AMC 360 V8 cleaning and discussion, update on the AMC 304 build too! From Lucore Automotive

[@LucoreAuto]

Who DOESN'T build 2 motors for the same car, at the same time? I mean... this is normal right? What do YOU all think of this 360 vs 304 thing? Am I just completely nuts?

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

It's not unusual for me to have a spare motor/trans sitting ready to go on the sidelines for the daily driver. Why not?

[@LucoreAuto]

@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 built and ready to go? Or a "core" just in case? Either way thank you for making me feel better! :)

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

@@LucoreAuto I was able to locate a good runner, went through a bop th350 and bolted that on. About twice/yr I put a socket on the crank bolt and give it a spin. Mostly complete aside from front accessories.

[@LucoreAuto]

@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 well maybe I'm just as weird as you then ;) Still not totally sure how this saga is going to turn out but.. both are moving forward as of now!

[@anthonygodoy4236]

Any suggestions on a 1980 jeep cj7 with a 304 on eBay headers and simple power upgrades it seems like an RV cam was installed but not sure about the rest

[@LucoreAuto]

What would you like to know? Can make all sorts of suggestions depending on what you are looking for.

[@jusdoit7802]

304 iron head. i cringe everytime you say scrap it. Dont scrap it, someone will buy it for a daily driver.

[@LucoreAuto]

It's looking like those original 304 cast iron heads are going to live again! Have them at the shop to do a little porting polishing and gasket matching :)

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

Hi LUCORE, I have never invested in any of the AMC V-8 ALUMINUM Heads I have always done my own VALVE JOBS ( with old fashioned grinding stones ) / 30 degree lead-in / 45 degree Seat / maybe 70 degree throat cut / I also do my own KNURLING inside the VALVE GUIDES if they are intact I cut my Guides for decent late model Valve Stem Seals I also cut my own Spring Seats for a decent set of Dual Springs or Springs & Dampeners MATCH-PORT the INTAKE & EXHAUST Ports to the Gaskets If (if) you decide to replace the VALVES - I use the 327 Chevy 375 HP Swirl Polished / Stellite Faced Stock VALVES (which have a smaller Valve Stem = 5/16" vs 3/8" Stem for more FLOW ) if you decide to replace the VALVES ... & Valve Guides The VALVES are the same HEAD size on both the INT & EXH as the AMC only LIGHTER :-) with smaller stems Also the CHRYSLER "LA" Hydraulic lifters from RHOADES also take the lump out of whatever Hydraulic CAM you decide on (at an idle ) but fully PUMP-UP at RPM to take advantage of your FULL Lift & Duration IMHO COOP ...........................................................

[@leonardwalters154]

The 304 is still worth it, and the 304 can be bored up 125 th over ,work the heads, and get roller rockers with a cam then just have fun with shocking people with it

[@LucoreAuto]

I appreciate the encouragement of my mental illness! :) Even with this news I STILL feel like this 304 has potential to be a good piece of machine for not a TERRIBLE amount of money. The insanely thick cylinder wall are also really really tempting in case I wanted to shove a bit of boost in there... :)

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

@@LucoreAuto Encouragement? He's enabling your bad habits! ;)

[@LucoreAuto]

@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 lol indeed he is and we love him for it :) Makes it feel less weird if we aren't the ONLY ones thinking this is a good idea :)

[@jackdale9831]

Put a dry-sump oiling system in, put a 401-crank in a 360, and bore & stroke to 420. "surprise" a LOT MORE people! Because the 401 is dimensionally-Equal to the 304, leave the "304" sticker from some air-cleaners on. "An 'un-dry-sumped' AMC V-8 is a "ticking-time-bomb" for a spun bearing."

[@kennethcohagen3539]

304’s can be bored out to 3.875” according to AMC. If you’re going to buy decent pistons you might as well do it right and bore that sucker out!

