Analyzing Commander's Most Controversial Cards

[@erichunt1974]

I think we can all agree that Krenko, Mob Boss is a 4 mana 3/3 who can be tapped to create a 1/1 goblin creature token for every goblin creature his owner controls.

[@geofferiswheel]

I absolutely agree

[@fakename8030]

Nah

[@froghermit9852]

No

[@hellothere-us7iw]

Even him alone with a sting if not responded. Hahaha

[@corruptcobalt6492]

What color is the 1/1 goblin token?

[@canoli62]

I think its important to note for Ink Shield, you cast it BEFORE the declare blockers step (unless you don't have potential blockers). That way if they are going to respond to it at instant speed, you can still assign blockers later. You should never be taking the hit because you waited too long.

[@cherrylime9540]

Yeah I was confused when they said that

[@jamesloder8652]

​@cherrylime9540 they literally immediately corrected it

[@alexcielvieira3548]

I like Maze of Ith in decks where the commander needs to attack to trigger, but sometimes you can't reliably attack due to blockers. Very much the same as Reconnaissance.

[@iamnotcameron]

Wanted one for years, and Omo was the reason I finally pulled the trigger.

[@maxkline6876]

reconnaissance is an awesome insurance policy if you don't want thinks to die on combat

[@spic9h592]

Yep. Master Multiplied is a great example of a commander that really wants Maze.

[@alexcielvieira3548]

I stuck one in an upgrade for Creative Energy precon, recently.

[@alexcielvieira3548]

Also, had one in Narset, Enlightened Master at one point.

[@charliemarlow647]

Bounce lands I'm extremely high on! As taplands go, they're amongst the best, helping to colour fix and having the very real advantage of being two land drops in one, effectively giving you an extra land in your hand. Combine that with the extra synergies they have (like bouncing your MDFCs and channel lands, working great with untappers, and giving you a good way to go over 7 cards in hand to discard a reanimation target) and you have a really good land! One of my favourite things to do is to bounce themselves back to your hand in landfall decks.

[@Ornithopter470]

There's a reason that they get played in modern

[@szadec2375]

My council of jace deck runs orrery and leyline cause it plays every terrible card it can with jace in the art and the flash makes a lot of em good enough sacrificing power to flavor lol

[@lucasnjtube]

To me, Feed the Swarm is clutch when you don't have access to better enchantment answers.

[@RoflCannon6]

It has lots of versatility since it hits either a creature or an enchantment. Having options is always good.

[@CameronSMoore]

Feed the swarm is a bad card…that I am currently running in all of my rakdos/mono black decks. Bad answers are better then no answers!

[@orcorganics6298]

It's the best enchantment removal in mono black

[@Slynch25]

To me, the sky is blue and water is wet.

[@lucasnjtube]

@@Slynch25 touche.

[@totakekeslider3835]

Black Market Connections is probably my favorite black card, but funnily enough, I can’t stand Phyrexian Arena lol. The treasure means all the difference in the world because it’s also ramp, not just card draw, and that over three turns this was basically free. The option late to only get the treasure has come in clutch so many times. How many situations have you been in where you’re like “ahhh, I’m one land short!”? Also the shapeshifter is a nice bonus in life gain and/or token decks like Tatsunari or Beledros Witherbloom. It’s just so much value stapled to one card!

[@reesercliff]

Arcane denial is really funny if your commander has "this spell cannot be countered" on it like surrack dragonclaw or using caverns of soul. Because you can hold priority and target your own spell with arcane denial it will still resolve even if the spell can't be countered and you will draw 3 cards!! Lol probably not the best use but its a good way to get a good laugh in your playgroup

[@DracoX-hz3tu]

I don't think I'd ever play arcane denial as a normal counterspell, but I love the idea of using it this way 😂

[@AwkwardKyle]

I really like Arcane Denial in group hug and Nekusar

[@carlosfandinosoto8506]

I don't think you can do that. If the spell is uncounterable then It's not a valid target for Arcane Denial to go on the stack. Counters can't be casted if there are no valid spells to counter.

[@Kazz1187]

@@carlosfandinosoto8506spells that cannot be countered can still be targeted by “Counterspells.” Only the countering of the uncounterable spell would not go through

[@katesperinck1401]

@@carlosfandinosoto8506 you can always cast counter spells on things that "can't be countered" as it's still a valid target, it just won't be countered when it resolves.

[@Original-Yellow]

I think Temple is amazing if you run 36+lands and the mdfc lands. 35 or less your gambling too much. But i love the card. I love most of these cards actually lol

[@nathanseverson-baker3412]

Like, 36 lands + mdfc’s or 36 lands including mdfc’s? Cause I can only endorse one of these lol

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@@nathanseverson-baker3412 36 plus mdfcs should be the base if you have enough card draw, at least if you're not playing cEdh. You miss a _lot_ less land drops that way compared to 36 lands, _especially_ when that 36 number includes mdfcs.

