An Eastern Orthodox Case for Universalism - Hunter Coates

[@JoeSwanson-d5y]

Great vid. Gonna pick up the book too

[@warrenroby6907]

Another example of the growing case for Universalism. I cannot keep up with all the books on the subject coming out to say nothing of the many excellent older works. It is an idea whose time has come. How did the church not fully embrace it for so long?

[@IrishEddie317]

Very simple. The church can't control people who are not scared spitless.

[@TheBrunarr]

Looking forward to listening to this

[@wierdpocket]

I'd love to hear more about Suan's position specifically contra Hunter, in all charity of course. I think an essential component of disagreement will have to be ecclesial in nature (obviously) and might actually circle back around to the same criticisms that Suan has against Protestant perspectives on Scripture. After all, the primary arguments here are based on readings of Scripture. How can we do this properly without the Magisterium? This would be an interesting dialogue.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

It could be done by using logic.

[@kainech]

I have another book to buy. You're hurting my pocket book.

[@stephenbailey9969]

From Origen to Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac the Syrian, and so on, there were numerous of those that contemplated the love of God and who posited an eventual universal salvation. Many of these were influenced by Greek philosophy. The Greeks placed a high value on human reason, that eventually it would win out over human passions. But the Jewish scriptures, and their NT offshoots, voice a different, more practical view: though it has been God's desire for all to be saved, even among the most rational creatures who have all pertinent information there will be some who choose self over God. They are the outliers that appear when any choice is given. (And God's good is that there be choice.) Milton described that extreme temperament, "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

[@akritas1453]

Amazon has the book @$55… Is that a realistic price point?

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

its self published. so thats to be expected. he is selling an ebook version for $10. but there are better works on universalism or similar. i suspect there are some deals on logos/verbum. i would not personally purchase the book.

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@HenryLeslieGraham Hey friend, the book is not self-published. Wipf and Stock has a standard rate they charge based on the number of pages, as do many publishers. Academic books are usually 50$+.

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophy i did not see the W&S name on the amazon page but that makes more sense. i was going off the price my aunt has set for her books which are in the 30-40£ rage because they are self published. but obviously a prestigious academic publisher would have a standard rate for academic works! well done on getting published by them

[@TheBiggestJesus]

Good discussion. I'm going to check out that book. Yes, "hopeful universalism" just sounds so weak, because it is. I'm a very confident "universalist" (a term I don't care for since it can include many non-scriptural ideas). I'm a confident in the salvation of all because it is fully dependent on God and Christ, and has already been secured by the work of God and Christ 2000 years ago by His death and resurrection. Jesus finished the work He was given to do (John 17:4,19:30). Part of that work was the saving of the world, which includes those who repudiate Him, John 12:46-48, I have come into the world a Light, that everyone who is believing in Me should not be remaining in darkness. 47 "And if ever anyone should be hearing My declarations and not be maintaining them, I am not judging him, for I came not that I should be judging the world, but that I should be saving the world. 48 He who is repudiating Me and not getting My declarations, has that which is judging him; the word which I speak, that will be judging him in the last day The culmination of God's and Christ's work will be the glorious "All in all" (1 Cor 15:28). *God Saved the Whole World, Including You, Through Jesus 2000 Years Ago* kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJalen2wf7t8haM

[@dashcamacademy6457]

me too, amen!

[@ludwig2573]

What about this verse? «And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.» ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10;28‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@ludwig2573 The entirety of Chapter 8 is about that verse and how it doesn’t prove annihilationism

[@iwansaputra1890]

thankfully we have st jerome.

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@iwansaputra1890 He teaches universalism in his Commentary to Ephesians and in Chapter 10 I engage with his later writings showing how he never denounced it.

[@ludwig2573]

«“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.» ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7;13‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@ludwig2573 Do you think that teaches annihilationism?

[@CatholicSplaining101]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophyBoth the Church and Scriptures teach ECT. *Revelation 20:10* “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There *they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”* *Matthew 25:41* “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the *eternal fire* prepared for the devil and his angels.” *Council of Florence* “Finally, unless they repent from their hearts, perform deeds worthy of repentance and make worthy satisfaction to your holiness and the universal church for the enormity of their sins, may they be thrust with the wicked into the everlasting darkness, *doomed by the just judgment of God to eternal torments.”*

[@isaacOfNiniveh]

@@CatholicSplaining101 Your comment begs the question in two ways: 1. You have not engaged in Hunter's extensive scriptural case for universalism. 2. You cited the Council of Florence, which is irrelevant to him, as he is Orthodox, not Catholic.

[@ludwig2573]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophy destruction doesn’t mean annhilation but it doesn’t mean correction either

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

​@@ludwig2573 Don't both concepts in practice mean the same?

[@TheBrunarr]

Im surprised he didn't talk about anathemas 7 and 9 of the synod of constantinople in 543

[@bman5257]

The evidence suggests those canons were interpolated.

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@TheBrunarr I discuss 543 in some detail since it is very relevant to the Palestinian drama. Read Chapter 10.

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@bman5257I disagree. See Chapter 10.

[@dashcamacademy6457]

cause it's a nothing burger - appended anethemas not even discussed in the sessions, condemning a odd manifestation of 6th century Originism not universalism

[@APerson-d5s]

Suan, are you a universalist?

[@Name-hw3oc]

@32:40 !