[@BillyandLindeGrossett]

Im building a 304. I'd be interested in buying those 20 over pistons

[@torreslarry6837]

on"cost cutting" sell the 304 to one that"Wants-To" bore the shit out of it- they are a robust block and someone "wants-to" bore it out,, 360 WILL-BE BUILT,, i live in K-town & when it"s AMC i"ve seen it all,, do the 360,, ok bye"

[@warbed1]

Oh just a comment. don't all cars from the factory have 3 angle valve jobs. AMC being a bit different with the intake being at 30deg

[@kennethcohagen3539]

Go with the Edelbrock’s, unless you can machine them yourself. The oe heads were the second best flowing heads of all the stock small block heads until aftermarket heads became available.

[@3904Speed]

I must confess, We have an extra engine(343), Short edelbrock story, ordered heads waiting 2 months> Said they had in stock, well they only had 1 !, LOL They sent me NHRA heads at no extra charge.

[@LucoreAuto]

Well that's not fair! I want some errors in my favor! The Edelbrock heads are really really REALLY tempting even in just the stock form they are a great product, and leave a lot of upgradeability too.

[@warbed1]

Saw the Nuremburg ring race with the Spirits. Cool race and the little car did very well winning first and second in its class. OH, wait this just in. OH, ok Yes just confirmed. They did come in 1 and 2 in their class. Yes, they just happened to be the only cars that day in their class but who pays attention to the little things. Love the work you're doing and I want the exhaust manifolds from the 360 and the 090 heads send them my way please.

[@3904Speed]

My opinion, just a little nuts? Just wait until you get the AMX racing, someone may send you to AMC rehab. LOL Build the 360, safley store 304 for future owner or later build, The new owner may want a certain build or you may change your build later, keep options open. Great job, Godspeed and good luck.

[@LucoreAuto]

Oh I already feel like I've got around the bend of sanity on this project. At the point when I was originally just getting the project purchased and running for $2500 we were doing JUST fine. Then we realized the "spare motor" was injured and needed fixing and ... yeah ... now we're here. New owner?! What's this new owner stuff? This little AMX is going to my track car until it dies or gets retired! ;)

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

The rubbing mark inside the timing cover - This isn't a witness mark from a bumper inserted in the end of the cam to keep the cam from walking forward (and thus ignition timing jumping around, etc)? The Buick engines of the day used this kind of button with spring for this purpose.

[@LucoreAuto]

I know what you are referring to and it doesn't look to ME like a button or bumper mark. Looks more like metal on metal scoring. When we pulled the cover there wasn't anything on the end of the camshaft or loose in the cover. PLUS we found cam bearing material in the block so... maybe it moved around enough to make marks? I'll toss a photo up in our community tab on here.

[@LucoreAuto]

@@michaelhoward5372 I actually have watched the video you are talking about and totally makes sense. Guessing what I'm seeing on the cover is EXACTLY what they were referring to. Posting a photo in our community section right now so people can see the markings.

[@leonardwalters154]

Power nation just aired their 304 build, and more than doubled the h.p

[@LucoreAuto]

Ohhhh really!? Thanks for the heads up!

[@darrenshaw923]

Build the 360 / Leaves you way better options for power down the road / just My two cents --

[@LucoreAuto]

The 360 is definitely the wiser choice and the one it seems most people are in favor of. It's an all around better platform with better technology and MUCH better potential. No arguing that. If we go the 360 route, rebuild the cast irons and run those or go Aluminum Edelbrock?

[@MegaJavelin1970]

You do not need aluminum heads for 350+ hp on that engine the factory head will easily get you there. If you feel like aluminum I preferre the Indy Cylinder Head flows more than the edelbrock.

[@morton2200]

What is the minimum bore size to clear the valves on Edelbrock AMC heads for the 304? In one of the jeep forums someone suggested 3.778 was the go/no go. So basically .030 over 304 could clear the valves although you would have valve shrouding. .060 over 304 (3.81" bore) would likely clear and not shroud the valves to bad. Anyone ever measured for sure with the Eddy heads on a 304?