[@nathanseverson-baker3412]

@@lVideoWatcherl oh I totally agree- my default is 40 lands including mdfc’s

[@jameslamb4846]

People should be running at least 36 land and like 6 ramp spells and it's super reliable

[@geek593]

38 and it's not negotiable. Even then I'd play bounces before Temple.

[@gimistesista]

Personal rule: I play Temple of the false god only in green decks with at least 37-38 lands. You can ramp and get to 5 lands pretty quickly. I play it in my Pantlaza deck and it has never disappointed me.

[@paulszki]

This is the way. If you land ramp (instead of signets and talismans) and you're in like two colors (one of them green obviously), temple is very solid include.

[@matthewanderson3261]

These nerds be nitpicking.

[@NitpickingNerds]

What, us???

[@brendans1983]

Mia's argument why Withering Torment is not worth playing next to her argument why she plays Chaos Warp are interesting.

[@Shimatzu95]

Sure is, usually people lean into one direction with these kind of takes but i guess they try to bait comments for interaction.

[@maxmazza2987]

To be fair, Torment only opens up one permanent type for removal (outside black's color pie slice, normally) whereas Warp hits anything.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

I recently put Temple of the False God into my Duggan deck that has a chock-full of lands and spells that find lands, and I've been pretty happy with it so far. The key for me is to treat it as an expensive mana rock that refunds the mana if I play it instead of as a land. If it's in my opener while I'm deciding mulligans, I'm not counting it as a land. If I draw into it when I can't tap it for mana and then struggle for mana afterwards, I more likely than not wasn't playing that hypothetical rock in the first place. Meanwhile, my Karlov deck has a restraining order against Temple of the False God because ain't no way I can reliably turn it on in a reasonable time frame. I also run Maze of Ith in Duggan (also treating it as a spell) because it also doubles as pseudo-vigilance and always allows Duggan to attack safely no matter what. Honestly wondering if I should put it into Karlov as well for 0-mana pseudo-vigilance.

[@xsenit]

feed the swarm is a great card never heard someone say its bad, its a staple. amazing in mono black and rakdos and even golgari

[@bigboi2724]

In Golgari there are far better picks like beast within or assassin's trophy

[@PirateMaster45]

Golgari has much better options than Feed the Swarm. I'd only play it in mono-black and Rakdos decks

[@spudster8887]

Its only a staple in rakdos and mono red. Its sorcery speed, thats not good. You only play it when you have no other good ways to popping enchantments. Golgari doesn't need that

[@enso8379]

I know its been said, but golgari has a ton of answers for enchantments that are just better. I'd only use this in Mono Black, Rakdos, or Dimir where there just isn't a lot of answers for enchantments.

[@destinyhero]

Rakdos and Dimir need it, Golgari should have better options

[@DaGraveCrowder]

I think Feed the Swarm exists mostly because of Rest in Peace

[@equos5060]

AMEN

[@palace_gaming2256]

Good point never thought of that

[@joshbowdish9851]

Username checks out

[@ethanhughes3515]

I think arcane denial is better in most cases but has a feel bad moment normal counterspell do not. I completely agree with the math but when you are countering the player who is ahead giving them extra resources feels bad even if you don’t lose as much in the tradeoff. So most of the time (early - mid game) it is great and prevents another player running away with the game while you solve a problem for the table. In an archenemy situation though it is less useful.

[@Jerhevon]

I love Arcane Denial, I'm more apt to skip it because my normal urge is to cycle it for a card ASAP over trying to save it to defend my board in a critical situation. And I know I'm misplaying it like this.

[@michaelcollins4534]

In my experience it's a slightly easier to cast counterspell that draws your new nemesis two cards because they're still mad you countered their thing

[@thisisthelukas]

Both Feed the Swarm and Withering Torment are in my Chainer deck. Mono black having removal answers is key! :) Also I love that Arcane Denial gets weaker the more casual your pod is, haha.

[@ln5425]

Withering Torment or Feed the Swarm? I’ll just have to run both in mono-black decks.

[@sabomusicllc8165]

Maze of ith is great for keeping voltron at bay

[@NitpickingNerds]

Can be a hard counter in certain games

[@andyblakeley4575]

Maze is definitely a deck by deck bases kind of land. Definitely not something for every deck.

[@zanderfus2723]

Wait untill bro finds out about interaction

[@michaelcollins4534]

​@@UnreasonableOpinions I run it in my delina wild mage and Phelia exuberant shepard decks for that exact reason

[@Tuchpi]

How is voltron swinging at a table with maze of ith without hexproof and or shroud on it

[@seanmuhlenkamp4823]

Temple works so well in my 2 color blue decks. Drawing cards makes this card work!

[@greatbrandini3967]

It was only covered briefly, but color hosers are even better in commander than in other formats because you're more likely to have an opponent who's going to have those colors. A card that's similar to Compost that I love to run is Reap. G1 for an instant that Regrowths for each black permanent target opponent controls as you cast it. Black is one of the most popular colors in Commander. Even if you don't run into a black deck, Field of the Dead zombies, Germ tokens from living weapons, and Pests are common enough that it's very rare to be unable to get any cards off of it, while the upside could be a 2 mana, draw your graveyard. As for R.E.B and Pyroblast, you'll almost always have a good target for it in the form of enemy commanders

[@Jerhevon]

Hear hear for Reap.

