handed and would be useful for hitting anything over 30 feet from you. and he did multiclass into warlock for eldritch sight I'm assuming alternatively maybe find a way to regrow the lost limb ether from the paladin, if they are high enough level to cast the needed spell or as a quest reward or something. have two arms get a bow some arrows and you know snipe from a safe distance way from the others so they can use light to not be handicapped just so one character can use its gimmick. maybe I'm lacking context from not having played enough first hand or them having house rules or something but it sounds like the build was very sub optimal even at its alleged specialty neat concept tho could be fun to make a kobold that is super paranoid of light but not quite as obnoxious and maybe a bit smarter having something to use at range so it could snipe as well as be the ultimate night scout or designated night watch person

[@Derogue23]

Did he play the bagpipes?

[@unodos2647]

Why would you dump con 💀

[@demonoftheweb]

Why in the 9 hells did he not use EB its a bloody cantrip? The power gamer is a whiner baby. I've played a Gloom Stalker before had a blast down in the underdark but the real problems for me and my group was when I got knocked. So they had to light up some torches and search the battlefield to find me before I bled out. We finial figure out a way around this by using Arcane Mark and had it only visible to the caster. Now out of character I knew it said "Here be the Cat." and I thought it was funny but in character Smoking Mountain of Bright River never knew. If you have not guessed I was playing a Tabaxi.

[@dead_vibes]

So he's useless for 12 hours a day, or thinks he's useless for 12 hours a day?

[@reloadpsi]

If you're gonna power build, at least think of cool ways to justify it in character.

[@jordanpeterson5140]

That's my view as well. As a DM, I ask my players to justify it in character. They give me something even remotely plausible, we're good to go.

[@thecharmingone3931]

The only way the guy could've been a worse problem player was if he inserted his personal life problems into the game.

[@joeyfish5]

Is it just me or anyone else cringed at this guy getting the title of a "power gamer" but having a absolutely trash build?

[@122007shay]

power gamer ? with 8 con and 12 str

[@henrysiemer5320]

Yes, because it wasn't about "physical power" but the stacking of multiple synergistic abilities to create an optimal outcome. In this case relying on the Gloomstalker's ability to be unseen in the dark.

[@122007shay]

@@henrysiemer5320 yea but having 12 con and 8 str would have been overall better. And the combo is just redundant since advantage doesn't stack

[@BunnyWitchcraft]

The world that dm made sounds rad. Sucks to have a sour player spoiling it lmao