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

When I installed 360 / 401 HEADS on my 304's -- I simply NOTCHED the Top of the Block ... of course the "SHROUDING" was obvious ... but ... back in the day --- just DOING something out of the usual was worth the HIT in Flow ... I'm not sure if the performance GAIN from LARGER Intake & Exhaust VALVES overcame the SHROUDING effect putting those Large VALVE Heads on a stock 3.75" bore engine ... it ran ... & was fun & used 100% stock parts ... ....................... I've also gone the OPPOSITE direction ... and placed 304 HEADS on 360 engines for low RPM Torque in my JEEP CJ-5 trail riders COOP ..........................................

[@jusdoit7802]

You might or might not know being a AMC noob, the distributor and cam gears need to be a matched set, so dont go mixing those up. You could get into gear eating.

[@thebigtee9489]

Build the 304! You hit the nail on the head when you said its "different", will make it a more interesting build seeing how you do it.

[@LucoreAuto]

It's really one of those, it doesn't make sense, but it could be cool kind of moments at this point. Yes, building the 360 is easier and honestly might even be cheaper than the 304. BUT, everyone knows that already and knows what kind of performance you can get out of the 360. We'll know later today just how much more expensive the 304 build got. Fingers crossed but glad you'll be paying attention!

[@chrismedlicott2579]

The 360: i just rebuilt my 360. Kept the heads with a 3 angle valve job on new seats. Springs ex Jegs to suit extra lift Regound the cam to about the same as a comp 268. Bore was 40 over with 7 thou wear at the tops. Cleaned it up at 45 thou over and set of wiseco forged pistons with 21cc dishes rather than stock 28cc. Compression from forged pistons instead of $$$$ heads. Huge improvement. Btw use an aftermarket not oem cam gear set. Oem snuck in 2 degrees of cam retard in about 1980. I am running 2 degrees advanced. Edelbrock 1405 carb and performer air gap manifold. Makes my wagoneer get and go hard.

[@stanwatkins1877]

Did you use the Rollmaster timing chain/gears set. It enables the 2 degree advance.

[@chrismedlicott2579]

@@stanwatkins1877 yes it was set up on the 2 degrees advanced keyway which proved pretty accurate on the timing wheel. It was a comp cams timing set.

[@robwilliams3484]

Stick the 304 parts on the shelf, build the 360, you can go back to it later if you can’t shake the itch.

[@LucoreAuto]

Alrighty, you are certainly in the majority in that answer. Now, would you rebuild and run the cast iron 360 heads OR opt for the more expensive aluminum Edelbrock heads?

[@robwilliams3484]

@@LucoreAuto If the budget is tight, iron heads. If you want bragging rights and think they'll make more power, Edelbrocks. I don't have a machine shop I already know and trust so I would probably just buy the Edelbrocks and be done with it but $2,200 on Summit is a lot of money. "Valve springs are designed for use with a flat tappet camshaft." are you staying with a flat tappet cam?

[@LucoreAuto]

@@robwilliams3484 the budget is... fluid at this point. Not looking to get too totally crazy on anything at this point BUT we most certainly aren't going to skimp on necessary items on the build. Especially since this motor/car are going to see some serious racing life, do it right the first time versus doing it twice for WAY more ;) However yes... $2200 for a set of heads IS a little bit painful but could be worth it and give us some serious potential for performance. On the camshaft yes we'll likely be staying flat tappet. Keeps it more true to the original form and to be quite honest.. we kinda prefer the old school sound/setup of the flat tappets.

[@robwilliams3484]

@@LucoreAuto I probably would go with the Edelbrock heads in that case then, I had forgotten about your racing plans.

[@mikeworley2009]

I rebuilt a 73 304 from my Javelin sst, complete build..total about 4k back in 95. It had forged pistons, new rods, Edelbrock performer and a Holley 600 carb. It had appr 300 hp and chirpped the tires into 3rd..

[@LucoreAuto]

See THAT sounds almost perfect! Don't need to make this thing a 500whp monster, it's going to live as a road race car and backroads machine. What did you do for pistons and rods? Just get a set of 360 rods, and pistons from...? I'm interested in your formula!

[@danielvazquez719]

If the the pistons are good why do you need to change them ?