[@billyhardin7401]

Something about your guys opinion always has me relooking at old decks in a new way. It’s really refreshing and videos like this make me realize I could be running a lot more fun cards in my lower powered games thanks 😊

[@biglove9374]

Mono Black - Feed the swarm and withering torment are must includes! cant have enough direct removal in black and there are so many enchantments that cripple black strategies

[@lCaptainCanaryl]

My Roxanne deck loves Helm of the Host. She’s a Titan trigger, so immediate ETB trigger, and you can also get the Attack trigger due to Haste. Wulfgar doubles that, Parallel Lives doubles the clone creation, Panharmonicon doubles the ETB trigger. That’s already giving you 2 mana for the rest of the game sans removal. Having Amulet of Vigor on board makes that immediate. The card combos with Roxanne and the rest of the deck really well. The clone is also a token, so again, we’re comboing insanely well with Second Harvest.

[@invisiblediscos9412]

I can mostly agree with your analysis of withering torment(wt) but I think if you're willing to play beast within or generous gift then wt should be slotted in. Rakdos colors is starved for this particular pie break

[@michaelcollins4534]

If you're in green or white you would never even consider withering torment because those colors are absolutely overflowing with enchantment answers

[@invisiblediscos9412]

@@michaelcollins4534 exactly

[@timothygerbig875]

The hidden mode on Arcane Denial is in spell slinger decks, when you get down to a dead card and Arcane Denial, you can counter your own spell to draw 3 at the next upkeep. It's kinda like cycling 2 and getting a bonus card for free, but it also hits cast triggers.

[@nobodyxiii3792]

With stella lee copying arcane denial is a 2 mana draw 6 cards

[@styckykeys2200]

I don't see what the obsession with getting the cards right now is. If you play phyrexian arena on turn 3 are you really going to NEED whatever card you draw on turn 3? You can't even play those cards right away anyways since you have no mana. Most casual decks are midrange engines that would prefer value over speed. Phyrexian arena sucks if you draw it late but that's the price you pay for value. cEDH decks are more aggressive, so I can see why a higher power player would disagree Arcane denial has the problem of being really bad at stopping the archenemy. If one player gets ahead early, arcane denial won't stop them. It's really fun when the players are all even though

[@zanderfus2723]

A) Access to more cards is very good B) phyrexian arena is probably best when you're in topdeck mode late C) you can have cheap cards too D) actually good take about denial

[@DracoX-hz3tu]

Phyrexian arena is pretty good early game, but it is damn near useless late game, where as the myriad of immediate draw spells in black will also be good early but will be so much better late when you need cards now. I do agree with your take on arcane denial, there's also just so many good counters that don't give your opponent 2 cards that I'd never play arcane denial

[@Bedni87]

I did math for temple of the false God. let's check if it's problematic in starting hand. lets asume we kept 7 cards with 3 lands including temple. now we need to find 2 lands for it to be actively played (having 5 lands) on t5. that is 4 draws, (because we need those 2 extra lands on t4 already) from 93 cards, where 32 lands left and we need to hit at least 2. Chance for such thing is 42.7%. that means rest of the time 57.3% we will play temple on t3 or t4 as a non mana land

[@Zanzibawrr]

also, the trick with tempt with discovery is that it gets exponentially better when you copy it. usually when opponents get 1 land and u get 4 they don't tend to be tempted, but when the offer is 2 lands they seem to forget that you are actually getting 8. it's wild

[@Shawn-f3x]

I seldom need to even go that far. Get just one opponent to crack, and you’ll almost always get the others, in my experience. I’ve offered a couple turns attack immunity to get the person behind to accept, and even against their better judgment (and saying so), the other two almost always give in, with one holdout once in a great great while. It’s like every table always having a ninny who won’t pay their taxes, honestly. The only downside is you occasionally get a Green ramp-despiser, who’d rather go down in flames “for the principle of the matter,” than give a Green player more lands.

[@elijahwalker323]

So I think the reason that flash in blue is really good is because, one you already want to be holding up mana, counters and your flash stuff, but if you are holding up mana for a counter and don't end up using it on a turn cycle, then having something that is a permanent or sorcery with flash is the bomb, I know you can plan for this by putting in a lot of instant/flash speed cards, but a lot of them are kind of below rate and can only do so much. But if I have instant speed on anything spell, then I feel comfortable drawing and passing. Because no matter what I can do something useful, be it an instant speed spell anyways, or some cool spell I can flash out before my turn.

[@chancedavis7529]

The issue i have with temple of the false God is that if your on a budget you have to have out of budget cards to make it work like urborg or gaea. At that point why not just run ancient tomb. People have mentioned dead cards in your opening hand but dead lands are way worse I would rather play a bounce land yes there is a tempo hit but a land that dose stone nothing feels really bad. What till I ramp so I can ramp more cards.

[@Aniphx]

Some cards you swear by, some cards you swear at.