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

He is not. (I’m Hunter btw). He told me that he is a hopeful universalist and leans infernalist

[@APerson-d5s]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophy Thanks! Question, what if someone in full knowledge refuses God's grace? Are they just in like a purgatory state "forever" but they are not in hell?

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@ Thanks for the question. I address this in my book in Chapter 13 and in another way in Chapter 14 but briefly, I categorically reject that anyone in a state of perfect knowledge could reject God. I find that epistemically impossible.

[@APerson-d5s]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophy Thanks!

[@koffeeblack5717]

Presumption is a sin against the Holy Spirit, so our universalism may never be confident. But I think a Balthasarian hopeful universalism is licit and nourishes charity.

[@dashcamacademy6457]

a presumption that hope cannot be confident is a sin as well, on that basis....

[@Michael-gx6mi]

​@@dashcamacademy6457Nonsense, it is presumptious to assume God's judgement whenever there are clear public divine revelation to the contrary to universalism

[@joachim847]

I don't like "confident" versus "hopeful", but those are the labels 🤷 It makes me think of what St. Paul says about Christian hope: We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope; and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. "I hope" doesn't mean what it once did. That verse also sounds like a warning that Universalism without Orthodoxy is foolish, and I wonder at the wisdom of _not openly teaching universalism._

[@koffeeblack5717]

@@dashcamacademy6457 The sin of presumption is a technical theological concept and does not mean that any presumption is a sin. If your hope is confident without being presumptuous then perhaps we do not even disagree and you are simply quibbling with semantics. I have no interest in debating semantics. It is clear enough that some confident universalists do in fact presume that all will be saved. They treat universal salvation as theologically certain. I'm thinking in particular of David Bentley Hart and his camp. If, however, by "confident" you simply mean joyously and strongly hopeful, then you are not in their camp and you mean something idiosyncratic by the term.

[@koffeeblack5717]

@@joachim847 I suspect your view is actually close to mine. True hope is inseparable from faith infused by charity. But this state of the virtuous does not imply a doctrine. The virtuous hears in the depth of their soul what God told Julian of Norwich :"All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well". This personal infused knowledge is not a rational deduction or a theological certainty, but an illumination of a mystery, and so must remain somewhat open-ended and, well, mysterious. Our efforts to grasp a proposition or set of propositions from the deposit of revelation about this matter are spiritually stultifying at best. We grow when, in humility, we let go of the need to know and trust God's mercy.

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

i really don't understand why people (like dogs to vomit) keep circling the drain of universalism. it NEVER ends welll.

[@dissatisfiedphilosophy]

@@HenryLeslieGraham The same “drain” that many Holy Fathers of the Church circled? (See the Introduction and Chapters 5 and 10). Why can’t you offer a substantial criticism of what I said or ask a question like other comments?

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

@@dissatisfiedphilosophy with all due respect it is highly unusual for the person being interviewed to hang around the comment section of another person's video. furthermore the comment section is that. a comment section. it's purpose is to offer a place for people to comment. I am neither expected nor obliged to offer serious critique or a question. i for one am tired of people "rediscovering" lost doctrines, lost opinions, or trying to revivify old heresies, rehashed heresies, mishmashed heresies, mishmashed doctrines, speculative theology, and vain speculations, etc. Maybe God will somehow even save the Devil. but that is NOT for us to speculate. and that is my opinion. i am free to express it. you may or may not like it. YMMV. but importantly im not here to start a long conversation with you or the uploader. which is why i gave my opinion and not a question.

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

furthermore because of your age i would be a bit more circumspect about your level of understanding and knowledge. you may have read more than I and you probably have. but as your amazon page tells me, we have similar qualifications. and even if i had the same beliefs, i would very much hesitate from trying to prove universalism until i was working on at least my second doctorate/or i had 20 years of academic progress behind my belt. that is to say, 1) stop trying to get us to read your book. 2) ease off on the gas (ego). 3) recognise you are not yet a thought leader on this topic and may indeed misunderstand a great deal. 4) youtube comment section is not the space for academic "discussions".

[@wierdpocket]

@@HenryLeslieGraham This a weird, insecure sounding take. It's not unusual at all for anyone to be "in the comment section," as if it's some sacred ground that only non-video participants can tread. This is just a place where people discuss. If anything, it's a sign of passion and interest that the interviewee is chilling here, offering us any feedback. Also your ageism is uncharitable and unmerited.

[@CatholicSplaining101]

@@wierdpocket Both the Church and Scriptures teach ECT. *Revelation 20:10* “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There *they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”* *Matthew 25:41* “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the *eternal fire* prepared for the devil and his angels.” *Council of Florence* “Finally, unless they repent from their hearts, perform deeds worthy of repentance and make worthy satisfaction to your holiness and the universal church for the enormity of their sins, may they be thrust with the wicked into the everlasting darkness, *doomed by the just judgment of God to eternal torments.”*

[@bonniegadsden9097]

Ignore those who say everyone will be saved. This is a trap of Satan so that we won't struggle. St. Paisios of Mount Athos

[@atanas-nikolov]

The story is told by Archimandrite Sophrony on page 48 of his book, St. Silouan the Athonite. I remember a conversation between [Silouan] and a certain hermit who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’ Obviously upset, [Silouan] said, ‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there you looked down and saw someone burning in hell-fire - would you feel happy?’ ‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit. [Silouan] answered him in a sorrowful countenance: ‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’

[@matiasgonzalez5053]

Saddly, it is often the case that there's no being on earth more self righteous than monks.