[@LucoreAuto]

Because the bore on the cylinders is too worn and in order to get a clean and straight cylinder wall we had to make the hole larger. You can get away with some of it, but the amount of metal we had to take out means we have to go with a piston that's 30 thousandth of an inch bigger.

[@denniswhitehead4133]

Something to consider, the 1969 Trans Am racing Javelin was only a 302 and put out 450 HP, so just what can you get out of that 304, Food for thought.

[@LucoreAuto]

As I understand it the TA motors were actually destroked 360s so they had the bigger valve/better heads. From what I've learned there doesn't really ever seem to have been an ACTUAL 304 performance motor? Maybe I'm incorrect, if so please teach me!

[@denniswhitehead4133]

@@LucoreAuto No, back then Trans Am rules limited the engine displacement to 305 CI

[@denniswhitehead4133]

@@LucoreAuto You are correct, 304 was not considered a performance motor but guys tweeked them and did get some pretty good results. Another thing to consider is weight. Not important on the street, but a big deal in road racing. Oh, I road raced for almost 25 years, but in a Formula car

[@LucoreAuto]

@@denniswhitehead4133 from everything I've found the TA 304s had the bigger valve heads and had destroked motors to get them down to the 305 displacement from 360 instead of using actual 304 blocks. Have you found information otherwise? If those motors were actual cast 304s that would definitely make things more interesting!

[@LucoreAuto]

@@michaelhoward5372 you are very correct, and in the back of my mind I imagine if/when I do the 304 to 360 swap it may live on in a CJ. Unfortunately you build motors for trucks/jeeps way different from how you build road racing motors. Those guys are all about low end torque, where as we racing guys are looking for higher end horsepower and RPM. But... we may not get TOO crazy with this build so it could be a "best of both worlds" kind of scenario?

[@totalyep]

DUI makes a nice drop in distributor for these. I’ve run one on my Wagoneer and it’s been great.

[@LucoreAuto]

We actually are seriously looking at one of those, not really looking like we want to trust ANY of these factory units. Would love to have a good solid option that won't get crazy expensive or require a complicated ignition system.

[@totalyep]

Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing my fuel injection guy said the Ford stuff has a real weak spark. He recommended the DUI unit. Just a 12v hookup. They also make a nice set of high performance wires for the 360 too.

[@LucoreAuto]

@@totalyep we typically build our own wire sets so we can make the runs exactly how we like them but we'll definitely check into their products. Keeping a good spark especially up higher into the revs is going to be really really important on this build. Moving that peak power higher in the RPM range = more power! :)

[@XA351GT]

I'd buy the Edelbrock heads . That's what I plan with my 360

[@LucoreAuto]

It's really REALLY hard to argue against this as the proper decision. The cost/benefit just seems to make more sense versus pouring money into the cast heads even though they CAN be good once rebuilt.

[@jimmy_olds]

Not sure about Jegs but Summit Racing offers house brand camshafts and lifters (which I’ve successfully used on several SBC builds) ... just to help with that budget 304

[@LucoreAuto]

There are definitely waaaaaay more options out there essentially ANY SBC build than there are for virtually any kind of AMC platform. Curse of being a bit... "different" but still a reasonably common platform. Gets even more difficult to find performance oriented 304 items versus the 360/390/401. We're having some conversations with Howard about a cam setup currently for the 304... so... we'll see!

[@jimmy_olds]

@@LucoreAuto being an Olds guy I feel your pain. That’s why I was surprised there was Summit brand AMC cams. Howard’s is great, I used them with a 403 build a few years ago. Mike has a good relationship with them and they were open to emailing with me as well, so that was appreciated. I know Mike too, he’s got a 455 of mine now. Lol

[@LucoreAuto]

@@jimmy_olds Mike is a great guy and AWESOME for us to have as a business partner! Done many MANY motors/blocks/heads for us, at just about any moment the last 3-4 years he has at least 1 project build of ours up there :) He had a hand on our Olds 455 we showed off in the Big Block Wars video on here also actually :) As a Pontiac guy, believe me I know the pain! One of these days I'll build something Chevy powered and enjoy cheap plentiful parts!