[@NitpickingNerds]

If this becomes a series that’s a frontrunner for tagline

[@Aniphx]

@@NitpickingNerds That would be amazing!

[@brendans1983]

They are the same card 🍻

[@garagavia]

Temple of the False God is a good combo with Kodama's Reach. If you can cast Kodama's Reach, you can play Temple on turn 4 and have it tap for 2 every time. Of course Kodama's isn't the fastest card out there, but I've started playing it more recently. It is good because it does not feel very threatening, but sets up your game plan quite well.

[@matthewschwartz6486]

My LGS does a Sealed Box Commander league. In the first session, you open a draft/play box of something that is or was in standard at some point, build a legal commander deck using only basics and the cards you opened, and play games for points (there's a scoreboard). In future sessions (5 total) you add 6 more packs from another standard/previously standard set that you haven't chosen yet. I started with OG Dominaria because I wanted a bunch of commander options, and managed to open a Helm as well. Let me tell you, that thing takes Shalai, Voice of Plenty from "annoying that we have to remove her first" to "well great we just can't target you at all." Very fun in the right places, but it's a terrible rate for sure. My favorite use for it though is in my deck led by Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist. Helm triggers even if it's not attached to something, so if you go to combat and put Ardenn's trigger first, you can equip Helm to the best creature on the board in time for it to see that creature and give you a copy.

[@Dskinny23]

A lot of these come down to a deck by deck basis. They also come down to your personal meta. Temple works great in a lot of my games in specific decks. Our games tend to run on the longer end. So I need some lucky "ramp" around, turn 5 or 6 mid game. Then I need max mana in the late game. I love feed the swarm once again it's deck by deck. If I'm playing a graveyard deck, then my biggest fear is rest in peace, so feed the swarm will he in my deck likely along with the new one also. Burnished heart has become deck specific. If I want an art creature, then I might look at it but seldom do. A lot of the fringe ramp has been nerfed, in my opinion, because the medallions are super cheap. I can put them in every deck darn near. Bounce lands are deck by deck for sure. Helm of the host is awesome when you can move equip. Inventory management is my best friend for fun artifacts. Pir's Whim is the goat it's so fun, glad you guys turned me on to that one.

[@valun360]

Veil of Summer is super important in my higher power, non blue decks. It protects wincons or engine pieces in a way that no one other card does. And it cantrips!

[@charliemarlow647]

As someone who's played a lot of Vedalken Orrery, I can confidently say it's very good in instant-heavy decks. One of the main weaknesses of a deck like that is not having opportunities or situations arise where you want to cast your instants and losing tempo as a result. Orrery gives you the backup option of developing your board with any non-instant cards. The other type of deck it works particularly well in is a big mana deck. It makes the casting cost much easier to stomach, and means that you can get more advantage out of it by the mana you have available to utilise your cards with it. Overall, my opinion is that it's a great card, but not for every deck :)

[@d.a.d.-ohgosh]

Alright. Hear me out. I've recently changed my mind on Strix Serenade from being hot trash to playable. The comparison to Rapid Hybridization and Resculpt is pretty good. This is a timing restricted but more versatile version of those cards. Remember that a notable amount of threatening creatures are worth countering as opposed to removing (ex. Craterhoof). I think Strix Serenade is good in any color combo it can be in within Temur because Red is okay at dealing with creatures at best, Blue struggles to deal with anything on board in general which is why I think Counterspell is particularly good in Mono Blue, and Green is just not good at dealing with creatures at all (I know fight effects exist but that doesn't make Green good at creature removal). All I can say is try Strix Serenade in Mono Blue, Izzet, and/or Temur.

[@safertobeanonymous2224]

Maze of Ith you miss its most powerful aspect. “Ok he will just maze my guy so I’ll just attack someone else” the threat of the maze often means you just don’t use it and your opponents will just each not attack you while it’s out.

[@weightlossmed]

I've seen the same thing with Soul Snare. I had a game recently where, when it hit the battlefield everyone made fun of it. Too expensive (mana) and clearly telling everyone what you're going to do. (Why not use a Swords-to-Plowshares or Path-to-Exile instead?). By the end of the game, I had won, and the Soul Snare was a key reason. All three other players relied too heavily on their commander for their win-con. As a result, they simply wouldn't attack me. I raved about Soul Snare at the end of the good game.

[@jaysnow701]

Is it only odd to me, they did inkshield and vedalken orrery back to back and did not talk about how well THEY go together. Inkshield is tough because holding up the 5 mana is telegraphing. If only you had a way to hold up all your mana but not waste it by flashing in your sorcery speed plays before your turn.

[@ericsanchz]

I don’t know how temple can ever be bad if you’re running at least like 37+ lands and running enough card draw. I mulligan any starting hands with it and it works just fine

[@geek593]

If you need to mull away a card it's not a good card.

[@ericsanchz]

@@geek593that is true I suppose…but I’d also mull away a starting hand with an expensive win con(craterhoof, torment of hail, Rise of the dark etc)

[@thebobbybabbitt7703]

@@geek593lol that’s just not true. Cards are situational. If you start with a Cabal Coffers and two forests in a Gplgari deck, you’d mulligan. If you start with an Ancient Tomb and no colored lands in hand, you’d mulligan.

[@davidreeves4165]

​@geek593 that was a ridiculous statement. Tell us more sensei 😅

[@davidreeves4165]

​@@ericsanchzno that is not true. Don't fall for that troll statement

[@dariuszwawrzyniak3465]

Maze has been absolutely amazing for me. Often makes hits from the entire table go another way and there usually is a spot when you don't have a land drop and can play it with minimal downside. I also play a lot of Expedition Maps/Sylvan Scrying so there is additional upside that if I don't need lands I can always grab this in the late game.

[@weightlossmed]

Vedalken Orrery makes Mutate mechanic interesting. Suddenly, instant-speed targeted removal via mutate mechanic is viable. For example, you have one of the following on the board: Chittering Harvester, Dirge Bat, Gemrazer, Illuna Apex of Wishes, Sawtusk Demolisher. You have one untapped black mana source and maybe Zagoth Mamba in your hand. By mutating at instant speed, you surprisingly remove opponent's threat through mutating the creature that's already on the board. Fun, unexpected, silly, effective.

[@comfortingpain]

One thing you guys didn't mention with Maze of Ith is the benefit of using it on your own creatures that have huge attack triggers but you don't want them being blocked/damaged etc. Gives you the attack trigger without the danger of actually attacking, similar to Reconnaissance.

[@darthwhit]

I love Maze of Ith. It's one of my favorite cards. A lot of folks don't play with much land removal. By having it on the board, a lot of folks decide to attack someone else instead of having their creature get turned back. I can also use it on my own creature if someone surprises me with something and I can prevent something from happening to one of my creatures.

[@Tyabann]

Strix Serenade's ability to answer commanders before they enter play is really underrated

[@NitpickingNerds]

That’s definitely an upside against nonsense like new Etali

[@sir_quirkus7206]

its amazing for my play group. super creature heavy meta and strix just wrecks

[@jordanlarson8310]

Not to mention there are a lot of game breaking combos for artifacts and it's a 1 mana stop your opponents One Ring if that's something you see a lot

[@zanderfus2723]

Bro has never played counterspell before omg

[@martinheraud1744]

​@@NitpickingNerdsI agree but I think in that case stifle can be as useful and more versatile

[@Tm00ne]

If you usually target creatures you don't control with Maze of Ith, you are playing it in a wrong deck.

[@henriquefreitas1916]

I'll give three reasons to run REB/pyroblast in commander IN MONO RED (non CEDH scenario) 1. if you're running on a pod without blue (which I hardly doubt it, but already happened to me) it can be used for looting without losing a relevant card for it. The hardest thing to deal with on drawing in R is: you tend to run looting or impulse draws and you don't wanna lose card x or y and you have to; have a spare for this is interesting on this point of view; 2. it's one of the ways for R deal with blue enchantments without using lattice/liquimetal torque/liquimetal coating - typically you want to remove some permanents transforming them in artifacts and blasting it easily with one or two mana, but you get dependant on an artifact on the board; 3. it can protect your big bad evil red spell from a counter - it's a cool move, but tbh is the least used one in a non CEDH IMHO

[@danielrazo450]

"Strix Serenade is bad because there's not a lot of creature I'd like to counter in commander" WHAT ABOUT COMMANDERS???? STRIX SERENADE COUNTER ANY COMMANDER FOR ONE MANA. You may debate if that's to mean for low level game, and maybe is not an autoinclude in any blue deck, but negating a commander against a deck that doesn't quite work without it is pretty great.

[@TroyLambert-b5c]

I am back again. Tempt with discovery becomes much more interesting as a way to make an alliance with the person next to you in the turn order. the descisions are made in turn order and if you enforce the rules on it, you can make the deal to not kill the last person in turn order until the end of the game if they take a land from their deck. 4 mana for urborg and cabal coffers is a good deal.

[@JetNAmplify]

veil of summer is probably fine tbh. all you really want is the "spells I cast this turn cant be countered line" red elemental blast is CEDH. agreed

[@Utenlok]

Leaving 5 mana up for Ink Shield and them deciding not to attack you is fine. Plus you still have Ink Shield.

[@andrewk1504]

Burnished Hart puts in heavy lifting in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck. The initial cost of 3 is true no matter what, but once I start recurring this, I'm forcing out two lands per turn for three mana, plus my land lay for the turn. Playing three lands per turn in Grixis colors is actually insane and I've won games off this card. This can start happening by turn 4. Recently I searched out EVERY basic land I had in my deck. The look of pure jealousy on my opponent's faces was priceless Helm of the Host comes in clutch in my Narset deck. Two Narsets can never be worse than one.

[@crawdaddy2004]

I don’t run Orrery in any deck, but I do run Leyline in Tuvasa. 1) It’s an enchantment and therefore draw a card when I cast it, and 2) Tuvasa says “each turn,” so it grants me three more draws per turn cycle.