[@genedavis759]

Have you checked cam journal alignment ?

[@LucoreAuto]

On the 304 yes and it's good to go, on the 360 no not yet. It will head to the machine shop tomorrow morning to be checked over.

[@DiscGolfDom23]

As far as ignition goes on AMCs, HEI isn't worth it. Those modules like to go bad and some say that the spark isn't strong. Since these V8s run Ford Duraspark modules, the most common thing people do is get the cap, rotor, plug wires, and TFI ignition coil for a 1984 F-350 with a 460 V8. Everything is plug and play except the coil connector to the wiring harness is different. HEI is a little bit of a cleaner installation, but all the AMC guys claim the Ford parts do better than the HEI. Since the money difference is that significant, the 304 seems like it would be worth going for. There's a guy on IJFSA.org and TheAMCForum who builds excellent AMC engines, SC397. Once I find the post I'm thinking of I'll link it to you. He regularly builds excellent 304s, 360s, and stroker AMC 383s. theamcforum.com/FORUM/tried-and-true-304-builds_topic88984_page1.html That's a good thread to start with until I find the right one I'm thinking of.

[@MegaJavelin1970]

300hp out of a 304 is actually pretty easy and actually cheaper than you think. There is a alternative pistons for a 304 that if you build more than a few you can save some bucks and increase compression. Powernation 304 build was really a waste of money for no more power than what they made. But it was neat to watch.

[@jackdale9831]

It is STUPID to build a 304! Penske, when racing AMC 304s in trans-am racing in the '70s, experienced 23 consecutive main-bearing FAILURES, until he did TWO things: he shit-canned the AMC block, in favor of a Chevy-based TRACO 304, but more importantly, he switched to dry-sump oiling, because AMC, instead of fixing its oiling problems, merely cast MORE 360 AMC blocks {which could be stroked to 390 or 401, because the bores are identical}, in the event of warranty-claims. And no matter WHAT you do, if you do NOT "dry-sump" the engine, your build WILL FAIL with spun-bearing(s), down the road, SOONER than other brands. Use after-market alloy Edlebrock RPM heads. If you spend alot with Jegs, Jegs should get you a set. Get a 390/401 crank. Easier to get 400Hp from a 390/401, than the smaller 360. In 1970, 450hp was possible from a Trans-Am racing 304, but after several races, it'd get rebuilt, so if you don't want to keep rebuilding your 304, DO NOT "hot-rod" a 304. YOU'd be CRAZY to build either the 304/360! Just "factory-stroke" your 360 into 390/401, and with 40 more cubic inches, it'll be easier to make 400+ hp. You CAN get another 19 cu" from your 360/390/401 with the larger crank, and a bore-job, ending-up with 420cu", --almost a Pontiac 421cu"[376Hp with tri-carbs in '65].. Some idiots re-build Chevy 305s, when they SHOULD put an LS in their Camaros/Monte-Carlos/whatever, because a 305 LOOKS-like a 350, but the 350 can be bored & stroked to 396/402, which is a LOT more FUN than a 305. Just a 350" is 2-3 secs QUICKER than a lame-ass 305 "boat-anchor." Thank-you for building AMCs, but my 390 '68 AMX once had to be rebuilt--no dry-sump oiling. I had just "woken-it up", it was idling @ 800-1000 rpm, and it spun a bearing. Dry-sump any performance AMC, or rebuild it frequently, your choice.