[@burnsboy101]

11:54 that’s certainly a take of all time

[@yamiyami4278]

I still use Burnished Hart in my mono-red deck though, and it's been helpful so far. I only use Helm of the Host in my Equipment deck, and it's pretty easy to fire off the infinite combo with Combat Celebrant

[@EnordAreven]

I think a lot of these cards just remind me to play 2-3 colours as a way to get flexibility and to never need a few of these fringe cards

[@BrainSpew]

I used to despise bounce lands (I wouldn't even run them in my landfall deck), but with MDFCs and channels running about, and a few other new cards, I definitely have come to appreciate them! My take on Tempt with Discovery: 1.) Boring take- Group Hug (though Collective Voyage is way more fun! No one is ready for 10 mana on turn 3 and it's hilarious!). 2.) Spicier take- Why are you running it if you're not built to take advantage of it/capitalize on it properly? 4 mana for a key nonbasic isn't the greatest rate, but I've done worse for less. Living in fear of someone Strip Mine-ing your one key land? I'm actively surprised if someone isn't ready to ruin my fun when my Valakut or FotD touches the table...and they should! Just get fetch Urza's Cave/Petrified Field recursion or redundancy Vesuva with it. If you have Crucible effects and they all got their one land-removing-land, at worst it was a Buried Alive that they had to waste removal to deal with. And if you didn't make my land drops it's right back. Again, this is all assuming this land is that strong in your deck...but if it is and you're already running some of these pieces its the same as Zenith-ing out a big threat. Can't live in fear of them exiling my Avacyn after I tutored for her or whatever. The rest: NO (Miss me with this): TotFG, Helm of the Host YES (I use these often or have these in a favorite deck): Arcane Denial, Inkshield, Burnished Hart, Stroke of Midnight, Generous Gift, Black Market Connections EH (Only in very specific builds under specific conditions): Vedalken Orrery, Diabolic Tutor, Maze of Ith, Strix Serenade, Color Hosers, Phyrexian Arena

[@jessianderson3959]

Withering Torment did alright in my newest pod. Not the greatest, not the worst. I like the instant speed and you never don't like seeing it, but 3 mana remival does suck. I was in Jund so i thought i might like the versitility, but i'll probably be swapping in a better green option. Arcane Denial is great, I'm actually a little surprised you didn't bring up the fact you can cast a bauble, & counter it in the stack with your own denial to draw 3 cards. (Pauper Pog) Bounce lands are also sorta nice for Boseiju & Ottawaras. They're also Combo pieces when paired with retreat to Coralheim & any way to replay them from hand.

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

Maze of Ith - I fall on the use side. It's not for every deck, but it's not bad early, as if someone drops a serra's ascendent, you can keep it off you, and it's great at manipulating your opponents into going into each other earlier. It's better than it seems, and honestly with yavimaya and Urborg, there are ways to get mana. Compass is a decent alternative. The effect matters. I don't have it in any of my three decks, but I would run it in my Rakdos deck if I had it. That kind of control is underappreciated. Phyrexian Arena - I run this card in my Gate deck. Honestly, it's not a high powered commander card, but in lower power levels, it's fantastic. Over a couple of turns it pays for itself, and gets you ahead. In my five color deck, it helps me smooth things over with the draws, and sets up combos with Niv later. If the deck was higher power, I think this would be cut, but that deck is a 5 on purpose. In those kind of decks they are great. Bounce Lands - in a world of temples and surveil lands, they are better than people realize. If you run enough ETB on lands or MFDCs, you love this effect, and are happy to abuse it. The downsides almost never come up, and it just sneaky gets you ahead. These keep getting better the more years pass.

[@mathieubrebouillet714]

i have a party deck, having a shapeshifter changeling option on black market connection really help completing the party at times

[@jontinoco8195]

Wait ... people think Inkshield is bad? That card is entwined Fog + Token generator for only 5 cmc. That's honestly a steal!

[@johnsay7216]

The fact that you have to keep 5 mana open to play it is the problem, which basically means you've practically skipped most of your turn (on Turns 4+) just to be able to play it on another player's turn, barring Smothering Tithe, of course. I mean, sure if your playgroup has 3+ hour games, then you can make an argument for it. But for faster playgroups, I think it's overrated.

[@jontinoco8195]

@@johnsay7216 not even close. usually Inkshield, as I've seen in the circles i've played in, is played as a win con again swing wide or big stompy. Holding up 5 mana in non blue is such a throw off for most, but if someone is going to win, it cuts them off and leave them wide open for a crack back. Our games don't last even close to that long either, it's just better usage of mana/card play so spending 5 mana isn't a huge problem.

[@joshbowdish9851]

i like to think of it as an extra turn spell. If I didn't have to cast it I still have an extra turn spell in my hand lol. It also has the upside of winning the game on it's own, so that's nice.

[@TVdeaddeylan]

I play veil of summer in my Cedh Yisan deck. Being able to stop counter spells is a very good niche for mono green and can just win you games.

[@garagavia]

Temple of the False God is good in the right deck, it's basically a free ramp spell on turn 3-5 depending on your amount of previous land ramp. It's great if your commander costs 6 mana.