[@warbed1]

WOW Dale, a 360 has a different bore and stroke then a 390/401. also 360 have cast crank and rods, 390/401 are forged. Also 390/401 have provisions for 4 bolt mains, 360 don't unless the rare thick walled 360. The Trans Am 304 was only in cubic inch . It used a thick wall 360 that was de-stroked to be legal for T/A racing. Max was 305 ci. A dry sump was also used from the beginning as like most T/A Cars at the time. So for road racing circuit you have to be below 305 ci. So, hold up on the criticism because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[@thatdudeinorange2297]

Dare to be different 😉 Even if there's only one make of performance pistons its not like you can fit more than one set at a time 😁

[@LucoreAuto]

Oh we definitely don't mind being different, but different isn't ALWAYS good/wise/sane ;) There definitely don't seem to be many good options for 304 pistons, especially when we're talking performance pistons. Technically we could do a custom set of pistons but those are $650 or so... and if going that far just go with some forged rods... and.. and there goes the "budget build" idea! One of the main arguments for the 360 vs 304 is the much better selection of parts and performance rebuild options. There just honestly isn't much out there for the ole 304. Tracked down a set of pistons we THINK will work yesterday so... we'll see!

[@darrenshaw923]

Love me sum AMC !

[@LucoreAuto]

It's a whole new experience for us and we're diving straight into the deep end!

[@genedavis759]

Have you looked into AMC 327 ?

[@LucoreAuto]

Hmmmm noooo? Tell me more!

[@markzenoex]

@@LucoreAuto you know where to find a 327 AMC! lol

[@LucoreAuto]

@@markzenoex lol well that's not exactly in my budget right now, I'm already upside down and insane :) But a 327 AMC really DOES have a good ring to it especially if it RPM'd like a 327 Chevy ;)

[@denniswhitehead4133]

@@LucoreAuto The AMC 327 came out in 1956, it was an option engine for the Rambler Rebel and Rambler Ambassador . Engines were rated at 255 hp. Engines were discontinued in 1967. I really don't think this is what you would be looking for.

[@LucoreAuto]

@@denniswhitehead4133 ahhhh! That would explain why I never heard of it. I'm still a bit of a newbie on the AMC stuff so, lots of generational stuff to learn. Thanks for the info, I'm definitely looking for something less unique and of the younger AMC generations :)

[@fredschmidt6802]

Your building an amc . Your nuts . As far as what is best you must decide what you really want to do . If you want # matching collector car then build the 304 . If you want to be different build the 304 . If it was me I would race the 360 , but slowly rebuild the 304 . It's the best of both worlds . Don't think about money . The cheapest way is to build a 360 chrysler . As far as the heads you could have the machine shop clean & do the guides on the heads then rebuild the rest at home .

[@LucoreAuto]

Lol your first part does feel a little close to home. Having just joined the AMC world on this project, will confirm there are some INTERESTING people in the AMC Community! Honestly though, they've almost to a person been great and supportive. I've asked tons of people and the honest answer seems people don't really care about the numbers matching thing on these cars, and really neither do I. This car wasn't purchased to be a show car, just a fun project that rapidly morphed into a possible vintage race car. The 360 makes a LOT more sense to build as a racing platform, better unit all around, better parts availability, better support and understanding for performance builds. But easier isn't always the answer we go after :) The only 2 reasons the 304 is even still in the picture are the fact the heads have already been rebuilt/upgraded previously so will save a lot of money, AND it would be pretty weird/unique/cool to have a 304 powered race car given the heritage of the 79 AMX. On the money front, always have to worry about money or we end up going totally overboard! And nooooo way this thing gets a Chrysler 360 in it, AMC all the way in this beauty!

[@jackdale9831]

@@LucoreAuto You want to "do something WILD", find two aluminum AMC 196 cu" flat-head 6 cylinders. Weld the two heads on one block @60-degrees. Hack-up some motorcycle [--Suzuki?]heads to get "alloy" and "4-valve", making an all-alloy, 60-degree, DOHC AMC V-12 393cu" {--or larger}. Blow-minds throughout the World.

[@jackdale9831]

Do that, and Lucore Auto/LucoreRacing will NEVER, NEVER, EVER be forgotten, even if your V-12 only puts-out 400Hp.

[@fredschmidt6802]

@@jackdale9831 ? Little confused here

[@bikinicarwash6320]

who builds 2 motors at the same time? lol you and your projects sometimes i worry about you!

[@LucoreAuto]

Well, I mean, there's probably at least 1 other person :) But thank you for worrying about me!