[@Vance4543P]

My wife used to play cEDH Ezuri where you use maze of ith to create the infinite mana during combat and then use Ezuri's pump to win.

[@allannechio7368]

Temple of false god is good in landfall decks,with ramps spells

[@joshbowdish9851]

Vedalken Orrery completely changes the character of some cards. Your etb creatures can be played in response to their removal and such, the ability to not commit your mana is huge. Like imagine you can 1)set up or 2) cast your 7 mana bomb. At sorcery speed, casting the 7 mana bomb and passing is pretty bad, I'd default to doing some setup and passing. But at flash speed, you can do either. It lets greedy plays become safe plays. Plus I don't have to do any thinking on my turn, it's just draw, land, pass - whatchu gonna do? Love passing with all my mana up.

[@ben_clifford]

28:48 For colorless, we already have a couple of 3-mana 2/2s with flash that let us do this MUCH more effectively

[@lostinthewoods2201]

This is easy folks, if play green then include temple. The consistant ramp will ensure a steady stream of lands and like Mia said, if this is in your opening hand (7% of the time only btw) then it still isnt bad, its a landfall trigger, it is a card to discard, it is a card to guarantee value LATER.

[@ussgordoncaptain]

Red Elemental Blast and Veil of Summer are really good IF you are trying to combo, a lot of the color hate cards are pretty mediocre but the ability to win counter wars in non-blue is pretty nice. Also Carpet of flowers is a really really good color hate card that often makes 2+ mana/turn.

[@moonknight2865]

Feed the swarm is amazing is mono black and rakdos. The versatility and low cost is absolutely worth it but once my deck touches the other colors, fuck that. Lol I can all the best counter spells so i never think of arcane denial but i still think it’s okay.

[@ManicLink]

I'd be interested in what you think about ripples of undeath, I've been pretty impressed by it in gy decks

[@andrewsutherland1909]

I might have misheard but it sounds like you may have misread Inkshield based on your arguments against it. It doesn't need a bunch of creatures swinging at you to be effective as 1 10/10 coming your way will create 10 2/1s since it says for each damage prevented not each creature. I'm in a playgroup with frequent craterhoof like effects at the end of games (Combat meta) and having this card when 4-6 20 power creatures are coming my way is amazing.

[@zmichalo13]

Maze of Ith can basically operate as a second and significantly worse copy of reconnaissance. If you're running something like Kelsien where it can give you two taps of Kelsien or Satya where it gives you a safe way to get attack triggers, it's great.

[@kdchmln]

I like TotFG in my green decks where I’m running Pir’s Whim and Tempt with Discovery because I have a 6-drop Commander (Thantis and Esix for me). It comes out nicely on curve, doubles the mana I get from those two sorceries, and helps me cast my Commander a turn earlier than I would without it. It definitely doesn’t belong in all the decks that are running it, and I think this is absolutely an effect of including it in so many precons, which increases its prevalence in EDHREC’s data, which is a tool people use to build decks, which further increases its prevalence.

[@kdchmln]

And I like Burnished Hart in my mono-black reanimator deck. Gets me swamps, helps fuel Crypt Ghast and Cabal Coffers et al, sacrifices itself and triggers permanents when it dies. Sometime it starts out in my graveyard and I’m playing Reanimate and getting basically Explosive Vegetation in black, but even if I’m paying six mana to repeat that effect over and over again (with OG Chainer), I like it. It’s definitely not a good rate. Sword of the Animist is a much more efficient way to ramp in mono black. But that card makes less sense in my particular mono black deck.

[@kdchmln]

LOL just got to Tempt with Discovery. I like it in that 6-mana commander ramp package with Temple of the False God and Pir’s Whim. Go figure.

[@Npocommander]

In black, and black and red feed the swarm , withering torment, has advantages, like Rowan, scion of war which makes your spells cheaper, vilas, Brooker of blood, card draw, and mortarion, daemon primarch, makes 2/2s, and in black you can use helm of awakening and jet medallion to offset the cost of k'rrik, son of yawgmoth, and if you are worried about losing too much life add Gary, grey merchant of aspodel

[@Shimatzu95]

I'd argue there are less people playing either feed the swarm or withering torment, tha there are people playing both or neither

[@andygoody2599]

Temple of the False God is trash. Even in my landfall decks i never want to see it until the game has lasted too long. Turn 5 or more is slow enough that the game is 2 hours and i want to shuffle up not ramp.

[@alexliang1040]

In a niche case Maralen the Mornsong LOVES to be flashed out so you get the first tutor, grabbing opposition agent. Its one of my wincons in my scrappy hatebear Nalia deck

[@adkohler]

Like many cards in EDH, Temple of the False god is good in some decks and not others. Though I have taken it out of most of my decks, I still consider it in decks with lots of land-based ramp and/or MV 6+ commanders, and avoid it in decks with bounce lands.

[@noraandfranksmith9565]

Simith Groak Chamber T: Land ~ enters tapped unless you return a snake or frog to its owner’s hand. {T}: Add {U}{G}

[@christopherglenn5053]

Bounce lands make you discard a card to hand size unless you have something to cast beforehand. But that could be a benefit for some decks.

[@QuintessentialQue]

I think Vedalken Orrery, and cards like it are really good in decks that can either abuse powerful ETBs or decks like the new Commander is Duskmourn The Master of Keys, so you can escape powerful enchantments at flash speed. Other than that it's just a cool personal tech cards rather than a commander staple.

[@andygoody2599]

Arcane Denial is a GOATed Counterspell. It's the best Counterspell that costs mana, over even Mana Drain. You're animation of the card neutrality is the main reason. It's super budget. And it's also very splash-able unlike Mana Drain and OG Counterspell. Your can spend $40 for free counterspells or $1 for Arcane Denial. Think about it.

[@ericasimon8274]

Compost in The Wise Mothman is incredible, or any deck that makes your opponents mill. Also it's one of my pet cards, so I'll never tolerate Compost slander.

[@markkolodziej496]

I think my biggest problem with things like compost is that if you're opponent goes off with like a grave crawler + phyrexian alter, then you just get decked out

[@helfiswelf]

Agreed, pricey tutors stink, then you can’t cast what you tutored for. Braingeyser for 8 to refill my hand is better. Maze of ith however works for Kaalia and other creatures that give you things just for attacking rather than dealing damage.

[@aldotrioksidi]

Karoos have definitely increased in usefulness from back when, since when I started the game, everyone and their mothers were running Strip Mine at least and Karoos were the biggest targets for them, but nobody seems to play LD anymore aside from me, so they're better now.

[@LhynkalTheFool]

I've hardly played Burnished Hart in ~10 years even in artifact/sacrifice decks and it's due to curve, if the casting cost was 1 less I would consider it. Wayfarer's Bauble is an auto-include for my nongreen decks, but if it was 2 to cast and 1 for the effect I'd never touch it. Excluding other ramp if you could play Burnished Hart on 2 and sac it on 3 it would be faster than Explosive Vegetation(despite costing more overall) which is sweet for casual EDH, I hope they make a retrain which works that way.

[@paulrayhill5236]

I think if you play any amount of land ramp at all, even just a Wayfarer’s Bauble, in one or two color decks,Temple of the False God is worth it, and if you are playing 4+ forms of land ramp, it should be auto included.

[@Renigma1000]

compost is great in decks like Hansk, Slayer Zealot or Rendmaw, Creaking Nest which gives opponents black tokens. either that or field of the dead counterplay

[@TheEvilPinkOne]

Arcane denial is sometimes a draw three discard one spell that costs additional depending on what you discarded.

[@elijahwalker323]

I love the bounce lands, its draw a card, any white non green deck It is awesome because it makes your catch up ramp more commonly useful. Like turn 1 land maybe a 1 drop, turn 2 you drop another land and play a surveyors scope or another 2 drop, then you play a bounce land on your next turn and another of 2 drop or the surveyors scope, you are at 2 lands then on the player before you end step as long as none of the other players missed their land drop. best turn would be like 1 land, sol ring, surveors scope turn 1, then turn 2 you play your bounce land, then before your next turn you activate surveors scope and hopefully if you were last you just get 3 lands into play. also the other white catch up ramp.

[@geek593]

Bounces are overhated and underrated.

[@pinkertstupert653]

Maze of Ith is good in decks where you're relying on creatures with strong attack triggers. It lets you keep your creatures alive without dying to blockers.

[@RazgrizAce67]

When I would pay these: Temple of the False God - Never Feed the Swarm - Most non white/green decks, Withering Torment is better though Arcane Denial - Most blue decks Bounce Lands - Non green decks, landfall decks Inkshield - Never Vedalken Orrery - Only very specific decks Diabolic Tutor - Budget only Maze of Ith - Almost never Strix Serenade - Never Color hosers - Never Burnished Hart - Never Helm of the Host - Never Stroke of Midnight - Never, will play Generous Gift first Tempt with Discovery - Rarely Phyrexian Arena - Never, play Black Market Connections instead

[@tommieboi707]

Black market connection is great in a life gain type of deck. I have a mishra claimed by gix deck with a goblin theme. I will full send black market connections knowing that i will gain that life back. It is awesome in some decks.

[@Cobracon7]

15 years ago I had Temple in every deck, now it's in 2... Azusa and Purphoros... and the copy in Purphoros has been sharpies to make it an Acient Tomb because my Ancient Tomb is in Azusa...

[@Bdude909]

Regarding Compost, it will always have a home in my Daryl, Hunter of Walkers deck

[@zackbonno3675]

You guys should remake that video that was the best creature of each type because a lot of creature types actually got playable cards the last 2 years as well as new types being added and some even being removed.

[@dm507]

Strix serenade is good within a mono blue deck that just wants to counterspell everything and I imagine simic or azorious would like it against any aggro deck that needs to prevent a commander coming down. It's a win more/solidify win card.

[@ElvencloudYT]

I often arcane denial my own spell - storm triggers, a dead spell in my hand, etc - to filter for other answers.